Mini 142: Guitarists Mafia- Game Over

[Mr. Flay]

Survey says....

Random Vote: Talitha

(and a

FoS

at KingEnigma for yelling at MoS for voting so early in the day, then doing the same thing 3 short minutes later... )

[Mr. Flay]

FYI, yesterday was Ozzy Osbourne's birthday. On the radio they announced it as "Ozzy has lived about 90 years, and it only took about 56 years for him to do it." Wonder if CubsFan heard the same report on NPR...

Not much going on yet. Would the scum be rabid fans, perhaps? Worried about their artist 'selling out'?

[Mr. Flay]

I know I'll regret asking, but do you have a reason for saying Dourgrim is 'evil', IS?

FOS: Assasin

for stacking a second vote on with no explanation whatsoever. People who don't talk can't make mistakes.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, thanks IS, that's exactly what I expected.

Talitha: Thanks, I didn't know you cared. However I'm going to follow the weirdest vote yet and

Unvote: the random Talitha, Vote: Assasin

for mindless fingering of Dourgrim. If you're always right, you might want to start explaining how...

Maverick: Why would we need to discuss potential roles unless you're searching for a claim to be able to make? Did you not turn up as a guitarist?

[Mr. Flay]

Well, I guess I'm not sure what you meant. "Roles", as in Cop, Doc, SK, etc? Or "roles" as in Johnny Rotten, Jimi Hendrix, etc? Either way it was minor enough for me not to even FOS you... I could see some benefit to the first option, though on Day 1 we don't have a lot to go on. Probably no SK since there was only one kill last night (unless the Doc got lucky), but not a lot else to go on, unless people start mass claiming, which I don't recommend.

[Mr. Flay]

Okay, in reverse order:

IS: I'm sure it goes without saying, but I *hate* your playing style. You post in such choppy, disjointed, unexplained bursts that I usually can't get a good read on you. However this:

The fact is that NONE of you know ANYTHING. Not yet at least.

...makes me at least a little suspicious, because surely investigative roles would have something to go on by now?!? Sanity can be questioned, sure, but it's not like this was a newbie game with no Night One... I'd vote you if I thought it would do any good.

Dourgrim: I don't think that "everyone" is taking IS's "Dourgrim is evil" thing so seriously...by my count, only two people have voted you yet, out of 12. I'm certainly not convinced by his arguments (or lack thereof).

Talitha:

How did you know that Assassin's vote was "mindless" and "weird"? Sounds like you know something I don't.

Actually, at that point you knew more than I did, since Assasin had finally explained that his initial vote on Dourgrim was random (can you honestly read back on post 19 and tell me that didn't look weird?). If he was trying to play like IS, it failed in my opinion...nobody can play like IS except IS (see above), and even that doesn't mean I'm going to give him a free pass. That being said,

Unvote: Assasin

for now... newbie mistakes happen, though I'm not 100% convinced.

Finally, KingEnigma, what are you going on about?

Not so fast Mastermind of Sin and Mr Flay.

Your first post of the day was to vote for MoS for a *stated random* vote, and claim that proves he's scum. Why? Because he was the first one to vote? Because you couldn't post until 3 whole minutes later? I FOS'ed you because it seemed like

crap logic

... I know you won't agree with me, but I wasn't interested in your opinion at that moment. You'd already made it abundantly clear... I wanted to see what other people thought of you.

With all of that said, my review of the thread right now boils down to IS or Maverick. Maverick has posted all of twice, and the thing about asking for roles in his first post still makes my hackles rise. Also, for only posting twice and apparently having limited access, he sure responded quickly to me in 10 minutes, when questioned... sounds like a perfect recipe for lurkerdom in my book.

So

Vote: Maverick

to see if he shows up, while keeping a

FOS on InternetStranger

.

[Mr. Flay]

Talitha: I don't *know* that his vote is mindless, but the way in which it was done (

i.e.

with no explanation at all) made it seem semi-random, without actually stating such. When he followed it up with a cute little "because I know he's evil" it made me pretty certain that it was a fishing expedition. Not 100% certain, just like I doubt you're 100% certain that I'm voting him because I'm scum... I understand where you're coming from, Talitha, I just think you're wrong (know you're wrong about me, in any case). You voted for me long before Assasin told us his vote was random, now you say you're voting for me because I seemed to know something about his vote when none of us knew it was random. Yet IS gets a free ride for saying Dourgrim is evil as well. How many investigative roles do you think there *are* in this game, Talitha?

Seems to me like two or three of you are trying to get Dourgrim quicklynched. Meanwhile we have no meaningful data to go on for day 2 yet... I didn't even realize Nonny hadn't posted yet.

I'll shut up now and let somebody else contribute.

[Mr. Flay]

When he followed it up with a cute little "because I know he's evil" it made me pretty certain that it was a fishing expedition

First it's mindless, then it's fishing? Fishing for what?

Mindless, fishing, weird.... it flipped my triggers. If it doesn't yours, and it seems to not be anyone else's, then so be it. I'm just throwing out what I've got so far.

You voted for me long before Assasin told us his vote was random, now you say you're voting for me because I seemed to know something about his vote when none of us knew it was random.

What would you expect me to do when the person I am voting for gives me more justification for my vote? Remove it?

Of course not, provided you feel I've continued to justify it. I don't see quite what you think I'm doing so differently, besides continuing to debate this with you.

Yet IS gets a free ride for saying Dourgrim is evil as well. How many investigative roles do you think there *are* in this game, Talitha?

IS always gets a free ride, otherwise we'd be lynching him on Day 1 every game.

That's why I said I wasn't voting him...despite his behavior, nobody ever seem to lynch him for it.

[Mr. Flay]

Maverick: Your logic on NOT voting Dourgrim is completely warped. If he's scum, then he's a bigger loss to the mafia, just like he's a bigger loss (arguably) to the town if he's innocent. Either way, the equation balances, which is why it's called a .... *random* vote! Metagaming of that sort is counterproductive, even though I agree with you that he's not a good lynch target at this point. Since I can't disagree with your conclusions, only your methodology,

Unvote: Maverick

.

I blame IS for stifling discussion. Where are we at on a vote count? Nowhere fast, I know... I'd rather see that than a deadline at this point.

[Mr. Flay]

I know it's near the holidays and all, but we've got like 5 lurkers...I think nonny has a grand total of one post, and that one had almost no content.

Vote: nonny

for making all of one post so far, and that one uninformative. Post or perish,

n'est pas?

[Mr. Flay]

The lurking is keeeeling me here...*bump* even though I'm still happy with my vote on nonny for now. Maybe it'll get better after the weekend.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm still not done with nonny since he said he'd reread and post and hasn't, but that justinl thing is too suspicious to pass up.

Unvote: Nonny, Vote: Justinl

for his "yeah, whatever" vote.

[Mr. Flay]

guys (MOS, tick, Flay, anyone else i forgot) , the "yeah whatever" vote was because I agreed with IS's reasoning about why we should lynch randomly on the first day... but I guess if it's going to cause that much trouble, unvote: Dourgrim

but that justinl thing is too suspicious to pass up

the way you worded that makes you look very scummy...

So you believe Internet Stranger is right about choosing a name out of a hat, then unvote when it causes you any heat, and you say *I* look scummy? I'm glad you're posting more, but this confuses me.

I

don't

understand the desire to lynch someone by pulling their name out of a hat on Day 1. Shouldn't we be going after the person who seems scummiest? Talitha, at least, is giving reasons for her vote... even if I don't agree with most of them, she's participating in the game. IS and Justinl (and Assasin) seem to have thrown darts at a board and come up with Dourgrim. Was making an *informed* decision forbidden when I wasn't looking? Now I don't think they're all of our scum, certainly (that would beggar belief in its stupidity) but if Dourgrim *is* innocent I think we should take a longer look at that portion of the mob.

will be gone from the 17th to the 24th but will try and get something of value in before then. Sorry i havn't contributed much so far you may replace me if you wish.

Oh, please do post something of value. I hate replacements, although I realize they're a necessary evil, because they make you recalibrate your entire perception of the *role* a person might have, as opposed to the person playing it... and the replacement always gets a free pass for a while, which sets everything back. But nevermind: pretty please, with sugar on it, post your thoughts and stay in/come back to the game. Especially since you said you would back on the 12th (post 80).

When I saw the way Assasin voted for Dourgrim, and then his assertion that he didn't need IS to tell him anything, the first thing that popped into my head was, "Wow, Assasin could be a cop".
Then Mr Flay FOSed Assasin and then voted for him after Dourgrim did, saying that Assasin 'mindlessly' fingered Dour.
THEN Assasin comes along and says that his Dourgrim vote was just a random vote.
So Mr Flay was RIGHT about Assasin's vote being mindless. But my question is, how did he know this?

Okay, I'm going to try to do this with a minimum of sarcasm.

I FOS'ed and later voted for Assasin because he posted a vote in the first moments of the game that didn't *look* random, but also had no justification behind it. Much like I voted for justinl when he did the same thing (again, coincidentally, to Dourgrim). Am I being obtuse or inconsistent? He posted a vote (second vote, even) without a shred of explanation, and I questioned him about it. His reply (post 24) didn't assuage my concerns, so I voted for him. It was a second vote, true, but it was based on something that had actually been said/done in the thread, and it was better than my random vote at the time. What exactly are you wanting by way of explanation? A role claim?

You know what..I think we've got a lot to go on here at this point for Day 2. The only question is whether Talitha or Dourgrim would be the better 'proof' of what's been said so far, and since I believe Dourgrim more than Talitha,

Unvote: Junstinl, Vote: Talitha

to make things interesting. She's been extremely pushy on the Dourgrim thing on what looks like circumstantial evidence.

[Mr. Flay]

I swear

You kiss your mother with that mouth? Seriously, though, I just looked back through IS's posts looking for said quote (as nonny said, looking for the fabled IS Logic), and he said nothing of the sort.

I *think* you meant Dourgrim, who said

"but that's the reasoning behind why Day One bandwagons are supposed to be random... at least by IS's way of thinking."

(post 53), so it seems like it could be an innocent mistake, but you're not doing yourself any favors in my eyes with this sort of shooting-from-the-hip.

Other than justinl, I'm still looking at Assasin and Talitha (and IS, of course), and MoS for seeming to parrot what everyone else is saying without really coming up with anything on his own. "you've got a point there..." seems to be his favorite phrase.

Finally, for the record...

I just want to know why it never entered your head at any point that Assasin could be a cop.

Why? Because it never entered my head that a cop would *out* himself in such a disastrous way on Day 1

in his very first two posts

. I'm sure it's happened (I read the game where Stimpy did it with no night results), but it seemed inconceivable. So the other option is that it was a random vote, but since it didn't look random, it seemed that it was supposed to look convincing in order to start suspicion of Dourgrim.. which seems to have worked. So whatever the result of Dourgrim's innocence, Assasin may have been a lot more effective than I gave him credit for.

Unvote: Talitha

Not to say I won't put it back on, but I need to do a full readthrough again before I'm sure of where my vote should land.

[Mr. Flay]

I swear

You kiss your mother with that mouth? Seriously, though, I just looked back through IS's posts looking for said quote (as nonny said, looking for the fabled IS Logic), and he said nothing of the sort.

I *think* you meant Dourgrim, who said

"but that's the reasoning behind why Day One bandwagons are supposed to be random... at least by IS's way of thinking."

(post 53), so it seems like it could be an innocent mistake, but you're not doing yourself any favors in my eyes with this sort of shooting-from-the-hip.

Other than justinl, I'm still looking at Assasin and Talitha (and IS, of course), and MoS for seeming to parrot what everyone else is saying without really coming up with anything on his own. "you've got a point there..." seems to be his favorite phrase.

Finally, for the record...

I just want to know why it never entered your head at any point that Assasin could be a cop.

Why? Because it never entered my head that a cop would *out* himself in such a disastrous way on Day 1

in his very first two posts

. I'm sure it's happened (I read the game where Stimpy did it with no night results), but it seemed inconceivable. So the other option is that it was a random vote, but since it didn't look random, it seemed that it was supposed to look convincing in order to start suspicion of Dourgrim.. which seems to have worked. So whatever the result of Dourgrim's innocence, Assasin may have been a lot more effective than I gave him credit for.

Unvote: Talitha

Not to say I won't put it back on, but I need to do a full readthrough again before I'm sure of where my vote should land.

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry, work is demanding that I actually, well, work this week. Between that and holidays, I've been able to glance at the threads I'm in but not really formulate a response yet. I should get a chance to post Saturday afternoon...

[Mr. Flay]

Other than justinl, I'm still looking at Assasin and Talitha (and IS, of course), and MoS for seeming to parrot what everyone else is saying without really coming up with anything on his own. "you've got a point there..." seems to be his favorite phrase.

you

might

havea point there, Mr. Flay, except for the fact that

I was the first one to go after Talitha

...couldn't have been parroting anyone then, could I? The only time I ever said I agreed with anyone's points was when I revoted Talitha because Dourgrim's points

in addition

to my own were enough evidence for me to put my vote somewhere.

I call BS, Mastermind:
Post 8: Echoing my suspicion of KE in post 7 for his vote on you.
Post 36: "hmmm, Tally's got a point there..." after her post 35 about my vote on Assasin
Post 70: "yup, nonny has made just the one post" after my post 69 about the same thing.
Post 91: "you've got a point there...", after Maverick complained in post 90 about there not being much to go on..
Post 93: "good point, tick..." after tick's post 92.
Post 111: "yes, Tally, you never really explained yourself well there..." after Maverick's post 110 (as he mentioned a little bit above)

Each time, you're posting immediately after someone else, and saying essentially the same thing. It's not the entirety of your posts but it is a trend I noticed... still rereading the rest of the thread, not ready to vote yet.

[Mr. Flay]

I think people are waiting for him to post, and perhaps defend himself (is that 5 of 6 vote count correct?). I'm not really seeing a whole lot of anything, but I am certain that we'll know more tomorrow, especially when we get to look back on today.

[Mr. Flay]

For once I agree with Talitha

FOS: Maverick

for a really strange reason to unvote her, when he doesn't seem to think Dourgrim is a worthwhile suspect at all. Shouldn't you be voting on your own suspicions, not on what you think is a 'likely lynch' or not? And for the record, I still don't agree with much of anything else Talitha's written, but I'm kind of waiting for either a sixth vote or a brilliant/crappy defense from Dourgrim at this point...

Tomorrow has to be better than this. Yeesh.

[Mr. Flay]

This day makes my head hurt. So now IS is suspicious for pressing the bandwagon to completion (I have to say I'm less than thrilled by a roleclaim for somebody I've never heard of, as a Townie, but them's the breaks), when he wasn't suspicious when I mentioned it back on page 2? And justinl, tick, and maverick are just going around in circles like a bunch of drunken parrots.

Dourgrim, I don't see a way out of this for you without dying, and as you said, it'll give us a lot of information to go on for tomorrow. However with my own reservations still in place and enough people largely absent because of the holidays (I'm about to join them), I'm willing to wait until Sunday or Monday, in case a better solution comes along....

[Mr. Flay]

This day makes my head hurt. So now IS is suspicious for pressing the bandwagon to completion (I have to say I'm less than thrilled by a roleclaim for somebody I've never heard of, as a Townie, but them's the breaks), when he wasn't suspicious when I mentioned it back on page 2? And justinl, tick, and maverick are just going around in circles like a bunch of drunken parrots.

Dourgrim, I don't see a way out of this for you without dying, and as you said, it'll give us a lot of information to go on for tomorrow. However with my own reservations still in place and enough people largely absent because of the holidays (I'm about to join them), I'm willing to wait until Sunday or Monday, in case a better solution comes along....

[Mr. Flay]

Well, I was wanting to hear from Dourgrim one more time before we decided, and with a deadline in place it seems *extremely* unlikely that Dourgrim will go down to 2 votes, in order for us to lynch someone else (he's had 3 for forever). Let's put the pedal to the metal and see what's revealed tomorrow. Otherwise we're just prolonging the inevitable.

Vote: Dourgrim

Talitha, IS, Assasin, and the rest, I hope you've guessed correctly.

[Mr. Flay]

Whoa, we're back!

vote: Mr Flay Same reason as yesterday, I got the feeling he knew Dour was innocent.

You'll forgive me if I find your suspicions a little hard to swallow after the shellacking you gave Dourgrim yester-Day.

What exactly do you have to be suspicious of? I didn't believe your false belief about Dourgrim's scumminess, or Assasin's bogus claims of "knowing he's evil"? This is a new one on me...

Vote: Talitha

for yet another day's brilliant kickoff. Since you're supposedly such a good and dogged player when you're right, I can only assume you're scum when you're lousy and dogged.

>>

JustinL

, you got something to go with that vote, or are we back at Day One' with 10 players instead of 12 and random votes?

[Mr. Flay]

...Assasin's bogus claims of "knowing he's evil"..

Yeah - that exactly. How did you know it was bogus yesterday? It looks like inside knowledge to me.

It's inside knowledge that I don't think a player looks suspicious when you do? I'm with Dourgrim on this one, you're awfully high-and-mighty here. Especially for someone who led a bad lynch yesterday (you and IS, technically, but he at least didn't try to give it any pretext).

And I appreciate the fact that you're voting for me because I am such a brilliant player. How could I possibly be wrong if I'm not scum? I should've had this whole game wrapped up and the scumbags all lynched by now huh? Whatever.

Way to put words in my mouth. We've only had one night and with 3-4 scum in a mini, we had a less than 50% chance of lynching correctly yesterday. Yet you want to jump my case because I didn't believe you? I'd have thought you'd want to re-evaluate your strategy after lynching Dourgrim, but you're intent to continue steering the boat. So I feel no compunction about pushing back. I only regret that two more pro-town roles are dead because of it, and another two if you lynch me today. That would bring us to...what, 4 on the side of the town? I haven't seen evidence of a second killing group yet unless the doctor is getting really lucky, but that means we've got two days to hit scum. I'm willing to gamble on you being it, just like you were willing to gamble on Dourgrim yesterday. Are you game, Talitha?

Justin, I don't know what to make of your post. You vote for me on even vaguer suspicions than Talitha and claim you had some suspicions of me yesterday. Because I asked you questions? I was under the impression that was how the game was played... lately this one's been silent. I know we've been in night for a long while, but have we heard from KingEnigma or Assasin yet? I notice both of them voted for Dourgrim too...

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry, that line "We've only had one night" should say "We've only had one DAY (to lynch scum)". Nobody expects you to have fingered all of the scum by now, but you're batting .000 so far.

[Mr. Flay]

I guess it's a good thing not much has happened because I've been superbusy this week: will answer your questions (again) in a bit, Talitha.

[Mr. Flay]

It's inside knowledge that I don't think a player looks suspicious when you do? I'm with Dourgrim on this one, you're awfully high-and-mighty here. Especially for someone who led a bad lynch yesterday (you and IS, technically, but he at least didn't try to give it any pretext).

It was nothing to do with you disagreeing with me at all. It was your reaction to Assasin's vote for Dourgrim on Page

1

. You said it was

mindless

. It was Assasin's first post. How did you know it was mindless and not a result of some information he might have? (I have said this several times before and have yet to get a satisfactory answer).

Here, *again*, are the reasons I thought Assasin's vote was "mindless and weird":

Vote Dourgrim

Note: This was the second vote on Dourgrim, and the entirety of his post. Which is exactly what I said two posts later:

FOS: Assasin for stacking a second vote on with no explanation whatsoever.

Then three posts later...

I voted Dourgrim because he's evil, and I didn't need IS to tell me that

A cop with a lucky investigation MIGHT have come out on Day One, even though it was probably suicide. I found the likelihood of this extremely small, though, so I FOS'ed him. Since he didn't want to explain what he was up to, it looked like a straight bandwagon. Hence, I voted for him in post 27. Incidentally, I had to unvote you to do so, and you've been badgering me ever since. What gives? In the words of people who've played a lot longer than me,

"It's a little early to be defending people, isn't it?

Mr Flay hadn't posted, but Assassin did, saying his vote was random.

Why are you taking him at his word? "random votes" are the easiest way to get on a bandwagon and defer suspicion, so one might suspect that the belated explanation was crafted after he drew some heat (not much, I admit, but he's been keeping his head down ever since).

The fact that you did jump to that conclusion (and were right!), is why I am voting for you. If you know that Dour is innocent because you're scum...

Right. As I said at the time, I wasn't voting for Assasin because Dourgrim was verifiably innocent in my eyes, but because Assasin was acting funny. The first second-vote of a game got my FOS, his "explanation" got my vote. Why are we still having this discussion (aside from the obvious distraction from your leading the lynch of Dourgrim)??

And then more of the same in posts 94, 115, 117, 118, 128/129, etc...

So why am I more suspicious than IS? Or anyone else who voted for Dour? Because I tried to engage the person I was voting for?

Essentially, yes. I could accept Assasin making a newbie mistake, if a poor one. I could accept IS's random vote because he ALWAYS votes out of the blue, and nobody ever seems to want to lynch him without an investigation. I said in post 46 "IS: I'm sure it goes without saying, but I *hate* your playing style.... I'd vote you if I thought it would do any good.". I did in the only prior game we played together (Hobbit mafia), but I don't think anyone else did the entire game. He's just one of those players who has the legendary status/ability. Depending on his behavior today, I might try again: I don't ascribe to the worship of the elder players, which is why we're having this conversation.

You had the strongest claims against Dourgrim yesterday, and ended up leading to a deadline-based lynch (as I stated when I voted, I didn't particularly think he was guilty but the day was going to drag on until deadline, unless a raft of players suddenly saw things otherwise). Dourgrim had enough votes to be deadline-lynched since 12/8/04. On 12/27 Cubsfan put a deadline for five days out (1/2)...at least three people were already locked-in on their votes.

And calling me high-and-mighty just makes me want to throw things. Last I checked my vote only counted for one. I didn't lynch Dour all by myself. And it's not like I bullied everyone into voting for Dourgrim. Nor am I trying to bully anyone into voting for you. They can all freaking vote for me, for all I care right now.

Fine. Your anger issues are not my problem; I'm merely pointing out what I see as suspicious behavior, in that you were the strongest proponent of the erroneous lynch yesterday.

Who else might I be suspicious of based on that criteria?

Internet Stranger?

We discussed this above. I'm not "clever" enough to assail his Paragon status, and if I tried it'd probably just get me lynched too. I don't think he's acting particularly scummy or innocent (for IS) in this game so far, though. You said yourself in post 51 that nobody wants to lynch IS on Day One.

Assasin?

I'm more likely to ascribe to him newbie status right now than I was when I initially voted for him, but if you come up as evil I know where I'm going next... especially with this from post 144:

I have to say you're looking quite suspicious by sitting there and not saying anything Assasin.

But I don't like to lynch newbies on Day 1, even if they are wearing a badge that says 'I'm scum' on it.

Why not? I mean, aside from metagame reasons of not making someone leave the site when they get voted off the island in their first game, why would you automatically ascribe to newbies an 'innocent' badge that they haven't earned? I've been in five games now, counting this one, and by some counts I'm a newbie. I don't expect anyone to cut me any slack based on my number of posts or number of games; I expect to be voted up or down based on my

behavior in that game

.
justinl? He voted for DG fourth (after you) with the famous "yeah, whatever" vote. Putting Dourgrim two away from lynch was a little cavalier for that sort of post, and since he's on your side in today's press (on me), I'm equally happy voting for him or you right now. He seems to be crafting some retroactive reasoning in post 216. "something about you yesterday was rubbing me wrong and I regret not saying anything about it then " yeah, whatever.

nonny?

nonny was lurking a lot before the holidays, and a lot of us were busy. Right now we're in a full-fledged fit of lurkerdom but she's not off my radar. If you'll notice, all of these people I've either voted for or (in IS's case) said I would vote for. It's not like I'm really singling you out, Talitha, whereas you seem to be engaged in the same "spat" with me today that you were in with Dourgrim yesterday. Yesterday it got a townie lynched. What happens today? I don't trust you in this game; not that I really trust anybody, but right now you're my best lead.

KingEnigma?

I really don't have anything productive here. His posts have been pretty random at best, so I can't really get a read on what his scummishness is. Insane people make my head hurt...

myself?

I put the lynching vote on Dourgrim because we'd reached a stalemate. No one was budging their vote (except maybe Maverick who unvoted you, inexplicably), we were in the middle of the winter holidays, and Dourgrim had already claimed. I said, and he said, and IS and I don't know how many others, "time to lynch the claimed townie and move on". Today, I have more information to go against the people who voted for him. Congratulations.

I'd have thought you'd want to re-evaluate your strategy after lynching Dourgrim, but you're intent to continue steering the boat.

I am simply voting for who I think is scum. The others can and will do what they want. You really sound like you're afraid people will listen to me.

I'm willing to gamble on you being it, just like you were willing to gamble on Dourgrim yesterday. Are you game, Talitha?

You don't sound very confident here, about me being scum....

How much more confident can I sound? I'll gladly put my head on the chopping block tomorrow if you come up innocent today. You made a bad choice yesterday and you're trying to weasel out of ANY responsibility for it. Are you willing to make that same risk? (rhetorical, of course: you already said you don't care if people vote for you or not)

[Mr. Flay]

It's inside knowledge that I don't think a player looks suspicious when you do? I'm with Dourgrim on this one, you're awfully high-and-mighty here. Especially for someone who led a bad lynch yesterday (you and IS, technically, but he at least didn't try to give it any pretext).

It was nothing to do with you disagreeing with me at all. It was your reaction to Assasin's vote for Dourgrim on Page

1

. You said it was

mindless

. It was Assasin's first post. How did you know it was mindless and not a result of some information he might have? (I have said this several times before and have yet to get a satisfactory answer).

Here, *again*, are the reasons I thought Assasin's vote was "mindless and weird":

Vote Dourgrim

Note: This was the second vote on Dourgrim, and the entirety of his post. Which is exactly what I said two posts later:

FOS: Assasin for stacking a second vote on with no explanation whatsoever.

Then three posts later...

I voted Dourgrim because he's evil, and I didn't need IS to tell me that

A cop with a lucky investigation MIGHT have come out on Day One, even though it was probably suicide. I found the likelihood of this extremely small, though, so I FOS'ed him. Since he didn't want to explain what he was up to, it looked like a straight bandwagon. Hence, I voted for him in post 27. Incidentally, I had to unvote you to do so, and you've been badgering me ever since. What gives? In the words of people who've played a lot longer than me,

"It's a little early to be defending people, isn't it?

Mr Flay hadn't posted, but Assassin did, saying his vote was random.

Why are you taking him at his word? "random votes" are the easiest way to get on a bandwagon and defer suspicion, so one might suspect that the belated explanation was crafted after he drew some heat (not much, I admit, but he's been keeping his head down ever since).

The fact that you did jump to that conclusion (and were right!), is why I am voting for you. If you know that Dour is innocent because you're scum...

Right. As I said at the time, I wasn't voting for Assasin because Dourgrim was verifiably innocent in my eyes, but because Assasin was acting funny. The first second-vote of a game got my FOS, his "explanation" got my vote. Why are we still having this discussion (aside from the obvious distraction from your leading the lynch of Dourgrim)??

And then more of the same in posts 94, 115, 117, 118, 128/129, etc...

So why am I more suspicious than IS? Or anyone else who voted for Dour? Because I tried to engage the person I was voting for?

Essentially, yes. I could accept Assasin making a newbie mistake, if a poor one. I could accept IS's random vote because he ALWAYS votes out of the blue, and nobody ever seems to want to lynch him without an investigation. I said in post 46 "IS: I'm sure it goes without saying, but I *hate* your playing style.... I'd vote you if I thought it would do any good.". I did in the only prior game we played together (Hobbit mafia), but I don't think anyone else did the entire game. He's just one of those players who has the legendary status/ability. Depending on his behavior today, I might try again: I don't ascribe to the worship of the elder players, which is why we're having this conversation.

You had the strongest claims against Dourgrim yesterday, and ended up leading to a deadline-based lynch (as I stated when I voted, I didn't particularly think he was guilty but the day was going to drag on until deadline, unless a raft of players suddenly saw things otherwise). Dourgrim had enough votes to be deadline-lynched since 12/8/04. On 12/27 Cubsfan put a deadline for five days out (1/2)...at least three people were already locked-in on their votes.

And calling me high-and-mighty just makes me want to throw things. Last I checked my vote only counted for one. I didn't lynch Dour all by myself. And it's not like I bullied everyone into voting for Dourgrim. Nor am I trying to bully anyone into voting for you. They can all freaking vote for me, for all I care right now.

Fine. Your anger issues are not my problem; I'm merely pointing out what I see as suspicious behavior, in that you were the strongest proponent of the erroneous lynch yesterday.

Who else might I be suspicious of based on that criteria?

Internet Stranger?

We discussed this above. I'm not "clever" enough to assail his Paragon status, and if I tried it'd probably just get me lynched too. I don't think he's acting particularly scummy or innocent (for IS) in this game so far, though. You said yourself in post 51 that nobody wants to lynch IS on Day One.

Assasin?

I'm more likely to ascribe to him newbie status right now than I was when I initially voted for him, but if you come up as evil I know where I'm going next... especially with this from post 144:

I have to say you're looking quite suspicious by sitting there and not saying anything Assasin.

But I don't like to lynch newbies on Day 1, even if they are wearing a badge that says 'I'm scum' on it.

Why not? I mean, aside from metagame reasons of not making someone leave the site when they get voted off the island in their first game, why would you automatically ascribe to newbies an 'innocent' badge that they haven't earned? I've been in five games now, counting this one, and by some counts I'm a newbie. I don't expect anyone to cut me any slack based on my number of posts or number of games; I expect to be voted up or down based on my

behavior in that game

.
justinl? He voted for DG fourth (after you) with the famous "yeah, whatever" vote. Putting Dourgrim two away from lynch was a little cavalier for that sort of post, and since he's on your side in today's press (on me), I'm equally happy voting for him or you right now. He seems to be crafting some retroactive reasoning in post 216. "something about you yesterday was rubbing me wrong and I regret not saying anything about it then " yeah, whatever.

nonny?

nonny was lurking a lot before the holidays, and a lot of us were busy. Right now we're in a full-fledged fit of lurkerdom but she's not off my radar. If you'll notice, all of these people I've either voted for or (in IS's case) said I would vote for. It's not like I'm really singling you out, Talitha, whereas you seem to be engaged in the same "spat" with me today that you were in with Dourgrim yesterday. Yesterday it got a townie lynched. What happens today? I don't trust you in this game; not that I really trust anybody, but right now you're my best lead.

KingEnigma?

I really don't have anything productive here. His posts have been pretty random at best, so I can't really get a read on what his scummishness is. Insane people make my head hurt...

myself?

I put the lynching vote on Dourgrim because we'd reached a stalemate. No one was budging their vote (except maybe Maverick who unvoted you, inexplicably), we were in the middle of the winter holidays, and Dourgrim had already claimed. I said, and he said, and IS and I don't know how many others, "time to lynch the claimed townie and move on". Today, I have more information to go against the people who voted for him. Congratulations.

I'd have thought you'd want to re-evaluate your strategy after lynching Dourgrim, but you're intent to continue steering the boat.

I am simply voting for who I think is scum. The others can and will do what they want. You really sound like you're afraid people will listen to me.

I'm willing to gamble on you being it, just like you were willing to gamble on Dourgrim yesterday. Are you game, Talitha?

You don't sound very confident here, about me being scum....

How much more confident can I sound? I'll gladly put my head on the chopping block tomorrow if you come up innocent today. You made a bad choice yesterday and you're trying to weasel out of ANY responsibility for it. Are you willing to make that same risk? (rhetorical, of course: you already said you don't care if people vote for you or not)

[Mr. Flay]

IS, why the switch?

Talitha: No, you don't sound condescending at all. I know the first day often doesn't go the town's way (puzzlingly, the only "Normal" game I've been in was The Hobbit, which was teh br0k3n).

I'll wait on anything else until you get a chance to respond. You were patient with me...etc.

[Mr. Flay]

A cop with a lucky investigation MIGHT have come out on Day One, even though it was probably suicide.

Why would it be suicide?

I'm not fond of Day One claims, especially by cops, because it marks them with a bullseye should the doctor ever die or be otherwise occupied. Plus on Day One it wasn't very clear whether there was one killing group or two...

In the words of people who've played a lot longer than me, "It's a little early to be defending people, isn't it?

Could you please explain this further. Who was I defending? Assasin?

Yeah. The converse of me disbelieving Assasin immediately is that you've believed him implicitly since the very beginning.

Why are you taking him (Assasin) at his word? "random votes" are the easiest way to get on a bandwagon and defer suspicion, so one might suspect that the belated explanation was crafted after he drew some heat (not much, I admit, but he's been keeping his head down ever since).

I wasn't taking him at his word, but what he said confirmed to me that he was NOT a cop coming forward with info. At that point my suspicion of you (and him, incidentally) rose significantly (because you already seemed to know he wasn't a cop). I'm still not entirely sure whether this was a scummy slip on your part, or whether you just saw it different to me.

I don't know quite what to make of Assasin, but I think you're ascribing him a lot more competence than he's displayed thus far. What if he WAS a cop, and did the "oh that was just a random vote" thing to make up for his earlier slip? Obviously with DG coming up innocent, that's much less likely, but you believed him right from the beginning. I still think the "I don't need IS to tell me he's evil" is the most incriminating bit of his initial posts.

You had the strongest claims against Dourgrim yesterday (....) you were the strongest proponent of the erroneous lynch yesterday.

You need to take this a step further and demonstrate how this makes me scummy. In my experience the people pushing hard and vocally against someone on Day 1 are most often town.

I'm not sure I can (at least, not with one Day's sample). I find it suspicious how hard you pressed against Dourgrim yesterday and against me today, but I'm willing to put it off for now.

Unvote: Talitha, FOS: Talitha

(snip)

You made a bad choice yesterday and you're trying to weasel out of ANY responsibility for it.

First, I don't believe I made a bad choice yesterday. Could've ended better but I believe it was the best decision at the time. Secondly, that statement should equally apply to

you

. I have not tried to weasel out of responsibility for anything. But you're suggesting that because I argued with Dour yesterday, rather than acting like I wasn't sure or just casually slipping my vote on him, that I am somehow the most scummy on the lynch. Nuh uh. Take responsibility for your own vote Flay. At least *I* thought Dour was scummy. If you didn't want him to be lynched you could've voted for me and tried to get others to do the same, or petitioned the mod for more time.

I did vote for you earlier in the day. Things dragged so hard at the end there that I forgot for a while I had unvoted you, and by the time I noticed we had a deadline set. Three people expressly said they weren't going to move their vote off of Dourgrim, so he was going to be lynched eventually, whether at deadline or with a majority. You're probably right that it was foolish to vote for him myself, but I was frustrated with the pace of the game and wanted to collect some data.



I really hope things pick up soon. I count five people so far who've said "I'll post later, I need more time". However Assasin seems to be the only one trying to misrepresent himself:

Plus at least I'm staying posted unlike Nonny, King Enigma, and Justinl.

Hi, sorry I haven't talked. I forgot to check in on this game and iv'e been pretty preoccupied. Will respond with more info later when I have more time.

Vote: Assasin

for all the same reasons I did yesterday, and continued lurking.

I'm waiting with bated breath.

[Mr. Flay]

Justin, is that last part (about your memory going blank) actually part of this game? If not and it's your signature, it''s fairly distracting/confusing...

Thanks for unvoting. It's not that I necessarily am less suspicious of Talitha right now, but my individual suspicions of her aren't shared by the group and aren't advancing the day; we're getting into a he said, she said...

And Assasin is acting *really* strange still. I'm not sure if he's just new and unfamiliar with the game or confused scum (I was scum in my first game too, it wasn't easy) but he's consistently flipped my triggers. Talitha at least makes logical statements...

[Mr. Flay]

I guess signatures have a greater dividing line...either you got roleblocked by EVH (drinking binge?) or it's flavor text associated with your role/lack of role...

Hey Cubsfan, can we get a vote count for this page?

[Mr. Flay]

EVH?

Sorry, tick was Eddie Van Halen... part of his roleblocking may possibly have involved getting you stoned/drunk/smashed with him, hence forgetting your entire night...

And Talitha, stop

agreeing with me

making me agree with you, it looks bad for my arguments earlier.

Maverick, why are you confused? I mean, you've confused me at times (especially in the "I support this lynch but I won't vote for this lynch" yesterday on Talitha), but this day is going slow as molasses...there's hardly anything to get confused on.


Whhhhhheeeerrrreeee iiiiiiissss eeeeevvveeerryyyyybooooodddddyyy????

[Mr. Flay]

Oh, that I can answer (while I'm waiting for the end of my Friday):

In post 257, justinl made some comments at the end that were separated by "-----" from the rest of his message. It looked like a signature line, but it seemed like it might have had to do with this game, so I asked him to clarify...turns out it was indeed part of this game, which is where the EVH thing came in. Looks like tick felt reason to block justinl last night, or so it appears...

[Mr. Flay]

Unvote

What about King Enigma and Mastermind Of Sin?

Diversionary tactics are not what's called for here. You're at either 3/5 or 4/5, and either way you'd better start coming up with something to defend yourself, as opposed to just shifting blame.

Me, I'm still curious about why you have been posting just enough to be noticed but not actually saying anything of note. You've only voted twice, once for Dourgrim and once for JustinL... and most of your other posts are "I have no idea what's going on." You must have some opinion on something, we've been playing for almost two months...

[Mr. Flay]

Unvote

What about King Enigma and Mastermind Of Sin?

Diversionary tactics are not what's called for here. You're at either 3/5 or 4/5, and either way you'd better start coming up with something to defend yourself, as opposed to just shifting blame.

Me, I'm still curious about why you have been posting just enough to be noticed but not actually saying anything of note. You've only voted twice, once for Dourgrim and once for JustinL... and most of your other posts are "I have no idea what's going on." You must have some opinion on something, we've been playing for almost two months...

[Mr. Flay]

*smacks forehead* Another townie role...well, failing a counterclaim by another Richards, can you address a little more of why you said "I don't need IS to tell me he (Dourgrim) is evil" on Day One? I'm still hung up on that initial impression...

Unvote: Assasin

long enough for him to respond...and maybe to get an accurate vote count from the mod.

[Mr. Flay]

*smacks forehead* Rhythm Guitarist for the Rolling Stones, bears a striking resemblance to a zombie (some say he's had his blood replaced with embalming fluid). Famous heroin (and other drugs) addict...and quite a guitarist.

I'd say I'd be surprised if he's not in this game, but I couldn't have predicted Allen Hollsworth, and didn't expect Johnny Rotten...so clearly we're working from different songbooks here.

[Mr. Flay]

And we had Johnny Ramone rather than Rotten. If Johnny Rotten turns up I'll lynch him in a heartbeat.

*checks notes* You're right, I had written down Rotten, not Ramone...that makes a lot more sense now.

On the scale of guitarists who might be scum, I think Richards applies even if he's not a false roleclaim. So far everything I know about roles can be tied in *some* way to the actual person, so I guess without knowing who the scum are we can't assume a guitar player is safe. Maybe rhythm guitarists vs. lead guitarists?

Still want a vote count before I revote, though. Work's too busy today for me to do one by hand...

[Mr. Flay]

The way I count it, Assasin has three votes right now (IS, Talitha, MOS), and an almost-vote from me. Nobody else has any votes, and both justinl and Assasin have voted but since taken it back. Nonny, Maverick, and KingEnigma haven't voted at all. That should be 9...somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Okay, the lead guitarist/rhythm guitarist line is a little fuzzy in some bands, but as far as I can tell:

Johnny Ramone is (was?) a lead guitarist.
Allan Holdsworth is a lead guitarist in jazz/fusion primarily.
Eddie Van Halen is a lead guitarist of course.

And for completeness, my role is a lead guitarist.

Of course, none of this is conclusive: Keith Richards is a major force in Rolling Stones' music. Despite not having the official title of "lead guitarist", he's generally better known than the men who have careened through the use of that title...

I honestly don't think Assasin is lying, and have never really thought he was scummy, but we lynched dourgrim after he claimed town, why wouldn't we lynch Assasin? I'm not saying we should lynch him, I'm just curious, is that like a strategy of some sort? Or was it just because it was day one..?

Day One is a different beast than any other day of the game; the town has the least information at that point because there's been no verifiable information presented in thread, and the scummy players already know who the town is and their suspicions of the remaining roles are probably honed from Night One's results. Failing someone crumbling under pressure or a lucky strike by town bandwagon, you're relatively unlike (<33%?) to lynch a scum that day. If we had more participation, we'd probably be doing better today... instead we have multiple lurkers.

[Mr. Flay]

I've been posting just I have nothing to really add currently.

You've been posting? Where?!?

Are you going to be more active now that Dreamcatcher is over?

[Mr. Flay]

Do you think we should go over possible roles? I mean there arn't to many legendary guitar players. I assume that is what were dealing with, maybe not.

Man, I'm getting

deja vu

all over again...

Cubsfan

, can we please get an official vote count? I feel like there are so many lurkers (and yes, I saw that IS' internet is out in the V/LA thread)

[Mr. Flay]

Talitha, can you expand on that a bit more? I thought IS was saying that he's sure of Assasin, who he's already voting for if I remember the last vote count, partially because nonny won't vote for him.

It's making me suspicious too; our scum must be laughing themselves silly in the shadows as we chase our tails (assuming IS hasn't done the IS-thing and spotted two of them right out). I'm more comfortable with Assasin though:

Revote: Assasin

if I haven't before. I'm pretty sure that's two away from lynch (though I still want a vote count).

[Mr. Flay]

Talitha, can you expand on that a bit more? I thought IS was saying that he's sure of Assasin, who he's already voting for if I remember the last vote count, partially because nonny won't vote for him.

It's making me suspicious too; our scum must be laughing themselves silly in the shadows as we chase our tails (assuming IS hasn't done the IS-thing and spotted two of them right out). I'm more comfortable with Assasin though:

Revote: Assasin

if I haven't before. I'm pretty sure that's two away from lynch (though I still want a vote count).

[Mr. Flay]

I'm really, truly, about fed up with this game. Cubsfan has been absent from the site since the 3rd or 4th, we haven't had an official vote count since the 26th of January, and Day Two started on the ides of January. And NO ONE is POSTING!!

Except for a brief fury of Talitha and I spitting things back and forth at each other, it's pretty much been "well that's my vote and I'm sticking with it", or "I don't have any suspicions. We're on page 13 here, folks...can it really be that hard to figure out who you MIGHT think is suspicious? Nobody talks, nobody votes, nobody gets lynched...and the scum walk away with it all!

We've got nine alive. Assuming no SK/second mafia/cult lurking in the shadows, we've got at least two more days left even if we lynch correctly today. But I shudder to think we'll still be playing this in March or April...

Gods, I sound like IS. Assasin has gone missing *again* now that the heat seems to be off...KingEnigma, why do you think everyone has something to hide? It's mafia, isn't that self-evident? Maverick, what is your gut telling you, so I can at least try to refute it? We saw how well that strategy worked yesterday with Dourgrim...

Please talk? Please?

[Mr. Flay]

now, dont you think i'm scummy?

No, because I happen to agree with you. I just looked at Assasin's posting record and he's active in his other games and even signing up for new ones, but completely silent here. Maybe he assumed he got lynched here, but the only reason I see to give up when your lynch is imminent is when you're a dying scum...

Oh, I forgot justinl, are you still out there? IS, are you back from being disconnected?

[Mr. Flay]

you should probably not use your real name when claiming, unless asked to, because it gives mafia better chances

Wait, what? How does claiming a rolename give the mafia an advantage? I noticed you didn't give one when you claimed, but this is a strategy I've never heard of before.

So Talitha was town. Assasin was town. Where does that leave us, aside from one-day-from-doom? Unfortunately my role doesn't help me with any answers now, but I'm not sure yet I understand the advantages/disadvantages of a massrole/name claim today...

[Mr. Flay]

justinl: I guess that makes sense, I've just never heard of preferring to give roles rather than names before.

I guess my big question is who would have cause to kill Talitha. She'd been wrong twice already, it's not like she had a lot of credibility. Maverick seems to be the only person on her hit list at the end of the day, and barring a counterclaim to IS I think I could vote for him (obviously not yet). She was one of the most active players, which might be reason enough to vote her off, although I'm surprised I survived by that metric.

I still think we're getting led around in circles. I can't counterclaim IS or justinl's role, by the way. Who do we still need to hear from, besides Maverick? MoS?

[Mr. Flay]

I still think we're getting led around in circles.

I should clarify that statement. I don't particularly disbelieve justin *or* IS, I thinkwe've been led in circles, up to and including last night, to get us to where we're at today.

I'm not going to voice all of my suspicions at this point until everyone's spoken up.

[Mr. Flay]

Maverick hasn't posted since Saturday...can we get a prod, cubs?

IS, I don't think anyone wants to rush through this day, but it certainly is a very different game now...

[Mr. Flay]

So you *both* investigated Talitha (unsurprising, now that she's dead, and previously one of the most active players). You both got innocent for her, so you can't be insane or paranoid.

You both found one scum, conveniently last night. That means you can't be naive, so you must be sane OR lying. Unless there's some sort of roleblocker/result-shifter out there, or a random cop, which I can't really conceive of...

IS got Maverick and Mav was already on my list for killing Assassin suddenly yesterday. However Maverick says he got me as a guilty result, after IS fingered him, which means he's identified two players he feels certain are scum. If either of us isn't, we lose the game. Maverick's got it pretty easy, doesn't he? Since I'm not scum, that means he is, so

Vote: Maverick

. I was all set to vote for IS too, but then I googled his roleclaim...Andy Summers was the guitar player for The Police.

nonny, if you don't mind, it might help the town at this point to give us your name? I have a suspicion that power roles' names have *something* to do with what they do, and I can't figure out why Jimi would be a cop...

4) It seems like Mr. Flay believed me way too easily when what I said would get him off the hook.

justin, what are you talking about here? I haven't believed most of what you said, in retrospect, but what did you say that 'got me off the hook'?

[Mr. Flay]

Night one I investigated KingEnigma, because there was nobody else to investigate I had no idea about who seemed scummy, so it was completely random. But Day 1 I found Talitha suspicious, but nobody else did, that night I investigated Talitha, and she came up innocent, so my only lead was demolished. Day 2 I told you guys that I had a gut feeling about Mr. Flay, I ended up voting Assasin for the final lynch only to investigate during night. So last night I investigated Mr. Flay, and sure enough it was a guilty. Now why is it today, before I even say anything Internet Stranger decides to come out as cop when he knows he's scum?

I'm not even sure where to start tearing this apart...maybe IS came out because he was under suspicion (from Talitha, via justinl) and finally had confirmation of his sanity? Maybe IS has no life and hangs around the board a lot more often than you do?

Why investigate KE on Night One? There were a horde of better/more experienced players (no offense, KE) to verify...for instance, why not investigate IS right from the start? Your choices seem odd, even aside from the already-discussed-to-death "I was the only one who found Talitha suspicious Day One". I voted for her both days, as I recall.

Anyways, I do have to hand it to IS, and Mr. Flay.. Andy Summers, very clever.

Not really. Based on IS's name/role, my name and role, arguably nonny's name/role (assuming she's telling the truth) from a certain perverse sense of humor...and whoever had EVH the bingeing roleblocker, it makes sense that one's name *might* have something to do with one's role for the non-townies. Even if you hadn't supposedly found me guilty, I'd have a harder time seeing Jimi Hendrix as a cop than a member of The Police.

I don't know what else to tell you. You cast your net wide today and it might gain you a win, but I'm not budging my vote. KingEnigma, what about you?

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry for the doublepost, didn't see this...

I've been thinking about this since yesterday. I didn't want to respond until i had time to think it over, because what IS had said really pissed me off.

Heh, welcome to mafiascum...he pissed me off the first game I was in with him too.

IS's whole argument is that he was the first one to claim. If he's scum, he would also have to be able to finger the cop to create this kind of situation, but as a player of IS's caliber, and being scum, this isn't very hard.

Think about what you're saying here, justin. IS would have had to identify the cop and then *decide not to kill him*, as scum, for this scenario to work. Why would he leave a cop alive intentionally?

If you reread, maverick is by far more innocent. IS has already handed the town 2 townies. IS was even pushing for a fast lynch on the last day in a lynch or lose situation (which he says is always his strategy)

IS wasn't the only one to "hand the town" those townies. Talitha, myself...several of us voted for both (I don't have time to go back through all 20+ pages right now). I was most suspicious of IS today until Maverick piped up... we still don't know who his partners are, but with a lynch-or-lose, did you expect IS to hold back?

nonny's still alive, assuming she's actually the doctor that gives us one more night of investigations if we judge right today. Actually, whoever the doctor is will protect the cop if they're still alive after this face-off...

As far as maverick thinking he was the only one suspicious of tally, it's just an observational error, not scummy.

It was an observational error on Day One when he was first called on it, now it's just misdirection, IMO.

[Mr. Flay]

Actually IS, I have been posting more now, 1. because I am now ungrounded from the computer, and can post more frequently as I said before. and 2. The town needs me to post now, because if I just gave up we'd lose.

I just find it convenient that you've lurked and waffled for the first two days, and now suddenly come out with a fully formed plan that just happens to name all three scum. It's a little too pat that you suddenly come off being grounded and post 3x as much now that you only need one wrong lynch to win it all.

[Mr. Flay]

Assuming there's enough time when you get back, justinl, can you explain why you believe Maverick over Internet Stranger? Looking back over your posts I don't think you've said anything directly to Maverick before dawn today, which is suspicious in and of itself. Now Maverick comes out with a full-blown theory, conveniently able to post more in the end-game, and only needs any one of three people to be lynched. Coincidentally it's the most active players remaining, with the other active person, Talitha, dying last night.

For the record, I'm

Dave Mustaine

, since there's a focus on me right now. Maybe that'll help clear things up, unless someone else wants to try to claim the name.

[Mr. Flay]

Hello? KingEnigma, everyone's waiting on you...

[Mr. Flay]

Are we still here?

First off, it's pretty obvious that Mr. Flay is working with IS. He's trying to be the voice of reason. It's kindof stupid how he's asking me questions while i'm voting for him like we are both neutral bystanders.

What? *smacks forehead* It's stupid of me to ask you questions when you're the only "confirmed" innocent? I think you're being misled, and trying to change your mind, is all.

Fact 1: Maverick found me guilty when I know otherwise.
Fact 2: The supposed sanity for both cops is known, unless they're random, in which case I'll quit right now.
Fact 3: Since Maverick's results don't match with any known cop type, I'm voting for him as scum. The fact that I agree with IS on this is because IS *is* the cop in my estimation. You can disagree and say we should all agree with you, but being "innocent" doesn't make you infalliable. Assuming we have three mafia in this game, this is our last chance. Why shouldn't I keep talking to you?
Fact 4 (if it's really needed): I always argue with my accusers. It's called 'a defense', and I'd rather do that than roll over any day, regardless of whether I happen to be town or scum in that game.

It happens to work out that Maverick's three scum are (or were) all voting for him. Why? Because he's counterclaimed one of them, claimed to investigate another, and says the other is "most suspicious" (more on that later). Shouldn't the people being accused vote for the person trying to get them lynched? Obviously those still on the sidelines have to make up their mind, but for IS and I, it's pretty obvious why we'd be "on the same side".

I actually think MoS is scum with Maverick, and that his unvote helps prove it. As someone said earlier in the game, he's been on everyone's sh-t list at some point in the game, and I called him out earlier for parrotting everyone else's posts. There's a lot more little reasons, but I'm *sure* Maverick is scum for the above reasons.

I don't even understand KingEnigma's post. I'll check back later tonight but I don't expect I'll be alive then...

[Mr. Flay]

Are we still here?

First off, it's pretty obvious that Mr. Flay is working with IS. He's trying to be the voice of reason. It's kindof stupid how he's asking me questions while i'm voting for him like we are both neutral bystanders.

What? *smacks forehead* It's stupid of me to ask you questions when you're the only "confirmed" innocent? I think you're being misled, and trying to change your mind, is all.

Fact 1: Maverick found me guilty when I know otherwise.
Fact 2: The supposed sanity for both cops is known, unless they're random, in which case I'll quit right now.
Fact 3: Since Maverick's results don't match with any known cop type, I'm voting for him as scum. The fact that I agree with IS on this is because IS *is* the cop in my estimation. You can disagree and say we should all agree with you, but being "innocent" doesn't make you infalliable. Assuming we have three mafia in this game, this is our last chance. Why shouldn't I keep talking to you?
Fact 4 (if it's really needed): I always argue with my accusers. It's called 'a defense', and I'd rather do that than roll over any day, regardless of whether I happen to be town or scum in that game.

It happens to work out that Maverick's three scum are (or were) all voting for him. Why? Because he's counterclaimed one of them, claimed to investigate another, and says the other is "most suspicious" (more on that later). Shouldn't the people being accused vote for the person trying to get them lynched? Obviously those still on the sidelines have to make up their mind, but for IS and I, it's pretty obvious why we'd be "on the same side".

I actually think MoS is scum with Maverick, and that his unvote helps prove it. As someone said earlier in the game, he's been on everyone's sh-t list at some point in the game, and I called him out earlier for parrotting everyone else's posts. There's a lot more little reasons, but I'm *sure* Maverick is scum for the above reasons.

I don't even understand KingEnigma's post. I'll check back later tonight but I don't expect I'll be alive then...

[Mr. Flay]

1) I am confirmed innocent because no-one has counterclaimed my masonness with talitha

For the sake of completeness, I will state that there have been evil masons before. Have you even given a role name yet? Maybe you're an ex-bandmate of Clapton's who was jealous, or you're the guy who Clapton replaced somewhere...you seem awfully confident that just because you're a mason, we should all believe you. It's not a sure thing. *NOTHING* in Mafia is a sure thing unless the mod says it or a cop of verified sanity says it, and even then sometimes...

2) Maverick has claimed cop and says Mr. Flay is guilty.
3) This means that either Maverick is scum, or Mr. Flay is scum. (or both are scum, as IS has pointed out)

With you so far...

4) We are in a lynch or lose situation, and if we are not, then if we lynch wrong today (choosing from mav and flay) we have guaranteed scum tomorrow. -- But we assume we are in a lynch or lose
5) In a lynch or lose it only takes one innocent's vote on another innocent for the mafia to be able to jump on them and get a lynch.
6) I have voted for Mr. Flay and am innocent (confirmed).
7) Therefore Mr. Flay cannot be innocent because if he was, the mafia would have bandwagoned to kill him.

Not quite. IS already mentioned one possibility; another is that the mafia are playing it careful because there are already several votes out there, and they could be easily switched before the rush-lynch is completed. This makes more sense in my head because some of the scummiest people around are the least active posters. Additionally, if there are only two scum, then they can't force a lynch that easily...especially if MoS is one of them.

KingEnigma, can you explain your last post a little better? I don't get it, at all.

Maverick has thrown his blanket of suspicions out there and now he's letting suspicion fester by laying low (again). Did you get grounded again, Mav?

[Mr. Flay]

1) I am confirmed innocent because no-one has counterclaimed my masonness with talitha

For the sake of completeness, I will state that there have been evil masons before. Have you even given a role name yet? Maybe you're an ex-bandmate of Clapton's who was jealous, or you're the guy who Clapton replaced somewhere...you seem awfully confident that just because you're a mason, we should all believe you. It's not a sure thing. *NOTHING* in Mafia is a sure thing unless the mod says it or a cop of verified sanity says it, and even then sometimes...

2) Maverick has claimed cop and says Mr. Flay is guilty.
3) This means that either Maverick is scum, or Mr. Flay is scum. (or both are scum, as IS has pointed out)

With you so far...

4) We are in a lynch or lose situation, and if we are not, then if we lynch wrong today (choosing from mav and flay) we have guaranteed scum tomorrow. -- But we assume we are in a lynch or lose
5) In a lynch or lose it only takes one innocent's vote on another innocent for the mafia to be able to jump on them and get a lynch.
6) I have voted for Mr. Flay and am innocent (confirmed).
7) Therefore Mr. Flay cannot be innocent because if he was, the mafia would have bandwagoned to kill him.

Not quite. IS already mentioned one possibility; another is that the mafia are playing it careful because there are already several votes out there, and they could be easily switched before the rush-lynch is completed. This makes more sense in my head because some of the scummiest people around are the least active posters. Additionally, if there are only two scum, then they can't force a lynch that easily...especially if MoS is one of them.

KingEnigma, can you explain your last post a little better? I don't get it, at all.

Maverick has thrown his blanket of suspicions out there and now he's letting suspicion fester by laying low (again). Did you get grounded again, Mav?

[Mr. Flay]

*Smacks Mr. Flay in the head* I know your scum, and that your are trying to convince my team that I am scum to win, which is fine with me, because that is what your supposed to do. But please don't be a jackass about it.. "Mav, are you grounded again". That made me mad.

You're mad? I'm sad. You *are* lurking again, you've been lurking most of this game, except when you came on to counterclaim Internet Stranger as the cop and point the scummy finger at everybody and their sister. You've had a million excuses, but it doesn't change the behavior.

So let's kill Flay.

You know, I'd be tempted to go ahead and vote for myself if it would just solve this dilemma and prove you both wrong, but the basic fact of the matter is *I don't believe we get another chance*. If you lynch me as town, then the game's over and no amount of I-told-you-so's is going to make up for it.

Am I taking this personal? Sure. This is only the second game (out of 6 here) I've gotten to play as town, and I was part of the winning side the first time. Now Maverick's little half-ass counterclaim and some patient scum threaten to take that down. I'm not changing my vote, but I don't know what else to say to convince the town.

[Mr. Flay]

Unfortunately, IS, there's nothing for the rest of the town proving he's 100% scum, because he made a counterclaim for cop. You know, and I know, because he's counterclaimed you and pointed a finger at me, but other than that it's up in the air. I'm not sure *why*, but...

Nonny, when I was grounded and had to make a night choice it took me at least a couple of days to make the choice. One night it took at least a week, maybe longer. I went a day past the deadline.

I'm not sure what more proof justinl needs. You're saying cubsfan let you make a decision past the deadline, that just happened to put us in the situation we're in today? I'm curious, which night was that? Unless it was the long night when cubsfan was gone/lost access, I'm not buying it (and it can't be then, because he asked for night actions twice that time around).

nonny, justinl; I'm pretty sure you're not scum, so think carefully about what you're doing. Your supposed "cop" is continuing to lurk and make nonsensical statements just when the heat is on, otherwise he's content to let us fight amongst ourselves. MoS could be innocent unless he's a godfather, and I'm not at all sure that KingEnigma is on the town's side. But maybe.

Any of you, please, give me a good reason why you think I'm scum, that doesn't have to do with the disputed cop claim?

[Mr. Flay]

I think that puts it down to you, nonny, after all. I'll answer any questions you have for me, but at this point I think I've said it all, for why I think/know Maverick is scum.

With you alive until dark, we'll get one more investigation tonight out of the true cop (assuming you guess right), so the game should be pretty well sewn up either way.

[Mr. Flay]

Uh... Justin.. how can I go from claiming youre an evil mason to then not having any substance to my posts?!?

If I am not an evil mason, then you are scum. I explained why Mr. Flay had to be gulity, and so it was brought up that I may be an evil mason because that is the only way Mr. Flay could still be innocent.

You're conveniently ignoring the other ways I mentioned that Maverick could be scum without you being an evil mason. *I* mentioned that possibility, not IS; only because I've seen it done. There's no proof yet of what the makeup of the mafia is; your theory is just that, a theory. Same as my theories, except I think I have more facts to back mine up.

You also neglect the fact that Maverick has proverbially given up and is doing the last ditch desperate effort technique to fool whoever is left. I have remained steadfast with my investigation behind me.

Maverick is frustrated, and doesn't put so much weight on winning. On the other hand, winning is very important to you. It's that simple.

Wow, glad you two got this worked out...so now you know Maverick's mind? If I didn't know better, I'd have thought you conversed last night...

It really doesn't matter what we say at this point, only what nonny decides, unless someone cracks under the pressure. How long has this day been going on?

Again, I'll answer any questions people have, but at this point there's just a lot of rhetoric flying and no new ideas. nonny?

[Mr. Flay]

You're conveniently ignoring the other ways I mentioned that Maverick could be scum without you being an evil mason.

so now you know Maverick's mind? If I didn't know better, I'd have thought you conversed last night...

1) Stop trying to play both sides of the die. It only serves to confuse. If you were acutally town you would be trying to find the truth, not using two opposing arguments to try to prove your point.

I know you think this makes you clever, but really, try to read for comprehension. "

If I didn't know better

means I don't

actually

think you're scum with Maverick, but the way you're talking means it's still a (remote) possibility.

2) Once again, if I am not an evil mason then you are scum.

You're repeating yourself, and not to good effect.

3) Yeah, I know Maverick's mind.. because I read the thread. I'll enlighten you with a brilliantly selected quote.

I'm at the point of not caring anymore because you guys are the most stubborn people I've ever played with.

I know it's hard, but if you read deep enough into it you can see where I got that Maverick is frustrated.

Really? Why would Maverick give up at this point? If he's town, then he's miraculously nailed two (or three) of the scum that have eluded us all game! But if Maverick is scum, then he knows he's got a good chance of getting lynched when nonny votes, and therefore has good reason to have given up.

does everyone agree that MoS is scummy?

Do I think MoS is scummy-acting? Sure. He's *still* parroting everyone else in the game, and not really putting forth much of his own information. Is it enough to vote for him rather than the person who is voting for me and saying he has an investigation proving me guilty? Not today. Lynch the right person today, and IS can investigate MoS tonight and we'll have more of an answer. Remember, whichever person turns out to be the cop, they're proven either sane or random, and I'm not betting on a random cop being here.

[Mr. Flay]

Same post, fixing the qouting problems (that'll teach me not to preview to avoid double-posting).

You're conveniently ignoring the other ways I mentioned that Maverick could be scum without you being an evil mason.

so now you know Maverick's mind? If I didn't know better, I'd have thought you conversed last night...

1) Stop trying to play both sides of the die. It only serves to confuse. If you were acutally town you would be trying to find the truth, not using two opposing arguments to try to prove your point.

I know you think this makes you clever, but really, try to read for comprehension. "

If I didn't know better

" means I don't

actually

think you're scum with Maverick, but the way you're talking means it's still a (remote) possibility.

2) Once again, if I am not an evil mason then you are scum.

You're repeating yourself, and not to good effect.

3) Yeah, I know Maverick's mind.. because I read the thread. I'll enlighten you with a brilliantly selected quote.

I'm at the point of not caring anymore because you guys are the most stubborn people I've ever played with.

I know it's hard, but if you read deep enough into it you can see where I got that Maverick is frustrated.

Really? Why would Maverick give up at this point? If he's town, then he's miraculously nailed two (or three) of the scum that have eluded us all game! But if Maverick is scum, then he knows he's got a good chance of getting lynched when nonny votes, and therefore has good reason to have given up.

does everyone agree that MoS is scummy?

Do I think MoS is scummy-acting? Sure. He's *still* parroting everyone else in the game, and not really putting forth much of his own information. Is it enough to vote for him rather than the person who is voting for me and saying he has an investigation proving me guilty? Not today. Lynch the right person today, and IS can investigate MoS tonight and we'll have more of an answer. Remember, whichever person turns out to be the cop, they're proven either sane or random, and I'm not betting on a random cop being here.

[Mr. Flay]

Is that my lynch?

Bah. At least the game's over...

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry, I thought KE had voted for me earlier.

[Mr. Flay]

no, KE is somehow convinced that I'm scum...

That's okay, for once I agree with him. I'm pretty sure you're scum, but I *know* Maverick is...

I'd be willing to vote for either of you at this point, but if we resolve the Maverick question, then the cop thing doesn't linger tomorrow, and we can trust the results.

[Mr. Flay]

I agree that the deadline should stick, because otherwise we're going to just go in circles and circles and circles talking...

Maverick, your capacity for generating bull just astounds me. First you say "IS and Flay are insinuating each other might be scum", when I've been saying <u>since Day One</u> that I thought IS was scummy. He's always scummy, so nobody votes for him, but reread if you don't believe me. The only reason I'm not voting for him is your counterclaim, which confirms that he's telling the truth and I'm not scum, so you're lying.

Then you try to say that MoS is voting for me to alleviate suspicion tomorrow, when I (and others) have already established that with the cop alive through tonight, we'll have confirmation or investigation on everyone who is in question in the game, enough to win it outright. It doesn't matter what the scum's "voting record" is today, if they get a lynch on town, they win, if they don't, they're doomed.

[Mr. Flay]

Flay, what happens today is more important than tonight.

For once we agree. But since I know I'm not scum, and we've already established the cop, whoever it is, must be sane, my vote stays on you. Since that makes IS the cop, he'll be able to investigate someone of his choosing tonight (even me).

How is this complicated?

[Mr. Flay]

I do agree that whoever votes first will make the decision because of the deadline guidelines. I'm a little disturbed that nonny is behind the scenes this whole time w/o saying anything, but she did say she hates making decisions.

I'll check in at least once more to answer any questions, but I'm sure you're all tired of hearing me talk.

[Mr. Flay]

*laugh* Wow, I never thought I was going to live the day out, much less "help" win. I kept assuming I'd come back on to see myself lynched and my partners close behind.

We were shoveling sh*t just as fast as we could after Maverick came out as the cop...there really wasn't any logic to go on, it was pure BS. Thanks for a strange, sick little game, all...

[Mr. Flay]

Flay, you had a good statement to say for anything anyone said to you whether true or false, it was always very believable.

Thanks. Considering the number of times I've been scum so far, I ought to be getting good at something by now!