Newbie 594: (Game Over!)

[gorillaman]

Wotcha,

/confirm

[gorillaman]

The moderator may not ahve completely randomised the roles. It makes sense to have at least 1 IC scum to make it not too easy for town, and me being the last to confirm does make the most suspicious.

13. The setup and roles were 100% randomized.

Not that I'm getting at you, but I don't want anybody to be mislead by that post.

[gorillaman]

That was a bit more defensive than necessary. Second paragraph's pretty convincing; I can think of an explanation but obviously that's Atticus' job to give.

[gorillaman]

Please, I'm Atticus. So when something belongs to me, it'd be Atticus's. I am not a number of Atticu. But more importantly, what do you want me to explain? Battousai explains everything in that post. I haven't contributed much. I don't usually, but no, I haven't. As for the whole IC-noob-scum-thing: yes, I should know, and I do know that most mods fully randomise roles. But I don't know anything about bird1111. I expressed instead what I thought Battousai's opinions (not mine) might be, because Nocmen looked like he might start bitching about it.

Atticus' = Atticus's

Battousai was FoSing you in part for the randomising thing, I only wanted to say that it did indeed seem unusual, that I could think of a reason why you might not have understood that, but it wasn't my place to explain your posts for you. Are you saying you were conscious all along that it's standard practice to randomise roles?

[gorillaman]

It is standard practice to randomize roles.

I don't know why you're telling me that,

I'm not sure what you are getting at, but all I see is that you made a blur between explaining for someone and telling your opnion of a post.

and I don't what you're saying here.

[gorillaman]

gorillaman ... says Atticus is a bit overdefensive, and then gets into some talk about whether roles are randomized or not.

You've misread my posts - neither of those statements are correct.

Pot calling the kettle black, eh?

As pointed out, you have not made many other posts either.

If you are voting for him from a lack of posts, what makes you special? You barely posted at all.

Tu quoque. If somebody's accused of doing something scummy, that isn't invalidated just because the accuser has done the same thing. If you agree that it's suspicious, mark them both down, if not, neither. I approve of zu_Faul's play so far, so I would have preferred a defence along the lines that he hasn't made as many posts as others, but they've all been relevant and productive. BlackWolf, don't be so easily swayed - be sure your case has really been answered before you unvote.

[gorillaman]

I noted that Battousai was being defensive, not Atticus, for your first statement, and I was talking about Batt's FoS and Atticus' understanding of the rules for the second, not whether the roles were randomised.

Now I'm calling you overdefensive - why is your first reaction to argue with me, rather than reading the posts again to see where you'd gone wrong?

[gorillaman]

I find split and BlackWolf's lurking very suspicious. ;)

I'm struggling for something original to say. I agree BlackWolf's reaction-getting explanation is BS. zu-Faul's town vibe on silence after four largely inconsequential posts was strange.

As for recent events, the pressure voting of Rickeon is all fair play; I don't like anything about Atticus' post 104; I'm sorry for having to be prodded.

[gorillaman]

I'm gonna assume you were joking with that statement.

Well assumed.

[gorillaman]

Would it be fair to say that if BlackWolf's town he was the easy target for scum to attack those last couple of pages?

[gorillaman]

Defensive again, you see. Although, I just did some of the hated metaing and that could be a bit of a town tell for you - you seem more comfortable as scum.

[gorillaman]

Two town and two mafia would be the minimum for a decent comparison, which is what he's got, so the relevant ones are all of them.

[gorillaman]

Interesting.

[gorillaman]

Well I would hope I wouldn't act differently as cop and town.

Pretty simple set of reasons why my play this game has differed from my first one. I'm playing this game a lot more casually, because one of the dozens of mistakes I thought I made in that game was to overthink the early stages and underthink the later ones. So I'm pacing myself. You'll also notice a lot more happened and sooner in newb495, which of course prompted more serious discussion. I think it's fair to say that everyone's posting was, on average, more aggressive. Then there are eight people rather than six for me to try and figure out, which slows me down. And finally, the big one - employment. Wasn't before, am now.

[gorillaman]

Of course we don't know if he's been picking up his prods.

[gorillaman]

I don't think zu's accusation against me was based on a meta. He took a look at my play and made a fair comment.

I'd also like to know what's happening with Rickeon.

[gorillaman]

Except that both times his was the first vote.

[gorillaman]

Rereading the last few pages, I came across BlackWolf's post 170:

If the scum is stupid enough to hammer now, let 'em.
It'll only mean we know who at least one of the scum are.

Seems like he's congratulating himself for seeing through Nocmen's ploy. While,

Well, that's only if they know your meta-game.
I think it'd be perfectly normal for, say, a Doc to not act as aggresively as usual, to draw less attention to himself, or a Cop for the same reason.

I don't think the town needs to be having a discussion about how to spot town power roles.

So,

FoS

[gorillaman]

I see no reason for town to explain to the scum what it would be stupid for them to do. I see no reason for town to talk about how the cop or the doc could be acting.

gorillaman still has yet to do any scumhunting.

Bit desperate to appear townie?

Would it matter if my post was a response to zu_Faul's? Explain how.

[gorillaman]

It matters because then you wouldn't be actively hunting scum, only doing it when somebody points it out to you. And that, is scummy.

Your suggestion is that my post was a result of zu-Faul's accusation. It benefits both town and scum to appear as town. If a player is inclined to act on a prompt to do more scum-hunting, then he will do so regardless of alignment. If town and scum act the same way in a given situation then you get zero information by noting someone taking that action. If you have something to say about the

way

in which that action is carried out, that can be meaningful, but not the

fact that it was

. So my suggestion is that while trying to defend yourself you've resorted to mudslinging.

Now in fact I wasn't influenced by zu_Faul, because it's counter-productive to respond to that kind of pressure. You go down that road and you're forever thinking "ooh, i haven't done enough of post type x, i'd better find something to say; ah, now i'm behind on post type y, have to think of something," and you're spending the rest of the game fulfilling quotas instead of doing your job.

[gorillaman]

I simply find it suspicios that you have not been doing any scumhunting untill this point in the game, and only post suspicions when prompted to.

You didn't find it suspicious enought to comment on before I accused you of something. You twist and turn.
Here's my question: If you actually believe you've caught someone not doing any scum-hunting at all

for a month

, why aren't you voting them? That person would obviously be scum - they should be lynched.
Answer: Because you yourself are not scum-hunting; you're only interested in protecting your own position.

You're defending where you should be attacking, and that is scummy.

vote: BlackWolf

(as a side issue, obviously I deny the accusation)

[gorillaman]

*sigh* My point is very simple. If you felt this description: "you have not been doing any scumhunting untill this point in the game, and only post suspicions when prompted to." applied to another person in the game, wouldn't you be voting for them? I sure as hell would. But BlackWolf is only interested in something so far as he can use it to protect himself. That is scummy. Also, see my post on tu quoque.

[gorillaman]

I'm not dismissing P

Good, I didn't know this and that was my main problem with your post.

I'm attacking A for being inconsistent. As a correct logical argument, it works like this:

A makes criticism of P for Q.
A is guilty of Q.
A's position is suspicious.

For one thing, A doesn't concede that he is guilty of Q. Demonstrate it, as A has for P.
:)
Sorry.
For one thing, I don't concede that I am guilty of not scum-hunting. Demonstrate it, as I have for BlackWolf.
More importantly, it's never inconsistent for town to look for scum. That analysis is quite flawed, quite flawed.

Could you please clarify this statement? I don't get what situation you're referring to.

Was a summation of my main reason for voting you, not a seperate criticism. You think you have what I would consider to be a pretty significant scumtell and prefer to use it as a pretty weak ad hom rebuttal. Defending where town should be attacking.

If you are to accuse someone along those lines, you must make sure you are not guilty of them yourself. Case in point, the whole way BlackWolf called certain people inactive earlier on this game.

No. That's why we're talking about tu quoque, which is a fallacy, which is why I originally brought it up regarding the criticism of BlackWolf, which was unwarranted for exactly this reason.

[gorillaman]

Oh, the fact that both replacements fresh from reading through the game feel the need to FoS Battousai is significant. I don't see what they're seeing yet, but I think that's cause enough for any of us who haven't reread lately to go do that.

[gorillaman]

It is a fallacy in this case. Examine the legitimate uses section in your link and you will see they do not apply to mafia.

[gorillaman]

Ha! What an utterly preposterous post.

FoS

weilawei, for sheer idiocy if nothing else. How does that affect my score?

[gorillaman]

but a few more and it looks like a person is trying to set up bait to try and get anyone else in trouble for it.

Speaking of that...

Unvote, Vote: Zu_Faul

Which of his FoSes/votes don't you like and why? I'm not happy with the lack of specifics here.

[gorillaman]

Why would you be happy with lynching Nocmen?

Going over your posts, you haven't cast any suspicions on him that weren't on somebody else as well.

Nice catch.

Potentially, 253 could be an almost textbook scum post. Accusing two people, one the townie you want to see lynched today and the other your partner from whom you're trying to distance.

On another note, why did weilawei wanting to help scum pass undiscussed?

I don't find that particularly significant. Misguided, but not scummy.

[gorillaman]

212. silence responds in 223.

[gorillaman]

In response to #257...I didn't mean anything quite like that. I was just curious as to his exact reasoning for wanting to lynch you and Nocmen.

Well then, I mean it like that. Only ever accusing someone while you're accusing somebody else as well looks like distancing.

However, gorillaman, you have yet to post an actual defence of his accusation of you being your 'old, unhelpful self'.

It didn't occur to me I had anything to defend. As far as accusations go, that one's so vague I almost have to squint to know it's there. When I accused BlackWolf of not scumhunting, I gave specific and logical reasons for doing so. zu_Faul's done nothing of the sort for me. If I'm guilty of anything, it's only some lazy posting at the start of a slow game, which he may or may not know perfectly well.

[gorillaman]

In chronological and ascending order of importance:

Point one, while I disagree with some that BlackWolf's first vote was contradictory/scummy, like others I don't believe the justification he gave for it. This could be indicative of a general disposition toward deceit.

Point two would be my reasons for FoSing him all the way back in post number whatever-it-was. What a person is thinking about will naturally influence what they think to post. I believe post 170 showed us what was on BlackWolf's mind at the time - avoiding Nocmen's scum trap and finding town power roles.

Point three, the conclusions BlackWolf presented about me, if he really believed them, should have been enough to convince him that I was scum - but it never occurred to him to act on that. Of course we know he didn't believe them - if the town would like to glace back at post 180, and the ones leading to it, he seems barely aware I exist. By his next post, 210, and the ones after that he suddenly finds me super suspicious. The only thing that's changed in that time is I've voiced my own suspicions of him.

Is my vote going to be resting on BlackWolf at the end of the day? Possibly, but I've got my eye on another player and their actions may change things.

[gorillaman]

BlackWolf isn't voting for me.

[gorillaman]

Blonde - reactions to my/Nocmen/Bat's answers to your request?

People who aren't voting - thoughts?

[gorillaman]

Hmm. I'm not sure I like Blonde's reasons for voting BlackWolf.

Point one, BlackWolf already noted didn't happen.

Point two I don't really follow.

Point three I find troublesome. "If we think that zu_faul is a scum" is a big 'if'. Obviously, if we think zu_Faul is scum we should be lynching zu_Faul. Also, lynching people by association doesn't work until we actually know, not think, who one of the scum is.

Points four and five are paraphrases of my own, which is interesting because when Blonde voted for me he cited zu_Faul and weilawei's posts as his reasons. Could be he's trying to avoid responsibility for his votes ("don't look at

me

, it was

their

idea").

[gorillaman]

Oh, I seem to have forgotten to

Vote: weilawei

. And no, Mr. Blonde, I've yet to do a more thorough look into things. Might have time for that tonight. Also waiting on weilawei.

I seem to have forgotten why you voted me.

You're stalling. Go back and have a look at his post before that.

[gorillaman]

unvote; vote:weilawei

For,

1a. Trying to run out the clock on the deadline. He disappears for a week from the 14th-21st, while active elsewhere; eventually returns on being prodded, where he makes some bullshit demand for Atticus to repeat his reasons instead of just going back a page and reading for himself, which buys him another two days lurking time.
1b. At least he has a vote on, but he's not doing anything to convice the town to join him. My guess, because he doesn't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't him or his teammate.

2a. Hiding behind his numbers. All this statistical gobbledygook looks like a way to conceal his motives.
2b. I also find little of substance in his other posts, except for his early accusations against Bat, which he seems to have abandoned.

[gorillaman]

You might have asked if the town actually wanted you to claim before you went ahead and did it.

What you're saying about silence is fair, but the problem is so many people are lurking/low activity it's not enough in itself for a lynch.

Edited out something non-game related that he should not have shared

[gorillaman]

silence, BlackWolf - you should already be voting for the person you find scummiest. We need to know where everybody stands so we can make a decision.

[gorillaman]

I see nothing in weilawei's latest post that changes my opinion of him.

I'd like to make a meatier post, but I'm afraid I'm exhausted at the moment.

[gorillaman]

I'm not confident enough in this idea to change my vote, but regarding silence and BlackWolf: their late voting suggests to me that at least one of them is scum. With so many potential wagons, they would want to keep their options open. Of the two, I find BlackWolf much the scummier.

unvote, vote: weilawei, just because weilawei isn't posting, making the game less fun.

This doesn't seem like the post of a man boasting about his 100% win record in his sig. If you think BlackWolf is even slightly more likely to be scum, which presumably you do since your vote was on him before this post, but think lynching weilawei would make the game more fun, I'd prefer you to vote for BlackWolf.

To expand a little on why weilawei's post wasn't good enough, he was accused of lurking and replied that he was busy. Well obviously, that's what someone who was actually busy would say and it's what scum caught lurking would say.
weilawei, I happened to see you logged in on the 25th, why didn't you say something?

[gorillaman]

weilawei, I happened to see you logged in on the 25th, why didn't you say something?

Do you want me to make up something or the real reason?

Mainly I just wanted to see if you'd deny it.

[gorillaman]

unvote; vote: BlackWolf

again.

Can't really do otherwise. Reluctance to vote, unnecessary role claim, various little things and the other reasons I've already given.

[gorillaman]

During the night I made this:

BlackWolf Association List

62 - BW's first vote is on zu_Faul for a reason with which nobody agrees; could be looking for any weak case to get his distancing out the way early.
80 - gorillaman defends BW against tu quoque
109 - Nocmen unvotes BW
123/132 - BW defends Rickeon/Blonde on not posting original content
139 - gorillaman possibly trying to deflect attention away from BW
143 - Bat takes an opportunity to remind the town he was attacking BW, possibly so we didn't miss his careful distancing.
154 - Bat unvotes BW
157 - BW doesn't want to lynch Rickeon/Blonde
164 - BW defends gorillaman on 'not scumhunting' charge/Bat's meta
174 - zu_Faul leaves BW off his FoS list, despite being the most obvious/deserving candidate
189 - Blonde's post after replacing in is primarily critical of Bat, BW's main accuser
190 - Blonde's next post primarily critical of Nocmen, BW's other accuser
212 - weilawei jumps in to defend BW
217 - weilawei still defending BW/attacking his accuser
220 - weilawei suggests gorillaman/BW pair
222 - Nocmen defends BW/attacks his accuser
242 - Bat suggests weilawei/BW pair
251 - Blonde attacks BW's most prominent accuser again
254 - BW defends Nocmen
269 - BW backs off zu_Faul
291 - silence suggests zu_Faul/BW pair
296/299/310 - Blonde trying to pin zu_Faul to BW
298 - gorillaman defends BW from Blonde's vote
300/331 - zu_Faul doesn't buy the case against BW
310 - Blonde unvotes BW
333 - gorillaman unvotes BW
338/340 - BW taking direction from silence
352 - Bat unvotes BW, whom he had been calling scum for a while, in favour of an alternate wagon
361/370 - Blonde says BW's defensiveness is 'logical', gets a town vibe from him.
371 - BW buys weilawei's explanation of his absence

Wasn't made with the intention of building a case against any particular person.
I've only checked through it once, so no doubt I've both forgotten things I wanted to include, and totally missed things that other people have spotted easily.
Obviously Blonde's now shown to be town, but I've left him in for comparison.


If we have one, is there any reason why we shouldn't play follow the cop for as long as we can?

[gorillaman]

I don't get how you can possibly not get that.

Vote: Rickeon

Just posting to point out that L-1, so I will NOT be voting for him.

unvote

If the scum is stupid enough to hammer now, let 'em.

I don't know whether all of you missed that he hasn't been on L-1 for some time. If you did I think it is possible that some of you tried to warn your scum partner not to lynch him and make themselves seem very scummy. If you did not miss it I don't know what you wanted to accomplish.
FOS: Battousai, Nocmen, Atticus

[gorillaman]

170 was after your unvote.

[gorillaman]

With three wagons to choose from, where one vote could shift the lynch, and their power role in the firing line, I'd be astonished if the scum didn't do something to try and save BlackWolf. So the evidence should be out there

Also, obviously if your cop and you investigated scum, tell us, and if not only defend the person you investigated if they are in danger of lynch.

No, don't do that. The hypothetical cop should claim as soon as anyone's in danger of being lynched, not defend anyone, and not give away his innocent results. Then we go on a no lynch investigation parade until the doc dies/cop gets a guilty/we hit lylo.

[gorillaman]

vote: Battousai

Mainly for the last minute unvote of BW, for a peculiar reason.

Because unless our cop is an idiot, he should know what to do, and because there's still some mafia in the game, we shouldn't give them opportunities which will commonly include the cop.

Maybe our cop is an idiot. I don't see any harm in making sure the cop understands what they should be doing, short of telling them whom to investigate. In one of our two possible setups, if played correctly, we've all but already won the game; that deserves discussion.

[gorillaman]

See, that's where I disagree. If there's a cop there's a doc; cop should claim today to get night protection.

[gorillaman]

What?

[gorillaman]

Also gorillaman- no, just no. Just because there's a cop doesn't mean there's a doc. Read the mod's introductory post. The games could be 7 townies, 6 townies 1 cop, 6 townies 1 doc, 5 townies 1 cop and 1 doc.

F11. Roleblocker just got lynched.

[gorillaman]

Fundamentally what a cop would need for the win is either a guilty or a

living

innocent.

Anyway, it's just as likely we've got a lot more work to do.

[gorillaman]

Thanks Flay.

Bat, cop could have investigated Blonde or the doc last night, which would exclude insta-win. Doc shouldn't claim today; even if doc's about to be lynched, the cop claiming should prevent it, because if there's a cop we no lynch today.

[gorillaman]

I'm trying to decide if weilawei's actions D1 make sense for BlackWolf's partner. At the moment I'm thinking not, but it's taking a while to decide mainly because I can't be bothered to do a full re-read.

[gorillaman]

Doesn't seem correct. Has weilawei gone after anyone but me, Battousai and, ultimately, BlackWolf? I think most of us have voiced some suspicion of at least that many people.

[gorillaman]

I understand the 'weilawei attacks BlackWolf's aggressors' argument, but that's not relevent to the point I was making.