Newbie #1185 (Game Over!)

[syndromeofadown]

One question to everyone, how much Mafia experience do you have?

Let's see, I've played real life mafia once a long time ago, I've played IRC mafia quite a bit, I've played once on-site as town 2 years ago (I really sucked though my team won). For those of you familiar with Smogon, I've played their bastardized version of IRC mafia (basically 5-minute, power role, follow the cop, don't think for yourself mafia. Not fun). If you're wondering why I just randomly decided to play a game here after not playing for over 2 years, honestly I have no idea. I just remembered this place existed after forgetting about it and decided it might be fun to play a game since I have time.

As far as my name being inappropriate or not, I was like 16 when I came up with this username and thought it was funny and clever. Now, not so much . Good luck everyone and have fun!

[syndromeofadown]

Discussion can only get you so far, mostly its just a way to feel out other players and get a glimpse of how they might be dangerous/helpful later on. I really don't like when people over-analyze every little detail and try to use that as evidence for or against someone as being scum at this early stage in the game. The real scumhunting, imo, doesn't start till day 2 when we find out:
>what alliance the day 1 lynchee was
>who voted/didn't vote the day 1 lynchee and why
>who was killed n1

Really, until we have more information there are no "tells" and voting is mostly random/arbitrary. Don't take day 1 so seriously. If you want to discuss something, discuss, but I doubt you'll figure out anything very meaningful.

[syndromeofadown]

Workdawg, you realize you voted for me twice? Or was the second vote just for emphasis?

It's only my honest opinion, I'm not trying to stifle discussion, if you want to discuss be my guest. I'll happily participate in any discussion if only for the fact that I like to discuss things. Interrogate me till your heart's content if that's what it takes for you to think I'm not scum.

@Shiidaji I'm taking day 1's posts with a grain of salt until I see what happens day 2. Later days I might come back and reanalyze, but for now I'm refraining from attacking/defending anyone based on day 1's posts alone. If you think that's not being serious then I guess I'm not being serious.

[syndromeofadown]

Ahhh, I see what you mean then tierce. What do you consider to be proactive talk?

[syndromeofadown]

I'll offer my opinion on things, but I won't attack anyone yet. Not until I have facts to back it up. For me, day 1 is just discussion and feeling out other players, too early for scumhunting. Somehow you've taken this and are trying to make an argument that I'm anti-town. I find it funny that you're attacking me for not "getting my voice out" when I've responded and given my opinion on everything presented so far. I've given my opinion. You, on the other hand, really haven't given much insight at all. You want me to vote? Fine, I'll put my RVS vote on you then. Keep in mind this is an RVS, not an attack.

VOTE: Shiidaji

Are you happy now?

[syndromeofadown]

Dat reaction. Why so tense over one more vote?

I never said, or even implied you were being anti-town, but I am rather happy, actually. My read on you has changed for the worse.

You saying you having null-towns on everyone except me or haycorn and then voting me doesn't imply anything? I voted you because you're being illogical, and because you wanted me to vote someone. Why so tense over one more vote? I'll most likely unvote you before you end of the day. Honestly, if I were attacking you or anyone else in this game, I'd have a whole different tone. This is me being nice.

[syndromeofadown]

And since apparently you're still in your little RVS world, this implies you've yet to find anyone even remotely suspicious, correct?
If not, tell me what you have from the past three pages. Otherwise, I don't see why you're complaining that I'm voting you.

You're right, we are still in RVS. We literally cannot discern scum from townie with what we have so far. We've been over this. Everything boils down to wifom. There are no scumtells day 1. Scum is found with a combination of facts and reactions, not reactions alone. You have no idea how I react when I am town. You have no idea how I react when I am scum. If you cannot understand this, I question your grasp on this game.

Here are my opinions on people so far:

fathom42 - likes to play the game and be involved
tierce - has experience, probably knows how to play fairly well
Workdawg - Pretty good IC, I can tell he's a pretty logical player.
Cav - intelligent
haycorn - quiet, posts lack content
Sampson - not enough info
Shiidaji - possible reading comprehension problems?
inte - hasn't posted yet

[syndromeofadown]

Now then, regarding your reads, they say nothing that isn't either obvious or a pointless observation. I care more about who you feel is even slightly leaning scum. If you find yourself grasping at straws, then

say so

.

That's exactly my point. Go back and read the previous pages. I've made my opinion very clear. I have no feelings one way or another about who is scum at this point. Feelings this early are pointless speculation. They get town nowhere. That said, it's good that we're having this conversation as it might be helpful later on when we have more facts to judge our cases on.

Fact: a fact is something like who died, who was voted out, who voted who and why. Those are facts. Those are things you should base you case on, combined with how people react when questioned with these facts. I'm not a master at this game. This is my second game here, I am still a newbie. You're the SE. You tell

me

why

I'm

wrong.

I'm not even mad at you and I'm sorry if you thought I was. I'm just getting frustrated having to repeat myself.

[syndromeofadown]

No.

[syndromeofadown]

No, I do not see how it is scummy. Strange, yes. Scummy, no.

[syndromeofadown]

Hey, welcome to the game inte, I can tell I like you already. @Haycorn, don't be sorry. If you want me out of the game, vote me. No hard feelings.

By the way

"Town: 1-3
Scum: 3-0"

Who else thinks it might be a good idea to lynch Workdawg just because he might turn out to be dangerous as scum? I know it's metagaming, but he hasn't lost once as scum, but he's lost 3 times as Town. With all else being neutral it might be a good idea to just get rid of the guy who has the highest chances of being dangerous later on?

VOTE: Workdawg

inb4 people call me wishy washy for changing my vote. I know somebody's going to think by voting shii and unvoting I'm trying to distance without bussing, but trust me I'm not. LOL

[syndromeofadown]

LOL it is kind of funny. Do you guys thing that's even ethical? Should everyone start out a clean slate?

[syndromeofadown]

Ugh, my intuition is really telling me a certain player is scum, but I don't want to put the spotlight on them just yet. For three reasons: one, I would come off hypocritical after all my speeches about day 1; two, my intuition could be wrong and I feel I should wait for when I have a better case against them, and three, I want to keep scum in the dark, make them second guess themselves and look for changes in behavior after posting this. I honestly don't know if I should even be posting this since it goes against every strategy I decided on coming into the game, but for now

Unvote

PS, what do you guys think the setup is? For now I'm feeling 2 mafia, 6 town, and a power role (doctor if I had to guess)

[syndromeofadown]

LOL ur probly rite. OR MAYBE THAT'S WHAT I WANT YOU TO THINK?

[syndromeofadown]

I'm preparing a big post, sorry the reason I haven't been posting is I've been busy with thanksgiving, I haven't forgotten

[syndromeofadown]

I appologize for posting a wall of text. I know it looks ugly, but I couldn't figure out a better way to post this. My commentary will be in bold.

Hi! I'm haycorn. This is my first game on the site, but I was a huge fan of Cry Wolf back in the day, so if I start entering the day phase by rapidly typing suspicious visions, please forgive me..

First post and she's already asking people to forgive her for being suspicious? This isn't a good start...

I feel like there would be a very fine line between "thoughtful consideration of a question" and "I don't want to answer that so I'm going to imply you shouldn't ask."

Awwww. Fathom, I like your icon, but I also think that Mordin would not be very good at Mafia.

Second post and third posts, from here on you'll start noticing a pattern in her posting. She posts just often enough to not be a lurker, while saying something which doesn't add anything to the conversation.

Sorry! My computer blew up and so I have been on my cell this weekend. This is not conducive to thoughtful analysis. I promise to post something well thought out and insightful when I get my new computer set up tonight.

I apologize for my playstyle not helping the town. I do tend to be an observer by nature, but I can see where this would be a problem. As I said, when I am at home tonight and can read more than two lines at a time, I will post something just as suspicious and accusatory as everyone else's posts. I am completely willing to talk-- I just can't find what to say at the moment.

She admits she hasn't contributed anything, and admits she hasn't been helping the town, and then blames it on her computer blowing up. I do not believe her computer blew up, but whether it has or not, just because she admits to not being helpful to the town doesn't make it any less of a problem.

(just a note-- this quote list feature is FANTASTIC!)

If you cannot understand this, I question your grasp on this game.

Well then, if

you

apparently have a grasp on this game, do enlighten me as to what these 'facts' are derived from. No really, I'd like to hear it, because you're obviously a master at this game, able to weed out scum without batting an eyelash.

No.

All I see here is theory argument and fighting about who plays the game better. At first, SOAD's "no" post really stood out to me. I'm not sure what the point of posting such a rude response would be other than to keep the debate going and raise the level of hostility, which to my inexperienced eyes seems scummy. Upon what has to be my fifth re-read (yes, I really was keeping up with the post on my phone) I think I can see where that anger was coming from, as Shii was definitely attacking SOAD's skill as a player, but by the same token, SOAD questioned all our skills first.

As for inte, you should really stop giving newbies a bad name and start learning some social skills. I am actually hesitant to think of you as mafia, because it would mean you are really, REALLY bad at it (and yes, I did just do what I criticized SOAD and Shii for doing.) And also, since your new reply just popped up, go back and review the thread. Tierce is female, and I'm not sure I'd refer to her as "kind-hearted."

I suppose at this point I would be most inclined to VOTE: VOTE: syndromeofadown. Sorry.

This is supposed to be her big breakthrough post? First paragraph says a whole lot of nothing, just summarizing what happened. Then out of the blue attacks inte. You'll notice this doesn't match up with the rest of her posting style. It seems to me that she freaked out after people noticed she wasn't analyzing anything and just decided to attack the two most scummy-looking players so everyone would take the pressure off of her.

Then she votes for me, after showing no signs of previously thinking I'm scummy or even trying to bait a reaction out of me, with flimsy reasoning at best. Finally, she ends the post saying she's sorry, as if she's trying to be as non-provocative as possible so she can go back to sliding under the radar.

Personally, I think the Shii/SOAD thing was scummy from both sides. I don't approve of either of them resorting to personal attacks (i.e. "I question your grasp on this game," Shii's sarcasm, etc.). Either one of them could be baiting the other, trying to get them to post something reactionary.

Maybe they are both scum and have prearranged their argument so we never suspect they are in cahoots. Or is that too WIFOM?

Phrasing a question as a "maybe" because she knows it's not true?

@Tierce My reasoning was that I saw the "No" post as an attempt to provoke hostility. While I can understand your read on his reaction, I felt like he was intentionally trying to further the fight.

I am aware we can't know what soad and shii are up to. I just had the thought and wanted to share it so I wouldn't be so lurky.

This justification doesn't add up. I want to know why I'm scummy. Just because I said "no" in a really mean and rude way is a good enough reason to vote me? I guess I could forgive that, but what's worse is the second part. You wanted to post this so "you wouldn't be so lurky?". How is that at all a good reason to post, ever? A better reason would have been "because I wanted to be clear on my vote" or "I wanted you to see why SOAD is obviously scum". But she didn't say that. The real reason she's been posting all this time is "so she wouldn't be lurky"

4) him and his are non gendered terms on the internet. i don't assume anyone is male or female. i actually assume everyone is transgendered. it really shouldn't be relevant if you're guy gal or other though.

Since when? I have never been in any online environment where it was considered acceptable to refer to someone explicitly identified as female as "him" or "he."

Also, were I transgendered I would probably appreciate being referred to either by one of the invented non-gendered pronouns or by the pronoun that corresponds to the gender I have identified myself as.

I know we are here to play Mafia, not to discuss the politics of language, but really. Don't be an asshole and then try to justify it with "more open-minded than thou" logic.

I honestly don't get the feeling she really cares that much about the whole he/she thing. She's just looking for another reason to post more fluff. Haycorn is the seinfeld of mafia. It's an entire 3 paragraph post about nothing. At least nothing game related.

@Shiidaji
I'm not sorry for voting and am not even sure why I kept that word in there. I had been going to say that my vote was not because of what SOAD said, but because of how he said it, and that it was not my entry into your little tiff.

Was there an SOAD wagon? I was of the impression that all three votes for him came at totally different times for totally different reasons. I'd hate to be on a wagon and not know it.

She slips up, gets called on it and tries to play the old "sorry I didn't really mean to say that" card. Not buying it. Stop trying to be so cutesy. That second part just really strikes me as scummy. She knew there was a wagon, and she jumped on it, and now she's trying to say she was never on a wagon and she'd

hate

to be on a wagon. Why would she hate being on a wagon if she's certain that player is scum? Is it because she's not really interested in lynching scum? Was the real reason that she joined the bandwagon because she didn't want to appear "so lurky?"

@Shii

I think maybe I see "provoking" and "baiting for reactions" to be, if not synonymous, at least very close to one another. If he made the post solely to get you more angry, I see that as sowing discord, which I see as scummy. Maybe I'm wrong. That's why I'm in a newbie game, because I've only ever done this five years ago in a totally different setup, and there's only so much I can learn by reading completed games. If he just wasn't willing to keep talking, than that wouldn't be provoking, but that's not how I read that post.

Ahh. I was thinking of wagon in terms of more of a bandwagon, and wanted to say that I voted for him for my own reason, not because anyone else did.

Not that it matters, but the wagon confusion really was just me being new and uninformed. I conflated wagon and sleeping. I get it now, though.

>I'm voting for my own reasons, honest. It's because he said NO in a really mean way. I'm not on a bandwagon. stop paying attention to my votes.

I can't deal with the post being so far down on the page. It makes me sad.

Tierce, you make some excellent points about Shii, though I had assumed that was because s/he is an SE. It does bear thinking about though. Also, and totally unrelated to the game but I would be remiss in not saying so, your posts are extremely well-written, and had you not specified that English was not your first language, not only would I not have known, I would STILL think they were very well-written.

>Whew everyone forgot about me and my little red wagon, lets continue posting about things totally unrelated to the game. You know, so it doesn't come across as lurking.

Overall, haycorn strikes me as the scummiest player, and I'm honestly surprised nobody else has picked up on this yet. She just really rubs me the wrong way. I've compiled every single one of her posts into one place, and after 6 pages all she's posted is fluff. If it isn't obvious already,

VOTE: haycorn

. And a couple of questions for her too:

>What are your opinions on literally any other player besides me? You haven't said anything to indicate one way or another
>Who do you think is second most scummy and why?
>You admitted that your last post had nothing to do with the game. Why post it then? Do you still just have nothing to say about the actual game?
>You even admitted your playstyle doesn't help the town. Even if you're not scum, what reasons do we have to keep you around if you're going to continue not helping the town?

[syndromeofadown]

I've been drawing all morning, so my brain is all measurements and boulders. While I wouldn't discard SOAD's points offhand, they still read as "hello look at me I'm a distraction from the pressure on me". Try defending yourself before attacking others. We want to hear about you too.

I thought I made my points very clear, but I realize a wall of text is hard to read through. My main reasons are: 1) Fluffiness, we've already been through this. 2) Passiveness in voting. Voting me is fine, but the way she did it without trying to prod me or feel anyone out first, even asking forgiveness, makes it seem like she just wanted to quietly jump on the bandwagon. 3) She seems to be more preoccupied with self-preservation than finding scum, for example:

SOAD, because I would want to know if he has an agenda against me or just really believes I'm scum.

When asked to give her opinion on an issue, the reasoning she gives is never "because I want to know who is scum!" or "because I want a better read on player X" but "because I want to know who's out to get me" or "I want to appear less scummy".

As for "try defending yourself first before attacking others" What do you mean by this? If I missed a question against me, feel free to point it out, but what you're implying is that everyone should have a clean slate before accusing anyone of anything. Just because people think I'm scum I'm no longer allowed to voice my opinion? I have a feeling this is more of a miscommunication, though, which is why I want you to clarify.

Also, quick question, if you suddenly turned into a DayCop(A cop who can check someone's alignment during the day) who would you check right now and why?

You would be my first pick because you act the complete opposite of Cav, who I never had a strong read on in the first place. And the fact that you came into this game as the first person to have a town-tell on me AND have the same scumtell almost sounds too good to be true. At first, saying if the lynch goes through and I flipped scum you volunteer to be lynched next sounds noble, but at the same time a person playing scum would KNOW I would flip town, so as scum you would be risking nothing. That's not to say I think you're scum, I just have a difficult time reading you one way or the other.

By the way, how do you do spoilers? When I posted that wall earlier I wanted it to be hidden in a little spoiler box thingy so it wouldn't stretch the page, but it just kept coming up as blacked-out text in the preview.

[syndromeofadown]

The way I see it, there are two possible outcomes from this-

1. You don't believe me. You lynch me anyway. Maybe something turns up in the discussion that leads to a spark of thought that catches scum. You can start Day 2 and have more information to work with. Town benefits.
2. You believe me and lynch someone else. Maybe they are scum. I almost certainly get Nightkilled, but that means that if there's another power role, they stay alive for another night. Town benefits.

And what happens if you're not lynched and you don't die n1? This question isn't just for you, it's for the whole town. What are we prepared to do if haycorn survives to day 2? Do we believe her jailkeeper claim? huge wifom tommorow if you're still alive.

If haycorn is scum, it's most likely with an experienced player.

Care to explain this?

SOAD, who are your scum reads?

(in order from most suspicious to least suspicious)
scum-leaning
haycorn
sampson - It's a pretty sad day when the moderator has more posts and more content in this thread than one of the players. I realize you're on v/la but you better post something good when you get back!
fathom42 - for reasons previously given. Also he's kind of annoying me with the false-deadlines. I'm still willing to give him a chance if he stops lurking and posts something substantial, though.

neutral
workdawg - something's bugging me about him that I can't put my finger on. Not getting strong town vibes from him, but he hasn't done anything to warrant lynching him

town-leaning
tierce
shiidaji - the more I analyze his posts, the more townie he seems.
BBmolla - Didn't come off town at first, and I was confused as to why he had a strong town read on me and shii. Of course, after rereading the thread and trying to put myself in his shoes, I'm pretty sure I know where he's coming from and why he thinks what he thinks. Could be wrong though.
inte - gut instinct is telling me he's playing a bored townie.

[syndromeofadown]

I think sampson and fathom are scum

vote: fathom