Open 805 Panic Room Day 1

[Daenerys and Dragons]

also I want a response to literally everything I said because you clearly haven’t been paying attention if you at all think I could be scum.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

What do you mean “cakes was negligent in highlighting the recency of the game”?

[Daenerys and Dragons]

boop

[Daenerys and Dragons]

don't fucking shade me if you don't want your words to be scrutinized. you're wildly misreading everything and responding with completely irrelevant statements as if that's supposed to weaken my statements or make me look suspicious somehow.

your reads are garbage.

1) does anyone ACTUALLY believe that I, as scum, would willingly pick a 1v1 against town!skitter? I've been pushing her slot since the beginning. that would mean you have two of the strongest town players in this game, who are also familiar with both my towngame and my scumgame, and I'm staring them in the face and drawing their attention like this. in what universe is that how I aim to play around skitter? that makes no fucking sense.

2) look at my ISO. I'm constantly engaging with people, evaluating my reads, picking things apart, and pushing. even though I'm no longer focusing on auro, it's clear I'm still trying to sort him. I'm trying to sort everyone. I'm clearly invested in this game and trying to solve. look at my posts and say to my face that this is a scummy ISO.

- Daenerys

not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????

either you're blind or you're scum.

- Daenerys

The Gamma distraction feels pretty boring to me, and I can totally imagine Gamma as stubborn/frustrated town justifying his actions. The emotional reaction does seem a little disproportionate, marking that for later study.

MURDERKITTY is still the correct lim.

-Dumbass

this doesn't really sound like you think he's scum with murder imo.

- Daenerys

I'm pretty sure dumbo's been clear about thinking murdercat is the bomb? I could be miscrediting a post to them tho

they specifically said they

don't

think murder is the bomb

Murdercat probably isn't the bomb though

Catboiii!

-Dumbass

this is also just completely irrelevant to my point, which was that 1146 makes it sound like auro thinks you're town, which doesn't jive with his later post saying he thinks you have partner equity with murder. once again, you've made it about murder's alignment when my point has nothing to do with murder's alignment. how would auro thinking murder is the bomb change my point?

- Daenerys

now if you actually READ my ISO and THINK about the position I've taken on dumb & dumber, you should realize that it makes zero sense for me to put myself in a position where I am constantly antagonizing them if I'm scum and they're town. and you should also see that I'm clearly putting in effort and care about solving this damn game.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

ftr I really only check into this game once or twice per day because logging into the hydra account to a lot of work
#lazy
reading

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

more votes on gamma please. or on dumb & dumber although I doubt I'd be able to push through a wagon on them today.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

wtf? in hidden temple I was a fucking wet napkin. my attitude is just me. my engagement, my proactivity, my solving, my sorting, is all town and wasn't evident in hidden temple whatsoever.

??????????

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Very conflicted. I think his posting isolated is very scummy but I also can buy his excuse that he was burned out by the BooneyToonz game and I did like his post where he cased Penguin. Would yeet in lack of other better wagons.

Here’s the thing: you ALSO saw what happened in Among Us. Tell me Murder’s play/reception differs from that game at all.

Yeah he felt more aggressive and solvey in Among Us compared to here.

MURDERCAT [6, E-3] outworldER, Akarin, xRECKONERx, alisae, sircakez, battle mage (thegoldenparadox)
The only scum on this in that game, SirCakez, voted around the middle of what was need to lim
NM is in the same place if murdercat is a miselim this game
So like, how is my NM vote bad given that?

You can't pull one rando-ass wagon out of another game with different players and compare it to this specific situation and act like you're cleared now.

1. presupposes murderkitty town
   
2. correlates to an unrelated game with
   1. a different playerlist
      
   2. a different design
      
   3. a different size
      
   4. different wagons and voting structure
3. nm isn't sircakez

Thanks Penguin for repeating my thoughts

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

are we in the same fucking universe???

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t think murdercat’s play is substantially different from that game/any of his other town games, and the fact he’s getting early pressure to this degree tells me he’s town
In booneytoonz XV I recall there was a D1 wagon on him but it was rather short-lived
Meanwhile like, every other town game I’ve seen from him he’s been rather suspected. So imo the trend is “if murdercat gets sussed a lot early he is town”

he was scum in that booneytoonz though??

who even cares about MC meta? he is underwhelming as hell here reading him on that he is more likely scum

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Heya, i'm still not doing super awesome. Lilith i'll try to get to ur posts but i dont want to promise itll happen today

Auro's response to u on my behalf was fairly accurate tho

(This is more of a checkin to say i'm not ignoring this, but rather that i dont have tons of energy rn)

~ skitter

np, hope you are able to rest and feel better soon.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

don't fucking shade me if you don't want your words to be scrutinized. you're wildly misreading everything and responding with completely irrelevant statements as if that's supposed to weaken my statements or make me look suspicious somehow.

your reads are garbage.

1) does anyone ACTUALLY believe that I, as scum, would willingly pick a 1v1 against town!skitter? I've been pushing her slot since the beginning. that would mean you have two of the strongest town players in this game, who are also familiar with both my towngame and my scumgame, and I'm staring them in the face and drawing their attention like this. in what universe is that how I aim to play around skitter? that makes no fucking sense.

2) look at my ISO. I'm constantly engaging with people, evaluating my reads, picking things apart, and pushing. even though I'm no longer focusing on auro, it's clear I'm still trying to sort him. I'm trying to sort everyone. I'm clearly invested in this game and trying to solve. look at my posts and say to my face that this is a scummy ISO.

- Daenerys

not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????

either you're blind or you're scum.

- Daenerys

The Gamma distraction feels pretty boring to me, and I can totally imagine Gamma as stubborn/frustrated town justifying his actions. The emotional reaction does seem a little disproportionate, marking that for later study.

MURDERKITTY is still the correct lim.

-Dumbass

this doesn't really sound like you think he's scum with murder imo.

- Daenerys

I'm pretty sure dumbo's been clear about thinking murdercat is the bomb? I could be miscrediting a post to them tho

they specifically said they

don't

think murder is the bomb

Murdercat probably isn't the bomb though

Catboiii!

-Dumbass

this is also just completely irrelevant to my point, which was that 1146 makes it sound like auro thinks you're town, which doesn't jive with his later post saying he thinks you have partner equity with murder. once again, you've made it about murder's alignment when my point has nothing to do with murder's alignment. how would auro thinking murder is the bomb change my point?

- Daenerys

now if you actually READ my ISO and THINK about the position I've taken on dumb & dumber, you should realize that it makes zero sense for me to put myself in a position where I am constantly antagonizing them if I'm scum and they're town. and you should also see that I'm clearly putting in effort and care about solving this damn game.

- Daenerys

wtf? in hidden temple I was a fucking wet napkin. my attitude is just me. my engagement, my proactivity, my solving, my sorting, is all town and wasn't evident in hidden temple whatsoever.

??????????

- Daenerys

are we in the same fucking universe???

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

once again, if you think that my play here and in hidden temple is at all the same, I like....... don't fucking know what will make it through to your head because we are in totally different universes here. there was

nothing

towny or proactive or engaged about my play in hidden temple. I'd also like responses to what I said because it really seems like you have either not stopped to think about anything I've done this game and how it could possibly be scum-indicative....... or you're just scum.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I can try to be more present here but I need something to grab me and rn nothing is.

Cakez, you seem pretty uninvested this game. I'd be glad if you can change that.

-Dumbass

I'm not getting good reads on anyone and like I said I dislike logging into the hydra account.
And there's a lot of arguing that is making me glaze over.
Lilith is transparently town anyways.

I think I'd work well with Cakez. His lack of investment is a mild concern and I'd rather no concerns at all, but the stronger point is that I think an invested Cakez would be better for the game, independent of your own play.

-Dumbass

When have we ever worked well together? iirc you always diss on me then try to miselim me.
I'm letting Lilith take charge on reading you anyways. I don't have good faith about reading either of you and Lilith is just better.

I'm continuously getting this feeling that

Daenerys and Dragons

vs

Dumb and Dumber

is not TvT

Gonna need more here boss.

I don't see a tangible difference between your attitude this game and the one you had in hidden temple
so that's part of why I'm not exactly receptive to what you're saying rn

I was in Hidden Temple and this is outrageously false.

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I'm so steamed about this game. usually a good sign that I'm arguing with scum.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

this is how I always react to people trying to shade me when I'm being super fucking obvtown.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

now if you actually READ my ISO and THINK about the position I've taken on dumb & dumber, you should realize that it makes zero sense for me to put myself in a position where I am constantly antagonizing them if I'm scum and they're town. and you should also see that I'm clearly putting in effort and care about solving this damn game.

your shading me does not make sense if you've actually thought about where I am in this game. if you stopped and thought about this for a second, you should see that I have no reason to be constantly pushing town!dumb & dumber if I'm scum.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

once again - look at my ISO. look at me pushing, sorting, engaging, and progressing this game. yeah, I think I'm the most obvtown slot in this game.

don't talk to me about vitriol when you called me a dense fucker for trying to engage with you about murder.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

like I'm not even mean until after you said "fuck off." before that I was just questioning your reads because they actually make no sense. if you want to say my attitude stinks, fine. "raw vitriol" is just hypocritical and not even true.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

1064 is a DIRECT RESPONSE to my post, how am I not supposed to take it personally?
1066 is an addendum to 1064, which was, again, a DIRECT RESPONSE to me.

explain to me how I'm supposed to read your mind that these weren't directed to me even though the post was a direct response to mine.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don't believe your read on me has been made in good faith, or considers the entirety of my play in this game, so yeah, I have a problem with it. I have a problem with all reads that I don't think are formed in good faith, I just happen to be more personally invested in the reads on me.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

like I'm not even mean until after you said "fuck off." before that I was just questioning your reads because they actually make no sense. if you want to say my attitude stinks, fine. "raw vitriol" is just hypocritical and not even true.

- Daenerys

Maybe my words were off, but that's another of my personal challenges is finding the words to convey my thoughts appropriately.
As for my telling you to fuck off, what you were telling me to do felt like a waste of my time. I'm not interested in backreading for that stuff rn. The most I'm intending to backread for atp is to find who would make sense as scum rn in a general sense. Maybe I'll end up concluding you're town when I do that but I'm not going to

want

to townread you if it feels like I'm only doing it because you got upset. So let me read in MY way on MY time.

okay - if it wasn't clear, I meant the specific series of posts I made on page 48. I wanted you to actually think about what it meant for the game if I was scum and put myself in a position where I was deliberately antagonizing a town!skitter and town!auro repeatedly, with no visible benefit to myself, because that doesn't make sense to me as a strategy that any scum would make. going up against town!dumb & dumber would be fucking

terrifying

and I am hard-pressed to imagine anyone as scum being willing to throw themselves into a 1v1 with them like that.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

and you completely ignoring that feels like you really didn't think about whether I made sense as scum in a general sense and therefore it feels like you're just picking and choosing what you think about in order to make my slot into a potential wagon.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Honestly lilith has felt pretty obvtown to me too but this is exhausting to read through

sry. probably going to take another break from the thread.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

tbh I skimmed this Lilith/Gamma back and forth with one eye and nothing really grabbed me

If one of y’all think there’s a particularly AI post somewhere in all this back and forth, feel free to link it (and if you’ve already made this point I’d appreciate you just linking *that* post)

1230/1231 sums up my points most succinctly.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

more votes on gamma please. or on dumb & dumber although I doubt I'd be able to push through a wagon on them today.

- Daenerys

Didn't you say to never flip skitter D1? Or was that someone else?

I was quoting mena when I said that. I said to never townread her D1. I'm kind of at the point where I think my read is strong enough that I might want to elim her D1, but since it seems like no one else is really considering them I don't really see the point.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

boop

[Daenerys and Dragons]

don't really trust gamma or skitter's turnaround on me. gamma probably still my preferred elim.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I was quoting mena when I said that. I said to never townread her D1. I'm kind of at the point where I think my read is strong enough that I might want to elim her D1, but since it seems like no one else is really considering them I don't really see the point.

Oh right, ok I think someone else said that then. Or I'm making it up

? no I think I did say it, but I was quoting mena when I said it

^^^ Auro’s posting with you has been weird (I didn’t think his posting when y’all first got at it was weird, and actually thought you were being weird, but ever since then his posting wrt is off) but that’s also something I don’t have the energy to suss out as AI or just personality plus I really like the other half of the hydra

which post was this in response to/who is "you"?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

however, as mena once said, skitter is a bad D1 elim. I’m not really interested in pursuing their elimination today, but I’m very much not convinced that they’re town. when I get back I’ll try to be more involved in sorting other slots for today’s elim.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I mean I swing wildly between "this has to be scum!dumb & dumber" and "oh god what if I lead a miselim on town!skitter and then town is just royally FORKED" pretty much on the hour

more votes = good pressure though

and sometimes I have faith enough in my read to think, fuck it I should just case them already

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

also as a blanket apology, I am sorry for coming here and blowing up in the thread. I'm trying to be better about it and taking time away to cool down when needed.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I strongly dislike gamma, but hard to tell if that’s being skewed by me disliking his misunderstanding pretty much everything I say. I feel like that interaction was me trying to repeatedly explain why I don’t make sense as scum and he accused me of taking his statements personally and acted like that invalidated everything I said, but... I was just calling him out on a read that made zero sense. Like.. are we not here to argue about things? If I try to disprove a read that I think isn’t made in good faith or make someone rethink their logic then I’m somehow taking it personally? I literally don’t/didn’t feel personally affronted, I’m just playing the game, and now I feel like I’m supposed to feel shame for doing so. I get riled up, sure, but I don’t think I was “spewing raw vitriol”?? I was clearly getting frustrated that he literally didn’t read the content of my posts and went straight to attacking me.

- when I talked about auro’s read on gamma not really seeming congruous in different posts, gamma brought up whether auro thought murder was the bomb (?? not relevant)
- when I talked about infinity and gamma not caring about finding scum and settling for an easy NM wagon, gamma brought up murder not being scum (?? not relevant)
- whenever I do pretty much anything, gamma calls it emotional and acts like my content doesn’t exist
- when I called him out on his logic for scum!me, gamma ignored the actual words I said and attacked me for it on a personal level, when it wasn’t a personal argument
- when I continued to call him out on it, he called my posts “raw vitriol” - I really don’t think they were, I’m trying to either disprove his read or make him rethink it, I don’t think I said anything mean or personal towards him
- and he acted like me having anything other than a 100% calm response was grounds to basically ignore everything I was saying
- he ignored all of my content in favor of waxing on about how it was basically my fault he wasn’t listening to me, when he could have just read my damn post
- he did that when I was trying to engage him about murder too, so I feel like there’s a pattern here of avoiding interactions by making it personal and responding to things with completely irrelevant things
- he compared this game to Hidden Temple which is seriously probably my worst scumgame of all time. This is so so so far from reality that I cannot believe someone thinks that my play is similar to that game
- he compared this game to Cards of Destiny which, again, is probably one of my worse scumgames.
- if you think my play in this game is anything like these two games, you are in another universe. or just scum.
- if you look at my play in this game outside of dumb & dumber and think I’d be playing like this as scum, you must either have a really incredible impression of my scumgame (doesn’t make much sense if the two scumgames you’ve seen are the two just mentioned above, which are in like my bottom 3 games). or just scum.
- and if you seriously posit scum!me intentionally going up against town!skitter, you are either really not thinking this through. or just scum.
- by occam’s razor: just scum.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

like seriously I have to repeat myself four times while gamma is accusing me of overreacting and I’m just trying to show that his reasoning doesn’t make sense/is scummy.

your reads are garbage.

1) does anyone ACTUALLY believe that I, as scum, would willingly pick a 1v1 against town!skitter? I've been pushing her slot since the beginning. that would mean you have two of the strongest town players in this game, who are also familiar with both my towngame and my scumgame, and I'm staring them in the face and drawing their attention like this. in what universe is that how I aim to play around skitter? that makes no fucking sense.

2) look at my ISO. I'm constantly engaging with people, evaluating my reads, picking things apart, and pushing. even though I'm no longer focusing on auro, it's clear I'm still trying to sort him. I'm trying to sort everyone. I'm clearly invested in this game and trying to solve. look at my posts and say to my face that this is a scummy ISO.

- Daenerys

not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????

either you're blind or you're scum.

- Daenerys

now if you actually READ my ISO and THINK about the position I've taken on dumb & dumber, you should realize that it makes zero sense for me to put myself in a position where I am constantly antagonizing them if I'm scum and they're town. and you should also see that I'm clearly putting in effort and care about solving this damn game.

- Daenerys

once again, if you think that my play here and in hidden temple is at all the same, I like....... don't fucking know what will make it through to your head because we are in totally different universes here. there was

nothing

towny or proactive or engaged about my play in hidden temple. I'd also like responses to what I said because it really seems like you have either not stopped to think about anything I've done this game and how it could possibly be scum-indicative....... or you're just scum.

- Daenerys

now if you actually READ my ISO and THINK about the position I've taken on dumb & dumber, you should realize that it makes zero sense for me to put myself in a position where I am constantly antagonizing them if I'm scum and they're town. and you should also see that I'm clearly putting in effort and care about solving this damn game.

your shading me does not make sense if you've actually thought about where I am in this game. if you stopped and thought about this for a second, you should see that I have no reason to be constantly pushing town!dumb & dumber if I'm scum.

- Daenerys

I don't believe your read on me has been made in good faith, or considers the entirety of my play in this game, so yeah, I have a problem with it. I have a problem with all reads that I don't think are formed in good faith, I just happen to be more personally invested in the reads on me.

- Daenerys

like I'm not even mean until after you said "fuck off." before that I was just questioning your reads because they actually make no sense. if you want to say my attitude stinks, fine. "raw vitriol" is just hypocritical and not even true.

- Daenerys

Maybe my words were off, but that's another of my personal challenges is finding the words to convey my thoughts appropriately.
As for my telling you to fuck off, what you were telling me to do felt like a waste of my time. I'm not interested in backreading for that stuff rn. The most I'm intending to backread for atp is to find who would make sense as scum rn in a general sense. Maybe I'll end up concluding you're town when I do that but I'm not going to

want

to townread you if it feels like I'm only doing it because you got upset. So let me read in MY way on MY time.

okay - if it wasn't clear, I meant the specific series of posts I made on page 48. I wanted you to actually think about what it meant for the game if I was scum and put myself in a position where I was deliberately antagonizing a town!skitter and town!auro repeatedly, with no visible benefit to myself, because that doesn't make sense to me as a strategy that any scum would make. going up against town!dumb & dumber would be fucking

terrifying

and I am hard-pressed to imagine anyone as scum being willing to throw themselves into a 1v1 with them like that.

- Daenerys

and you completely ignoring that feels like you really didn't think about whether I made sense as scum in a general sense and therefore it feels like you're just picking and choosing what you think about in order to make my slot into a potential wagon.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I feel like it’s understandable to be frustrated when someone doesn’t seem to be interacting with you in good faith, and then gamma accuses me of overreacting and attacks me for it, which I feel is even less in good faith. gamma’s entire interactions with/mentions of me are pretty much just dismissals of any content I have and refusals to interact with me because I’m “too emotional” while simultaneously attacking me in an emotional way. Again, beyond frustration, I don’t think I was overly emotional, I don’t think I overreacted, I disagreed with reads and called them out for being either bad or coming from scum, and then repeatedly explained the reason I said that. Meanwhile, gamma was busy telling me that my posts aren’t valid if I show any signs of frustration so really it’s my fault he’s not interacting with me in good faith. I don’t think this is town.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

your reads are garbage.

1) does anyone ACTUALLY believe that I, as scum, would willingly pick a 1v1 against town!skitter? I've been pushing her slot since the beginning. that would mean you have two of the strongest town players in this game, who are also familiar with both my towngame and my scumgame, and I'm staring them in the face and drawing their attention like this. in what universe is that how I aim to play around skitter? that makes no fucking sense.

2) look at my ISO. I'm constantly engaging with people, evaluating my reads, picking things apart, and pushing. even though I'm no longer focusing on auro, it's clear I'm still trying to sort him. I'm trying to sort everyone. I'm clearly invested in this game and trying to solve. look at my posts and say to my face that this is a scummy ISO.

- Daenerys

not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????

either you're blind or you're scum.

- Daenerys

I know these replies is not for me, but I want to know something. Scum!you are willingly picking 1v1 against town!Skitter is also not impossible despite you both know each other playstyles both town+scum? It can be a good strategy to use so that scum!you can be townreaded by all/most of the players at least? And town!Skitter has to prove to the rest of us that you're a scum here. You may be (?) can't play around town!Skitter, but you may (?) can play around enough people to save yourselves from the elimination? And everyone tries to improve their game, so that doesn't mean scum!you don't improve your game here especially knowing that town!Skitter is here. This isn't my read on you/Skitter, I'm clearing that maybe (?) all of it isn't that impossible.

In a vacuum I can see what you’re saying, I think it doesn’t make sense to keep this going in the context of this game though. skitter was townreading me at the beginning of the game -> scum!me deliberately antagonizes her? doesn’t make much sense. skitter was townreading me again after me vs auro -> scum!me continues to antagonize skitter and invite her scrutiny on me? I don’t think that makes much sense either. This would be a really risky play for me to make without much benefit, because there are many other ways for me to try to seem towny than antagonizing a player who knows how to read me really well.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I'm not even directly pushing you yet, I'm just trying to talk on my thoughts, so your explosive reaction seems overly defensive

Agreed. Town can be defensive too, I myself a defensive person, but Lilith's defensiveness is not something I see town usually do.

I really don’t feel like I’m being defensive....... I just think it’s crazy to consider my play as something scum would be doing against town!skitter. And I feel like gamma is repeatedly ignoring my content in favor of dismissing me for being too emotional.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

once again - look at my ISO. look at me pushing, sorting, engaging, and progressing this game. yeah, I think I'm the most obvtown slot in this game.

- Daenerys

Don't get mad but I saw this exact same attitude of

obsessive town solver

scum game in one of my previous games and most of the players fell for it and the mafia won.

........ okay? “scum were able to fake it once” doesn’t mean something isn’t towny... they were just able to replicate it as scum. Progressing the game and solving and trying to sort people is a pro-town thing to do. Townies want to do it. Scum don’t want the game to progress. Therefore it is towny.

Is there an argument that scum can look like they’re trying to progress the game but not actually doing so? yes. But then the onus would be on you (or gamma, or whoever is trying to say this doesn’t make someone towny) to prove why that person is not actually helping advance the game. The onus isn’t on me to prove that something I did that’s inherently towny isn’t actually scummy.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@salsabil I can’t tell if debating whether me getting into a 1v1 with skitter could be scum-motivated is an actual argument you want to pursue or just something you were commenting on. If it’s actually something you want to discuss, I can talk more about it.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Hey, Salsabil is missing some context.

@Salsabil, Skitter30 (the other head of this hydra, Dumber) is a highly reputed player and scary slot to roll scum against.
She also has had a high read rate (100% I think) on Lilith's alignment games they've played together previously.

What Lilith is arguing is that for scum!Lilith, taking such continuous aggressive stances as scum against a slot that has proved to read her well is a silly, suicidal move.

Leave that aside - even if she did that anyway as a crazy method to get townread, and now that both heads of my slot declare townreads on her... pushing on us in this position is *even sillier* for scum!Lilith to make. I presume she'd rather just stay mum and focus elsewhere, kill us off N1, and coast off our read on her if she was scum.

-Dumbass

I understand completely. My point (or problem) is, I didn't play with any of you before, so literally have no idea how are you guys playing as a town/scum. So it's really tough for me to believe all of your meta on each other as I don't who is who here. I'm trying to build up my read on what I'm seeing in this game and only in this game. Do I make sense?

1310 was supposed to be a watered down version for you that you could understand without meta - regardless of my history with skitter, it’s a really risky move for me to deliberately antagonize someone who is townreading me in order to try to get other people to townread me, when I could just get the other people to townread me some other way. High risk, low reward.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

again, I can’t tell if this is actually something you want to discuss at length because you think it’s AI or you just commented on the theory part. I’m happy to go more in depth if the former, otherwise I think we can probably drop this until you feel like you’ve read enough to start forming a read.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

surface level towny, but I’m wary of him seeming towny to me in a prior game where he was scum, so probably closer to null overall. probably not interested in elim unless our other reads are wrong/we end up needing to reevaluate gamestate.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

unfortunately it’s in a private forum, which I no longer have access to, so I can’t even reread to compare. I just have my vague memories of the game.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Hey I'm around but I'm feeling like shit because I got some bad news (nothing serious just really frustrating) so yeah. I still need to read the last few pages.

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Fwiw i'm at the point where i agree with that

(Lilith i'll walk u through how and why my read changed when i have more energy)

~ skitter

I'm more interested in Auto's thoughts here

V/LA for a day, work shiz needs heavy attention

I super quickly surfed through previous pages, D&D is obvtown, and hot take: Gamma feels gut-town too, and I still want to flip MC. It's a gut take, so I won't be defending Gamma.

Salsabil, if you'd like me to explain any post from my slot I'll be glad to (I can see how they'd be hard to read).

Dragons, I think it's been the other way round, no? You get paranoid of Mastermind!Dumbass every game and try to get me killed - when I say I think I'd work well, it's what I hope for the next time

Crayons, if my posting was off, why not explore that? It's odd that you remain so passive about it.

-Dumbass

Since when?

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Not much else to comment on those pages
Really stuck with this game Lilith has a lot better grasp then me here

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Which thoughts in specific?

Weren't you angling for my lim for the most part in Doubles Mafia?

-Dumbass

Your read on us (not skitter's)
Yeah but so were you on me

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@mod can we get a prod on NM please

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????

either you're blind or you're scum.

- Daenerys

right, this + the conviction you have on this point is what ultimately changed my mind

~ skitter

this happened before you said you weren’t townreading me. Can you explain your progression here?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

are there specific things you want to talk about?

[Daenerys and Dragons]

in response to 1335:
- I don’t feel like your read on me should have needed to be dependent on how I approach you, given I’m under the impression that this isn’t how you’ve read me in the past. What’s different about this game that makes this the primary factor?
- I am pretty sure you said at least twice before this that you were townreading me - once at the very beginning of the game, and once after the initial me vs. auro. at what point were you no longer townreading me?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

when you said you were explicitly not townreading me, it was already after you had stated a prior townread and I had antagonized you while you were townreading me. were you not considering that when you said you weren’t townreading me? that was already information that you had at that time. when did this change your read?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

here is the second time you said you townread me, which is what I'm referring to (and this is after me vs. auro):

Lilith <3
I hope ur ok

(On a game note i probably disagree with auro and am leaning town on you)

~ skitter

[Daenerys and Dragons]

not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????

either you're blind or you're scum.

- Daenerys

right, this + the conviction you have on this point is what ultimately changed my mind

~ skitter

if you don't think you said you townread me, then how can you agree with me that I was antagonizing you after you said you townread me?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

to take a step back:

1) you're now saying that you don't think you expressed a townread on me. if you believe this is true, then how do you find my point valid if my point is dependent on a gamestate where I'm pushing you while you're townreading me?

2) if you do agree with my point, then the part where I was pushing your slot while you were townreading me would have already happened by the time you posted this:

i would like to say i explicilty do not townread the other hydra and i feel like lilith ignored my overture trying to sort her slot

i really, really dislike gamma's approach to the MURDERCAT wagon, and am somewhat inclined to switch my vote there, but i won't cuz auro does not quite agree. although actually the more i read i'm not sure that he's scum; he feels kinda like misunderstood and pissed off town. also i hope you have a better day tom <3

i still feel like MURDERCAT is being grossly lurkish and underwhelming

~ skitter

so it seems like you didn't take that into consideration when you said you didn't townread me then, but now you are considering it. what changed?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????

either you're blind or you're scum.

- Daenerys

right, this + the conviction you have on this point is what ultimately changed my mind

~ skitter

if you don't think you said you townread me, then how can you agree with me that I was antagonizing you after you said you townread me?

- Daenerys

it was more of a generic 'i don't think you would be antagnozing us in general' vs 'i don't think you would be antaganozing us specifically after i townread you'
( i skimmed a lot in the past couple of days and kinda like got the gist but didn't necessasrily catch every word)

~ skitter

again, I was already antagonizing you plenty before you said you didn't townread me, so what changed between then and now?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????

either you're blind or you're scum.

- Daenerys

right, this + the conviction you have on this point is what ultimately changed my mind

~ skitter

if you don't think you said you townread me, then how can you agree with me that I was antagonizing you after you said you townread me?

- Daenerys

it was more of a generic 'i don't think you would be antagnozing us in general' vs 'i don't think you would be antaganozing us specifically after i townread you'
( i skimmed a lot in the past couple of days and kinda like got the gist but didn't necessasrily catch every word)

~ skitter

? it's stated in the original post you responded to

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

again, I was already antagonizing you plenty before you said you didn't townread me, so what changed between then and now?

it felt like you were trying to draw out the auro thing a bit when he was trying to disengage, adn that you were calling him scummy for trying to disengage, and that you didn't want to engage with my head

uh... yes, this is all true. is there a reason my explanations for why these things happened weren't satisfactory?

then the emotion in the gamma stuff outweighed that

so it's not about whether I'm pushing you after all?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Can you link me a game where scum!lilith showed this level of proactiveness or emotion

i can't, no (i.e. i don't ahve an example)
but she's not quite feeling like town-lilith to me yet either and i'm currently trying to figure out what i make of that

~ skitter

can you explain this post?

- Daenerys

really shouldn't use the same forum skin on both accounts

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I see the logic that if I'm scum, I'm more likely to try to avoid engaging with you specifically. given our history, what made you think this was more likely to come from scum!me than town!me?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

and I'd also like to bring up that you've been able to read me perfectly fine in the past with minimal engagement, and here I spent several days interacting with other people where you should have been able to observe my play. why does the possibility that this is how scum!me approaches your slot outweigh the rest of my play in this game?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don't disagree, I think everyone who knows me/you is on the same page about how I would deal with rolling scum (avoid as much as possible, kill as fast as possible)

what gave you the impression that I was scared of engaging with you?

what do you mean by "emotional scumrange"?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

a lot of it is trying to gauge your activity and engagement and how much energy you have and where you're spending it. most of what you were posting felt kinda flat, and somewhat through-the-motions-y to a certain extent. the auro/you thing also very much through me off

would also like some more explanation on this

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

like.. what posts seemed like I was going through the motions or were scum-indicative for me?

what made you think this was scum!me avoiding engaging with you and not town!me just not feeling like there was anything to engage?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Spoiler:

I'm still not finding many strong reads here.
I want to say Lilith and I were very excited to roll town this game and we don't want to deal with the bs we always get, and this arguing is getting lilith pissed off already
So if other D&D hydra could do something else unless something relevant has changed I'd appreciate it

-dragons

sorry I was not able to spend as much time as I wanted on this today.

@penguin are you currently townreading dumb&dumber? when/why did you start townreading skitter? is the read based on something other than how skitter is reading you?

@skitter similar question. when/why did you start townreading penguin? what changed from the early game that made you switch your read?

- Daenerys

Do you mind looking in his ISO and pointing to where that started?

On an unrelated note, I didn’t really like gamma’s reaction to me vs auro, repeatedly saying it was pointless and then not bothering to try to redirect or offer any game-related content. I don’t have much, if any, experience playing with him but I feel like he doesn’t really feel interested in solving.

- Daenerys

Re: murdercat pushing penguin, I think town!penguin is a deceivingly easy-looking push for scum to make. I’m not sold on town!penguin but I think it’s worth looking into who the top wagon was when murder tried to wagon penguin to see whether it could have been scum!murder trying to divert wagon away from a scumbuddy. Need to sleep so I’ll do that tomorrow after work hopefully.

@skitter what implications do you think the stalled gamestate has?

- Daenerys

MURDERCAT himself was the leading wagon.

oh lol. definitely some motivation there to try to create a different wagon then

They seem decent enough to me, leaning toward town.

can you explain why?

Penguin. It feels like the active lurking and filler posting is basically a playstyle thing for him and he hasn't really scumtold or towntold, he's just there. He could be scum but I don't think the stuff murdercat is pointing at says a lot either way and I have my own issues with murder's posting.

what issues do you have with murder?

- Daenerys

posts like these ^

what about these posts said "scum-indicative" to you?

and idk i feel like town-you usually engages with me? and the fact that you didn't was strange and notable? like i think by default you'd engage with me in some way?

but.. I did engage with you, I asked you and penguin about your reads on each other, which you've quoted in the posts you listed as scummy

and infinity the auro/lilith thing i was discounting because it was ate-y and largely driven by irl things, it seemed, didn't really seem like her alignemnt had much to do with it. like it was nai and she was having a bad day. coudlnt' read into that really

~ skitter

so when I do something towny, it can be explained away by my oog state but when I do something "scummy," it can't...?

at the time it felt scummy to me. i made a conscious effort to bump it up to nai recognizing that it was for irl reasons

~ skitter

what was scummy about my reaction?

Lilith <3
I hope ur ok

(On a game note i probably disagree with auro and am leaning town on you)

~ skitter

again, you clearly said you were leaning town on me after me vs. auro, so you're going to have to explain how this post lines up with you now saying you were scumreading me for it the whole time.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

what about these posts said "scum-indicative" to you?

they felt to me like examples of you interacting with the game via incidental questions that felt kinda meh and like like you were forcing yourself to engage (this is basically my model of prototypical scum-lilith, and what you were doing in c9++)

I feel like I had plenty of content after this that you haven't mentioned.

yeah.. to some extent I was forcing myself to engage that day, because I was having a nice time taking a break from the site. Unless you are trying to argue that this has been present throughout all of my posts this game, I don't really see how this would have overridden my later content (which occurred after this but before you stated you were not townreading me). what were your thoughts on me interacting with gamma and infinity later on about murder?

so when I do something towny, it can be explained away by my oog state but when I do something "scummy," it can't...?

wut? i literally just said that it seemed scummy to me but i was actiavely not reading into it was probably for irl reasons. i feel like that whole episode should be considered nai.
i'm not sure how you came to this conclusion/accusation when i literally just said the exact opposite

you were responding to infinity saying it was towny, so I assumed you were agreeing that the emotion was towny. it's clear now that that's not what you meant.

what was scummy about my reaction?

we both felt like you were looking for reasons to scumread auro, and weren't trying to engage with him to sort him
and that you way overreacted and made a mountain out of a molehill

(auro really disliked that interaction and has actively been trying to avoid another such one, and i think that's where a lot of the 'weird auro' vibes are coming from)

me pushing him when he says weird and vague things to discredit me is... absolutely trying to sort him, and auro should probably know why that is/I assumed he already knew.
I admitted I overreacted on the emotional side of things and left the thread, but the specific things he said that I pushed him on are things I would have pushed him on regardless of my mental state. they're still things I think are scummy, and my questions were meant to get him to explain why he said the things he said. that's something I always do.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

This is absolutely the reason I couldn't be bothered to engage with you, like we just go around and around in circles. I don't think this was very productive for me and it's kind of a waste of effort if I already know how this is how it's going to go. I don't feel like it's scummy for me to recognize that upfront and focus on the slot I think I will be able to read better. Again, I understand the logic that I would try to avoid you if I were scum, but I really don't feel like the rest of my play justifies the assumption that this isn't town!me feeling like engaging you won't be very fruitful.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t really feel like you have a leg to stand on in saying me ignoring you seemed scum-indicative. asking me “is there anything you want to talk about” and my not having a response is like.... it’s not like you were actively asking me questions about the game and about my reads and I was avoiding responding. I’d said multiple times that I just didn’t have anything that I wanted to ask you about, but that doesn’t mean that I was scummily avoiding you. I just... didn’t have anything that I wanted to ask you about. And you seemed to not be taking my words at face value, as if I must have an ulterior motive.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

How I usually read people: they say things, I pick apart their logic and their arguments until I find something that doesn’t make sense to me.

this doesn’t work with you because I’ve seen you talk yourself out of these kinds of arguments. Therefore I don’t think it’s very useful for me to approach you the same way I do anyone else.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

This entire conversation is just an example of that. I have no idea if I can trust what you’re saying or if it’s scum!you talking yourself out of it like I’ve seen you do before. I still have no worse or better of a read than I did at the beginning pretty much.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I’m going back and rereading and I really didn’t feel like I was ignoring you at the time, I was interacting with auro more because he was just.. in the thread at the same time as me more often. And I just overall highly disagree with your perspective on this as being scummy.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

can you point out specific instances where you felt like I was being scummy by choosing to interact with auro and ignoring you? otherwise I don’t really get where you’re coming from on this.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I’m voting who I think is scum, I dropped a case for it, happy to discuss but nobody seems to have read it.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I agree that this conversation was unproductive and that’s why I didn’t really want to bother in the first place. would like skitter and auro to respond to 1393 at some point.

beyond that I really don’t have much else on my to do list.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

yes

[Daenerys and Dragons]

why’s that?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

not urgent, just at some point. preferably before I die.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

once again - look at my ISO. look at me pushing, sorting, engaging, and progressing this game. yeah, I think I'm the most obvtown slot in this game.

- Daenerys

Don't get mad but I saw this exact same attitude of

obsessive town solver

scum game in one of my previous games and most of the players fell for it and the mafia won.

........ okay? “scum were able to fake it once” doesn’t mean something isn’t towny... they were just able to replicate it as scum. Progressing the game and solving and trying to sort people is a pro-town thing to do. Townies want to do it. Scum don’t want the game to progress. Therefore it is towny.

Is there an argument that scum can look like they’re trying to progress the game but not actually doing so? yes. But then the onus would be on you (or gamma, or whoever is trying to say this doesn’t make someone towny) to prove why that person is not actually helping advance the game. The onus isn’t on me to prove that something I did that’s inherently towny isn’t actually scummy.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

The reason I brought it up is because it seemed like gamma had completely ignored 1) what position scum!me would have to have taken on a town!skitter and town!auro; and 2) the effort I was putting into the game. again, if he wanted to say I was scum despite that or because of it, fine, but he did not consider where my slot stood in the context of the game. he chose to create a false dichotomy between my slot and another slot in two different ways (me vs penguin and me vs dumb & dumber) and then was like “oh well I guess if lilith is in two dichotomies it should be her.” that’s the same mentality I’ve taken to reads as scum before, where I set up a chain of “logic” and then just use those points to draw “conclusions,” and ignore everything else about the actual play in the game.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

If those posts are pinging you, then it’s on you to prove why the rest of my ISO is not actually moving the game forward and is not town-motivated.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

{1278} = Don't agree with you cause like you overreacted on Dumbass ( Auro) earlier, Gamma Emerald overreacted with you too. Yes, he might have the wrong meta on you (which is according to you), but that doesn't necessarily scum indicative. Your reaction was also not calming when the 1v1 was going on. And he said that he has issues with communicating, that's why he was ignoring you which I feel genuine. Also, he may be doesn't solve the game like you're doing but I don't find him scum for this.

fine, let’s remove all the “emotional”-related things (once again, I feel like my points are not invalid just because I’m emotional, but I’m being treated like my content isn’t valid just because I’m frustrated)

Gamma’s perspective is like so far out of the realm of where my head’s at that it’s really difficult for me to believe that this is a town perspective.

- see 1432 - setting up false dichotomies and then going “oh welp guess this person must ~logically~ be scum” when that ignores all context of the game
- “wrong meta” is an understatement. you have to actively be looking at two of my worst scumgames at all time, where I rolled over like a napkin, and think that that kind of engagement is at all similar to how active or engaged I’ve been in this game.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

are you ignoring everything I said about you on purpose?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

But the point is the fact I haven't been actively searching for scum is part of how I play these days, but atp I'm pissed off enough to switch to active mode.

sup, what happened with this?

thanks for calling this out


a lot of spam in this game and going in circles
let's yeet Gamma or MC and move on
I don't really have a preference but Lilith wants Gamma more

These posts actually pinged me very hard because as I said earlier, in one of my previous games, one scum was literally doing this type of game solving play and deliberately showing that they were doing.. That's the reason for questioning you about your game solving nature here, not a theory based reason totally.

In defense of Lilith I will say she brought these up as a deliberate counter-example of the game where she was recently scum and not doing those things. Not like a LAMIST situation.

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@skitter and auro I’m really really sorry about D1. I think I got myself stuck in kill mode and couldn’t get myself out. And that’s probably the best way to describe why I felt so off. I think you guys are probably just town though.

I’m not particularly townreading gamma’s slot but I think gc trying to make a gamma wagon possible at eod was kinda suspicious.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

hi mena

[Daenerys and Dragons]

meh I don’t really feel that unless you think dumb & dumber is scum

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

like I think there were already several strong candidates for the recruit, so skitter/auro is kind of the only “hardbus” possibility that resulted in viable recruit candidacy.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

VOTE: green crayons

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

who was bussing? I don’t think bussing was required?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@infinity what do you mean by “shading murdercat”? also, why does thinking about who was “shading” murder but voting gamma lead you to me/catboi but not lead you to this post?

VOTE: gamma

For the reasons I stated before as to why i'd like vote him; plus I'm skeptical of his ATE in responding to lilith. lilith's reasons in her case post are also not wrong.


I know i unvoted MC but I'm fine with his elim too. I unvoted him earlier after his explanation of his penguin vote to me, but there's also still his vast lack of activity (not just in frequency of posts, but in pushing any suspicion forward beyond penguin after getting wagoned).

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I mean, I did just say I need to reread

Shading to me means directing some suspicion without a vote

idk I feel like you’re making a bit of a false dichotomy - like if I’m not townreading murder then I must be voting him or else it’s suspicious. but I had a much stronger scumread on someone else. and catboi was on the murder wagon. so neither of us being named makes much sense.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

sorted reads

catboi/d&d/salsabil
nm
yyotta/mena/infinity/gc <- elimpool

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

not sure if we should be trying to discuss the nk - @d&d do you guys think this is a useful discussion to have?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@infinity

why does thinking about who was “shading” murder but voting gamma lead you to me/catboi but not lead you to this post?

VOTE: gamma

For the reasons I stated before as to why i'd like vote him; plus I'm skeptical of his ATE in responding to lilith. lilith's reasons in her case post are also not wrong.


I know i unvoted MC but I'm fine with his elim too. I unvoted him earlier after his explanation of his penguin vote to me, but there's also still his vast lack of activity (not just in frequency of posts, but in pushing any suspicion forward beyond penguin after getting wagoned).

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

ok

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@skitter and auro I’m really really sorry about D1. I think I got myself stuck in kill mode and couldn’t get myself out. And that’s probably the best way to describe why I felt so off. I think you guys are probably just town though.

I’m not particularly townreading gamma’s slot but I think gc trying to make a gamma wagon possible at eod was kinda suspicious.

- Daenerys

<3
why do you think we're town now tho?

~ skitteR

mostly I didn't feel like that was you guys bussing murder. since we're back to discussing it, your slot would have been the only one to really gain any viability to be recruited after the flip (and therefore have the motivation that mena is ascribing for bussing), but I don't think you would have really needed to be on the wagon to gain that viability because you already had it. so it would have just been gratuitous bussing and I don't really think you would have gone about d1 like that, both in a vacuum and with the way our 1v1 was panning out. I think I worked myself into a state where I saw everything you were saying about the beginning of the day as bad faith, but once I saw the flip I realized I was probably just conf-biasing myself into feeling that way about the 1v1.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

lilith why are you voting gc?

infinity's positioning rn kinda looks like partners with gamma and mc but i'm not sure, if he's partners with gamma and mc, that he actually posititions himself this way, if that makes sense

my vibes from eod gamestate is that gamma's slot + MURDERKITTY were both scum tbh.

~ skitteR

gamma replacing out made me feel bad about how I acted towards both him and you. I don't townread his slot/actions but I'm willing to give some benefit of the doubt that I was just confbiasing myself on him in a similar way as I was on you guys.

if gamma slot is town then I think gc is really suspicious for how he behaved around the two wagons yesterday. I'm fine with gamma slot going first but obviously don't think we need to go there right away/we can pressure mena just fine without my vote necessarily being on him, but I don't really want to let gc skate by without scrutiny.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

gc was trying to pressure murdercat for most of the day, then towards the very end decided he wanted to vote gamma instead, and made some kind of awkward posts about my case being "not wrong" (which.. I think is just a really awkward way to give an opinion on someone else's case), and it felt like it was at a potential "turning point" (for want of a better word) where the wagon could have ended up on gamma if things had gone slightly differently.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

under that theory, i would have helped build the momentum on my scum teammate and then abandoned right at the fork-in-the-road between MC and Gamma, which is pretty bad play imo

well it would have been good play if we flipped town-gamma yesterday instead, i think is what she's saying

i do think that 'supporting the MC elim even when voting gamma' is actually +MC-parter, rather than underming you being a potential partner tho, especially since you're pulling this out as a reason to read the two of you as not-partners

~ skitteR

right, gc felt like he was trying to get the wagon off of murdercat and onto gamma instead, and at a point where I think the gamma wagon could have been viable if things had gone differently.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Green Crayons, what are your thoughts on Murderkitten? Please re-quote if I have missed them in earlier posts.

-Dumbass

I have minimal thoughts, and haven't express them.

Pretty neutral opinion. His vote switch from me to Penguin, after I expressed problems with Penguin (from Murder's prompting), I think is more suggestive of town than scum.

Otherwise I get nothing much AI from his play. His probing of my shadow unvote suspicions didn't feel like it was mining for an attack on me, so while I don't think that nets him town points, I don't find it suspicious.

Why would I not want to be on a miselim wagon? I wouldn't care if Infinity gets quick elim'd as maf. I'm hardly going to cop suspicion just for having voted him. Maybe you could argue my unvote was performative, which I'd accept even if it wasn't. But your current reasoning doesn't make sense. Why does it feel like you've already concluded I'm maf and are just trying to find things to justify your read?

this

ignores my interaction with murdercat so he can be have some sort of defense


while also

further winding up waiting for those 3/4 votes on GC so he can finally shift over

cat's recent play is pointedly suspicious or anti-town to the point I'm fancying that it's a purposeful strategy

cat's recent play is pointedly suspicious or anti-town to the point I'm fancying that it's a purposeful strategy

like, to take heat off the bomb?

That's the only thing that makes sense from a cat-scum POV. I don't think an otherwise context-less "let me do some just outright bad stuff so people might go 'too scummy to be scum'" is really a valid strategy. And I don't think that cat's play is indicates a noob level approach to the game where they are just falling into these bad plays.

Yeah, I think the obvious candidates for cat-scum doing a weird strategy to draw attention to herself and away from the bomb is either shadow or me, just in terms of votes and who has garnered attention.

Can't think of anyone else who would fit the bill, but maybe infinity?

reread a bit and I don't know if gc was as weird about murder's wagon as I thought. I still think the switch to gamma at the end of the day was kinda weird though (and like, my first reaction to those posts were "egh these words are awkward" and not "oh yay someone joining me on wagon")

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

oops I had quotes queued but then I didn't really think they were worth talking about. might try to look at these again later.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

if i were to vote rn, it'd be on gamma because of his interactions with GOT D&D + his insistence on defending the MC slot based on non-AI reasons

but i want to reread a little bit first before voting

To clarify, lilith: your case is Post 1278 on a gamma vote?

VOTE: gamma

For the reasons I stated before as to why i'd like vote him; plus I'm skeptical of his ATE in responding to lilith. lilith's reasons in her case post are also not wrong.


I know i unvoted MC but I'm fine with his elim too. I unvoted him earlier after his explanation of his penguin vote to me, but there's also still his vast lack of activity (not just in frequency of posts, but in pushing any suspicion forward beyond penguin after getting wagoned).

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I claim not our fault, plz see join date.

which D&D are you proposing to elim?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I think that’s supposed to be me - in which case: I think I’m pretty far out of my scumrange, I was scumreading gamma for what felt like incredibly bad faith responses to me, infinity should also be in the elimpool given how skittish he was of murder wagon until the end, and I highly doubt that both other scum were on gamma at eod, especially given that... I know I’m town.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

coincidentally (or maybe not coincidentally) I only started pushing gamma after he tried to defend murder with weird defenses

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

i think the simplest explanation for how eod1 happened is that both MURDERKITTY and gamma are scum. if gamma is town there's at least one scum in {other dnd, gc, and yyotta iirc}

~ skitteR

inclined to agree except I think gamma town -> scum!gc fairly definitively. and obviously I’m town

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Also can someone come up with a good reason for MCat being scum or is this just because he’s not a TR yet
I feel like most games MCat gets pressed early as town

VOTE: not_mafia
wynaut

Because murdercat is a much better wagon and an nm wagon is the epitome of lazy voting.

what about murdercat
you guys are probably way off base on him, he very often gets wagoned early like this as town rather than as scum
how can I not see the votes on murdercat as just a little bit lazy

Very conflicted. I think his posting isolated is very scummy but I also can buy his excuse that he was burned out by the BooneyToonz game and I did like his post where he cased Penguin. Would yeet in lack of other better wagons.

Here’s the thing: you ALSO saw what happened in Among Us. Tell me Murder’s play/reception differs from that game at all.

If you believe me about murdercat being a miselim why do you think I’m scum?

MURDERCAT [6, E-3] outworldER, Akarin, xRECKONERx, alisae, sircakez, battle mage (thegoldenparadox)
The only scum on this in that game, SirCakez, voted around the middle of what was need to lim
NM is in the same place if murdercat is a miselim this game
So like, how is my NM vote bad given that?

I don’t think murdercat’s play is substantially different from that game/any of his other town games, and the fact he’s getting early pressure to this degree tells me he’s town
In booneytoonz XV I recall there was a D1 wagon on him but it was rather short-lived
Meanwhile like, every other town game I’ve seen from him he’s been rather suspected. So imo the trend is “if murdercat gets sussed a lot early he is town”

BTXV just finished
So saying Murdercat still has 1 scumgame is a critical logic failure bordering on misrepresentation

hey penguin wanna join the juicy gamma wagon?

- Daenerys

You know what, do it. I fucking DARE you.

No one is bothering to honestly engage with me here so I’ll just let my flip speak for itself

I’ve tried to respond but I’m not getting any feeling that YOU actually care for what I’m saying.

And not to mention the fact you’re using a blatantly outdated point

No one is bothering to honestly engage with me here so I’ll just let my flip speak for itself

what a misrep. I asked you questions about the murder wagon.

If you think murder is town, then are people being actively opportunistic about wagoning him? What do you think about penguin convincing dumb&dumber to vote back on murder after auro voted NM for lolz?

and your response is to pretend that I’m not engaging with you?

- Daenerys

I kinda felt like I addressed that in another post
I don’t particularly feel like many scum are on murdercat, otherwise I wouldn’t be debating like this, I’d just lim the scum. But I feel like outside of Cakez and infinity, NM is the only one here who should have a decent idea of how murdercat is, but he just lazily voted murder

And not to mention the fact you’re using a blatantly outdated point

BTXV just finished

blatantly outdated point

just finished

By how I was acting you should have been able to infer I was referring to a recently completed game.
I’m beginning to suspect you’re scum and really not interacting in good faith here at all.

@MURDERCAT

what did you mean by “your one scum game”?
I feel like depending on this I have a solid binary of where scum is.
UNVOTE: because straight up stating NM is not involved in that binary

No one is bothering to honestly engage with me here so I’ll just let my flip speak for itself

what a misrep. I asked you questions about the murder wagon.

If you think murder is town, then are people being actively opportunistic about wagoning him? What do you think about penguin convincing dumb&dumber to vote back on murder after auro voted NM for lolz?

and your response is to pretend that I’m not engaging with you?

- Daenerys

I kinda felt like I addressed that in another post
I don’t particularly feel like many scum are on murdercat, otherwise I wouldn’t be debating like this, I’d just lim the scum. But I feel like outside of Cakez and infinity, NM is the only one here who should have a decent idea of how murdercat is, but he just lazily voted murder

Are you under the impression that NM does anything not lazily?
Why do you think he should “know how murdercat is” and that this is town!murder?

- Daenerys

He was in a game where town!murdercat was limmed D1

And honestly the biggest issue I fucking have is that MURDERCAT GETS TOWNIER AS THE GAME PROGRESSES AS TOWN. ELIMINATING HIM EARLY IS LEGITIMATELY SHIT PLAY.

not anymore
I s2g do you fuckers have any reading comprehension at all?

@MURDERCAT

what did you mean by “your one scum game”?
I feel like depending on this I have a solid binary of where scum is.
UNVOTE: because straight up stating NM is not involved in that binary

UNVOTE: because straight up stating NM is not involved in that binary

like holy shit how dense are you?????

Here's the thing: I legitimately don't actively solve early unless driven by emotions or something. I do this for three reasons: I'm lazy, it helps get through the most active stages of larger games where trying to keep up is nigh impossible, and it lowers my NK worth. That last point wasn't always a reason for it but after mini 2173 I realized I actually had enough impact to get NKed over reputation versus my play in that game, so now I deliberately sandbag to try to get farther, which I'm sure you've seen other players do. Flavor Leaf and mastina might be the leading names in that regard for me, though idrk if the latter qualifies. But the point is the fact I haven't been actively searching for scum is part of how I play these days, but atp I'm pissed off enough to switch to active mode.

And honestly the biggest issue I fucking have is that MURDERCAT GETS TOWNIER AS THE GAME PROGRESSES AS TOWN. ELIMINATING HIM EARLY IS LEGITIMATELY SHIT PLAY.

And my issue is you can't say that he doesn't as scum so it's nai. Stop relying solely on meta for which you don't have an established comparison.

it's bad.

Actually BTXV showed he really doesn't get townier as time passes in scumgames. He was wagoned in 7p and 5p limlo, predominantly by town iirc.
So no, I have an example of the converse, try again smartass.

@infinity
catboi’s post sums up most of it I think, have you read and responded to this?

Actually just looked at your ISO and you don’t seem to have mentioned this post at all, which is interesting because this is probably the biggest scumcase on murder so far, and you seemingly hard townread this slot before catboi replaced in. Is there a reason you haven’t responded to catboi on murder or engaged with catboi at all?

- Daenerys

I read the post, it didn't really do anything for me. Most of it is like, murder is making lazy pushes and reasoning because he's kinda being lazy this game. If you're interested I can respond to it in more depth

I don’t really need a response to the points in particular.

I find the argument “murder could be lazy as town” to just be not very appealing. Like, anyone can be lazy as town. They can also just be scum. Yall are saying murder is lazy!town here. Gamma says he’s lazy!town. NM is lazy as both alignments. Everyone else is putting in effort. who do we elim then if everyone suspicious just says they’re being lazy town? there needs to be a line drawn somewhere. as a side note, I also intensely dislike the concept of sandbagging on principle. like, just play the game you signed up for. if you plan to not play the game, then don’t come crying when you get pressured for it.

you say let’s wagon NM but that is the easiest elimination of all time. I’m not concerned about deepwolf!NM. I am concerned about other players skating by because “oh they’re just lazy town.” like if NM is where the wagon ends up, fine, but I think that’s an absolute last resort. there are three scum, so I’m going to keep trying to figure out who the team is. both you and gamma do not seem to care that there would be two other scum.

- Daenerys

yes, there are three scum
atm I don't think murdercat is any of them
NM could be, so could others but I haven't probed for them yet
I don't like the way you try to act like because there's three scum it invalidates our concerns about the murdercat lim and those pushing it

If you look at how murdercat got through all of those games you'll see a very consistent trend of town!murdercat getting pushed early and/or often

but see:

And my issue is you can't say that he doesn't as scum so it's nai. Stop relying solely on meta for which you don't have an established comparison.

I'm saying your perspective on murdercat is way smaller than mine or infinity's, and as such you should listen to what I'm saying, which is to give him time since he becomes stronger as town further along in the game, and I think based on how things have developed he is town
I'm not just metaing murdercat, I'm metaing the scenario

Yeah I do wish he would post more since he said he would be, but is leaving the thread and "hoping the wagon dissipates" something scum actually do ever? Idk

Infinity I'm concerned you have to ask this question.

I actually don't remember a time when scum has lurked out a wagon hoping it dissipates, but maybe there's been a time where it happened and I though the scum was just demotivated or something

It just seems like a very dumb thing to do and I don't think that's really how wagons work, maybe in larges idk

that's
what I used to do

VOTE: murdercat
I'd prefer to let him town up if he's town but he's not really trying atp, plus I have unresolved concerns of my own from early on.

plus I have unresolved concerns of my own from early on

can you please point me in the direction of these concerns?

I'm being lazy

didn't like how he was talking about mech stuff early
it felt like he was crutching on that to get TRed

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don't particularly want to give a run down on events beyond the quote chain above because I did not enjoy interacting with gamma and rereading these made me angry all over again

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I imagine you'll get to reading this part at some point, but the TLDR is gamma and infinity both voted NM because inactivity/laziness are not scum indicative for murder. gamma was insisting that murder being wagoned indicated town!murder. that's the gist of it.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

eod = end of day

[Daenerys and Dragons]

see that's what I always say and then I end up just being a tryhard

[Daenerys and Dragons]

skitter are you townreading infinity/why is he not in that pool

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

"I have no chill" is a more accurate description

[Daenerys and Dragons]

gamma/infinity trying to wagon NM instead of murdercat yesterday was bad

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

.... you think the third scum was bussing a bomb!gamma in order to stay off the murder wagon?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

boop

[Daenerys and Dragons]

If you think gamma is the bomb then us/gc/yyotta don't really make sense as the 3rd scum. I think that pool only makes sense if mena flips town or goon.

I kind of feel like gamma/infinity is not a bad guess. and I think infinity is also in my pool if gamma/mena is town. so maybe I just want infinity today.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Hi mena!!!!

VOTE: mena

Unfortunately we think ur slot has super high scum equity

~ skitteR

I disagree actually, I think Gamma!slot is looking better after that flip.

I'm more interested in GC, Yyotta or infinity today

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Also @mena i have a p strong townpool and gamma never was townie, so he was p firmly outside of it. And i dislike his interactions with mc/mc's wagon, in that he tried to avoid it for a p long time

Okay, well I can’t answer for gamma and I haven’t read yet but I will

Like I don’t ur logic but I would like to hear more on who is particularly towny and why

Although I’d actually prob rather hear after I read up to see if we sync or not

you
salsa
lilith's slot

~
infinity
gc
yyotta
catboi

~
MURDERKITTY
gamma

tiers look roughly like this ^.
don't really want to flip nm either

this is from my eod yestserday
salsa - strongest townread; the iso-reads she's done on a few slots now are ridiculously +++town, she has an element of guileness that i really like, she just screams newbtown

lilith's slot - the emotion in bickering with gamma + how she picked a fight with me eod yesterday, probably town, probably otu of her scumrange (i'm a bit less confident than i was yesterday, i will say)

~
infinity - with the murder scum flip and infinity's defense of him i want to put him in the bottom category tbh. i don't remember why i was townreading him anymore

gc - liked his stubborness on his shadow read (not the initial read, but rather how he persisted and explained it when i kept pushing back). not as strong a townread as the above but town enough for now

yyotta - also getting newbtown vibes. weaker read than the other townreads

catboi - i really liked shadowslug, and htought he was very, very townie. i don't have much thought on catboi's iteration of the slot tbh

~

gamma - literally never got townvibes from him, hated his half of the lilith/gamma thing

murderkitty - flipped scum! i'm happy i caught that one

~

nm - nm

that's kinda where i'm at. want to focus on lesser townreads / people i don't townread today

~ skitteR

Does this mean your strongest SR is on NM?

gamma/infinity trying to wagon NM instead of murdercat yesterday was bad

- Daenerys

yeah I forgot about that, that was so shit
I feel like scum was for sure in that group trying to throw up NM

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I disagree actually, I think Gamma!slot is looking better after that flip.

Really?

Because it really looked like scummerald awkwardly trying to defend a lim on his buddy.

-Dumbass

Disagree, at least to the point where I don't want him yeeted today. I like Mena's posting too.

GC's posting seems to be preemptively trying to avoid a wagon on him. We have seen nothing from Yyotta or Infinity yet. Quite comfortable with this pool.

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

not sure if we should be trying to discuss the nk - @d&d do you guys think this is a useful discussion to have?

- Daenerys

not sure if we should be trying to discuss the nk - @d&d do you guys think this is a useful discussion to have?

Nope, we should avoid it.

-Dumbass

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Gamma seems a little suspicious.

Infinity, GC, KITTY, Salsabil, PP are my TR.
Everyone else seems null.

can you define why you find me suspicious?
this does sorta answer my question tho

Gamma seems a little suspicious.

Infinity, GC, KITTY, Salsabil, PP are my TR.
Everyone else seems null.

can you explain these reads please

- Daenerys

@Gamma I think the way you reacted to your wagon is a little suspicious.

@lilith Infinity just seems townish during the game, GC got some fairly solid (at least how I view it) reasoning behind things although I'm not sure about his KITTY vote. I honestly don't think KITTY is that suspicious. I think he also got some town vibes. Salsabil seems to be going real deep in scumhunting this game. Something that seems town to me. PP just seems to be a passive townie.

can you explain what townvibes you got from murdercat?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

work blew up so I’m probably not going to be around much.

yyotta slot is like, really meh. I don’t really get the feeling of solving, and recent posts are lackluster.

elim within {infinity, mena, yyotta} today I think.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

But like fmpov, the occam’s explanation of the gamestate is a scum hardbus. Why? Bc I know that the alternative wagon yesterday was on town, which makes me think scum weren’t trying that hard to resist murdercat wagon which in turn makes me think bussing

i don't understand this either.

if gamma/mena = town, then there was a scum wagon and a town wagon, and so correct assumption is that scum bussed rather than tried to get town eliminated?

also, what would be "were'nt trying to hard to resist murdercat wagon" that wasn't infinity/gamma's reaction to the MC wagon?

I’m saying a very sensible assumption given the setup is that scum (specifically the other goon) has a v clear path to a win from a hardbus on D1 and that shouldn’t be discounted

The path would be >lim murder kitty >NK >9 players left, goon prob gets inducted into the panic room >hardbus the bomb D2 >3p lylo where the goon has led on both their buddies but can explain still being alive via NK expiring after bomb dies

logically this doesn’t make any sense unless you’re positing that dumb&dumber is bussing you and you’re the bomb. I think skitter already said this but it really does not compute. mena’s response in 1608 also doesn’t make much sense to me.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

on reread I feel better about gc as well.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

We’re waiting on infinity who promised a reread/thoughts and mena who promised catchup/thoughts. They’re the main two slots I’m interested in eliminating given how they defended MC yesterday. gamma in particular was arguing that NM voting MC was scummy because NM “should know that town!murder gets wagoned early.” I feel like that’s a very farfetched reason for trying to wagon NM. I don’t have much on my to-do list beyond annoying the shit out of them with questions.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

{1278} = Don't agree with you cause like you overreacted on Dumbass ( Auro) earlier, Gamma Emerald overreacted with you too. Yes, he might have the wrong meta on you (which is according to you), but that doesn't necessarily scum indicative. Your reaction was also not calming when the 1v1 was going on. And he said that he has issues with communicating, that's why he was ignoring you which I feel genuine. Also, he may be doesn't solve the game like you're doing but I don't find him scum for this.

fine, let’s remove all the “emotional”-related things (once again, I feel like my points are not invalid just because I’m emotional, but I’m being treated like my content isn’t valid just because I’m frustrated)

Gamma’s perspective is like so far out of the realm of where my head’s at that it’s really difficult for me to believe that this is a town perspective.

- see 1432 - setting up false dichotomies and then going “oh welp guess this person must ~logically~ be scum” when that ignores all context of the game
- “wrong meta” is an understatement. you have to actively be looking at two of my worst scumgames at all time, where I rolled over like a napkin, and think that that kind of engagement is at all similar to how active or engaged I’ve been in this game.

- Daenerys

The reason I brought it up is because it seemed like gamma had completely ignored 1) what position scum!me would have to have taken on a town!skitter and town!auro; and 2) the effort I was putting into the game. again, if he wanted to say I was scum despite that or because of it, fine, but he did not consider where my slot stood in the context of the game. he chose to create a false dichotomy between my slot and another slot in two different ways (me vs penguin and me vs dumb & dumber) and then was like “oh well I guess if lilith is in two dichotomies it should be her.” that’s the same mentality I’ve taken to reads as scum before, where I set up a chain of “logic” and then just use those points to draw “conclusions,” and ignore everything else about the actual play in the game.

- Daenerys

reposting these. I think I’m still decently confident in what I said about gamma before.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@salsa would like a response to the posts quoted in 1642 since I don’t think you ever responded

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Yeah I do wish he would post more since he said he would be, but is leaving the thread and "hoping the wagon dissipates" something scum actually do ever? Idk

Yeah I do wish he would post more since he said he would be, but is leaving the thread and "hoping the wagon dissipates" something scum actually do ever? Idk

*raises hand*

- Daenerys

is leaving the thread and "hoping the wagon dissipates" something scum actually do ever?

Yes.

I haven't gotten townvibes from NM, I'm (very) not confident I'll be able to read NM later

PEdit: I don't see it happen often, and I don't see why murder would think that would happen in this gamestate?

PEdit: I don't see it happen often, and I don't see why murder would think that would happen in this gamestate?

seems a little dismissive when you received two answers of the affirmative.

I actually don't remember a time when scum has lurked out a wagon hoping it dissipates, but maybe there's been a time where it happened and I though the scum was just demotivated or something

It just seems like a very dumb thing to do and I don't think that's really how wagons work, maybe in larges idk

that’s literally my reaction as scum to most pressure.

- Daenerys

I actually don't remember a time when scum has lurked out a wagon hoping it dissipates, but maybe there's been a time where it happened and I though the scum was just demotivated or something

It just seems like a very dumb thing to do and I don't think that's really how wagons work, maybe in larges idk

I mean - it depends on the player, but I have seen it (work) enough that it's not a good reason to use it for ++town points.

Yeah I'm not arguing that murder is town for it

.... aren’t you?

- Daenerys

Yeah I'm not arguing that murder is town for it

but is leaving the thread and "hoping the wagon dissipates" something scum actually do ever? Idk

PEdit: I don't see it happen often, and I don't see why murder would think that would happen in this gamestate?

Sorry - this seemed to be an argument for notscum!kitty which would be town!kitty

I was arguing against the fact that it's scummy for murder to not be here atm, I think it's NAI

this also feels pretty damning for infinity

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I think catboi was alluding to infinity posting elsewhere on site. I think it’s really just an “icing on the cake” kind of thing

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don't agree

??? what is this in response to

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

That my reasoning is not solid. I may not have articulated it in the best way, but I think it's solid reasoning especially since I'm decently familiar with gamma's meta

being an asshole /= town
getting emotional /= town

I feel like this is at best something like a nullcase on him, not a towncase - gamma’s reasoning being “not scummy” is not the same thing as gamma’s reasoning being towny.

What did you think was genuine about gamma’s defense of MC? Why are bad reasons NAI? Why are bad reasons from gamma a reason to townread him and not a reason to nullread him (at best)?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

scum have bad reasons all the time

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t really get this argument of “well scum wouldn’t do X because wouldn’t they have a better strategy than that?”

I mean, you said that about MC not being in thread and then he flipped scum

Scum can and do do things that look bad. in this case scum!gamma would have had a pretty good reason to try to defuse pressure on murder by diverting the wagon elsewhere. MC wasn’t being towny, so what “good” reasons could gamma have come up with to townread MC? Pretty much any reason you use to call MC towny is not going to look good. And gamma was trying to wagon NM so there would have been a specific purpose there to calling MC town.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Not really sure if I’m getting my point across very well. I don’t think these are very strong arguments for townreading gamma. Have you read 1642?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

that was @infinity.

I agree with 1689.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t really get this argument of “well scum wouldn’t do X because wouldn’t they have a better strategy than that?”

I mean, you said that about MC not being in thread and then he flipped scum

Scum can and do do things that look bad. in this case scum!gamma would have had a pretty good reason to try to defuse pressure on murder by diverting the wagon elsewhere. MC wasn’t being towny, so what “good” reasons could gamma have come up with to townread MC? Pretty much any reason you use to call MC towny is not going to look good. And gamma was trying to wagon NM so there would have been a specific purpose there to calling MC town.

- Daenerys

I'm not sure you get what I'm saying. Gamma is competent at scum. People were happy with the murder wagon. It doesn't make sense to put yourself out there with a weak defense, no one is going to buy it and it will make you look worse. If gamma was scum, that means there wasn't a good town CW, and pushing on NM as a CW doesn't make sense because there isn't solid reasoning to call him scummy with. He could've just...null read murder if murder wasn't being towny, and said he's not willing to go to bat for murder. Scum don't do bad plays because "WIFOM lul".

We can ask murder postgame whether he was avoiding the thread or demotivated, I have my suspicions

I’m saying scum don’t always do something because it fits with their “optimal” strategy. Sometimes they just do scummy things. Otherwise.. how would we catch them? Regardless of whether it was intentionally done or not, MC was not in the thread while his wagon was high. You tried to argue that he wasn’t doing that as scum because scum would know better, but lo and behold, he flipped red. I feel like you’re applying something similar here where like everything that someone does has to be perfectly ascribed to an optimal scum strategy. Like... maybe scum!gamma started out with a really weak defense of murder (which imo it was) and then felt like he was “stuck” and tried to counterwagon NM but got nowhere and didn’t really feel like he could scumread anyone??? It’s not that hard for someone who is “competent” at scum to just.. not do the optimal thing all the time. (case in point: me in jk9++, pyp, cards of destiny, legends.. etc).

I think it’s very very possible that scum!gamma had a genuine reaction to penguin poking him, because that’s how scum!me reacted to penguin poking me in jk9++. I was genuinely angry at what felt like penguin being condescending towards me. When gamma was lashing out, it crossed my mind more than once that penguin responding to people with snarky gifs and looking at the person’s reaction might be a good way to read the person.

Finally - might be a bit biased since I was on the receiving end of it, but gamma’s emotion left a really bad taste in my mouth. He lashed out at me and penguin, then said I wasn’t allowed to take it personally, told me to fuck off and was really condescending towards me, and then preemptively started explaining why he wasn’t actually an asshole to anyone because it was all part of his experiment with mafia where there’s low stakes and so (words inferred by me) it doesn’t matter if anyone else gets upset because he’s being an ass, no sir. So that whole time I felt like he was up on a high horse telling me that I wasn’t allowed to be frustrated or emotional but he was and that I wasn’t allowed to be upset that he was an asshole. like... really bad taste in my mouth. Since I’m probably biased, I’m marking this as NAI.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

So, tell me who you want to elim off of there, yyotta?

That my reasoning is not solid. I may not have articulated it in the best way, but I think it's solid reasoning especially since I'm decently familiar with gamma's meta

being an asshole /= town
getting emotional /= town

I feel like this is at best something like a nullcase on him, not a towncase - gamma’s reasoning being “not scummy” is not the same thing as gamma’s reasoning being towny.

What did you think was genuine about gamma’s defense of MC? Why are bad reasons NAI? Why are bad reasons from gamma a reason to townread him and not a reason to nullread him (at best)?

- Daenerys

Being an asshole isn't towny in a vacuum, but antagonizing a widely TRed player for no discernible benefit to scum is

Getting emotional isn't towny, but displaying genuine emotion tends to be

I thought gamma displayed genuine emotion when he dug in his heels against you/penguin arguing against murder's elim

Bad reasons are NAI because they are

They're not a reason to TR gamma, they're NAI

I think I adequately responded to these points in my previous post

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Bussing is like, a tactic that is available

I think this setup favors hard defending over bussing. Trying to keep goons alive long enough to get into the panic room is still important. Losing a goon means the other goon has to town it up really hard. In my opinion, bussing only really makes sense if you have someone well-placed to deepwolf (which I think most of us have agreed would be dumb&dumber given they led the MC wagon, but I don’t see much point in entertaining that possibility today).

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@infinity what are your thoughts on these posts

{1278} = Don't agree with you cause like you overreacted on Dumbass ( Auro) earlier, Gamma Emerald overreacted with you too. Yes, he might have the wrong meta on you (which is according to you), but that doesn't necessarily scum indicative. Your reaction was also not calming when the 1v1 was going on. And he said that he has issues with communicating, that's why he was ignoring you which I feel genuine. Also, he may be doesn't solve the game like you're doing but I don't find him scum for this.

fine, let’s remove all the “emotional”-related things (once again, I feel like my points are not invalid just because I’m emotional, but I’m being treated like my content isn’t valid just because I’m frustrated)

Gamma’s perspective is like so far out of the realm of where my head’s at that it’s really difficult for me to believe that this is a town perspective.

- see 1432 - setting up false dichotomies and then going “oh welp guess this person must ~logically~ be scum” when that ignores all context of the game
- “wrong meta” is an understatement. you have to actively be looking at two of my worst scumgames at all time, where I rolled over like a napkin, and think that that kind of engagement is at all similar to how active or engaged I’ve been in this game.

- Daenerys

The reason I brought it up is because it seemed like gamma had completely ignored 1) what position scum!me would have to have taken on a town!skitter and town!auro; and 2) the effort I was putting into the game. again, if he wanted to say I was scum despite that or because of it, fine, but he did not consider where my slot stood in the context of the game. he chose to create a false dichotomy between my slot and another slot in two different ways (me vs penguin and me vs dumb & dumber) and then was like “oh well I guess if lilith is in two dichotomies it should be her.” that’s the same mentality I’ve taken to reads as scum before, where I set up a chain of “logic” and then just use those points to draw “conclusions,” and ignore everything else about the actual play in the game.

- Daenerys

reposting these. I think I’m still decently confident in what I said about gamma before.

- Daenerys

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I’m saying scum don’t always do something because it fits with their “optimal” strategy. Sometimes they just do scummy things. Otherwise.. how would we catch them? Regardless of whether it was intentionally done or not, MC was not in the thread while his wagon was high. You tried to argue that he wasn’t doing that as scum because scum would know better, but lo and behold, he flipped red. I feel like you’re applying something similar here where like everything that someone does has to be perfectly ascribed to an optimal scum strategy. Like... maybe scum!gamma started out with a really weak defense of murder (which imo it was) and then felt like he was “stuck” and tried to counterwagon NM but got nowhere and didn’t really feel like he could scumread anyone??? It’s not that hard for someone who is “competent” at scum to just.. not do the optimal thing all the time. (case in point: me in jk9++, pyp, cards of destiny, legends.. etc).

I've clarified the murdercat point before, I believe he had just given up, I don't think there was a realistic hope of the wagon "just going away" when he had implied he was going to be less underwhelming and hadn't done so.

Yes it's possible scum!gamma misplayed, but occam's razor says he didn't, I have no idea why someone would feel locked into a weak townread

I think it’s very very possible that scum!gamma had a genuine reaction to penguin poking him, because that’s how scum!me reacted to penguin poking me in jk9++. I was genuinely angry at what felt like penguin being condescending towards me. When gamma was lashing out, it crossed my mind more than once that penguin responding to people with snarky gifs and looking at the person’s reaction might be a good way to read the person.

I'm not sure how to argue this, I felt strongly when I saw gamma's posts that the genuine emotion was connected to a belief that murdercat was town

I agree with you that gamma was out of line at some points, I don't see why that's scum-indicative, or why scum antagonizes you on purpose there.

Like I said, I’ll agree to saying it’s not necessarily scum-indicative but I’m not going to call it towny.

Mena has yet to do anything to make me townread the slot. He came up with some theories that didn’t really make sense and that’s about it.

Gamma’s perspective is like so far out of the realm of where my head’s at that it’s really difficult for me to believe that this is a town perspective.

Almost every time I see this logic being used it's wrong. I agree that gamma's position didn't make a ton of sense, but he's perfectly capable of making sense as scum, and I don't see why he's bending over backwards to justify a SR on you as scum

I don't think you're going to be convinced by my arguments if you haven't been already

This is my primary method of reading people and my read accuracy isn’t terrible, so I’m clearly going to disagree about this.

I don’t think he was “bending over backwards to justify a SR on me.” I think it’s more likely that he felt backed into a corner, went aggressive in order to defend himself from being pushed, and the easiest way to do that was to try to shade me. I don’t think gamma has ever even played with town!me, so he was applying scum “meta” as if it’s supposed to be indicative of anything without towngames for comparison.

Do I think gamma was approaching me in good faith? No.
Do I think town!gamma would have used shitty, invalid meta? Not really.
Do I think town!gamma’s points of view should have been understandable from my end, even if I didn’t agree with them? Yes.
Were they? No.
Do I think gamma setting up not one, but two, false dichotomies with me in both is scum-indicative? Yes.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Using bad meta and setting up false dichotomies that “logically” lead to a conclusion of X must be scum are both things that I’ve done

as scum.

Yeah they look bad, so what? Scum will still do things that look bad. Something looking bad is not a very good reason that that thing will never be done by scum.

At that point scum!gamma would have been looking for a different counterwagon. Penguin probably looked like a viable option. I probably looked like a viable option (to gamma, since he said I was not obvtown).

pedit: ok

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Bussing is like, a tactic that is available

I think this setup favors hard defending over bussing. Trying to keep goons alive long enough to get into the panic room is still important. Losing a goon means the other goon has to town it up really hard. In my opinion, bussing only really makes sense if you have someone well-placed to deepwolf (which I think most of us have agreed would be dumb&dumber given they led the MC wagon, but I don’t see much point in entertaining that possibility today).

Tbf if i were scum doing that that would be exactly the sort of reaction i'd be trying to evoke

~ skitteR

sorry I don’t really know what this means, can you eli5?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

VOTE: mena I'm done with this, we need to advance the game. I'm confident this is a town win, we have enough obvtown players

I'm sorry, my friend, but this looks incredibly fake :/

VOTE: Infinity420

-Dumbass

what happened to bomb-gamma theory?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Something looking bad is not a very good reason that that thing will never be done by scum.

I can't resist arguing mafia theory

In my experience, for every scum who does something that obviously looks bad, there are 10 who don't do it, or do it but have an excuse that looks pretty reasonable

Gamma didn't seem to have a reasonable excuse to defend murder, or to SR you

Psychologically, scum are scared to do the thing that "obviously" looks bad because it's, well, scary. And a better plan than trying to do the obvious thing and WIFOM people is to come up with a reasonable excuse, because then you don't get SRed by the people that SR the obvious bad stuff. And even if you're playing against a lobby of infinities, sometimes I will buy the reasonable excuse anyway. It tends to be easier than people expect to come up with a reasonable excuse for things, too.

I’m not arguing that scum will always do these things. I’m just arguing that scum will not

never

do these things, so doing it isn’t a very good reason to say someone is not scum. I feel like your reasoning on murder and now gamma is that scum would never do something that looks scummy which I fundamentally disagree with. Also, I’m still not sure how this is town-indicative? Are you trying to argue that town are more likely to do scummy things than scum?

Also re: the “gamma would have had a reasonable excuse” part, I feel like he tried to come up with reasonable excuses. On MC it was explaining all the “meta” and on suspecting me it was “logic” and also “meta.” What do you think scum!gamma would have done differently regarding both me and murdercat if you don’t think he’s scum?

- Daenerys

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

oops got overexcited and signed twice

[Daenerys and Dragons]

hey I'll be here tomorrow
sorry lots of things on my mind this week

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

sigh. Would have liked to hear from mena before day ended. maybe I’m just a party pooper who can’t handle being happy but gamma/infinity scum feels too easy.

If at any point, the bomb is dead and game hasn’t ended and dumb&dumber is still alive and I’m dead, please consider them as deepwolf option.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

jrolekfjfbsbadb trying to figure out how best to use my time in twilight

[Daenerys and Dragons]

oh, i think there's a more likely than not chance that infinity is scum

just weird that a lot of argument with infinity is about whether another slot is scum, rather than about infinity's own play

I’m more thinking about whether they’re aligned, I think?

though it's not lost on me that infinity & gamma/mena are in the same position relative to the MC-wagon, so presumably one could apply the conversation about gamma to infinity's play--but nobody's really made that connection

also this yes. I felt like I was getting infinity to towncase himself in a way

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I thought dumb&dumber was the E1 vote?

[Daenerys and Dragons]

idk I’m a little weirded out by their switch off gamma

I think that compounded with the lack of E1 announcement is giving me weird vibes again

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

catboi/salsabil
dumb & dumber/nm
gc
<null line>
yyotta/gamma/infinity

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

It feels just like, a little too easy that everyone has the same three person POE? like idk, I feel like it should be harder than this unless scum have just given up and are rolling over for us. but why not just concede then?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

If infinity is goon, why would he allow himself to die without anyone from their team in the panic room?
If infinity is bomb, even more so - why would he let himself die unless someone else is in the panic room?

I feel like infinity might just be town. sighhhhh

[Daenerys and Dragons]

if infinity is scum then either the team has decided to roll over but is not conceding (really weird) or whoever got recruited N1 is scum.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

If infinity is town, then I think dumb&dumber switching off gamma is possibly scum-indicative

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

could go either way. mena/gamma in a vacuum still feels scummy to me. it could have been like a fake-bussing situation and that mena is actually the bomb and dumb&dumber bussing. dumb&dumber could be town deciding between two equally scummy slots and ended up settling on infinity being fine. dumb&dumber could be scum and saw that infinity miselim/wagon was way easier than gamma and so just went there. they all seem plausible so I don’t really know.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I think maybe leaning slightly more towards town!gamma if infinity is town, but the content from that slot makes me not want to feel that way

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

overall still think gamma/mena is scum.

If infinity town -> scum on infinity wagon, most likely yyotta but that also feels a bit too easy

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I think gc is pretty clearly unaligned with gamma so max 1 scum in {gamma, gc}

yyotta might be scum and she might be scum with dumb&dumber given how skitter was using a “newb” kind of defense for her

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

If infinity flips scum, then whoever was recruited N1 needs to die before endgame, if that isn’t clear

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

If infinity flips scum, then whoever was recruited N1 needs to die before endgame, if that isn’t clear

Good point

????

[Daenerys and Dragons]

UNVOTE:

Kind of want to memeflashwagon

after infinity scumclaimed??

also what gc said

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

y hello people

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Does anyone even have any thoughts on NK?

Who are your top candidates for MC’s scum buddies, and why?

scummy

I thought Mena was going to convince us the slot was town.

bad if Mena/Gamma slot is town

pg 66 - yeah infinity can go

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Fwiw I think I'm probably out of my scumrange here

gross

i think flipping mena -> infinity -> yyotta flips at least one if not both scum

~ skitteR

yes

this game is apathetic because scum are demoralized. we need to return the pressure and get moving again.

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

oh Mena is dead? good we needed a flip.

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

VOTE: mena I'm done with this, we need to advance the game. I'm confident this is a town win, we have enough obvtown players

scummy as hell

@salsa would like a response to the posts quoted in 1642 since I don’t think you ever responded

- Daenerys

You have points, specially after

MURDERCAT

's flip, so I really don't have anything to defend

Gamma Emerald/Menalque

's slot. But if

Infinity 324

and

YyottaCat

are the other two scums here, then I think

Gamma Emerald/Menalque

's slot is town.

My POE = {

Infinity 324

,

YyottaCat

,

Gamma Emerald/Menalque

} and I think

Infinity 324

is the bomb.

VOTE: Infinity 324

If Infinity is bomb though then he wouldn't want attention towards him. Explain.

Infinity basically coasted through day 1. I think he makes a lot of sense as bomb.

It feels just like, a little too easy that everyone has the same three person POE? like idk, I feel like it should be harder than this unless scum have just given up and are rolling over for us. but why not just concede then?

- Daenerys

don't psyche yourself out Lilith.

ok Infinity got the yeet not Mena. Good.

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

idk this game is sort of on autopilot at this point. depending on what Inf flips I want to yeet one of (Mena, GC, yyotta) tomorrow
I feel like the town block is solid

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

akdjfjshajhf wait please unvote, I have a lot of stuff I want to post in case we die but I can’t write it out for another 4 hours

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

that’s fine I really don’t think mena is allowed to get to endgame regardless of alignment. I just have a lot of things I wrote down

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t think this is something that scum!infinity says about scum!catboi

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

let's try this out.

This is the first vote on murder I think? It's possible catboi comes in, thinks he needs to bus murder, then sees an opportunity to start a different wagon, but not super occam's razor-y. I also want to stick with my shadow TR.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

not feeling great about both auro and skitter’s recent thought processes

[Daenerys and Dragons]

catboi - i really liked shadowslug, and htought he was very, very townie. i don't have much thought on catboi's iteration of the slot tbh

What happened to this

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

ok I mean I can pull quotes of auro saying he townreads catboi and that he’d put shadowslug in the neighborhood

{Salsabil Faria, Shadowslug} are both confident townreads, and if I'm the neighborizer these would be my first picks.

-Dumbass

[Daenerys and Dragons]

yeah so I’m asking what changed about catboi that he’s no longer one of your slot’s strongest townreads?

this is only tangentially related to the thought processes thought

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

wait, what? neighborizer happens during the day?

[Daenerys and Dragons]

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Based on the general trend I see in setups (disclaimer: not a mech expert by any means), I don’t really think that a recruiting role would be an immediate day-role, in the same way that I don’t really think dayvigs are very common

but mena’s argument makes less nonsense than it did before if he thinks this is how it works

pedit: hmm I assumed skitter also misunderstood the reasoning behind mena’s argument due to the role miscommunication. but now it doesn’t seem like that.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

.... you think the third scum was bussing a bomb!gamma in order to stay off the murder wagon?

- Daenerys

oh hmmm you're right. then like two scum on MC? gamma + scomeone else?
i didn't actually think through all the implicatiosn ig yet lol

~ skitteR

[Daenerys and Dragons]

skitter are you townreading infinity/why is he not in that pool

- Daenerys

ehhhhh not as much anymore as i was yesterday, his positioning is not great too

i was listing the people on teh gamma wagon (i htink there's at least one scum there) but we can add him to the suspect pool too

~ skitteR

[Daenerys and Dragons]

- trying to push gamma as bomb
- while also pushing the people on his wagon as scum
- weird progression on infinity - I straight up didn’t read him as town ever. what did you and auro townread about him D1?

[Daenerys and Dragons]

reasons why I don’t think catboi is the bomb

1)

Spoiler: infinity posts about shadow

Shadow, why was lilith saying "can we talk about" in 116 scummy but murder saying "can we talk about skitter" not?

Missed this

Uhh I missed this actually, but I don't mind Murder since he thinks there might be value in pushing skitter a bit and seemed content with letting that play out and didn't like you guys switching focus

I like shadow for town, this post and 149 feel like trying to explain gut reads

@lilith 121 is maybe slightly scum-indicative in general, cause it makes sense for scum to lash back there, but eh

this post and 149 feel like trying to explain gut reads

To explain this better, I feel like scum would feel more obligated to address the apparent "contradiction" I brought up in 142 but instead he's just saying what he thinks

Using words gang

Don’t see how 154 isn’t exactly what you said it isn’t.

I don’t think 154 is indicative either way but I’m not seeing how it assuages concerns.

The best way I can explain it is that it's framed as "here's what I thought about murder" and not "here's why I'm not contradicting myself"

These infinity posts feel like he’s possibly TMIing town!shadow, overexplaining reasons he thinks shadow is towny

2)

I don’t think this is something that scum!infinity says about scum!catboi

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

let's try this out.

This is the first vote on murder I think? It's possible catboi comes in, thinks he needs to bus murder, then sees an opportunity to start a different wagon, but not super occam's razor-y. I also want to stick with my shadow TR.

3) GC previously said catboi has been disgustingly townie. I’m fine with this assessment and also think catboi has been towny. And I think I trust GC’s read, since at most one of them is scum - this is either a genuine read from town!GC or GC is scum and catboi is town anyway.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I have plans to write one for every slot but I’m not at a computer / will be busy for a few hours

[Daenerys and Dragons]

the neighborhood doesn’t matter anymore, we just need to find the bomb and kill them.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

juicy review

will you be providing any juicy review

[Daenerys and Dragons]

juicy review

will you be providing any juicy review

not particularly inclined to do so tbh, but happy to Statler and Waldorf some other people's thoughts

do you want to give input on my catboi thoughts

[Daenerys and Dragons]

pagebottoms

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Mena feels too easy (I've been talking with Lilith about this overnight) but I think we just have to yeet him here no matter what :/
Really not liking Green Crayons here but Lilith disagrees
I think Catboi is obviously town

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I mean you explicitly said you weren’t going to read the game so I’m not sure how we’re supposed to sort you. What exactly do you expect us to do?

[Daenerys and Dragons]

did I not ask for time to post things???????????

[Daenerys and Dragons]

alright well now you get the crappy version and only for a few people

[Daenerys and Dragons]

that was 4 votes

is the game over?

[Daenerys and Dragons]

ah gg. tough rep in for sure.

@skitter very sorry too. after D1 flip I was pretty sure you guys would just end up being town.

salsa was inducted N1, we were inducted N2.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

wanna guess who the IC is? or should I let them reveal themselves themselves?

[Daenerys and Dragons]

both infinity and gamma were arguing that murder was town based on a nullcase, not a towncase