Mini 383 - Ben & Jerry's Mafia - OVER!

[VitaminR]

Vote: Y

The integrity of language must be avenged!

[VitaminR]

MoL isn't making that much sense - I think the assumption that MeMe and are working together is rather tenuous, but I don't agree with your logic, Sotty. I think there was a pretty significant difference between Stoofer and PlaysWithSquirrels in the way they followed MeMe. Stoofer did it jokingly whereas PlaysWithSquirrels jumped on the perfect wagon right after Stoofer's observations on it, yet ignored them and never provided his reasons for doing so.

I agree with Stoofer's thoughts and I would like to see Squirrels justify going against them.

Unvote: Y

I noticed this:

PWSquirrels (1) : (CKurtz, Stoof)

Mod, is this correct?

[VitaminR]

unvote PlaysWithSquirrels

Eh, the lurking comment doesn't do much to my scumdar, because chamber seems to always act like a fucktard, so I don't see why it makes him scummy this time.

Some? Do you have the memory of a goldfish?

Good ice cream doesn't sour.

Chamber's behaviour is strange, but it doesn't seem particularly advantageous to scum. I seem to remember PlaysWithSquirrels was jumping around a lot with his votes (ending up on chamber, I think), which worries me more. It's still more unusual than scummy to me, though.

bertrand's comment struck me as odd. As I see it, only Stoofer and PWS (although that post got deleted) have actively pursued chamber. Also, the reason why is right there. A pattern of persecution is not relevant by default. I don't see why you don't look at why this is happening and share the information you have about other games so we can look at chamber's behaviour in that light. You're now implying that the fact that chamber is sometimes viewed as suspicious has any bearing on how he is viewed in this game. There is no evidence in that.

[VitaminR]

Hmm... I remember that too now that you mention it. I think he did both which is why I felt he was jumping around a lot. I seem to recall that was my thinking, anyway. I'd like some confirmation on what his actions were from PWS himself.

[VitaminR]

Chamber, I think you need to change your attitude. That kind of absolutism and refusal to explain yourself more clearly to others is directly detrimental to us.

I don't even think your behaviour has been that scummy. It seems more erratic to me and I don't see why scum would behave like that. Your condescension, however, has tempted me to put on a vote. I don't really want to see that in any game.

I don't see much of a case against Y. His early questions were fairly innocuous and an apologetic awareness of inactivity doesn't really seem that noteworthy.

I'd still like to see bertrand contribute more and maybe also respond to my comments. I would also like to hear from perfect and see spectrumvoid's conclusions so far. Insight from a new player is always useful.

[VitaminR]

I still don't really see the case against Chamber. What he has done doesn't really make much sense from a scum perspective. I'm getting the feeling that the people jumping on this are too a large extent confusing bad behaviour with scummy behaviour. It seems very much to come down to a 'lynch because we don't like you'-thing. I am suspicious of the spectrumvoid/PWS/Y pressure that has pushed this reasonably close to a lynch.

[VitaminR]

I am suspicious of the spectrumvoid/PWS/Y pressure that has pushed this reasonably close to a lynch.

Just for the record:
I didn't push it towards the lynch limit. chamber was at L-2 when I started asking questions and he's in the same state right now.

I was trying to move the game along by creating conversation (Which made me see the behaviour of some people).

You pretty much said that you'd vote him, though. You helped create the atmosphere of inevitability without actually committing. Scummier than the other two, to be honest.

MOL's slip tells me nothing. It could be a slip, it could be a typo. I don't see the excitement.

Spectrumvoid's last post really sent alarm bells ringing for me. She leaves the derailing chamber wagon rather easily (and I don't see why, the extent of chamber's analysis of other posters is the following:

Pws is a bandwagonning whore, I think he's probably town though, I think Y might be a good place to start, but I'm still not sure.

)

Also, MOL's slip is a very simple thing to jump on. On top of that, she sets a precedent for a later Y vote, the other budding bandwagon at the moment.

This is the first time this game that I feel reasonably confident about my vote.

Vote: spectrumvoid

[VitaminR]

W.r.t: chamber: It doesn't matter what he said. The fact is I voted him for not saying anything, so I unvoted him when he said something. It may not be a good something, but it is something.

That doesn't make sense. He only said something he was made to and he had 5 votes plus Y's quasi-vote on him.

[VitaminR]

Constructive.

[VitaminR]

Whereas your post was what, exactly?

I'm not saying I'm particularly constructive, just that criticising other for not being so when you refuse to push anything but a chamber bandwagon is not fair.

[VitaminR]

Whereas your post was what, exactly?

I'm not saying I'm particularly constructive, just that criticising other for not being so when you refuse to push anything but a chamber bandwagon is not fair.

Well, this game is not moving and no one seems to want to follow my spectrumvoid vote, so let's turn it into a:

Unvote: spectrumvoid,
Vote: Mr Stoofer

[VitaminR]

Mariyta's interpretation sounds much more likely to me and I am certainly not going to base any of my suspicions on MeMe's reasoning, but I think it is fair to expect DGB to reassure us on that point.

Unvote: Mr. Stoofer,
Vote: Y

His claim seems much weaker to me.

[VitaminR]

Reason why I'm saying chamber is scummy is because he says he likes Y's claim. If chamber was a townie, he would have known Y's flavour claim was false. We have outed a lot of pro-town powers, so I'm assuming there can't be that many left. So I'm assuming chamber isn't a townie, which probably means he's scum.

vote: chamber

I didn't like your logic Day 1 and that just doesn't make any sense either. He could be a power role so he's scum?

Vote: spectrumvoid

[VitaminR]

A note: I won't have much access in the coming two weeks. I'll try to post at least once, though. I'm posting this in all my games.

[VitaminR]

Spectrumvoid, thank you for explaining that. Your logic is a lot clearer to me now.

Unvote: spectrumvoid

I'm inclined to think chamber is town at the moment, mostly based on gut. Stoof's roleblock could very well mean something, though. I don't really want to go for either at the moment. I'm not entirely sure we'd make the right call.

I need a re-read. I'll try to get one in once I get regular access again.

[VitaminR]

I'm looking forward to hearing wildheart's thoughts. Stoofer's late attack on Colonel Kurtz makes me inclined to trust wildheart at the moment.

Re-reading MoL's posts, I think he's a good choice at the moment. He's made some strange decisions and his confusion yesterday plus overwillingness to claim and his attitude towards Stoofer speak pretty strongly against him.

I'm willing to vote him. I'd like to hear wildheart's thoughts first, though. We're pretty far into the game and rushing anything won't help.

[VitaminR]

Re-reading MoL's posts, I think he's a good choice at the moment. He's made some strange decisions and his confusion yesterday plus overwillingness to claim and his attitude towards Stoofer speak pretty strongly against him.

what attitude towards stoofer?

you mean saying good bye to him and say we'll miss him?

No, I don't really think that post says anything about your alignment. I mean the lack of an attitude towards Stoofer yesterday.

Think I should clarify since even I wasn't sure what I'd meant. I meant why does the attack make her less suspicious?

Because I think the way Stoofer went along with the attack and subsequently attempted to leave a case against Wildheart does not fit scum buddies. Largely WIFOMish, maybe, but I read it that way.

[VitaminR]

With twin newborns, I think we can give her some time.

[VitaminR]

I would not be opposed to flavour-claiming, actually. It would give us some information, though it does seem fairly limited information.

[VitaminR]

I'm Oatmeal Cookie Chunk.

[VitaminR]

Maybe it's me, but that doesn't really seem all that self-explanatory.

[VitaminR]

That leaves wildheart, who we were already waiting for.

List so far:
Mariyta - Cherry Garcia - one-shot vig
VitaminR - Oatmeal Cookie Crunch
meaning of life 42 - Karamel Sutra
bertrand - Chunky Monkey
Patrick - Mint Chocolate Cookie
spectrumvoid - Vanilla Heath Bar Crunch

I can definitely see some useful information in this.

[VitaminR]

Hmm?

[VitaminR]

'kay.

[VitaminR]

In the meantime, Mariyta, could you perhaps explain your vote for me?

I assume it's more than distaste of the flavour.

[VitaminR]

Looking at the other flavors that have been scum, yours fits. Oatmeal ice cream? Um, ew?

How does it fit?

Sugar Plum and Holy Cannoli are both currently not in use, I think. Other than that, I don't see a link between the two. I have no idea what either tastes like, though, or what's in them. Are they both foul tasting?

[VitaminR]

It's been explained what they are made of, I believe. One has ricotta and one has some other gross stuff in it. I do not see oatmeal as an ice cream ingredient. Therefore, you are the best vote, in my opinion, right now.

Ah okay, I see what you mean now. I'm not really sure how to defend myself against that. It seems strange to attach that level of importance to a fairly subjective connection.

I'll try, though. Let's have a look at the evidence.

Re-reading the mod flavour, I do understand your point:

What a melted mess at the bottom of the freezer! It looks disgusting... purplish with brown streaks??? What good that possibly be?

The empty container says: "SUGAR PLUM."

That was a plum ice cream with a caramel swirl. What a bad, bad flavor.

Although it could apply to this too (Peanut Butter Pretzels seem equally out of place):

When suddenly, the bottom of the freezer started to be covered with the gooey remains of... of... PlaysWithSquirrels. Regrettably, his flavor was Chubby Hubby, meaning that the mess was on the lumpy side, with chunks of Peanut Butter Pretzels in a river of sticky fudge and creamy warm vanilla. This ice cream was the freezer's COP. Ah well... recovered from the scene was a disposable blow torch. No one left to investigate, though.

It could be applied to Stoofer's flavour:

Look at this sticky, gooey, creamy melted mess! HOLY CANNOLI!

Did I say, "Holy Cannoli?" Yes I did. A rich recipe of ricotta ice cream with roasted pistachios and fudge covered nuts. This elegant flavor from old Italia had a few fans, but they were hardly a mob so it was given the lob.

Oh My, Cannoli is an Italian pastry… that means, Mr Stoofer was Mafia! But, being "holy" he did not like other flavors having fun at night, which means that he as a sinister Mafia ROLEBLOCKER!

BUT: I don't think it quite works. Here, the focus seems to be mostly on the fact that it is Italian as justification for it being scum. Also, ice cream is just another diary product. Like milk and cheese, the difference is mostly in what you do to the initial product. Including ricotta is not that strange. I mean, cheesecake is a dessert food too.

On top of that, Stoofer had a safe claim. The very act of basing a vote on the links between claimed flavour and scum flavour becomes pretty tenuous as a result.

Furthermore, Sugar Plum is the only flavour for which your theory really works and it is the one that belongs to the Mafia Traitor (whose flavour need not necessarily be linked to scum that much).

Moreover, Vanilla Heath Bar Crunch and Mint Chocolate Cookie are essentially the same things as Oatmeal Cookie Crunch. They are all biscuits used as a basis for a flavour.

In addition, I've just noticed, Black and Tan is beer-based.

I don't really see how you can justify ignoring actions completely on that basis or casting this vote.

I do think, however, that the flavour can tell us something. I think Mint Chocolate Cookie stands out on that list in not being unusual. It reads like a safe claim to me.

I still want to see wildheart's flavour first, though.

[VitaminR]

Great! Welcome to the game, TheEyeOfMordor.

mol, I have no idea what a karma effect would be.

[VitaminR]

Lemon Peppermint Carob Chip? I have to say I agree with Mariyta on that. That has to be fake. It's a horrible flavour and it doesn't have a description.

Vote: TheEyeOfMordor

Mol's role claim is equally difficult for me to believe.

I think we have our scum.

[VitaminR]

That is a truly horrible claim...

[VitaminR]

and right now i have a strong urge to either vote TEOM or Spectrumvoid....... but i'm leaning more towards Spectrum.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you two are scum together.

I thought we've been over this flavour thing before. MoL is still the lynch for today though.

you are pushing a vote for me

way

to hard.[/quote]
How is that pushing way too hard? Spectrum has been consistent in her vote and that was only one comment after TEOM claimed that is just a statement of her opinion with the new information in mind.

As for TEOM, I'm not so hung up on the flavour claim as some ppl seem to be, because I think if scum thought they had incriminating flavours, they would fakeclaim a flavour. This would have been especially easy for TEOM, given that he was last to claim, he could have claimed anything. I don't like the vengeful townie claim at all though.

I do agree with this and I have to say I'm doubting my TEOM vote. I'm torn between whether or not it is too awful to be a fake claim or too awful to be given out to a player by a mod.

I'm going to change my course a little bit. The mol vote seems a safer bet.

Unvote: TheEyeOfMordor,
Vote: meaning of life 42

[VitaminR]

Right... I think this puts us in a pretty bad situation.

My gut feeling still says there's no way TEOM's claim is real, but I'm not at all sure. It does seem convenient for him that Mariyta is dead. That is pretty loaded with WIFOM, though.

I'm also annoyed that we haven't heard from bertrand in a while. I don't have a read on him at all. Or on TEOM, wildheart or Kurtz for that matter.

At the moment, I would like a re-read and I would like everyone to check in.

[VitaminR]

I don't really care about the order, we could handle it like I have seen in other games, where one person claims and then chooses who claims next..

That seems fine to me.

[VitaminR]

I'd actually prefer it if spectrumvoid made the decision. She showed knowledge of the vanilla townie flavour very early on and I pretty much see her as cleared because of that.

[VitaminR]

Reason why I'm saying chamber is scummy is because he says he likes Y's claim. If chamber was a townie, he would have known Y's flavour claim was false.

I don't know, the fact that she knew his flavour was off speaks pretty strongly in her favour for me.

[VitaminR]

I'm waiting for spectrumvoid and other players' opinions on whether or not she should dictate the order of the mass claim.

[VitaminR]

Doc.

Do I choose who goes next now?

[VitaminR]

Stoofer
Patrick
spectrumvoid

[VitaminR]

Original Roll String: 1d2

1 2-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

Just type the following (replacing parenthesis with brackets):

(dice)1d2(/dice)

[VitaminR]

Righto.

1 = bertrand
2 = Patrick

Original Roll String: 1d2

1 2-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[VitaminR]

Bertrand goes first then.

[VitaminR]

Okay... bertrand has posted elsewhere, but not here.

[VitaminR]

I agree that if bertrand is a double voter, he is probably town.

I am thinking TEOM and Patrick. I'd like to see the breadcrumb, though.

[VitaminR]

bertrand - Chunky Monkey
Patrick - Mint Chocolate Cookie
spectrumvoid - Vanilla Heath Bar Crunch
TheEyeOfMordor - Lemon Peppermint Carob Chip
VitaminR - Oatmeal Cookie Chunk

The only way he isn't scum(assuming bertrand is a 2x voter) is for me and spectrumvoid to be together, which would mean 2 docs.

The same goes for you really. If you aren't scum, then it's Patrick and SV. I find that hard to believe too.

For me, that just leaves the question of which is more likely: a vengeful townie or a back-up doc?

Back-up doc is a typical scum claim. Patrick did want to claim first which is a point in his favour, but assuming a doc would be out there is not really that big a risk to take.

I'm not sure about the argument that his role makes the town too powerful. Even without it, we have a fairly powerful town. MeMe could have been a limited cop, but it's still true. Although we don't really know what the mafia has in terms of abilities and the one scum we lynched did have a fairly strong ability.

I don't like TEOM's role claim at all. The flavour is terrible, it fits the scum flavours we have and your role is unverifiable and fairly useless.

I don't think the choice really matters, though. I'm fairly convinced you're both scum.

I would like to hear from bertrand first, though. If he can't back it up, double voter is a pretty good scum claim in this situation.

[VitaminR]

I don't know what Patrick's scum tells are.

I am starting to realise that bertrand's claim is a bit problematic, though. It is difficult to prove without taking a big risk and would have been unlikely to be counterclaimed (though that was fairly obvious anyway, he was the last person claiming).

[VitaminR]

Yeah, but we have no real idea to what extent scum have been given safe claims. Stoofer had one, and a good one, but Y didn't.

I don't think it's a good idea to ignore them, but we can't really be sure going on flavour alone.

[VitaminR]

We generally have 3 scum in a 12 player, yes?

We've lost Stoofer (RB), and a traitor. I don't think a traitor is part of the 3 scum, which means we still have 2 more to go. Shall we put teom at -2 and let betrand do the honours?

I agree with this. Can we have Patrick put him at -2, though?

If bertrand and he are scum together, he could finish off TEOM without us being able to test bertrand.

I don't think that's likely, but it'd be a prudent thing to do.

[VitaminR]

There haven't been any votes.

If Patrick is Town, so is VitaminR. If bertrand is also Town then I am scum, and so is spectrumvoid. Which I consider a highly unlikely scumpair.
Therefore Patrick is scum.

I don't follow this logic at all.

The way I see is that if bertrand is a double voter, he's pro-town (otherwise the game would be over now). I think spectrumvoid is town. That means we're sure to nail scum if Patrick votes TEOM and bertrand then hammers him.

[VitaminR]

Bertrand, could you tell us why? Otherwise it just means we're stuck.

[VitaminR]

If that was a lynch and TEOM is scum as I think he is, I'm pretty sure we should go after Patrick tomorrow.

[VitaminR]

Die in a fire, town. I totally had this game on lockdown. I actually investigated Stoofer N1 and was pretty convinced Vitamin was scum. Hint: one-shot vigs should not vig on N1 X(.

Perhaps cops have a responsibility to play cautiously? Stoofer was lynched Day 2 anyway. Also, had you claimed a result, you would have been dead Night 2.

MoL, you were mostly lynched based on your evasion of the Stoofer wagon. Also, you could have made it clear that you had such a docish role.

I think rather than blaming the loss on everyone else on your side, taking responsibility for your contribution to the game might help both of you.

TEOM, with the power roles in this game and scum having no safe claims, I think your role was a fair addition. Also, eventually, you were lynched because of deduction anyway.

Congrats and thanks to my scum buddies! I think Stoofer played well (great safe claim) and I wish I'd been active enough to bus him. Planning the last few days with Patrick was a lot of fun, and I think the way he managed to avoid suspicion was a big contributing factor to the win.

Also, MeMe's singling out Y was eerie, in retrospect. I really didn't see it.

Great set-up, DGB. Thanks for modding! I really enjoyed this game.

[VitaminR]

Yeah, I didn't play a very good game.

Sorry you feel that way.

[VitaminR]

I'm glad to hear that.

[VitaminR]

A vig killing a valuable pro-town player

Not sure if you can really pin that on the existence of a vig.

Scum claims going unquestioned because it was clear that in this game anything goes

I don't think that happened. Doc was accepted because everyone expects there to be doc and not many people realised MoL's role was a variation on the doc role. As for back-up doc, I don't know why we would got away with that...

[VitaminR]

I do think it's a factor, but I also think there are other mechanisms at work. Such as a reliance on traditional power roles.

[VitaminR]

mol42

Your flavor is: KARAMEL SUTRA.

We created this Core Concoction to help you find your way to the ultimate ice cream experience. Whether your primal urges lead you to scoop into the sweet core of caramel, soothe your passions through the serene ice cream streams, or play scoop-&-tickle with the fudge chips, you'll be in total control of your own ice cream destiny.

Your role is: Deva. At night, you may use the power of karma on another player, duplicating their night action against them. In addition, any night action targeting you has a 50% chance of being affected by karma. "

You have to see it like this. There are two parties in a night-kill, the mafia member and the victim. Traditional docs target the victim. Mol would need to target the mafia member, but he would still stop the kill. He'd even kill the mafia member. Of course, it is more roleblockery in nature in general, but that role too is somewhat docish.

[VitaminR]

You just want to see everything as a confirmation of Stoofer's Law.

(And it probably is.)