Newbie 476: Slow, slow, slow, then FAST and over. Damn.

[jmar]

Just a post to lead things off since I can't seem to find a "watch topic" button.

[jmar]

<b>OMGUS Vote Sir Tornado</b>

[jmar]

Oops, someone wanna let me know how to do bold?

[jmar]

Ah okay.

Then

OMGUS Vote Sir Tornado

.

[jmar]

I think stephy_nz is saying he'd rather no lynch than vote randomly. Which I agree with. But we're not voting randomly, some players just like to start things off that way. By the time Day 1 is over, if we're a good town, we should have discussed our lynch thoroughly.

[jmar]

Interesting post Korlash... mind telling me why you think stephy is probably town?

Also, I've played my fair share of mafia games. I used to belong to this site about a year ago, I stopped coming and lost my username and password. But I played several games here and in real life as well.

Note this doesn't by any means mean I'm skilled. I played here for a couple months, but I haven't played in awhile so I'm quite rusty (evidenced by my complete inability to even bold votes), which is why I joined the newbie queue.

[jmar]

I agree, just something that caught my eye.

[jmar]

For me, the thing that stood out from Korlash's post the most was how he said he'd lynch Mith if he was goin with his gut. But I wasn't gonna say anything until I saw more from him. But now that we're getting into discussion, I think it's interesting. Here's my reasoning.

See, Mith is probably town. Just from sheer mathematical odds he's probably town. (5 town, 2 scum).

Now if I'm town, I see Mith as a resource. As one of the most experienced players on here, he's definitely dangerous if he's scum. But he's also a huge benefit if he's town, simply because his experience will be helpful for us. If I were scum, I'd want him out of the way as early as possible. Mith will prolly be doc-protected tonight if there is one, so it makes him risky for a night kill.

Also, Korlash said Sir Tornado was his backup- another experienced player. So right now I've got an

FOS

on Korlash, simply because he seems to want to isolate the newbies.

Of course theres still the huge possibility that Mith is scum, in which case were probably all screwed.

[jmar]

I also said "if I'm scum." I don't really see the big deal about the word "if," but meh, whatever.

[jmar]

Also, Mith is right about the probability thing. Korlash, think of it this way. Lets say me and your coins came up tails, and we were both scum. Now what happens to your 50/50? There's only two scum, so your coin just became two-headed. It's 2/7 scum and 5/7 town.

[jmar]

I'm really suspicious of Korlash right now. To answer your question "When did I say Torn was Mith's backup," you said that Mith was at the top of your list, then you ended your post by saying if you had to vote it would be for Mith or Torn. Also I think a big part of my suspicion is I disagree with you completely on Torn's statement. I think he was stating that as what he thought, not actively trying to tell other people how to play. Too early for me to make a formal vote yet but my FOS has turned into a

slightly larger FOS

[jmar]

That may be what you do, but that's not how I play scum. In fact I avoid doing that because I feel it draws attention (kinda like how you just pointed it out). But this could turn into a whole WIFOM thing. Anyways, I never said that you thought Sir Torn and Mith were working together, or that you "attacked" Sir Torn. I simply said I found it suspicious, which is what you were also doing, no?

BTW, never thought I'd have an OMGUS turned against me- pretty funny really.

[jmar]

Nah, I meant it like if you weren't voting for Mith, Sir Tornado was your backup.

[jmar]

I'd like to see some more input from havok, stephy, and Holy as well. Guys, any thoughts on the proceedings thus far?

[jmar]

Responding to havok:

-The doc comment was integral to my point of why the scum would want to kill Mith off by lynch.

-I think mith is much more of a resource than any of the newbie townies if he is town simply because of his experience. He's played a lot more games than any of us and knows more scum tells and behavior.

-Also, please explain to me why you think my agreeing with stephy's post makes me think she's pro-town? I never said anything of the sort- that's a huge leap in logic.

-Sir Tornado hasn't unvoted me, you didn't unvote stephy until just now, so what's your point? It was an OMGUS vote and that hasn't changed. I'm not ready to seriously vote for anybody yet.

[jmar]

Responding to havok:

-The doc comment was integral to my point of why the scum would want to kill Mith off by lynch.

-I think mith is much more of a resource than any of the newbie townies if he is town simply because of his experience. He's played a lot more games than any of us and knows more scum tells and behavior.

-Also, please explain to me why you think my agreeing with stephy's post makes me think she's pro-town? I never said anything of the sort- that's a huge leap in logic.

-Sir Tornado hasn't unvoted me, you didn't unvote stephy until just now, so what's your point? It was an OMGUS vote and that hasn't changed. I'm not ready to seriously vote for anybody yet.

[jmar]

Oops, sorry for double post... bad connection.

[jmar]

Of course I can see why its WIFOM- that doesn't change the point that I needed to bring it up in order for my theory to make sense. I only mentioned it- I know theres a good possibility there's not even a doc.

I "jumped on" Korlash? I asked him a question. I don't know about you, but if he comes out first page and says he thinks someone is town, I want an explanation as to why because I certainly had no read on stephy at that point. I also think it's pretty suspicious of Holy to suspect stephy no much and not be able to post anything until she does when we've got pages of discussion under our belt now.

On to OMGUS, I really think it's laughable that this has gotten this much attention. I thought OMGUS votes were supposed to be fun and random. If they're such a huge scum tell as you say they are, then why do they even exist? Also I didn't defend Sir Tornado, I used him as an example.

Huge FOS

on havok. I think you're really reaching here and I was willing to forgive at first but now you're just jumping on me without really having an argument. When I defend myself, you say it's exactly how a mafia would react? What was I supposed to do, not respond to your accusations? And your quickness to defend Korlash makes me suspicious too. If I had to vote with my gut right now it'd be havok and Korlash for scum team.

[jmar]

Defend yourself without acting defensive. Gotcha. /sarcasm

[jmar]

Correct me if I misinterpreted this, but did Holy just ask if doing something would get her off Mith's scum list? I think I read that right. Could be wrong. If so that sounds a little scummy to me... just something that caught my eye. Thoughts? Explanations?

[jmar]

Me either, although I'm having trouble understanding anything she says.

[jmar]

Holy what you're doing screams scum to me... you've been making lots of mistakes. I'm still hesitant to vote though because I know you're new and sometimes I'm not sure if I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly. But, anyways

unvote: Sir Tornado

because I'm satisfied with him for now, though I'd like to see him post more.

FOS: Holy

. I'll probably summarize my thoughts on everyone tomorrow and maybe make a vote.

[jmar]

Well there's the thing that everybody pointed out, already, where she said she wanted to know if doing something would get her off Mith's good side. Then she said that she didn't care if stephy was scum or not. Whenever Mith posts anything about her, she starts either agreeing with him or saying "sorry." Now she says she read point 3 wrong. I agree with you Korlash, some mistakes are definitely forgiveable, and I'm not ready to vote for her yet. I also agree that you shouldn't persecute someone for bad grammar, but at the same time it shouldn't give them a free pass.

On the other hand, Holy has some pro-town points... the whole idea of her testing each person seems townish to me, or it could be a very good scum play (I know I'll prolly be hit with WIFOM for this). So, IDK, I'm undecided, it's just lately Holy's been giving me a very scum vibe.

[jmar]

Well, I posted similar things before and havok basically told me everything I said was WIFOM. Some people have broader definitions than others I guess- I'm personally of the opinion that what I said isn't really WIFOM, but I could see havok saying it is- this isn't an attack on havok, it's just what I said is similar to what he's called WIFOM so far in this game.

[jmar]

"Get off" or "stay" is pretty much the same meaning because I left the "doing something" vague. You're either on or off her good side so doing something will keep you there or not doing something will take you off, and vice versa. (A little confusing I know.)

But this is exactly my point, you wanted to know why you were on his suspect list. For me, that's a little scummy. If Mith says something, defend yourself, but you shouldn't be concerned with staying on or getting off the suspect list- if you're town, you've got nothing to hide. That being said, I'm still not completely sold on anybodys scuminess as of yet.

[jmar]

I know that seems confusing, but when I said "get off" and "stay" are the same, I meant within the context of the sentence. I said "do something to get off"- because the "do something" is vague, you could replace it with "do something to stay" and it's the same thing, because I never specified what the something was. It's hard to explain my thoughts sometimes, but that's how I meant it. Anyways it's a moot point because Holy said "stay" in her post.

@ mith: I guess I worded that weird. I don't mean to say Holy shouldn't ask why she was on your list, but that's not what she did. She asked if changing her behavior would take her off your list, and to me, caring that much about being on someones list is scummy.

That being said, havok is the one who's tripped my scumdar the most. He came in, made a lot of pointless accusations, and then went back to lurking. So I'm comfortable with

Vote: havok95

. Then again, I'm still not ready to lynch so it's more to generated discussion than anything else. Sir Tornado is also suspicious to me because he's been active in other games I'm playing with him, and he's barely posted in this. So,

FOS: Sir Tornado

.

[jmar]

To your first point lioden, you took it out of context. I was saying that no lynch is a better idea than lynching randomly, which it is. Of course nobody wants to no lynch day 1. We've already had this discussion though.

Good point on your second one. It's definitely worded poorly- all I can say is that I was trying to get across that I wasn't assuming Mith was town.

[jmar]

thanksgiving? I thought that was next month o.O


... weird...

I agree. Lynch all liars. You're dead, scum.

Kidding...

[jmar]

Sure, I'll explain, even though I have already. You came at me with a bunch of accusations that I thought were reaching at best. I defended myself, and you said "that's how a Mafia would act." When I say Mith is a resource to the town, I mean that he can help out the newer players, pick up on scum tells, and make worthwile and well-though out posts. It doesn't mean I'm going to blindly follow him wherever he may lead. There's still a good chance he's scum, so that would be utterly ridiculous.

Hopefully the rest of the people can see what I mean when I say you're reaching. You thinking I should vote along with Mith because I see him as a resource is probably the best example of it yet. I'm happy with my vote.

[jmar]

See, I thought my response to the stephy question was rational, because I never did say I trusted stephy. But anyways, I'm not sure how much I buy your "baiting." Seems a little like backtracking to me. Not sure though. You're still the scummiest on my list so far, so I'm keeping my vote.

[jmar]

But trapping is completely different from asking a question and gaging a response. You used something that you admittedly knew was off-base. If I acted defensive to something that was baseless to begin with, you're the scummy one, not I, for trying to turn nothing into something.

[jmar]

I agree with you for the most part mith, although I've got holy second and havok first. I'd like to hear something from SirTornado though, he's quickly moving up my scum list with his lurking.

[jmar]

Well, I'm happy with my vote. I guess we should hear from lionden, havok, and SirTornado. Maybe a good idea would be to have everyone post their top two or top three scummiest and go from there? What do you guys think?

[jmar]

Well, what's your definition of baiting then? Because I took that as you were trying to get me to "take the bait" by using something you knew to be sketchy to "trap" me. If you were "genuinely curious," then why didn't you just say so? Where'd the baiting thing come from? Asking a question and gauging a response and "baiting" are two completely different things in my book (and from the responses, most people here agree with me), so maybe that's why we're disagreeing on this. I don't know how you should have addressed my defensiveness, because, as I said, I don't think I was acting defensive. My posts with regard to both stephy and mith are completely rational from my perspective.

But really, I've seen Sir Tornado posting in topics as short as 2 hours ago (on the general discussion board). If I had to vote right now it'd still be havok, but his absence is troubling and shooting him up my scum list in a hurry.

[jmar]

Well, semantics is a big part of a text-based game, no? Especially when trying to figure out motivations behind what people say. I'm not trying to be a dick to you, I'm trying to understand why you used the term "baiting," because to me it implied that what you used to bait me with was unfounded. Either way, you didn't answer my question(s).

[jmar]

First off it is a fairly common newbie mistake to think a no lynch is better then killing off a towny.

In fact I would rather just no lynch then kill because of a deadline now that I think about it...

This is unacceptable. No-lynch hurts the town in such a small game.

We have 5 townies. We no lynch today, and then one is killed at night. That leaves us with 4 townies, 2 scum, and we're at lynch or lose. If we lynch wrong, we're down to 3 townies, one more is killed at night and we lose.

So now that that explanation is out of the way, which I assume you already knew anyway, do you want to explain why you're contradicting yourself? You should no better than to no-lynch in a newbie. You fell of my scumdar but you just shot up in a big way.

Major FOS: Korlash

[jmar]

If I was trying to make you the quick lynch, I would have voted you. I think youre overreacting a bit, whether it's because of the deadline or not its still a bad idea and I don't know why you brought it up.

[jmar]

I'm talking about the no-lynch, which you brought up in post 182.

[jmar]

Fair enough, but

IGMEOY

.

[jmar]

You could ask me without telling me you're looking for me to be defensive again. That's what most people do in mafia games, and they don't call it "baiting."

But either way I guess it's sort of irrelevant to my main points/questions...

A) Do you really believe that I contradicted myself when I called mith a resource to the town and then disagreed with him? That's really grasping at straws.

B) Could you explain why you find my response to your first question and my response to your second question so different? Because, honestly, I don't see it. I think I was being logical on both accounts- then again, a second perspective would be nice. Maybe you're reading my first response differently than I intended.

I don't mean to keep picking on you, but you ARE my vote right now and I want to be sure I'm not lynching a fellow townie (of course, you can never really be 100% sure).

[jmar]

@ Sir Tornado: To be quite honest, I felt it would be disingenuous. Barely anybody is posting in that game, and we just lost the mod, so you've got an excuse there. Heck, I have trouble coming up with anything relevant to post to that game. There's been plenty of times where I've checked in here multiple times without doing anything in that game, so I figured I'd let you slide. I saw your post on the discussion board because you were the "last poster" while I was on the main forum, and it caught my eye. I guess I'm somewhat comforted by the fact that you're playing the same way in both games. Then again, you could be scum in both games, or you could just be a good player who doesn't change up his playstyle. I'm not sure yet.

[jmar]

w/e I won't explain some read error, but I scan read that HALF RIGHT (please don't discuss about this).

This caught my eye. Why don't you want us to discuss it? Seems a little sketchy to tell people what or what not to discuss, especially when it comes to you.

[jmar]

Well, I think what we're looking for is a little more. What you say basically boils down to everyone could be townie or scum. There's no way for us to ever know for sure if someone is town or scum (unless we're a cop), so you're not saying anything new. It's a lot of words but very little content.

What I was posting about wasn't your "half-read." I'm satisfied with your explanation for that. What I'm interested in is your "please don't discuss this." What did you mean by that?

[jmar]

Still not liking Holy. Very much not liking that neither Holy nor Korlash are voting.

havok's not voting either, and neither was lionden at the time of your post. I understand your suspicions of Holy, but why single out just those two?

[jmar]

Mith says Holy's not voting... Holy votes next post... curious. Seems a bit like appeasement to me.

[jmar]

Well, I definitely don't want to no lynch, and Holy's second on my scum list. So if worse comes to worse, I'll unvote and hammer Holy before the deadline. But I still don't want to let havok95 off the hook, he seems to be lurking now which will probably save his neck for a day. I'd like to see a vote from both he and Korlash though.

[jmar]

Well, we're just not gonna agree on the stephy thing. I thought it was a stupid question, seeing as how stephy had posted once at that point. So my first thought was "why is he asking this question?" and I arrived at the conclusion, based on you all of a sudden showing up and throwing out a bunch of vague accusations, that you were reaching. I responded as such, thus I think I was logical on both accounts.

Also, I don't think that's reaching at all on Holy, especially combined with my earlier suspicion when Holy asked Mith how to get off his scum list. If Mith asks Holy to do something, she seems to comply immediately, as if she's afraid of him suspecting her.

[jmar]

I don't understand your change in playstyle just because of the deadline. I don't think we need to have the discussion in every game about how a no lynch hurts the town. This is true whether its a deadline lynch or not. Point is, we need to have a kill by the deadline or we end up no lynching. If the people on Holy right now unvote, then it's a different story entirely, but as of right now your idea about the mafia each voting the person and then leaving the killing vote to me is moot because there were two votes on Holy before I said I'd hammer. Yeah, it probably would be a good excuse for me to use tomorrow for hammering Holy, but I know I'm town, so I'm not too worried about that. I can't control how you play, and that includes how you perceive what I do. If you think something I do is scummy, you have every right to vote me, but I think I've explained my position on both Holy and havok enough to justify a vote on either.

[jmar]

This point is really immaterial, because, at the end of the day, a deadlined no lynch really is the same as a voted no lynch. It has the same effect on the game (well, almost the same). If anything, I think a deadline no lynch benefits the scum much, much more than a voted no lynch, because you cannot actually blame only the scum for a deadline no lynch (blame the scum as in call anyone in particular scummy due to it).

QFT.

[jmar]

I don't have a lot of time to post, and I want to get in before the deadline, so I'm just gonna do what I said I was gonna do before.

Unvote, Vote: Holy

. I'm late for class, so sorry I can't post full reasons and everything but it's pretty much the same as what I've said already.

[jmar]

Shit. There goes the doc. I'm gonna have to reread, but I guess as of right now my top suspect remains havok.

Korlash, mind explaining why you threw the "hang Jmar" in there?

[jmar]

Not offensive. I don't take Mafia games personally. I figured it was a joke, I just wanted to know if there was a reason you picked me instead of anybody else.

[jmar]

That's a good catch. Of course you get into the whole WIFOM thing, but then again it's kind of a far-fetched thing to plan for. I don't think it's anything concrete, but definitely something to keep in mind.

[jmar]

But I do hate babies...

Anyways, I'd like to hear something from havok or Sir Torn, even if its only a "hey, we're here and totally not off in the corner conspiring because we're scum buddies."

Oy... now I'm joking... sheesh

[jmar]

Well I don't have too much to say I guess. Logic says that the scum were probably on Holy's bandwagon. I realize this pretty much points to me. I'm town, and mith was obviously town. So that leaves me with Sir Torn and lionden. I don't find lionden too scummy, he's been very townish so far. Sir Torn has been lurking, but I guess that's his playstyle to an extent. He hasn't given me much to call him scummy besides being the last one to vote for mith. Like I said before, havok is still probably my top suspect, and Korlash I guess you're after that. But at lylo, I'd much rather go with the safer look at the people on the bandwagon. So I guess we should take a look at Sir Torn. I don't know, I have to reread.

[jmar]

That's exactly why I'm confused. If I was to go with my gut, I'd be voting for havok. But it's not a smart move at lylo because he wasn't on the wagon and I think at least one of the scum most likely was. And the fact that nobody's really posting doesn't help me decide which way to go.

[jmar]

That's how you feel, because you're not on the bandwagon. Since I am, that eliminates one of the people off of it, and I don't feel lionden is scum. I'm certainly not saying you and havok aren't scum, but the safe play is to lynch somebody off the bandwagon. The least likely scenario in my book is that you and havok are scum-buddies and both managed to stay off the bandwagon. If you are, you've done a good job so far. I'd like to vote Sir Torn right now to put some pressure on him, but it opens it up for a quick lynch, so I can't really.

[jmar]

It might not be though. It's very possible havok and Sir Torn are lurking, waiting to pounce, especially after a chance to talk at night. If I make a vote, I don't want to have to keep looking back at the thread to make sure nobody puts a second vote on him. Talking, they could have exchanged personal contact info, like AIM screennames or something. So the scenario could go (for arguments sake lets say you and havok are scumbuddies)

1) I place a vote on Sir Torn.

2) I go to bed.

3) You see this, chat up your buddy havok on AIM.

4) Both of you come in and place your votes.

5) The town loses

Farfetched? A bit, but a vote's not worth the risk IMO at this point.

[jmar]

Well, I've basically posted mine. If I had to post my scum pairing right now it would be Sir Torn and havok, though they've done a good job of not really having a link between themselves. My lynch choice as of right now is Sir Torn, but I'd like to hear from him obviously, and some more input from havok wouldn't hurt either.

[jmar]

This is ridiculous. We shouldn't have a deadline right now, they should be replaced if they don't respond to their prods- the majority of us are posting, but we can't really get anywhere without them. Anyways, if they don't show up I'm ready to vote Sir Torn.

[jmar]

I've already said it, but basically because Sir Torn was on the bandwagon. It's the safer bet.

[jmar]

No thanks, because I'm not scum. I feel like I'm repeating myself though.

[jmar]

Yeah, I agree that I had been lurking... but it was a global phenomenon for me. If you don't believe this, check out the following games:

Newbie 501, Mini 510 (where Jmar is playing too), Mini 520, Mafia 67, Mafia 68, Mafia 72, Doctor Who Mafia 2, and Food Fight Mafia and Designer Mafia.

This is what has really kept me from voting you. If you had showed up in 510, I prolly would have voted you by now.

Jmar, I have one particular problem with your theory about me being scum because I was on last lynch. It doesn't actually apply. Stoofer's law is applicable only in the instances where a lynch takes place, instead of a deadline, and I am not scum really.

I tried the exact same hypothesis you are trying that right now in Newbie 417 where I was the cop. It ended in a disaster for the town.

Interesting point. It certainly did end badly for the town in that instance. This prompted me to reread the game. I got to thinking- the person most likely to be scum probably isn't the one on the bandwagon, but the one who is on the wagon, but jumps off when they found out Holy is going down. I got to thinking about this because Holy was really the only candidate for lynch. It probably wouldn't be very difficult at all for the scum to stay off the wagon by simply letting things happen.

My reread brought up something I find very interesting... neither Korlash nor havok voted for anybody on Day 1. Nobody, outside of the random phase. Korlash voted for nobody all day, then when pushed by mith, voted himself. Then he voted me after I hammered holy. MeMe made a mistake, her votecounts said havok was voting for me all day when he never actually did (unless I missed something?) She seemed to have corrected it in the votecount at the end. Havok pretty much seemed to focus on me all day, but never actually voted. Then he all but disappeared once Holy's lynch appeared inevitable. Although he posts a lot, Korlash hasn't contributed much of substance in the long run. He repeatedly stated he didn't find Holy all that scummy, but at the same time didn't really pick a side or attempt to prevent her lynch. And once the deadline was on, he practically flat out refused to make a move on anybody. The person pushing him to make a vote? Mith, who turned up dead.

This doesn't let Sir Torn off the hook in my opinion, but I found this pretty interesting. I'd be interested to hear some thoughts/defenses on this. I'm reevaluating my initial thought that one of the scum is probably on the wagon, because rereading, it wouldn't be that hard to stay off it given how focused we were toward Holy. She basically acted as a convenient distraction for the scum.

[jmar]

No, I'd rather you have looked at everyone's posts an formulated an opinion/case against someone. I don't mean to say all your posts are worthless, but you mostly commented on what other people brought up rather than actively scum hunt.

I'd prefer to hear from havok himself on why he didn't vote. Your reason though (an interesting addendum btw, shouldn't he speak for himself?) doesnt make sense to me. He was there for the majority of the day, and he made enough posts accusing me of things that you'd think he'd have made a vote at some point. Other than responding to my posts and coming up with new ways to trap me, he had little else of substance.

[jmar]

Reasons:

1) seeing as how Holy was actually lynched I am very inclined to believe both Scum are on the wagon. So I want to more or less only focus on you three (Especially until havok comes back...)

What makes you say both? The town was so single-minded yesterday, this is something I noticed after rereading. Really, there was no othercandidate for lynch. It'd be perfectly feasible for both scum to stay off the wagon. I bet you would like to focus on us three, because it takes the spotlight off you and havok, a mistake I have already made multiple times today...

Here's what I noticed from rereading... (with regards to my activities)

havok came out of nowhere with a "case" against me. This is before the Holy wagon started a-rolling. We argue back and forth for a bit. Things settle down.

havok attempts to "bait" me. We argue about this some more, but I kinda drop the issue as Holy starts looking scummier and scummier.

Korlash proposes a no lynch. This trips my scumdar bigtime, since it contradicts what he said before. We argue, but again, I drop the issue as Holy continues to look scummy.

So basically, everytime I thought I saw something with havok or Korlash, I inevitably started to look back at Holy. Her mistakes were too big to ignore, and I think I allowed havok and Korlash to slip through the cracks.

2) You were the hammer on Holy. Plain and simple I always think the hammer deserves to be looked at more then others.

I was indeed. Why do you think that though?

2.5) You repeatedly went after Sir Torn yesterday, and even said Havok was your number one. Yet you clearly said you were willing to "Hammer Holy" and you did. If she was not your Number 1 then why hammer her?

Excuse me.

*steps out of room*

*yells WTF*

*comes back in*

Ahem... when did I repeatedly go after Sir Torn? I mentioned multiple times I'd like to hear more from him, and I didn't like that he was lurking. I wouldn't say I repeatedly went after him, not in a major way. I'm not sure what this has to do with the rest of your point though.

As for why I hammered Holy, it's pretty simple. I harped on havok all day , about how I thought he was scummy, with little effect. People barely took a second look at her. At the same time, I found Holy's posts incredibly scummy. If you want to reread I posted this, with reasons, numerous times. Yeah, havok was my number one, but with a deadline approaching, I didn't see 4 people jumping over onto a havok wagon. I was comfortable with lynching Holy after what we saw from her, and I was pretty surprised when she came up town.

3) You hammered her relatively quickly after Sir Torn placed his vote. I see this as you two trying to set up your defense of "We lynched her because of the deadline." And when you hammered her you said "The reasons I said before" and then gave an excuse as to why you did not post more. I cannot know if you were telling the truth or making up an excuse. Unfortunately if I were scum I would have hammered quickly and used an excuse to cover my reasonless vote too.

I did. I wanted to get in before the deadline. But I didn't lynch her

because

of the deadline. I lynched her because I thought she was scum. I did have to run to class on that day, but I think it was pretty well established what I though of Holy. Again, you can reread if you don't believe me, I made plenty of posts outlining why I found her scummy. I mean, I said I would hammer her earlier in the day. If you had issue with it, why didn't you bring it up then?

4) These quotes:

Logic says that the scum were probably on Holy's bandwagon. I realize this pretty much points to me. I'm town, and mith was obviously town. So that leaves me with Sir Torn and lionden. I don't find lionden too scummy, he's been very townish so far. Sir Torn has been lurking, but I guess that's his playstyle to an extent. He hasn't given me much to call him scummy besides being the last one to vote for mith. Like I said before, havok is still probably my top suspect, and Korlash I guess you're after that. But at lylo, I'd much rather go with the safer look at the people on the bandwagon. So I guess we should take a look at Sir Torn. I don't know, I have to reread.

That's exactly why I'm confused. If I was to go with my gut, I'd be voting for havok. But it's not a smart move at lylo because he wasn't on the wagon and I think at least one of the scum most likely was.

I've already said it, but basically because Sir Torn was on the bandwagon. It's the safer bet.

You keep saying you feel Sir Torn is a safe bet yet you do not Vote him... Kinda odd seeing as how yesterday you pretty much had your vote on him for most of the deadline (Unless I am mistaken)

You are mistaken, or you're grasping at straws. For most of the deadline, I had my vote on havok. I started off by voting Sir Torn, yes, and I kept my vote on him, but I didn't have a reason for it. It was a fun OMGUS vote because he voted me, leftover from the random phase. But I believe I changed to havok before the deadline or shortly thereafter. I was gonna give him a little while longer to show up before I voted him, but I was also dissuaded by the fact that he hadn't shown up in our other game either.

To me... It seems like you are fence sitting, on one hand you are ready to bus your scum partner, on the other you want to be ready to hop on a Havok or myself Wagon should they happen.

How's this for fence sitting? I'll start the wagon. Looking over both days, I'm ready to

Vote: Korlash

Reasons:

1) His jokes seem like a defense mechanism. I've noted this since the beginning. (okay, not the strongest argument... they get better)

2) His unwillingness to vote... as outlined in my last post.

3) His lack of substance to his posts. Sure, he's made a ton, more than anybody here, but do they really do anything? Is he actively scum-hunting? No. He comments on what others say, or makes a joke.

4) Connection with havok, who I believe to be his scumbuddy: It looks like they're actively not trying to have one, they've just been kind of "meh" toward each other. Korlash barely responded to any of my posts about havok- neither have really made a judgment call either way to each other. Notice Korlash's assessment of havok in his last post- "question mark." He doesn't say anything either way, which is what he's an expert at. With havok's first post, Korlash calls him "smart." havok appears to want to create the impression of not being partners by insulting Korlash's puns.

5) His reaction right here. It took someone shining the light on him to make his first post of real substance (I'd venture to say it's definitely his longest of the day, I could be wrong). If I've been his top suspect all along, why no vote? (The one after I hammered Holy doesn't count). His playstyle does almost a complete 180 here- he's no longer the nice guy who makes jokes- the claws have come out.

Lastly:

...because you're not on the bandwagon. Since I am, that eliminates one of the people off of it...

This just stuck out at me... Because you were on the bandwagon, it eliminates one of the people off the wagon. I take this as a very bad scum slip up. You are more or less saying (I think) "Because I was on the bandwagon, one of the people off of it has to be town." And thus you are more or less saying you are mafia. I really hate basing my vote on something like this but i think it was just a bad scum slip up.

Wait... what? I was saying because I know I'm town, that makes it less likely for both scum to be on the bandwagon, from my point of view, especially since I don't get a scummy vibe from lionden. How is that a slip up, or how does that mean I'm saying I'm mafia? From your point of view, sure- you see 3 suspects on the bandwagon, so of course you're gonna say it's more likely both are on. From mine, I only see two.

So there you have it... a "sort of" case against Jmar, with a "sort of" tie to Sir Torn as a scum partner...

Wait no I lied.. one other thing:

And once the deadline was on, he practically flat out refused to make a move on anybody. The person pushing him to make a vote? Mith, who turned up dead.

What, did you NK Mith so you could try and frame me today? I don't think it will work as any one of us (If scum) would have looked at Mith as the most obvious NK... Because you brought it up first, I am more inclined to believe you are scum trying to make your NK work in your favor by making me a scapegoat...

Ok so more then half of these are my personal feelings on the matter, but seeing as how we are in LYLO I have to go with my gut. And my gut says Jmar and Sir Torn...

I too am interested in hearing Havok's views.. and maybe a list from Lionden...

Here we get into WIFOM territory again. Because I did bring up "Mith as a resource to the town" and all that, couldn't I just as easily say you killed him to set me up, but I took the wind out of your sails by bringing it up first? That's circular logic. I'm just saying that the person who was pushing for you to make a vote and take a stance is the one who ended up with a bullet in his head. At the same time, I don't think his pushing you to make a vote was so obvious as to dissuade you from pulling the trigger.

[jmar]

My apologies for missing your vote. Still, I don't think it really destroys my argument, since you unvoted three posts later. It was barely noticeable, didn't even show up in a vote count.

I still don't understand how what I said could be a scum slip up. Am I missing something obvious? Because your logic is not making sense to me. Please explain what you're thinking in detail, because I don't see another way in which it can be taken (maybe because I'm reading it with the knowledge that I'm town?)

This stuck out...

So I did not vote to prevent any seconds before deadline hopping...

So, you wanted Holy lynched then? I mean, that's how I'm reading it. I'm not gonna lie, I wanted Holy lynched too, but thus far you've represented yourself as not wanting that to happen. You didn't want any other bandwagons forming at deadline, right?

[jmar]

I see now. It's very poorly worded, I agree. What I meant, and I'll agree with you that it probably doesn't come across that way, is it eliminates myself (one of the people) off of it (the bandwagon). You're looking at it as that eliminates one of the people (you and havok) off of the bandwagon (people who didn't vote). That's probably how I'd read it to, but in context that makes no sense.

No i wanted no body lynched... And thus I did not vote. Not that hard to understand... maybe hard to comprehend yes, hard to believe most likely, but plain and simple straight forward.

No, it's not straight-forward. If you're scum, which I believe you are, you do want somebody lynched. And you look better off in that regard if you do not vote. Thus you can want somebody to be lynched without voting for them. Now you said, and I quote again, that you didn't vote to prevent any last second deadline hopping. If you didn't want Holy lynched, then wouldn't you want a deadline hop to somebody else? And if you wanted nobody lynched, then were you advocating a no-lynch? (You did this once before, contradicting something you said earlier) We've already been over how bad a no lynch was for the town. No matter which way you slice it I don't see that statement lining up with you having the town's best interests in mind.

[jmar]

I just asked a question, you don't have to snap and start using profanity. I find that to be a huge scum tell btw, not that I could really find you any scummier.

You talk as if you knew Holy was town though... that's the vibe I get from "you were against killing one. But for the uninformed townies, a lynch is better than a no lynch. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, you can say you were against lynching one now (you used the word "kill" again btw), but for us who didn't know anybody else's alignment, a lynch was the way to go (unless of course you knew Holy was town? Hmm...) And we could do the math out again if you like but I believe it's been done twice already.

Then you go and do this...

All I wanted was to get to a night without making myself look too bad.

This is the scummiest thing you've said so far. That's the scum's goal. The town's goal is to hunt scum.

I caught you didn't I?

You're the one who's been caught, sir. Multiple times. I'm just waiting for everyone else to come in and see the light.

[jmar]

Err... don't know why there's a quotation mark before "you." Ignore that please.

[jmar]

Something else I noticed, rereading this very page...

However I do know for a fact at least one scum was on the wagon... because I am town... So... actually in my mind that makes Havok a bit more likely to be scum.. but I wont throw away the option both sum were on the wagon either...

5 Posts Later

1) seeing as how Holy was actually lynched I am very inclined to believe both Scum are on the wagon. So I want to more or less only focus on you three (Especially until havok comes back...)

First it's havok is "a bit more scummy" because at least one scum is on the wagon. Then you say "you won't throw away the option both scum were on the wagon" as if it's an afterthought, or a second option behind havok and one other on the wagon. Then, 5 POSTS LATER, you say you want to focus on the three on the wagon, and you're "very inclined to believe both Scum are on the wagon."?! You keep contradicting yourself, over and over. What gives?

While it does make a game very uncomfortable and annoying it is in no way a scumtell.

It certainly is if you've been a nice guy making jokes all game, and you suddenly have an outburst here. In fact, I think that's a huge tell. Your playstyle suddenly shifted completely. If you're so confident you've caught scum and I'm not bringing up a good case against you, you shouldn't be having outbursts.

Oh I was scum hunting, I found a scum, I got confirmed the scum, and now I am lynching the scum. I think I did my job really well...

How have you "got confirmed the scum?" Also, you haven't actively scum-hunted until now, which, coincidentally, was after I began taking a look at you and your posts throughout the game. I'm just gonna repost that quote of yours again, because if it doesn't scream scum I don't know what does...

All I wanted was to get to a night without making myself look too bad.

And I hope Havok gets back in time because I do not see your partner hammering you today

I bet you do. You need your scum buddy if you want to lynch me.

I do enjoy this last minute shuffle your going through though...

By "shuffle," do you mean "finding the scum, proving him wrong multiple times, and watching him dodge/ignore almost every question I've asked you so far?" And if you do, how are you enjoying it? Before you seemed pretty pissed off.

[jmar]

If you're gonna claim cop, stop pussyfooting around and do it already. I know you're not the cop if you're saying I'm scum, so my guess is your waiting to make sure Torn or Lionden don't come in and claim, which would ruin your plans. It's pretty obvious that you know you're screwed once Lionden and Torn read what I've written, so youre setting yourself up for a claim now while still leaving yourself room to wiggle out of it if one of them agrees with you or claims.

I'm not the cop, so... If there is a cop out there, DO NOT CLAIM right now. Wait for Korlash to say he's the cop, since that seems to be where he's going with "confirmation." Let's take this scum down.

[jmar]

Well, there's not much I can do now. It's on the rest of the town to see through this rather obvious lie. I hope one of you guys is the actual cop, because it'll make this easier. I understand it's hard to go against a claimed cop, but you have to remember we're at lylo and there's a 50/50 shot of there not being a cop. It's something very easy to lie about.

Look at my posts and Korlash's on this page. Read them carefully. You'll notice he has very little defense for any of my accusations, and his case against me is weak. Think about what you would do in his situation. His only play is to claim cop. That's something you can lie about. He can't make stuff up to get me lynched other than that, because it's not there. Almost every argument he brings up is soundly defeated. Lastly, do a reread. Look at the connection between him and havok. You'll find what I'm saying is true.

Korlash just confirmed for me that he's scum, so there's not much more I can say on the matter. But think about the facts, and I think it's pretty obvious. Let's turn this game around and lynch this scum.

Mod, can we get prods on everyone besides me and Korlash please? It's hard to move on without their presence. Thank you.

[jmar]

No... it's 50/50. It's either doc and cop, or doc and no cop... that's the second really bad probability mistake you made.

I never said it was a great gamble... I don't know how you can refute something I never said. It's a smart play for a scum IMO. The fact that you called it a gamble betrays your scumminess... it's not as much of a gamble if you're actually the cop.

The list is basically the entire last page. You responded to most of what I said, but you didn't really provide explanations for any of them. You would quote a bunch of sentences and respond to maybe one, and none of the reasons I saw convinced me of you not being scum. In fact, most of the points (the ones I specifically listed 1-5) you basically conceded to me (1, 4, 5 specifically, your defense for 5 set up your cop claim because you were starting to realize you'd been caught). If you want to backtrack some more and change some of your responses, go right ahead.

[jmar]

The problem is I'm the townie that knows he's scum. But there's no way I can prove that to the town. It comes down to whether my case against him was good enough to stand on it's own against the claim.

[jmar]

No... I already said I'm not the cop. I know he's scum because I'm town. And he's claiming he's the cop, saying he confirmed that I'm scum. But I'm not scum, so I know he's lying about being the cop, thus he's scum.

[jmar]

@Sir Torn: This is where his unwillingness to take a stance on anybody yesterday comes into play. He set himself up perfectly for a cop claim today. He could theoretically have investigated anybody last night because he didn't really definitively have a suspect yesterday.

@lionden_56: Think of it this way. People are just more inclined to believe a cop claim, but it's a logical fallacy. It was a gutsy move for Korlash, but even if he's counterclaimed it's his word against someone else's. One of us is lying. All things considered, it's 50-50 as to who could be lying. The thing that's gonna swing it in someone's favor is the arguments. Korlash's is basically "I investigated him and he's scum." I think mine are a bit more thorough.

I'm in a tough position, because I don't have a partner. That's basically two votes on me right there. It's up to me to convince both of my fellow townies to go against a claimed cop. So as risky as it was for Korlash to claim cop, he's in better shape than I am.

[jmar]

You misunderstood me (probably my fault because I'm not being completely clear.) It's 50-50 right now. Just because he claimed cop doesn't mean he's any more honest than I am. Korlash could be lying (he is lying, btw) because we have no way of proving he's not the cop. I could be lying (again, I'm not though) because I have no way of proving I'm town. The difference is the reasons behind this. Korlash's is I'm scum because he's the cop, something that he could be lying about. My reasons are laid out on the previous page, but I can't lie about those- my evidence is right in the thread.

[jmar]

To be honest this is unnerving... His partner should counterclaim no matter what... I suppose Havok can still do it but I was 100% certain Sir Torn was going to counter my claim... Hmmm...

My partner can't claim, because I don't have one. You're scum, remember?

No, I just didn't want to drop any "hints" or clues that cops may or may not do. This is my first time being a cop and so I figured I would try and stay below the radar. But I was telling the truth when I said I did not find any one o you guys suspicious...

That's a very vague and convenient explanation. Basically any claimed power role could use this as a defense. Also, you JUST SAID you had a few suspicions of me yesterday, in the SAME POST. That's contradiction #5404958, but who's counting?

You think yours are more thorough, I however see no way to get more thorough then a guilty investigation.

You're missing the part where that's something easy to lie about, while my reasons are foolproof- you can check the thread if you don't believe me.

Not really. If I am, and I am not, faking my claim then I would be sure to get 2 votes, you and the real cop. enough to lynch me come deadline. While on the other hand If I am telling the truth I am sure to get two votes, yours, and then you partner's 2 min before deadline... I am banking on the town having some faith in me here I I know, but the fact I am right makes me feel I am doing the right thing.

Unless there is no real cop, which is looking to be the case, which throws this whole statement out the window.

I already told you if you guys don't believe me I am dead. If I am faking it I am dead. If you do trust me I am dead tonight. Either way I die. At least I get to know I did my part! (also I did a good job of hiding the fact I was cop! yay for me! Seriously I am very ecstatic about this ^^)

Stop acting so noble. Your death doesn't really factor into the equation, because in everyone else's eyes, there's still a good chance you're scum (in my eyes, 100%). If you trust him, we're all dead tonight, because the scum will win. You say "either way you die" but again you're not factoring in the part where YOU'RE SCUM AND YOU WIN IF WE TRUST YOU.

I already told you I feel I answered all your stuff. If there is something you don't agree with or something you feel i ignored please refresh my memory. If not just cross your fingers you are able to survive until the deadline.

This wasn't really addressed to you, it was addressed to everyone else. I already know you're scum, remember? You confirmed it when you claimed I was scum with a cop investigation. So why would I still be debating my previous points with you? I'm not gonna give you an opportunity to backtrack and clarify your points now. If you feel you need to, the posts are all there for you. I was unhappy with a lot of what you posted because a lot of my points weren't addressed or they were addressed superficially or even conceded to me. But none of it matters to me now because you've revealed to me that you're scum.

Heres the bad news... Even if we lynch Jmar we still haven't won.

Yes, you and your partner have won if you lynch me.

I think you guys should post who you think is his partner or have some discussion about that for tomorrow... I was sure his partner would counter claim but I guess they are smarter then to out themselves... Hmmm... I still like Sir Torn but I need to read Havok's post when he posts it too...

Let's say, hypothetically you're town. You're dead tonight if I'm lynched, right? So then the burden of figuring out who "my partner" is wouldn't be on you. So how is their input as to "my partner" useful to you? According to you, you're about to die if I'm lynched. You've already said you think Sir Torn is my partner. You're certainly not getting ideas about who to investigate tonight, because you're gonna die. So let's see... what could possibly cause you to try and direct the town for tomorrow? Maybe you want to take the spotlight off me and you and get away with an easy lynch as the town discusses suspects for tomorrow? Way to throw in your scumbuddy's name at the end there to make it look less suspicious btw. Not obvious at all.

[jmar]

Haven't read all your points yet, don't have time right now. But I meant havok, for those reading along.

[jmar]

Again, I'm kinda rushing to finish a paper and I just skimmed your post here, but I believe you were saying that I said Sir Torn was the name you threw in as your scumbuddy. But I was referring to havok.

Here's the quote:

Hmmm... I still like Sir Torn but I need to read Havok's post when he posts it too...

You mention both Sir Torn and havok. When I said you threw your scumbuddy's name in there, I meant havok, not Sir Torn. I thought that was implied since I had already brought him up as my pick for your scumbuddy.

I'll probably post a more prolific response tomorrow.

[jmar]

Oh and seriously if you guys saw something he said in the last page that really stands out or that you feel I need to better explain on just tell me so. because it was just me and him and I know he was panicking cause I caught him I more or less took his BS in stride...

I was panicking? You're the one who flipped out and started dropping f-bombs, then claimed cop. Look at my posts yesterday... I was pretty calm the entire time, unless you said something ridiculous. Also, you hadn't claimed cop at that point... so why would I be panicking because you caught me? If I were scum, I wouldn't have known I'd been caught at that point. And your repeated attempts to go back and reexplain your defenses just shows even more that you know you're caught and you're trying to backpedal.

I don't want this whole part to get lost, because I think it's important, and Korlash conveniently only quoted a sentence of it...

Let's say, hypothetically you're town. You're dead tonight if I'm lynched, right? So then the burden of figuring out who "my partner" is wouldn't be on you. So how is their input as to "my partner" useful to you? According to you, you're about to die if I'm lynched. You've already said you think Sir Torn is my partner. You're certainly not getting ideas about who to investigate tonight, because you're gonna die. So let's see... what could possibly cause you to try and direct the town for tomorrow? Maybe you want to take the spotlight off me and you and get away with an easy lynch as the town discusses suspects for tomorrow? Way to throw in your scumbuddy's name at the end there to make it look less suspicious btw. Not obvious at all.

In response to this part...

[quote ="Korlash"]

So how is their input as to "my partner" useful to you?

It will be useful to them tomorrow. Duh... [/quote]

That makes no sense. The town will have time to discuss partners tomorrow, assuming we make it there and they lynch you, and we'll have a lot more info from who voted for who. Considering we're a day away from deadline and the only people voting are me and you, this isn't what we should be focusing on right now, by any stretch of the imagination.

I do agree with you though that this game is lost if we don't get some input (and votes) from the other townies. Otherwise I'm sure your partner will be showing up right before the deadline to seal the deal. I've presented my case and I really have nothing left to say, unless someone has a question about something I guess. It's on you guys now to make the right choice. I suggest a full reread, but if you can't find the time, read the last two pages carefully at the very least.

I hate to ask this again, mod, but can we get prods on everyone? I know they posted like two days ago but this game is shot if they nobody posts before deadline

[jmar]

...and I messed up the quote tags, and also wrote "they nobody." Doh. Preview before you post kids.

[jmar]

All that I ask is that you get in before the deadline... if we're gonna lose I'd just rather it be because I didn't end up convincing you guys that Korlash is scum, not because you weren't here while his partner lynches me right before deadline.

[jmar]

Is it so gutsy though? I think we can agree it's not that gutsy if Korlash is town. So, I'm gonna operate assuming he's scum, like I know he is anyway. There are a couple possible scenarios that could play out after he claimed...

Korlash claims cop, accusing me. There's no real cop. He's sitting pretty.

Korlash claims cop, accusing me. I counterclaim. Now it's basically my word against his, except he has the added benefit of a partner. He only has to convince one of the two remaining townies that he's telling the truth, and that's three votes.

Korlash claims cop, accusing me. Somebody else counterclaims (worst case). Now he's got two people who know, 100%, that he's scum. (Me and the cop that counterclaims). Still, he's got his partner voting with him, so it's two against two. He still has a good chance of convincing the final townie that he's telling the truth.

Now look at it the context of the situation. I was bringing a pretty hard case against him. He wasn't defending himself well, and he got pretty upset at one point. The cop claim is the only play for him. Before he claimed cop it looked for sure like he was going down. Also, how likely is it that he investigated me the night before (even he says he almost investigated mith, which seems more likely in my opinion if he really was a cop giving their arguments Day 1)? Then at the beginning of the day, he doesn't do anything. He waits for someone to make a move against him, and that person just happens to be the guy he found guilty? Please. Let's say he hypothetically was town. Was I really so scummy Day 1 that he thought he could bring me down without revealing that he was cop? I'm sure he'll claim he was looking out for his own survival in not claiming immediately, but I think it would have taken a lot more guts to claim right away. The way he did it was clearly out of desperation. Was it a risky move? To an extent, but again, he ended up in a much better position than me.

[jmar]

My post was in response to lionden, btw.

[jmar]

Anyways, Jmar's argument feels better to me, but the fact that Korlash had the guts to claim cop still holds some weight. I'm going to postpone my vote just a little bit longer. It'll be coming after I get back from work tonight.

It isn't gutsy. Being the actual cop I know what I am doing and so the only counterclaim I was afraid of was his partners. I didn't actually want to claim today, I jsut wanted to focus more on Jmar and really really take everything he said under a fine tooth comb and what not but the lack of activity pretty much sealed the deal we HAVE to lynch a mafia and so here we are.

I don't have much to say to this. It's pretty simple, Korlash is gonna maintain he's the cop and I'm gonna maintain he's not. I'd just like to say though that the quote was actually from lionden, for everyone reading along.

Adn even though I know yoru going to accuse me of "Only looking at one part blah blah blah"...

Because you HAVE done that. Multiple times. I think it's a good point to bring up, because it's TRUE. Novel idea, huh?

Yeah it was out of desperation. I was desperate that there was a deadline coming and we would LOSE! So the only option was to claim. If I was mafia I would have kept quiet and let the deadline roll in. At least I get to say I did something for the town this game! My sacrifice will not be in vain! <3

What? The deadline was 4 days away! And we had been arguing for 1, 1.5 at most. And there you go again with the noble BS.

*sigh*... I'll say it again.. I cannot remember you ever bringing ANYTHING good against me today aside from that one time I actually made a mistake... I have told you repeatedly to give me whatever the heck I "didn't answer" or what not yet you refuse too... You keep coming back to "Korlash's answers were BS and blah blah blah!" because that is your only saving grace. I guess your partner is too afraid to speak up because he fears the town will believe me and then he will be outed tomorrow... But I know he will be speaking up before the deadline... Only question.. will he Bus? Or will he go for the win?

Is it my only saving grace? Who's the one whose going back to revise his answers now that the deadline's upon us? I think it's your only saving grace at this point. Yeah, I do keep coming back to that because I believe it to be true. I'm not gonna plant your quotes into your lap and give you a chance to revise them, because I know you're scum, and nothing you can say is gonna convince me otherwise. Your answers have been there for three days now if you wanted to revise them, but you're only going to them now that the deadline is upon us. If anybody has any doubt as to what I'm talking about, look at the page. He'd skip some of my points, address only part of it, answer on of my paragraphs with one sentence, and oftentimes conceded points to me. And if you're wondering why "my partner" hasn't "spoken up" or counterclaimed, it's because I don't have one.

It's not a bad argument... The mere fact that there were only three active people all day is something you have in your favor. And it is something I could not prevent, nor can I actually defend myself on it. I got lucky with my investigation. My suspicions were right. Yay me! But I didn't "Not do anything" I waited for people to show up. And when I say only three people, one of which I knew was scum, and a deadline coming up o.O I was like... "F*** this!"

You've been using the deadline as a crutch for scummy behavior since the first one was placed on it. Get a new defense.

And which one of us actually made the first move I wonder... I could have sworn it was me...

Well, I feel that I brought the case against you first after I reread. In my head, I was about ready to vote for you. But you did indeed make the first vote. In terms of "move" I was talking about coming out and accusing someone of something scummy, but yes, you did place the first vote.

Your kidding right? After today I doubt the town will have time to do ANYTHING tomorrow... Damn lurkers... Which ever one of you is town between Havok and Sir Torn you suck... Ok maybe not but still... This deadline hurts you know...

Also a quick little "I think so and so is the partner" will not take up a whole lot of time here... I think your trying wayyyy to hard to make me sound like the one wasting our time. But whatever, I too would jump on little things to save my ass...

There is one issue at hand, and it's between you and me. Both of us have stated who we think is each other's partner. It's up to the remaining town to find out for sure, but we're in trouble with lack of input from other users already, as you stated. And a quick little "I think so and so is the partner" without reasons, is pointless, especially because from what lionden and Sir Torn have posted, they can't decide between the two of us... so how the heck would they be able to decide now who the partner is? This was a pointless and distracting statement. (BTW, a bunch of little things is how you find scum- and I also jumped on quite a few big things that you barely addressed, like your statement about trying to survive Day 1 without being too noticeable, or the tons of blatant contradictions you've made)

Ok i am going to do a once over Day two and see exactly what these so called good cases Jmar had on me are. I will post my opinions and then hope you guys come to the right Decision. Either way it has been fun playing with you guys! Go us! ^^

Seriously... Post back in a minute.. *Ok more like 30...*

Now that lionden and Sir Torn both posted they were slightly leaning toward me, you go back to reevaluate my cases, even though you've had three days to do so. I'm sorry, but I think your scumminess has been blatantly obvious when it comes to things like this. Then again, I guess I'm biased since you've confirmed that you're scum to me.

[jmar]

Wow... I'm in the middle of studying for an exam right now and have no time to post, and I'm sure you did this close to the deadline for a reason...

lionden, I can only hope you're Korlash's partner I guess, and havok shows up by deadline. But you're lynching me based on Sir Torn's post? Really? After all of that? For me, I think the answer was implied, but meh. I don't really get how it screams partnership, but if that's how you want to decide the game that's your choice.

I'm gonna TRY to do a PBP response to Korlash's ultra-post... maybe tonight at around 3 AM, or maybe tomorrow about 1 hour before the deadline... so watch for that, sorry I can't get to it sooner but this is absolutely the worst time for me school-wise.

[jmar]

I really need to stop using unclear pronouns, LOL. I was referring to Korlash. I guess thats what happens when he's the only person you talk to for most of the game.

As for Sir Torn, I guess if that's what you want to believe then believe it. I can't really defend his play, because I didn't make it, except for that if it feels like he's trying to tip people toward my argument, it's because he probably believes in my argument. But hey, I can't speak for the guy. All I can do is tell you you're making a big mistake.

All right... taking a break from studying *rubs eyes*... time to tackle Korlash and maybe salvage this game...

[jmar]

Well seing as how Jmar's death still leaves another day, I figured I will point other things out as well...:

I have nothing to do with havok, so I wont address this.

Post 295:

If I don't see a serious uptick in posting, you all will be getting a deadline (bad thing for town in lylo).

The treat of the deadline... Here is about the time where I figured.. Oh... I cannot do the same thing I did yesterday... And so I was beginning to see the need for outing Jmar...

Except that's not true either... you didn't really do it until after I reread.

Honestly I see think you did this to try and Bus Sir Torn... This is where I first began to think of Sir Torn as your most likely partner... As throwing his name out there would be safe for you.

You could say that. Scum do that often. But I was suspicious of Sir Torn, because he wasn't posting and he was on the bandwagon. My reread changed my opinion. You could apply that logic to everytime somebody is suspicious of everyone.

[quote="Korlash]
But you also put Havok as number one... So are you like me and would throw your own partner's name out there or would you be safe and say your partner is number one but try to get th focus on another? Hmmm... I didn't think of that one before...[/quote]

So you admit you'd throw your partner's name out there... interesting, since that's what I've accused you of doing. But this quote says nothing. This is what I'm talking about- a perfect example of you saying something without substance. You ask a question, then drop it and don't answer it. Which is it?

So far neither of us has really come up with a case on the other...

Your opinion. I think my last two pages have been pretty convincing.

Post 300:

... So you basically say "I think the people on the badndwagon are the ones we should focus on" More or less. then say me and havok are the two most scummy... Yeah... thats not making sense at all...

As I said I figured it was time to focus on you and thus here we have me taking a small crack at you. It is more sarcastic then an actual attack but I felt I needed more out of you if I was going to make a case without a claim.

You've played this passive-aggressiveness most of the game (making a joke like "lynch jmar"). I find it quite scummy, much less so than putting yourself out there and making a case against someone.

Post 302:

seriously I feel Sir Torn or you would be the most likely choices FROM the Bandwagon.. and because I am me I feel Havok is the most likely choice form OFF the bandwagon... Hmmmm...

This is all off his post 299 where I said I felt he was outing his partner. Thus why I felt Sir Torn was the other one most likely. *Although Lionden hasn't really done anything has he...*

Again you say nothing. You say 3 out of the 4 possible suspects could be suspects. You could cite this post if you were saying havok and Sir Torn were scumbuddies too. You don't say one is scummier than the other, you group us all together, then point back to it and say "see! I thought he was scummy!"

then I finish with:

]I actually feel both scum have a higher chance of being on the wagon... Which is why I have Sir Torn and you Jmar as my top two... No offense you know... Dang *Deadline*gunna make me go all Non votey again isn't it... Frick... Quick lets lynch someone now =P (Kidding...)

Again focusing mainly on you and who I think your partner is.

And also saying you're gonna go "non votey" again. But that went out the window as soon as I began thinking of you as a suspect, right?

Still no real cases brought up.. Interesting.. However I feel post 300 was the first "shot" taken. Although I bet you can argue post 299 was a small "shot" at me, but I don;t really think it was. So your statement I went after the person who came after me seems... Um... Bull crap to me.

Okay... it doesn't seem that way to me. I won't argue 299 was a small shot against you, to be honest you hadn't even really entered into my thoughts as a scum candidate yet. How is 300 a "shot?" You disagreed with me. Calling it a shot is a stretch at best. And two posts later is the famous post in which you say me, Sir Torn, and havok are all good candidates. So you could have gone after any of these three if they came after you.

Post 305:

That's how you feel, because you're not on the bandwagon. Since I am, that eliminates one of the people off of it, and I don't feel lionden is scum. I'm certainly not saying you and havok aren't scum, but the safe play is to lynch somebody off the bandwagon. The least likely scenario in my book is that you and havok are scum-buddies and both managed to stay off the bandwagon. If you are, you've done a good job so far. I'd like to vote Sir Torn right now to put some pressure on him, but it opens it up for a quick lynch, so I can't really.

This is one of the weirdest and most confusing post I ever read...

Agreed. Reading it I'm thinking I must have been drunk?

"Since I am, that eliminates one of the people off it." We already dicussed this so I will not bring it up again, but I said why this was odd to me.

Now that I reread it this is odd too:

"I'm certainly not saying you and havok aren't scum, but the safe play is to lynch somebody off the bandwagon."

If you think it is safer to lynch someone off the bandwagon, why even mention you are not saying we are not scum? It just seems oddly worded to me... So you ARE saying we aren't scum? Or you aren't saying we are scum? I just don't get it...

It's the same explanation I gave before. I did it twice in the same post. When I said "off" I meant "of the people on the bandwagon." It needs an "of" to make more sense. Think of it as me saying "the candidate should come from off of this list." It sounds weird, but it means from the list. Again, look at my other posts- I wanted to lynch somebody on the bandwagon at this point.



Post 309:

No, didn't mean that at all. Just because the other two aren't posting doesn't mean they aren't watching the thread.

Again I'll let lionden speak for himself.

Post 310:

It might not be though. It's very possible havok and Sir Torn are lurking, waiting to pounce, especially after a chance to talk at night. If I make a vote, I don't want to have to keep looking back at the thread to make sure nobody puts a second vote on him. Talking, they could have exchanged personal contact info, like AIM screennames or something. So the scenario could go (for arguments sake lets say you and havok are scumbuddies)

1) I place a vote on Sir Torn.

2) I go to bed.

3) You see this, chat up your buddy havok on AIM.

4) Both of you come in and place your votes.

5) The town loses Sad

Farfetched? A bit, but a vote's not worth the risk IMO at this point.

Again you mention Sir torn... But it is from your previous example.. However you claim you both to be town in the example and both me and havok to be scum. (I understand it was hypothetical)

Good. Then why are you bringing this up?

I think this could be a time where you are trying to make your partner look more "innocent" But again, it was all hypothetical.. But even that does not automatically mean I can disregard it...

Ohhh I see... you want to bring it up without "really" bringing it up, in another of your little passive-aggressive moves. I understand. This is the definition of reaching. Because I used Sir Torn as town in an example, that makes us scumbuddies? Please... it was for arguments sake, and I stated it as such.

[quote="Korlash]
So far all I have is stuff on who could be your partner.. and the reasons I think it is Sir Torn...

We could just all take a gamble and vote sir Torn here. If he turns out scum then even if when I die tonight we still have Jmar's investigation and we will win... But I would rather go for the sure thing myself... To late to debate this I think. [/quote]

Hahahahahaha... the cop is suggesting we lynch somebody other than his supposed "confirmed investigation?" If this doesn't scream desperation and scuminess, I don't know what does.

Post 318:

Day 2 deadline time. It'll hit at 11 a.m. EST Friday, November 16 (about one week from this post).

You know the rules -- this time it'll take two votes at deadline, three before. You read that right.

Shoot...

Pointless...

post 320:

This is ridiculous. We shouldn't have a deadline right now, they should be replaced if they don't respond to their prods- the majority of us are posting, but we can't really get anywhere without them. Anyways, if they don't show up I'm ready to vote Sir Torn.

I asked "Why him over sir Torn?" and you answered:

You asked why him over havok, but continue, please...

I've already said it, but basically because Sir Torn was on the bandwagon. It's the safer bet.

... In post 305 you said:
"but the safe play is to lynch somebody off the bandwagon." Now you say it is safer to lynch someone on the bandwagon.. Hmmm... Contradict much? [/quote]

We already discussed this, but you keep bringing it up. I've stated it's a grammatical misunderstanding and poorly worded, but I guess you want to keep focusing on it. Probably because you don't have much else to go with. The fact that you didn't bring this up when I made the post shows it even more. Quote some of my other posts when I talk about how the safe bet is somebody on the bandwagon... oh wait... that would make you look TERRIBLE.

Here's some, by the way...

Well I don't have too much to say I guess. Logic says that the scum were probably on Holy's bandwagon. I realize this pretty much points to me. I'm town, and mith was obviously town. So that leaves me with Sir Torn and lionden. I don't find lionden too scummy, he's been very townish so far. Sir Torn has been lurking, but I guess that's his playstyle to an extent. He hasn't given me much to call him scummy besides being the last one to vote for mith. Like I said before, havok is still probably my top suspect, and Korlash I guess you're after that. But at lylo, I'd much rather go with the safer look at the people on the bandwagon. So I guess we should take a look at Sir Torn. I don't know, I have to reread.

That's exactly why I'm confused. If I was to go with my gut, I'd be voting for havok. But it's not a smart move at lylo because he wasn't on the wagon and I think at least one of the scum most likely was. And the fact that nobody's really posting doesn't help me decide which way to go.

Skipping over some more Sir Torn and lionden stuff... I'll let them speak for themselves.

Post 332:

My reread brought up something I find very interesting... neither Korlash nor havok voted for anybody on Day 1

Oh that is great. your entire case against me starts off with a lie. Yeah... You have such a solid case![/sarcasm]

You brought this up already. I apologized for it, but I really don't think it changes the case since you unvoted, oh, 3 posts later?

And your point is? I did not see enough reason to lynch her, and so i was against it. Also I did not want to tip any of the scum's radars so I stayed more or less off of the other people. I actually find it funny the only person I voted was the scum XD

Except for the part where I'm town XD. My point, which I made before and you roundly ignored, was that as much as you claim to not want her lynched, you did nothing to prevent it, or do anything really. You can say you didn't want to trip off the "scum's radars" but this doesn't excuse you doing basically nothing Day 1.

Here's my argument...

So I did not vote to prevent any seconds before deadline hopping...

No, it's not straight-forward. If you're scum, which I believe you are, you do want somebody lynched. And you look better off in that regard if you do not vote. Thus you can want somebody to be lynched without voting for them. Now you said, and I quote again, that you didn't vote to prevent any last second deadline hopping. If you didn't want Holy lynched, then wouldn't you want a deadline hop to somebody else? And if you wanted nobody lynched, then were you advocating a no-lynch? (You did this once before, contradicting something you said earlier) We've already been over how bad a no lynch was for the town. No matter which way you slice it I don't see that statement lining up with you having the town's best interests in mind.

And Korlash's response? The F-Bomb (yes it was singular, I apologize).

All right guys... as much as I'd like to stay up an hour longer and finish responding to all of his points, I'm going back to studying and then going to bed. I have an exam at 9 tomorrow and honestly I don't feel like failing because of Mafia. I will be responding to the rest of them at 10 tomorrow morning, about an hour before deadline I believe. But uh... yeah. If I were to sum up my feelings, I'd just be repeating myself, so I'll save it.

[jmar]

Huh? I'm confused...

[jmar]

LOL, I only realized while I was walking to class that I had three votes on me... when I was first thinking about it I was like "he... must be scum!" That explains my "huh I'm confused" at the end there.

But good game guys. lionden was in a tough spot... I don't think I would have voted for me off something Sir Torn said, but hey, I can't say that for sure. It would have been nice to have havok there at the end, although he probably would have been least inclined to agree with me considering I thought he was scum all game. I guess I let Sir Torn slip by too easily, he made a great play at the end.

Good game, Korlash. It was fun arguing there with you at the end. I know things got heated but it was nothing personal. That "drunken" post really killed me... it was so hard to explain how I meant it to be taken without sounding scummy. I enjoyed most of your jokes and I dig the M:TG reference. The cop claim was well played, and you came out with that monster post at the end. Well done.

When you think about it we were in the absolute worst position after Day 1. We lost 2 townies, one of which was a doc, and there was no cop to counter a scum claim. And still, until the end there, I felt like we would pull it out. So good job by all- a very enjoyable game.

Muchos gracias to MeMe for modding, great job.

[jmar]

Not a big deal. They played well at the end, and the town was really handicapped after Day 1. You were in a tough spot, especially since havok never ended up showing up, we couldn't have really outright lynched Korlash anyway (what happens in case of a tie, just for curiosity's sake?). It was just frustrating to be in a position where I knew him to be scum and not be able to prove it to the town. But I think everybody interpreted your play as extremely townish, which was a good thing. I felt almost like I had you confirmed town TBQH. If you had turned up scum I'd be shocked.