OPEN 868 - Nobility and the Dark Angel | Endgame

[MegAzumarill]

bonjour what have I missed

[MegAzumarill]

I'll try to catch up best I can this weekend (prolly sunday) but for today give me the tldr

[MegAzumarill]

Haven't read yet so not quite.

[MegAzumarill]

So PBE, Eira, ?NM? and Enchant claim to be hidden nobles?
And hidden nobles must be town?

[MegAzumarill]

I mean we just noble me today and herta tomorrow and win?

[MegAzumarill]

Unless we are worried about DA not being between us

[MegAzumarill]

Just by posting alone if we elim I would say Enchant.

DA would be Meg.

I think DA Herta doesn’t really make sense I don’t think because Meg just disappearing feels really bad.

Wait I disappeared?

[MegAzumarill]

The Dark Angel leaves the game in a win if the game reaches 2:1:1 or 3:2:1

Assuming a town lim and not a DA noble, it goes to 3v2 at night and we lose because DA leaves.

Which means we are in MELO currently.
So actually I think I agree with Enchant that it is safest to elim/noble both me and Herta.

[MegAzumarill]

DA probably should be considered scum here since both scum and them want the same thing (today at least) akin to a traitor looks like.

[MegAzumarill]

Limming Mafia or Limming DA actually both lead us with ELO. Limming DA is 3v2 ELO, limming Mafia is 2v1 ELO.
HEAL: Herta
VOTE: Herta

[MegAzumarill]

I'm kind of disappointed I don't really have much to do here.
Killing/Nobling between me and herta means finding mafia is kinda pointless for me today
Am wondering something

@MOD
Is the scum nightkill mandatory?

Gotta do stuff, I'll check back later

[MegAzumarill]

You win when your faction holds a majority or nothing can prevent this from occurring, and the Dark Angel isn't elected as noble.

So mafia can win with DA as well if they never get nobilized.

You win when there are no longer any threats to the town.

Town autoloses if we guess wrong today.

~N

This. And not guessing is 50/50 loss.

So I hate that I agree with Enchant.

But it might be smart to deny scum the dayvig.

We don’t have a choice because we lose if we’re wrong on DA today.

~N

Break it down?

If we DA a non DA not in Meg/Herta then scum have a 50/50

Can you highlight my mistake please?

What do you mean by 50/50? 50/50 chance of hitting DA? They know who it is (who wasn't nobled) If we kill the one we don't noble, it's a 0% chance because DA is dead.

[MegAzumarill]

If N_M is town he needs to fess up on the hidden noble from yesterday.

+1

Agreed.

I could possibly be wrong on NM, since I think my initial tr on Enchant might be right after all but feel extremely confident on Math!town here.

I don’t like Mega trying to rush the day.

~N

I'm .....not

Not sure what gave you that impression.
I mean yeah I'm going to heal Herta because we just win if that happens, and vote since he's definitely not town fmpov.
Just trying to reason out the best solution of who should be in the lim pool.

Where do you see me rushing anyone?

[MegAzumarill]

My brain is auto correcting DA to "duh" and it's making me have to reread each new posts but it does make it funnier

[MegAzumarill]

I still have only read a little but PBE is reading toqn to me based on what I have read. Will be able to give more in depth reads tonight/tomorrow

[MegAzumarill]

town*

[MegAzumarill]

Why can Eiralox and PBE not be scum? I thought scum could HN themself, and eira was very late to claim HN from what I've heard

[MegAzumarill]

Gun to my head I think Herta is the DA and Meg is trying to look like the DA as scum. But it could just be that Meg actually is the DA and I am drinking too much metaphorical wine.

Well if you do NKA, Junko had reasons to kill Elements and Passenger. I don’t understand Toto unless mafia thought he was on to them or if Mega wanted to wifom maybe?

Elements had Herta as town, so I don’t understand why scum!Herta kills him. Because we know that they can’t be aligned right? So nks probably point to Mega > Herta I think, especially since Junko tried to allegedly “reaction test” me by initially trying to run me up than pocket me.

So I think it’s more likely Herta-DA, Mega-scum between the two of them.

~N

You're both wrong but I may be able to prove that I am town next phase if I do end up nobled.

[MegAzumarill]

Why can Eiralox and PBE not be scum? I thought scum could HN themself, and eira was very late to claim HN from what I've heard

I know I’m not. Interesting post, you are pretty much saying that you know for sure that Eira is HN and not NM, where as me and Enchant sound more like we’re likely just assuming that. Hmmm

~N

Twisting my words but w/e

[MegAzumarill]

Gun to my head I think Herta is the DA and Meg is trying to look like the DA as scum. But it could just be that Meg actually is the DA and I am drinking too much metaphorical wine.

Well if you do NKA, Junko had reasons to kill Elements and Passenger. I don’t understand Toto unless mafia thought he was on to them or if Mega wanted to wifom maybe?

Elements had Herta as town, so I don’t understand why scum!Herta kills him. Because we know that they can’t be aligned right? So nks probably point to Mega > Herta I think, especially since Junko tried to allegedly “reaction test” me by initially trying to run me up than pocket me.

So I think it’s more likely Herta-DA, Mega-scum between the two of them.

~N

You're both wrong but I may be able to prove that I am town next phase if I do end up nobled.

I’m listening.

But then who should we vote then because if you’re telling the truth about DA, then it has to be Herta and him still doubting my claim definitely is giving me DA vibes.

~N

If we noble Herta it doesn't matter, I could prove myself as town if we elimmed Herta and Nobled me, though I obviously prefer just nobling Herta

[MegAzumarill]

Could is with an asterisk currently

[MegAzumarill]

I could prove myself as town if we elimmed Herta and Nobled me

Let's do this. Move your heal vote to yourself.

Yeah you'd like that wouldn't you.

Winning > An IC so let's not

[MegAzumarill]

Why can Eiralox and PBE not be scum? I thought scum could HN themself, and eira was very late to claim HN from what I've heard

I know I’m not. Interesting post, you are pretty much saying that you know for sure that Eira is HN and not NM, where as me and Enchant sound more like we’re likely just assuming that. Hmmm

~N

Twisting my words but w/e

Well you sound like you’re assuming Eira claimed late because he’s mafia rather than doubting his HN claim, so I thought it interesting that you did that.

At any rate, you’re not giving me DA vibes as compared to Herta.

~N

Mafia don't necessarily want to claim HN since they could benefit off of people assuming it's N_M. Therefore they stand to benefit delaying a trueclaim where town does less so

Not sure the context of the claim but could be relevant

[MegAzumarill]

I could prove myself as town if we elimmed Herta and Nobled me

Let's do this. Move your heal vote to yourself.

+1

Good point. If you’re not DA Mega, heal yourself. I recommend Herta do the same.

~N

No
Even in a world we reach tomorrow and I could prove I am town, that's 50/50 odds of just survivng a day only as opposed to winning on the spot

And I'm also awaiting mod feedback of whether I could prove myself anyway.

[MegAzumarill]

and vote since he's definitely not town fmpov

From town meg's pov I'm exactly DA.

Yesterday I was just "not town."

Your point is?
A Not town lim guarentees another day to live
So if you know someone isn't town you can safely vote

Unless you're implying I didn't know you were DA which is clearly not the case based on the rest of my post you quoted

[MegAzumarill]

Lots of nitpickyness of wordings today

[MegAzumarill]

Like if you can't think of an actual scum intent behind a certain wording over another why bring it up?
Makes sense for Herta IG, they're desperate

[MegAzumarill]

UNVOTE:
Until I get a proper read through ig

[MegAzumarill]

I'm kind of disappointed I don't really have much to do here.
Killing/Nobling between me and herta means finding mafia is kinda pointless for me today
Am wondering something

@MOD
Is the scum nightkill mandatory?

Gotta do stuff, I'll check back later

Because a win condition is reliant on being killed, all eliminations and night kills are mandatory.

Does this remain true after the player with that elimination is dead?

[MegAzumarill]

Alright so I've caught up

Initial thoughts are that it feels like PBE/ Eirolox contains 1 scum, and the rest contains the other. The slot's have some good, some bad moments but mostly feel somewhat evasive and defensive at points (day 3). I also think considering a PBE HN, the NK tonight makes little sense.

Some of the interactions between the two feel natural which of course "can" be faked but feels unlikely. So probably only one of the two.

Tapioca/Mathblade feels like they could be the partner, but I feel like math/PBE handle this phase differently than they have as a scumteam with 4 votes. Considering they could have ended the day already provided the votes on me AND they would be reading me as DA if they were scum] (because they are pushing the opposite) this combination feels impossible as those would be incompatible.

Other options for the partner include

Not_Mafia - Token here for difficulty reading yada yada and so on. My default choice when I can't find a partner that'd make sense if they are in the game. Unlikely with Eira compared to PBE, due to HN thing, PBE maybe but this feels more town N_M than scum N_M for all that feels are worth.

I believe Enchant is town, in my experience with him he is more reserved in his scum game and this doesn't feel or look like it.

Scum almost certainly will push on the same side of me/Herta as DA today (whichever they think isn't the DA, they do the opposite. If they think DA isn't being nobled they mmay split, so depends I suppose on how close it ends up being.)

This derives my following solves (in order of probability) of
(PBE, N_M) (Mathblade, Eira) (PBE, Eira)

Eira is a bit townier than PBE in my eyes because of a particular post about my slot/ PBE that while false was fairly in line with my thinking reading through about how it was strange.


In either case Herta is DA. I could case reasons why but I don't really wanna so I'm not gonna unless push comes to shove.

[MegAzumarill]

Alright I now can sleep

[MegAzumarill]

Also I will give fair warning I will selfhammer if it would leave Herta as noble. I will not self vote without hammer given that scum could change plurality to another player and win. (Especially since my vote is the only one that would be counted for herta)



Should be a given but wanted to mention

[MegAzumarill]

I am nowhere near caught up but I hard scumread Mathblade here. like HARD scumread.

-A

Who would you say is the partner?

[MegAzumarill]

my main concern keeps being why scum would put themselves in this situation. i still don't understand the toto kill.

My guess is they were either shooting for the DA, between the Toto/PBE 1v1 OR PBE is scum and wanted Toto silenced after their back and forth.

Page 18 is roughly where the 1v1 started AFAICT
I don't see a resolution that would leave scum!PBE comfortable with Toto alive

Of course NKA is a very powerful and reliable tool though /S

[MegAzumarill]

I’m currently leaning to Herta as DA but I think Math’s suggestion that we leal one and lim the other is best because we really can’t be sure and if we get it wrong, then scum gets a free daykill tomorrow, so rn leaning to healing Herta and limming you and if you’re telling the truth about not being DA and are town, you should definitely be onboard with that since we autowin in that case.

~Nancy

I am nowhere near caught up but I hard scumread Mathblade here. like HARD scumread.

-A

Seriously Noraa?

Talk to me in discord because I totally don’t get it.

~N

Please do. Noraa I don’t think has TR’d me in a looooooong time.

I think that if Noraa does scumread me the best place to sort that out is tomorrow.

Math, Noraa thinks you’re both being too nice and too “wishy washy” to quote her. I still think you’re town for your stances which read protown to me but you are not usually this nice to me in any game ever where you know my main. So maybe explain that part and I can dispense with any paranoia on your slot.

I pretty much said everyone’s opinions don’t matter except on DA. I wouldn’t call that nice. I gave an opinion Herta DA gun to my head and Meg is scum trying to sound like a defeated DA. If Noraa scumreads me tomorrow let’s sort it out then.

I haven’t been wishy washy, but I have been lazy and noncommital because either A) we win or B) tomorrow is elo with less slots to sort or C) we lose.

I then can focus narrowly on what matters. Who we elim and who we noble

What about me reads as defeated DA? If I'm DA am I not about to win?
Wouldn't Scum!Me project this rather than "defeated"

[MegAzumarill]

Trying to get in your head here since that doesn't really make sense to me

[MegAzumarill]

As DA that would be completing my Win Con? Same with town

[MegAzumarill]

The only alignment that wouldnt be a win for is if I was mafia

[MegAzumarill]

Other way around

[MegAzumarill]

I'm a Mafia working toward my win con trying to not lose by making you elim Herta rather than noble.

Or I'm town or DA working toward my win con by being elimmed and having Herta Nobled.

[MegAzumarill]

So to clarify do you think I'm trying to be the noble vote today?

Y/N

[MegAzumarill]

So to clarify do you think I'm trying to be the noble vote today?

Y/N

I think you have a strategic plan of some kind and are begging for hammers. I don’t know the full plan though.

I'll put it this way
If you think I am not trying to be noblized today, then you think I am either not mafia, or Herta is not DA. Nothing else makes logical sense.

Realistically my strategic plan is I know DA and we automatically noble him and therefore win when I am elimmed. I'd be happy to expedite that.

[MegAzumarill]

I agree. therefore if I am not aiming to make myself noble, I am either not mafia or know Herta is not DA, which is what I said

[MegAzumarill]

I agree. therefore if I am not aiming to make myself noble, I am either not mafia or know Herta is not DA, which is what I said

But you begged for hammers? So you do want noble?

You can only hammer eliminations

Nobles is plurality at time of elimination

[MegAzumarill]

Because plurality for noble is currently on Herta, the DA, if any other player was hammered town instantly wins.

[MegAzumarill]

Which is odd…

* logs out to do some thinking *

I hate this wine

You don’t want noble*

Ok so we're on the same page

I don't see what you think is odd.

[MegAzumarill]

You just socially feel scum to me and I don’t know why. Anytime I read your posts I just see scum.

How so? Saying I just seem like scum isn't particularly helpful.

Motivationally if I'm not mafia I have the same goal regardless of DA/Town and we've discussed why I'm not mafia.

Honestly Math's recent posting feels less like actual thoughts and more like pushing an agenda. Logically it doesn't hold together and I feel like he came to the realization I was town someway through (probably thinks I wouldn't question someone supporting my wincon as DA) and decides to make this pivot.

An alternative explanation for this pivot is having reason to go either way as scum that still isn't sure.

Realistically town! Math has always been fairly strong and consistant in my experience but more importantly much more articulate about their thoughts than they are being now. Makes me feel like conclusion is superceding reasoning which screams an agenda to me.

[MegAzumarill]

I'm going to look back into tapioca more real quick, if there's questions I'd be happy to answer

[MegAzumarill]

VOTE: eiralox
HEAL: bears

i think there's scum in eira/junko/herta and DA in PBE/toto/junko

Actually NKs make perfect sense if scum is actually working off these DA targets, substituting the scum options as what scum think is able to be mislimmed

[MegAzumarill]

Both DA targets dead/Nobled and the my slot being left alive as a more likely to frame as mafia target due to Junko being present in the prior list. Also ties in to Mathblades behavior pretty immensely assuming his partner wanted him to follow through with this for whatever reason. The claim of me as mafia when we could easily walk through why that was unlikely and the feeling of these unnatural, forced reads.

This also means mafia had DA as the least likely possible candidate which is funny af if yrue

[MegAzumarill]

Of course this is kind of irrelevant unless I do end up nobled but I joined this fame to scumhunt and that's what I wanna do

[MegAzumarill]

I figured out what I don’t like I think.

I don’t like Meg and Herta agree.

It makes me really want to noble Meg and elim Herta.

Mega is definitely scum but nka points more to her being mafia but could be wrong on it.

~N

my main concern keeps being why scum would put themselves in this situation. i still don't understand the toto kill.

My guess is they were either shooting for the DA, between the Toto/PBE 1v1 OR PBE is scum and wanted Toto silenced after their back and forth.

Page 18 is roughly where the 1v1 started AFAICT
I don't see a resolution that would leave scum!PBE comfortable with Toto alive

Of course NKA is a very powerful and reliable tool though /S

Why would I want to silence a player who hard tr me?

Okay no way this is town.

Mega’s for sure scum.

~Nancy

Can you show me where toto hard townread you?

[MegAzumarill]

First quote was accidental

[MegAzumarill]

K, PBE, I'm going to ignore you. I have already explained and if you can't see it, like I said before, you are either scum or can't be helped. Either way it is a waste of time and blood pressure.

[MegAzumarill]

I dont think the bear is DA.
They are probably town. Or they are good at theatre in which case well played

Ok there's this which isn't much but I suppose I did miss it

[MegAzumarill]

Fair enough, as long as we make sure Herta is out of the game one way or another we can discuss this tomorrow

[MegAzumarill]

Really interested in hearing from Eira/Enchant more today though if we are going that route

[MegAzumarill]

Your thoughts on DA/Mafia and why.
I'm fairly sure you are town so want to see where you lie

[MegAzumarill]

Or just general more input in terms of being able to sort Eira

[MegAzumarill]

Fair enough, as long as we make sure Herta is out of the game one way or another we can discuss this tomorrow

???

What? Did you just DA slip here?

You do realize that if Herta’s DA, there is no tomorrow. Town wins if DA’s nobled.

~N

Yeah, but I was referring to you and math wanting to noble me and elim Herta, which does lead to a tomorrow

[MegAzumarill]

Fair enough, as long as we make sure Herta is out of the game one way or another we can discuss this tomorrow

???

What? Did you just DA slip here?

You do realize that if Herta’s DA, there is no tomorrow. Town wins if DA’s nobled.

~N

Yeah, but I was referring to you and math wanting to noble me and elim Herta, which does lead to a tomorrow

If you’re town here and not DA, you should want to be limmed and Herta healed. As town you want the DA healed, so game ends in a town win.

Because fypov if you’re not DA, Herta has to be and you don’t just say you want him out of the game. If you’re town you 100% want Herta healed and you limmed.

There’s nothing to sort out in that case.

~N

Yes, in the case where you heal herta and elim me I don't need to sort, but you and Math control the elim and support not doing that so most likely I will need to solve this game tomorrow unless you flip-flop again

[MegAzumarill]

Oh I forgot to mention, I was hidden noble day 1

The subtext here is that N_M is retracting his claims for anyone that didnt pick up on that

[MegAzumarill]

I kinda feel Herta and Meg are trying too hard to seem DA like and only one can be.

I think Herta is doing it worse so noble Meg?

I mean where am I trying to look like DA?
And even if this was true this argument fails occams razor

[MegAzumarill]

If I'm town being eliminated in this context I win since DA is nobled

[MegAzumarill]

If I am scum being elimmed I immediately lose since DA is nobled

[MegAzumarill]

Neither of those statements makes sense

[MegAzumarill]

If I'm town being eliminated in this context I win since DA is nobled

I don’t like how you’re locking this in though
It’s most likely but I think town you would be paranoid of the edge cases and still hunt.

The only edge case I can think of making sense involves me not being town (that being Me/Herta as the scumteam and PBE as DA) I know this isn't true
And it's not like this statement is super reflective of my play in general, it's justifying the reason I have to give reads since my previous post about how I did actually want to sort was misinterpreted. The fact I shouldn't be sorting was not given by me, but PBE

[MegAzumarill]

If I'm town being eliminated in this context I win since DA is nobled

I don’t like how you’re locking this in though
It’s most likely but I think town you would be paranoid of the edge cases and still hunt.

The only edge case I can think of making sense involves me not being town (that being Me/Herta as the scumteam and PBE as DA) I know this isn't true
And it's not like this statement is super reflective of my play in general, it's justifying the reason I have to give reads since my previous post about how I did actually want to sort was misinterpreted. The fact I shouldn't be sorting was not given by me, but PBE

Why do you say you and Herta can’t be scum, PBE being DA trying to ensure their death overnight and scum in lurkers?

I don’t believe in this world to be clear but I fail to see why town!you doesn’t consider it.

Doesn't PBE always get CCed in that case? Like who's the HN in that scenario?

[MegAzumarill]

And don't say N_M because they've made it clear their HN claims are in jest

[MegAzumarill]

I guess in that scenario scum are HNing themself and are outside of the DA pool. But that doesn't really make sense with a Toto kill, lowering the DA pool for town without shooting for the dayvig themself.

Sure it's possible

[MegAzumarill]

If I'm town being eliminated in this context I win since DA is nobled

If I am scum being elimmed I immediately lose since DA is nobled

First one clearly does make sense because that is in the OP. What????

2nd one only puts scum at a great disadvantage but not autolose.

C’mon Mega we know you’re not this terrible at mech. Even I’m better than this at mech and I basically suck at it in general.

I'm referring to Math's statements not my own. Why would I say something then immediately say my own words make no sense? Like do you genuinely think I'm actively discrediting myself?

Also what about automatically losing the game is not an autolose. Like.... that's the definition.

[MegAzumarill]

If I'm town being eliminated in this context I win since DA is nobled

If I am scum being elimmed I immediately lose since DA is nobled

First one clearly does make sense because that is in the OP. What????

2nd one only puts scum at a great disadvantage but not autolose.

C’mon Mega we know you’re not this terrible at mech. Even I’m better than this at mech and I basically suck at it in general.

I'm referring to Math's statements not my own. Why would I say something then immediately say my own words make no sense? Like do you genuinely think I'm actively discrediting myself?

Also what about automatically losing the game is not an autolose. Like.... that's the definition.

Oh sorry then. I’m really out of it. What exactly is your stance then?

On what exactly?

[MegAzumarill]

My stance is the best course of action today is to elim me and noble herta, speaking of

HEAL: Herta

I'm fairly sure I should've been doing this already/ was intending to but I'm not according to last VC

[MegAzumarill]

If I'm town being eliminated in this context I win since DA is nobled

I don’t like how you’re locking this in though
It’s most likely but I think town you would be paranoid of the edge cases and still hunt.

If I’m town in whichever between Mega and Herta who’s not DA, I 100% self vote here and not only that, actively encourage votes on me. Because as town I obviously want autowin. This makes me think we’re likely looking at a DA/mafia scenario as opposed to DA town because the clear townie response is to elim me and nobilize the other.

Also I will give fair warning I will selfhammer if it would leave Herta as noble. I will not self vote without hammer given that scum could change plurality to another player and win. (Especially since my vote is the only one that would be counted for herta)



Should be a given but wanted to mention

[MegAzumarill]

Alright so I've caught up

Initial thoughts are that it feels like PBE/ Eirolox contains 1 scum, and the rest contains the other. The slot's have some good, some bad moments but mostly feel somewhat evasive and defensive at points (day 3). I also think considering a PBE HN, the NK tonight makes little sense.

Some of the interactions between the two feel natural which of course "can" be faked but feels unlikely. So probably only one of the two.

Tapioca/Mathblade feels like they could be the partner, but I feel like math/PBE handle this phase differently than they have as a scumteam with 4 votes. Considering they could have ended the day already provided the votes on me AND they would be reading me as DA if they were scum] (because they are pushing the opposite) this combination feels impossible as those would be incompatible.

Other options for the partner include

Not_Mafia - Token here for difficulty reading yada yada and so on. My default choice when I can't find a partner that'd make sense if they are in the game. Unlikely with Eira compared to PBE, due to HN thing, PBE maybe but this feels more town N_M than scum N_M for all that feels are worth.

I believe Enchant is town, in my experience with him he is more reserved in his scum game and this doesn't feel or look like it.

Scum almost certainly will push on the same side of me/Herta as DA today (whichever they think isn't the DA, they do the opposite. If they think DA isn't being nobled they mmay split, so depends I suppose on how close it ends up being.)

This derives my following solves (in order of probability) of
(PBE, N_M) (Mathblade, Eira) (PBE, Eira)

Eira is a bit townier than PBE in my eyes because of a particular post about my slot/ PBE that while false was fairly in line with my thinking reading through about how it was strange.


In either case Herta is DA. I could case reasons why but I don't really wanna so I'm not gonna unless push comes to shove.

Mostly still sticking by this currently

[MegAzumarill]

Alright so I've caught up

Initial thoughts are that it feels like PBE/ Eirolox contains 1 scum, and the rest contains the other. The slot's have some good, some bad moments but mostly feel somewhat evasive and defensive at points (day 3). I also think considering a PBE HN, the NK tonight makes little sense.

Some of the interactions between the two feel natural which of course "can" be faked but feels unlikely. So probably only one of the two.

Tapioca/Mathblade feels like they could be the partner, but I feel like math/PBE handle this phase differently than they have as a scumteam with 4 votes. Considering they could have ended the day already provided the votes on me AND they would be reading me as DA if they were scum] (because they are pushing the opposite) this combination feels impossible as those would be incompatible.

Other options for the partner include

Not_Mafia - Token here for difficulty reading yada yada and so on. My default choice when I can't find a partner that'd make sense if they are in the game. Unlikely with Eira compared to PBE, due to HN thing, PBE maybe but this feels more town N_M than scum N_M for all that feels are worth.

I believe Enchant is town, in my experience with him he is more reserved in his scum game and this doesn't feel or look like it.

Scum almost certainly will push on the same side of me/Herta as DA today (whichever they think isn't the DA, they do the opposite. If they think DA isn't being nobled they mmay split, so depends I suppose on how close it ends up being.)

This derives my following solves (in order of probability) of
(PBE, N_M) (Mathblade, Eira) (PBE, Eira)

Eira is a bit townier than PBE in my eyes because of a particular post about my slot/ PBE that while false was fairly in line with my thinking reading through about how it was strange.

In either case Herta is DA. I could case reasons why but I don't really wanna so I'm not gonna unless push comes to shove.

Mostly still sticking by this currently

@Mega, in what world do you think I have an even nonzero chance of being mafia here? This post gives me pause because I have real trouble believing your read on me is this terrible. It’s like you’re not even reading my posts.

Gth, I hard agree with you on Enchant and don’t think Eira looks like scum but your read on me so so beyond terrible atp so for you to still stand by this post kind of gives me the heebie jeebies.

I’m actually leaning now to scum!you and Herta!DA. Because your PoE makes the most sense if you’re actually scum here. Because I know I’m not scum and considering you don’t think Eira is either, why are we the two slots you have listed twice?

I don’t believe you think we’re scum here, because you were in E/O Killers as was Enchant and he’s locktowned me. I think both you and Herta are probably scum now and I was actually thinking you might be town before you posted this. But I don’t believe for one nanosecond you either think I’m scum here or buddies with NM and that’s assuming it’s even NM. Last game I played with scum!him, he had me completely bamboozled.

I know it’s not us, definitely not Enchant and probably not Eira. And I think the reasoning for all of that should be beyond obvious. Enchant=officially confirmed HN, us unCCed HN, Eira=very likely real HN based off of NM not pushing him, so you’re solve royally sucks whatever you are.

I think that this take actually sounds informed to me where as Herta’s doesn’t.

VOTE: Mega

I guess by the same logic of why you aren't likely to be DA tracks for mafia. Why would scum HN one of their own instead of the DA pool if they are lowering it with a kill anyway.
But you seem to be treating HNs are conftown here which isn't the case according to Mod.


I don't think your play is strictly from town you here, particularly earlier days feel defensive and today felt twisty with words. I'm not as sure but I do wonder why you don't think Eira and Enchant is scum besides them being HNs

[MegAzumarill]

I want to make sure the game continues once the DA dies.

Weird stuff to throw out since you'd be asking this question exponentially earlier if you actually didn't know and were town

[MegAzumarill]

I don't see how that relates to my previous post

[MegAzumarill]

I don't see how that relates to the quoted post

[MegAzumarill]

I don't see how that relates to my previous post

Are you being deliberately obtuse or something? I know I’m town and was HN’d, so how isn’t it logical to you why I’d assume the same would also make sense for Enchant and Eira?

Mafia hoped I was DA and that they’d get a free daykill, they were obviously very wrong.

~N

Alright but here's the thin
I don't know for certain any of those three players are town

So whether or not you have an assumption that other HN players are town, why would I make any of those same assumptions? I'd argue that's not really a good assumption but it's at least not an obvious one

[MegAzumarill]

I want to make sure the game continues once the DA dies.

Weird stuff to throw out since you'd be asking this question exponentially earlier if you actually didn't know and were town

Humour me Mega, given that you’re insisting that Herta’s DA and I was healing him and voting you and knowing that’s according to you if true, an autowin for town, how do you think it makes even an iota of sense for me to be scum here? Because it’s against the ruies to play against wincon. That’s how I know you’re lying about that.

~N

You are right it's kinda irrelevant since you are being correct for a town win anyway, but there's worlds where you are scum that read me as actual DA and I don't really take kindly to being called scum for what I consider pretty bad reasons.

[MegAzumarill]

I still don't track your logic on why you think I should be locking you as town, and your insistance on me being able to is frustrating.
It's bad reasoning because I, as town, see you saying that me, as town, should be obviously seeing something that I am not obviously seeing. You are contradicting reality, more than just a wrong conclusion, but the wrong assumption town!me should've seen this because I don't.

Like I'm trying to have a fairly civil discourse here but you aren't really adressing my concerns WHY is HN close to conftown, or WHY you should be conftown if herta is DA. I don't see the reasoning for your claims that are actually compelling in any way shape or form.

Eira and you are listed twice because you appear twice in my list of scumteam, at least when I listed them back then.
This persistance is making me reconsider a bit as it feels more towny than not. I'd suppose that's leave something like a N_M Mathblade as the most likely? Fairly irrelevant.

[MegAzumarill]

I wonder if mafia!Herta DA PBE could in theory make sense
I'll sleep on it

[MegAzumarill]

Because I kind of see where math is coming from, but the most obvious solution if math is right I know is false I could look into it

[MegAzumarill]

I still don't track your logic on why you think I should be locking you as town, and your insistance on me being able to is frustrating.
It's bad reasoning because I, as town, see you saying that me, as town, should be obviously seeing something that I am not obviously seeing. You are contradicting reality, more than just a wrong conclusion, but the wrong assumption town!me should've seen this because I don't.

Like I'm trying to have a fairly civil discourse here but you aren't really adressing my concerns WHY is HN close to conftown, or WHY you should be conftown if herta is DA. I don't see the reasoning for your claims that are actually compelling in any way shape or form.

Eira and you are listed twice because you appear twice in my list of scumteam, at least when I listed them back then.
This persistance is making me reconsider a bit as it feels more towny than not. I'd suppose that's leave something like a N_M Mathblade as the most likely? Fairly irrelevant.

I’m currently healing the player you’re insisting is DA which if true is an autotown win. If you think I’m mafia doing that then I’m going to catch a ban for playing against wincon.

~N

That assumes you, as mafia, know who DA is

If mafia was good at that DA wouldve been HNed long ago

[MegAzumarill]

Realistically you just need plurality since after Herta is elimmed they can no longer be nobled

I guess i'll see yall tomorrow then

[MegAzumarill]

I'm fine with this given you two give a full chance to reassess my slot tomorrow

[MegAzumarill]

Because if you're arguing I'm DA today then it's because I'm acting like DA which is not how mafia acts.

[MegAzumarill]

VOTE: Herta

[MegAzumarill]

Realistically you just need plurality since after Herta is elimmed they can no longer be nobled

I guess i'll see yall tomorrow then

Lol, why did you suddenly act super scummy right after I voted you when my heal was on Herta? But you’re actually right about that, we don’t need a majority on heals only on votes.

Scum!NM gave it away because in this scenario, scum would rather sacrifice his buddy than DA but he healed us, rather than either of you.

~N

See you say I'm acting scummy but where?
Because I didn't have you as locktown? That feels petty and arbitrary and frankly if you continue to insist I'm scum tomorrow and you are town, we deserve to lose and I'm going to engage with it past that. It isn't worth the effort

[MegAzumarill]

Realistically you just need plurality since after Herta is elimmed they can no longer be nobled

I guess i'll see yall tomorrow then

Lol, why did you suddenly act super scummy right after I voted you when my heal was on Herta? But you’re actually right about that, we don’t need a majority on heals only on votes.

Scum!NM gave it away because in this scenario, scum would rather sacrifice his buddy than DA but he healed us, rather than either of you.

~N

See you say I'm acting scummy but where?
Because I didn't have you as locktown? That feels petty and arbitrary and frankly if you continue to insist I'm scum tomorrow and you are town, we deserve to lose and I'm not going to engage with it past that. It isn't worth the effort

ebwop

[MegAzumarill]

I'm fine with this given you two give a full chance to reassess my slot tomorrow

I don’t think there is a tomorrow because you’re DA but if there is of course whoever is alive would reevaluate

Thank you for the basic setup information we all have.

[MegAzumarill]

Because if you're arguing I'm DA today then it's because I'm acting like DA which is not how mafia acts.

You’re not acting like town and NM healed us not either of you, so NM is now confiscum and both NM and Junko were trying to get the other limmed.

@Math I want to do some ISOs especially on NM/Junko just to be certain. Because NM did hardbus his buddy on d1 of Diffusion of Power, so I especially want to see if either NM or Junko was ever in actual danger. Both were pushing each other, so knowing NM is confiscum gives us new info, so I just want to check that out first.

~N

Consider the world where Me/Herta is DA/Town. and N_M's play makes more sense

[MegAzumarill]

Like his play if me/Herta are Da/Mafia legit doesn't make sense

[MegAzumarill]

Because if you're arguing I'm DA today then it's because I'm acting like DA which is not how mafia acts.

You’re not acting like town and NM healed us not either of you, so NM is now confiscum and both NM and Junko were trying to get the other limmed.

@Math I want to do some ISOs especially on NM/Junko just to be certain. Because NM did hardbus his buddy on d1 of Diffusion of Power, so I especially want to see if either NM or Junko was ever in actual danger. Both were pushing each other, so knowing NM is confiscum gives us new info, so I just want to check that out first.

~N

Cool. Standing by.

@Meg - It is. I have a 50/50 and I believe in the way I have picked. At some point you just have to pick because you can wine yourself into no elim which is very very bad. If I am right *yay we win* if not then just a game and try again in elo or if you’re scum an extra day.

If you believe in it you can hammer Herta rather than waiting on passing blame to PBE if you are wrong.

FYPOV they should be able to be scum and I really dislike your willingness to blindly sheep the slot.

You say you've made up your mind then commit to it.

You say it's a 50/50 expect me to do everything in my power to convince you to acheive my win con regardless of if I am Town, Mafia, or DA. That is how I play especially in Elo scenarios. That's how I play here, as town

[MegAzumarill]

Realistically you just need plurality since after Herta is elimmed they can no longer be nobled

I guess i'll see yall tomorrow then

Lol, why did you suddenly act super scummy right after I voted you when my heal was on Herta? But you’re actually right about that, we don’t need a majority on heals only on votes.

Scum!NM gave it away because in this scenario, scum would rather sacrifice his buddy than DA but he healed us, rather than either of you.

~N

See you say I'm acting scummy but where?
Because I didn't have you as locktown? That feels petty and arbitrary and frankly if you continue to insist I'm scum tomorrow and you are town, we deserve to lose and I'm going to engage with it past that. It isn't worth the effort

You keep flipflopping between sounding off the charts scummy to sounding quite townie but your play last night - right after I healed Herta and voted you, makes 0 sense if you’re town here. There’s 0 reason for you to have been doubting I was locktown after that and suddenly despite the lack of any CC on my HN claim, you suddenly pivoted to my being DA. I’m not a complete idiot.

~N

SCUM DO NOT KNOW DA

HEALING DA IS SOMETHING SCUM CAN DO

Tell me which of these statements is wrong

[MegAzumarill]

And DA Meg acts exactly like Town meg here, so your argument even if valid reasoning [which it isn't] doesn't hold

[MegAzumarill]

I have also discussed the reasons why self voting isn't good unless it hammers in this scenario

[MegAzumarill]

And those reasons aren't play reasons
Those are mech reasons
Those are BAD mech reasons
They are fundamentally misunderstanding the setup and the stakes of said setup.
If you want to argue I'm mafia, argue how I'm trying to get Herta Elimmed
If you want to argue I'm DA, argue how I want myself limmed and Herta nobled. This scenario is the same if I am town.

Don't argue I don't see the mech the same as you therefore I must be scum. That's a bad argument.

[MegAzumarill]

It's essentially saying you disagree with me therefore I am evil.
And you present evidence that you say makes me mafia then others that you say makes me not. Those aren't compatible. Choose one or the other and stop tripping over yourself to get something through with pure charisma

[MegAzumarill]

Give me a case summary that isn't self contradictory on me
Leave mech out of it, unless you're arguing me as mafia exactly. Mech won't distinguish between DA and town.

I'd like to see what you have. State my alignment and prove it

[MegAzumarill]

@pbe

[MegAzumarill]

Because if you're arguing I'm DA today then it's because I'm acting like DA which is not how mafia acts.

You’re not acting like town and NM healed us not either of you, so NM is now confiscum and both NM and Junko were trying to get the other limmed.

@Math I want to do some ISOs especially on NM/Junko just to be certain. Because NM did hardbus his buddy on d1 of Diffusion of Power, so I especially want to see if either NM or Junko was ever in actual danger. Both were pushing each other, so knowing NM is confiscum gives us new info, so I just want to check that out first.

~N

Cool. Standing by.

@Meg - It is. I have a 50/50 and I believe in the way I have picked. At some point you just have to pick because you can wine yourself into no elim which is very very bad. If I am right *yay we win* if not then just a game and try again in elo or if you’re scum an extra day.

If you believe in it you can hammer Herta rather than waiting on passing blame to PBE if you are wrong.

FYPOV they should be able to be scum and I really dislike your willingness to blindly sheep the slot.

You say you've made up your mind then commit to it.

You say it's a 50/50 expect me to do everything in my power to convince you to acheive my win con regardless of if I am Town, Mafia, or DA. That is how I play especially in Elo scenarios. That's how I play here, as town

Again you’re being scummy. And if you were actually town here who thinks Herta’s DA because there’s no logical reason for you to doubt my HN claim or any of the other HN claims, you would have townlocked me for healing Herta and voting you. In E/O Killers, your thought process was actually logical and here it’s clearly not. I don’t believe you’re anywhere this terrible at reading me here if you’re town because your read on me completely defies all logic.

I am also well out of my scumrange here and that should also be obvious to town!you after that game. It obviously is to Enchant. So I think your read on me is fake and you’re either DA or mafia here.

~N

Healing Herta isn't a clear, regardless of their alignment

I will die on this hill

[MegAzumarill]

And DA Meg acts exactly like Town meg here, so your argument even if valid reasoning [which it isn't] doesn't hold

How tf am I supposed to know what DA!Mega acts like? I’ve never played this setup before and have no idea how you’d play. All I know is if there’s town in either you/Herta and I’m that townie, I self-vote and heal the other one for town autowin.

I’m unCCed HN and I didn’t nobilze myself. Enchant officially confirmed HN and since NM scumclaimed, Eira is very likely also HN.

If you’re town you would assume logically that Herta has to be DA from that and would 100% have townlocked me for healing Herta and voting you. The fact that you’re still hardpushing me after that and especially pivoting to my being DA when I can literally prove that and now you’re encouraging Math to vote Herta, so that I’m unable to prove I’m not DA is hella scummy. There’s 0 reason to do that if you’re actually town here, none. Town!you would want me to prove my claim not try to prevent me from doing so.

~N

DA!Me, at least today (which is all I've played) wins if Herta is healed and I am elimmed. The same is true for town me.

The difference, I suppose, is Town Me doesn't just need to be elimmed but to have herta nobled as well.
Assume I vote myself, and heal herta. If scum healed someone else (say, you) and then hammered me, they could shift plurality with both their votes (in some situations). Therefore I don't want to self vote but I will self hammer because scum cannot shift nobility plurality after i am hammered

Also
Herta (clap) being (clap) healed (clap) is (clap) not (clap) a (clap) clear! (clap)
Please don't bring it up again.

[MegAzumarill]

The only reason I didn't self hammer when I was at E-1 after your vote was I wasn't online until after Herta unvoted

[MegAzumarill]

I actually missed that you being on the wagon could confirm you as HN.
Makes more sense now

[MegAzumarill]

How is it a clear? You haven't explained it. How is healing a player from scum!you's POV that may or may not be DA a clear?

[MegAzumarill]

Scum! you knows as much about DA as town!you

[MegAzumarill]

The fact you can't seem to process that probably means you're town, but stop pushing healing Herta as clearing fmpov it's not

[MegAzumarill]

I actually missed that you being on the wagon could confirm you as HN.
Makes more sense now

You’re an expert at mech, how would you not realize that?

If you’re town, you’re entire push on me makes absolutely no sense so no I don’t believe you, especially after you decided to doubt my unCCed HN claim.

~N

I'm not even pushing you I'm defending myself from your BS.
It's more likely to be town BS but BS all the same

[MegAzumarill]

How is it a clear? You haven't explained it. How is healing a player from scum!you's POV that may or may not be DA a clear?

May or may not?

There is no may or may not. One of you has to be DA and your response to this continues to scream obvscum.

~N

May or may not fypov

[MegAzumarill]

Like explain to me how you know who DA is exactly as scum

[MegAzumarill]

Like explain to me how you know who DA is exactly as scum

The fact you can't seem to process that probably means you're town, but stop pushing healing Herta as clearing fmpov it's not

One of you has to be DA and if it’s not you, of course it’s clearing.

~N

[MegAzumarill]

Like explain to me how you know who DA is exactly as scum

[MegAzumarill]

Like explain to me how

you

know who DA is

exactly

as scum

[MegAzumarill]

Like explain to me how

you

know who DA is

exactly

as scum

Idk why you keep quoting this. I’ve already explained that no one other than you/Herta can be DA atp.

~N

I don't doubt you on this. Exact means one person. Tell me how you could determine that I am exactly VT and Herta is exactly DA.

[MegAzumarill]

And if you can't isn't it possible you may think I am DA even if I am truly VT?

[MegAzumarill]

So in that case, I would be VT, you would be scum, and Herta would be DA, and you would want to heal Herta?

[MegAzumarill]

Math can you back me up on this PBE will actually listen to you

[MegAzumarill]

I'm talking to pbe

[MegAzumarill]

Because PBE is trying to argue to me it isn't possible

[MegAzumarill]

So in that case, I would be VT, you would be scum, and Herta would be DA, and you would want to heal Herta?

Town autowins, scum auto loses if we nobilize DA. So no it’s not possible that or remotely conceivable that I play against wincon and risk getting banned.

Then where in the logical flow is my error?

Like explain to me how

you

know who DA is

exactly

as scum

Idk why you keep quoting this. I’ve already explained that no one other than you/Herta can be DA atp.

~N

I don't doubt you on this. Exact means one person. Tell me how you could determine that I am exactly VT and Herta is exactly DA.

And if you can't isn't it possible you may think I am DA even if I am truly VT?

So in that case, I would be VT, you would be scum, and Herta would be DA, and you would want to heal Herta?

[MegAzumarill]

Tell me what's wrong here

Have I forgotten to account of your omniscience and that you could never be wrong?

[MegAzumarill]

Or perhaps you think it's gamethrowing to not kill an unclaimed cop night 1 over a different VT as that's less beneficial to a scum wincon

[MegAzumarill]

So in that case, I would be VT, you would be scum, and Herta would be DA, and you would want to heal Herta?

Town autowins, scum auto loses if we nobilize DA. So no it’s not possible that or remotely conceivable that I play against wincon and risk getting banned.

Then where in the logical flow is my error?

Like explain to me how

you

know who DA is

exactly

as scum

Idk why you keep quoting this. I’ve already explained that no one other than you/Herta can be DA atp.

~N

I don't doubt you on this. Exact means one person. Tell me how you could determine that I am exactly VT and Herta is exactly DA.

And if you can't isn't it possible you may think I am DA even if I am truly VT?

So in that case, I would be VT, you would be scum, and Herta would be DA, and you would want to heal Herta?

If you cannot show where this falls apart your argument for what I should do as VT falls apart.

So show me

[MegAzumarill]

Tell me what's wrong here

Have I forgotten to account of your omniscience and that you could never be wrong?

I’m not confident which of you is DA and I don’t know why you’re trying to convince me I’m scum. I want to nobilize whichever one of you is DA. I think that’s beyond obvious atp.

~N

This is a sarcastic post because of how obviously what you are saying doesn't make sense and implies you or I should be omniscient if it were actually true.

I suppose I should denote my sarcasm more clearly in the future with a picture of a clown accompanying the post.

[MegAzumarill]

And before you post, no, the gamethrowing argument doesn't work because in my hypothetical scenario you are playing to a scum win-con

[MegAzumarill]

Mathblade,
Because this is the crux of Nancy's argument WHY I'm scum

I know this to be untrue and so I am proving the argument false

[MegAzumarill]

Not because I think Nancy is scum, it's because Nancy thinks I should 100% know she is town, and because I am saying I don't, she is saying I cannot be town

[MegAzumarill]

How is that relevant? Nancy is saying I should think she is town for a specific reason I think is false.

I think she is town for a different reason.

The problem is Nancy is essentially saying "I voted a person you had a guilty on once and then unvoted, so you should think I am Town 100% and you are evil if you think this does not make me conftown"

Which is an obviously ridiculous statement and that's the main argument she's using to push me as scum

[MegAzumarill]

Why does Nancy have to prove to scum they’re not scum?

That seems fruitless and a waste of time. If we elim you and you are town we can solve it tomorrow.

This fight is a big blow up over nothing.

Well Mega hasn’t disputed my argument that she or Herta have to be DA

, so if she’s town and capable of logical thought, she 100% should have cleared me yesterday, so I don’t see how she can possibly be town here with that mega absurd argument. She would also know that I’m playing nothing here like I did in E/O Killers so her push on me is faked because I don’t believe town!Mega is this terrible at seeing obvious logic.

~N

Agree with the bold, am disputing the smallcaps (tried to italicised but im on mobile)

[MegAzumarill]

You need both to be true to make what you are saying true

[MegAzumarill]

And again, I'm not pushing you as scum. I am explicitly disputing your case on me, which you yourself made dependant on you being an IC

[MegAzumarill]

Not because I think Nancy is scum, it's because Nancy thinks I should 100% know she is town, and because I am saying I don't, she is saying I cannot be town

If you’re town and it’s beyond obvious that fypov Herta has to be DA then why wouldn’t town!you have lockcleared me after my Herta heal/you vote?

The only thing I struggle with is you sound really sincere despite making no sense.

~N

Because the below scenario, puts you as scum, trying to play to your win condition, doing exactly that.

So in that case, I would be VT, you would be scum, and Herta would be DA, and you would want to heal Herta?

Town autowins, scum auto loses if we nobilize DA. So no it’s not possible that or remotely conceivable that I play against wincon and risk getting banned.

Then where in the logical flow is my error?

Like explain to me how

you

know who DA is

exactly

as scum

Idk why you keep quoting this. I’ve already explained that no one other than you/Herta can be DA atp.

~N

I don't doubt you on this. Exact means one person. Tell me how you could determine that I am exactly VT and Herta is exactly DA.

And if you can't isn't it possible you may think I am DA even if I am truly VT?

So in that case, I would be VT, you would be scum, and Herta would be DA, and you would want to heal Herta?

If you cannot show where this falls apart your argument for what I should do as VT falls apart.

So show me

[MegAzumarill]

UNVOTE:

[MegAzumarill]

Not because I think Nancy is scum, it's because Nancy thinks I should 100% know she is town, and because I am saying I don't, she is saying I cannot be town

If you’re town and it’s beyond obvious that fypov Herta has to be DA then why wouldn’t town!you have lockcleared me after my Herta heal/you vote?

The only thing I struggle with is you sound really sincere despite making no sense.

~N

Because the below scenario, puts you as scum, trying to play to your win condition, doing exactly that.

So in that case, I would be VT, you would be scum, and Herta would be DA, and you would want to heal Herta?

Town autowins, scum auto loses if we nobilize DA. So no it’s not possible that or remotely conceivable that I play against wincon and risk getting banned.

Then where in the logical flow is my error?

Like explain to me how

you

know who DA is

exactly

as scum

Idk why you keep quoting this. I’ve already explained that no one other than you/Herta can be DA atp.

~N

I don't doubt you on this. Exact means one person. Tell me how you could determine that I am exactly VT and Herta is exactly DA.

And if you can't isn't it possible you may think I am DA even if I am truly VT?

So in that case, I would be VT, you would be scum, and Herta would be DA, and you would want to heal Herta?

If you cannot show where this falls apart your argument for what I should do as VT falls apart.

So show me

@PBE is this wrong?

[MegAzumarill]

HEAL: Herta
VOTE: Meg

[MegAzumarill]

UNVOTE:

[MegAzumarill]

I think that's hammer if PBE is HN but this tests if PBE is HN.

[MegAzumarill]

Which is kind of irrelevant saying it out loud but if game doesn't end we know they are a confirmed liar

[MegAzumarill]

Which I doubt but oh well

[MegAzumarill]

I think so

[MegAzumarill]

Which is kind of irrelevant saying it out loud but if game doesn't end we know they are a confirmed liar

I’m not lying. I am HN and I do have a hidden extra vote.

~N

If this is true I have been hammered

[MegAzumarill]

Honestly DA is unbelivable hard.


Had DA claimed at twilight and ask to shot them, i would do so just because for sparing me of this pain.

For the most part it's jester/ unjester but both teams have means to remove it if it's too obvious.

Basically it's drawing attention either way without looking like it. Seems reasonable to be honest