Mini 568 - Nubigena (Game over!)

[XReyoX]

Vote: Mafiaplayer

for being such a noob.

[XReyoX]

MafiaPlayer-

Are you avoiding Incognito's question?

[XReyoX]

Further, why are you claiming Vanilla townie in the opening post?

..... Mafiaplayer-

You should pay more attention to other players post as well, not just the opening post. So... Care to explain?

[XReyoX]

Further, why are you claiming Vanilla townie in the opening post?

..... Mafiaplayer-

You should pay more attention to other players post as well, not just the opening post. So... Care to explain?

I made a mistake and thought that the Vig killed N0 was an NPC.

Sorry, did i missed something there?
Do you mean you voted avinashv, thinking he is an NPC? Why would you vote for an NPC in the first place.

[XReyoX]

Mafiaplayer-
Who told you that mafia would usually claim PRs? and why should we LAP? Surely if one of them claim townie, we'll all be as dead as a dodoo.

The suggestion that a mafia would claim the his true role is insulting our intellegence.

Why would you vote for an NPC in the first place?

Also, ignoring people's questions again and again is not very protown.

[XReyoX]

I think Mafiaplayer is a troll.

[XReyoX]

I guess I can vouch for him because I just got called a townie in my role pm.

?? what do you mean?

[XReyoX]

I agree with most of Y's #74.
Mafiaplayer ignoring my questions numerous times is getting really irritating. I don't like my Qs unanswered (which includes the stuffs about LAP, mafia roleclaiming, why he would think everyone would massclaim at the very beginning of the game, and etc…). Accusing people for not adapting to this play style is a very bad excuse for making scummy posts. Him saying Y is ignoring other people is calling the kettle black. Trying to vote for a corpse, sammich, me, and then Y looks hoppy to me.

Sammich’s dicevoting is not much of a scumtell IMO. Tho I’m a bit suspicious of him saying he rolled a dice in real life which told him to vote for himself. However, whether he was lying or not, I think it was an attempt to spring some discussion, not really a scumtell. Rolclaiming townie at this point is not at all necessary and I didn’t expect an experienced player like sammich to claim in this situation, understanding that roleclaiming townie only provides more information for the scum to work on whilst providing almost no benefit to the town at all. The excuse for not getting the answer right is poor. (Deleted your pm? Why didn’t you say so why you claim?)

The first impression on Jerubbaal was that he was rolefishing when he asked for people’s rolename, but then realised it was an attempt to see if MP is really a townie.

The bit voting and unvoting between Lowell, Jerubbaal, Near and Phantom, and thing about metagaming is confusing me. Can’t read anything from it atm.

[XReyoX]

Near and Mafiaplayer are both gaining ranks in scumminess.
First is their vote hopping.
Near: Phantom>Sammich>Imat>Sammich
Miafiaplayer: Sammich>Me>Y>Sammich

The reasons behind all these votes seems pretty weak. Voting for someone just to see if they'll panic in not at all a good excuse.

[XReyoX]

Voting to see if somebody will panic or fall into a trap is all well and good, not a tell for either side. Voting somebody with absolutely no evidence and then expecting them to panic is much more of a Scummy move.

Thats exactly what I wanted to say.

[XReyoX]

As I've said, I think Mafiaplayer is some kind of troll. The idea that he might be an alt account has creep into my mind quite a few times. I don't see any genuine players, scum or not, playing like this. Well.... unless he is a jester.

[XReyoX]

Sammich:

I'm sorry if I've missed your answer somewhere. Why did you claim, why do you think that it was a good time to claim townie and what made you think you want to vouch for mafiaplayer because you are a townie?

[XReyoX]

Jerubbaal:

How can you read him as a townie if he don't have any logic in his posts. I mean if its so impossible to comprehense what he is thinking, then he can be a scum as much as he is a town. In addition he is not giving any benefit to the town at all and might even be destructive, lets say if he hammers people when we can gain more information by leaving it at L-1 or he can be wasting potentially useful cop investigation, etc....

He has not shown any respect to other players and the mod by ignoring people's comments and not reading the openning post (which I'm sure the mod has spent a lot of time writing it and making the front page all colourful).

I'm hating myself for commenting on him because I'm sure all he wants is to irritate people and I've fallen into it. He has not only proven himself to be close to useless but is also clouding my vision and drawing my attention to this when I could have spent more time looking into more useful posts and find scums.

Anyway

Mafiaplayer, could you just answer these questions for me to make believe that you have a brain:

1) Why do you think people would massclaim after you?
2) Why do you think it is beneficial to the town by claiming townie when this would mean that the scums can rule you out for the NK because killing power role is a better choice for them?
3)Do you have any other reasons for lynching sammich beside wanting to see what his role is?
4)Why is lynching all power role a good strategy?
5)Who do you think is the most scummy person at the moment and why?
6)What do you think about others people's play so far? Please mention at least 2.

Thanks.

[XReyoX]

Mod:

I demand Mafiaplayer to be replaced and some sort of investigation to be carried out. I heavily suspect that MP is some sort of joke account and was not created to play the game properly. This thing has shown some kind of thinking pattern in other forums but not in any games. It knows that it is stupid as well. Although it is not set in stone that a genuine player have to sign up for a game immediate, upon joining the forum, MP went to disscuss "worst roles" in the mafia discussion section and have shown to have decent knowledge of the game and abbreviations used around the forum. I believe that the first thing any players would do is to sign up for a game once their accounts have been approved. We've all been there when we first join.

---

Anyway, back to the game:

After a re-read, i have something to point out.

Also,

Unvote: Sammich

I think hes at L-1.

Mod:

Votecount please?

Sammich was on L-3 i think, not L-1.

Near:
Could you please post more about your thought on various people instead of vote-hopping?

After the re-read i think near is less scummy than i originally thought. Although the reasons behind the votes aren't strong, he wasn't jumping onto big wagons and this seems to accomplish little if he is scum IMO. I'd keep my eyes on this though.

Lowell:
Could you please explain the theory behind the Y/Near scumteam? I don't seems to see it at the moment.

Mafiaplayer:
Why did you vote for avin? you said that you thought he is an NPC.

[XReyoX]

Is there a nomination for "

Worst

Saddest player EVER"?

fixed

I feel sorry for MP, if it is putting its best effort in playing this game.

[XReyoX]

MP, are you referring to this?

The suggestion that a mafia would claim the his true role is insulting

our

intellegence.

I'm simply amazed.

1)What do you think about other people except me, Y and sammich?
2)Do you believe that changing your vote almost every other post is a pro-town behaviour?
3)Are you voting people because you truly think that they are scums or are you just wanna OMGUS vote people who criticize you game play or etc?

---

Imat:
That can be a potential scumtell. Just following people's suspicions without adding his own thoughts can minimizes the chance of people reading his real intension. However, it can also be a lazy townie or as you've mentioned, an easily swayed town.
The post which made me wanna watch out for him is this:

maybe i suck at scum hunting- because i'm now suspecting jerubbaal.

It sounds like he knows jerubbaal is town yet he is suspecting him... (and for being too townie). I don't understand how he can think someone is suspicious but is town as well at the same time, unless jerubbaal is dead and has his role revealed.

[XReyoX]

MP, do you realized that cat has only made a total of 2 posts?

vote: Fat_Tony

for being a cartoon mafia guy

unvote Vote: Mafiaplayer

for not being all to bright

[XReyoX]

...wth

[XReyoX]

mod:

Can we have MP's links to be removed? I think linking to other mafia sites is violating the general forum rules.

---

Incognito: The differences between MP and the other players you've mentioned is that MP is deliberately trying to mess the game up. Although I agree that the other players have a scummy playstyle, they put efforts in their games and try to win. MP is doing the exact opposite. It just wanna draw our attention and provoke people to see how far it can go before we will lynch it or something.

---

Having MP staying in the game gives no benefit to the town at all. In addition, I can imagine MP prematurely hammering people for reasons like " I feel like voting him. I think he was scum", "I just wanna see his alignment", "I messed up the code, I meant to vote for so and so"... but it probably will make reasons up that are unheard of.

I don't like value lynch as well because we don't get much information from it and the chance that MP is town is more likely (purely because no. of town> no. of scum). I think that people are giving too much credit for MP because of its awful playstyle. Acting like this in any situation doesn't prove MP to be town. For being so unpredictatable, it can be either. On top of that, if MP is a vig, I'm just saying as an example, it could be killing the most protown people with its power.

---

Anyway, I agree that we should only lynch MP if we have no other worthy candidates to choose from on D1. However, as the game continues and every vote can potential be critical to the outcome, I have no objection on lynching MP later in the game if it keeps playing like this.

[XReyoX]

Lowell:
Could you please explain the theory behind the Y/Near scumteam? I don't seems to see it at the moment.

[XReyoX]

Sammich:
I'm sorry if I've missed your answer somewhere. Why did you claim, why do you think that it was a good time to claim townie and what made you think you want to vouch for mafiaplayer because you are a townie.

---

Sammich:
There is a difference between sparking useful discussion and useless discussion. Besides, in terms of usefully, I would give MP a negative. Thats why I want him to be replaced, not lynched.

[XReyoX]

Lowell, I assume you're referring to this when you said Y and Near could be scumteam, right?

@ Near: We're all happy you're here, but could you add some of your own thoughts? It's your second post, and the second time you just vote some one due to some other player's reasons.

I see where that came from, but it is kind of one-sided IMO.

---

btw is it possible to have a SK or a cult in this game?

[XReyoX]

Lowell:
It seemed a little like Y was coaching Near a bit in his post. Again, this isn't exactly a smoking gun, but it's good enough.

Can you cite the source?

X

This post was not from me Ask Lowell

[XReyoX]

In the meantime, I think Cat herder and phantom should post more although I know that phantom is busy.

[XReyoX]

mod:

Can we have MP's links to be removed? I think linking to other mafia sites is violating the general forum rules.

You asked for them. Were you trying to get me banned?

X

No, I didn't. Sorry, I didn't notice jerubbaal asked for it when I post that.

---

Jeez, why are people pointing at me for things I didn't say?

[XReyoX]

Hello gorckat!

[XReyoX]

First and foremost: I AM NOT a girl! Why do I have to bring this up every single game. Read the gender icon.... read

---

Near: it was just as example. I forgot that we had our vig killed already (my first game with a night start). But I was just trying to make an extreme case since other roles don't have so much of an effect. I don't think MP is a vig anyway.

[XReyoX]

jerubbaal is acting too townie, it feels like he's aligning his posts to use as defense later.

Near:
Sorry that i didn't ask you earlier, but could you clarify a bit more about how jerubbaal was aligning his posts?

[XReyoX]

Sammich:
I'm sorry if I've missed your answer somewhere. Why did you claim, why do you think that it was a good time to claim townie and what made you think you want to vouch for mafiaplayer because you are a townie.

Please?

[XReyoX]

At the time i wrote that post, it was mostly a gibberish. You should ignore it. But what do you think about this:

I'll look into it tmr. Are you trying to deflect my attention?

---

[XReyoX]

jerrubaal was the first person to question mafiaplayer for his role. I have not yet played with mafiaplayer in my previous games, but jerrubaal seems to think he's trying to mess up this game. then comes up with a clever, yet not fool-proof way to confirm MP's vanilla claim. at the same time though, he seems to be pretty convinced that MP is vanilla. plus this post:

Top left corner of the box in your role PM, what is it? You have something there, I guarantee.

Ok, here's yet another speculation by me, but isn't he trying too hard to look townie here?

Both scum and town can try hard to proof themselves townie. There is no "too hard" in my book so I don't think it is a scumtell. Jerubbaal thinks MP is messing up this game and I agree with that. It is obvious.
His attempt on ask MP for his role to see if MP is lying seem fine, although getting the answer right doesn't means MP is town. It means if MP is town, MP is probably vanilla. Thats it. Jerubbaal being the first to ask doesn't make him scum either. First, second or third.... makes no difference to me.

---

Near:
Asking me to ignore some of your posts doesn't seem right. Even if it is a whole lot of rubbish, I'd like you to tell me where it has come from. It is scummy to throw something out here and wish someone can back you up or finding reasons for you.

---

Sammich's #175 seems fabricated to me. Voting for himself doesn't make it more believable.

- for vouching for mafia player

Already discussed.

Where?

---

Sammich:
I'm sorry if I've missed your answer somewhere. Why did you claim, why do you think that it was a good time to claim townie and what made you think you want to vouch for mafiaplayer because you are a townie.

[XReyoX]

Um, guys? Since when is voting for yourself with a real pair of dice a scum-tell?

Not a scumtell, but not a good play either.

[XReyoX]

I don't get it. Why is it not a good play? Are you placing that much weight behind the random voting stage?

No, I don't put much weight behind it. But my point is that the random voting stage serves to create some discussion. A series of joke votes get people talking. Dicevoting is not scummy. However, it shows that the player who dicevote is either too lazy or do not want to take any responsibility for his vote. The dicevote also does not provoke any discussion at all. Just imagine if everyone dicevote at the beginning, where shall we go from there? It's something I've learnt recently. Joke vote>dicevote

[XReyoX]

I think sammich lied because it is almost impossible to decide all the roll correspondence, roll the dice, flip a coin and post, all in 1 minute.

[XReyoX]

I think we should start whether lying is scumtell tho.

[XReyoX]

Well, I could be wrong and he actually rolled the dice, but I find that hard to believe.

The point I'm trying to make is that I highly doubt sammich rolled the dice.

Look at the time difference between the post where he messed up the code and the post where he said he rolled a dice and vote for himself.

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: 10
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: 11

1 minute.

So. in 1 minute, he
1) messed up the code and decide to do it manually
2) find 2 dice and a coin
3) assign 11 people and a reroll to each number
4) roll dice 1
5) reroll dice 1 again
6) roll dice 2
7) flip a coin
8) look up and see what he has got
9) type out his next post and submit it.

[XReyoX]

^ now you've got 1 minute, try it!

[XReyoX]

Hey sammich,

If its a joke vote, admit that it's a joke vote. Don't try do make something up later on in the game so that you seem innocent. It doesn't work. I don't like lying town. Voting yourself doesn't make you a town either. What has a night start got to do with voting yourself anyway?

Tbh, I'm not too concerned about that like I've said. It's just something I'm not very happy with.

---

Sammich:
I'm sorry if I've missed your answer somewhere. Why did you claim, why do you think that it was a good time to claim townie and what made you think you want to vouch for mafiaplayer because you are a townie.

1,2,3,4...

[XReyoX]

gorckat:
You've missed the post where Sammich admitted he lied. I didn't say it was physically impossible. Just highly unlikely. Thats why I persued the issue further along with other stuffs. The fact that he lied about one thing and then craft something to cover it up indicates he could do so with other cases as well. Since a scum wouldn't gain anything from what sammich did, it doesn't look like a scumtell to me. However, the fact that he continuously ignored my question is starting to get irritating.

---

Imat is right about the argument on scum avoiding scumtells. It leads us into a loop.

---

Sammich:
I'm sorry if I've missed your answer somewhere. Why did you claim, why do you think that it was a good time to claim townie and what made you think you want to vouch for mafiaplayer because you are a townie.

Is this neglect or selective reading?

[XReyoX]

If I'd have to guess how he came up with the list. I'd say he filled it up while scrolling and skimming up and down page 1.
dice1
MP-first post.
lowell and incognito- third post.
Me- second post.
Then sammich himself.
dice2:
phantom, cat, tony and imat. All appeared a few post later.
and then jerubbaal.
Y and near didn't appear on Page1 so they are last on the dice.

---

it's interesting to know whether I'm right sammich

[XReyoX]

No. people on the second dice appeared after he had rolled the dice me think.

[XReyoX]

Me also think the dice-rolling thing should end here...

---

Me also think sammich should answer this...

Sammich:

I'm

sorry

if

I've

missed

your

answer

somewhere.

Why

did

you

claim,

why

do

you

think

that

it

was

a

good

time

to

claim

townie

and

what

made

you

think

you

wanted

to

vouch

for

mafiaplayer

because

you

are

a

townie.

---

Me also think we should hear what lowell has to say since he thinks what we're discussing is useless.

[XReyoX]

XReyoX - You have at least one mistake: I "was" Fat Tony at the time.

Oh yea. I'm probably wrong then.

[XReyoX]

Sammich:
Are you testing my patience?

---

Near:
Test?

---

Incognito:
I like LAL but have never done it.

[XReyoX]

Mod:

Please prod MP. It has been more than 72 hours since his last post. Thanks

[XReyoX]

Incognito has explained well on what I was trying to say. Dicevoting does NOT indicate someone is scum.

Lying is not a good behaviour and if I’d have to choose from two candidates who are equally scummy and get one of them lynch, I’d choose the lying one. HOWEVER, lying alone doesn’t indicate one is scum especially when the lie doesn’t give any benefit at all to the scum. If say, sammich lied that he is a sane cop and presented a guilty result on player X who is then revealed to be a town. I’d say he would be scum. But in the case of lying about dicevoting, I don’t see how a scum can benefit from it.

---

Avoiding questions IS scummy. (sammich)
Rewinding IS also scummy. (near)

---

Y:
I disagree with this.

Since I think Near is confusing the town and does whatever he can just to get some one lynched, I'll

Vote Near

.

To me, it seems like he really really thinks sammich is scum and is trying to prove it to us instead. I’d let him finish with that “test” before deciding whether he should be lynch. At the moment, the wagon seems too big to my liking.

---

Imat:
A list can provide information for the scum to make better decisions with their NK. However, it allows the town to see a better picture of what direction a player is heading to and generate discussion as well. So, the best thing is to list and make cases against who you think is scummy but leave out the people who you think is town since that piece of info is useful to the scum but not so helpful for the town.

---

I agree with ripley that it is suspicious that sammich has put a lot of his attention on the night start. To a townie, it just means the potential cop out their has done an investigation (i guess?) and the vig is dead. It means almost nothing.

---

Ripley:
The request was serious.

[XReyoX]

2. As been pointed before me, you give priority to a somewhat irrelevant action, while ignoring completely one which is much more relevant.

This is your opinion. I have something I want to say once Sammich responds to my question.

Read the whole sentence please. I'm not the only one who thinks so.

I agree with Y to a certain extent on this one. Near is not focusing on the more meaningful scumtell IMO. The thing I'm not sure about is whether he is ignoring (intentionally) or missing (unintentionally).

Near:
Test?

You used it as if XReyoX agreed with you that it's a test. You misrepresented his words as if he was supporting you, while he was actually questioning you.

Simply misunderstanding. Not a scumtell i think.

You're at L-2. We're not lynching you yet, but you're not giving me any good reason not to do so.

1)We have more than 2 weeks until the end of the day.
2)He is very active and we will be able to get more information out of him if he is scum.
3)We need to wait for more people to respond to this.

---

Near:
You said sammich has passed your test already. Then why do we have to wait for more responses from him?

[XReyoX]

MP:

Reasons please.

---

[XReyoX]

Thats the reason why I don't want MP here. We'll always have to leave a leeway to prevent someone being lynched prematurely just in case MP suddenly jumps on.

[XReyoX]

And his reason doesn't even make any sense at all.

[XReyoX]

Near:
Why is it soo soo sooo important that you need to know whether sammich lied about his dicevote?

[XReyoX]

Near:
Why is it soo soo sooo important that you need to know whether sammich lied about his dicevote?

XReyoX, this is what I think. If sammich has lied about the dice thing, he is very likely to be a scum. Do you not agree?

No, not really. What i think is lying about the diceroll achieve nothing in favour for the scum. It probably means he is a stupid liar only.

[XReyoX]

Unvote

XRX, I'm curious why you're dissing this whole investigation now. You did bring it up in the first place.

I brought up the idea that I think sammich lied, but I don't think i started the investigation. I'm curious to know about it because when I first saw sammich's huge stunning post about how fair his diceroll is and saw that he did it in 1-2 minutes, it made me think "lol, sure, in 1 minute".
I'm asking to end this because people are only commenting on it and Near is like" We NEED to find out if sammich has lied about his dice. If he has he MUST be scum" which is not not true. Then now people are saying "Near IS scum because he is attacking sammich for his diceroll" which again I don't agree is a reliable piece of evidence that indicate he is scum. I'm sorry for bringing it up.

[XReyoX]

Anywho, I for one think it is fairly relevant. If he did make the whole thing up, it shows an over-concern for justifying himself, something more inherent to scum than townies. Not full-proof, but I'd be strongly inclined to think that he was scum if he purely made it up to justify himself. The intricacy/inanity of it inclines me to believe that it was made up.

I agree with this. Thats why I'd choose to lynch a liar over a non-liar if they look equally scummy to me.

[XReyoX]

At this point i almost feel like there are 5 scums in this game.

You wouldn't mind pointing them out and do some explanation, do you, Near?

[XReyoX]

It means you have to re-think about your logic and playstyle. People don't attack you based on nothing, and i doubt all the scums are attacking you. When a town get lynched, the problems usually don't lie on the others, but himself.

Do you really have nothing to comment on other than sammich and his dice?

[XReyoX]

OK

Vote: Sammich

If thats the only way to get an answer from you.

I've asked the question for what...

7

times?

Just answer it for god sake.

[XReyoX]

so? i dun see where the reasons are.

[XReyoX]

I'm more and more suspicious of sammich's play. He seems to be only focused on himself and is skimming the thread, ignoring majority of the questions that are asked. I'm getting a feeling that he is not scumhunting at all too. He wrote a huge post about how fair his roll was but spend almost no effort in answering his questions. He accussed me for make a big fuss about MP's playstyle and said I could have just said MP is a mudkip instead of all that. And then he credited MP for sparkling discussion. I don't see the logic behind. On one hand he is saying I should stop talking about MP, on the other hand he is saying MP is doing a good job to encourage discussion.

[XReyoX]

What is a common scum MO?

[XReyoX]

Why does he have to vote?

[XReyoX]

Maybe because I have other things to do than sit at the computer and speculate about some user rolling a dice?

Maybe you should pay attention to the thread and put some effort into answering the questions. They don't get solved automatically when all you do is avoid them. You should know where the problem lies when people are calling out on you.

[XReyoX]

I had another thought about Near's scumlist. Tbh, it does sound a but like trying to appeal others by saying they are on his townlist in the hope that they would return the favor. I'm not sure if that is classified as buddying up as Imat pointed out.

---

I still feel like Near is staying on that wagon just because he thinks leaving it wouldn't worse than staying on it without a really good reason.

That is possible. However this can't be justified until Near has ended his case on sammich. If he is scum just trying to hang onto his target, it shouls be easy to tell later.

---

I'm having second thoughts about Y. He's no longer atop my scum list.

Lowell, why is that?

---

FTR, this dice debate is useless.

Me also think we should hear what lowell has to say since he thinks what we're discussing is useless.

Lowell, do you care to comment on anything else in the game?

I really hate these kinds of comments that criticize current happenings but do nothing to move us away from that kind of discussion.

[XReyoX]

What do you call a person who is not a scum but wins with a scum and whose wish is to be lynched in order to save scum?

The mysterious Flying Pig?

[XReyoX]

Near summarizes well. Another point I'd like to add is that Sammich can remember all these plus the date he cleared his PM

BUT Not

his rolename. Hell, I don't even remember what I had for dinner a week ago. Compulsive liar?

I just hope people who are neglecting the probability to see where this is coming from.

As much as a liar I think sammich is, I don't think it can tell us his alignment. Those lies doesn't really serve any purpose in favor for the scum I think. Uneccessary, I would say.

[XReyoX]

Mod:

Please prod Mafiaplayer. Thanks

[XReyoX]

I don't think there would be a jester. otherwise it is almost impossible to play because we'll always end up with "he is really scummy, should we lynch him? no, he could be a jester" We can't play like this.

[XReyoX]

Y:
It is no good moaning about Near going on circles. The problem lies behind sammich not responding to the questions properly. If you have anything new or important that you think we should talk about, then say it. I don't see how you're being helpful by just saying- this discussion is useless and the deadline in coming.

[XReyoX]

If the Day makes it to deadline there will be no lynch.

Also, Mafiaplayer has asked for replacement. Hopefully I can get that arranged asap.

[XReyoX]

welcome Mizzy

[XReyoX]

Jerubbaal:

It doesn't make sense that you think sammich is town while accusing Near for throwing Sammich (his scumbuddy) under the bus then took his vote back in fear of lynching him.

Sammich has to be scum in the first place for that to be logical don't you think?

[XReyoX]

As much as I don't think Near's investigation was incredibly useful mainly because he ends up with some sort of idea that sammich is a jester, I do not feel that his effort was spent intentionally to lead the town into this endless spiral.
Whinging about how this discussion is useless while not trying to raise another (more useful) discussion to me looks worse than commenting on the discussion. If you (Y) can point out something else that we should discuss, I’d be more than happy to join. I don’t see why can’t you just ignore Near’s investigation and dig out something you think is relavent for us if you think we’re wasting our time instead of complaining.

---

Near:

Is there absolutely nothing you can talk about beside sammich? Your tunnel vision is starting to concern me.

[XReyoX]

Lowell:

I'm sure you understand why you're one prod from being replaced.

[XReyoX]

I also think that Lowell is very non-committal. Just showing up and say he's sticking with his vote seems like an attempt to prevent people from reading him. Not to say there wasn't much strong evidence behind it. Just 2 lines of reasons.

[XReyoX]

I've already explained that I lied on purpose when I said Sammich passed my test. I lied because I wanted Sammich to think I don't suspect him anymore. Then I proceeded to ask him who he thinks are scums.

Wait, wait. Near, are you saying the whole "Test" we were talking about is a load of crap?! Why do you want him to think you didn't suspect him anymore?

[XReyoX]

@Reyo:

Who are you currently most suspicious of? It seems like you're most suspicious of Sammich but you're still voting for Mafiaplayer/Mizzy.

unvote

Sammich's play is quite suspicious but not to the point where I'd want to lynch him now. I'm trying to read other people's posts at the moment, namely Y, Gorkcat, Lowell and Imat. I don't think Near is scum.

I'll try and post in details before the deadline.

[XReyoX]

#5, Mafiaplayer
“I roleclaim vanilla townie…vote Avinashv”
Bizarre roleclaim. I don’t think this can confirm whether MP is mafia or not.

#10-11, Sammich
“I rolled a dice in real life…Vote Sammich”
Looks like a lie to me. Not a scumtell tho.

#16,#20, Mafiaplayer
MP voted for sammich and ignored incognito’s question (#13, Incognito)

#25, Jerubbaal
In response to MP’s claim,” …claiming this early is bad, because your job as a vanilla townie is to draw kills away from power roles…What's your rolename again?” …….Voted Lowell(based on metagaming)
I ruled out that MP and jerubbaal are a scumpair in this post, due to the asking of MP’s rolename. I think, if jerubbaal is scum and MP is his partner, he would set this up which can be a potential solid scumtell if MP gets it wrong. And judging on MP’s bizarre behaviour, this can result in a lynch easily and will be a loss on the scum side.

#35, Incognito
“I personally could see Newb scum attempting to role claim Vanilla right from the start.”
This is what I initially thought.

#37, Mafiaplayer
Ignoring my questions (#33) and Jerubbaal’s question (#25)

#41, Jerubbaal
Jerubbaal’s explanation for his metagaming vote seems fine to me as a reason for a vote at the random voting stage.

#45, Incognito
Incognito pointed out the crapness of Mafiaplayers theories about the claim. And I agree with them.

#46 #47, Mafiaplayer
“I didn't get a name.” “Vote:XreyOx. She just accidentally admitted Mafia.”
I don’t understand any of those. And Mafiaplayer was still ignoring other people’s questions. The same goes for #50

#54, Sammich
“I guess I can vouch for him because

I just got called a townie in my role pm.

It's been a while since I had a night start, I'm having fun”
OK this is where my first suspicion came from. First is for vouching Mafiaplayer. There is no reasons at all. Secondly, the italic part is just obviously a lie. The word “townie” shouldn’t appear in a vanilla’s PM. Third, I don’t see why a night start is so significant to vanilla.

#61, jerubbaal
“Imat is fearmongering like hell with his whole "Woe be to the town" post. And then he calms down pretty much immediately and goes all analytical, not seemingly worried anymore about the irreparable harm done to the town.”
I do agree with that tho its not a scumtell to me. But somehow I feel that Jerubbaal has come to conclusion that both sammich and Mafiaplayer are townie to quickly.

#63, jerubbaal
“Sammich wants to justify the other townie who has claimed without a specific rolename. If he was scum, I doubt he'd want to vouch for mafiaplayer.”
I do not agree with this one because what I believe is that if sammich is scum, then he would know that Mafiaplayer is town. Since MP is obviously playing badly, there is a potential that he will be lynched. By vouching for a town, he can put himself in a better position the next day if MP gets lynched.
#64, Lowell
“I dont' think claiming townie on D1 really matters. Let's all just chill out.”
Dampening discussion.

#70, Mafiaplayer
“It would appear that, quickly after replacing in, Y is ignoring some posts and focusing on others.”
Mafiaplayer is the one who is ignoring others. Still haven’t answer the questions addressed to him.

#71, Sammich
Dodging Y’s question “what makes you, as vanilla, able to vouch for a player?” by just answering about the timegap between his posts.
“Third, I don't know, I shortened it, use that as a tell as you want, I deleted my PMs 3 days ago.”
Seems like another lie to me (the deleting of his PM 3 days ago) and a bad excuse for not getting it right.

#82, Sammich
Still hasn’t responded to the questions from Y, Near or me, but went on attacking Imat?

#68, Imat“I got angry jerubaal, stupid plays like Townie claims serve to point out the Power Roles that much faster.”
#84, Imat“As to the "Getting angry" that you still believe Sammich, I explained it, very poorly I'll admit, but I wasn't angry. If every player continued claiming I would've been angry.”
So which one was it? Angry or not angry?

#90, Incognito
“Lowell, did you really fall for that?”
This trap/attack sounds weird. I took your post about telling Lowell to vote for Near instead of Y to be a side-hand comment. I feel like after you’ve seen Lowell changed his vote, you tried to make something out of it.

“@Near: You've now effectively posted a grand total of four times and in each and every one of your posts you've voted for someone different.”
I agree that it is not a very good behaviour in addition that his reason for voting Imat, in the hope that he will panic, is very off. But I don’t see a scummy intention behind this, especially Imat hasn’t got a wagon or anything and its quite early in the game.

[XReyoX]

I'm trying to break it down as one every 100 posts so that it's not going to look like an enormous spam when I finish.

[XReyoX]

#93, Sammich
“At first I just was overwhelmed by the action (last time I had a night start I was replaced, and it didn't go to well) I felt that there were probably better scumhunting targets than Mafiaplayer and I still think that.”

Last time when there was a night start, sammich was scum. I’m wondering what he was referring to when he said he didn’t do too well.

#100, Sammich
Question dodging again. Basicly he is saying he has answered whatever thrown at him but other cant see it when in fact he hasn’t I believe.

#108, jerubbaal
“…because the more traditional tells don't work because he doesn't actually have any comprehensible logic to his action. I'm still reading Mafiaplayer as fairly townie.”
This is where I don’t understand why claiming on the first post and being ridiculous makes someone town.

#110, Near
“My voting wasn't tried to test you. I voted you because I thought your were scummy. But your response must have been satisfactory, because I unvoted u.”
I’m not sure whether I’m reading this correctly but it sounds like Near unvoted Imat and THEN went on to find a reason (being his response was satisfactory). Instead of finding Imat’s response satisfactory, therefore he unvoted. The other way round, which is weird, on the second read.

#115, thephantom
“I feel that it is possible that Mafiaplayer isn't scum and maybe he is just playing poorly. That does not rule out my suspicion of him though.”
Possibly, maybe, ya, but no, but I’m suspicious of him…… Wishy washy. Thephantom was non-commital.

#139, Lowell
“MP is turning it aournd in my book”
Why was that?

#175, Sammich
“Believe this story or not, there's not enough proof I rigged it IMO. … who would really vote for themselves anyway?”
In here, Sammich was trying to use

negative proof

to say he did not lie. The second part is an

appeal to ridicule

to me by emphasizing the counter-intuitive aspect of his act. The

misleading vividness

of the description of his dicerolling is also offputting.

#200, Sammich
“Vote Sammich There, does that make it seem like I'm trying to be fair?”

Appeal to pity

[XReyoX]

I'm re-reading. Some of them are things that I want to emphasize and others are things I just notice or stuffs the I've missed. Near drew almost all my attention for many pages and I think I've missed out some of the other stuffs. Instead of doing a pbp analysis. I think its easier to do it by the whole game.

[XReyoX]

#216, jerubbaal
“You(Near) seem to be taking quite a bit of offense at a very minor point. You also assume that everything the scum do, they do deliberately.”
QFT

#224, Lowell
“FTR, this dice debate is useless.”
Stopping discussion without suggesting a direction about where we can go instead.

#276, Ripley
“I’m starting to wonder if MP has some private win condition relating to invalid votes”
I don’t think so, by reading MP previous games. It’s more likely to be a poor play.

#279, Y
“I believe Near saw a growing wagon and decided to jump in, using the most recent accusation.”
Sammich at that time when Near voted for him, has only got 1 vote. While MP had 3, phantom had 1 and Y had 1. Do you consider that Sammich as a growing wagon when I lay it out clearly?

#326, gorckat
“If you were saying that I was taking a middle road, fence-riding postition in order to go whichever way the wind blew, that would be understandable. But you're not; you're picking and choosing what you want to say is scummy.”
What do you mean by picking and shooing what Lowell wants to say is scummy. I think his accusation about how he was suspicious about the way you were defending sammich was a fair point.

#334, gorckat
“To answer incognito, I think that Y is pushing the analysis along more than a scum would, especially in such a quick-posting game.”
I feel that this is not a good answer and it is in fact the reverse of the “too townie” accusation. No?

#337, Near
“I believe Sammich is a jester.”
!!! I’ve missed this totoally. Will comment on it after the whole thing.

#366, Mizzy
“what did I replace? No wonder Destructor was so nice to me when he asked me to replace in”
I think I’m metagaming. But I think this kind of means that Mizzy/MP is town if she is not lying about Destructor being so nice when asking her to replace in.

[XReyoX]

Y: I really don't know. I guess its either your points have been said and/or I've commented on it before. I'll try to read your posts again. What do you think I'll have to comment on about your posts urgently?

[XReyoX]

I meant which posts would you like me to comment on first.

[XReyoX]

Last time when there was a night start, sammich was scum. I’m wondering what he was referring to when he said he didn’t do too well.

About this, do you know which game it was specifically where he had a night start?

This is the game

#643

The game was abondoned but in 643 and 644, his scumbuddies revealed that he was the remaining scum. I assume that Fonz and Jordan are telling the truth since they have no reasons to lie after the game had ended.

The more I read, the more I'm suspicious of sammich's attitude about the night start. I think this is something worth discussing.

[XReyoX]

You attributed 334 to me, but it was Lowell.

As for my own 326, I did phrase that clumsily. The way he said he didn't care what I was doing currently (voting Sammich after defending him) struck me as odd- he was looking at my actions out of context and ignoring what came after.

Sorry, messed up up the tags.

[XReyoX]

Near:

Post your thoughts on (all) other people please if you can. A detailed one. Thanks.

[XReyoX]

Y:

I see what you mean. If Near is scum he is probably clinging onto his case.

[XReyoX]

What are you doing Niv =_=?

[XReyoX]

I think it’s important for me to present two detailed cases. Due to the amount of effort we’ve all spent on Near and his interactions between Sammich, who I believe is scum at the moment, they are to me the two candidates who will be providing the most information for us to work on tomorrow.

Since I believe Sammich is scum, I’ll put his case together first. The most significant wagon was Near’s, since page 5, with at least 3 votes all the time and occasionally going up to 4 or 5. Sammich on the other hand had never gotten over 2 votes. Looking at the vote count, it fits perfectly with my suspicion that Sammich is scum whilst Near is innocent. By pushing Near to his lynch, and stopping people from looking at Sammich, the scums can be killing two birds with one stone. Not to mention that the two wagons are somewhat imbalanced, in my point of view. If Near is scum, I’d believe the attack against him would have been less vigorous (perhaps this is not the exact word to use, but I guess you know what I mean), every single point he has presented was accused by at least one person, at some point, to be scummy. He hung on to his case earlier, then someone said that he was too scared to leave it alone after his attack. He backed off afterwards then someone pointed out that he was wasting our time. I’ll talk about this later.

<<-Sammich->>

//1. Voting pattern.\\
None.
He voted himself, twice. The first one, I take it as a joke vote, regardless of whether he has rolled his dice or not. He might have lie, which I believe so, but that is not the point. His self-vote at the beginning shows nothing. His second vote #200 is an appeal to pity. Non-productive. Not a major scumtell but I can see that as something that is only-beneficial to the scums.

//2. Scumhunting.\\
Little to none.
#93, Sammich
“FoS Incognito too, at one point he urges Lowell to vote Near, then berates him for falling into his trap. Or it was sarcasm, in which I substitute that FoS and place it on Lowell for just following Incognito around like a lost dog or something.”
This is the only view on other people amongst all his posts. He is even wishy washying his FoS. I feel that it can be flipped both ways depending on how it goes. Incognito <-> Lowell.

//3. Roleclaim.\\
“I just got called a townie in my role pm.”
Firstly, he couldn’t have been called a townie in his role pm. Secondly, it wasn’t the right time. Thridly, he hasn’t got a right reason to do so, imo. He can believe Mafiaplayer is a townie for many other reasons, but “because he is a townie too” seems weird. And claiming at that point can only cause damage to the town. Saying he has deleted his PM, thus not getting the rolename right, seems very convenient as ripley has pointed out, plus he can remember when he did it as well.

//3. Diceroll.\\
It wasn’t impossible, but is very highly unlikely. The list is disjointed. He remembered what he has rolled, who was on which dice, which side the coin came up with. Every single step, every single detail was described, like a cam recorder was there. Provided that it was 11 days after the event, I think it is unlikely. I believe he is using misleading vividness to convince us that he rolled the dice as I’ve pointed out before. While on the same posts with his diceroll, he said “Believe this story or not, there's not enough proof I rigged it.”, he is using both burden of proof and negative proof in the same sentence to persuade us. The next, he said “Anybody can simply go offline and fabricate a story like this but who would really vote for themselves anyway?”. To me, he is using appeal to ridicule to further reinforce his case.
#203“If its a joke vote, admit that it's a joke vote. Don't try do make something up later on in the game so that you seem innocent…” I asked. “Fine it was a joke vote.” Sammich answered. This post, to me, looks like he has given up his story and admitted that he was making things up. If he, indeed, rolled the dice, it is more natural for him to stand by his story and said it was a dicevote. Imat think that this post is a joke itself. I’ll discuss below.

//4. Evasiveness\\
There is no doubt Sammich was evading questions, not only mine, but many else as well. Other than the description of his diceroll, everything else was not clear. An example would be his claim for his vote being a jokevote. Most people didn’t pick up the exact meaning of his post, thus causing again a lot of confusion. After people had started questioning him about his vote again (which is an indication of our uncertainty), it seems to me that he decided to stick with his story again. This is what I feel.
He did not answer the questions addressed to him properly. And no, “Yes, yes, no, short term memory, facepalm” are not satisfactory answers to me. Refusing to answer questions openly is not something I’d considered protown either. ->Near, “Why the heck isn't Sammich answering my questions? Why is he not answering anyone else's questions?”. Sammich, “Maybe because I have other things to do than sit at the computer and speculate about some user rolling a dice?”

//5. Night start\\
This, I believe, is the main reason I’m suspecting sammich at the moment. Firstly, I’ve never played in a game with a night start before and I don’t see how it is different from other games with a day start. I fail to see why sammich is so excited or overwhelmed by this.
#54“It's been a while since I had a night start, I'm having fun.”
#93“last time I had a night start

I was replaced, and it didn't go to well

”
#200“ “But if you really think I was trying to do this to make me seem "fair",

why? In a night start? Voting myself in a night start?

”
Last time when he had a night start, he didn’t go to well, he was scum, the scumteam would have a very very small chance of winning if the game had continued. See This game and the two following posts which summarize how bad the situation the scums were in (by JordanA24 and LaptopGun if you can’t be bothered to read the whole page through.#646 & #647
When he said he didn’t go too well, it could mean two things. He was either referring himself as a scum or as a player in general. If he was only referring him being a player in general, I fail to see the excitement for having a night start. However, and this is important, if he is a scum again, then this fits in very well. Because this game would be like a second chance for him, as a scum, to have a nightstart, which means he gets a free kill. Combining with mafiaplayer being so out of order and all that (he referred these as the overwhelming actions), which is beneficial for the scum because it draws away people’s attention and provide countless opportunities for the scums to join in the create mayhem, I can start to understand how a player can be overwhelmed and messes up his claim and whatever. The second post which he mentioned about the night start. He was replying to Y’s question: “I still want to know

how do you know Mafiaplayer's real role

.“Only scums know MP’s role and no, it wasn’t even an answer to Y’s question. In his third mentioning of the night start, he was referring to his diceroll. Firstly, nightstart and fairness do not, in anyway that I can think of, has any link. However, a nightkill can. I’m more inclined to think that, with him being scum in my mind, he generated this kill that way and killed the vig which is good news for the scums.

//6. Wagon\\
Avoiding his questions, not contributing, potential lying, the night start comment, roleclaiming and vouching for mafiaplayer, etc…I mean, if he is a target of the scum, he would have been lynched by now I believe. Two votes were what he had got once. I just don’t feel right about this. Perhaps everyone can see through this better than I do. Perhaps I’m too focused and taking those posts the wrong way. There seems to be some apparent reasons I’m missing.

I’m hoping you guys can give a thought about these, although I agree that Near is also a good lynch for today in terms of the info that he’s going to give us if his role is revealed. Since our vig is dead and I doubt there would be another one, I think, at the very least, the cop should consider investigating sammich aka his replacement Niv.

Niv, could you also comment on sammich and try to explain his thought process as well although I understand you cannot represent him. Thanks.

As a side note, I had some suspicion on those who were/was trying to prove sammich was telling the truth and how he could have done the whole process of his dicerolling. But I believe unless we can prove sammich’s alignment, it is too far to come to conclusion.

I’ll post about Near next.

[XReyoX]

Mod:

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to ask this. But when you said sammich didn't pick up his prod, do you mean it is still in your outbox or it is in your sentbox but he didn't reply. Thanks.

[XReyoX]

Incognito:

?? no. Sorry, it's probably my english. They weren't my own and I wasn't borrowing it. I stated i don't think Near was scum earlier.#398Thats why the "If" was there. Y was telling me where he was coming from and I was saying I understand how he's viewing this. I was using "someone" because I can't remember who commented on it and I didn't bother looking back because it wasn't about Near anyway.

[XReyoX]

Near:

Don't be stupid. I don't think he has a restriction.

I don't know what a soothsayer is but is it relevant. Isn't that an NPC?

If you are town. It probably means those who are piling on you are scums. I don't think townie alone can get you lynched.

[XReyoX]

Y, Incognito:

Are you waiting for others to see how they would respond to the main bit (the sammich bit) before laying down your views? If you're to comment on it, I'd appreciate you to respond to the maybe more important ones, other than the ones at the beginning and at the end first.

[XReyoX]

Ripley, I was really confused too. I started doing the vote count myself but then I decided to just single out the mod's official vote count instead in that bit of analysis.

I'll be out with my friends this weekend, so I would be posting little/none until monday.

[XReyoX]

No. Its not illogicall that people attacking one poerson won't vote for the other, obviously. However, if they are both town, I'd believe sammich's wagon would be as big, if not bigger than Near, this is my current view. This leads to the question of whether it's because sammich is scum, therefore he is low on the wagon count, or Near is scum and his buddies are kind of bussing him, or both, or neither, etc and etc... It is usually the case that the more someone post, the more potential scumtell he is going to make (everything, you do or not do, in most cases, can be manipulated as a scumtell). With all these, and that is the reasons, I feel there is a need to discuss. I think most people have been focusing on Near only, or mainly, all through the day and that is not a good thing. Even a townie, when concentrating on one person, with that person being scum in mind, would start cherrypicking, or at least I think I do.

[XReyoX]

It's is so convenient to say you’ve closed the window and is not going to provide us with a detailed summary of what you think of a game, which that has 19 pages.

Niv, “mafia plaers posts were painful to read. and I am so d he is no longer in the game.”
What do you mean my “so d”. Could you please type it out in MS word or do some spell checks before posting please? The amount of typos in your post is making it difficult to read.

I think you ought to provide more than 2 lines to justify your vote really. You haven’t contribute to the discussion so far, as I’m seeing it.

[XReyoX]

Sorry. Got some personal issues to deal with recently and hasn't been in good shape to read things through properly. To be honest, I'd like to be replaced awhile ago already.

Unless it is very critical for me to do the Near case, I really don't want to do it anymore, seems like its not going to help a lot, helping someone to defend for himself.
Niv is my primary suspect.
If there are any questions or accussations against me, please please post them soon so that I can get them over with before leaving, and preferbly in bullet points so that it is easier to get them done. please.

Mod:

May I be replaced during the night, or earlier. Thanks . The reason for the leave is nothing do with the game itself mod. It has been a great game:(