Animal Rescue: petsPick (Game Over!)

[xvart]

I haven't seen this person in a long time, therefore:

VOTE: Sotty

I just got back from a pretty terrible day of traveling so don't expect anything else from me today. Plus I need to catch up in my other games.

[xvart]

VOTE: Roxi


I'm curious now.

This seems a little forced, with the preempt asking if we could vote Roxi and then doing so after it was suggested to try it under the pretense of being "curious".

Ahhh, I am torn so much on Quilford when I play him, I can not stand him and his play style 99% of the time legit. But he does this a lot regardless of alignment, maybe slightly more so as town. In saying that I will push him to actually explain his reads as he always skates by doing this.

C.E.S. Can you actually show us please? I am not really getting anything scummy on Quil. In fact, I would be more likely to examine the wagon on him for potential scum.

Something about these two posts reads scummy to me, but I can't quite put my finger on it. With the Quilford wagon sitting a L-4 at the time of this post and seemingly gathering speed it looks to me like a soft, ambiguous way to get on the wagon if it keeps getting more steam while also softly defending Quilford.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: jason

As long as we are calling scum teams on page three I'll go ahead and say jason, Quilford, and glowball.

[xvart]

He voted for jason.

Insta town points.

You couldn't post this before your exam when you were posting these two posts:

He voted for jason.

Insta town points.

well it's just that I'm about to sit an exam so

It had less words than both of the posts combined, plus Jason had not said anything game related at all at the time of Sotty's vote and your scum read on Jason.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Quilford

[xvart]

@xvart - what's your opinion of the lewarcher82 wagon?

I don't really have any feeling on it; I can appreciate the reasons why people are voting lewarcher and I think it is a decent page three wagon but I think the evidence against Quilford is more substantial at this point.

Well when I read what he said about my vote I thought it was pretty weak and silly really. If anything I think it was his way of agreeing with my gut vibes on Jason's first post. What I don't see is how quickly you build the bridge from silly to scummy. Quliford wasn't trying to say I'm confirmed town or anything, and it's not like it's a read that's locked in. From what I have seen of Quliford he does this kinda thing, it's a null tell. But you were all over it like it was a massive thing. I don't see it. I think you blew it up.

You're missing the point. I don't really care so much about the town read from a vote post. I care about the explanation after the fact that doesn't fit with the chronology, plus the pomp and circumstance that lead to him delaying the read to only say "she voted Jason so that is town". The explanation does not fit the behavior, and that is why I am voting Quilford.

I think VPB is reading things into xvart's vote that xvart never said; in fact xvart's reasoning was a real weak point about number of words and having enough time to post which seemed more charade than substance. I actually like Sotty's vote and I think Baltar is tilting at windmills.

"The number of words" may be sensationalized but the content of my post is absolutely clear. Upon being questioned specifically about his Sotty town read, Quilford came back and said "VP I'll get to you a bit". Then Quilford explained that he had an exam. Then, later, Quilford comes back with a big post with multiple reads, none of which are Sotty. Then when he gets questioned again about the Sotty town read he says "Sotty is town because she voted Jason". That sure is a lot of build up for something that is apparently so easily explained. Plus, at the time of the original vote on Jason he (Jason) had said nothing that would indicate alignment (unless not saying anything game related within the first 14 posts of the game is scummy) so how can Quilford possibly justify that Sotty RVS voting Jason is a town tell at all?

[xvart]

So let me get this straight, you're voting Quilford because he didn't further elaborate on his read of me, yes?

I'm voting Quilford because it appears that he got caught in a read that he didn't really have then provided a justification that has no basis in reality from the posts that had been made. Why does he think that your RVS vote on Jason makes you town based on Jason's first two posts within 14 posts of the game starting? If there was some history between the two of which I am unaware I think it would have already come out with the level of discussion those two have had in talking about previous games; otherwise it is a phoney bologna read trying to skate by under the guise of the real deal.

[xvart]

It was page one of the game. What more could

"Sotty reads town Vote: The same person she is voting"

mean other than Quilford also agreed with my initial gut scum read of Jason?

Expecting him to have a whole slew of reasons for an early game read outside this one thing, is pretty freaking mind blowing to me at this point.

So your vote on Jason here was not RVS but a "gut scum read"? I know gut reads are by definition hard to explain, but I have a hard time swallowing that you had a gut scum read on anyone based on one purely RVS post. Again, I don't really care about Quilford's vote. It is the lack of explanation when the explanation was supposedly so simple, plus the fact that anyone could have any sort of read on Jason based on his first post. Trying to explain that post as having any affiliation to alignment is ridiculous, and in this context, scummy.

posting to say I exist but not reading this game til tomorrow

It's tomorrow, and you're the only one not voting and neither is "roxi" so I'm assuming the vote belongs to you?

IDK... care to comment on this?

You can drop the charade. It is painfully obvious that you have the double vote based on 90% of your posting has been dancing around the double vote.

[xvart]

I told you the impression I got from the posts. You were fencesitting; it seemed you were defending him weakly on hand while looking for an excuse to hop on the wagon on the other.

I don't think it was "looking for an excuse to hop on the wagon" but rather "keeping the door open with the vagueness of how the behavior might also be scum".

So... I'm scummy for finding Jason's first post in this game scummy? Your logic is getting really poor here. Every single post has a bearing on a players alignment. Also why didn't you pick on this apparently scummy move from me when I first mentioned it?

I wasn't clear when I spoke about the context as I don't find you particularly scummy (outside of a very tenuous relationship with people I do find scummy). When I said "given the context, it is scummy" I was referring to Quilford's projection of your vote in the context of what had transpired at the time of his vote. I don't think you can argue that your post ever indicated anything outside of a typical RVS vote, so Quilford knowing you are town from your RVS looking vote post is invalid and scummy, especially since he delayed producing that information for so long.

My point on why Quilford is scummy is because he assigned several motives to a series of votes and comments that, from my perspective, had not basis in reality. Jason had made one post (completely RVS) at the time of your vote. Your vote was just a vote with no explanation. He says you are town because a vote on Jason is a town thing to do. The leap in logic to make that conclusion is ridiculous given the posts that had occurred and looks to me like an attempt to justify his town read after the fact

since there was absolutely no evidence, at the time of his town claim on you, to indicate either Jason or your alignment.

Second, I think xvart's been trying to prevent lewarcher82's lynch by trying two different counter-wagons since lewarcher82 has been at L-2 (on jasonT1981 and Quilford). Plus his arguments seem disingenuous. If we get a scum-flip, then we'll know who the partner is.

Disingenuous? Nah, I believe there to be more substantial evidence against Quilford than lewarcher.

lewarcher

- tell me your pet name (and someone please take him off of L-1 at least until then).

[xvart]

You're really reaching xvart.

How many posts have to happen before people are allowed for form reads?

It's not about the number of posts. It is solely about the context of those posts and the events that transpired afterwards. Let us look at the posts in question. There are only two so it will be easy. Jason's first post:

hello, everyone!

vote:xvart

for being the first persons name I saw when closing my eyes, and opening them again with player list in front of me!

No game related content at all. Pure RVS post and therefore unable to get any information about alignment (unless there is some meta of which I am unaware; but I think that would have been brought up by now).

Your post, five posts later:

Vote: Jason

You recently said that you had a gut read on Jason based on his one post. However, at the time of this post there was no publicly available information to suggest anything you had a gut scum read on Jason. Certainly not in the next five posts when Quilford claimed you town for your only post in the game which contained nothing other than a vote:

Anyway, here's the reads: Jason, scummy; lewarcher82, townish; KK, null; Sotty7, townish; VPB, null with a twist of scum.

So my point is that Quilford had absolutely no way to discern your alignment since the only thing you had said is "vote: jason". Then he went on to delay providing his explanation to VP, produced several other reads without providing explanation for your read, then came back and finally said "Sotty is town because she voted for Jason." Again, no available information to determine your alignment based on your one post; plus the delay of producing such an easy explanation.

And my reference to post size or word count or whatever can easily be summed up by looking at Quilford's posts in question:

VPB I'll get to you in about 9 hours.

well it's just that I'm about to sit an exam so

Compared to the easy explanation:

He voted for jason.

Insta town points.

The delay was because he called you town for no reason, got called out for it, and then had to fabricate some explanation since VP had been persistent about getting that read explanation. Otherwise, he would have said "Sotty is town for voting Jason. Instant town points" the first time around plus the added benefit that he came back to "explain" why he would be absent after VP voted him. Even the explanation he finally gave is questionable in terms of motive.

I'm sad to see that this has somehow been misconstrued into a xvart vs. Sotty debate because I have no opinion of your alignment either way at this juncture. At this point, without evidence to the contrary, I would be more likely to think that he called you town like that because he was scum buddying town because I don't see the benefit of scum buddying scum in the first 15 posts of the game.

---

What if your player has a cat AND a dog? You'll die and kill them too?

I think this question is ridiculous as I don't see anyone having two pets and there has been no evidence to suggest otherwise (except for maybe the Roxi voter).

I do think like Sotty said, Xvert is reaching. Many people post early reads (gut or otherwise) saying X is town, Y is scum just from the RVS and the fact he seems set on pushing Quil and Sotty on this is strange. I am keeping my vote on for now until he starts making sense and stops tunnelling this issue.

I'm not pushing Sotty as being scum. The only thing that I can see at this point is that might indicate that she is scum is because she got drawn into this by being the target of Quilford's unexplained town read, which I am slightly inclined to believe makes her town pending Quilford's scum flip.

how so? I am half a vig, half a flavour cop.

You're killing players based on whether the animal is a dog or a cat. I'd hope all of the scum weren't cats, that'd be a pretty silly set up.

and? who said all scum are cats???

NO ONE! That is the problem

Didn't you say that if you investigate a player and they are a cat, they die? How is that helpful to town, unless cats are scum? It's not, you'll just be killing off townies that have cats.

This is starting to sound more like a third party role of "kill X number of cats and you win". I'm trying to remember some MD thread I saw zoraster posting in about different roles or modified role usage because he may have thrown a few of those tweaked roles in. I'll see if I can find it because I think a modified SK/modified lyncher was discussed.

[xvart]

Limited access for until Friday afternoon. I should be able to get on each of the next two nights; but depending on activity levels I may not be able to post much. This is my last conference so after this stretch no more V/LA for the foreseeable future.

[xvart]

@xvart - if you had been around at the end of the day yesterday, would you have still had your vote on Quilford?

Most likely, yes. I was having a hard time processing the cat/dog vig thing as town but I certainly didn't think it was a scum role. I was still trying to dig around some of the MD threads to find where I thought I had seen some alternate role commentary on SK abilities. After the night hit I was able to find this lyncher relevant alternative wincon/abilities but nothing about SKers like I originally thought.

Jason

re: 482 - who do you suggest we lynch first within the connection?

I hate it when I agree with a wagon but the reasoning/people on the wagon are flawed. JasonT is making no sense which is making it hard for me to get behind this wagon.

Why do you agree with the wagon yet disagree with everyone else on the wagon? What is it about it that makes you

want

to support it?

[xvart]

Prod received. Post coming tonight.

[xvart]

I lost my post but I have to say that there is something fishy going on with Jason, LLamarble, and glowball. Whenever I read their love triangle I feel like at least one person, if not tow, are operating on more information than a town member should have at this point. The whole Jason pushing glowball while voting Llamarble looks to me like he is more convinced that the person he isn't voting is scum which doesn't work with where his vote actually is. Also, spilling over from my suspicions yesterday:

VOTE: Jason

I also think VPB is town.

[xvart]

I lost my post but I have to say that there is something fishy going on with Jason, LLamarble, and glowball. Whenever I read their love triangle I feel like at least one person, if not tow, are operating on more information than a town member should have at this point.

The whole Jason pushing glowball while voting Llamarble looks to me like he is more convinced that the person he isn't voting is scum which doesn't work with where his vote actually is

. Also, spilling over from my suspicions yesterday:

VOTE: Jason

I also think VPB is town.

See, thats the issue.... I can have more than one scum read I can push, but only have one vote.

But the problem I have is that you you are more focused on engaging the person who your vote isn't parked on. I get the feeling that this is one of those scenarios where you vote town, FoS scum buddy; and in this case you and your buddy can trade blows back and forth and it doesn't mean much because your vote is quietly sitting unengaged somewhere else. If I had to place a bet right now I would say glowball and Jason are scum buddies using Llamarble as a smoke screen to bus each other. Then, if Llamarble flips town Jason can readjust his read accordingly. I am always suspicious when someone is hammering away like you were doing to glowball with a vote parked somewhere else.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand, scum have a vested interest in appearing town; while town have the truth of their alignment allowing them to be more unconventional. In my opinion that's the way the site meta WIFOM wheel is turned and hence I have town reads on Amrun and CES despite not thinking much of their play in this game and have unsubstantiated issues with the players I mentioned before.

Actually, although counter intuitive to a degree, I can get behind this thinking from a theoretical standpoint but I'm not sure how it actually works out long term. I've said to a couple mods after being lynched that I should just flip my reads because nine times out of ten anyone I have built a case on and lobbied for lynching has flipped town. I don't think this is an alignment tell either way.

Not even sure we should lynch VP today considering I had a massive false positive on him in AMG.

Why are you just now bringing this up? Do you think your false positive in another game warrants everyone unvoting?

xvart actually has decent content when he chooses to show up, it's just that he makes my activity level look decent.

Yeah, I do need to apologize for my activity and it will be picking up. I have been having a hard time recently in large games just keeping afloat and unexpected things at work keep popping up and consuming my time making it even harder for me to keep the game straight when I do have time to read.

[xvart]

If I had to place a bet right now I would say glowball and Jason are scum buddies using Llamarble as a smoke screen to bus each other.

With all due respect to glowball and jason... seriously?

With all due respect, yes. When someone calls out two alleged "scum buddies" and vote parks on one while going toe to toe with the one he isn't voting it raises my eyebrows. It appears to be misaligned lynching priorities. When I'm voting someone I believe is scum I advocate for that person's lynch and if appropriate draw the connection to the other person possibly being scum. But we can debate glowball's scum value once jason flips scum. I suppose it doesn't hurt that I have a scum read on both of them independent of each other with a stronger read on jason and I have certainly not seen any evidence to suggest that either are town.

[xvart]

While I don't really buy into the "selective posting" scum tell I am a bit suspicious that Ghostlin has basically defended himself by pointing fingers at other people who are seemingly doing the same thing of which he is accused.

Let me distract you over this direction while you forget about looking at me...

I need to go back and look at the original suspicion that started putting him on the radar prior to Vi pointing out his "thread avoidance".

[xvart]

@xvart: Reading through jason I see what you're seeing. I'm not yet convinced on glowball being scum though. How does assuming glowball-Town change your read? In addition, have you played with jason before?

Like I said, I think they are both scummy independent of each other, although looking back a lot of my glowball scum read D1 is because I believe he was spending a lot of time putting up what I believe to be smoke and mirrors regarding the double voter Roxi. Assuming glowball-town doesn't change my read of jason at all other than I would have to reassign jason's motives. Assuming glowball-town then I would wager jason is voting Llamarble to be on a wagon and still causing a ruckus in an attempt to either 1.) get the wagon off of Llamarble (if they are scum together) or 2.) get the wagon off of the person he is voting so he isn't on a mislynch (if jason is scum and Llamarble is town) or 3.) just trying to look busy. In any case, I originally didn't like him not responding to my question here; but then I realized I asked the wrong question as the answer was obvious by where his vote was parked. I should have asked why voting Llamarble was a better vote than glowball but I lost the line of thought and thought it would be obvious by my line of stated suspicion that that was what I was going for. When someone identifies two people as being scum together there should be a logic behind which one you vote for, that being that the scum flip on one will provide more evidence on the other. The fact that he hasn't articulated why he is voting Llamarble over glowball while actively engaging glowball is suspicious to me.

I guess that is the long way to explain that glowball's alignment to me is inconsequential at this juncture as from a theoretical standpoint glowball could be either alignment as jason's behavior is scum aligned regardless of glowball's alignment. If/when jason flips scum I think that will provide more evidence against glowball which we can discuss his lynch at that juncture. If Llamarble is town and jason is scum I think glowball is most certainly scum.

As for the last question, I believe I have played with jason before but I don't remember anything significant about the game/s. I can look back through my games if you want and determine our alignments if it would be beneficial.

[xvart]

So, for confirmation for the dumb kids like me in the audience: are you saying that you think the possible link between glowball and jason is just icing as far as confirmation is confirmed? You believe they're both scum (and hence probably buddies unless there's third party scum in this game) and so the link between solidifies the idea instead of an associative read if one's town the other's scum?

I believe strongly that jason is scum and I believe that glowball has a higher than average chance of being scum (although my case on him is pretty circumstantial by itself). I think if/when jason flips scum it will increase the likelihood that glowball is scum. The associative link is jason > glowball, meaning jason gives us evidence on glowball.

Xvart, I see what you are driving it RE: Llama/Glow/Jason, but what do you think about Amrun and VP's heated back and forth earlier today? At the time neither of them were voting for the other just like Jason and Glow. Is the difference just that you have scum reads on one set of players and not on the others?

Honestly I haven't thought too much about it but I would say I picked up on what I did because of my D1 suspect pool and I think it was a little more obvious from what I recall because jason explicitly said "these two dudes are scum" and voted one and started arguing with the other. I don't recall either VP or Amrun saying at the start of their exchange that the other was scum but I could be wrong.

[xvart]

Okay I am not very good at explaining how my brain works but I will try my best to at least give you some indication of where I am at.

Scum:
Jason
CES
Xvart

I would like to make an attempt to give even a slight reason why you think this because this is literally the first time you have mentioned my name (other than one response you made to a direct question I asked you); because right now it appears as nothing other than because I have been vocal about a suspicion I have of you.

Well the whole point of the Amrun/VP exchange was that Amrun agreed with Llama and stated VP was scummy.

Thanks for linking that post. It reminded me that the reason I probably wasn't paying attention to Amrun v. VP was because Amrun was voting for jason and I don't believe VP to be scum.

I think you are tunneling super hard here in that you are finding any reason you can to call Jason and Glow scum together. Jason didn't vote one and then hunt down the other, he voted Llama, further pushed him on replies and it wasn't until Glow showed up with this unhelpful post did the argument start.

I think you are overstating jason's "pushing for Llamarble replies" in the post you linked because the first comment is asking for a proper case and in the second comment he talks about how high post count doesn't mean anything in terms of alignment. If jason is

pushing

Llamarble as scum it isn't very hard. Even so, there is a significant discrepancy between the effort placed in identifying glowball as scum and Llamarble as scum in jason's ISO; and it doesn't match his voting record.

To be blunt, I don't get your point at all and I don't see how it is different from what happened between Amrun and VP. It feels like fake scum hunting, picking and preening "facts" that best help your already formed premise.

If you don't see my point at all why did you say "you saw what I was driving at in this post? Why are you going to all the effort to defend jason here? I'm clearly interested in his thoughts and his account of his voting/suspicion record and not your thoughts and your account of his actions.

And furthermore, I find it especially interesting that you are going to all this effort to undermine my scum read of jason when two posts later you even say that you would rather lynch jason over ghostlin. Are you jason's buddy, too? Does jason have a sweet scum PR that you want to save? It seems to fit with the pattern of you jumping in on D1 when I was talking about jason being scum then.

[xvart]

Yes, I saw what you were driving at but it wasn't until I took a closer look at the whole Jason/Llama/Glow exchange did I realize how badly you were misrepping what went down.

You really are trying to say that I'm misrepping what when down when I just illustrated exactly how wrong you are? The "push" jason put on Llamarble consisted of

1. asking for a proper case; and,
   
2. talks about how high post count doesn't mean anything.

But my point still stands because f you were to read jason's ISO without knowing anything about the game and with all his votes removed I cannot believe anyone would actually think he was voting Llamarble over glowball. The difference in stated suspicion and intent is obviously favored towards glowball by a wide margin.

It doesn't matter that I have varying scum reads on all three of those players, a shit case is a shit case and makes me really want to lynch you.

Well compared to your reasons for thinking jason are scum (one post gut read, not posting, etc.) I would say that I have a less shitcase than you do. Speaking of your read on jason, while looking through your ISO to see why you have a varying level of suspicion on jason I would some interesting things. You had a gut scum read on his first post. You then further explain your first vote as a gut scum read. You then ask Amrun to consider lynching Llamarble over jason. Then you call jason wrongtown. Then you ask ghostlin why he is voting Llamarble over Amrun/CES/jason. Then you come back and confirm you are suspicious of jason. That is certainly a lot of dancing around voting jason if I've ever seen it.

[xvart]

xvart is doing :awesome: at not pretending to participate beyond his own sideshow.

If I'm going to do a sideshow I might as well do it correctly, right? Anyways, I don't know exactly what you are looking for me to participate in because I have a associative town read on Llamarble based on reasons I've outlined on jason being scum. I agree with your glowball scum read (although frankly I can't remember why you think glowball is scum outside of lack of participation). And I think it is a long shot for you to put Sotty in the whatever top tier as her interjections and fence sitting is becoming even more suspicious as the game goes on.

Mmkay so should Llam turn out to be town, Vi deserves death.

Specifically why Vi over everyone else on the wagon? This seems to me to be some insider information propheteering.

[xvart]

So you say you're going the other way from me in terms of my Town read on jason.
Nice of you to say that, or try to dissuade the Llamarble wagon, or etc.

I rarely actively defend someone unless he or she has done something unique that makes them definitively town in my mind. In fact, I can only really remember doing it once and that was within the last week in a game that just finished. Otherwise, the best you'll get out of me is saying I think this person is town and this is the unique reason why. In this case, I don't have a substantiated town read on Llamarble outside of association to one of my unflipped scum reads.

Define "participation". She's tried rolefishing (before and after claiming "VI of the game"), pushing lewarcher when it was safe to do so on the grounds of it being a bad claim, and spending pretty much all of D2 fussing about being called scum (and calling jason scum for calling her scum).

Thank you. Like I said I didn't recall off the top of my head you speaking too much about glowball; but I appreciate that information as my scum read was based on tenuous and somewhat circumstantial information and again, association with unflipped scum reads.

I'm not seeing either, although I'll look again later. She was way active D1 and pushing people around in a pretty believable way.

I originally thought she just randomly got brought into the leads I was pushing on Quilford and jason D1 (her vote being the one Quilford said makes her auto town which came under scrutiny). Since Quilford claimed Census Taker I dropped the scum read there; but now that she has once again jumped into the discussion revolving around jason I think the pattern was more focused on protecting jason. If you look at her commentary towards me, especially today, it appears she is more interested in discrediting me and my approach; as illustrated by the dancing around jason being scum while calling me scum for pushing on jason. If jason flips a scum PR, and a powerful one like ninja or role cop or godfather then the first person I'm looking at is her as someone having a significantly higher chance of being a partner. Despite all the bravado she really doesn't seem interested in me getting lynched but more trying to make sure nobody else listens to me.

Actually, I'll meet you in the middle for a glowball wagon.

With what you have added above to my suspicions I would go for a glowball lynch if jason won't see rope today.

[xvart]

Suffice it to say I won't be voting for jason Today, and a jason lynch would basically have to overrule me. So, glowball wagon?

I really don't know what that would accomplish since it make the same number of votes on glowball as on the wagon I'm on right now, which I believe more strongly is scum. I could go back and look at the other people who have cast suspicion about glowball and then we'll see; especially in the light of the Llamarble dissipating.

I tracked Reck to VPB last night.

There were conversations / votes going on among that group starting with Sotty voting Jason, Qford finding it town, Xvart & VP finding that scummy, etc.
I simply didn't bother enumerating everyone involved because the point was to mention that there were two threads of discussion going on.

This is really interesting since we apparently have a third party and only one kill. If the N1 kill was third party then Llamarble could be scum; but if the N1 kill was the scum kill then he is cleared as town. If Llamarble flips mafia scum then VP is most likely scum since scum wouldn't claim a fake track on a JK without knowing it was true or be able to provide confirmable information. I still think Llamarble is town; I believe his motive for tracking Reck. The real question is whether or not the JK on VP was the reason for one less kill.

You're on the 'marblewagon now, Vi. Stay faithful.

Don't worry about it. I was just wondering if xvart actually wanted to see glowball lynched at all, after asking me to make a solid case on her (even though she was already likely to be scum...?) and even going so far as to accuse her of having the double vote with a somewhat uncharacteristic tone of post. (Answer: No - especially considering of the three people he called scum on page 3, she's the only one he hasn't spent a substantial amount of time voting)

I haven't been spending a substantial amount of time voting for glowball because up until you detailed your suspicions my "case" was considerbly weak and without too much merit other than by association to others I found more scummy. I don't see the value in compromising on a lynch when I get the same net wagon (3 votes) between the wagon I'm currently sitting on with the compromise wagon. Of course, the jason wagon being made up of currently inactive people isn't helping me get him lynched as my vocal-ness isn't doing much so tonight I'll go back and look at everyone who has mentioned suspicion of glowball and then proceed from there.

I think it is probably going to be the most likely successful wagon at this point.

[xvart]

Your vocal-ness?

I was sitting on a wagon with two people who are either absent or spinning her wheels. My talking about it wasn't/isn't making it grow any bigger and the inactivity of DDD and the credibility of the other two people aren't helping it either. So when I said that it was in reference to looking into moving to glowball since I was having no effect on getting jason lynched and there seems to be some rumblings about glowball without the votes.

Miscellaneous and Investigations occur

after

all kills. Meaning, Quil's results should have shown only 14 people.

VOTE: Quilford

Yes! I love it when D1 scum reads come back into play. Of course this certainly won't help my tunnel vision now.

Note possible Quilford - Llamarble scumteam setting up the false claim in advance:

What kind of setup with an SK could make sense? 1 v 4 v 11?

I don't see this as a likely scenario since the scum team has day talk.

I believe if submitted N1, he would have gotten the entire results from D1 on the setup.

jason answering for Quilford for no reason other than pure speculation. Connection confirmed. To put it straight, jason has no reason to be speculating on this especially when it is clear in the first post.

ooooh interesting, you could be onto something

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... d_Role_PMs

Census
You may take a census, thus discovering the number of [Pro-Town] players, [Anti-Town] players, and [Neutral] players

that are alive at the end of the current night phase

. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing the number of [Pro-Town], [Anti-Town], and [Neutral] that are alive.

Quilford?

jason is covering since the description on the wiki has no relevance to the stated action resolution list.

@xvart: In 154 you asked lewarcher to tell you his pet's name. Why in the world did you want to know that?

Because I have role information that I believe suggests that a specific character in the game is town. If lewarcher had claimed that name I would have revealed my information for discussion.

Anyway, with the Quilford issue on the table I am less willing to move to glowball now. I think the game plan should be lynching either jason or Quilford, either scum flip at this point will give us the other. When jason flips scum then we will also be served Sotty on a scum platter. I'm going to hang tight on Quilford has no votes. I'll go so far as to say at this point I'm only interested in lynching these two.

[xvart]

The real question is whether or not the JK on VP was the reason for one less kill.

lol, wut? so there's a SK in this game?

Well given the situation I don't think it is too far of a stretch given the information we were operating under at the time (the census results). You certainly didn't have much to say about it yesterday when people were saying "given a third party I always assume SK unless evidence suggests otherwise". What's the difference?

Now with Xvart proclaiming I am Jason's partner I feel like he's laying in the ground work for setting me up down the road. Shame it won't shake out for him that way.

You're right. I'm laying the groundwork for back to back scum lynches. But it's funny you say I'm laying groundwork to get a lynch later on because my observation is the same about you. You think jason and I are both scum but you are wanting to lynch someone already on the wagon of your less priority scum lynch. If I was scum and I was lynched, you would only have one less person to help you lynch your second scum read (jason) tomorrow. And since you haven't drawn any connections between jason and I (at least that I recall) I don't see the logic behind that since you think we are independently scummy in your mind. But I'll make you a deal. We both agree that jason is scum. You help me lynch him today and then you and I can go toe to toe tomorrow on who is his likely partner.

I was told that after day 1 there were 10 town, 4 mafia, and 1 third party.

What category on the list on page 1 do you think your role falls into?

xvart - Contradictions (106 - "I don't really care so much about the town read from a vote post." 116 - "I have a hard time swallowing that you had a gut scum read on anyone based on one purely RVS post."), general fishiness.

That's not really a contradiction. In the first post I was saying how Sotty's involvement in my Quilford/jason scum read was irrelevant other than Quilford assigning town motives to Sotty only saying "vote: jason". My commentary on my reads was only relevant to Quilford and jason and I was trying to eliminate the distraction of Sotty being the target of the described suspicious behavior. That doesn't mean I validated her gut scum read, which I said in the next post you linked.

Even so I'd like to leave it where it is for a bit to see what happens.

If Sotty joins this tasty wagon, the target of which she has repeatedly cast suspicion about but failed to vote, this could be a viable wagon.

Limited Access over the holiday. I should be able to post but being at the in laws I never know what might happen. Also, everyone should go see the Muppet movie over the weekend.

[xvart]

@saulres

: My Census Taker ability,

like the Tracking ability I also have

, (and which is making me very confused about Llamarble's alignment because I'm not sure whether a one-shot Tracker and a full Tracker would exist on the same faction) is one-shot.

Wow. Your claim gets better with age. So you are telling us that you have a census taking ability that resolves sometime in one of the following categories [Roleblocks, Protective Roles, Mafia Kills, Vigilante Kills, Serial Killer Kills,Other Kills] plus you have a one shot tracking ability; and then you forgot that it was role madness? This is the absolute worst claim I have ever seen. It's like the inverse of a fine wine. I can't wait to see what happens tomorrow... You never answered me when I asked what category you think your census taking ability resolves in on the first page.

VPB claimed roleblocked.

If you are having this train of thought now wouldn't you have disbelieved Llamarble's claim when he originally made it?

Umm... Jason isn't my second scum read. Are you even reading what I post? He's like 4th at best.

I meant second tier suspect, despite all your commentary on jason.

Well given the situation I don't think it is too far of a stretch given the information we were operating under at the time (the census results). You certainly didn't have much to say about it yesterday when people were saying "given a third party I always assume SK unless evidence suggests otherwise". What's the difference?

lack of a second kill is just as much evidence to the contrary as it is evidence in support. In fact, I would say statistically speaking is speaks stronger to the former. That's why I'm saying making those leaps in logic is more than a touch suspicious considering how you and Llama are trying to pass it off as an open and shut case, imo.

Saying I'm "passing it off as an open and shut case" is a little sensationalized, don't you think? At the time there was no reason to disbelieve Quilford's census result and a third party role. Several people said yesterday that when they knew of a third party they operated under the impression that it was SK until there was evidence to suggest otherwise, yet you didn't say anything about this at the time. If there was a second kill attempt last night it is possible that either you attempted to kill someone or you were protected from a kill. Frankly, I don't really care either way at this point because if there are two killing factions out there then they know more than I do and based on what they know they can take care of you tonight if they determine you to be a killing role.

Quilford absolutely must die. His census result is obviously fake given the resolution list provided and I would vote for him now if he had at least one more vote on him, but I'm going to stick with jason since it is still somewhat viable.

[xvart]

You never answered me when I asked what category you think your census taking ability resolves in on the first page.

Yes, I did.

You did? Where? It doesn't matter. In order to get the result you got census taking would have to fall into one of the first two categories (before the death of Reckoner): Roleblocks or Protection. I don't see that as very likely do you?

You're stupid and as far as I can see the only reason you're suspicious of me is because of my claim and because of the Day 1 Sotty interaction.

Your claim alone is worth lynching.

I hope you're happy Xvart.

I am.

And I wonder if Roxi will vote before the hammer this time so we can look for scum amongst the hammerers as the game goes on instead of having that option taken away from us by a chicken townie.

Vi pointed this out, saul: how do you know Roxi is controlled by a townie?

Roxi is most certainly not town aligned unless it is a total deadbeat town. Town would be using the second vote all the time to pressure two wagons continuously. Scum don't want to use it to draw any parallels between their play and their partners and the second vote.

[xvart]

I take it you have never been a Town Doublevoter before.

No, I haven't. Is there something I'm missing from not having this experience?

My Census Taking ability was prefaced with 'At the end of Day 1...'.

Okay, so your role resolves after kills have occurred (investigation or miscellaneous) but gives you a result from prior to the kills occurring. I've played a few of zoraster's games and I don't see this is likely coming from him as a game designer and moderator. The one thing I appreciate the most about zoraster games is the functionality of the game being standard and the logic behind the way things occur, including role resolution. Even if you read through the MD threads he has posted in there is a theme of stability or standardization (for a lack of better words) and an ability occurring at a late point in the night but giving a result as if it occurred earlier in the resolution order is extremely tough for me to swallow.

Vi

- from your experience designing games with zoraster and modding conversations you've had with him do you think it is likely for him to include a scenario that occurs as Quilford has outlined?

I feel like I have been manipulated onto the Ghostlin wagon by CES and VPB in particular.

Ummm... really?

@xvart - The ghostlin wagon is where it is at. If you're town, you were supposed to be the counterwagon to Ghostlin scum. Don't let them fool you into a Jason mislynch. This entire thing will get cracked wide open when Ghostlin flips scum, so come on over.

I have a hard time believing that I was a counterwagon to anyone since my wagon never got above three people and given those three people I doubt they would all pile on at the beginning to create a scum fueled counterwagon in the scenario you provide.

[xvart]

Vi - from your experience designing games with zoraster and modding conversations you've had with him do you think it is likely for him to include a scenario that occurs as Quilford has outlined?

Most of the games I've designed with zorotter have been mechanic madness, not role madness. I agree that standardization is a big priority for him. With that said, I'm curious to know (because I didn't look at the time) what it was zoraster changed in the rules after Quilford made his claim.

But the point in question is more a mechanics question in my opinion (roles resolving outside their stated resolution order. The fact that there is a stated resolution order is the kicker.

I believe Glowball is now just trying to stall the game by trying to go over things already established to hold up a lynch.

Which lynch do you think he is trying to hold up?

A question for

Quilford

(and I fully recognize this isn't going to go anywhere today): why did you claim your one shot tracking ability when you did? Needless to say I am a little skeptical of the chronology of your tracking claim and the "now I have role related reasons" because you originally said you "doubted the motives of tracking Reck" and voted Llamarble then unvoted him to vote Ghostlin based on some sidebar with CES. If I counted correctly, prior to your unvote of Llamarble the vote count was Llamarble at 5 and Ghostlin at 3. For someone who has role related reasons for thinking Llamarble was scum you sure don't take a lot of convincing to jump to a lesser wagon.

Furthermore, the fact that VP claimed to be RBed shouldn't change your opinion of Llamarble if you didn't think two tracking abilities would be of the same alignment. From your alleged town perspective and being suspicious of two tracking abilities being of the same alignment you would think he is scum; or, prior to VP saying he was RBed Llamarble was fake claiming the tracking ability which would also be scum motivated. The fact that you so easily switched votes to a less viable wagon with all this in mind is highly suspicious.