Open 42 - Friends and Enemies - (Game Over) before 495

[Samruc]

^
Bah.

Vote: EmpTyger

[Samruc]

A wagon? Where?

- Lynch! Lynch! Lynch!

Oh... You mean me.

Unvote, Vote: Simenon

OMGUS[/b]

[Samruc]

Is this your attempt at taking us out of the random stage?

[Samruc]

So you are trying to keep us in the random stage then?

FoS: Lemming1607

[Samruc]

I don't know how to respond to you being all serious

I know how you feel... especially after post 16 (which I could have ignored, but didn't)

[Samruc]

Mod Edit: Vote Count

Samruc[3](Lemming1607, EmpTyger, Simenon)
YogurtBandit[1](Sir Tornado)
Simenon[1](Samruc)
Polter[1](Shanba)
Jex[1](Per)
Shanba[1](Khelvaster)

Not Voting[3](YogurtBandit, Jex, Polter)

I have no idea how my post was taken as a serious. I see you trying to take us out of jokevote phase while we're still on page 1 really odd.

I didn't think it was serious, but since it was the second time (in as many posts) that you "attacked" me, adding that I had "no defense to my scumminess", I thought it appropriate to post *something*. I thought you were trying to start a discussion, and that's why I asked.

[Samruc]

It's not the first time someone calls me out for lack of humor, so maybe I should learn something from this...

You can be scum

[Samruc]

Shanba, Sir T asked you a question (a good one). Why EmpTyger?

And why unvoting?

[Samruc]

Unvote: Samruc

I don’t like Lemming or Shanba. Actually, I don’t like Lemming *and* Shanba. They’re both trying way too hard.

Mm, quite possibly true. I've never tried being quite so random before, so it probably came out quite forced. As you can see, this is nothing like my normal playstyle.

YB, while I may have been joking around, I was quite serious about my votes both on you and on Emptyger. I want you to explain what you meant in that earlier post and also why you've just given a rough parrot of what Empy said.

Something is out of place with this post, but I'm not sure what. One, this feels far too defensive from what isn't even a real attack, and two, apparently you aren't "trying to be random", since you based both your votes on something serious.

FoS: Shanba

And I want Yogurt to answer too, his FoS on Simenon is completely unintelligible.

[Samruc]

Where did I ever state I was trying to be random?

I've never tried being quite so random before, so it probably came out quite forced.

Also, something is out of place when you say that you are trying to be random, then say you are serious.

[Samruc]

Unvote, vote: YogurtBandit

He still hasn't answered what he meant with his FoSes in the beginning.

[Samruc]

/accept my gentle prod. (This is not a game post.) I've been home with fever for several days, and will try to pick up all my games tomorrow. Sorry for being away.

[Samruc]

I find it really hard to get a read on people in this game. So far it's a jumble of votes and suspicions, but I guess that's how a game should be, I'm just not used to this style. (Lemming finds this slow )

Sir Tornado: Seems to be playing a very weird game, attacks YB and then accuses Shanba for agreeing with his "crap reasoning". If you are aware that you are using bad reasoning, why would you use it in the first place? To lay a trap? Seems like a bad tactic to get anyone (except maybe yourself) to find scum.

Crub: Adds no suspicions at all except for a vote at Sir T. I can't tell why this vote was placed. He didn't talk Sir T out of policy lynching, rather "can empathise with Sir T over it". Then he shrugs off Jex's comment, instead of trying to answer.

FoS: Crub

***

Unvote

.

[Samruc]

Well, at least he seems to have missed my post - Crub, any comment to my FoS?

[Samruc]

Crub: Adds no suspicions at all except for a vote at Sir T. I can't tell why this vote was placed. He didn't talk Sir T out of policy lynching, rather "can empathise with Sir T over it". Then he shrugs off Jex's comment, instead of trying to answer.

FoS: Crub

Jex has got a bone to pick with me because I random bandwagon'ed someone to L-2 during the random voting stage, and then OMGUS'ed her for voting me for it

And she says I was being opportunistic and lurking :0

What more do you want me to say?

Get some more votes on me so you can lynch Simenon tomorrow when I turn up town

unvote, vote simenon

Crub is defending very poorly - if he is indeed a townie he shouldn't be *asking* for votes, he should be giving us reasons not to vote him.

And I don't "want you to say" anything, I want you to look for scum and think.

[Samruc]

ChaosOmega: I'm reluctant to put Crub at L-1. Apparently he isn't affected by pressure, rather keeps the same style throughout his posts: "Lynch me, you will find out that you are wrong". I don't like this defence, as I said before, but I don't find it enough to risk a lynch for.

I'm thinking that there actually might be "opportunistic scum" on the wagon. Consider this:

Unvote; Vote Crub

I don't think you're really town, and I didn't really like how you claimed you were town and we could all "Lynch Simenon the next day".
If you turn up town then we can all assure that someone on this bandwagon is scum.

Not very convincing. This is from the guy who said "I'm not a big fan of bandwagoning". Could be that he knows Crub will turn up town, and prepares to go after other players on the wagon?
Another thing about Sammich:

I think Sir T is in a -1 lynch situation.

Why point this out if you don't react to it? This looks like you either want a hammer but didn't dare say it, or wants him put off L-1(which would have been easy to do when he had voted Sir T himself).

I think this guy deserves a closer look.

Vote: Sammich

Late edit: The last post from Sammich isn't very impressive either.

[Samruc]

I don't OMGUS.

ChaosOmega: I'm reluctant to put Crub at L-1. Apparently he isn't affected by pressure, rather keeps the same style throughout his posts: "Lynch me, you will find out that you are wrong". I don't like this defence, as I said before, but I don't find it enough to risk a lynch for.

So if this is his defense, how do I turn up as oppurtunistic scum?

Because his defense is the obvious candidate to push against if you are trying to not look scummy while lynching.

I'm thinking that there actually might be "opportunistic scum" on the wagon. Consider this:

Unvote; Vote Crub

I don't think you're really town, and I didn't really like how you claimed you were town and we could all "Lynch Simenon the next day".
If you turn up town then we can all assure that someone on this bandwagon is scum.

Not very convincing. This is from the guy who said "I'm not a big fan of bandwagoning". Could be that he knows Crub will turn up town, and prepares to go after other players on the wagon?

Far from it.
If Crub does turn up town, it's his fault for acting so scummy.

And everyone else's fault for making the wrong assessment of his scumminess...

It doesn't look like that at all. If I wanted a Sir T hammer, I would have been way more pressed onto his case.

Completely Wifom.

ChaosOmega pointed out you were always seemingly on the bandwagon. Could it be that you're now focusing on a player that's not being BWed at the moment?

Yes. After Omega's post I tried to explain to myself why I hadn't voted Crub, and decided I was not completely agreeing with having him at L-2, even less so at L-1. It was only natural then to take a look at his bandwagonners.

[Samruc]

So we're killing crub today?

Only if you're scum

Or if you don't start getting useful...

[Samruc]

ending this long ass day.

UNVOTE: Sammich VOTE: Crub

This is the worst reason for a hammer I've ever seen... I would have voted you, but I can't find anything else to back up a case against you, on the contrary you looked pretty townish to me up to this post....

Then vote me.

A townie doesn't ask for votes, how many times do I need to say this?

What's wrong with multiple FoS's?

Since you are talking to/about people as though they were scum, I find it very scummy that you do not dare to put your vote on anyone.

Examples:
"Did you NK Sir T to put the extra heat on me you couldn't achieve during day 1?"
"Are you happy now? Crub's dead, are you ready to try and kill Lemming?"

It looks like you are trying to sow as much suspicion as possible, leaving your vote free to fall where it can help you the most. I'm putting this one back where it belongs:

Vote: Sammich

[Samruc]

A loaded question is one that generally contains unverified assumptions, logical errors, or

excludes "reasonable" answers by virtue of the way it is phrased.

"When did you stop beating your wife?" is a classic example; no matter if the answer is "I didn't..." or "I never...", it implies that they either continue to beat their wife currently, or they have at some time in the past. A clever answer will instead point out the implicity assumptions carried in the question as stated.

This is exactly the same thing: "Did you NK Sir T to put the extra heat on me you couldn't achieve during day 1?" If he says no, it just means he NK'ed for another reason, thus it's *not* a simple yes or no-question.

[Samruc]

A note to the

Mod

: Simenon moved his vote to Sammich, if I'm not mistaken.

Mod Edit: Fixed

I'm quite happy with the pressure being on Sammich, his last posts were downspiraling (fast) until suddenly the "oh, lolz I'm doing another Crub ". Content or more pressure, I say.

@Phate: I'll try to take a closer look at your analysis tomorrow. (Reading that last page took me about two hours...). I simply noted that there was nothing pressing for me to answer directly, but I will comment on your conclusions if I see something strange. I agree with you, that Chaos seems to be overexaggerating, but that Khelvaster-thing looks like a mistake.

@CO: Do *you* find Lemming scummy, since you seem to think Phate should be?

[Samruc]

Unvote

.

(Sammich, consider yourself still at L-1. I just don't want to give you the opportunity to hammer yourself)

We can wait for Sammich to rewrite his analysis, at least a few more days. I think it might be an interesting read anyway.

[Samruc]

I think it might be hard to keep a discussion going after saying that we probably could agree on a lynch anyway.

Phate, if you really want that discussion with Lemming now, I'll give it a few days, but I'm gonna put Sammich back where he belongs if we start getting nowhere.

[Samruc]

It's honestly because I can't get a read on him. The "I'm going to put Sammich back where he belongs" alarmed me.

I've been suspicious of Sammich since D1, and I was the first to vote him D2. By voting him to L-1 I might or might not put him "back where he belongs", but I would be putting

my vote

back where it belongs, which is probably what I should have written.

I might as well take the time to ask what Sammich means with this:

I accept that propasal. I believe a Sammich lynch is customary but we could use.
Wait.
That's not the point.

[Samruc]

Since we're at LyLo, I would roleclaim if I was a Mason at this point

We will be at LyLo for the rest of the game, but that still doesn't make me think masons should claim unless they need to.

***

Ok, so we have one claimed mason, who I will not counterclaim. I know I'm not scum, and I feel pretty sure that Per is not scum. Out of the remaining four, three has to be scum. I'm leaning towards Lemming and CO, and not sure about Shanba and Phate.

I know we are at LyLo, so I won't place a vote yet, but if I do it will probably be for Lemming. I guess

HoS: Lemming

. Especially for his hammer, putting Sammich at L-1, and also for this quote:

Any argument based on what scum do is WIFOM honestly, because then you have people like Sammich who come out and accuse people.

This looks very much like a scum-slip to me - first he talks about what scum do, and then gives Sammich as a contradicting example, unconsciously using his knowledge(?) that Sammich is town...

[Samruc]

Sim, what happened between these posts?

Which leaves it out of 4. I'm leaning Samruc or Per to be the final townie.

No, it leaves it out of five. Silly me. That means two confirmed. A combination of Samruc/Per/Phate sounds pretty good to me.

And now:

Per, Samruc, and Lemming are the players I have down as scum.

The first ones implies a way different scum-team (Shanba, Lemming and CO)...

[Samruc]

About Per, well, I said before that I feel pretty sure that he is town. At least sure enough to say that he is one of my least favourites for today's lynch.

I didn't see anyone comment on this:

Any argument based on what scum do is WIFOM honestly, because then you have people like Sammich who come out and accuse people.

Lemming apparently uses Sammich as an example of people playing scummy even when they aren't scum - Did he *know* Sammich was town? Scum tell or not?

[Samruc]

I'm still here. I don't know how to deal with Shanba's post, but I guess I'll just have to eat it. It's interesting that he pairs me up with the guys I would have paired himself with (Lemming, CO)...

Let me try Shanba, Lemming, CO:

Page 5 Vote Count:
YogurtBandit[4](Simenon, Samruc,

Lemming1607

, Sir Tornado)

Lemming1607

[2](Khelvaster,

Shanba

)
Jex[1](Per)
Crub[1](Jex)
Khelvaster[1](

EmpTyger

)

Page 8 Vote Count:
Crub[4](Jex,

ChaosOmega

, Simenon, Sammich)
Simenon[2](Crub,

Lemming1607

)
Sir Tornado[1](

Shanba

)

Lemming1607

[1](Per)

Page 10 Vote Count:
Crub[2](Jex, Simenon)
Simenon[2](Crub,

Lemming1607

)
Sammich2](Samruc,

Shanba

)

Lemming1607

[1](Per)
Samruc[1](

ChaosOmega

)

Shanba

[1](Sammich)

// The pattern for the first three VC's seems to be a lack of pattern - but suddenly something happens. End of D1 looks really convincing.

End of d1:
Crub[6](Jex, Simenon,

Shanba

, Per,

Lemming1607

,

ChaosOmega

)
Sammich[2](Samruc, Crub)

***
Page 14 Vote Count:
Sammich[2](Samruc,

Shanba

)
Phate[2](

ChaosOmega

, Simenon)

Shanba

[1](Sammich)

Lemming1607

[1](Jex)

Page 16:
Sammich[3](

Shanba

, Simenon,

Lemming1607

)
Phate[1](

ChaosOmega

)
Lemming1607[1](Sammich)

// Once again, there is a lack of cooperation among the red-colored names, until end of day occurs, where we got two reds on the lynch again.

End of d2:
Sammich[5](

Shanba

, Simenon,

Lemming1607

, Sammich, Phate)
Phate[1](

ChaosOmega

)

***
Not sure if I'm convinced by those patterns, and the fact that Shanba himself wants to pair CO and Lemming as scum seems to be too much bussing for this to be true... On the other hand, "End of D1"-VC is very good. My suspicions for CO and Lemming remain, still not sure who to pair them with. I'll try to take a look at other possibilities tomorrow.

[Samruc]

I've got this odd feeling that Shanba/Phate just won.

Phate: you are not hammering.

How did they win, if it's not yet a lynch?

[Samruc]

There has got to be scum on the wagon, and they are either waiting for Per, or CO is scum as well. Those are the only reasons I can see why CO is still alive, so if Per is scum we are pretty much sitting here waiting for the loss.

I can just hope my reads on CO and Per are correct, otherwise this means the loss:

Vote: ChaosOmega

[Samruc]

If you are so sure that there *will* be a tomorrow, why so upset?

[Samruc]

Well, if CO is town, we lost. I realise that. If not though, I might or might not have convinced some remaining townie I weren't his scum buddy, which hopefully reduces the risk for a mislynch tomorrow.

[Samruc]

Yes, I understand it could be interpreted that way too. At least there doesn't seem to be any celebrating scum on the streets yet...

[Samruc]

Phate: Why are you so sure about Shanba and Per?

[Samruc]

Phate, as I see it, your reasoning rests on two things.

The first is my hammer. As you can see, during D3 I clearly stated that CO and Lemming were my top candidates. (Lemming/Fonz still is, by the way.) I did *not* want to end up in D4 with a discussion about "why didn't Samruc hammer CO if he was his top candidate". Apparently I got the opposite instead... Not much to say about this, really, I can't force you to believe me. (There is also a chance you are the last scum, but I'm trying to ignore that for now.) As you said, you asked for a hammer, and you got one...

Your second point against me is process of elimination. I said yesterday that Per is not a lynch candidate, and I don't think he is for today either. Shanba is a trickier question. He did a very interesting post analyzing the vote counts, but he would have had just as much, if not more, motivation to write that as scum. He left himself out, which is natural to do, but it also skews the results in his favor. I can't say I'm convinced of Shanba in either direction, but if he is town, from my point of view elimination leaves *you* as the only possible scum.

I'm still not sure about the two of you (and of course I can't be completely sure of Per as well).

[Samruc]

Just because Shanba would have motivation to do something as scum doesn't mean his logic is flawed.

And just because his logic isn't flawed doesn't mean he's town.

[Samruc]

Sigh.

We're at LyLo. It's three *weeks* to deadline, and you have nothing more to say than a vote? You will have to work harder than that...

Vote: Phate

[Samruc]

Think my votes pretty much speak for themselves

Sure, but the only thing they say for sure is that you nailed two scum.

I know you're scum, Samruc.

Obviously you can't. Especially since you're wrong.

[Samruc]

Uhm...

Happy holidays, everyone. A WEEK OUT OF SCHOOL!
...
no posting due to school break

Are we going to wait one

week

for this guy?