Mini 578 - Mistery at Montescuro - Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

Confirmed

[Yosarian2]

Hey, all. No random vote yet.

Hey guys! Lots of familiar faces, even thought many are new ones. This should be fun .

Yeah, agreed. It's been ages since I've played a non-newbie game with this many people I don't know; that's mostly why I signed up for a mini normal, in fact. This should be fun

[Yosarian2]

Heh, Yos, you don't agree with me as much as you think -- 6 of the players are new acquaintances of mine, from mafia discussion, or my moding their newbie games (or IC newbie games), or ICing in their newbie games.

So they are new familiar faces. What do you think of that!?

Ok, then you should have a good meta for them; let me know when you figure out who's scum.

And why no random vote?

meh. I random vote about half the time.

[Yosarian2]

Let's leave the discussion on meta out of this thread, for now... I legitimately am coming to the opinion that using meta is a bad policy.

Yos, why random vote only half the time?

Meh. Different reasons. In this case, it didn't seem like another random vote would be helpful. Sometimes I like to random vote on my second post instead of my first, get better reations that way. And sometimes you might not want to random vote at all, like if you don't want to leave something that someone might misinterpret as a breadcrumb, and if that was the only time you didn't random vote it would kind of stand out as unusual, which you don't want. So all in all I try to random vote about half the time, I guess.

[Yosarian2]

So Guardian and SensFan, what are your reasons for voting for me? Random like VH or for different reasons?

I voted you because you had 2 votes already.

Ok. Could you explain why that's a good idea?

[Yosarian2]

1 person with 3 votes puts him closer to a lynch.

Ok. You still haven't answered my question, though. Why do you think that's a good idea?

[Yosarian2]

Ok, fair enough. Not that I necessarally agree, but whatver.

On an unrelated note,

vote:Near

who hasn't posted since his confirmation.

[Yosarian2]

Meh. Don't really agree with the votes on Guardian right now; looks like he's just trying to get some kind of conversation going day 1, and there's nothing wrong with questioning people's justifiaciton for their actions in theoretical terms the way he's been doing.

On another note, I see no reason to move by vote off of Near at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

Uh, if you attack someone for a bad reason, it looks scummy, yeah.

[Yosarian2]

Near's strange opening post with his equally strange justification. Although it seems like he plays the same way in all of his other games, the FoS reasonings made no sense. I can see the lighthearted joke post, if it were still in the random voting stage at that point. But he came in halfway into page 3 with that post, when there were more important issues that required some dealing with. Whether his disregard for the VH posting issue or Guardian's case on me is an attempt to keep himself from standing out, I don't know, but his lack of opinion on what everyone else is talking about is making him stand out even more, which would not be something a townie would do.

I don't think he's done anything too scummy, but his posts seem like they're distracting town rather than help town find mafia.

FoS: Near

This feels...wierd. Like James is both attacking Near and defending him at the same time. "Near is strange, but he always plays like this, but his FOS's make no sense, but he ignored more important issues, but I don't know, he dosn't seem to have opinions, but he hasn't done anything to scummy, but FOS him anyway".

Not really sure what to think about James, but this post could be scum trying to distance from scum, or scum trying to attack a townie without looking bad, or...who knows. It just feels kind of odd.

fos:James

[Yosarian2]

It's wierd in a way that looks kind of scummy, and I thought I just explained why it's scummy.

[Yosarian2]

unvote:near

By this point, that was mostly a lurker vote, and he seems to have stopped lurking for the moment.

I like the pressure on VH; he's probably the worst looking lurker right now. I also notice he has several FOS's against him, but I think he only 2 votes and only that with Guardian's vote, which seems strange for this fairly early part of day 1. Let's increse the pressure a bit, see if we can shake something loose.

vote:VH

.

[Yosarian2]

Still happy with my vote on VH. We'll see if he responds to the prod.

[Yosarian2]

Awesome, I haven't gotten to play a game with Coron in ages. Also, about 2/3'ds of the reason I was voting VH was for lurking, so

unvote:Coron

As for the rest of it, I could see a possible link between Pyro and JamesThePhox based on Pyro's reaction to Sensfan's vote of him. However, between the two, I actually think James looks scummier at the moment. I already mentioned I didn't like the wishy-washy comment about near he made earlier, and some of his other comments kind of feel like scum sitting on the fence, waiting to see which way the wind's going to go so he can follow other people's wagons. This one, especally, kind of gives me that vibe:

I'm not completely convinced that Near is off the hook. I still don't like his lack of contribution, however he is one good post above VH. I'll wait and see the other's posts.

For now

unvote

, but it's a toss up between VH and Near for me.

vote:JamesthePhox

[Yosarian2]

Near, to clarify, Phox is your #1 target, but the evidence on him is so shaky you don't want to see him lynched?

To clarify, I find Phox is scummy but the evidence on him is not enough to want to lynch him on Day 1 unless we must lynch someone due to deadline constraints.

You do know we have to lynch someone on day 1, right?

The town really shouldn't be waiting for the deadline to lynch someone, and scum tells on day 1 are never 100% solid, you shouldn't expect that. Or are you hoping someone will come out and claim scum or something?

[Yosarian2]

Pretty happy lynching either JamesthePhox or Near , especally so long as they both keep lurking.

Coron: Eh. I go back and forth. I do the long mega-post thing when it seems approperate; the thing is, right now the two scummiest people in the game are also the two lurkiest, so there's just not that much stuff to analyze. I don't do the wall of words stuff ALL THE TIME like I did when I was a newbie, if that's what your asking.

[Yosarian2]

So, um, you're FoSing me for being charismatic and for scum hunting. Good work.

Anyway, Near and Joudas, I don't really see the case against Guardian here. I mean, with his sudden Dasquin attack he certanly dosn't look like scum going for an easy bandwagon, unless his scumbuddies are both Near and Phox and he's trying to protect both of them, and that dosn't make any sense either since he was attacking Phox earlier. He mostly just looks like a townie trying to do some agressive scumhunting. I've got good vibes from him in general so far. If you could explain why you suspect him, that'd help. I'm asking both of you, but ESPECALLY directing this question to Near, since you just seem to be saying Guardian is scum but didn't give any reasons for it at all. Why, exactally, do you think Guardian is scum, Near?

[Yosarian2]

Post 234, where he asks if I prefer Near or Pyro, REEKS like he knows ONE of them is scum, and wants to catch me in a trap later when one of them turns up as scum.

I think you are reading too much into this. But if this was true, then he probably hoped that you say you prefer Pyro lynch over me, for reason obvious to me (that is, if Dasquian is indeed scum).

I'm...confused by this comment. Why would hypothetical dasquin-scum be hoping Guardian wants to lynch you instead of Pyro, Near?

[Yosarian2]

Hi Mike.

Near: I don't really think that whole thing was a "slip" per se, but I really don't like any kind of discussion or speculation like that about the cop like that, even in an offhand "I thought Guardian was the cop, then relized he wasn't..." kind of way. If you're town, it's not helpful because at the very least you're implying that you're not the cop with that comment, and if you're scum, it might be that you're trying to get a reaction from Guardian to find out if he's the cop.

[Yosarian2]

ahha, but in reality, a scum knows not to attract attention to themselves, and thus would inhibit less votes for themselves, and thereby winning the game.

Well, scum do TRY to attract less attention to themselves, sure, but that itself is a scumtell. People who act and look "scummy" really do tend to be more likely scum then not; if not, then you need to re-consider your own personal scumtells. Despite the fact that there's a number of scum votes confusing the issue, towns still do tend to lynch better then random most of the time, because you really can tell at least sometims who is scum based on how they act.

A good townsperson wants the mafia gone, and would be searching for them, therefore the most logical reasoning would be that those laying low are either Scum or a Non-Townie.

Well, that's true, but the think you're missing here is that part of the reason both Near and your predecessor got votes was because people think that it LOOKS like they are trying to "lay low" by not saying much, and like you just said, that's often how scum are likely to act.

[Yosarian2]

That post had so many double entende in it, I'm not sure what point you were trying to make other than the,

'Both cups could be poisoned' logic.

That's pretty much the exact opposite of what I said.

[Yosarian2]

I don't get any of this. Coron's claim dosn't make any sense, but I thought he looked pretty pro-town before the claim, and I think he's still pretty likely to be town now. The random claim seems...well, random, but it's not exactally something that would benifit scum in this situation. The idea that he randomally claimed tracker to try to DERAIL a Near wagon makes absolutly NO sense at all to me; how would him claiming a power role make it less likely that near gets lynched here?

Still pretty happy with my vote on DarlaBlueEyes. Her random "I am now certain Coron is scum" comment makes little sense, just seems to be going with the flow of what other people had said recently, and generally just feels scummy. The fact that she seems happy with either a Near lynch or a Coron lynch makes me unhappy about supporting either.

[Yosarian2]

Why shouldn't I be happy with either? Both have exhibited Suspicious behavior, and Coron's timing is enough to cause dissent and split the vote, and IMO his intent was to get me lynched to save both his and his scumbuddy's neck.

That still dosn't make any sense. Why would coron claiming tracker get people to unvote Near? Or do you really think that Coron claimed tracker just to get people to vote for HIM so they'd unvote Near? That would not only be terrible scum stratagy, it dosn't even make any sense; there's no reason to think people should be MORE likely to vote someone just because they claimed a protown power role. (And, btw, there IS no reason why people SHOULD be more likely to vote someone just because they claimed a pro-town power role; "he claimed tracker so he's scum" dosn't at all follow).

He suddenly claims as a deadline looms? and Near is one vote shy of a Lynch?

Again, it's a BAD play for him to claim here, but I don't see what it has to do with the Near wagon. People like you and MikeBurnFire reacted in a wierd way to his claim, and you're saying that you're reacting like this to his claim because his claim was scummy and his claim was scummy becuase it'd make you react like this. Uhhh....

[Yosarian2]

We wouldn't be at this point if you'd claimed a week ago when you first got the pressure. As it stands, with one day to go and you claiming vanilla townie, to do anything else now would be a bad plan.

Well, sure, except it looks like DarlaBlueEyes is more likely to be scum, and she's already at 3 votes anyway.

[Yosarian2]

Mike: I do agree his claim was wierd, and was a mistake if he's pro-town. But I still don't see how that fits your theory; if anything, him claiming a power role would be most logically expected to get people to unvote him/decide not to lynch him today/whatever, and if people stopped voting him, they'd actually be more likely to vote near, wouldn't they?

I donno, I guess I kind of subscribe to the old Jeep theory that most people on some level really want to tell you what their role is.

[Yosarian2]

Side note: Be Wary of Yosarian2. He's done almost nothing but pressure lurkers. Yeah yeah, I know, Nuke all Lurkers -- but that's

it

?

That's not why I'm voting Darla at all right now. SHe's not lurking at the moment, or anything like that; she just looks scummy to me.

I feel like confining your scum hunting to lurker pressuring day 1 is a really easy way out, bad idea, less than what I'd expect from Yosarian2 town, etc.

Again, I'm not.

Random speculation to think about: Yos2-Coron (From Yos's super quick unvote)?

Eh? I voted VH for lurking, and I kept the vote on him until he was replaced, which was like 5 days later. How is that a "super quick unvote"?

[Yosarian2]

Yos2, what other non lurker suspects have you attacked?

(shrug) I attacked VH for lurking. I attacked JamesthePhox because of suspicious posts on his part; he lurked later, which didn't help, but that was never the origional reason I was suspicious of him. Near I kind of attacked both for lurking and for looking scummy. Then after DBE replaced JamesthePhox, I continued to suspect her, mostly for suspicious moves on her part.

I don't like lurkers, but I don't think lurker hunting's been most of what I've been doing today.

[Yosarian2]

I'd ask Yosarian2 and Coron to remove your votes from DarlaBlueEyes, who has claimed a power role. She has said that she is going to claim come Day2, and she probably has reasons for saying so.

Her saying just "I am a power role" is pretty useless to the town; it's not the kind of claim that we could ever really confirm or deny, all it does is paint a big target on her back if she's telling the truth (especally since we already have a claimed information role) without really giving the town useful information. Between that, and her "I'll claim tommorow", it really just feels like a delaying tactic to me. You do what you want, but I'm not going to unvote based on something like that.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, that last minute Coron wagon was just bizzare. Mike, Guardian, could you explain again why you guys thought Coron was scum? The argument you guys kept giving was basically "Coron is scum who claimed tracker in order to somehow disrupt the Near wagon", and that never made any sense at all to me. And it seems that during the night you decided that Near was actually town, which made the argument even more absurd, and yet you went ahead and lynched Coron anyway. Could you explain your actions here?

[Yosarian2]

Yos:

Coron is scum because the timing at which he claimed is something that would only be done by a scummy, scummy, scumbag.

Townies only claim when near deadline or at lynch -1 at threat of them being lynched.

Coron claimed a while before deadline, and because he "felt pressured by my attac" of one vote

town players who do this draw the doc to them, MAYBE, IF THERE IS ONE, and have given the scum more info. there is damn little reason for a townie to do what Coron did.

scum otoh would hope to deflect all attention from them, since "ooh they are a power role". also, draw doc protect is AWESOME for scum, free range to kill whomever. Also they might draw out another investigative role like you said. if a cop for instance claimed, coron could be like "OH, but COP + tracker = legit". ANd wouldnt even be lycnhed maybe, and get a counterclaimd cop.

Town ==> VERY LITTLE to gain from claiming.
Scum ==> SUPER LOTS to gain from claiming.
Premise: Coron is a rational agent
Conclusion: Coron, acting rationally, only would have claimed like he did as scum.

Voterz for coorn

Yeah, that never really made sense to me. A scum, who's in no real danger of being lynched, would be taking a huge risk in claiming something like that for very little real gain. A claim like that is very, very hard to safelty fake for more then a day or two.

ANd I don't think it ever makes sense to lynch someone BECAUSE they claim a pro-town power role, unless you already thought he was scum beforehand. I really think that of all the people who suddenly wanted Coron dead after he claimed an info role, that at least some of them were almost certanly scum who wanted him dead because they knew he was telling the truth.

Also, you keep saying "Coron was a better lynch then Near". I don't think either Coron or Near was a good lynch yesterday, and I didn't think so then either. But it's a false choice; considering how quickly you and mikeburnfire whipped up that Coron wagon out of nowhere, there's no reason to think you couldn't have lynched someone else before deadline instead.

Claiming power role =/= town, 'specially under the circumstances he claimed, and considering his other actions.

No, but someone claiming a power role, without much of a case agsinst them, is an absolutly horrible day 1 lynch.

And by the way, what "other actions"? Your case against him seemed to consist entierly of his claim.

[Yosarian2]

Are you annoyed that you are responsible for a tracker lyn-

Fuck no. I'm not responsible for the tracker lynch. My vote was on Coron as a protest vote because I didn't want to lynch either of the main candidates. Even though I didn't trust Coron and heavily advocated his lynch, the way in which it was achieved was utter stupidity. He went from zero votes to majority votes in under 12 hours. Had I been awake around this time of deadline I would have unvoted him based on this evidence alone.

In a word, bull. You didn't lynch Coron just because you didn't want to lynch Near. You started going after Coron hard as soon as he claimed, and your logic made even less sense then Guardian's.

The ONLY actual case you made against Coron yesterday was entierly based on a theory that Coron was scum WITH Near, and that Coron claimed in order to "disrput the wagon on Near". As soon as you decided Near was town, your only even remotaly logical case agianst Coron basically ceased to exist, but that didn't even seem to deter you.

At the moment, looking back at yesterday and looking at Mike's attack on Guardian right away today, my hunch is that Mike was the scum trying to get the town to lynch the information role, and that his plan was always to try to get Guardian to take the fall for him.

vote:Mikeburnfire

[Yosarian2]

That's because I don't trust him. He's playing his cards close to his chest, and he's trying to force an attack on me right now, saying that I helped whip up the sudden Coron lynch (which I didn't, I just cast the first vote and left) and voting me for trying to lynch a power role (which is easy to do only now that I've been proven wrong).

Um, I thought it was a bad idea yesterday, if you remember. I thought all along that Coron was probably pro-town, I argued it several times yesterday, and you never gave a good reason why you thought he was scum. You still haven't.

And it's not like you "just cast one vote and left". You were attacking Coron, either directly or indirectly, from pretty much the moment he claimed, often with really, really scummy comments like:

I'll take a townie who plays well over a tracker who doesn't anyday.

And even today, you claim you thought that he was "trying to create mass confusion." How, exactally, does a tracker claim create mass confusion? Either people believe it, in which case, ok, there's a tracker, or they don't, in which case they attack him, or they do the smart thing and decide to take a wait and see attitude and see if the scum kill him or if he gets useful results for a night or two. None of those possible reactions could possibly "create mass confusion" in any way that could benifit Coron.

And yes, you're right, it is easy to attack you after you've helped push through a completly terrible lynch on a claimed power role on day 1 for reasons that make no sense at all. There's a very good reason for that, you know.

[Yosarian2]

You argued it ONCE yesterday, and you never gave a good reason why he COULDNT be scum.

No, I didn't "argue it once", that's just false; I spend 3 posts yesterday explaining why I thought Coron was more likely pro-town, why I thought the attacks on him didn't make any sense or were flawed, and why I generally thought he was a bad lynch.

I don't get any of this. Coron's claim dosn't make any sense, but I thought he looked pretty pro-town before the claim, and I think he's still pretty likely to be town now. The random claim seems...well, random, but it's not exactally something that would benifit scum in this situation. The idea that he randomally claimed tracker to try to DERAIL a Near wagon makes absolutly NO sense at all to me; how would him claiming a power role make it less likely that near gets lynched here?

Still pretty happy with my vote on DarlaBlueEyes. Her random "I am now certain Coron is scum" comment makes little sense, just seems to be going with the flow of what other people had said recently, and generally just feels scummy. The fact that she seems happy with either a Near lynch or a Coron lynch makes me unhappy about supporting either.

Why shouldn't I be happy with either? Both have exhibited Suspicious behavior, and Coron's timing is enough to cause dissent and split the vote, and IMO his intent was to get me lynched to save both his and his scumbuddy's neck.

That still dosn't make any sense. Why would coron claiming tracker get people to unvote Near? Or do you really think that Coron claimed tracker just to get people to vote for HIM so they'd unvote Near? That would not only be terrible scum stratagy, it dosn't even make any sense; there's no reason to think people should be MORE likely to vote someone just because they claimed a protown power role. (And, btw, there IS no reason why people SHOULD be more likely to vote someone just because they claimed a pro-town power role; "he claimed tracker so he's scum" dosn't at all follow).

He suddenly claims as a deadline looms? and Near is one vote shy of a Lynch?

Again, it's a BAD play for him to claim here, but I don't see what it has to do with the Near wagon. People like you and MikeBurnFire reacted in a wierd way to his claim, and you're saying that you're reacting like this to his claim because his claim was scummy and his claim was scummy becuase it'd make you react like this. Uhhh....

Mike: I do agree his claim was wierd, and was a mistake if he's pro-town. But I still don't see how that fits your theory; if anything, him claiming a power role would be most logically expected to get people to unvote him/decide not to lynch him today/whatever, and if people stopped voting him, they'd actually be more likely to vote near, wouldn't they?

I donno, I guess I kind of subscribe to the old Jeep theory that most people on some level really want to tell you what their role is.

And of COURSE I never gave any "reason to think he couldn't be scum"; at this point of the game, barring a cop innocent or something, ANYONE COULD be scum. But I thought he was more likely pro-town then not, I explained why, and I CERTANLY thought he'd be a terrible lynch.

Basically, this is my problem with your behavior yesterday, Mike. Usually, if someone claims an information role, most pro-town people are more reluctent to lynch him then they would have been otherwise; that only makes sense, after all. I occasioanlly see a pro-town person who was so convinced that X was scum that even after X claims a role like that, he's still willing to lynch X despite that. But I have trouble seeing how a pro-town person who dosn't suspect person X beforehand suddenly want to lynch person X after he claims; that just dosn't make sense to me.

My arguments against him did eventually lead to his death, but I am not the only one who thought his actions were suspicious, as evidence by the fact that he was eventually lynched. Even you admitted yesterday that his claim was weird and a mistake as town. It's funny how strongly you're defending him only after he's dead.

Uh, I defended him pretty strongly before he was dead, thank you very much.

[Yosarian2]

agreed, Yos is keeping his cards very close, and I don't think you are to blame for Coron. If anyone were to legitimately be called out I would see a better case against me or guardian.

Well, perhaps. Now that you've actually claimed, I'm not especally interested in lynching you today, though, especally since your claim makes sense; I could very easily see a watcher and a tracker in the same game. Also, while I hate Guardian's actions during the Coron lynch, I thought he looked pro-town earlier in the day before that.

[Yosarian2]

You protested more than I noticed, Yosarian. I will give you that. But I will not apologize for not understanding Coron's actions. He claimed to be a ambiguous power role for faulty reasons near the deadline, and requested doctor protection. These are actions of a scum.

Um, or else they're the actions of a pro-town power role who thinks he needs doc protection? It bothers me that you apparently never even considered the possibily he might have been telling the truth.

And I don't see what was "ambiguous" about his claim; his claim was compeltly clear, it was DBE who made an ambiguas claim yesterday.

Did you really think that a scum would claim to be tracker, and be put in the really risky and difficult position of having to fake a tracker claim every single night and of facing the risk of a counterclaim, just in order to have a chance of drawing doc protection on day 1? Have you EVER seen a scum do that? And drawing doc protection away from who, exactally? No one else had even claimed when Coron claimed.

Also, something else that really bothers me about your play.

My vote was on Coron as a protest vote because I didn't want to lynch either of the main candidates. Even though I didn't trust Coron and heavily advocated his lynch, the way in which it was achieved was utter stupidity. He went from zero votes to majority votes in under 12 hours. Had I been awake around this time of deadline I would have unvoted him based on this evidence alone.

So, let me get this streight. You didn't like either of the two biggest bandwagons, on the night of the deadline, and so you placed a "protest" vote somewhere else and went to bed.

What did you think that would accomplish? If you didn't want to get Coron lynched, then what were you trying to do? Were you hoping for a no-lynch? Or were you just assuming that Near would be lynched and didn't want to be on the wagon when it happened?

Besides which, you spent, by my count, 12 seperate posts attacking Coron after his claim. That's more then a third of all the posts you've made all game. And now you expect us to believe you would have unvoted him before deadline to prevent his lynch if you'd only been around?

[Yosarian2]

Yes, I was hoping for a no-lynch.

*blinks*

Well, I honestly didn't expect you to actually admit to that...

You really would rather no-lynch on day 1, rather then either lynch a claimed vanillia or rather then at least try to lynch someone else? Why do you think that's a pro-town stratagy?

[Yosarian2]

uh...what the hell?

Guardian, I'm not really sure why you claimed here...it really dosn't seem like a good idea to claim as cop with one innocent just in order to attack DBE here.

I can understand that 3 info roles in a game seem pretty unlikely...but watcher+tracker+cop isn't totally impossible, although that would imply no other power roles (which is an even BIGGER reason you shouldn't have claimed, gahhh).

...

That being said, IF (and this is a pretty big if), but if one of guardian and DBE is lying here, I guess my gut would be to believe Guardian. It's possible he decided to totally lie as a gambit to get her lynched, but eh, a watcher isn't THAT powerful a role, I'm not sure why a scum would sacrifice himself to lynch watcher.

[Yosarian2]

On the contrary, I think that I was justified and aided the town in lynching Coron over Near.

Btw, I still don't agree with this; especally as it seems to imply that Coron or Near were your only two choices; DBE seemed like a much better choice to me yesterday then either, or considering how fast you put together that coron wagon you probably could have quickwagoned someone else instead, if you had really wanted to. But I guess this whole thing has been outpaced by events, heh...

[Yosarian2]

I didn't claim 'just to attack dbe'

I claimed because I boxed myself into a corner saying her role didn't make sense, and I am at ly-2 anyways because of DBE's vote 'to pressure me some'.

Ok, fair enough; I actually hadn't noticed you were at lynch -2 when you claimed.

Interesting developments.

Interestingly non-comittal response.

[Yosarian2]

Don't most games with a Tracker have a Watcher too? It seems like a natural pairing.

Eh, I don't really think so. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me, but I certanly wouldn't say most games with a tracker have a watcher.

[Yosarian2]

DBE, could you explain why you're voting GUardian? I mean, you were the one who was saying earlier that you though there might also be a cop...

[Yosarian2]

I would suggest that nobody else claim *anything* at all now unless they're at L-1. At the rate we're going, scum could soon be aware of everyone's role while town is still in the dark.

I was pondering this as I fell asleep last night.

With 1 power roll dead, and 2 claimed, I think we should mass claim.

If no other power roles claim, we can assume DBE and me are telling the truth.

If someone claims, then we know DBE or me are lying.

I'm not really sure why you're making those assumptions, Guardian. For example, even if no other power roles claim, that dosn't prove DGE is telling the truth; a cop and a tracker could arguably pleanty of power for the town already.

[Yosarian2]

It bothers me that you apparently never even considered the possibily he might have been telling the truth.

I did consider it, but I didn't consider it seriously, as I didn't expect an experienced player to do such a strange and incautious play.

But it's an even more strange and incautious play for him to do as scum, MBF. You keep saying "he's an experenced player", and he is, but dosn't that show he wouldn't so something as stupid as claim tracker as scum for no good reason on day 1?

Also, you keep ignoring relevent questions here. You claim that you thought that he was just claiming tracker to try to draw doc protection. Have you ever seen a scum do that? Do you understand how hard it would be for a scum to claim tracker results every single day for the rest of the game without knowing who the pro-town power roles are? Remember no one had yet claimed when Coron did. And draw doc protection away from who, exactally?

You really would rather no-lynch on day 1, rather then either lynch a claimed vanillia or rather then at least try to lynch someone else? Why do you think that's a pro-town stratagy?

Because the graveyards are full of indispensable townies.

Worst answer ever.

A no lynch on day 1 is one of the worst things that can happen to the town. It's not as bad as lynching a power role on day 1, but it's worse then pretty much any other outcome. And I'm SURE you know this; to use your own argument, I can't imagine an experenced player like you making such a bad play as pro-town as to delibratly and stealtily try to cause a no-lynch on day 1.

I mean, if you think player x is scummy looking, then wouldn't you rather speedlynch player x instead of no-lynch? That's just common sense, right?

I was expressing my distrust of Coron and letting everybody know that I would have gone after him intently the next day.

Uh, you could have done that the next day, and used your vote right before the deadline to actually, you know, help the town.

So, I don't trust either of them. Instead, I'm going to vote Yosarian, who is the person I suspect the most who has not claimed an investigative role.

You've certanly given no actual reasons to suspect me...you pretty much ignored me day 1, and day 2 you've done nothing in relation to me but try to defend yourself from my attacks against you.

[Yosarian2]

I'm tempted to just leave DBE and Guardian alone entirely and lynch mbf today

FOS: mbf

Mass claim = bad?

Eh....mass claim is probably irrelevent at this point. If no power roles claim, that dosn't tell us anything. If one other power role claims, that might (or might not) tell us one of you and DBE is lying, but we still wouldn't know which one, and in the process it would out the other power role, which dosn't seem worth it to me. Either way, I don't really see how it helps us. Not that it hurts us much either.

[Yosarian2]

As scum, he would have had reasons. Town or not, his actions have led to other claimed investigative roles.

Uh, no. It really didn't. DBE semi-half-claimed yesterday because she was being bandwagoned, but that didn't really have anything to do with Coron's claim. There's no logical reason a scum claiming tracker would cause a pro-town person to claim, unless it was a pro-town tracker. "Hey, you're a tracker? Well, I'm the doc, nice to meet you!" That dosn't make any sense, mike.

I think I was pretty transparent in my actions, as I admitted my vote was useless when I made it.

Uh...you never said, yesterday, that you were voting Coron because you wanted to cause a no-lynch. So if that was really your hope, like you're now claiming, then you were not at all transparent.

You've certainly given no actual reasons to suspect me.

.. said the person who suspects me for not believing a fishy claim and wanting to avoid a townie lynch Day 1.

THERE WAS NOTHING FISHY ABOUT HIS CLAIM.

YOU PUSHED TO LYNCH A PRO-TOWN PLAYER, A PLAYER WHO HAD BEEN PRETTY HELPFUL AND PRETTY PRO-TOWN LOOKING ALL GAME, *BECAUSE* HE CLAIMED A PRO-POWER ROLE IN A SITUATION WHERE THERE IS NO REASON A SCUM WOULD WANT TO LIE.

You basically did more to help the scum by your actions yesterday then you could have by doing anything else you possibly could have done, and you did it in a situation where I can't imagine any pro-town person actually thinking that what you were doing was the right thing to do. You keep trying to explain your actions in different ways, and your explinaitons keep making less and less sense, and seem to have less and less to do with how you actually acted yesterday.

Now, are you going to explain why you're voting me, or should we just assume you're a scum trying a desperate OMGUS attack-defense because you know you can't actually defend your actions?

[Yosarian2]

Don't be so narrow minded, my dear Yosarian. Yes, scum can use a tracker claim to out a real tracker, but they can also use it to find a cop or force a doc's hand. If a player suddenly starts to suspect somebody who claimed tracker, then they could easily determine that that person is a cop. We can already see something similar happening here with Guardian and DBE.

Why would a cop react like that? There's no reason a tracker and a cop can't be in the same game. And there's certanly no reason for a doc to react to a info role claim.

There are a lot of ways to fish for a cop. I can't see claiming tracker as being one of them.

And I notice that AGAIN your claimed reason for why you suspected Coron yesterday changes...

Well, I didn't think a no-lynch was going to happen, but it is what I wanted.

Why? Why would you rather lynch no one instead of lynching, say, DBE, who you now think is scum? Or, you know, lynching someone else? Anyone else?

You do agree that day 1 no lynches are bad for the town, right?

THERE WAS NOTHING FISHY ABOUT HIS CLAIM.

I disagree, as did Guardian, Mac, and DBE.

The reasons you GAVE for calling Coron scum ware pure and completly crap logic. Which is part of the reason that, well, everyone is suspicious of you.

because I think you are scum, possibly with one of the claimed investigators (DBE).

Uh, DBE, you mean the person I was trying to lynch yesterday while you were lynching the tracker?

And "because I think you are scum" isn't any kind of reason, especally when it seems clear that you're only attacking me in respose to my attack on you.

[Yosarian2]

b]I present this line to you from Guardian: [/b]

Tracker + Cop to me didn't make a whole lot of sense, and Coron's bullshit play made me decide to try and get him lynched.

(shrug) He didn't do anything yesterday to tip his hand though. There's no reason any power role would, or should.

Uh, yeah. There is. He would use his protection ability on him.

Well, yeah, but that dosn't give him away during the day.

Near and DBE were the people on the block. At the time I didn't think Near was scum and DBE claimed to be an investigative role. I didn't want to lynch either of them. But it was too close in the deadline to try to speedlynch somebody else.

False. DBE had not yet claimed an investigative role, she just vaugly hinted that she had some kind of power role.

And it was clearly not too close to the deadline to try to speedlynch someone else.

And I'm going to preemptively answer the question that you will undoubtedly ask: "Why didn't you suspect DBE's ambiguous claim as much as Coron's clear one?". It was not Coron's claim I was suspicious of, but the way he made it. DBE made her claim to prevent herself from being lynched at deadline. Coron allegedly made his to get two people to stop suspecting him even though he was in no danger of being lynched.

So, you'd rather lynch someone who look suspicious and then sort-of claims, rather then someone who dosn't look suspicious and then claims? That dosn't make sense

You do agree that day 1 no lynches are bad for the town, right?

I will agree to this point if YOU agree that I shouldn't lynch somebody that I think is town.[/quote]

I think that lynching a claimed townie is better then a no lynch, unless you have really strong proof that the claimed townie is pro-town. At the time of your vote, we did not, although we kind of do now based on how near reacted to the coron speedwagon.

You are ignoring the fact that enough people believed this logic to lynch Coron, crap or not.

So? Sometimes crap logic tricks the town into mislynching. That's why it's a useful scum tactic. Dosn't make it any less scummy.

Uh, DBE, you mean the person I was trying to lynch yesterday while you were lynching the tracker?

Yep. Either him or Guardian. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the two was lying scum and you were connected to 'em.

...and I note you're still refusing to give any actual reasons to either suspect me of anything or link me to anyone.

[Yosarian2]

wow lotsa activity here.

Must say being inexperienced I am pretty unsure of anything right now. I still find guardian very fishy, but I don't want to risk lynching our cop, esp since we already lost our tracker.

I think both Yos and MBF present good arguments and from what I see its pretty WIFOM.

It could be either, It could be both, it could be neither....I just don't know.

I am not ready to vote because I honestly just cant say one person is scum over another or one person is town over the other....

so confused D:

Uh...MBF hasn't made any arguments against me at all, DBE. It's pretty clear that he's just attacking me becase I attacked him. So how have we both presented good arguments? What arguement has he made that actually makes sense as an attack against me?

[Yosarian2]

So, you'd rather lynch someone who look suspicious and then sort-of claims, rather then someone who dosn't look suspicious and then claims? That dosn't make sense.

I'm assuming this sentence was meant to be the other way around, yes?

No, that's what I meant to say. DBE looked suspicious, and then sort of half-claimed in self defense. Coron didn't look suspicious at all, in my opinion at least, and then he claimed. You're claiming that he's MORE scummy BECAUSE people weren't voting for him, which seems silly.

[Yosarian2]

I haven't made a case for lynching Yos yet, I've been busy defending myself from his flawed arguments. I'll probably get around to rereading and pulling things I found suspicious later.

There's nothing flawed about my arguments. Here, let me lay them out again:

1. You acted in a way that hurt the town and helped the scum.

2. You started a wagon on a pro-town power role only AFTER he claimed to be a pro-town power role, which makes me think there's a good chance that you attacked him because you wanted a pro-town power rle dead.

3. You consistantly gave craplogic reasons for doing so; you're changing your reasons now, but the only real reason you gave yesterday was the odd theory that Coron claimed tracker "in order to protect Near", which is one of the most illogical theories I've ever heard

4. You have admitted to trying to cause a no-lynch on day 1, which is an anti-town move in and of itself. And there's really no way I can see your vote on Coron at the end of the day yesterday as really having pro-town motives; like I said, my guess is that after you pushed the Near wagon for so long yesterday, you wanted to back off of it and let it cruise on to a lynch while you weren't on it so you would look better the next day, which is another common scum tactic.

5. After the bandwagon you started led to a lynch of the tracker, you instantly tried to shift the blame for the wagon to Guardian; another common scumtell.

6. OMGUS attack against me, which appears linked to your inability to actually defend yourself against the points I made.

7. Scummy defense in general today; you keep shifting your justifaction about why you did what you did, and none of the reasons you give really make sense.

8. You keep making other scummy random comments, like randomally accusing me and DGE of being scum toghether; when, in fact, you are the one who's much more linked to her, since you're the one who could have pushed a wagon on her over the edge yesterday but voted for Coron instead, even though you now claim that you didn't expect that vote to go anywhere.

I could go on, but that's the main thrust of it. None of those arguments are "flawed".

[Yosarian2]

1. Are referring to refusal to lynch the two candidates I didn't feel were scummy?

I'm referring to the fact that your actions led directly to the death of a tracker

2. I didn't buy his bullshit claim.

Uh...his claim obveously wasn't "bullshit", and there was no good reason for you to think it was "bullshit" at the time.

3. What reasons have I "changed"? The theory you mention was only one of the possibilities I considered.

Every time I show that your reasons are crap, you invent another excuse for your vote, generally one that you never mentioned yesterday.

4. This is the second time you've ignored my question.

Should I, or should I not, lynch somebody that I think is town if the only alternative is no lynch?

Uh, I did answer that question, twice. If someone claims vanillia townie, on day 1, and you don't have solid proof that they're town, then yes, lynching them is much better then a no lynch. Even better would be lynching someone else, even if it's a "speed lynch". I mean, if a deadline is coming up, then the town should try to put together a wagon quickly, that's just good pro-town play; especally since Coron had already claimed, I don't see what you're trying to get at here, or why you say you would have rather no-lynched day 1 and then attacked Coron day 2 instead of lynching Coron day 1. Don't you understand that no-lynching day 1 and then lynching person X day 2 is just worse for the town then lynching person X day 1?

5. No, YOU instantly blamed me and Guardian for Coron's death, and I defended myself.

Uh, well, yeah, Coron's death was largly the fault of you and guardian, so yeah, I blamed the two of you. But that's not the issue here. The issue here was that the way you turned on Guardian, instantly, makes me feel like you were trying to shift blame away from yourself.

6. Your arguments are shit and are reason enough for me to leave my vote on you.

Um, you just saying that dosn't make it true, you know.

YOU HURT THE TOWN.

YOU HELPED THE SCUM.

THEREFORE, YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE SCUM THEN TOWN.

That's really what nearly every single single good argument in mafia boils down to, and in this case it's 100% true.

8. I'm expressing my suspicions as I have them.

Um, try again. Because from the point of view of everyone else, it looks like you're attacking me because I'm attacking you, and that you're unable to explain why.

The fact alone that yos was pushing for a lynch on me yesterday should be proof enough we are not aligned.

Because Yos would never be the kind of person to distance, right?

[/quote]

That piece of crap logic, right there, is more then enough.

confirm vote:mikeburnfire

Let's lynch him and move on.

[Yosarian2]

1. My actions did contribute to the death of the tracker. So? Just because I'm wrong about somebody doesn't make me scum.

Not in and of itself, but going after someone based on crap logic, AFTER they've claimed a pro-town role, is something scum is more likely to do then town.

I don't understand how you can sit there and keep calling my reasons for attacking you "crap" or saying that I'm "unjustified" in attacking you. Even if you don't think your reasons for attacking Coron were bad, you must admit that both the timing of your attacks and the results of your actions yesterday look quite scummy, and that any pro-town player sitting where I'm sitting would suspect you. The fact that you continue to refuse to admit or apparently even understand that any inpartial observer would find your actions yesterday scummy, and that you're actually going as far as to vote for me based solely on my logical attack on you, really makes me think you're trying to OMGUS vote simply as a last-ditch scum defense.

2. Yes, there was reason for me to believe the claim was bullshit. An investigative role outting himself day 1 so close to the deadline with no real justification is suspicious.

The claim wasn't especally convincing on it's own, but claiming a power role is at worst a neutral tell; it might or might not convince you, but it's never really a scumtell, just because pro-town players can and will claim quite often when they shouldn't. Like I said yesterday before the Coron lynch, like Jeep said in his tells a long time ago, most people on some level really do want to claim, and there tends to be a lot of pro-town people who make mistakes in the direction of "claiming too often". Add to that the unnecessary risk involved in scum fake-claiming any pro-town power role, especally an investigative role that would have to fake results every single day for the entire game, and there's no reason to think the claim was more likely to be made by scum then by town.

Now, if you had given some OTHER logical reason for suspecting Coron AND explained why you didn't really believe his claim, I would have much less of a problem with your actions.

4. I disagree. You're arguing that I should have lynched Near because it was better than no lynch, but you have given me no reason why she is scum.

Uh....you were attacking her for much of the day yesterday, remember? You finally said "I think she's town", but you never explained why.

And I didn't think Near was scum at the time, by the way. But that didn't mean I thought we should try for a no-lynch, that's just anti-town. At least try to lynch someone, even if you fail that generates more info then a random "protest vote" or whatever.

I was trying to lynch Coron on Day 1 but nobody would join me. I was TRYING to get X lynched Day 1. What I did not want was a speedlynch on X. There is a difference.

No, there's not. If you think X is probably scum, and especally if X has already claimed, then I can't think of any reason why a speedlynch on X day 1 is WORSE then a no-lynch day 1 followed by a continued attack on X day to. In fact, the "no lynch and keep attacking him tommorow" thing would pretty clearly be better for the scum, since it just gives them a free kill with no town information and no consequences for them.

6. But they are shit, as I have been able to respond to each of your points

Your responses fail, on pretty much every level, to either explain your actions in a plausable pro-town way or to show any logical flaw in my case. Which, by the way, is why most of the town is agreeing with me here. I don't know if you don't see that or if you're intentioanlly trying to pretend it's not true, but it really is.

, and the only thing you can do is repeat the same points again anyway.

Well, if I make a valid point and vote for you, and your response is some random BS that dosn't at all answer my point, and then to call my reasons "shit" and vote for me because I'm "attacking you unjustly", then of course I'll repeat the origioanl, valid argument. If you would just understand that what you did was anti-town, understand why we all think you look scummy here, and try to explain yourself in a more ratioanl way, you'd probably be getting a lot more traction here.

7. I would like you to explain your previous statement "you keep shifting your justifaction about why you did what you did, and none of the reasons you give really make sense". I would like to know what you are referring to in this instance. If you cannot give me examples, then I would like you to stop accusing me of this.

Yesterday, the only real reason you gave was the illogical "Coron claimed in order to prevent Near from being lynched". Today, you first changed that to "Coron might claimed to draw doc protection", then when that didn't fly, you changed it to "Coron might have claimed in order to fish for the cop". That last point, the one you're trying to imply now, is something you never said yesterday, you didn't say earlier today, and frankly I tend to think that it only occured to you after Guardian claimed cop today, so I don't really think that's the real reason for your attacks yesterday.

8. Okay, I'll give a reason. I think you're attacking me unjustly. Yes, I heard Coron's claim of Tracker and thought it didn't make sense. I didn't know what his intentions could have been as scum, but his reasons he gave for doing it as town didn't make any sense. So I voted him. I voted him and VEHEMENTLY pushed for his lynch. But it didn't take.[

Then deadline came. I could have voted for Near or DBE, who were close to lynch. But I got really good vibes from Near, and I wanted to give DBE some room after her claim. I put my vote on Coron, as I intended to keep pushing his lynch the next day. I did not intend to have him speedlynched. Now you are framing this as if it was all my fault and that it is 100% proof that I am scum.

I'm not "framing you" for anything. Your attacks on Coron yesterday were scummy. Your vote for him, right before going to bed, was scummy. I don't think you were fully responsible for the Coron lynch, no scum can ever be fully responsible for any one lynch without some townies going along for the ride, but it does seem like something you were trying to engineer from pretty much the moment of his claim.

Now, I want an answer to this:

That piece of crap logic, right there, is more then enough.

DBE said that you two could not be aligned because you pushed for her lynch. I explained that this is not any proof because mafia partners can distance themselves. You call craplogic. What about this is craplogic? Are you saying that you are incapable of distancing yourself?

The craplogic is that you never gave any actual reason to think there was a link between me and DBE. In fact, there is very strong evidence that we are not linked, since my actions yesterday very nearly resulted in her death (and very likely would have, if the dumb Coron lynch hadn't happened after I went to bed.) Of course that dosn't PROVE that I wasn't "distancing", but when there's strong evidence against something and no evidence for it, and you try to completly dismiss the evidence against it with a weak OMGUS argument without providing any evidence of your own, yeah, I think it's scummy craplogic, designed to destract and worry the town. I also actually wonder if you're trying to link me to DBE because you're scum with her and want to distance yourself from her in a way that's safe to her and link me to her at the same time, but that line of thought can wait until we find out your alignment.

. If Near turns out to be town in endgame, I expect an apology from both of you.

Uh, I've been saying for a while that I think Near is probably town. That's not really relevent to the issue at hand, and is franky kind of a read herring here.

[Yosarian2]

I am voting Yos because I feel he is scum. If you think it's OMGUS, then fine. It's OMGUS. But how does that make me scum?

True OMGUS voting is a scum tell, because town are trying to find scum with their votes; whereas scum are much more interested in protecting themselves, and so are likely to try to use their votes as a weapon to punish/discourage people who attack them. OMGUS is basically attacking someone simply because you don't like that they're attacking you; it's just not helpful for a town to do that, but it's a very natural move for a scum to make.

Granted it's not the strongest scum tell, in itself, since town will sometimes react emotionally to being attacking, but it is a valid scumtell nonetheless.

OK, I guess you mentioned the doc thing yesterday too, but you've still had some shifting of reasons.

You and Yosarian are very alike. You both like to attack me for "shifting reasons" but come up with no evidence of the sort.

You are right that you mentioned the doc thing yesterday, that was my mistake. But the more significant "shifting reason" is how you are now suddenly claiming that you had thought Coron claimed tracker just to try and out a cop; it dosn't really make any sense as a scum tactic, since it's certanly possible for there to be both a cop and a tracker, but more importantly, you never mentioned that yesterday and I strongly suspect that you only thought of it after Guardian claimed.

Two reasons. First, I was still trying to make sense of Coron's actions, and him attempting to disrupt the Near lynch was the best I could think of at the time. Second, for awhile I bought into that whole "lynching a claimed townie is better than no lynch". But then I realized that such line of thinking is stupid.

Failing to lynch on day 1 is really bad for the town. Most likely the scum just get a free kill, probably someone who wasn't under suspicion at all, and the town, after spending weeks trying to lynch and failing, finds themselves back in the exact same position with the exact same suspects, and no more information then they had the day before. It's just not a good situation.

Again, I'm not necessarally saying you should have lynched Near, if you really thought Near was pro-town. If you really thought Near was pro-town, you should have tried to lynch someone else, even if it was a so-called "speed lynch". Your claim here:

Then you are a fool. We get almost no information from a speedlynch and a continued attack the following day can lead to even more information, plus people can change their suspicions.

Is just silly. How could the town get LESS information from a speed-lynch then a no-lynch? You get information on the people who vote, you get information on the person who gets lynched, and most importantly you get another chance to hopefully kill a scum. A speedlynch that leads to a dead scum gives the town a huge amount of information.

And how would "a continued attack the next day lead to more information"? Bad as the Coron lynch was, illogical as it was, I think it gave us a lot of information; information about you, information about who voted on it and who didn't, I think that Near's reluctance to join it gave us really key information about him, and of course information about Coron's alignment. You'd spent how long attacking Coron before deadline? If there'd been a no-lynch, some random pro-town player would have died that night, and the next day you would have still been attacking Coron, I still would have been arguing against you, other people still would have been attacking Near, ect. A no-lynch means that you're basically in the same boat you were in before, except with one less townie; it's demoralising and destructive.

In fact, I do believe you that you didn't really expect the Coron lynch to happen when you went to bed. I think that was your plan, in fact; you were hoping for either a no-lynch or a lynch of Near that you had gone on record as opposing right before it happened, and hoping that you could keep just attacking Coron the next day, because that situation would help you greatly as scum.

Also, minor point, but psycologically it's quite interesting the way you're calling me a "fool" here. In fact, that's not the first time you've been insulting me ever since I've started attacking you today. Makes me think I've really got you rattled here...

[Yosarian2]

How could the town get LESS information from a speed-lynch then a no-lynch?

On lynches that get built up I can see why people vote, how hesitant they are to vote, how eager they are to vote, and how they might try to subtly sabotage the lynch. On deadline speedlynches where people just go "ShitDeadlineHurryLynchLynchLynch" all of this information is gone.

Well, in some sense that's true, but then again in a speed lynch, where a person absoltuly has to make a decision that he knows almost certanly will determine who lives and who dies within a few hours, and where he dosn't have a lot of time to slowly work up to a lynch with a lot of BS reasons, I tend to think that the information gained can be even more valuable. Near's "I don't want to lynch a claimed tracker" comment would not have been nearly as informative if wasn't for the fact that we were only a few hours from a deadline.

Basically, IMHO, the point where it's easiest to distinguish between a pro-town action and a pro-scum action isn't when people talk for weeks; the most informative stuff comes when people have to instantly make a decision that will actually have a significant effect on the course of the game; scum can BS all they want when nothing's really happening, but it's much harder for them to convincingly act pro-town when they have to publically make a decision that will directly affect the scum's chances of winning.

I'll give you that, but a speedlynch that leads to a dead townie gives nothing useful.

Still disagree with you on that just as a matter of game theory; it both removes a suspicious looking townie who otherwise would be likely to get lynched later, and it gives a good amount of information.

Bad as the Coron lynch was, illogical as it was, I think it gave us a lot of information; information about you, information about who voted on it and who didn't, I think that Near's reluctance to join it gave us really key information about him, and of course information about Coron's alignment.

We could have gotten most, if not all of this information, without killing Coron.

I don't think that's true. We really wouldn't have gotten most of that information. If we didn't know Coron's alignment now, the lynch wouldn't be nearly as informative, in my opinion. The fact that Coron was, in fact, a pro-town power role is now a solid fact, and by combining that fact with the behavior of the people who supported and opposed the bandwagon, we get information; without that fact, with a failed lynch, you get a lot less infromation from the bandwagon.

And then we'd have his tracker result too.

Well, yeah. That's why you don't lynch a claimed power role on day 1 without really good reasons.

[Yosarian2]

Honestly this makes me question your cop claim, Guardian. There's a very obvious answer to this situation for a cop. You've even stated it yourself earlier in the game.

fos:mac

Trying to direct the cop is bad.

[Yosarian2]

Sounded to me like mac might have been trying to figure out who you were going to investigate tonight with that comment, Guardian, and/or try to tell you who to investigate.

[Yosarian2]

Welcome to the game, Albert.

You case against Dasquin is interesting, especally the point about his turn-around on Near there towards the end; I'd like to hear him explain that himself. I'm not sure your claim that he's linked to DBE makes a whole lot of sense here, though; at the time he changed his vote to DBE, it felt to me like either Near or DBE was probably going to be lynched. That's be a pretty bold time for a distancing manuever.

I'm also not clear about why you think DBE's claim is so improbable; I haven't often seen a tracker and a watcher in the same game, but I can't see a balance reason why there shouldn't be. In fact, I'd say (cop+watcher+tracker) is probably better balanced then (cop+doc); either a watcher or a tracker has only about a 1/11 chance of finding a scum on night 1, and neither one can ever really make someone a confirmed innocent, so I don't see any balance reasons for it.

Anyway, about the case on MBF; there's a lot of things that bug me about him. I don't like the case he made against Coron right after Coron claimed, and I don't like the OMGUS vote. But the strongest point of my case against him is right here. After supporting the near wagon for a while while also co-concordantly attacking Coron, he suddenly does this, right before the deadline (right before he went to bed, he claims)

I can support disbanding the Near wagon, but I do not want to speed lynch Dasquian.

FOS: Guardian.

You know better than to speedlynch in such a manner.

unvote, vote Coron

. Gonna stop supporting the wagon I don't like and start one I do.

And yes, I am aware of the hypocracy of criticizing Guardian for starting a wagon while starting my own. I don't think either of these wagons are going to go anywhere though.

I have to go to bed now. I am tired and am unable to make coherent posts. Guardian, I disagree with you on everything so far this game. Coron is scummy, I don't want to lynch Near, I don't think Dasq is suspicious, and I don't want to lynch DBE now that she's claimed a power role, but there's only 8 hours until the deadline. I am not going to pick between the two/three. I am just going to vote Coron. Like voting third-party in an American election, my vote will do nothing, but it is what I support.

Basically, that looks just like the kind of manuever I'd be tempted to try if I was scum. MBF pushes the Near lynch all the way to the point where it (appeared) almost certanly inevitable with or without his vote, then he unvotes Near at the last minute, without really giving any good reason for it, and moves his vote over to someone who, by his own standard, he dosn't expect to actually get lynched.

It looks to me like he expected one of two things to happen:
1. Near gets lynched without his help, he gets to keep attacking Coron the next day all day and perhaps get him lynched then, avoids being on a bad wagon at the moment of lynch
2. No-lynch happens, town gets no informaton, he gets to keep attacking Coron the next day.

Either one would be bad for the town, and good for Mike as scum; scum generally don't like to directly lynch TOO many townies themselves, they'd rather try to set it up so a townie gets lynched (or, better yet, a no-lynch happens) and they don't get the blame. And note that Mike basically admitted to motive #2 here, which is really interesting. However, neither way fits with the way a pro-town person should act; if he didn't like the Near wagon, he should have tried to find the town a better wagon, and he should have done it a heck of a lot earlier. Instead, looking back at his posts before that point, you can see that he seems in no rush, that seems to like the way the town was drifting towards a deadline lynch of Near.

Basically, even with his explinations, his actions yesterday just seem more scummy then townie to me; he kind of explained away the OMGUS vote in a way that's plausable, and even the bad case he made against Coron isn't totally unimaginable from a pro-town person (although I hate hate hate hate it), but his actions at the end of the day yesterday just look more like the actions of a scum then the actions of a pro-town person.

[Yosarian2]

I think the axis of evil is in the area of duck, mac, yos, dbe.

Uhhhh....based on what, exactally?

[Yosarian2]

On this directing the cop business: while it wasn't my goal, I can see how what I said could be interpreted as directing the cop, and why this is bad. However, I'm curious why my questioning why someone with cop powers would want to lynch someone they can't read gets an FoS and vote and such, while DBE blatantly asking the cop to investigate her sometime early gets basically ignored? Feels like a pretty steep double standard there to me.

Basically, I don't think someone saying "cop, pls investigate me" is a scumtell; it's not helpful, but it's something pro-town newbies often say and think, and it's not something that benifits scum any. (One could make a case that it's a godfather tell, I guess, but even there it's pretty weak).

However, what you did looks to me like you were trying to find out who Guardian was going to investigate tonight. And that's bothersome, because the scum really want to know that right now; if both Guardian and DBE are telling the truth, then the scum COULD probably kill Guardian tonight, but there'd be a huge risk of getting caught doing so by the watcher. So what the scum would want to do is to try and figure out if Guardian is going to investigate one of them tonight, so they can know if they should kill him or not. And it kind of seemed like that's what you were doing.

[Yosarian2]

Not a single one of you is voting scum.

Uh...so you're now just assumign that all 4 people that the rest of us are voting for are pro-town? Based on...what, exactally?

I still think MBF is the best choice for a lynch today. IF not him, then pyro, or perhaps mac seem like decent alternatives.

[Yosarian2]

Dasquian, DBE and Yosarian. There's your scumteam. Good day.

Heh. And of course, right away you start assuming I'm scum, without giving any reasons, just because I'm disagreeing with you. Nice.

Or is this just that mystical scumdar that you claimed was right "5 out of 5" times?

[Yosarian2]

Mike: I don't know who your scummates are. There's any number of possibilities, but I don;'t really go to deep into looking for connections until I actually find a scum. Why, are you trying to suggest that you can't be scum because there aren't any likely scummates for you?

And I haven't just "said over the course of the day MBF is scum". I've made a case, I've gone into exausting detail over and over again, I gave a large number of logical reasons why I think you're more likely to be scum then town. Most of those reasons are still valid now. So yeah, I'm certanly still willing to lynch you today, that's why I'm voting you. I am perfectly willing to look at other targets as well though, if a logical case can be made against them.

[Yosarian2]

Why, are you trying to suggest that you can't be scum because there aren't any likely scummates for you?

I'm not suggesting this. I was just curious because a number of us have given our top three candidates for scum, and you have not. But logically, if there AREN'T any likely scummates for me, then it's very likely that I am NOT scum, yes?

I was actually asking that quite seriously, because that can be a real defense, although not usually on day 1.

There are any number of people you could be scum with. Pyro, for example, is both suspicious looking, and because he hasn't commented on many people he could basically be scum with anyone, including with you. I also don't see any reason to think you couldn't be scum with, say, Mac; he did vote for you, following me, but that could be distancing, especally since he later unvoted you and didn't really give any reasons why he was unvoting you.

Note I'm not trying to suggest links here, I don't have enough evidence to really do that yet, but I could easily see you as part of a scumgroup, yeah.

And when I rebut these questions, you seem to ignore my response. Can I have an answer to the following?:

if he didn't like the Near wagon, he should have tried to find the town a better wagon, and he should have done it a heck of a lot earlier. Instead, looking back at his posts before that point, you can see that he seems in no rush, that seems to like the way the town was drifting towards a deadline lynch of Near.

This is... wow. Go back and see how I tried to push the town OFF a near lynch and ONTO a DBE wagon before Coron's crazy move.

Ok; I wasn't going to run this into the ground, but if you want me to respond, sure.

That's not an answer to my argument, because I was talking about what you did as the deadline was starting to come closer. As the deadline was approaching, you stayed on the near wagon until pretty much the last second and didn't really seem to have any problem with it, then bailed out for another wagon you yourself said you didn't think was going anywhere. The fact that you attacked DBE a bit earlier dosn't really have anything to do with that point at all.

[Yosarian2]

As the deadline was approaching, I should have tried to find an alternative wagon a heck of a lot earlier? What?

If you didn't like the Near wagon, then yes, you should have. Basically, staying on the near wagon all the way until deadline and then jumping off for a wagon you didn't think was going anywhere is not helpful.

[Yosarian2]

Also:

Yos has made countless against me.

So, if I don't respond to an argument you make, I'm "ignoring" you, but when I do respond over and over again to all the arguments you make, I'm writing too many posts against you? How does that work?

[Yosarian2]

If Singing Librarian, Pyro and Mac give their support to lynch the Dasquian scum, we will win. No doubt about it. A Dasquian lynch will provoke an unstoppable chain of events leading to three rapid successive scum lynches, and Yosarian is severely misguided if he thinks that he can end the day with another townie killed.

And Albert has, as usual, totally given up on logic again and is just going to keep repeating the same wrong things over and over again with absolutly no explination, apparently just assuming that people who don't agree with him are scum, just like he always does.

All I can say is, thank God he dosn't have a nuke this time.

[Yosarian2]

I like this "mafia persona" you put on. It makes our job

so

much easier when you're scum Yosarian.

So, were you going to actually make a case against me, or are you just continue to insist that you're smarter then everyone else and everyone should just follow you blindly?

[Yosarian2]

If you don't respond to an argument I make, you're ignoring me, but when you

repeat the same arguments over and over again and disregard rebuttals,

you're writing too many posts against me.

I've never disreguarded rebuttals you've made.

When I've repeated the same arguments, it's generally been because you just ilogically stated that my argumetns were "shit", or they were "flawed", or because you kept arguing what looks to me like a bad stratagy point (like that no lynch is better then a speedlynch on day 1, or whatever); when you do that, of course I'm going to go back and lay out my arguments a little bit more carefully, in more detail, and try to explain them again, since they weren't flawed, and they weren't "shit". If I have to say the same thing in 4 different ways in order to get everyone to understand what I'm trying to say, then I'll do that.

[Yosarian2]

AKA,

ad hominem

.

Heh. Well, if you don't want me to repeat my reasons, then you shouldn't have been acting like I didn't have any good ones...

Also, your main reason against me seems to have changde from "getting a power role lynched and frame Guardian" to "preferring no lynch to any lynch" to "staying on Near's wagon too long".

Well, those are all still valid reasons for thinking you are more likely scum then town, yes. And the second and third reason there are pretty tightly linked in any case.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, you still keep changing what your "biggest issue" with me is to whatever is the hot button issue. And the second reason is just a matter of opinion, and apparently everyone here has a bad opinion. ABR is new, so maybe he'll support me on this.

Well, there was one reason my biggest issue did change over the course of the day today. At the start of the day, the thing I hated most about your day 1 play was the bad case you made against Coron. Then, after you actually admitted to trying to cause a no-lynch, my focus more shifted to that; not because I stopped hating the case you made on Coron, but because the no-lynch thing seems like an even stronger scumtell to me.

[Yosarian2]

Albert: Well, whatever. I'd still like to hear exactally why you think me and DBE is linked or whatever, you're the second person to say it and it makes absolutly no sense to me. I still don't really see your case on Dasquian either; you could run that past me again?

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...I don't really buy that as a scumtell, Albert, mostly because I thought Coron was pretty obv town during day 1.

[Yosarian2]

I don't think he is scum But I'd vote Dasq to prove a point that I am not his scum buddy, you can call it distancing or not but a good scum buddy wouldn't put their partner at L-1 now would they?

Alright fine here:

vote:Dasquian

Heh...man, now that was scummy, DBE.

Hint: Any time you seem more concerned about how you look then about helping the town lynch scum, it makes you look really scummy.

I still don't see the logic behind a Dasquin lynch, but I could go along with a DBE lynch, especally if the Mike one's not going to happen.

unvote

vote:Darla Blue Eyes

[Yosarian2]

lol I find this very amusing.

In voting for Dasq I am attempting to disprove my alliance AND help the town because I am the watcher who it would benefit the town to not lynch.

That's the point, Darla. You voting for Dasq dosn't prove you're not in a scum faction with him at all; if anything, it looks like you're his scumbuddy, you figured he was going to get lynched no matter what, so you decided to vote for him so you didn't go down after he got lynched. Or else that you're scum and he's town, and you're trying to lynch him to prove that you're not scum with him. Either way, though, a townie should never vote for someone they don't think is scum just to try to look better in the eyes of the town, but a scum will often do that.

[Yosarian2]

Obviously you guys all stick to those little wiki rules 100%.

I don't think there's any "wiki rules" at all involved here, DBE. It's just that in general, pro-town people are mostly concerned with trying to find and lynch scum; scum are usually mostly concerned with not getting lynched themselves. If you vote for someone that you don't think is really scummy, just to make yourself look less scummy, when you weren't really in any danger, it's a scummy looking move.

I am new., yeah but i have my own style of play which has obv. gotten me into trouble, come what may, lynch me

Well, if you weren't new, you'd probably be better at hiding your scummy motivations. In any case, new or not, we have to use your posts to try and figure out your alignment.

... I dont care If the scum wins I will LOL @ all of you for being so dumb as to lynch the tracker & watcher.

Lol...oh, WE were so dumb as to lynch the tracker? Funny, that's not how I remember day 1...

[Yosarian2]

No, it's not. DBE's previous playstyle made people want to vote her, so she changed her playstyle from arrogant to remorseful. It doesn't make her any less suspicious.

Um...random thought, but isn't that kind of what you did when you were at lynch -1 a few pages ago? You changed your playstyle?

[Yosarian2]

If i me and him are both here tonight, i wouldn't be suprised if he fakes a guilty result on me to get me lynched, as i seem to be the biggest questioner of his claim.

Hahaha...that's probably the scummiest sentance I've seen in a long, long, time. Pyro, is there some reason you're worried about what happens if a cop investigates you?

fos:Pyro

I'm interested to see what Albert has to say about this Pyro wagon...

[Yosarian2]

Um...I'm voting DBE, Albert. Are you paying attention?

[Yosarian2]

Albert's post there was 98% craplogic, random hatred, and pointless demands that everyone else follow him or else, and should therefore be compeltly ignored.

Once you remove all that, though, he did have one valid point:

If we go ahead and mislynch Pyro, tomorrow we are at Ly-lo and have no way of verifying DBE's results when Guardian dies

If we lynch wrong today, and you die tonight, Guardian, then if there are 3 scum tommorow we'll be at lynch or lose with 8 people left. Say tommorow DBE says "Ok, I saw Albert kill Guardian, let's lynch him". Should the town believe her or not? If they believe her, and she's lying scum, the scum win.

[Yosarian2]

I am the watcher, do you really think if I were scum I'd be so stupid as to NK guardian if I promised to watch him then LIE to pin it on someone else?

Just a question...why would that be stupid if you were scum? If you were scum, then assuming the town mislynches today, you could kill guardian tonight, lie to pin it on someone else tommorow, and then if the town buys it you win the game on the spot. How is that "stupid"?

[Yosarian2]

I really doubt town would vote themselves though.

in fact I am ready to unvote you if you vote yourself. It doesn't absolve you of anything, but town are much less likely to vote themselves than scum

Uhhh....

Unvote

, and I'd also like to see more players take a closer look at Darla. I might vote her again but I promise not to hammer.

...

Uhhh....

...

...

Buh?

Albert, you make my head hurt sometimes, you know that?

[Yosarian2]

Second, MBF is confirmed town.

...uh, no he's not, not at all, Albert.

Is there some reason you're trying to plant the idea that MBF is confirmed town?

I'm satisfied with my vote on DBE today, but if that wagon's not going to happen, I don't know about everyone else, but I'm heading right back to the MBF wagon, unless someone can give me a good reason why not. Hint: you haven't.

Dasquian, Mac and Yosarian coaching DBE has been noted.

"coaching" DBE? I was questiong her claimed motives.

Dasquian, your words fall on deaf ears because you're just a damn noob-scum.

Lol...Dasquian is a noob???

[Yosarian2]

And someone still needs to make an actual case against Dasquin that's not related to hypothetical links to someone else who may or may not be scum. The whole argument against Dasquin today has been "DBE looks scummy, so let's lynch the duck". That's just dumb. If that's your argument, then what you do is first you lynch DBE, and then, if she does turn out to be scum, you then make the logical argument about how the two of them are connected.

Trying to make connections based on hypothesis and speculation piled upon more speculation is just bad play. If we lynch Dasquin and he's town, what information does that give us, exactally? At least lynching DBE gives us information about if this supposed link with Dasquin is worth following up or not; but lynching Dasquin dosn't really tell us anything about her alignment.

[Yosarian2]

If we lynch Dasquin and he's town, what information does that give us, exactally? At least lynching DBE gives us information about if this supposed link with Dasquin is worth following up or not; but lynching Dasquin dosn't really tell us anything about her alignment.

So.... Dasq and DBE look linked. If we lynch Dasquian and he's town, we have no information about DBE, but if we lynch DBE we WILL have information? That makes no sense unless you know that DBE is scum.

It's a one way link. The argument has been "DBE looks scummy, and Dasquin looks linked to her, so they're probably both scum". If we lynch DBE and she's town, then at least we would know that that "Dasquin is scum because he's linked to DBE" argument is bunk. If we lynch Dasquin and he's town, then that dosn't really give us any information. You see what I mean?

[Yosarian2]

:eyebrow:

You've already derailed two perfectly good wagons, Albert. First, you derailed the wagon against MBL-scum, then you derailed the wagon against DBE-scum with your bizzare "vote for yourself and I'll unvote you" logic. Why are you in such a rush to hammer now?

[Yosarian2]

then you derailed the wagon against DBE-scum with your bizzare "vote for yourself and I'll unvote you" logic.

That was a gambit to bring DBE closer to lynch.

Is that what you were doing? Because to the rest of us, it looked like you who had been pushing the wagon all day was suddenly changing your mind about it, and that killed the wagon dead.

I still think you're likely town, because of your predecssor's actions, and I'm trying to work with you/play off of you here to try and get reactions and find scum here, but when you do stuff like that, it makes it really hard to work with you. Plus this type of behavior is the reason that I tend to think that your whole "I have OOC information I can't tell you about but it's a 99.7% fact that Dasquin is scum but I can't tell you why" thing is also probably a gambit, which is why I basically just ignored it.

[Yosarian2]

Lol.

Albert, I'm not claiming you were trying to kill the wagon dead, I believe you that you really were trying to convince DBE to vote herself so you could kill her, heh. I'm just telling you what the EFFECT of your gambit was, which was to kill the DBE wagon. As soon as one of the founders of a wagon turns against it, the wagon usually fails.

[Yosarian2]

99.7% fact that Dasquin is scum but I can't tell you why" thing is also probably a gambit, which is why I basically just ignored it.

I believe Dasquian confirmed that this was in fact very real.

...huh. That wasn't how I read his post, but...

Dasquain: Do you have any reason to think Albert might be telling the truth here? Just answer yes or no, you don't need to say anything else if you can't.

[Yosarian2]

What mafiascum really needs these days is more sheep. We've always got 12 different leaders trying to go in different directions, and no one willing to blindly follow a halfway plausable wagon to it's logical conclusion.

Why are you so stubborn about being a leader ? Follow your own advice, friend.

Note I never said in that thread that *I* make a very good sheep.

Seriously, I've said what I think. The case against Dasq really is pretty weak, and I frankly don't trust your claim of "Secret out of game information you can't talk about" or whatever, you're just always so damn convinced you're right so willing to do whatever it takes to get the person you think is scum lynched it's hard to take you seriously when you say something like that.

At the moment, I'd go along with a lynch on DBE, mikeburnfire, or pyro. If you want me to vote for Dasq, I'm always willing listen to logic, but not to demands, threats, or meaningless statements.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not "rolling my thumb waiting for deadline". I'd just rather try and actualy lynch scum then lynch "whatever name Albert picked out of a hat and decided to try to get the town to lynch".

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, do you REALLY feel like we should lynch our claimed watcher? For all the shit you gave me about killing the tracker, you would think you'd want to test the watcher for one day before killing her, scummy as she is.

But...Coron was so obveously pro-town.

I donno. Normally I'd agree, but I'm not sure how we can really test the watcher, seeing as how if we mislynch today we'll be in lynch or lose tommorow, and then we we can't really test her claim tommorow, we just have to believe it or not believe it and take our chances.

That being said, if I was reasonably confident that lynching someone else would turn up a scum, that would be ideal, since if we manage to lynch a scum that's not DBE then we could test her tommorow without it costing us the game if she's lying. But at the moment, the case against Dasq is weak, and in fact his actions yesterday felt pretty pro-town to me; I'm not willing to lynch someone I think is probably town here when we seem to have better options.

Really, I'd like to lynch someone who was on the Coron wagon yesterday. I just can't imagine that there wasn't at least one scum on that wagon; considering that the scum would have all known Coron was telling the truth and was a tracker, just seems like the chance to get rid of a tracker would have been more then a scum could resist. Which is part of the reason I keep going back and fouth between you and DBE, actually.

[Yosarian2]

Huh...that's...bizzare.

Guardian, did you really think that the mod would let you figure out your own sanity by targeting yourself? Mods basically never do that; some don't let cops target themselves at all, others have them always come back as "innocent" no matter what their sanity is, since hte whole idea of a cop investigating himself makes no sense. And...I donno, I've just never seen a cop just waste an investigation like that just to test someone else's watcher claim, it really does seem like he might be a scum who didn't want to have to invent another cop clam.

Anyway, I highly doubt we have 3 pro-town info roles and a 1 shot vig. Besides which, if we do have both a watcher and a tracker, both town roles that are designed to figure out who is targeting who, then it seems likely there's more then one scum role that can target.

At this point, unless Guardian can explain his actions better, I think it's likely he's some kind of a scum role that can target. DBE's probably telling the truth about being a watcher (unless she's scum with Guardian, which is unlikely).

BTW, I wouldn't completly rule out the possibility of a "Scum-watcher" in a mini normal; the guidelines say...here, let me find it....

http://www.mafiascum.net/cgi-bin/wiki.p ... Definition

Other (new or otherwise) roles can be included. However, there should be no more than 1-2 of these, and they should be based around the usual game mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Voting.

...so, one scum watcher would probably be fine. But, while it's possible, I agree it's pretty unlikely.

So, I'm thinking:

DBE probably pro-town
Guardian is probably scum.

That being said, considering we've got 8 people and 2 claimed information roles, a no-lynch is probably a good idea for today.

[Yosarian2]

at Guardians "Yos attacked me so he must be scum" crap.

Guardian had absoltuly no problem with me until I attacked him, now all of a sudden I'm scum?

Responding to his defensive post from yesterday...

And...I donno, I've just never seen a cop just waste an investigation like that just to test someone else's watcher claim, it really does seem like he might be a scum who didn't want to have to invent another cop clam.

WTF again. Would have... INVESTIGATING DBE been a waste? Because that's what I accomplished. In addition, I *SHOULD* have figured out if I was insane or not insane, which would have validated my night 1 investigation... ESPECIALLY IF DBE IS A WATCHER AND THERE ARE 3 I-ROLES.

It's surprisng if Guardian actually thought that self investigating would have given information. We've had that discussion on the mafia discussion forum like 10 times, and we've always come to the consensuss that cop's should not get useful info by investigating themselves.

Anyway, I highly doubt we have 3 pro-town info roles and a 1 shot vig.

Why? Any response you say will likely boil down to MOD WIFOM.

And this response from Guardian is just mad scummy.

Yes, how on Earth could anyone come to the conlcusion that it's unlikely the town has 4 pro-town power roles, 3 of which are powerful investigative roles? ANyone who thinks that must be scum pulling a WIFOM, right?

Oh, wait...

Yeah. Know what? There aren't 3 investigative roles in a mini. Honestly, if there were, (no sarcasm) nice mod'ing Claus. The meta needs fixing, and only by making anti-meta games will it get fixed.

But in his first game, I'm betting Claus didn't make 3 investigative roles.

DBE & Dasq are voting Pyro. That's disturbing.

DBE blaming external parties for lynching Coron is disturbing. Most of all, DBE talking about the town as if she isn't a part of it is disturbing.

Albert, you're not being at all helpful, and many players would just ignore you in my place. But in thinking about it, DBE just's gotta be scum.

unvote vote: DBE

So, you were so convinced there's "no way" there were 3 pro-town information roles in a mini you wanted to lynch DBE becuase of it. And yet, I decide that 3 pro-town power roles + a vig is unlikely, and all of a sudden, you can't understand where I'm coming from and I must be scum for thinking that? Seriously, Guardian, wtf? If were town, you should understand why I think that, since you were saying the same thing just the day before, and that was when there were only 3 claims instead of 4...

SCUM need ONE mislynch to win this. If I am a roleblocker, why not block DBE and have one of my buddies claim that they targeted me? Or am I a scum cop? Or a scum townie, maybe? wtf.

Uh...pretty obveously, if you're scum, you wanted DBE to see you target yourself to "prove" your claim. I suspect that that's the reason DBE didn't die that night, was so that you could use her to prove that you did, in fact, target yourself, and you only killed her after you had proved that. Why would you want to roleblock DBE, when you can instead just use her to "prove" your role?

Scum probably need one more mislynch to win, and it sure as hell seems like you're trying to set it up to be me, yossypoo.

So, like I said. Pretty clearly 100% pure WIFOM crap here. "Yos is attacking me so Yos must be scum". Lame.

bullshit.

Uhh...the site guidlelines for mini normals are bullshit? What the hell?

but if you got to endgame with dbe you'd want to plausibly lynch her... ah I see. leaving the door open when there's no reason to.

No, that's stupid. People were making an unjustified assumption, and I was pointing out that it was an unjustified assumption. Which didn't change the fact that she was pretty obv town yesterday, and I made that clear. Guadian, you're really streching here.

[Yosarian2]

Albert, damnit, unvote. We're at lynch or lose, why the hell would you put a second vote on someone before I even had a chance to say anything? Please unvote before Guardian's scumbuddies notice what you did.

[Yosarian2]

Yos2 tried to set me up for mislynch yesterday, plain and simple. He reacted very strongly against someone saying I should investigate him, as well.

And this is also pretty clearly just crap. Yes, Guardian, I attacked you yesterday. How the hell does that "prove" I'm scum? "Trying to set me up for a mislynch" is pretty much just demagogerical bullshit. Especally since Guardian's trying to mislynch me right now...

And the second sentance is even worse. If you really thought I was scum, Guardian, and we're heading into a lynch or lose, you sure as hell should have investiagted me. Why didn't you? You wanted to be able to lynch me without being proven a liar?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I'm vanillia too. I tend to think everyone is, since we've now got 3 dead pro-town roles.

[Yosarian2]

Nah man. Only scum would call Guardian scummy after he almost left the game yesterday. Do you think that was an act ?

Uh...you really think that him flipping out because you insulted him was a pro-town tell? Heh. Why, exactally, would a scum be less likely to do that then a townie?

[Yosarian2]

No... Cop 101 is investigate those you are uncertain about. I was investigating MBF or Mac, period.

Cop 101 is in lynch or lose, you find scum, period. Investigating those you are uncertain about is a good idea on day 1, but in lynch or lose?

Anyways, Note how Yos2 isn't trying to convince me that I'm wrong, he's trying to mislynch me

That's the kind of stuff that makes it hard for me to think you're town, Guardian. I have been suspicious of you, which I carefully and ratioanlly explained, and your only response has been to flip out, attack me, and then just keep insiting that you're pro-town by just repeating over and over again that an attack on you is a "mislynch", and the fact that you're attacking me for using arguments that are strictly stronger then arguments you were using the day before.

If you were town, I would think the logic of what I was saying would be self-evident, that I wouldn't have to "convince you" of anything. Unless you're town who's just so paranoid about me and so annoyed that I attacked you that you're not listening to logic.

DBE flipping Watcher pretty much confirms Guardian, IMO. The idea that he's a targetting scum role that targeted himself to confirm a townie is pretty damn farfetched.

Eh? Why's that farfetched? I'd think that any other logical explination for "cop wasts an investigation targeting himself" and "both power roles left alive by the scum" is just as unlikely. Hell, if I was a scum power role in Guardian's position, I'd be tempted to target myself and leave DBE alive as a witness to it.

I donno. I've thought Guardian was more likely town then not all game, but his claimed night actions and his behavior yesterday are just, ugh.

The fact that he's just accusing Guardian of OMGUS here is a pretty good indicator IMO.

Um...did you see the overly emotional way he acted when I and Albert attacked him yesterday? No matter what his alignment is, I can't see how there's any doubt that his attack on me was OMGUS.

[Yosarian2]

Well, as you guys are apparently all going ignore me yet again and follow Guardian and Albert to yet another mislynch for the lose after they mislead the town day 1 and day 2 respectavly, I can at least take solace in the fact that if Albert is protown, that after this game I won't have to ever again hear him bragging about his "perfect scumcatching record."

[Yosarian2]

Ignoring the early votes and lurker votes, he's voted for me and DBE all game, so he has a 0/2 vote record (0/4 if you consider he voted me twice and his early Near vote).

(shrug) If I think I've found scum, why should I vote-hop? And 0/2, if that is true (I like how you just act like we should all assume you're town) is still better then most people in this game. Considering we haven't lynched scum all game, pretty much everyone's voting record is bad, by definition...

And only two people get his vote the entire game? That's a problem.

Eh? Why's that a problem? Again, if I'm suspicicious of someone, why should I vote hop and vote for other people?

Yosarian has been playing very carefully because he's scum. He's content to sitting back and letting the town destroy itself (which was easy given Coron's odd play, DBE's weak claim, Guardian's odd choices, my bad play, ABR's erratic play, etc)

I've been pretty clearly trying to STOP the town from destroying itself all game. If people had freaking listened to me, we never would have done the dumb Coron lynch or the illogical Dasquin lynch.

[Yosarian2]

And 0/2, if that is true (I like how you just act like we should all assume you're town) is still better then most people in this game.

Really? 0% success is good by comparison?

So far, of the people who are dead and who's alignment we know lynched, I was right about Coron, right about Dasquin, and wrong about DBE. You were wrong about all 3 of them. So yes, my "sucess" ratio this game is better then yours, and better then most people in this town in fact.

Yes. Instead we would have done a Near lynch and a DBE lynch, which is just as bad, but was more logical.

I was wrong about DBE, that is true. You are misrepresenting me about Near, though; I was voting Near for a while, but by the end of the day I was opposing a Near bandwagon as well.

[Yosarian2]

Uh, I never said that Guardian was probably a scum watcher, dude. I was suggesting that he might be some kind of scum role that can target, who targeted himself and then delibratly left DBE alive to prove he could do it. I suggested that because his claim seemed so odd, as did the fact that both he and DBE were left alive.

I highly doubt that "townies get frustrated more then scum". I've seen scum, especally scum who think they're being attacked for reasons they think are bad, totally flip out, pleanty of times.

Post 97: "Investigating those you are uncertain about is a good idea on day 1, but in lynch or lose?" Why would you investigate somebody you were certain about? This doesn't even make sense.

If you're going into lynch or lose, you need to find a scum. So in that sitatuion, the right solution for a cop is to investigate the person he thinks is most likely scum, because the town needs to find one scum immedeatly.

[Yosarian2]

So far, of the people who are dead and who's alignment we know lynched, I was right about Coron, right about Dasquin, and wrong about DBE. You were wrong about all 3 of them. So yes, my "sucess" ratio this game is better then yours, and better then most people in this town in fact.

Of course, this is a pretty shoddy argument. Of course you were right - you knew they were town. In fact, you know everyone who's town - being as you're not. Good job there.

So, I'm attacked for being wrong once, and now I'm being attacked for being right twice? Great.

[Yosarian2]

So what if you've been right about dead townies? You've never found scum.

NO ONE has found scum yet this game, dude.

[Yosarian2]

Go, scum!

Good game, all. Lots of fun. You guys almost had us.

[Yosarian2]

Lol. Yeah, I was pretty sure ABR was going to end up costing the town the game one way or another.

[Yosarian2]

QUADRUPLE POST!

Well-played, scum. I had PyroDwarf nailed but Joudas and Yos totally fooled me

Really? I found it hard as hell to get a good read on Pyro because he was so absent. Yos was so scummy it hurt. He hardly did any scumhunting and his logic for getting me lynched was terrible. I'm somewhat irritated that I'm the only one that saw it. The only reason I knew Pyro was scum was because of his obvious connection to Yos.

Eh? No, my logic against you was fine. You were really scummy looking day 1, pushing that illogical attack against Coron, especally the way you switched to him right before the end of the day, and that whole "I was trying to get a no lynch thing" was just absurdly scummy. 100% sure I would have acted the exact same way towards you as town, and I also would have argued the same way against the Coron wagon day if I was town. Probably the biggest mistake I made this game was backing off you and not getting you lynched there when I had the chance, but eh, was worried it'd make me look bad if I pushed it all the way to a lynch.

The only scummy thing I did that day (the thing I wouldn't have done as town) was trying to get DBE lynched after she claimed. I was taking a risk pushing that one, since I wouldn't have done it as town, but eh, we really did need her dead there.

[Yosarian2]

Heh...I tease, but honestly, I think ABR's playstyle has improved a lot. That subtle little trap he set a few days ago involving Guardian was pretty impressive, and in general his playstyle was good at getting useful reactions out of people. I will say that he will get even bettter when he starts being a little less sure of his own opinions and becomes a little more flexable, but mostly, the problem was that instead of the town watching his actions and learning from the reactions people gave to him and basically using his playstyle to the town's advantage, they pretty much just sheeped him blindly, to their detrement.