TM 2023 | Mini Normal | Endgame

[Ausuka]

VOTE: ydrasse

They slammed the door on me in phasmophobia just before the ghost started hunting, and I'm still mad about it

[Ausuka]

I suppose I should also drop my curriculum as courtesy in case anyone is in need of a

HERO OF JUSTICE

somewhere else in their life as well. A sweetheart, ain't I?

This is cute. Don't listen to the haters

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Dkkoba

CHOOCHOOCHOOCHOO THE TRAIN CAN'T STOP WON'T STOP

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Dkkoba

CHOOCHOOCHOOCHOO THE TRAIN CAN'T STOP WON'T STOP

what do you hope to get out of voting me?

I'm standing in solidarity with my bestie Shirou

[Ausuka]

UNVOTE:

Datisi townreads koba unfortunately so i must look elsewhere

[Ausuka]

We are besties but Datisi will bully me if I don't do everything he says

Blame datisi for being so mean

[Ausuka]

UNVOTE:

Datisi townreads koba unfortunately so i must look elsewhere

ur supposed to let the vote sit on me as bait for potential scum

Ok

VOTE: Koba

[Ausuka]

DGB hasn't said much, which is interesting for her, same with Mastina.

Please elaborate on what this is trying to imply?

[Ausuka]

DGB hasn't said much, which is interesting for her, same with Mastina.

Please elaborate on what this is trying to imply?

I've played games where both DGB and Mastina have said more earlier rather than later. Mastina is coming in now, but DGB's presence is more known by now.

Mm, I get that. I'm more so asking about
1) why were you saying this, like, so close to the start of the game where a lot of people just haven't checked in yet and
2) when you say it's interesting, what does that mean? Like, are you implying it's alignment indicative?

[Ausuka]

It's not that I don't understand what you're saying, I just wanted to see if there was more to what you were saying than what was on the surface. I think it looks, like, a very nothing and filler thing to say, and so far I think that could apply to all the rest of your posting too, especially the "I like the pressure on koba" thing

VOTE: Italiano

[Ausuka]

she definitely does that as town too

[Ausuka]

viewtopic.php?p=13503235#p13503235

[Ausuka]

ydrasse capitalism arc?

[Ausuka]

Ydra do you have like experience with xoffy?

[Ausuka]

Ydra do you have like experience with xoffy?

some but not a lot, why do you ask?

It's because this is just how xoffy is in mafia games, particularly with the "popping in and not doing much" thing. Datisi was very adamant that I should ask you about it because he thinks you should know better. I don't really feel as strongly as he does about it, but I think there's a point there.

[Ausuka]

Arkos 201 is scummy btw.

I’m down to yeet him as well.

Can you elaborate? While that post wasn't super towny, I was reading arko as town

[Ausuka]

Ydra do you have like experience with xoffy?

some but not a lot, why do you ask?

It's because this is just how xoffy is in mafia games, particularly with the "popping in and not doing much" thing. Datisi was very adamant that I should ask you about it because he thinks you should know better. I don't really feel as strongly as he does about it, but I think there's a point there.

i just went and checked and there was also the large normal as well, but i’m a little confused about the adamancy of the stance i guess?

like it was something i didn’t even post in thread until expanding on what was a townread because i recognized it didn’t really hold weight but it was still on my mind at the beginning of the game.

did he expand on what me not knowing that about xof meant for like my alignment or do you have any other thoughts on it? the way you put it feels like “should know better” is an indictment of my play but i dunno on what direction it goes for either me or xof

He has elaborated

He thinks given your experience with them in large 241 + the last TM, in which xof had similar posts (and that xofelf is kind of prodge-prone in general, sorry xoffy) you probably did know better, and you also noted something like that in your original post. He thinks that if town!ydrasse has that thought, they don't believe it and don't post it, but scum ydrasse would post it to show that they are thinking about the game and solving and stuff.

[Ausuka]

@mala sorry but I have a couple more questions

1) Why do you expect that scum!aisa would just let your push go and not ask for elaboration?

2) Do you think italiano is scum?

[Ausuka]

Thoughts on Ydra.

Gun to head I would still call her null. Some of her posting feels quite natural. She's doing some scumhunting and while I don't always find her conclusions super solid I can easily see the world where her ISO is her actual thought process at this time.

But there is this one thing that bugs me:
I feel like the (look like I have thoughts) to (thoughts) ratio in her ISO is quite high. Mostly because (look like I have thoughts) is so high. She has a supremely easy to follow ISO at the moment because every little action and implication is made explicit. This is pro-town but perhaps something scum are even more incentivised to do than town?

UNVOTE:

for reference i voted aisa because i thought their opening was a little stilted ie mirror someone's vote on them rather than post something wholly unique and the .1% thing in reference to me felt nervous to take much of a stance. i also thought that their reply to me in 94 wasn't as telling as i wanted but

Oh and I wanna know why mastina thinks I'm town
There are so many questions of that sort I could direct to various people that I'm almost feeling a bit of choice paralysis lol

felt like a towny thing to say, i guess it could be a copout but tonally i believe it

The feeling started when she made this post.

Vote / question someone -> unvote after their reply
Is definitely a pattern I've seen from scum before

i think i agree most with the mala read, it's not an unreasonable one for her to have and she doesnt feel very threatened or like, on edge i guess as if she was pretending to feel that strongly and then being challenged

This is another thing that pinged me. Kinda agree with it, but at the same time am still wary of Mala because her read on mastina rings major "could be a scum tunnel" alarm bells. So Ydra comes across to me like she doesn't have this paranoia I am feeling, which in turn makes me wonder if this is just a sentence, packaged ready for consumption, rather than a read she actually has.

Any thoughts here from anyone who is more familiar with her?

OMG this is soooo easy

VOTE: Aisa

Mm-hmm
What is your case?

Sorry but I'm kinda confused by the logic here, am I misunderstanding that this is the post that means Aisa is pushing her neck out?

[Ausuka]

[Ausuka]

But yes Auska that is the post I’m referencing

Shrug I mean I still think it's scummy but if you are town there is not much else I can ask you to resolve the situation

[Ausuka]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THIS BESTIE???

I am entertained

[Ausuka]

oh to be clear I thought your post was scummy not Aisa's sorry

I think aisa's post was like, kind of extremely neutral in a way I am kind of skeptical people would townbin someone for and I think it could maybe be tmi on aisa being town

[Ausuka]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THIS BESTIE???

I am entertained

Glad someone is because I’m not nor is Kuribo.

I’m actually quite pissed.
I’m going to be boarding a plane in a few hours and I won’t be able to post or remotely defend myself.

This was premature by Shiro and anittown at best,

If you want my claws Shiro I’ll give you the devils right hand.

So fucking beware.

(Ps I got Kuribo by my side)

Oh do you think shirou is actually a gladiator?

[Ausuka]

He has elaborated

He thinks given your experience with them in large 241 + the last TM, in which xof had similar posts (and that xofelf is kind of prodge-prone in general, sorry xoffy) you probably did know better, and you also noted something like that in your original post. He thinks that if town!ydrasse has that thought, they don't believe it and don't post it, but scum ydrasse would post it to show that they are thinking about the game and solving and stuff.

i'm uninterested in arguing this point because fmpov his assumption of me/what he thinks i act like is... fundamentally wrong which feels harsh to say but i often have mundane or uninteresting thoughts that i dont always share unless the moment feels right to do so. and also the fact that i wasn't even thinking about "does xof do this normally meta these games" undermines it. i don't think we get anything productive from exclusively this line

however it did ring some alarm bells because i feel like the strongest things i could remember about your posting were ones given by your team to you to post and i was worried that you were being coached but dunn read some and didn't come up with much to say about your slot other than liking a vote that you made on italiano so lol
(dunn thinks italiano is wolfy because of his concern about DGB without saying much among some other posts)
(i'm unsure if i agree but as suspicion was floated before about him might as well share)

Do you think i need coaching

[Ausuka]

He has elaborated

He thinks given your experience with them in large 241 + the last TM, in which xof had similar posts (and that xofelf is kind of prodge-prone in general, sorry xoffy) you probably did know better, and you also noted something like that in your original post. He thinks that if town!ydrasse has that thought, they don't believe it and don't post it, but scum ydrasse would post it to show that they are thinking about the game and solving and stuff.

i'm uninterested in arguing this point because fmpov his assumption of me/what he thinks i act like is... fundamentally wrong which feels harsh to say but i often have mundane or uninteresting thoughts that i dont always share unless the moment feels right to do so. and also the fact that i wasn't even thinking about "does xof do this normally meta these games" undermines it. i don't think we get anything productive from exclusively this line

however it did ring some alarm bells because i feel like the strongest things i could remember about your posting were ones given by your team to you to post and i was worried that you were being coached but dunn read some and didn't come up with much to say about your slot other than liking a vote that you made on italiano so lol
(dunn thinks italiano is wolfy because of his concern about DGB without saying much among some other posts)
(i'm unsure if i agree but as suspicion was floated before about him might as well share)

Do you think i need coaching

i don't think you need it but it could still be a thing that's happening if he feels he knows a "better" or right thing to say. it weirded me out that his stances were like.. followed i guess? more? idk how to explain this, but the koba vote early on and then i thought the commentary about me was strange enough to talk to my team with

You were talking about my posting as a whole being coached, not any specific instance. I'm not convinced you believe I as scum would need that kind of coaching after the last game we played together?

[Ausuka]

I also don't like how Ausuka asked me about my thoughts and when I answer, seemingly not good enough for them, they vote me, which is meh?

Is the implication here that if you ask about anything, you have to townread the answer?

[Ausuka]

I also don't like how Ausuka asked me about my thoughts and when I answer, seemingly not good enough for them, they vote me, which is meh?

Is the implication here that if you ask about anything, you have to townread the answer?

No, not at all, but it felt like busy work with not a real attempt to actually sort me. I also didn't like how you voted Koba because of Shirou, unvoted because of 'Datisi' and then revoted because of Koba. Were you actually scumreading Koba and if so why?

What do you think town would have done differently there?

No I wasn't actually scumreading Koba

[Ausuka]

What do you think town would have done differently there?

No I wasn't actually scumreading Koba

Town does a lot of different things, so who knows, but I would've taken it in stride and kept an eye on them. My point is why ask a question if your vote is a forgone conclusion. To clarify, I'm not saying your vote was, but that's how I perceived it. You asked, I answered, my answers weren't good enough for you, vote.

Ok, so what about that suggests it was a foregone conclusion? Isn't that just contradictory to the idea that your answers weren't good enough?

[Ausuka]

What do you think town would have done differently there?

No I wasn't actually scumreading Koba

Town does a lot of different things, so who knows, but I would've taken it in stride and kept an eye on them. My point is why ask a question if your vote is a forgone conclusion. To clarify, I'm not saying your vote was, but that's how I perceived it. You asked, I answered, my answers weren't good enough for you, vote.

Ok, so what about that suggests it was a foregone conclusion? Isn't that just contradictory to the idea that your answers weren't good enough?

My perception.

Ok well my perception is that you're full of shit

[Ausuka]

No I wasn't actually scumreading Koba

Okay, fair enough. Why was it unfortunate that Datisi thought Koba was town and that you had to go elsewhere? What are your thoughts on Koba now?

My perception was that it was unfortunate

I don't have anything to super strongly point to Koba being town or scum. My feeling is that they are more likely to be town and my team agrees with me

[Ausuka]

It was intentional - I don't think going back and forth on it is going to be productive. I don't think if you are town there is anything I could ask that would make what you were saying more believable to me at this point. I'd rather just take it into account and see what you do going forward.

[Ausuka]

I think kowahbungah comes off as limbait more than anything else. The push on koba is the kind of thing which would be really counterintuitive for scum to do and seems genuine to me. I'm really not convinced by the argument that they're scum for pushing there when other people are townreading Koba - I think it is common for town players to behave that way, especially more aggressive ones.

[Ausuka]

I can kind of understand townreading Italiano's ate but I don't think there's anything substantial from him. His play doesn't really feel like genuine scumhunting to me at all.

I think the most egregious part of his play so far was when I asked about his scumread on my questioning and he tried to play it off as "I'm not saying your read was fake, but my perception was that it is" which is obviously bizarre. When I asked about it he just repeated that it's his perception without like elaborating on the read. It felt like he was saying something he couldn't back up, and it definitely did not feel like a genuine thought process.

Other than that push the main things he has done is the AtE, making the shit-stirry comment about DGB and like, making broad strokes about activity instead of actually solving. I think there is a lack of genuine scumhunting in his posts and like I have not seen a compelling reason to townread him aorn.

[Ausuka]

I think kowahbungah comes off as limbait more than anything else. The push on koba is the kind of thing which would be really counterintuitive for scum to do and seems genuine to me. I'm really not convinced by the argument that they're scum for pushing there when other people are townreading Koba - I think it is common for town players to behave that way, especially more aggressive ones.

My thought is more that they on one hand appear convinced by Koba being scum but don't seem to be thinking about how they would make that elimination happen. I would expect at least some more thought about how other people townread Koba --> so I need to convince them!... or I don't think the wagon on X is as likely to hit scum as a wagon on Koba --> I should engage with this!

I should probably not respond to this before kowah does but I'm not especially convinced

[Ausuka]

ausuka you can have italianos spot on my reads list

Isn't that basically the same spot

[Ausuka]

I also agree with the xoffy townreads for whatever that's worth

[Ausuka]

ausuka you can have italianos spot on my reads list

Isn't that basically the same spot

well fine stay where u are if u want

If you were town you'd put me at the top of your readslist just saying

[Ausuka]

ausuka you can have italianos spot on my reads list

Isn't that basically the same spot

well fine stay where u are if u want

If you were town you'd put me at the top of your readslist just saying

i think if i was a wolf and you were town i would do that because i’d be worried about making you feel bad but because i’m town i’m an asshole who doesn’t think youve been towny much at all until this page

I was joking. I don't think you are particularly likely to townread me here as either alignment

[Ausuka]

You just saw a joke post, took it entirely seriously and tried to turn it into a reason to townread you but I'm the tense one
Sure ok

[Ausuka]

like christ we are not actually picking someone to kill in real life here lol

Wtf

[Ausuka]

I choose to believe this is not how town ydrasse would actually engage with me

Seriously what on earth is this page

[Ausuka]

No I think you're scum for whatever this is lol

[Ausuka]

okay so are you gonna do anything about it or just keep saying it?

You are trying to tilt.me

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Ydrasse

Science.

[Ausuka]

@Ausuka given you're voting ydra now, aside from the not believing ydra's read on xof/you, do you think ydra is playing to her "scum meta" in general with her posts?

It's not a meta read? I've only played with scum ydrasse once in the dance game. I don't think I put much focus on her slot in general there, but looking back, I don't see any significant difference that would impact my read. I think her play overall in this game has been, like, pretty thoroughly unimpressive and I don't get the vibe at all she is like, more engaged here than she was in that game or whatever. She is much more keen to ask leading questions to me than to actually talk about Kowabungah who she is actually voting for example - her only comment on him is saying he's "either very towny new or very wolfy new." While also criticising me for not making an entire case post. She doesn't feel genuine this game.

[Ausuka]

I recommend you to take a peek on her ISO in the Dance Game again

I had that same impression and I changed my mind on it on a revisit

If you think there's something wrong there, can you just say it? I mean, I revisited it, and I don't see anything obvious that would change my read. Like she was more jokey but that was a dance game and they're supposed to be fun - i don't expect people to play every game exactly the same if they are the same alignment. If I am going to make a meta read, I'd prefer to have an established pattern of behaviour over multiple games, rather than trying to find some difference between two different games to make reads.

[Ausuka]

1) a significant amount of her posts here are 1/2 liners and a lot of her serious+game related posts in the other game are longer. I don't see such a clear cut difference as you apparently do.

2) Even if that were true i would have to check, again, if there is a consistent pattern where she posts in a different pattern of length depending on her alignment- I don't get the focus on dance game specifically

[Ausuka]

viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=90403&user_select%5B%5D=34307

For example I found this game in which Ydrasse is town and almost all of her posts in the early game are one or two liners? Like more so than the scum game I would say, although I haven't looked it over too closely. I don't understand what you see in this line of argument - have you seen this game, and if so how did it impact your thinking?

[Ausuka]

I have this slight scum read forming on Shirou right now. I believe from my experience (1 game) that Shirou seems like a very hyper-analytical player. But this post:

ok wait a second i'm gonna flip a coin to see if i buy this explanation

Strikes me as very odd coming from them. I won't disagree it's a tiny thing. But it feels out of character imo. Can we grab some comments about this from everyone if they feel the same or don't?

That just reads like a joke to me

[Ausuka]

Hi, I was hoping for people to react to some of the stuff I said but it looks like things are still sluggish. I'm around now, is there anything people want to talk about? especially from the people who have been less active recently

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Italiano

Ok if you want an italiano wagon we can do that

[Ausuka]

I looked at arko:s game history and his most recent game is this

viewtopic.php?p=13704800&f=11&t=90607&u ... #p13704800

Towards the end I think it read similar to this, in that he struggles to post and starts making excuses and stuff. I think arko can be scum but I don't think I've seen any compelling reason we should kill him today

[Ausuka]

Hi, I was hoping for people to react to some of the stuff I said but it looks like things are still sluggish. I'm around now, is there anything people want to talk about? especially from the people who have been less active recently

If you think Ydra is scum is there a reason you're proposing an Italiano wagon to her?
Found myself thinking your post on Italiano from yesterday or two days ago seemed fair, but I haven't thought about Italiano a lot so far, so that's on my to-do list.

Yeah. I think
1) I am not like, confident ydrasse is scum to the extent I would refuse to engage with her - I'm not really close to that point
2) Since ydrasse made a point to note how people aren't really defending italiano but people refuse to vote him anyway, I wanted to add momentum and see what she would say in response. The reaction wasn't super helpful, but it adds at least something of a connection between italiano and ydrasse if one of them flips red in my view

I'd also be interested if you could like, elaborate on your thoughts about Italiano and my post about him? Or at least like start taking a look at him, since I think he's been a pretty major point of focus so far

[Ausuka]

VOTE: fuck yes a shiro is wagon

Mala can you elaborate on your thoughts on Shirou

You said something along the lines of his push on you being anti-town but I don't think you ever indicated he was likely to be scum so this comes off as strange to me

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Arko

Do you think arko is scum for inactivity or is it something else

[Ausuka]

Sorry for not existing

I will exist tomorrow, will completely re-read over again for good measure.

(This is TOTALLY not a prodge I am not kidding (Please don't hurt me))

When you come back can you elaborate on your thoughts on italiano and mastina

[Ausuka]

Shirou are you mad at me
Also I think you said you were going to read over italiano, did anything come of that

Pedit: Ok but i'm a lovable and cute frog so she'll respond to me right

[Ausuka]

I don't scumread Italiano but I'm not gonna say he's town either, I need to re:read his ISO when I've the time but I don't feel he has higher odds of flipping scum than Mala at the moment.

I was referring to this. I made a post about my read on italiano, did you see that or think anything about it

pedit: isn't it just me and DV who are voting for italiano

[Ausuka]

viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=90403&user_select%5B%5D=34307

For example I found this game in which Ydrasse is town and almost all of her posts in the early game are one or two liners? Like more so than the scum game I would say, although I haven't looked it over too closely. I don't understand what you see in this line of argument - have you seen this game, and if so how did it impact your thinking?

I had looked on this game you linked a bit during lunchbreak and yeah, it felt very low effort. However although I hadn't seen that game before, I don't think it changes completely what I was arguing for. I said I didn't necessarily mean your read on her was wrong but that she was objectively playing this game differently than Dance Game as you implied here:

I don't think I put much focus on her slot in general there, but looking back, I don't see any significant difference that would impact my read

I wanted to see what you would post/think if you changed your opinion about this game not having "significant differences" to the Dance Game, however you linked a town game of her where she is also lower effort.

I think you would be "winning" the argument with that if I was strictly arguing that Ydra is only casual/minimalistic in her scum games, but that's not it, I was making an observation that regardless of what everyone thinks her alignment is, she

is

playing this game differently than the Dance Game, and it does puzzle me a bit that you don't seem to concede on that point at all

Linking a different game to say she played there similarly to Dance Game kinda subconsciously/indirectly implies to me that you realize there's a difference on her play here after all but I may be reading too much into this.

I mean it doesn't contradict what I said either way because it's not a significant difference that should impact my read. If I concede the difference, which I don't really want to because I don't see it, why does it matter? Like, you initiated this line of argument, what do you think will come out of it? I sort of feel like you're approaching this like I started talking to you insisting that Ydrasse is scum because she's different from the dance game or something. I'm pretty sure I never said anything along these lines.

[Ausuka]

Like I'm pointing out that this is sort of an irrelevant line of argument and you say that's conceding that you were right on the argument which is just ??? to me

[Ausuka]

Ok, well I don't get it but I hope you found what you were looking for.

I disagree about Koba not posting anything meaningful.

It definitely applies to Arko but like come on the guy just is not here that's different.

I think kowah has not done a massive amount but his content to post ratio is kind of fine. He doesn't really have the same vibes as italiano does where he has a lot of posts and like none of them actually look like genuine sorting and trying to kill mafia.

[Ausuka]

Ausuka - Needs more work on both the target and the people on the wagon.

what

[Ausuka]

Ausuka - Needs more work on both the target and the people on the wagon.

what

I feel both sides of the wagon need more work to me. More on the wagoning side. I don't think I've understood it completely, but I'll probably ISO you at some point. I'm more leaning against the wagon till I actually look a little more into it. plus it's only been a few days, we got time.

I still don't really understand? Are you saying I need to do more? And isn't my 'wagon' just italiano

[Ausuka]

DKKoba is probably town from a mechanical point of view

what do you mean by that

[Ausuka]

Ok I'm back

Shirou i am interested to hear where koba expressed a strong townread on you?

[Ausuka]

they don't want to vote you because you're so scary and intimidating or because if you two fight it was always going to take over the thread

Idk i just remembered their readslist had you in the middle and they have been kind of not so positive about you since then

[Ausuka]

about Ausuka potentially trying to pocket me by getting into my good side...it feels possible but at the same time I'm not too worried about it right now, she's on my null pile

I must confess I'm quite weak to people humoring me/being nice to me though

(

*Meuh PSTD flashbacks*

)

Actually I'd like to ask about this

My perception was that you played more into the bestie thing than I did so looking back it's kind of strange that you would approve of this narrative like this

What did I do to pocket you that wasn't done in reverse?

Pedit: Shrug I can understand that

[Ausuka]

Also who says anime girls can't be intimidating smh

[Ausuka]

I mean, not especially. I joke around in games pretty often, and I wouldn't really ever view it as pocketing because doing that doesn't make me out to be town at all - I do it as scum too and I don't think anyone would expect otherwise. I would have thought you were similar, given your general behaviour and being light-hearted sometimes. Is pocketing people by joking with them or being nice a scum tactic which you employ often?

[Ausuka]

Yeah, obviously you do it as either alignment. You shouldn't townread me for it either, and you clearly understand that. But that's exactly why the idea that it should be looked at as a pocketing tactic is strange - if I'm scum, I will still do it not because I am scum but because I am Ausuka. What I'm trying to ask is, when you're scum, do you do this with the specific idea to pocket people?

[Ausuka]

I think we just have different ideas of the word pocketing, it's probably fine

[Ausuka]

what's unnatural about it?

[Ausuka]

Aren't you, like, used to responses like this at this point? I've read the posts, I'm trying to understand your thinking

Obviously if you have work that takes precedence

[Ausuka]

Xoffy, you said Italiano looks like scum to you. Why are you so hesitant to vote for him?

[Ausuka]

given in the above she asks me twice for what I see as the same topic, not to mention I had already said it was NAI for me from the start.

You can't pocket people in RVS. That was completely ridiculous and I was right to be suspicious of it. I realised eventually you were probably just using some weird definition of the word pocketing, where it means "any benefit scum can get out of being nice" but calling someone your bestie on page 2 is like never going to pocket them and if you had said that it would have been solidly scum indicative

[Ausuka]

I've wondered if Italiano/Ausuka could be a bus, but at the moment I think:

> Ausuka interactions toward Italiano potentially feels like a bus

> Italiano interactions towards Ausuka doesn't feel like a bus, it feels like he's struggling to understand her rather than focusing on distancing/looking good on each other flips

Ok please show me where he is "struggling to understand me"

You have literally refused to engage on italiano the entire game apart from "aPpEaL to EmOtIon" and just like not talking about any of his actual posting.

[Ausuka]

Yeah I think your take is horseshit

[Ausuka]

Like half the game is either doing nothing for the past few days or spent it on a vote for arko because he didn't post anything and I'm the one not solving when I actually have a push I want to make and a case for it which you have just been incredibly dismissive about

If.italiano flips scum at any point Shirou needs to die 100% of the time

[Ausuka]

And I mean maybe you'll come up with a response that will blow my mind but I'm like 99% sure the "poor little italiano struggling to understand ausuka" thing is just pure made up nonsense

[Ausuka]

Ok please show me where he is "struggling to understand me"

Here:

What do you think town would have done differently there?

No I wasn't actually scumreading Koba

Town does a lot of different things, so who knows, but I would've taken it in stride and kept an eye on them. My point is why ask a question if your vote is a forgone conclusion. To clarify, I'm not saying your vote was, but that's how I perceived it. You asked, I answered, my answers weren't good enough for you, vote.

Ok, so what about that suggests it was a foregone conclusion? Isn't that just contradictory to the idea that your answers weren't good enough?

My perception.

It's such a "Really...?" post, it's a bit contradicting in the way he said it, but I did also feel like you were asking certain things at some points that were meant to publicly signal your next move rather than having the answer make you consider where you stand.

I haven't felt you ever doubted your initial conclusions on Italiano and I do agree at moment with his "perception" that you were always gonna vote him and your interactions with him were only to establish a supposed motive.

Literally I ask him why he believes what he says about me and he just says "oh it's my perception that's the case"

You could say that about literally anything. It's a lazy one liner. It means literally NOTHING. It is not 'struggling to understand' in any possible way. It's a non-response. It's the OPPOSITE of struggling to understand.

[Ausuka]

And like literally what is your problem with asking to clarify about something I'm suspicious of? Obviously a lot of the time it is not going to have a satisfying answer but like I don't instinctively know and understand all context and intention of the post

[Ausuka]

Well semantic discussion aside, do you disagree with my take that you've done a lot of questioning but hasn't given a lot of stances/explaining your stances in the game so far?

Yeah I think your take is horseshit

Why? Saying you're doing more than other slots is pretty fair and I realize it may be incredibly frustrating in that scenario to be pushed if you're town here, however effort ultimately isn't alignment indicative especially for you I think. You put effort in your scum games so Italiano issue aside, how is that not a description of your play here vs most other town games where I saw you be more whimsical about your reads/sharing takes.

maybe because if I'm doing more than other slots that implies I'm not doing nothing and you said I was doing nothing

[Ausuka]

Your argument was surprisingly boring and based on the idea that 180s are scummy. Like, I don't care about Koba's meta, they aren't scummy period.

I don't see why you expect me to engage with your points when you have totally ignored mine the entire time

[Ausuka]

Like I tried to think about you or koba independently but the argument itself just wasn't interesting

[Ausuka]

maybe because if I'm doing more than other slots that implies I'm not doing nothing and you said I was doing nothing

I never said "nothing". Now that's twisting/exaggerating my words. I even recognized you were putting more effort than some other slots.

do you disagree with my take that you've done a lot of questioning but

hasn't given

a lot

of stances/explaining your stances in the game so far?

Also, I said you were doing a lot of something (questioning) but not a lot of something else

That's just nitpicking. It's obvious what the idea of "not solving" implies and I think I've easily solved more than most slots in the game. I'm trying to actually push someone, which you have totally ignored all this time, while half of the game is just not voting.

[Ausuka]

The italiano thing? You didn't respond to anything I said, you just said "town for ate lol"

[Ausuka]

Maybe I should do that too

Koba is town for ate

There I've made a stance

[Ausuka]

Oh most people want to lim italiano? that's news to me considering most people have also refused to vote for him

[Ausuka]

your "elaboration" was completely without depth. It was basically just accusing me of being scum without any substance and therefore Italiano is in the right, without actually substantiating your statement that he is "struggling to understand me" (with a three word dismissive reply)

[Ausuka]

Also the irony of your read on me vs your read on Italiano is pretty palpable.

Despite giving reads, participating and pushing people throughout the game for some reason you don't elaborate on it's not enough and therefore I must be scum.

italiano just says i was always going to vote him, refuses to elaborate when i ask, sorts people in broad strokes by their activity level and then dips and that isn't even worth mentioning or talking about

[Ausuka]

I'm not sure anyone has been as monotone about their read on Italiano as much as you

I think a lot of people second-guessed themselves with their AtE and in general have been interested in more slots rather than just him, but after a brief spat with Ydra, you conclude she's scum but isn't as interested on her as Italiano as far as I can see

One of the big reasons I'm so hesitant about Italiano is that this a large part of this game has revolved around shading/voting him by slots that I'm not comfortable with.

What do you even want at this point? Like I have to townread the ate, or I have to be interested in pushing other slots just as much? Literally why?

[Ausuka]

I don't think you actually believe that an emoji amounts to "struggling to understand" someone in a way that is relevant to reading them

[Ausuka]

Whatever I will dip for now so the thread isn't spammed too much I will respond to anything else you have to say later ^.^

[Ausuka]

Also the irony of your read on me vs your read on Italiano is pretty palpable.

In your own words:

come on the guy just is not here that's different.

But also, you're dismissing his read list as "activity bases sorting" at the same time he has Aisa/Malakittens (not inactive but not that active) as top town reads over me, by far the most active one.

You can say his ISO is bad without trying to dismiss everything he has done, I feel he has pushed a gamesolve including town reads in far less time than you've been here for.

If he was leaning scum on me early I don't see any reason for him to be so vague about his suspicion and shut me down when I was asking why he thought my vote was scum and just repeat "it's my perception" - at the time, he said he was very interested in my vote on him as something that was scummy, but that response of "because I said so" does not make sense if that's the case - just refusing to both show the thought process of his read and get a better read on me through discussion of what happened. I don't see how that makes sense as sorting.

His readslist was also just, like, a list? Looking at the reasoning and thoughts he gave, the activity thing and the early thing about me voting him that he refused to elaborate about is all there is in his entire ISO and he has quite a lot of posts.

[Ausuka]

I am thinking that Ausuka is scum that knows Koba is town.

why

[Ausuka]

Your argument was surprisingly boring and based on the idea that 180s are scummy. Like, I don't care about Koba's meta, they aren't scummy period.

I don't see why you expect me to engage with your points when you have totally ignored mine the entire time

For this post.

Ok but why does saying 180s aren't scummy mean I know koba is town

[Ausuka]

I don't think koba can't be scum. Shirou was making a big deal of "Well, everyone says that doing scummy things is NAI for them, you shouldn't care and you should kill them anyway cos scum say that." But doing a 180 isn't scummy in the first place.

I guess this explanation is believable at least shrug

[Ausuka]

Spoiler:

What do you think town would have done differently there?

No I wasn't actually scumreading Koba

Town does a lot of different things, so who knows, but I would've taken it in stride and kept an eye on them. My point is why ask a question if your vote is a forgone conclusion. To clarify, I'm not saying your vote was, but that's how I perceived it. You asked, I answered, my answers weren't good enough for you, vote.

Ok, so what about that suggests it was a foregone conclusion? Isn't that just contradictory to the idea that your answers weren't good enough?

My perception.

I can kind of understand townreading Italiano's ate but I don't think there's anything substantial from him. His play doesn't really feel like genuine scumhunting to me at all.

I think the most egregious part of his play so far was when I asked about his scumread on my questioning and he tried to play it off as "I'm not saying your read was fake, but my perception was that it is" which is obviously bizarre.

When I asked about it he just repeated that it's his perception without like elaborating on the read. It felt like he was saying something he couldn't back up, and it definitely did not feel like a genuine thought process.

On rereading, I think the bolded makes the original interaction sound worse than it was. Italiano's post seems fairly straightforward, he's saying something like "I got this feeling that you were going to scumread me no matter what I said. I'm not saying you were but that's just what it felt like." I think this is a normal thing to say?

Especially because "you were going to scumread me no matter what" is not particularly nice to say to someone who could be town. It implies that the person could be being irrational, asking pointless questions, so it's natural he wanted to sweeten it by clarifying that's the subjective feeling he felt.

What is bizarre to me is that Italiano did not point this out sooner, he votes Ausuka in his next post but didn't say anything.

On the other hand Italiano's push is certainly unusual ("I got the feeling you were going to scumread me no matter what" is probably not going to be persuasive to anyone other than him) so I wouldn't say it's like, amazingly towny either.

Other than that push the main things he has done is the AtE, making the shit-stirry comment about DGB and like, making broad strokes about activity instead of actually solving. I think there is a lack of genuine scumhunting in his posts and like I have not seen a compelling reason to townread him aorn.

I think the generic point that he hasn't done that much that is obviously towny is valid.

Just worth saying explicitly that Italiano has mentioned it might just be that his playstyle is unusual and he does strike me as a bit of an unconventional player. And that's what's playing in my mind right now; I don't think the slot is conventionally towny but I'm trying to figure out how to adjust to his character.

I mean I don't think it's super straightforward to say "I'm not saying it was but I perceived that it was" and to refuse to clarify afterwards? And more broadly, even if this is true I don't think it changes that his push on me was stretched and like, again, when I asked about it to see if there was a plausible explanation, he wouldn't indicate what about the things I said gave the impression I was always going to vote him. This is the only reason he's given for scumreading me, who is apparently his strongest read in the game by a lot, and I don't think the interaction (or lack of it) really makes sense for town who is trying to sort me

[Ausuka]

My biggest objection to that is that like I think it's not 'wrong' communication but ultimately a refusal to do so which i think shows a lack of interest in my alignment

Also italiano does have a decent chance of flipping town but like it's day 1 and I think basically no wagon can meet the standard of "town could never do this"

pedit: Maybe it's a sign

[Ausuka]

i mean i've been trying to analyse and solve and i think i've done plenty of that. if people don't think it's good enough, shrug, i don't think there's any way to prove otherwise

I have only pushed italiano because -italiano is the only one worth pushing-

Mala hasn't been here all day and ydrasse went all READ BETWEEN THE LINES mode at 2 votes

Nobody else is scummy enough or really all that close, or they're inactives which i don't really want to wagon someone who isn't doing anything because i think it's pretty useless until there's actually enough will to present a threat to them

[Ausuka]

Ok. My point is exactly that I think you're taking a slighly narrow view of what "being interested in your alignment" looks like

I don't think so! I think his post and lack of subsequent elaboration about his strong scumread on me was a pretty clear disinterest

I think it is probably more likely that italiano is town and was uninterested in sorting me vs being interested given what he said and did

[Ausuka]

The guy has like 64 posts there is enough there to push

[Ausuka]

this wagon won't bear fruit so i suggest elsewhere atm
return to it later if you want but not rn

going to reiterate this and hope people think for more than 2 seconds about the implications

YOU DIDNT THINK ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS

[Ausuka]

Not all of us get into tunnels on day 1

[Ausuka]

She can be scummy without me wanting to push an obvious soft on day 1???

[Ausuka]

Shea tells me to tell you to 'fuck off and let us cook'

Perhaps you will understand this message from him in some way

[Ausuka]

because scummy means she has a >rand chance to be scum not that she is confirmed scum

[Ausuka]

Shea says paraphrased that he thinks you're reaction testing and it's very unhelpful

I think if you are reaction testing it would be a bit silly and pointlessly tilting but what does silly me who can't even think about the game know

[Ausuka]

Also like, if you think Italiano is scum, and I "100%" need to die if Italiano flips scum, don't you think you're being a bit soft on how you treat me?

I don't feel you're approaching me as the evil italiano scum buddy that wants to proxy protect him by limming you, I feel you're mostly approaching me as wrong town

I do appreciate being treated as town in fact, but it does contradict a bit what seemed to be your worldview here

I think you are probably town but if italiano is scum you need to die at some point for your treatment of him this game day

I think there is a limit to how much pro-scum action towns should tolerate, generally

[Ausuka]

Should I go through all of my scum games and find things in common with what you did here

[Ausuka]

but what does silly me

who can't even think about the game know

do you mean it sarcastically or are you mean it unironically right now?

I interpreted it as sarcasm but just to confirm

You said you don't think town ausuka would think about the game and who to push...

[Ausuka]

but what does silly me

who can't even think about the game know

do you mean it sarcastically or are you mean it unironically right now?

I interpreted it as sarcasm but just to confirm

You said you don't think town ausuka would think about the game and who to push...

Ok maybe you really are scum Ausuka.

What I meant was that you wouldn't think how "effective" the pressure was too much compared to just voting people and seeing where that goes:

as the kind of player to go "who and what is the most effective way to pressure in this gamestate" rather than a more free/whimsical "welp you look like scum (vote)"

I think interpreting the above as me saying town!you doesn't think about the game is...rude Ausuka, and I never meant to be rude to you.

It may as well be confbias at this point however I don't think that's what most people would interpret in the above either. Someone sanity check me.

All I really meant is that I feel town!you enjoys directly taking actions more than pondering about exactly how theoretically effective a push on X person could be to generate content or so in a given gamestate. I myself do subscribe to this "just vote/push scummy people" philosophy and I don't think it's because "I don't think about the game"

Sorry if i misinterpreted what you were trying to say

I didn't think you were calling me like totally stupid but I thought it was rather silly to imply I wouldn't think about things like, it's probably better to push someone who has posts I can concretely scumread vs someone who was vaguely scummy early on and then disappeared?

[Ausuka]

Spoiler: refer back to later

I don't have any super confident townreads in this game. The closest thing I can say is that I think Koba, Xofelf and Kowahbungah are probably town right now and I think that for like d2 or d3 they are bad places to look. Kowah is the only one of those who has come under pressure, and I think I talked about him when he happened, but his pushes on koba and shirou feel genuine, and since they are such tough targets I would be very impressed if he pulled it off so smoothly as mafia.

I think DGB and aisa on my wagon are more likely to be town than not. DGB is weird because she's been really lethargic all game, but I think it's probably just a stylistic thing? At least I don't really have any issue accepting she believes what she says. Aisa is a bit weird because earlier I felt like it was possible she was like staying above the fray and on the fence, and recently I felt like she was trying to make opportunity to jump on the wagon of either me or Italiano, whichever way the wind ends up blowing. I still think that's possible, and it's worth being cautious of Aisa and not town-locking her, but those ideas of her scumplay are kinda contradictory and if she's scum her analysis posts are very well done

Shirou is a special case because i'm like annoyed and biased. I do think that he sounds genuine enough with what he says, and it *feels* like he should just be very stubborn, but I have definitely felt at times that he is doing the best he can to paint me in a bad light and try and bury me in a sheer quantity of accusations without any concern for their quality. I wouldn't really have expected this behaviour. I think for a player like him you might have to judge him based on other flips and how much their actions have benefited or harm the town throughout the game. And definitely do NOT follow him in the future, I will be watching and if you do I will be extremely disappointed.

Deasvail is like a really difficult one to read for me? Most of the things he says seem at least, like, Reasonable, and i'm a fan of his reads on ydrasse and italiano. But if there is any scum in my hood it's likely to be him over xofelf or koba I think - to be clear I don't think that's a guarantee.

There are a couple of people like, uh, Arko and mastina who haven't done anything and I don't have a lot to say

Ydrasse, I mean obviously you have the soft and it's hard to talk about that before it resolves. I think her treatment of me was pretty scummy throughout, I still don't really believe the thought about accusing me of pocketing or asking the really leading question like "why are you tense" were genuine. The arko push does sort of baffle me and it's probably good to make her elaborate on what she was doing throughout the game - I'm not like comfortable saying YDRASSE IS DEFO SCUM but i think she's a suspect and it's good to keep that in mind.

Malakittens is uh, I thought she was scummy early. I think for some reason drunkposting is something I've seen come from scum more often. Of the less-active players she's probably the one I like the least, so it's good to give her attention at some point, but hopefully she'll make more readable content on future days.

I think I've talked about italiano enough and he should at least be the starting point for d2

[Ausuka]

No. You asked me about DGB and why I said what I said about her. Then I answered. Then you voted. THEN the talk about perception happened, where I said I perceived that your vote on me was a forgone conclusion given the weak question you asked me and lack of care/understanding or even more clarification issued upon my answer.

Please quote to me where you say this because I am pretty sure you totally refused to elaborate on the accusation when I asked

[Ausuka]

I am a little less sure italiano is scum and a little less sure DGB is town

[Ausuka]

Also the question to Mala kind of was a question just to question because she totally dropped off the face of the earth alongside several people and I wanted to ping her and give her something to respond to

I think I did the same thing with arko

[Ausuka]

Why do you think that is really? You think everyone is my scum partner?

No? People can do nothing and be town

[Ausuka]

most of my experience with shirou was a long time ago. Shea told me he was 'theatrical' and he was reaction testing because that's how he plays. I can't say i got that impression either

[Ausuka]

No. You asked me about DGB and why I said what I said about her. Then I answered. Then you voted. THEN the talk about perception happened, where I said I perceived that your vote on me was a forgone conclusion given the weak question you asked me and lack of care/understanding or even more clarification issued upon my answer.

Please quote to me where you say this because I am pretty sure you totally refused to elaborate on the accusation when I asked

Spoiler:

What do you think town would have done differently there?

No I wasn't actually scumreading Koba

Town does a lot of different things, so who knows, but I would've taken it in stride and kept an eye on them. My point is why ask a question if your vote is a forgone conclusion. To clarify, I'm not saying your vote was, but that's how I perceived it. You asked, I answered, my answers weren't good enough for you, vote.

Ok, so what about that suggests it was a foregone conclusion? Isn't that just contradictory to the idea that your answers weren't good enough?

My perception.

I'm not sure how you think that this response with 2 words shows that you elaborated. That was a refusal to elaborate and you continued not to talk about your read on me even when you started to vote me.

You call it weak, but it's something many other people were suspicious of as well. My crime according to you was to bother asking first to check if I understood the situation?

Also the question to Mala kind of was a question just to question because she totally dropped off the face of the earth alongside several people and I wanted to ping her and give her something to respond to

I think I did the same thing with arko

This is why I feel your dishonest, because you want the fairness of the benefit of the doubt, but refuse(d) to give it to me. You literally said you scumread me because I wasn't doing much or just doing stuff but not having substance. This is anti-town at best and straight up scum at worse.

That's not anti-town at all. It's pro-town, actually. Questions aren't some limited resource you have to be frugal with in case they run out. The issue I had with you isn't that you posted a readslist without reasoning, or sorted people by activity, but it's that stuff like that was most of what you said. In particular my biggest concern was that, despite voting me and calling your read on me the strongest read you had, even stronger than any townreads (which is highly unusual for day 1) you didn't talk about it much beyond a naked vote and refused to elaborate about the read when asked. I don't think it's wrong to expect that from a town!italiano mindset, pushing me then would have been the greatest priority.

Why do you think that is really? You think everyone is my scum partner?

No? People can do nothing and be town

Apparently according to you people can do nothing and be scum. So why were you not giving me this same sense of fairness you seem to want to have for yourself and others? This is what I felt about you then and your responses now are proving to me that I was right to feel the way I did.

Yeah, people can do nothing and be scum, that's also true! I scumread you because you did have content and I didn't like it. It's a different situation.

[Ausuka]

Even if I was somehow wrong about Ausuka alignment here I do not think I would be wrong to say that for example she has played more similarly here to her last completed scum game than her somewhat recent town games, or that she questioned others more than contributed with arguments about slots/gamesolving herself (which I think statically is also more likely to come from scum in general save some exceptions).

So even if I'm town you did nothing wrong

Ok well why don't you elaborate on why exactly you are so confident in this meta read

[Ausuka]

I am a bit concerned that none of Ausuka's teammates are really invested into this game, since it feels like an easy sort of game to analyze for some of her teammates but the content from her is good and I'm pretty sure shirou is working backwards via pre-flipping me- as there if you read a bit closely you can see the difference in how critical shirou is on italiano and on ausuka. a lot more forgiving for things italiano does, because dkkoba is pushing them. a lot more critical of what ausuka does because dkkoba is defending them. this is why i made the "playing checkers" comment earlier because that is how obvious and telegraphed the real reasoning is, and why I initially pushed on shirou - because I saw this kind of 1 dimensional shallow logic being dressed up which is typically a scum trait.

I agree that the double standard is there but like it seems more likely that either shirou just decided to push me as scum, or it's an ego thing where he believes he can't be wrong

[Ausuka]

Ok well why don't you elaborate on why exactly you are so confident in this meta read

It's not solely a meta read but me reading your meta made me think there's also potentially a meta argument to be made and it already has been made because most of the behavior I consider scummy in you here was present in that game. I don't put that much stock into meta, but I was giving an example of something I think is factually right in any scenario.

I would be repeating myself if I proceeded to explain myself again...

No you wouldn't...

[Ausuka]

actions speak louder than words

[Ausuka]

Refusal is a strong word. I can see if I literally said "I'm done engaging with you', but you asked me "Ok, so what about that suggests it was a forgone conclusion?" I responded with "my perception", meaning I perceived it to be that way in which I later told you why it felt like scum and not like town.

I still really don't understand this? Like, if you asked someone why they scumread something, and they answered "My perception " how would you react to that? It doesn't say anything about why you thought that way, it just seems like a reworded version of "That's what I think because that's what I think." This is my main hangup on my read of you - I don't see how, even if it was a town genuine thing, you don't at least see where I'm coming from here.

From what I remember seeing while it was happening live and upon my lookback is that I was suspicious early on for saying what I said about DGB. That's the reason you even engaged with me in the first place and now you're trying to paint this picture that it was other reasons. And no, that is not the crime you are being accused of. Checking to understand the situation is fine in a vacuum. The reaction/response is the crime for me, which I've said multiple times already.

It's the same thing? Yeah, I thought you were suspicious for the DGB comment. I wanted to ask for context because sometimes I do misunderstand things. It's true that I was always going to vote for you if I wasn't misunderstanding anything, but how is that the same as the question being pointless?

Shows that you didn't read all of my posts to get an idea of where my head was because I very much said and did more than just post a readslist.

I said things like that for a reason - I'm aware you did more than that, but like most of it felt similar to me

I will admit from posts 1-173 I was still trying to get a feel for the game so majority is in fact fluff with maybe a sprinkle or two of actual substance, maybe not depending on who you ask lol.

My first catchup and second catchup and from posts 305 to when I posted my readslist in 576 and then from 867 - 891 is full of game advancing posts, thoughts going on in my head, reads, why I feel the way I do or do what I do, questions to those scumreading my townreads, questions to townreads regarding potential scum, etc. For anyone to say I was doing nothing here is just scum because even if a townie hates me, they eventually have to play to the wincon and admit the truth. If someone wanted to use 1-173 as a case for someone being scum then so be it, do your thing, but these sections outdo/outdid all of what my scumreads were doing/saying at that point. I don't like flexing, I seriously don't, but I feel it's needed here because of the ridiculous notion I haven't been doing anything this game. The evidence shows this to be contrary, because even when I wasn't "doing anything" that was early game and

If you are town you are dead wrong, but if you're scum then everything makes sense.

You weren't doing nothing, and if I said that it was an exaggeration and that's bad of me. You posted game related content, but I don't think it was game advancing content for the most part. I think discussion about the AtE has been done to death but personally I don't think it's difficult to fake. I think broad-strokes sorting people by activity, even if it's not meant to be the primary point you read people from, still feels like posting for the sake of it. Stuff like the readslist and posting +1 to DGB's reads - like just saying 'these people are town, these people are scum' without elaboration - a lot of these things aren't inherently bad or scummy, but like, I think there is an absence of meat here. And like, the fact that I was your only strong read in 576 - and a scumread at that - to me indicates town Italiano is likely to discuss me more, try and respond to what I'm saying and/or try to push me and get a wagon on me going, rather than just naked voting.

Your posts after coming back were better and I don't think I claimed otherwise, and that's why I said I was less confident about you afterwards. I don't really townread your posts that much - I think most of it is cheerleading shirou and/or defending yourself in a way I don't find all that town-indicative, but like I don't expect that town Italiano wouldn't be doing either of these things.

Ausuka, say you're town and fypov I am town and let's go with the premise that I have scum on my wagon or in the group of people who are suspicious of me, who do you think is the most likely for it to be?

It's tricky to say because I don't have a clear-cut list of 'people who suspect Italiano' in my head, a lot of people are in the middle where they say you're vaguely suspicious but don't want to vote for you. Your wagon rn is me, koba and DV. I wasn't a big fan of DV's read on kowahbungah, for reasons I might have explained here but also might have explained in the hood instead? Basically it was that I don't think most newer players are all that likely to think hard about how to achieve lims rather than just calling out people who are scummy, and Kowah felt sort of limbait-y at the time so I was skeptical of that push.

[Ausuka]

I don't have much to say about arko tbh

At this point in the day wagoning him is fine and he probably has a slightly >rand chance of flipping scum?

[Ausuka]

We ate snacks and had a pillow fight and you're NOT invited

[Ausuka]

I somewhat disagree about limming inactives always being bad for town? In this case he probably will get replaced and it's not far from random but idk generally I like the fact that there is something to disincentivise mafia from doing nothing. Especially in this game where, no offense but there are quite a few slots who are difficult to read for not having done a whole lot.

I probably won't vote for arko unless we get closer to deadline and there are no better options because like he probably will indeed get replaced

[Ausuka]

That was before you started bullying me

[Ausuka]

Koba why is dgb so high

[Ausuka]

Koba why is dgb so high

because dgb is an easy read, skill issue

wow thanks very helpful

personally I think it looked pretty bad when she called me scum with a reason and when i explained the incorrect interpretation *then* she voted me as a 'sheep'. it looked like a blatantly unnatural interaction trying to hide behind shirou. Datisi also called dgb scum for this if you will take that seriously. what about her meta makes that so towny

[Ausuka]

(I will respond to italiano later)

[Ausuka]

Ok well what if you die and then DGB is town and I and maybe other people are suspicious of her

Are you not worried about that

[Ausuka]

i know that arko is a "low info" slot by virtue of his posts but it's kind of fascinating that the ausuka wagon pops up and then we have the arko one like, competing with it like this and then the italiano one is kind of there (and disintegrates a little bit because dv leaves the wagon)

Fascinating is a fascinating word to use here but I'm not sure what you're trying to say?

[Ausuka]

But I worry they've been leaning their meta a bit to avoid giving reads.

Ok so where does this happen

[Ausuka]

Refusal is a strong word. I can see if I literally said "I'm done engaging with you', but you asked me "Ok, so what about that suggests it was a forgone conclusion?" I responded with "my perception", meaning I perceived it to be that way in which I later told you why it felt like scum and not like town.

I still really don't understand this? Like, if you asked someone why they scumread something, and they answered "My perception " how would you react to that? It doesn't say anything about why you thought that way, it just seems like a reworded version of "That's what I think because that's what I think." This is my main hangup on my read of you - I don't see how, even if it was a town genuine thing, you don't at least see where I'm coming from here.

But in the previous interaction, I told you that I felt you were just asking the questions just to ask them to look busy. THAT was my answer to your question. I don't know how else to say. You asked me why I felt you were scummy, and I gave you an answer, then you reworded pretty much the same question you previously asked me, so I reiterated that it was my perception. If you're town I'm really sorry that we are not connecting mentally here. I honestly don't know how to else say what I've already said.

I mean, just like explaining why you think it's scummy instead of just saying "this is what I find scummy" - that's what I was asking? Like, *why* would asking a sensible question about a concern a lot of people have just be busywork?

From what I remember seeing while it was happening live and upon my lookback is that I was suspicious early on for saying what I said about DGB. That's the reason you even engaged with me in the first place and now you're trying to paint this picture that it was other reasons. And no, that is not the crime you are being accused of. Checking to understand the situation is fine in a vacuum. The reaction/response is the crime for me, which I've said multiple times already.

It's the same thing? Yeah, I thought you were suspicious for the DGB comment. I wanted to ask for context because sometimes I do misunderstand things. It's true that I was always going to vote for you if I wasn't misunderstanding anything, but how is that the same as the question being pointless?

If I said the question was pointless, it's not what I meant and I was just probably in the heat of moment. The question was not a problem for me. Questions are never a problem for me because I can answer them as best I can and as genuine and honest as I can, but fmpov if I do that and still get scumread for it and get voted on, then in my mind, I'm thinking 1) Why did they ask me this, what was the agenda or goal and 2) I answered truthfully and as best I could and that wasn't good enough for them.

Should I immediately go to that person being scum. Eh maybe, maybe not, but in my experience that is how I've caught scum before, but I do understand the situation is nuanced. Shrug.

I'm sort of struggling to understand what you're saying here? It might be a me problem, but like, isn't it sort of usual for town to scumread you according to what you've said about yourself? And like, I think I'd understand better if it was a normal early-game sort of scumread, but you called your read strong which is difficult to reconcile with this to me.

I think that we've had a clash of playstyles possibly. I haven't played with you before and you haven't played with me before. This is how I play, it's unorthodox and it's unconventional and even a little weird and think that's why I always get scumread. I'm seeing that maybe you need more progression from players instead of just naked votes, naked readslist, as well as reasons for why they feel the way they do. Honestly I thought I was giving that to you and others so far, but I guess I gotta go deeper; always room to grow and get better.

I should probably look in your games in more depth. I spectated a game with you in it (mini normal 2271) and was tr'ing you in that so initially I kinda disregarded the meta stuff but it was quite a long time ago now and I don't uh actually remember why or how I read you so like yeah I should effort at that more

Anyway I'm starting to feel a lot better about your slot Ausuka. As I said I think not having played with each before I'm guessing there is a leraning curve here. This interaction was good for me, not sure if it was for you, but I am feeling a lot better about this and maybe I was just wrong and caught up in the moment.

My read on you is more neutral. I'm probably gonna like check your game history and try to guess your alignment in games without looking at spoilers to test how true it is that I need experience to read you

[Ausuka]

They don't explicitly appeal to their meta anywhere I don't think
I mean that in general you'd aim to at least reproduce your town meta as scum, and if you happened to be a bit indecisive or slow to form reads you might... lean into that a bit

Sorry but i'm still not really getting this. What is your read on arko exactly? It kind of looked like you wrote a post that would defend him and the last line felt a bit, uh, tacked-on; is the explanation for arko not posting anything that anyone would townread and about to get replaced really a purposeful attempt to replicate his town meta in your eyes?

[Ausuka]

Hey shirou bestie are you in a hood with arko

[Ausuka]

Wait should I be calling shirou my worstie

[Ausuka]

i know that arko is a "low info" slot by virtue of his posts but it's kind of fascinating that the ausuka wagon pops up and then we have the arko one like, competing with it like this and then the italiano one is kind of there (and disintegrates a little bit because dv leaves the wagon)

Fascinating is a fascinating word to use here but I'm not sure what you're trying to say?

i've been trying to word this properly for a moment but fascinating is the best word that comes to mind because i feel like this is the first point in the game that there's an actual choice to make between wagons rather than just throwing a vote down on a 2-person one and then nothing happens

for you i'm going off of 864 because it has direct reference to your reads and the people voting you but from your pov as i understand it you seem fairly lukewarm on most of the people voting arko rn or no stance, including on arko himself. does like a wagon suddenly popping up to oppose yours (assuming youre town) help strengthen your read on any of these people?

for me i feel as if that wagon is the "stronger" one in that i've had or had (!) townreads on everyone on it thus far but i've also thought that arko was sounding a little towny at some point, but i'm still inclined to join it because of the people on it and my arko read being tonal more than anything (also i think it was DV who made a good point? about his reads looking like they're based on just vcs more than him thinking about the game). the only other thing is that i know that it is not the preferred one for some ppl because arko may not be with us much longer but >_>

I don't think it does. I don't view the arko wagon as being motivated to oppose mine - I think people want to kill arko because they think arko is sus or because he's a target which is easy to justify. Shea yelled at me a bit in the team discord when I said this but I don't really believe in doing this sort of thing with wagons? In particular like... I think my reads are >rand but I'm not so confident in them that I would use my other reads to read someone, outside extraordinary circumstances. And I don't think there would be an issue for scum to jump on arko even while I'm being voted.

The arko wagon is just meh to me. I get it? I'm not excited about it. I would prefer to just let that slot get replaced I guess.

[Ausuka]

hot take

VOTE: Drippinggoofball

This is our best chance of limming scum today. she's also an inactive, her interaction with my wagon was awful, and she comes to conclusions like 'locktowning' shirou and confidently stating Italiano is town without much if any analysis while also arguing that doing so is scum behaviour

[Ausuka]

and the shirou thing about "RESOLIVNG AUSUKA AND ITALIANO" makes me immensely uncomfortable

I don't even know how i'm reading shirou at this point

[Ausuka]

shrug i agree that it's kinda weird

[Ausuka]

That's probably not a satisfying response

The issue is my view of italiano is gray and murky. I was scumreading him for most of the game for similar things, for ignoring me and seeming to not engage in ways i would expect town to, and most people have been shitting on that. I kind of wonder if it is his meta but I haven't got around to metadiving him yet, his response in me seemed actually somewhat interested in understanding me, and as i said the shirou thing about 'resolving our slots' really ticked me off

[Ausuka]

like there’s a difference btwn not acting how you expect town to normally and being the equivalent of that tuxedo mask gif

I mean as I said, he's not engaging with you in the way you'd expect town to. I don't think that's a wrong description of that situation

I see where you're coming from and I still need to think more about the italiano situation, but the way most people were treating or ignoring my push does kinda make me wonder if it is indeed like normal behaviour for him or something

Tbh I did read one of his towngames and it felt like he was like pushing and engaging with his scumread more than is the case here so i could be overthinking it? I'm interested in seeing where he votes now

[Ausuka]

shirou read my posts challenge (impossible)

[Ausuka]

Ok so I was doing the italiano meta thing and I ask my discord for help and Shea writes a 2000 word essay about it?? Which I promise I didn't force him to do that.

But uh since I'm not allowed to copy and paste that into the thread I am going to have to try and go through it and give both my opinion and his.

Newbie 2096

This game was pretty short and he replaced out on d1 so I just kind of skipped this even though it's a scum game. Shea notes that his tone is light-hearted and he does not do much scumhunting early. He says something along the lines of, 'He looks like he's putting effort into the game but not into scumhunting' and that he says he has scumreads but doesn't do much to pressure them

Newbie 2093

This is the towngame I was referring to earlier. Italiano is mostly serious early, and makes a push on Takemikazuchi which is pretty strong, not half-hearted, etc - I don't think it really resembles this game that much, and I think in this game i would have townread italiano. To be fair, he does say something along the lines of 'I'm town and you don't see that because you haven't played with me enough which is similar to this, and he does get run up in this game and forced to claim tracker. Shea says that he's extremely dismissive in this game, which matches with his style of play here vs the other game where he was more light-hearted, although that was very short. So in this one there are points for and against scum Italiano.

Newbie 2069

This is another case of Italiano replacing out day 1 as scum but whatever Shea did this one and so will I. He gets into hot water early in this one as well, so it seems like he does kinda just get sussed as both alignments. I think he kind of struggles for motivation afterwards as opposed to the towngame where he's more fiery and pushes Take a lot. He also doesn't really push anyone in this game which is a similarity to this one.

Shea says he overexplains himself a lot in this one. I don't really think he does? But he agrees with me about the lack of pushes/followup.

Mini Normal 2271

In this game he's a lot more proactive about how he pushes koopa (koba) early, basically accusing them of handing out townreads way too easily and actively sorting malakittens - I think I would be townreading italiano in this game yet again, and that's kind of concerning to me because I kind of thought the opposite might happen based on what Italiano was saying in this thread. His takes against koopa and HEM are very hot and he's pretty active with his reasoning etc, like how kowahbungah is playing this game. He's even right about hem, although koopa was indeed town. Just in general I think his play is towny in this one and I even have a memory of thinking similar during the game so it isn't even flip bias!
Shea makes the main point here that he's all about pushing people in this game and less of the stuff about explaining himself, and that he goes into a lot more depth in his thoughts here vs other games.

Mini 2213

This one is super important because it's a scumgame where he does not replace out on d1, but actually survives to endgame.

He does the "I'm so scummy as town uwu" thing as scum too. He definitely has content here but it feels, like, uh, indirect? Not that scumhunty. I think his treatment of ssbm_kyouko in the early game is, like, sort of similar to his treatment of me in this game, only really voting/pushing in retaliation to a push which is painted as 'flawed'. The 'plain readslist without reasons' thing is only done in this game and our game but like that might just be a coincidence lol. I think I would contrast that like, while town Italiano feels offensive this feels more defensive? Shea says something along the lines of, "He is only really convicted with his reads when he is bussing." In this game he has a bit more of the, like, looking-down attitude? Condescending is probably too harsh but you know what I mean. Also town fakes a guilty and then gets limmed for it and that's how lose the game.

All this is to say; don't fake a guilty please. That's it, that's the lesson of this post. You're welcome

No just kidding please don't stop reading

This game

This part will mostly be Shea since I've commented on italiano quite a bit

Shea scumreads 466 because it's exactly what he said in another scumgame and he thinks italiano doesn't enjoy playing scum

496 is given as an example of him elaborating and writing longer posts in his own defense which is absent in his town-games. I think i agree

He's struggling to push people, other than me which is in self defense (and similar to the kyouko push in his longest scumgame) -> I think this is true overall. I was pushing italiano really hard during the middle of the day when activity was low, but I think i've mostly leaned off of him since then, and he's also leaned off me. But I don't think he's done much afterwards, in terms of specifically pushing - his bottom read is me and his next bottom read is DV who was pushing him too. This kind of echoes the concern I had earlier - the way Italiano was acting with pushing me, but kind of not pushing me actively, and I think it's backed up by the meta at this point, not contradicting it

Anyway uh both Shea and I come out thinking the worse of italiano after the metadive and I think he is probably just scum actually sorry

VOTE: ItalianoVD

[Ausuka]

if ur going to kill me don't do it overnight while I'm asleep, I have some things i would want to say in that case

there will be enough time for someone to come on if necessary

[Ausuka]

It may be a confbias by this point but I think it's a bit funny that Shea is putting a lot of effort into this game like that because he never did meta dive as town in our last game. He also

loves

playing scum.

Shea predicted you would post almost exactly this ^.^

[Ausuka]

Please make note of this pattern after I flip of shirou literally never engaging with the content of what I say and trying to find something to shitpush instead

[Ausuka]

Like the options are literally

1) his ego is too big to consider that he could be wrong

or

2) he's scum.

He says option 2 is correct but you can decide for yourselves

[Ausuka]

1) his ego is too big to consider that he could be wrong

HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS

DO YOU THINK I'M NOT SCARED OF KOBA BEING SMUG TO TALK TRASH ABOUT ME IN D2 REGARDLESS OF HIS ALIGNMENT

IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING AT STAKE HERE

I want to lim you for in-game reasons but I'm afraid of it for non-game reasons

I've said so many times, and acted so many times with hesitance towards you.

How is this a real thought.

Hmm I wonder

maybe because i posted that big wall that i spent a long time working on and you didn't even fucking read it or react to it

Or I made that other post with my reads, which you didn't respond to

or uhh, basically any of the content i have posted

Instead you spend your time writing excellent points like "why would ausuka vote dgb here"

[Ausuka]

Like if I believe you ok great you're scum that's fine and cool

[Ausuka]

I'm not living to endgame at this point I don't care. I am even-night compulsive fruit vendor neighbour, I've claimed this in the hood so there's a good chance scum know it anyway. Nothing of any value is lost if I am killed and I'm sure I will be at some point, so maybe work on the fact you have most of the playlist in your nullreads instead of whatever you're doing right now

[Ausuka]

Yes I think dgb is scum and I think you're either scum or a honorary scum player

[Ausuka]

I'm not interacting with shirou more than this I'm going to get angry

Have fun you guys

[Ausuka]

One last thing before I go, shea says he metadived aristeia and caught her as scum that way in his last game with shirou

[Ausuka]

Bestie Ausuka, or maybe you consider me Worstie now, if you give me two scumreads other than my own, but I lim/vote you today, if I sheep you for the remaining two days am I forgiven in post-game if you're town?

I would forgive you anyway? It's not that I'm mad at you for scumreading me, I'm frustrated about how you chose to go about it. I would probably be frustrated as scum too. I'm not going to be more angry if you vote for me because if you think I'm scum it makes sense to do that instead of voting for italiano.

And you don't have to sheep me, I don't think I even want you to because it's difficult for others to read that and my reads aren't that good. Read normally, but please just like don't drown the thread with your pushes and like regularly engage with the idea that the other player is town and think about what they have to say, and read all the posts and try not to confbias so hard. I think if you are town here, consciously you are definitely aware of the fact you could be wrong, because it doesn't actually make sense otherwise, but on some level you are behaving in a way as if that's not the case. Maybe it's force of habit or something.

My reads should be pretty clear at this point but I can say them again if people care for that.

[Ausuka]

I have been suspicious of malakittens in the past but obviously I can't read this too much because I have no idea what the hood said

[Ausuka]

i feel like people are underestimating how much time 36 hours is

Ok actually maybe they have a point given that this game is the way that it is, but if we really want to it's not that urgent

[Ausuka]

Anyway, I said I was gonna sheep Shirou so.

VOTE: Italiano

this really makes you think

[Ausuka]

(i laughed irl ty)

[Ausuka]

Yeah idk I think shea just went through the most recent games on your profile and when he was done I just did the same ones he did

Shea is thestatusquo. From what he said I don't think he has played with you, but came to that conclusion based on what you posted. I kind of had the same view based on what I saw

[Ausuka]

i think that's e-2

[Ausuka]

i can give you some chocolate?

I do have a question actually what was with the shirou thing

Pre-warning it is not super likely to change my mind so if you choose to answer don't blame me afterwards :angy:

Update: shea has told me italiano has a 7.69/10 chance of flipping scum. This is so specific I assume he reached this with some scientific method

[Ausuka]

the sheeping thingy

[Ausuka]

ok that did not change my mind sadly but thank you for your time I will try and send a donut to italy at some point and hope you get it

[Ausuka]

if you're not italian that's just your fault for false advertising

[Ausuka]

I am the devil on your shoulder. Random.org the readslist

[Ausuka]

ok that did not change my mind sadly but thank you for your time

Wait, wait no, ask me again.

What's your favourite pizza

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Drippinggoofball

I think this is the best vote. I think her interaction with my wagon was the worst out of anyone - I don't really think shirou is scum.at this point. I also think she has done nothing town indicative this entire game and her play is extremely compatible with someone who 'hates playing as scum'

I'm not really interested in defending myself; it's just going to drag things out into long pointless arguments and I'm going to die at some point anyway. If you want to kill me go ahead.

[Ausuka]

Why can't malakittens be a mafia odd night fruit vendor

[Ausuka]

(or me the inverse ig)

I don't think she's lying about being a fruit vendor because it's very silly to lie about being a fruit vendor but like i don't think that is all that alignment-indicative?

[Ausuka]

i feel obligated to try and sort through the koba/shirou/ausuka trio because i feel like they're eating up a lot of this game's bandwidth but it's a tiresome task to even start so like, wave hand at the ausuka wagon. if you're town please defend yourself but i get why you wouldn't want to and if you die and you're town thank you for your service but i can't make heads or tails of that knot of posters. i guess this is like, me asking you three to explain what is... going on there or what you think in a more concise place because i dont have the brainpower lately to read through that many posts

ill do the vcs later for more guidance but this is about as much as i have in mind for this game atm

im not really sure if you want me to post more or post less

koba was calling me scum in the pt and calling me town in the thread for some reason whatever idc atp

shirou has been tunneling me since forever because i asked questions a lot or something

what are their alignments? you decide. i think they are more likely to both be town but shrug

[Ausuka]

The hood situation is like, I figured out it was either aisa or kowahbungah. I don't think it would be difficult for mafia to do the same and probably they have someone in that hood anyway. Although it's not confirmed, there's a decent probability they knew it was aisa from the start if they have 1 member in each group. On top of all that, aisa isn't even a bad kill regardless of the hood situation. I don't really see how people read into it

[Ausuka]

I don't think shirou's thing about not reading my post where I revealed the hood was faked

I think shirou is town or scum with like... DV probably? I'm townleaning DV but I townread xofelf more and koba and shirou on a team doesn't really feel right

The easiest explanation is shirou is just town I guess.

I townread mastina more and kowahbungah less from the d2 posts so far

[Ausuka]

my instinct is that most scum players would be hesitant to do anything to try and 'save' freedom unless he has a powerful PR

that being said like, freedom unfortunately has about as much content as arko did so far and we're well into the game now so i'm a lot more happy with a wagon there and could maybe even join it if people really townread dgb so much

[Ausuka]

I would like to hear more people's thoughts on dgb btw

[Ausuka]

To repeat my thoughts; i didn't like DGB's movement around my wagon. Her reason for scumreading was that I said koba 'wasn't scummy at all' - I explained this was a misunderstanding of what I said and then she voted me as just a sheep vote. It felt like she wanted to vote me and her reasoning in the first place was just an excuse to get to that conclusion. And like, it seems weird that she views such statements of confidence about strong players as scummy when she called shirou 'locktown.' I think the aisa thing is p easy to fake as scum and I don't townread the feysal thing that much but I do at least appreciate reasons being given

Btw, re:meta, am I missing something? I feel like people are townreading her based on meta but she hasn't played for years, does she have an alt or something?

[Ausuka]

That being said I think sometimes it is an important skill to know when to give up

VOTE: Freedom

pls explain your DV read and any other reads you have

[Ausuka]

I don't think i've done this yet so

I don't think {DV, koba, mastina, shirou, xofelf} are scum rn - I'm not like super hard townreading everyone in this group but I can't see myself going after any of them in the foreseeable future

{Kowahbungah, ydrasse} I am definitely thinking deserve an eye out but I wouldn't really say I'm actively wanting to go after them at this stage

{Dgb, freedom, mala} I think i want to take a look at - I don't think this is *exactly the scumteam* but i think there are 1-2 in this group and would ideally like the people who get pressured alongside me today or tomorrow

[Ausuka]

It's ok I still like you I am just maybe a bit too defensive and not very good at hiding when I feel frustrated

Anyway I'm tempted to just write off dgb as town and blame all the dgb meta knowers if she's scum here tbh

[Ausuka]

I am kinda curious who you think scum is here if it's not me or.freedom or dgb tho

[Ausuka]

I guess probably mala?

[Ausuka]

rip i should have listened to shea

[Ausuka]

my smol brain hurts

[Ausuka]

Shea also thought dgb was scum! Although he said he didn't remember much about her meta

[Ausuka]

Shea also thought dgb was scum! Although he said he didn't remember much about her meta

Ok this is maybe sort of misleading? I asked him to iso them and he said that there was nothing towny in their iso and he didn't like how they were ok with all the wagons but it's not like a read he has been passionately advocating for

Similarly MT said something along the lines of "dgb is scummy but I always think that"

[Ausuka]

i mean i didnt pick up that mala was 'counter claiming' me? i wouldn't have thought that was really possible anyway since my role is provable and also not really worth fakeclaiming because it's not that towny

[Ausuka]

mastina is ur claim just town rolecop?

[Ausuka]

That being said I think sometimes it is an important skill to know when to give up

VOTE: Freedom

pls explain your DV read and any other reads you have

My DV read is based of the timing of his unvotes.
Like he votes me in 1316 but immediately after I post my thoughts on Shirou's theory, he unvotes.

This happened after you voted DV? Also what's the problem with his rationale for unvoting there

[Ausuka]

I think it's pikachu

[Ausuka]

I rotated my brain cells a bit and my conclusion is that Mastina is like ~probably?~ town but would still like her to like claim properly

Since I claimed already I hope there's no harm in me saying that mala would be a pretty likely town roleblocking target

[Ausuka]

Kowahs D2 posts have been pretty awful tbh

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Kowahbungah

I will side with the enemy.this time but Freedom pls still talk about the things I wanted you to talk about I haven't forgotten

Kowah what do you think about DV's reasoning over Mastina? Independently of.the role claim what are your reads now

[Ausuka]

Ausuka hinted that there was more to your role than you were letting on

I would be significantly less inclined to believe her claim if it didn't have any modifiers

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Kowahbungah

I will side with the enemy.this time but Freedom pls still talk about the things I wanted you to talk about I haven't forgotten

Kowah what do you think about DV's reasoning over Mastina? Independently of.the role claim what are your reads now

I felt compelled by Ydrasse's case on Mastina. I voted there. I feel less confident now that I see Koba joined the wagon. I'm happy to be here for now though because the case felt genuine.

I guess i'd like to hear your thoughts beyond this

Like - mala confirmed mastina has a loud modifier, which kind of affects the part of the case that hinged on a simple rolecop being strange. If mastina is a roleblocker, she will have to fake future rolecop results because Loud Rolecop is her full claim. what do you think of these things?

And like what are your reads on all the other players in the game? You've been sorta quiet about that

[Ausuka]

[Ausuka]

I don’t have a strong townread on kowah atm but I did like their response to my pushing them on the koba scumread. Had very “I do what I want!” attitude.

I liked his d1 too but I think his d2 posting is very ??? in terms of like, the general approach he's taking when he comes into the thread, and I also think that some scum players are strong on d1 and kind of lose motivation as the game continues and slip up more

I don't think I want him limmed just yet but I think it's something to consider based on how he plays the rest of this gameday

[Ausuka]

what? Why would you care about that so much to quickhammer. aren't i in the poe or something

Kowah didnt even claim