Mafia 75: Return of the Mafia! TOWN WINS (really late)

[Nemesis]

Sucks the cop is dead, but yay so is the cult. The delayed recruit will be wandering around tomorrow with no friends. (Survivor is a fun role, right?)

Out of curiousity, why are some of the numbers in the list bolded and some arn't?

Mod Edit: (Note: This will now be my official colour, this will be added to the rules) The numbers are of no importance, and will be fixed.

[Nemesis]

Woah. How do you know...

1. There is a cult recruit?
2. This recruit is also 'delayed'?

1: Because while you chose not to assume anything about the delayed recruiter and asked what it could mean, I decided to go another way.

My way is by remembering every "delayed" action I've ever seen means "it happens later", so a delayed SK's kill won't show up until tomorrow, and a delayed cult recruiter won't have their recruitment go through until tomorrow.

2: If 1 is true then delayed would be an adjective used to describe the recruit.

For what's it worth, the recruiter is dead, so it isn't me... If I am right then the recruit doesn't know they will be cult yet, so it is as likely to be me as it is likely to be anyone else.

I love how I'm bandwagon worthy btw... You just claimed that someone investigating you will get a guilty result, yet I am the scummy one?

eh?
Am i wrong in thinking that a Bodyguard is another name for a Doctor?

Yes?

A Bodyguard is a protective role, but they usually die if they protect someone. (Unless they are an elite bodyguard.)

at first i was gonna ask what you were talking about, but on re-read, yeah, all we know is that we have a dead delayed recruiter, who said anything about a recruit?

What does a recruiter do? Recruits people, yes? So if there was a regular recruiter you would assume there is a cult member running around.

If you were a delayed SK, would you kill someone n0 so they'd die n1? Assuming the cultist works the same way, I'll ask you the same question; would you recruit someone n0 so they'd become cult n1?

So even if the recruit was delayed, they'd still exist tomorrow despite them being reduced to a survivor role.

[Nemesis]

And in my total of... lemme check... twelve or so games here, I've been scum a total of once, and SK a total of once. Saying I'm most likely scum in every single game I've been in is bad information.

Then you are due to be scum....

[Nemesis]

Reading post subject 31, I've searched mafiascum with a variety of keywords and haven't found a single game with a delayed cult recruiter in it, so I don't really understand how some people are claiming they know exactly what a delayed cult recruiter is. I'm guessing those people are just making assumptions about what they know?

Yeah, I pointed out I was already. Although for the record, it is possible for roles to not work until night X... It's just every delayed [role] I've seen with that particular label means the effect is delayed one night.

(Games with delayed SKs are fairly common and I'm basing most of this on those.)

stop talking about the cult recruiter. he's dead, and now there is no cult.

That is probably true, although tomorrow there could be a cult member around.

the next person who talks about the cult recruiter as if its going to help the town to do so is going to be personally murdered.

Meh, it started in the random voting stage... I'd say the cult discussion was no less helpful than voting for random people... And I'd also think at endgame that people would possibly like to know there is a possibility of a de facto survivor running around.

While it's not particularly helpful now, it's something to think about later maybe...

Congratulations on the stifling discussion though. Death threats are always fun.

Plus you get bonus points for leaving confused people's questions up in the air. They might take something for certain when it is guesswork and that's just asking for trouble.

So given your promise to kill me and your threat and post in general, I'm cool with lynching you.

Vote Rosso Carne

Partly for pre-emptive OMGUS (as I assume I've said enough to be personally murdered) and partly because discussion is always good IMO, especially when the game is still fresh.

[Nemesis]

Well his idea to bandwagon me despite not suspecting me wasn't the greatest and yet I do agree for some part. But he has already claimed, so a vote on him is a statement that such a voter is willing to lynch him (as opposed to willing to almost lynch someone, as most bandwagons stop when claims and stuff happen, BM has no realistic chance of anything happening)... For that reason the votes on BM arn't appealing to me as particularly pro-town right now, especially we're on page 4 in a fairly big game. (Which isn't to say they are scummy as such, just not helping.)

Although it is risky to claim "will be guilty if investigated", it is a possible scum play, so I'm not ruling that out... It would work pretty well for a NK immune SK, I think.

And before someone mentions it, my vote on RC fits some of my "not helping" opinion on BM's wagon. However, mine has the added bonus of him claiming vig when he doesn't have to, or at least pushing the boundaries of jokes.

[Nemesis]

Nemesis pushing the BM wagon for the OMGUS reason, not the "I don't believe his miller claim" reason.

Everyone attacking Rosso for saying something that he would say.

The problem with this is I am in fact not pushing BM's wagon... I'm voting for Rosso for something he would say.

[Nemesis]

I mean that, yes i claimed Miller, but for gods sake look at HOW.
I claimed it at the earliest opportunity, at the VERY START of the game. You really think if i was scum i would be so forward and claim a role so controversial like that?

How should I know? The most experience I have with the Miller role is on a 9-person game in a chat room. It would seem like a role to call as scum, however. If you'd call it at the very start or not I wouldn't know.

Normally scum dont like to claim early as it means they cannot adapt later on, not to mention that they can be countered.

You think a counterclaim of miller would mean that one person was scum and one person was a miller? You don't think it could be easily dismissed as 2 millers in a 30 player game being possible?

Have you ever tried any risky gambits before? (Especially as scum.)

IMO, claiming miller probably isn't enough to get you lynched, especially as you claimed early. So it may be a fairly safe gambit for scum that are likely to be investigated. So I don't see your early claim as something scum would never do. I think that's WIFOM at best.

And Rosso Carne is tired of people mentioning the cult recruiter. He's not the only one, but because he (probably) joked about killing people who continue the speculation of what "delayed" means, he got voted.

Well the fact that even you arn't sure that it was a joke doesn't help him. And as for the speculation about the recruiter, it's discussion. I way prefer talking about something like that to talking about nothing.

I just hate the threat of "shut up or die"... Rosso contributed to the discussion with that? Plus he hasn't even responded to the post I voted him for, so it's not like the bandwagon has even got to the "worthy of defence" stage yet.

Nemesis, you were pushing it earlier, which was what I was referring to.

That was only to point out the irony of BM's response to my original post. I didn't suggest we lynch him based on his first post. I just wanted to clarify I was actually in the last section of stuff you don't like.

[Nemesis]

EBWOP: I have awesome tag skills. Sorry about that.

[Nemesis]

Yeah, he didn't contribute, but he's not the only one to not contribute. There's lots of lurkers. I think lurking is more suspicious that being angry.

It's not just his lack of contribution, it's more attempting to slow discussion while adding no alternative topic. Lurkers don't try to stop everyone else from talking.

So, at this point, continuing to discuss what the possibilities are there reeks of scum trying to misdirect attention and distract from the buisness at hand.

Um, the discussion started on the first game post. The "buisness at hand" you speak of would be random voting. You are saying that distracting people from that with actual discussion is a strong scumtell?

The only thing we know for sure we have a mafia family and a serial killer, and they night kill.

We know both of those are 100% true? How?

yet I used a hypothetical example to prove that the speculation is worthless.

This point always comes up in day 1. You didn't prove speculation is worthless, you just proved that this is a closed setup...

i meant personally murder as in like bombs and stuff

Oh, so it was a baseless non funny threat.

i feel it will be better being confirmed town later though

You can actually be confirmed town? This isn't another one of your statements you can't follow up?

Ok,

Unvote

.

I think we still have to worry about the Cult. If the leader made a recruitment down there, then that guy is probably still out there, most likely with control of the Cult handed down to him. In the games I've seen with a cult, If the leader dies, the recruiting ability gets passed on.

I've seen some backup cult leader type roles. But not that often, and usually everything wouldn't be setup like that from n0. I suppose it is a tiny possibility, but until two culted people die, I don't think worrying about a cult is actually a good way to spend your time.

This is my first game in New York. The board description says: "This forum is for games with basic roles only." What roles does that rule out? Surely some psuedo backup cult leader isn't a basic role?

[Nemesis]

The only thing we know for sure we have a mafia family and a serial killer, and they night kill.

We know both of those are 100% true? How?

As for the SK, i'm pretty sure that the gruesome kill flavour belonged to an SK.

Probably but Matt said "we know

for sure

" there is a SK. There's no way to be 100% sure of this... Unless you are the SK.

When a recruiter dies, the recruits are free 99% of the time. don't debat the logistics of the cult role,

Isn't that what you're doing?

Emphasis added to aid in your reading comprehension.

Well if you've only just formed this opinion, how can you agree with what Rosso said on page 3?

I, for one, hope Rosso did not mean it as a joke.

That implies you have thought talking about the cult was a waste of time for a while.

[Nemesis]

The only thing we know for sure we have a mafia family and a serial killer, and they night kill.

We know both of those are 100% true? How?

As for the SK, i'm pretty sure that the gruesome kill flavour belonged to an SK.

Probably but Matt said "we know

for sure

" there is a SK. There's no way to be 100% sure of this... Unless you are the SK.

Throat-Slit seems to be a pretty big tell. lol
Note also, the difference between the other 2 kills. I didnt notice before, but 1 is 'shotgunned' and the other is just 'shot'.

BM

A tell yes, but it's not certain. It could be a weird vig or anything... While it is probably a Serial Killer's kill, it isn't 100%. It isn't a fact we have a SK, therefore the guy who said speculation is a waste of time, was speculating himself...

Granted there's probably more chance of us having a SK than someone waking up tomorrow to find out they've been culted, but neither are certain and they both have a fairly good chance of being true.

[Nemesis]

Well if you've only just formed this opinion, how can you agree with what Rosso said on page 3?

Because this game had a (thankfully) remarkably short random stage, and by page three had rolled around it was over.

And yet even now people are voting without reasons and acting like we're still making random votes. So I'm of the opinion that this game went to speculation and discussion of kills instead of random voting for early bandwagons to start. If page 3 didn't have that stuff, it would be easy to fall back to page 1 habits.

[Nemesis]

EBWOP: That probably should have been "would have been easy"...

[Nemesis]

It's something I wondered about, but the death scene didn't look like it was a recruit gone wrong. Plus I am unsure on when he'd die or even if he'd die. (The delay could have flavour that would protect him against that kind of death.)

[Nemesis]

Honestly, I'd rather believe we have 2 mafia groups rather than a vig who's firing into the crowd. I'm not one to direct the vig, but if that was you, please hold your fire until you actually have suspicions.

I'd guess we have 2 mafia groups and an SK rather than just 1 mafia group and an SK.

The last 30 player game I saw had a 4 man scum group, an SK and 2 cults... So I think thoughts that there is only a scum group and an SK left alive is probably wishful thinking. Unless the scum group has like 8 people...

If we had a vig, I could see him/her firing into the crowd n0 though, based on the theory that 2 random lynches a day vs NKs would be better than 1 random lynch per day vs NKs. It's newbie logic, although it's also Fritzler logic. Alternatively an overeager vig might have to shoot every night.

Despite the fact that most vigs wouldn't fire blindly, I don't want to rule it out. There could be docs or roleblockers saving us kills... We could wake up tomorrow with 4 kills. So I don't think 1 set of kills is enough to give us enough information to conclude how many factions are anti-town.

[Nemesis]

And then we're arguing about whether or not to do something that either did or did not already happen.

Alternatively you are debating whether or not a vig should be firing into the dark... If the day ended now, a vig might think they have enough information on someone to shoot them... People's views on this would be interesting and not entirely pointless.

Although I leave my standard clause of mafia discussion must have already had this discussion.

[Nemesis]

Happy scumday WhoMe and happy birthday Matt_S.

Thenextepisode, do you have anything else to add? I think that's your second post, so do you have any new views since your last one?

[Nemesis]

yea we need to get back to scum hunting and calm down on the vig talk, the game has slowed i been gone for 2 days and nothingf has happened, oh and oejo why u vote on the next episode so fast?

The vig talk was the only thing happening... It doesn't actually stop people from talking about other things too. When the vig talk stopped, all other talk virtually stopped.

i dont really see any scum hunting going down

How do you think this works?

You'd made 2 posts before posting this. So either you wern't scumhunting yourself, or you were trying not to post much so people couldn't analyze you.. Or both.

Talking about "circular logic, talking about setups, whter the vig should kill N0, cult recruiters, etc" has got to be talking about absolutely nothing...

[Nemesis]

If we do have a vig, I don't think he killed last night.

I agree. Guessing kill types based on one set of kills isn't that solid.

I'd expect him to kill tonight though.

Although, I'd half expect a doc or roleblocker to be lucky on one of the two nights.

Then again, there's always a potential SK no killing.

[Nemesis]

Also, can I have a link to the game you were scum and the game you were SK in please?

Alternatively, add links your wiki page, because some people are lazy.

[Nemesis]

Then again, there's always a potential SK no killing.

Nemesis's last comment= WTF!?

You don't think a Serial Killer would

ever

choose not to kill?

It is theoretically possible that a Serial Killer would not kill. Whether it is likely is another question, but I think it's possible for a Serial Killer to no kill. Whether it is to setup a safe claim, to sow seeds of doubt about a Serial Killer existing, to make the town worry about a cult, etc.

There is always a tiny tiny tiny possibility that some SK tries such a tactic.

[Nemesis]

but I am used to town vigs having restrictions placed on them

Don't count on that. I've seen more overeager vigs than those vigs. (Although personally I don't think the vig killed.)

Nanosauromo, are you happy with your 3 posts since the game began? Do you feel confident that your posts per day will increase in this game?

[Nemesis]

could someone explain the miller role to me please? OK when investigated they come back as guilty, do they get any protown powers also, or are they just a vanilla who looks bad if investigated?

The basic miller role.

They can get pro-town powers in addition to being a miller, but a miller doesn't actually come with any protown powers. Sometimes un-nightkillable townies are made millers.

Generally a miller is just a vanilla townie who will make cops get a guilty on them though.

[Nemesis]

jesus christ...can we please quit talking about who we think are town?!? It paints a target and really helps no one but scum!

I disagree with this completely.

[Nemesis]

Oh and Skitzler, while I appreciate the 2 town - 2 scum... It doesn't give you a reason to not post anything else. Besides, including yourself in the 2 town is pretty much pointless as everyone would include themselves in the 2 town thus making it 1 town, which doesn't quite work.

[Nemesis]

I noticed, I didn't include it in my original post because it had already been said, then added it because I realized that you were the one disagreeing with him and thus it might be seen as a defence rather than honest opinion.

However, I'm a little curious why you waited to FoS Skitzer over it. (Presumably I didn't tell you anything you didn't know.)


Also I blame Fritlzer for the typo in my last post.

[Nemesis]

jesus christ...can we please quit talking about who we think are town?!? It paints a target and really helps no one but scum!

I disagree with this completely.

other than getting a stance Day one where people are to use later in a reread...how does the telling who we think are most likely town helping anyone but mafia? A concenus of a town player, lets the mafia know who to eliminate, keeping the scummiest players around to confuse the town.

Other than the reason you've mentioned, it can can generate discussion, it asks people for reasoning so it can make someone seem scummy or pro-town, the scum doing it would be interesing, it helps us generate a well reasoned bandwagon, etc.

The only reason it is bad is the one you've listed, and I'd be surprised if there arn't claims before the end of the day, so factor those in, factor

people

the scum want to kill in, factor in all the other things and the lists and the lists don't look that bad.

The scum are the informed minority, they really wouldn't benefit from the lists as much as we would. Besides, if they really cared then they could probably read through the thread and find the people most people think are pro-town anyway.

Then,

if

the scum want to target someone on the list, they then have to worry about whether a doc would protect the obvious choices and have those kind of thoughts.

So what happens if, say, the Mafia doesn't eliminate that player... does he or she become a suspect by default, and thus loses their 'townie' status?

No, nothing happens to the person's status. All that this line of thought will do is result in WIFOM and other non-helpful things. Chances are that the most pro-town people will do things themselves that change people's opinions of them.

I don't think outing as a townie is that bad, not like everyone will believe you.

If you are saying that as town, making a list of townies and thus giving a townie a status of appearing to be pro-town isn't bad because people won't believe you, you have missed the point.

It's not about whether scum believe you, they already know who the scum are. It's about them killing one of the most trusted townies.

Your word choice is a little odd. Surely the only town role that knows whether someone is town or not is a mason that has had their partner mod-confirmed. (A cop wouldn't be sure of their sanity yet, and we're already down a cop.)

So why did you use the word "believe"? Surely you don't actually know alignments yourself...

People are questioning Battle Mage, he's answered all of the questions adequately, and he's still under suspicion.

I don't like that.

Well he's a miller, despite fielding questions pretty well, there's always going to be suspicion on him. I expect him to be vigged fairly soon anyway, so I'm not that bothered about his lynch at present.

I suggested Jester because its a dangerous role, however we can't worry about a Jester until we have some sort of proof of that. As Townies, our only power as a group is the lynch, so having a role that reverses that into a negative causes me to hold my tongue. However, I find it unlikely that Jester's are played often (I wouldn't really know, just guessing based on other comments). Therefore I disregarded my statement. I think, while the chance is there, the odds of having a Jester in this game are minimal and therefore we can vote, not so much safely, but more securely.

There shouldn't be a Jester in this game. The only time I'd worry about one is if a role cop or simular tells me there 100% is a Jester in the game. Until then I'm not going to worry about one.

Because you can never disregard a role completely, thats just a bad move in general. So I'm saying we should realize that there is the possibility, however unlikely, of a Jester, but that we can't let that stop us from trying to find the real killers here.

Even if you think there is a possibility of a Jester being in the game, what are you going to do differently?

-----

Sorry, I missed a few days and had quite a lot to respond to. Also, I may be around slightly less as I'm getting a new laptop set up in the next couple of days. (You probably won't notice it, but if you do, that's why.)

[Nemesis]

Nemesis and Antithesis, I've liked your contributions to the game so far but I've noticed that neither of you are currently voting. Where do your suspicions lie at this point in the game?

Off the top of my head:

VanDamien, WhoMe? and TheSweatpantsNinja strike me as slightly scummy. But I don't really have anything concrete. I don't particularly trust anyone either at this point. I've got barely anything solid on anyone. Since Rosso Carne said he was confirmable, I've mostly been waiting for something to happen that would merit a lynch, or at least a decent push as at the moment I'm not getting relyable reads from anyone. oEJo's last vote appeared to be scummy when I first saw it, but the amount of people that immediately jumped on it led me to wonder... Some of the votes on him seemed to be slightly oportunistic and the vote itself isn't something I could happily lynch someone over.

Just a question, which may or may not be better put in another part of the forum, what does FoS stand for? The S is probably Scum, but I can't figure out the rest...

Finger of Suspicion.

If you don't understand other abbreviations, check outthe Wiki abbreviations page.

[Nemesis]

EBWOP: The off the top of my head comment is supposed to mean - without rereading to find reasons why I think they are scummy... Just based on gut and suchlike and therefore fairly impossible to defend against, thus I didn't mention them until I was asked.

[Nemesis]

That reminds me. BM is probably going to get vigged soon. Why are we lynching him now?

I appreciate day 1 lynches are often called random, but I still don't see why we are lynching him now rather than later if he is still alive.

Despite all the possible day 1 lynch randomness arguements I can think of, if the vig kills tonight, it will surely be more 'random' and have no chance of someone claiming to save themself.

So I'm just curious at the moment.

[Nemesis]

If we treated him like 100% town, I was hoping that the scum would NK him.

I really doubt that would have worked, if Killa Seven wouldn't have mentioned it, someone else would have... Or the scum would think for themselves... Or the scum would want to kill power-roles or a particular person anyway. Anyone can see he's just confirmed that a cop investigation on him will get a guilty if the cop is sane.

And if no townie noticed this, the scum would have done. (And they'd be nice enough to tell us.)

Also, if we could lynch armlix, and he came up scum, we would see BM as practically confirmed,

The attempts to confirm BM are getting old already... He's unconfirmable, the only lynch that could confirm him, would be his own.

BM, just tell us why you FoSed Ninja. It could be for a dozen reasons and everyone mentioning the possible reasons would just make it appear like everyone was against him. Besides, personal immunities are over-rated.

[Nemesis]

I'll take your response to my FoS as 'i dont have a clue'.

I have about 4 clues, I see a few reasons why you might have FoSed him and I don't see the point of the guessing game, it has quite a few flaws.

And I didn't say vanilla townie were confirmable, I just said you arn't.

he seems to be subtly trying to fight both arguments. On the one hand he declares that he doesnt think BM (me) is scummy, and yet on the flipside, he gives reasons why there is reason to doubt me. But it is not this alone which i find scummy-more the order. After stating that i am not confirmed town, he seems almost anxious to express his view of non-aggression towards me.
Its been a long time since i gave a psychiatric analysis of a post, but in the past its been good.
Anyway, its worthy of a vote for the moment.

A similar thing has a high chance of happening with the "guess my FoS" thing you're doing. Anyone who responded to you would have to point out things against SweatPantsNinja then there's a chance of someone pointing out they don't actually think SweatPantsNinja is scum, they're just saying reasons why you might think he is.

Scum won't tunnel vision other scum, but townies can tunnel vision other townies. This is a one-way link--if armlix is scum, you are town, but if he's town, you're undecided.

It could just be distancing, or one of them could be the SK... They could be from opposing scum families or anything. We don't know what is in this game, I don't think we can be as simple as that.

[Nemesis]

rosso didn't vote me, he "killed" me.
he might be a dayvig, he might be joking.
either way, its not a vote, so theres only one vote on me from incognito.

Again he pops into the thread the moment the spotlight is flashed in his direction.

But at least he was being useful. Even though he was repeating something already said in the thread. The Rosso wagon was looking to be in full swing, despite Rosso claiming earlier that he was confirmable.

---------

Killa Seven, upon rereading your posts I've found you don't write more than one sentence per post, do you have a post restriction or arn't you a big talker?

[Nemesis]

EJ only has an O at the start and end of his name. "oEJo"... Are the "kills" meant to make it look like you are voting or what? To constantly do it as a joke would be odd... But you don't have a vote restriction that I can see, and certainly one of the mods doesn't.

[Nemesis]

No. In post 6 he voted.

I know, last time all the mod did was count the kill as a vote.

Yes it would.

Is he still voting Ninja from post 6? I'm not sure if he's unvoted or what.

[Nemesis]

Even though I'm fairly sure it isn't applicable,

Unvote.

Can anyone tell me that the reactions created by my voting are NOT going to be useful later? Especially after some of those players' roles are revealed?

Is being able to see the future a requirement for this game?

--------

TLP strikes me as scummy, but lately BM has been sending my scumdar out of control.

Skitzer is really hating a Nano lynch. First he goes for Killa Seven, then switches to TLP. It looks like he's trying to drag people from Nano.

RossWilliam's vote late on just adds to the already building list of scummy things he's done so far.



I think I'll

FoS TLP

for the weird unvote as soon as you are questioned, with not actually thinking the person you are trying to lynch is scum as a secondary reason.

My vote goes to RossWilliam though,

Vote RossWilliam

. It's far less dangerous than voting TLP as TLP is practically at the gallows. Should any more votes go on RossWilliam, I will explain my vote a little more... But at the moment I don't think I need to.

[Nemesis]

Take into consideration the speed of the wagon. He'll be asked to claim after a few more votes, the bandwagon is very serious and very fast.

Although my point was, both are scummy and I'd rather not be part of a quicklynch.

[Nemesis]

unvote, vote: Matt_S

willing to give you the pressure you want

So, do you actually find me suspicious, or are you just eager to get a claim? How about RossWilliam for an alternative wagon?

Rosswilliam might be a fun alternative wagon, but I'm not sure I like you dangling a claim in front of people like you did. (The way you did it was odd.)

Bandwagon analysis is thrown off by people just voting to get claims.

And is it just me or does WhoMe? seem only to pop up when someone is said against him?

[Nemesis]

it has been well over a month and we are on page 30, we are going around in circles and we have a ton of information under our belts...I for one dont really know who is scum and my vote is based on little scraps of scumminess. Antithesis is right, we need someone to lay out a case on someone else, but there just isnt any solid information Day 1 to really push a case. soo,

Mod, I think it is time to set a deadline!

Unvote. Vote: Curiouskarmadog

Deadlines are good for scum, the way they work is good for scum, the frantic towns deadlines create are good for scum, the stupid rush to vote anyone with any votes is good for scum. Asking for one is not the most pro-town thing to do.

Someone had already brought this up and the town said no, so asking the mod for one is against the will of the town... Being in a position to say "don't vote for me, vote for the person who brought it up" is a nice position to be in, but I'm skipping that and just voting for you.

I for one dont really know who is scum and my vote is based on little scraps of scumminess.

Then why are you asking for a deadline? If you don't have a clue who to vote, why are you preparing an excuse if you choose incorrectly?

Antithesis is right, we need someone to lay out a case on someone else, but there just isnt any solid information Day 1 to really push a case.

We need a case but there's no evidence... So let's all vote no lynch or vote for something based on something tiny just to get a lynch... Great idea.

If you are incapable of making a proper case against someone, then why do you think a deadline will help others do this?

-------------------

Imat your mistake was [Quote "namehere"] you forgot the second set of inverted commas.

[Nemesis]

Nemesis, deadlines can be retracted..deadlines force choices and BWs, much can be learned from this,

Yes, some can... Although a mod won't always jump through hoops for you and set/retract deadlines when it is good for you.

As for the forcing of choices and bandwagons... Anyone can join a wagon giving the excuse that a lynch is better than no lynch. Somehow people stop being able to be held accountable.

right now, all we have are scraps of scumminess that people jump on until someone else does something slightly scummy. We are going to keep going around in circles until something really sticks out. I think a deadline will do just that. Force people to start scum hunting and stop lurking (or at least answer for their lurking)...force scum to act, hopefully they will trip up in the process.

Scum hunting with a deadline usually ends up at voting for whoever has the most votes. Lurkers may still lurk, especially now there isn't time to pressure them into talking.

If conversation is heated, I would expect that Mod to delay the deadline, espeically in a game this size..deadlines are not bad.

Deadlines themselves give scum way more power to lynch who they want if it is a half majority deadline, a full majority deadline gives a higher chance of a no lynch. Neither of these are particularly good for the town.

The discussion that deadlines create is usually hasty and panic induced, there is no guarantee that anything good will come of it and there's plenty of potential for bad things to happen because of them. Deadlines are bad...

Nemesis, what had the conversation dwiddled to before I asked for a deadline? Answer me that, then tell me why asking for a deadline was anti-town again? Look how much conversation has spun off that alone.

The conversation hasn't moved on because of the deadline yet. All we have is me accusing you and if you are town and you were doing something intended to help the town, then you have no positives to take from this yet. I can't see anything else the deadline has done that might make up for all the bad things it could do. We're pretty much still going round in circles, we still pretty much have the same lynch candidates.

If I was trying to hide the fact I wanted the deadline, why did I say it in game, versus just PMing the mod for one?

I don't think I said you were trying to hide it... But this is a null-point anyway, because you could see this as a powerful pro-town move and openly did it to look more pro-town. Else you might have not realized some of the people not wanting a deadline would rather lynch you for your suggestion than lynch someone who has been in the spotlight all game. There are plenty of reasons why you might have posted it in thread... But as I say, it's a null-point full of WIFOM and intention guessing.

[Nemesis]

so was my asking for a deadline anti-town or a powerful protown move?

Nem, you thoughts on others who support a retractable deadline? What about the first person you originally brought it up?

I think it was an anti-town thing to do.

Supporting a retractable one seems questionable, more in a misguided sense than a scummy one though.

For the record, "retractable" wasn't in your request.

Mod, I think it is time to set a deadline!

EDIT: I think I agree with those discussing a deadline, due to the current length of Day 1, but I also feel the game is fairly active as well, so I will set a deadline for 2 weeks from now for Saturday 22nd March 9.00pm GMT.

The mod edited his post, thus I'm giving you most of the credit for the deadline existing.

As for WhoMe? who brought the deadline, he asked the town what they'd think of one... You on the other hand directly asked the mod for one despite the majority of people being against a deadline, plus the conversation moving on.

[Nemesis]

[quote="Peers"]

Vote: killa

Yeah, I'll join the wagon. Let's see if we can get a worth-while claim out of this.[/quote]

This screams scum to me, maybe too much so. But with the timing of the vote and everything, it just seems to be scummy.

[quote="Khelvaster"][quote="Imat"]Ok, not that everyone has the same opinion, but I'm really getting tired of people hiding behind the Meta. How people play the game takes a conscious effort. Therefore its not all too difficult to change the way you play. There's no possible way you can disregard Scumminess on the wisdom that "This is just how they play." So What? If thats how they play, lynch them every game. Scumminess should not and can not be ignored because thats just how they play. If they're lynched for playing like that, lesson learned. If not, we come to this situation where they could act as Scummy as they want and people will DEFEND them. Meta is NO excuse not to lynch. For all of you who believe Meta is equivalent to the Bible of Mafia, you're only making it harder for the Town to win. So please, lose the Meta idea that seven and Rosso, or any other player for that matter, are untouchable, it should not be considered at all in this lynch. And, back to my comment that play style can change: If they play as Town and act a certain way, whats stopping them from acting that same way as Scum with the knowledge that people will see this and say "Hey, they must be Town again." The only the holding them back is their own intelligence, and to insult that would be condescending. In other words, they ain't dumb, don't treat them as such.

And armlx, what about those two comments makes them "Good posting?" Do you have nothing of your own to add?[/quote]

Wow...this is the most manipulative post I've seen. Ever. You are trying to convince us that, in this game, it's best to lynch someone who we believe is town so that in other games those people will act better. I don't buy it. You're chasing a quicklynch.

Vote: Imat

[/quote]

He's only saying to lynch the people who act scummy... I don't think its vote worthy. I think your twisting of the post is a little scummy though.

[quote="Battle Mage"]this is shitelogic. You are making the assumption that people play intentionally scummy in the first place, and are thus easily able to change. If peoples natural play is viewed as scummy, it shouldnt be them who have to adapt, rather it is their fellow players who should learn to get a perspective on things. And tbh, if you come into games i play with some long term policy lynch strategy that will probably lose me a good few games, in the hope that one day, it might change something about that player, then you go on my official 'Evil' List. You cant lynch someone on the grounds that you cant read them and they COULD be scum, but you actually have no clue either way! -.-

BM[/quote]

Unfortunately this is for the most part true... A lynch all people with a scummy playstyle philosophy just gives you a scummy playstyle and makes yourself a candidate for your own lynches.

They never change.

[quote="curiouskarmadog"]speaking of not scum hunting, I am still waiting for Nem, to address my questions.
[/quote]

My apologies. I'll get right on that.

[quote="killa seven"][quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote="killa seven"][quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]ugh, let's lynch killa then

Unvote Vote: Killah Seven

[/quote]
wtf does no one explain votes now.[/quote]We have a deadline. I don't need reasons.[/quote]
and i got bw for my vote on lloyd.. the nerve of this guy. ima go back and see what you have done at all in this game.[/quote]

The only scumhunting you'll do is when someone votes for you?

------------------ Here is my post that CKD replied to: ----------

[quote="Nemesis"][quote="curiouskarmadog"]so was my asking for a deadline anti-town or a powerful protown move?

Nem, you thoughts on others who support a retractable deadline? What about the first person you originally brought it up?[/quote]

I think it was an anti-town thing to do.

Supporting a retractable one seems questionable, more in a misguided sense than a scummy one though.

For the record, "retractable" wasn't in your request.

[quote="You"]
Mod, I think it is time to set a deadline![/quote]

[quote="The Mod"]EDIT: I think I agree with those discussing a deadline, due to the current length of Day 1, but I also feel the game is fairly active as well, so I will set a deadline for 2 weeks from now for Saturday 22nd March 9.00pm GMT. [/quote]

The mod edited his post, thus I'm giving you most of the credit for the deadline existing.

As for WhoMe? who brought the deadline, he asked the town what they'd think of one... You on the other hand directly asked the mod for one despite the majority of people being against a deadline, plus the conversation moving on.[/quote]

[quote="curiouskarmadog"]and those who support it?

umm, that that really isnt the facts was it?...the conversation got moving AFTER I asked for the deadline, why are you misrepresenting the facts?...look at the conversation (content and frequency) before I ask for it and after....Nem, I would actually like you to comment on this, I am sure you want to back up your "facts"?[/quote]

Those who support it are few and far between. I suppose some people like being rushed into things... I don't know. Haste generally doesn't help causes.

I love the last line, I'm fairly sure I don't mention facts in my post at all... You do a bunch of times, you called them facts.

And I actually went back to your deadline demanding post (746) before I realized... I don't even know what "facts" you're going on about.

The conversation moving on from deadlines was what I was talking about... (When I said the conversation had moved on... ) I don't deny deadlines create panic discussion/voting, and I know they get things done... (Although often in the worst possible way.)

But as you seem to want me to prove your deadline has done nothing for discussion, I think I'll take a look.

About a page and a half before you asked for the deadline there were a fair amount of posts and most of them had some content.

After you asked for the deadline the content went down but the frequency went up. Unfortunately a lot of these were talking about the deadline...

So no, I don't think your deadline has been that effective.. Although generally it is near the end of the deadline that frenquency goes through the roof with all the "vote for X, it's a deadline"... But my dislike of deadlines is the actual lynch itself... That's what days build up to and the scum benefit from deadlines when it comes to the lynch.

Deflecting, no lynching, panic lynching, etc... Or even having the scum's percentage of lynching votes go up... The deadlines helps them more than us and I don't see the discussion you wish to be credited with as worth it. I suppose the accuracy of the discussion may help somewhat... But we won't know anything about that for a long time.

I've already seen "I don't need reasons to vote, there's a deadline" and I will give you the credit for that... All the credit you want. Congratulations.

Hopefully he comes up anti-town, else I can add "deadlines are an excuse to vote for whoever the hell you like without giving reasons for your vote" to my list of stuff I hate about them.

I'm sorry I'm not posting the stats you seem to be asking for, but people can bend stats however they want anyway. If you wanted you could probably find statistical evidence for anything.


[Quote=CKD"]if he is lying then the real vig will kill him tonight..so killa seven is not the lynch today.[/Quote]

The problem is the scum want to kill him too... So either the doc doesn't protect and he dies, or the doc protects and he doesn't...

[quote="Killa Seven"]
i figured in a game this large there would be more sum players so the chances of hiting a scummy player would be more likely. i killed jive machine, i was allowed to pick any style of killing as long as it was realistic. so i picked throat slashing.[/quote]

Oh God why? Throat Slashing screams SK.

If you are still allowed to pick any type of kill, kill me tonight by shooting me with a Sniper Rifle. (I was going to say shotgun, but that's been taken... Unfortunately Ex army has access to my "protown kills" as SK" *sigh*)

It was incredibly lucky of you to kill the anti town person. Congratulations. Out of all the kills that one was you.

We could have backup vigs, vigs, all kinds of stuff. I don't really like the claim.

Ninja edit: Apparently I'm not the only one here with a deathwish... I'm assuming you have the same role I do Lloyd, I'm cool with being killed tonight, if you do not have the same role I have, I ask you let me die instead.

[Nemesis]

Sorry, I was talking about each post and I only looked at a page and a half or so before and after you asked so the stage of the day didn't influence the amount of content. (The longer the game goes the more content you should see.) Where I went wrong is temporarily forgetting the word "quantity"

The content thing I mentioned was what I saw, without making detailed notes I generally saw a lot of posts with reasoning and stuff and a decent length before you asked for the deadline, afterwards I saw an increases in one liners. Which lead me to say the content was lessened, which I still think is partly true because the content per post was less than before. Whether the overall content was increased due to the sheer number of one liners I'm not sure... But if you had a case that'd be it.

Nem, I think the point is probably moot at this point,

Probably. But do you remember when you said deadlines can be retracted? Someone asked and just got the deadline extended. Thus I conclude that the worst part of a deadline is yet to happen and is now inevitable.

or a stretch to prove a point that isnt really there..

The point isn't really there. I didn't claim deadlines lowered discussion, I've only said they created rushed discussion, which is still more discussion. It was never my point that deadlines lower discussion rates. I'm still wondering how you managed to put that in my mouth.

there has been ton of content....

There was content before too...

there was no content before I asked for the deadline....which was the reason I asked for one. People were telling jokes and voting for themselves, it was ridiculous..

It got back on track before you asked for the deadline. Do to the beauty of having to find your deadline request and then reread posts around it I visited the page stretching chart a few times. The chart is after the self vote... There was a bandwagon because of the self votes... Stuff happened and at this point in time the damage from the self votes are gone, the deadline remains.

[Nemesis]

EBWOP that last post of mine was after 1007 and the whole thing replied to that.

Killa Seven chose his own kill. He picked a scummy one. I really wish he hadn't.


Whome? You are wrong. There are two scenarios.

A: He is proctected - he lives regardless of vig/mafia/SKs/etc targetting him.

B: He is not - he dies regardless of vig/mafia/SKs/etc targetting him.



Hidden option C is the roleblocker and luck option, I don't rely on that one.

[Nemesis]

im already on killa so no vote required.

FOS BattleMage

. If the rest of the town id going to claim not vig, that forces the vig to claim, which has happened. I would rather have left the decision in his hands

I didn't particularly like that either. I also don't like how everyone just went along with it.

unlikely, because i doubt 1 vig can choose kill method, but the 2nd vig cannot

Is it possible they are both telling the truth?

It is possible. Is it likely? I'd say not.

No, it's unlikely because out of 3 kills 2 of them would be vig kills if that were true.

Based on my play, how much do you trust me?

Ok, so you'd be among the top vig targets considering your claim... And you're now directing the vig. Well, good luck I guess.

Feel like directing the roleblocker too?

[quote="BM]Do you trust not just my affiliation, but my JUDGEMENT, enough to give me the benefit of the doubt on tonights vig choice.

The answer to this question will have a surprising significance to the game.[/Quote]

I don't think it can have a surprising significance really. Although if your scumdar is off you're pretty much dead with the effective killing of a player without giving any reasons yet.

The only thing about this which irks me is the reason you give tomorrow has to be good... And even if you are right you may have to fend off some accusations about telling someone to vig your scumbuddies.

A Night 0 kill of a random player?

Sounds like a serial killer to me, not a vig.

Vigs don't shoot Night 0. Serial Killers do. Mafia do. But not vigs.

vote: killa seven

How much of this thread have you read?

FYI, we have 2 vigs claiming to have killed n0. Enjoy. ^^

it seems 50-50 on how likely there is a serial killer. Which I guess is what everyone's arguing about. Right?

No, it isn't 50-50... If you think that a throat slashing (vig) and a shotgunning (vig) and a shooting (mafia) all happened n0 and you truely believe that 2 of the three kills were actually vig kills, that would be pretty disturbing.

Oh and how much of this thread have you read?

Someone hammer him already.

Why the rush again?

At the time Lloyd gave me his vote, alot of people were paying attention to what i was saying, and i was leading the way to some extent.

When did this stop? Are you not making our second kill choice for us now? Has there ever been a point in this game where you were not "leading the way"?

What? That's news to me. Seems to me, anything I say, players want to do the exact opposite.

Come on now. The throat-slashing is soooooooo SK.

While you are one of my favourite scummers and crack me up all the time outside of games, your posting so far has made me want to beat my face and head repeatedly until I pass out.

While I appreciate the '"jokes" liven games up' mentality, I feel it is only fair to warn you that paranoia removes my sense of humour in games... Thus I have to ask... Are you even reading responses to your own posts?

I see no reason to halt the glorious Day 1 lynch of the SK for that.

Well, we have a second kill... Lloyd was nearly it until you started talking. Would trying to get the second kill right be worth halting the obvlynch for?

Why postpone the KS lynch? If KS turns out to be mafia, rather than SK, it's not going to look good for you, BM.

You didn't even have to go back many pages to find the answer without waiting for a response... Just when I was starting to like your posting too.

We are lynching Killa Seven. It's happening... Don't worry.

We are also watching BM tell the vig to vig Lloyd, which you are debating. Now 2 people are going to die based on the vig/town discussion... One of them will be Killa Seven, but we have a whole other one to mess around with and this may be our only free shot (if the doc protection fails for whatever reason), and the kill opinions are stronger than FoSes and Votes, for someone so interested in voting patterns you should be finding this interesting.

The bloodthirstyness really isn't helping.


*Disclaimer: The vig does get the final discussion, so it's not quite another free lynch.

Mod: What time zone is the 9pm deadline for?

timezone doesn't matter

killa seven only needs 7 votes to be lynched at the deadline

he already has 11 votes

13: In the case of a deadline, the person with the most votes at deadline will be lynched, but only if they have at least half the required votes needed for a normal lynch (rounded up). In the case of a tie, the first to reach the number of votes that the players are tied at will be lynched.

Way to save yourself?

------------------------------------

Also CKD I owe you an apology, it seems our lynch today was influenced to pre-deadline things. (The self voting which made you ask for the deadline.) Thus I conclude the worst thing the deadline has done is shorten our discussion about who the vig kills tonight... As opposed to my feared rushed scum influenced lynch with no meaning or reasoning.

However, this is only a 90% apology, the other 10% is still withheld until the deadline is seen to have helped. (Which blinkered as I am will never happen.)

I get the odd feeling KS isn't getting lynched today and that someone's trying to distract us from it. Why aren't we trying to convince people to hammer him, again?

I know you have been playing longer than our last batch of replacements, so you have no excuse for not reading the damn thread.

Also, if you manage to build a case for a lynch and push it through and somehow convince the vig not to kill KS tonight all before deadline then you are no mere mortal. However, I assume you're just not reading the thread...

if u let me live ill vig kill whoever the town wants me 2 kill

If Jesus decended from the heavens and saved you from lynch you'd still get roleblocked, sorry man but you're a dead man walking at the moment. However you are going through some of the stages of grief...

Denial Anger Bargaining Depression Acceptance

We've seen the denial, you seem to have skipped anger and replaced it with trying to get out of it by making the counterclaim look bad (which failed miserably), that right there is bargaining... So now all you're missing is depression and then you hit acceptance.

Unlike BM, I don't agree that we need to prolong today's discussion anymore. Time to go to night, and we'll have plenty to talk about tomorrow. Minus a few players that the scum will kill, so that we'll in fact be more efficient, having fewer players to examine, and if there are cross-kills, maybe it'll help finding scum etc. We have a chronic problem on the site with slow games, attrition, multiple replacements, and overly long days full of useless nonsense, thinking of another game where we had a 56 page Day 1 that consisted of cursing a troll/player who announced he hadn't read his PM. Let's be decisive, productive, and efficient.

FoS Toaster Strudel

for that... If we were about to lynch someone and you advocated hammering him/her before they claimed I would FoS you. This is pretty much what you are doing so I FoSed you.

Killing people without giving them a chance to claim is generally not good.

I've never seen anyone, EVER, pushing for someone to claim on penalty of being vigged. Especially someone in need of replacement.

No, you misunderstand... Someone is going to die, but with an outed vig they get a chance to defend themselves. This is a good thing.

Else someone dies and you see "[insert name here] Cop, Doc, Supersaint, Roleblocker, tracker, watcher, mason, friendly neighbour, vig, the hero of mainkind was shotgunned to death because some people didn't wait for a claim."

See the way I look at it I will probably be dead tonight. I mean typically the scum want to take out power roles. They know mine so I would like to go out shooting. I was actually hopping Lloyd would come back and answer questions directed to him at this point. Also if I think someone is scummie and they turn out to be a power role and I target them is that not bad for the town TS?
@Peers: Why are you in a hurry to end discussion? Did you not see I'm trying to make a wise choice for the town before the end of the day?

I'm so glad you are the vig and not Toaster Strudel... Anyway, while you may be dead tomorrow, a half decent doc should keep you alive. (Hopefully the doc isn't roleblocked or something.)

We are still looking for a replacement. Deadline is still in 3 days.

Request Deadline Postponement till a Replacement is found.

BM

2nd.

3rd. Don't need any more dead power roles.

4th'd. Not only do we need a possible claim from TLP (or said replacement) discussion, even if the day has been extremely long, is usually good, especially on the track we are going. Also, I support a TS vig if we don't get a claim from TLP and the extension isn't granted.

And, for clarification if a vig is NK'd their kill will not count, but if an SK is NK'd their kill will? Or would the kill count regardless of vig or SK role?

5th request.
If the mod doesn't respon to the extention request I'm leaning towards Lloyd.

6thed.

----------------------


If KS lived he's get roleblocked and vigged, his kill wouldn't go off because of the roleblock.

But someone dying doesn't stop their action from happening. Protections, kills, blocks, etc still go off as normal.

[Nemesis]

Oh, sure, you trust him when he says he's a vanilla townie... (

This is because WIFOM is fun. I'm sure BM said claiming vanilla townie was like sealing your own coffin... Or something of that nature.

would you rather we vigged him and found out for ourselves?

BM

You know what would make me happy. If you can read through the game and give an assestment of who you think it scum and why.

Yeh I will do, if i'm still alive tomorrow.

You know what's awesome? Bargaining...

I have no reason to believe he is scum a have not looked at a single of his posts yet.

It was more of a joke seeing as the alternative is me.

Oh sure, suggest a random target for the vig.

1: It was pretty much a joke.

2: Given a choice between choosing to die when you are 100% sure you are town vs lynching someone you are not 100% sure is town, it would take someone pretty suicidal to favour their own death.

for what it's worth, i now think battle mage has a night power,

This is obvious. He asked not to be roleblocker, a miller with no night actions wouldn't give a damn, would probably like to be roleblocked as it clears him of killing.

However, at the start of the game we were discussion whether BM was a miller and [insert powerrole here], it wouldn't be that unheard of to have a miller thief or something.

Well I haven't seen the claim, but to my experience miller's seem to be pretty come in these big type games, i'm sure there'll be one here.

It's not certain there is, but BM claimed and no one countered.

Also BM did claim after the cop died, which makes him look a little better, although backup cops in games this large are not that unusual.

I don't like millers, especially when they are just plain millers. Is BM ONLY a miller? If so, I'd like him gone a lot faster than armlx does.

I think we went over this earlier and he didn't feel like telling us.

Although after calling me "obvious" and whatever else he did, he said the roleblocker should take no action and said he wouldn't like to be roleblocked. Thus he claimed a night action.

[Nemesis]

One of Lloyd's 'joke claims' was vigee, like lynchee a person who wins by being vigged, not someone who can actually vigging anyone.


Lloyd's latest claim is bus driver, but that probably counts as another "not serious claim" because he didn't actually claim it, as such.

I'm basing this off of 1301 as it is the latest 'claim' I can see.

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if he came up vanilla townie or godfather. He still lacks a proper claim. (And if he was serious with bus driver, he hasn't even said he didn't use his power last night.)

It looks to me like Lloyd is just using the idea of a bus driver to scare people, and he hasn't technically lied if he isn't one.

At this point I'm still hopeful for some clarification from him, but he's "giving up" makes me doubt if it will come.

[Nemesis]

EBWOP "His giving up"*

[Nemesis]

Well, by doing that confusing some people, he is not helping the game.

He's not helping the town, at least.

On a brighter note, he'll be dead soon or he will be unnightkillable.


If he is unNKable then he's probably going to get lynched tomorrow, but he's probably just suicidal.

[Nemesis]

Yet given only two options, suggesting a third would probably not have done a lot, especially when he was in the frame.

[Nemesis]

Although for the record I'm just saying his comment wasn't scummy. I'm not saying he shouldn't scumhunt. I think you were being slightly harsh on him.

[Nemesis]

Hasty BM. Jordan, I wish you'd looked at who was online. I was writing a post before you prodded me.

[Nemesis]

Happy Birthday Dahill1

i want to hear from Rosso and Nemesis.

BM

Well I don't have much to add about the night's events to be honest. It is entirely possible you give me too much credit... Or too little... I am not sure.

My vote is confirmed, but Armlx, for the benefit of everyone here, do you reckon its acceptable for us to reveal our meta knowledge of Rosso, even considering the nature of the game?

Well considering how the Lloyd thing went, another one of your "I know he's scum and I'll tell you all later" ideas should probably be explained...

In case you didnt realise, i'm a miller. I dont get to do much at night.

Then why did you ask not to be roleblocked?

Based on my play, how much do you trust me?

Ok, so you'd be among the top vig targets considering your claim... And you're now directing the vig. Well, good luck I guess.

Feel like directing the roleblocker too?

You fail at breadcrumbing...
And ftr, i hope protown power roles have more sense than to target me tonight. That includes BOTH the aforementioned. Ugetme?/quote]

However, in the same post you say:

If we are to make the unlikely assumption that we have a Doctor, it is probably wise that any prohibitive power roles i.e. Roleblocker, do not use an action tonight.

So the roleblocker should make no choice, but should definately not target you. Why?

[Nemesis]

Happy Birthday Dahill1

i want to hear from Rosso and Nemesis.

BM

Well I don't have much to add about the night's events to be honest. It is entirely possible you give me too much credit... Or too little... I am not sure.

We were missing a scum NK. You claimed RB. I think it may be slightly useful to know who you targetted.

BM

I may have given you too much credit then. I claimed nothing of the sort. Your eagerness to look for things that arn't there made you presume I claimed Roleblocker. I mention a key role and all of a sudden I'm it?

Before you completely misread my posts I actually made it pretty clear I'm not the roleblocker.

Here is the post that was a far more obvious and a way earlier claim.

i figured in a game this large there would be more sum players so the chances of hiting a scummy player would be more likely. i killed jive machine, i was allowed to pick any style of killing as long as it was realistic. so i picked throat slashing.

Oh God why? Throat Slashing screams SK.

If you are still allowed to pick any type of kill, kill me tonight by shooting me with a Sniper Rifle. (I was going to say shotgun, but that's been taken... Unfortunately Ex army has access to my "protown kills" as SK" *sigh*)

It was incredibly lucky of you to kill the anti town person. Congratulations. Out of all the kills that one was you.

We could have backup vigs, vigs, all kinds of stuff. I don't really like the claim.

Ninja edit: Apparently I'm not the only one here with a deathwish... I'm assuming you have the same role I do Lloyd, I'm cool with being killed tonight, if you do not have the same role I have, I ask you let me die instead.

So why didn't I correct you earlier? Simple, I'd rather have died than the vig. But thank you BM for getting yet another claim out of someone. This time all it takes is a false assumption. I'll grant you that I had pretty much claimed earlier, but you apparently missed it. Now it is unmissable, have fun with that.

And for the record, next time I mention a role in one of my posts, I might not actually be it.

[Nemesis]

Nemesis, why did you full claim.

1: I didn't correct him straight away.

2: Someone would have asked me questions.

3: The claim was nothing new and stuff like this usually makes people search back through posts.

4: It is highly likely that the mafia noticed the claim when I first made it and thus gambled on the doc: A: agreeing with BM about my role and B: thinking I was more important than the claimed vig.

5: Other people noticed it, may have pointed it out and it would have come out anyway.

6: I can use this later to defend myself a tiny tiny bit.

7: I didn't think BM would back down, and there was a tiny bit of me that wanted him to realize exactly how wrong he was.

8: BM is pretty much running this show and his judgement is apparently not the best.

9: When I asked why, he didn't get the damn hint. And you seconded him straight after that.

10: There is no 10, I just like round numbers.

So what happened to our missing kill?

Don't look at me, you might want to try the doc... Else the scum targeted someone unNKable.

[quote="BM]your reasoning is disgraceful[/Quote]

So now all you have to do is assume someone is a role and they

have to

correct you? What is to stop you doing that many times until you have enough information to piece together what we have, who is what, etc.?

I still don't believe how many people thought you were right... Or said they did at least.

you might want to consider potential motives of my comments. If you still think it is worth discussing openly, then you may proceed.

1: You thought the roleblocker would ignore you anyway.

2: You have a night action despite saying a number of times that you havn't.

3: You feared a bus driver?


No, I'm not quite there. Why would a miller ask the Roleblocker not to target them but instead to make no night action?

[Nemesis]

Yet again my failure to use tags is highlighted by my forgetting to preview.

[Nemesis]

Nemesis, why did you full claim.

4: It is highly likely that the mafia noticed the claim when I first made it and thus gambled on the doc: A: agreeing with BM about my role and B: thinking I was more important than the claimed vig.

I dont understand this. If this was the case, the Doc would have protected you last night. How the f**k is that a GOOD THING?
Armlx, dont think i'm gonna avoid calling you out on stuff like this either. I'm keeping my eye out for stuff like agreeing with someones shoddy reasoning, because you havent actually read it.

No it wouldn't have been a good thing, but I am saying why I claimed then, not why I didn't correct you before. I am saying that the mafia saw what you didn't seem to have seen and thus the only people left that are confused are protown, so I may as well dispel the confusion.

But from the lack of a scum kill, would you say the above did not happen? To me it seems likely that it did.

And you misread my post. If what I suspect is true, the scum thought the doc would protect me when (s)he didn't.

6: I can use this later to defend myself a tiny tiny bit.

Use what to defend yourself?

Nevermind, later. It hardly matters really in retrospect.

7: I didn't think BM would back down, and there was a tiny bit of me that wanted him to realize exactly how wrong he was.

Great prioritising. Personal vendetta>town performance. /sarcasm

There is no vendetta. What I mean is, you have misread something you have been sure of twice. You are making mistakes yet you continue to lead the town around about things you are sure of, when in fact everything you have been sure of so far has been wrong. Admittedly if you take enough shots in the dark, one is bound to hit.

So what happened to our missing kill?

Don't look at me, you might want to try the doc... Else the scum targeted someone unNKable.

UnNKable townies arent that common. We arent even certain we have another Doc.

A bodyguard isn't quite a doc and this is a large game. It may not be certain, but we probably have someone.

your reasoning is disgraceful

So now all you have to do is assume someone is a role and they

have to

correct you? What is to stop you doing that many times until you have enough information to piece together what we have, who is what, etc.?

It was in the towns interest to correct me, if you didnt want our Vig dead.

I disagree.

you might want to consider potential motives of my comments. If you still think it is worth discussing openly, then you may proceed.

1: You thought the roleblocker would ignore you anyway.

2: You have a night action despite saying a number of times that you havn't.

3: You feared a bus driver?


No, I'm not quite there. Why would a miller ask the Roleblocker not to target them but instead to make no night action?

*sigh*
Ok, lets try a different question. Why would a Mafioso ask the RoleBlocker not to target them?

BM

1: They have an ability they want to use.

2: If they must make the kill then they'll like it to go through.

3: Because they think that asking not to be targetted would ensure they are targetted and thus their partner could make the kill?

[Nemesis]

Nemesis, why did you full claim.

4: It is highly likely that the mafia noticed the claim when I first made it and thus gambled on the doc: A: agreeing with BM about my role and B: thinking I was more important than the claimed vig.

I dont understand this. If this was the case, the Doc would have protected you last night. How the f**k is that a GOOD THING?
Armlx, dont think i'm gonna avoid calling you out on stuff like this either. I'm keeping my eye out for stuff like agreeing with someones shoddy reasoning, because you havent actually read it.

No it wouldn't have been a good thing, but I am saying why I claimed then, not why I didn't correct you before. I am saying that the mafia saw what you didn't seem to have seen and thus the only people left that are confused are protown, so I may as well dispel the confusion.

2 things here. firstly, now night is over, was there any great point to you claiming at the start of today?
Secondly, how are you so sure that only town believed you are the RB?

To stop *this* from happening... Or maybe it's one of the other reasons I mentioned before, there were 9 of them.

I'm not, but taking into account the vig is still alive and scum will be looking for hints at roles closer than townies will, I think it is a fairly safe assumption that I couldn't let the RB thing go on indefinately and given the lack of either me or the vig dying, I'm fairly confident that a protective role helped out with that, my diversion obviously didn't work unless both the scum and the protective role targetted me, which I doubt happened. Also, I'm not dead either, so there's that too.

And you misread my post. If what I suspect is true, the scum thought the doc would protect me when (s)he didn't.

I think this a rather short-sighted approach to the situation. I mean, what IS more important, an RB or a Vig? I know which i'd rather be, but its a matter of opinion, and its totally conceivable that this is what determined the choices-not your breadcrumb early on.

Yeah, there's that... Or there is the fact that the vig was completely and utterly left wide open with a huge target on her.

7: I didn't think BM would back down, and there was a tiny bit of me that wanted him to realize exactly how wrong he was.

Great prioritising. Personal vendetta>town performance. /sarcasm

There is no vendetta. What I mean is, you have misread something you have been sure of twice. You are making mistakes yet you continue to lead the town around about things you are sure of, when in fact everything you have been sure of so far has been wrong. Admittedly if you take enough shots in the dark, one is bound to hit.

Umm, this is grossly inaccurate. I've sent two people to the grave now. One was Vanilla, and one was SK. Overall, in a game with 1/4 of the players as scum, i'd say thats pretty damn good. If i was feeling in a statistical mood, id show just how good. Admittedly i was pretty sure about Lloyd, and was wrong, but everyone makes mistakes. Would you rather it was scum leading the town, or an imperfect townie?

Stats can be twisted like nothing else. Anyway, I think you give yourself a little too much credit for the SK lynch. The Lloyd thing was all you at the start until ToasterStrudel pointed out that you might have been wrong. The "trust me, I'll give reasons tomorrow" approach is not quite what happened with the SK.

Don't get me wrong, you are useful at the moment, if you were not then you'd be dead because of your claim. I have no problem with you scumhunting, it is just the conviction and the grip you have on the town that bothers me.

I'd rather the town not be lead, gently prodded perhaps, but not lead around after anyone as much as this. A townie doesn't know who is scum, so I wouldn't even like the town being lead by a mod confirmed townie.*

There are various exceptions to this, however a miller is not a cop or part of a 12 man masonry.

your reasoning is disgraceful

So now all you have to do is assume someone is a role and they

have to

correct you? What is to stop you doing that many times until you have enough information to piece together what we have, who is what, etc.?

It was in the towns interest to correct me, if you didnt want our Vig dead.

I disagree.

You can disagree all you want. The fact is that you are wrong.

Well the vig is alive. Not correcting you probably had no effect on this, but nonetheless the vig lives.

However, if I had corrected you then I'd have effectively claimed 1 day earlier and I do apologize for giving you too much credit and wondering if you were just trying to use me to shield the vig. If you read me wrong then it is your fault and if anyone wants to blindly follow you, it is their fault. At the end of the game we *might* be able to find out what actually happened and get this settled but until then, this discussion is useless. Whether I was right or wrong not to correct you, it doesn't actually do jack to determine my alignment. All that can be gathered is twice yesterday I let myself become a target.

you might want to consider potential motives of my comments. If you still think it is worth discussing openly, then you may proceed.

1: You thought the roleblocker would ignore you anyway.

2: You have a night action despite saying a number of times that you havn't.

3: You feared a bus driver?


No, I'm not quite there. Why would a miller ask the Roleblocker not to target them but instead to make no night action?

*sigh*
Ok, lets try a different question. Why would a Mafioso ask the RoleBlocker not to target them?

BM

1: They have an ability they want to use.

2: If they must make the kill then they'll like it to go through.

3: Because they think that asking not to be targetted would ensure they are targetted and thus their partner could make the kill?

1. ok, what conceivable abilities could i have as scum?
Mafia RB? Nope, because a game with a Mafia RB does not feature a Town RB-its a broken setup.
Mafia Doctor? Who would i be that worried about protecting? lol
Please feel free to come up with some possible scenarios. So far, i cant see any.

2. Erm, we dont have any mafia dead yet. Why would 1 scumbag NEED to make the kill?

3. Thats WIFOM, and in practice, makes very little sense.

Keep trying.

BM

1: Scum could have virtually any ability. If you think that scum abilities are restricted to Doctor and Roleblocker you really need to play on IRC, it's amazing the stuff scum could theoretically have. Vote Stealer, Framer, Tracker, Switcher, Cheat, Redirector, Witch, etc.

2: If the Godfather loses his unKNable ability or alway innocent ability... If the mafia are restricted in kills... If his scum buddy had been culted... If his scum buddy was MIA and he didn't have the choice of sending him... There are a few reasons.

3: Yes, the question mark shows it is a fairly risky thing to do.

I would, however you havn't answered my question yet I did take a stab at yours so it is only fair. Why did you ask the RB not to target you bu instead to make no action?

I'm disliking the BM/Nemesis conversation. I'm getting vibes from Nemesis that seem to be saying "I know BM is town."

I am saying that the mafia saw what you didn't seem to have seen

It gives me a bad feeling.

"I am saying that the mafia saw what you didn't

seem

to have seen"

The 'seem' comment implies that either A: BM in fact did not see it. B: BM did see it and acted like he didn't.

[Nemesis]

And you misread my post. If what I suspect is true, the scum thought the doc would protect me when (s)he didn't.

I think this a rather short-sighted approach to the situation. I mean, what IS more important, an RB or a Vig? I know which i'd rather be, but its a matter of opinion, and its totally conceivable that this is what determined the choices-not your breadcrumb early on.

Yeah, there's that... Or there is the fact that the vig was completely and utterly left wide open with a huge target on her.

Please explain.

Well the vig was unmissably the vig, a great deal of attention was drawn to her being the vig. She did seem pretty resigned to her fate and a great deal was made out of her probable death. She was by far the most obvious target.

you might want to consider potential motives of my comments. If you still think it is worth discussing openly, then you may proceed.

1: You thought the roleblocker would ignore you anyway.

2: You have a night action despite saying a number of times that you havn't.

3: You feared a bus driver?


No, I'm not quite there. Why would a miller ask the Roleblocker not to target them but instead to make no night action?

*sigh*
Ok, lets try a different question. Why would a Mafioso ask the RoleBlocker not to target them?

BM

1: They have an ability they want to use.

2: If they must make the kill then they'll like it to go through.

3: Because they think that asking not to be targetted would ensure they are targetted and thus their partner could make the kill?

1. ok, what conceivable abilities could i have as scum?
Mafia RB? Nope, because a game with a Mafia RB does not feature a Town RB-its a broken setup.
Mafia Doctor? Who would i be that worried about protecting? lol
Please feel free to come up with some possible scenarios. So far, i cant see any.

2. Erm, we dont have any mafia dead yet. Why would 1 scumbag NEED to make the kill?

3. Thats WIFOM, and in practice, makes very little sense.

Keep trying.

BM

1: Scum could have virtually any ability. If you think that scum abilities are restricted to Doctor and Roleblocker you really need to play on IRC, it's amazing the stuff scum could theoretically have. Vote Stealer, Framer, Tracker, Switcher, Cheat, Redirector, Witch, etc.

This is a game modded by Jordan. In fact, it is his first large game as the primary moderator. This isnt scumchat or mafia IRC.

2: If the Godfather loses his unKNable ability or alway innocent ability

How is that even possible, and even if it was, how would it affect who made the kill?

... If the mafia are restricted in kills

All Mafia are restricted in kills. Normally 1 per night. It doesnt affect who makes the kill though.

... If his scum buddy had been culted

Scum cannot normally be culted, for obvious reasons. But, again, even if it were possible, we are probably looking at a mafia group of 4-5 people here. Theres still plenty of options.

... If his scum buddy was MIA and he didn't have the choice of sending him...

Usually, he would still have the option of stating that the MIA player would perform the kill. But even then, theres going to be plenty more buddies, not all of whom are going to be MIA. -.-

I did not say it was, I simply said that restricting mafia abilities to 2 very common ones may force you to overlook others.

Well, the GF wouldn't want to loose those cool abilities and wouldn't want to make the kill.

Sorry, I meant restricted on who makes the kills. I'm sure I've seen a game or two with an order. (Rare yes, unprecedented no.)

Yeah, that's a fair point.

Sometimes whoever sends the pm makes the kill.

So far, you have failed to make ANY valid scenarios in which i would be scum, asking the RB not to target me. You've proven your own case invalid. Unfortunately you've rolefished to the extent that i have to now fully-claim. I'm not just a Miller. I'm a Miller cum Hider. Each night in order to protect myself, i can leave my house, and go stay with someone else, so if i am targetted by scum, i dont die, but if they target the guy im hiding with, then we both die. If I get Roleblocked, i wont be able to hide, and will probably die...

Happy now? -.-
BM

It's not rolefishing when you say you definately are just a miller and do nothing.

I'm really starting to dislike Nemesis's "I saved the vig" defense.

You keep finding stuff I say to dislike. My disclaimer here is when I said "it probably had no effect at all". Keep searching though, I'm sure you'll find something.

the mod just changed his mind.

The mod corrected you after a misunderstanding or the mod clarified the situation to you after seeing you wern't sure what would happen or the mod randomly PMed you saying "I've changed my mind"?

Also, you said before that the mod implied a miller would show up guilty anyway, so when the mod changed his mind, what exactly changed? Just your understanding of the situation or something else?

[Nemesis]

And you misread my post. If what I suspect is true, the scum thought the doc would protect me when (s)he didn't.

I think this a rather short-sighted approach to the situation. I mean, what IS more important, an RB or a Vig? I know which i'd rather be, but its a matter of opinion, and its totally conceivable that this is what determined the choices-not your breadcrumb early on.

Yeah, there's that... Or there is the fact that the vig was completely and utterly left wide open with a huge target on her.

Please explain.

Well the vig was unmissably the vig, a great deal of attention was drawn to her being the vig. She did seem pretty resigned to her fate and a great deal was made out of her probable death. She was by far the most obvious target.

That being the case, why did you think that the Scum would expect the Doc to target someone who was OBVIOUSLY less likely to be NKed?

Because they assumed the bodyguard was the only protective role we had...

you might want to consider potential motives of my comments. If you still think it is worth discussing openly, then you may proceed.

1: You thought the roleblocker would ignore you anyway.

2: You have a night action despite saying a number of times that you havn't.

3: You feared a bus driver?


No, I'm not quite there. Why would a miller ask the Roleblocker not to target them but instead to make no night action?

*sigh*
Ok, lets try a different question. Why would a Mafioso ask the RoleBlocker not to target them?

BM

1: They have an ability they want to use.

2: If they must make the kill then they'll like it to go through.

3: Because they think that asking not to be targetted would ensure they are targetted and thus their partner could make the kill?

1. ok, what conceivable abilities could i have as scum?
Mafia RB? Nope, because a game with a Mafia RB does not feature a Town RB-its a broken setup.
Mafia Doctor? Who would i be that worried about protecting? lol
Please feel free to come up with some possible scenarios. So far, i cant see any.

2. Erm, we dont have any mafia dead yet. Why would 1 scumbag NEED to make the kill?

3. Thats WIFOM, and in practice, makes very little sense.

Keep trying.

BM

1: Scum could have virtually any ability. If you think that scum abilities are restricted to Doctor and Roleblocker you really need to play on IRC, it's amazing the stuff scum could theoretically have. Vote Stealer, Framer, Tracker, Switcher, Cheat, Redirector, Witch, etc.

This is a game modded by Jordan. In fact, it is his first large game as the primary moderator. This isnt scumchat or mafia IRC.

2: If the Godfather loses his unKNable ability or alway innocent ability

How is that even possible, and even if it was, how would it affect who made the kill?

... If the mafia are restricted in kills

All Mafia are restricted in kills. Normally 1 per night. It doesnt affect who makes the kill though.

... If his scum buddy had been culted

Scum cannot normally be culted, for obvious reasons. But, again, even if it were possible, we are probably looking at a mafia group of 4-5 people here. Theres still plenty of options.

... If his scum buddy was MIA and he didn't have the choice of sending him...

Usually, he would still have the option of stating that the MIA player would perform the kill. But even then, theres going to be plenty more buddies, not all of whom are going to be MIA. -.-

I did not say it was, I simply said that restricting mafia abilities to 2 very common ones may force you to overlook others.

True, but ive challenged you to a valid exception to the rule, and you havent done so.

Mafia Spy

Framer

Strongman (That's what the wiki calls it anyway.)

Well, the GF wouldn't want to loose those cool abilities and wouldn't want to make the kill.

This doesnt make any sense. Since when did the GF lose basic functions of his role by making an NK???? 0.o

I've seen it. Unfortunately I can't remember a specific game, but I have seen the GF role work like that. (I'm not saying this is standard.) But the flavour was as long as he didn't kill, the cop couldn't find anything on him.


[quote="BM]

So far, you have failed to make ANY valid scenarios in which i would be scum, asking the RB not to target me. You've proven your own case invalid. Unfortunately you've rolefished to the extent that i have to now fully-claim. I'm not just a Miller. I'm a Miller cum Hider. Each night in order to protect myself, i can leave my house, and go stay with someone else, so if i am targetted by scum, i dont die, but if they target the guy im hiding with, then we both die. If I get Roleblocked, i wont be able to hide, and will probably die...

Happy now? -.-
BM

It's not rolefishing when you say you definately are just a miller and do nothing.

Yes it is!!!

BM[/quote]

What the hell am I fishing for? You have told me your role, a ton of times... I have nothing left to fish for. You said you were a miller in your first post and later you said that you definitely are nothing more.

All I was asking is why you asked not to be roleblocked and instead advocated the roleblocker to make no action. If someone lies and I try bust them it's not rolefishing.

As long as Nemesis is willing to accept that unless he can provide a recent example of such a method being used, he cannot consider this a viable option.

It's not worth my time searching in order for you to define 'recent' once I have found something. I'd think that a witness to the role existing would be enough for you to hold your hands up on this one. It's not even that likely, such a variation of a role existing does not mean it is definitely in the game. But you've gone to incredible lengths to avoid a question that could have been answered in 30 seconds instead of going into all this.

You keep finding stuff I say to dislike. My disclaimer here is when I said "it probably had no effect at all". Keep searching though, I'm sure you'll find something.

You aren't using logic. You admit that it probably did nothing to help the vig, yet you are still using it to defend yourself. I find that scummy. And I don't have to keep searching, because I've already seen enough.

To defend my choice? Well we do not know what happened. However, I'm not sure what you've seen enough of. What exactly am I supposed to have done?

n0 i didnt have an inv.

You didn't get an investigation? You were not given the choice of one?

Vote: Rosso Carne

I missed it too, but it was more the wall of quoted quoted quoted quoted quotes that irked me.

Seriously, just quote the line.

I apologize, however, I did not want to take anything out of context.

[Nemesis]

Also, who is getting vigged tonight?

[Nemesis]

And you misread my post. If what I suspect is true, the scum thought the doc would protect me when (s)he didn't.

I think this a rather short-sighted approach to the situation. I mean, what IS more important, an RB or a Vig? I know which i'd rather be, but its a matter of opinion, and its totally conceivable that this is what determined the choices-not your breadcrumb early on.

Yeah, there's that... Or there is the fact that the vig was completely and utterly left wide open with a huge target on her.

Please explain.

Well the vig was unmissably the vig, a great deal of attention was drawn to her being the vig. She did seem pretty resigned to her fate and a great deal was made out of her probable death. She was by far the most obvious target.

That being the case, why did you think that the Scum would expect the Doc to target someone who was OBVIOUSLY less likely to be NKed?

Because they assumed the bodyguard was the only protective role we had...

If what I suspect is true, the scum thought the doc would protect me when (s)he didn't.

This is what you originally claimed. You are still being markedly inconsistent.

It was a theory, a guess, etc. One of many. I'm throwing other ideas on there as I think of them. Rereading through your posts made me wonder if the scum had taken your outlook on things.

I'd already mentioned the reasons you call WIFOM and that I myself admit to being risky such as "because the scum

obviously

wouldn't kill the biggest target", however we've done that one already.

you might want to consider potential motives of my comments. If you still think it is worth discussing openly, then you may proceed.

1: You thought the roleblocker would ignore you anyway.

2: You have a night action despite saying a number of times that you havn't.

3: You feared a bus driver?


No, I'm not quite there. Why would a miller ask the Roleblocker not to target them but instead to make no night action?

*sigh*
Ok, lets try a different question. Why would a Mafioso ask the RoleBlocker not to target them?

BM

1: They have an ability they want to use.

2: If they must make the kill then they'll like it to go through.

3: Because they think that asking not to be targetted would ensure they are targetted and thus their partner could make the kill?

1. ok, what conceivable abilities could i have as scum?
Mafia RB? Nope, because a game with a Mafia RB does not feature a Town RB-its a broken setup.
Mafia Doctor? Who would i be that worried about protecting? lol
Please feel free to come up with some possible scenarios. So far, i cant see any.

2. Erm, we dont have any mafia dead yet. Why would 1 scumbag NEED to make the kill?

3. Thats WIFOM, and in practice, makes very little sense.

Keep trying.

BM

1: Scum could have virtually any ability. If you think that scum abilities are restricted to Doctor and Roleblocker you really need to play on IRC, it's amazing the stuff scum could theoretically have. Vote Stealer, Framer, Tracker, Switcher, Cheat, Redirector, Witch, etc.

This is a game modded by Jordan. In fact, it is his first large game as the primary moderator. This isnt scumchat or mafia IRC.

2: If the Godfather loses his unKNable ability or alway innocent ability

How is that even possible, and even if it was, how would it affect who made the kill?

... If the mafia are restricted in kills

All Mafia are restricted in kills. Normally 1 per night. It doesnt affect who makes the kill though.

... If his scum buddy had been culted

Scum cannot normally be culted, for obvious reasons. But, again, even if it were possible, we are probably looking at a mafia group of 4-5 people here. Theres still plenty of options.

... If his scum buddy was MIA and he didn't have the choice of sending him...

Usually, he would still have the option of stating that the MIA player would perform the kill. But even then, theres going to be plenty more buddies, not all of whom are going to be MIA. -.-

I did not say it was, I simply said that restricting mafia abilities to 2 very common ones may force you to overlook others.

True, but ive challenged you to a valid exception to the rule, and you havent done so.

Mafia Spy

Framer

Point taken.

So far, you have failed to make ANY valid scenarios in which i would be scum, asking the RB not to target me. You've proven your own case invalid. Unfortunately you've rolefished to the extent that i have to now fully-claim. I'm not just a Miller. I'm a Miller cum Hider. Each night in order to protect myself, i can leave my house, and go stay with someone else, so if i am targetted by scum, i dont die, but if they target the guy im hiding with, then we both die. If I get Roleblocked, i wont be able to hide, and will probably die...

Happy now? -.-
BM

It's not rolefishing when you say you definately are just a miller and do nothing.

Yes it is!!!

BM

What the hell am I fishing for? You have told me your role, a ton of times... I have nothing left to fish for. You said you were a miller in your first post and later you said that you definitely are nothing more.

All I was asking is why you asked not to be roleblocked and instead advocated the roleblocker to make no action. If someone lies and I try bust them it's not rolefishing.

It is rolefishing. The two possible scenarios are me being scum OR me having a power role. If you knew that scum was the only scenario available, you wouldnt need to discuss, you could just vote for me. Because you realise the possibility of me having an additional role, you are hence FISHING for that role.
[/quote]

Now we're going to argue about semantics... Ok, I don't care what your additional role is if you have one, but if you say "ok, I'm not just a miller" I can point out that you said you were and had no other powers. If you say "I did this because X" then I get to shut up, which might be nice too.

But if I thought you were scum, I wouldn't vote for you now anyway. I think it was decided fairly early that you are a dead man walking. You're going to die anyway and at the moment you are providing some interesting points. Plus it looks like Rosso is going to die and his death might bring you out in a different light.

However, there is one key point you are missing... I always like to discuss. If I did want to vote for you then having something like lynch all liars to fall back on might be nice. Additionally if there is a roleblocker he might want to know what your thought process was.

Btw, if you really are a Roleblocker, i'm actually going to kick you IN THE FACE when this game is over.

I know.

If you come up as a protown miller with a useful night actions you'll get one from me too.

However, I don't think if I were the rolelocker I'd fully deserve that kick... It would be much worse if I were something other than a vanilla townie and didn't correct those that said I was one after what happened with the roleblocker thing. I still don't think I've either confirmed or denied that... Curious...

I'm happy for Farside to kill Whome at this stage.

Awesome, and we giving Farside time to ask Whome to claim before we lynch Rosso? I was kind of hoping we would, I like discussion.



How is Rosso doing for votes by the way?

[Nemesis]

Nemesis, please stop confusing the hell out of me. Please fully, honestly, claim now. Are you a protown Roleblocker?

BM

I think I've already said I'm not a roleblocker of any kind. I'll say it again just to make sure. I cannot roleblock anyone.

[Nemesis]

And I will make this point now. I will not be claiming today regardless of what farside does or does not post.

I will also say again. Farside can kill whosoever he chooses. We should not be guiding him and ending up with multiple claims per day. This can only benefit scum in their NK's

The town effectively has 2 lynches... You are saying that asking the second person is just lynched without claiming.

It benefits the scum as much as claiming when people are L-1 does. If you believe the benefit to the town is not worth it, why claim when facing a lynch? If you do believe it is worth it, why not claim when you face being vigged?

(The above is to anyone who agrees with the quoted statement.)

shit, it got lost in my pms.

my n0 inv was armlx and i got an inno

And you didn't remember this?

why did you investigate Armlx?

...alphabetical order...

lolwut?

Dear BM and Nemesis,

Seriously, just quote the line.

Please!!!!!

Seriously, just quote the line.

Thank you, that is all.
--dahill1

P.S.

Seriously, just quote the line.

I will trim down what I quote. However, if I did just quote the line this time, I'd have to quote you quoting Armlx with no text of your own, which might have been misleading... But thank you for your imput, coming from someone who 7thed something and quoted the previous 6 I guess I must have been pretty annoying. It's funny how I look back and notice how often you quote people... The majority of your posts are quotes usually. o.O

[Nemesis]

Who says a vig has to kill every night? I thought they were only supposed to strike if they find someone scummy enough. And yes, this is usually without a claim.

Well, who says the town has to lynch every day?

Usually this point has merit, however we can effectively have the town decide who to lynch, why and have that person defend themselves. So because of this situation, what we are getting is closer to a lynch than a vig kill.

But that's because they don't know they are going to be targetted. With a vig out in the open, they can find out... Usually a vig cannot ask.

Nemesis-stance on Rosso?

Current Vote Count (Last Updated Friday 11th April 5.15pm GMT [Post 1532])

Rosso Carne- 10 (armlx, WhoMe?, Toaster Strudel, Peers, curiouskarmadog, jackalbane, Battle Mage, Matt_S,

Nemesis

, Xtoxm)

[Nemesis]

Farside was 'v/la April 3rd to April 9th', I would have hoped she'd have checked in by now, by I suppose she hasn't been back for long.

[Nemesis]

...but it looks like we're holding off on voting for some reason. I'm guessing so we can discuss who his buddies are so that we can hopefully vig them tonight?

This is a 28-player game with only one expected night kill per night, possibly a maximum of two.

It's only Day 2 and we're on page 63.

With a projected average of 2.2 deaths per day/nigh cycle, this game is expected to last between 12 and 13 days. At the rate we're going, and assuming we pick up speed, counting 25 pages per day, this game will grow to THREE HUNDRED PAGES.

The vig can decide who Rosso's buddies are if he turns up scum.

We have to be efficient, otherwise this game will last until after we're dead, and we'll have to beg our grandchildren to replace us (I'm meeting with my accountant on Monday to have a replacement secured in my will).

While projections are fun, yours are clearly wrong. You do not account for deaths properly. at endgame there will not be 25 pages, that is a crazy amount for a small number of people to post.

im not lurking i already stated im against lynching rosso, theres nothin else goin on besides that.

Oh, why do you not want to lynch Rosso? I guess I missed your post on this before...

You want answers, let the normal cop inv me tonight, and nothing will go down.

The problems with that include but are not limited to:

#1 The cop is dead.

#2 Assuming we have a backup cop, (s)he'd have to be sane.

#3 Assuming we have a backup cop who gets a result on you, they'd have to claim and creating problems with claimed powerroles running around and not enough protection for them.

#4 You could have investigation immunity.

vote rosso carne seems a little strange how he would forget his n0 investigation, then say it was alphabetical order even though there were two people before armlx

While I think rc's wagon is a bad one, there are better reasons to vote for him than that. So dahill's vote seems like lazy wagoning. I'm just pointing it out now.

So you are saying the RC wagon is bad. - Why and which others would you prefer?

You are saying there are better reasons to vote for RC than him changing his story and then giving a reason for his N0 investigation which makes no sense. - What are these reasons and given all these reasons why do you still think the RC wagon is bad?

Why are you against the RC wagon?

[Nemesis]

I guess he does have a point, cult or scum, who was trying to set up BM, would know once BM turned up Miller (or not cult) that his lie would be exposed, the next day he would surely hang. Now I can see this as an end game play, but I doubt we are at end game. This could a lyncher gambit (been fooled by lynchers twice now), again, it is a sad one....RC is just useless in general right now, but does he deserve to hang? This could also be a scum gambit between RC and BM...but that too seems far fetched especially with its execution...I need to think about this somemore and reread....it is not just RC's BM claim that bothers me..it is whole claim in general that seems made up as he went along that bugs the shit out of me....

Well tomorrow he has the "well he was a miller... I didn't know he'd turn up guilty for everything" thing.

And yes, it does seem as though he made it up as he went along. And people that just make claims and night actions up as they go along are rarely town.

But again, I ask you: if he's scum, why claim that? BM's response is a "shrug, who cares," who can do better?

As scum he'd have a chance at a free lynch with a lot of room for excuses afterwards... Then he can "confirm" people as "not cult" afterwards and it is likely that at worst there is 1 culted player running around, so RC could survive for some time with this claim despite the mislynch.

But as town, why claim that? Rosso would have to be:

#1: Either not paying attention or certain that a miller wouldn't mess up his investigation.

#2: Damn forgetful to completely forget he made an investigation N0. Or that he could even make one.

#3: Alphabetically challenged.

Now if you believe Rosso could play that badly as town, I don't see how you think his play as scum

must

be logical or even good.

------------------

Animorpherv1 welcome to the game, please give an opinion or say something other than "Vote RC".