Mafia 87 - New Age Mafia - Game Over!

[Vi]

Confirming in thread that I have received and understood my Role PM and win condition.

[Vi]

According to the wiki, a Weak Doctor dies if he protects scum. Thus, there is a minimum of two killing elements present...

Anyway,

Vote: forbiddanlight

. I believe that at this point the case against her is extremely clear.

[Vi]

Vote: Vi

because who names themselves after a text editor?

Good question; I know I didn't.
(Seriously, Vi-the-editor is before my time.)

[Vi]

How many mafia would we typically have in a game this size?

Just in my experience, setups have about four times as many total players as Mafia (or anti-Town people in general), I think.

1 Mafia -> 4 Players (usually 5)
2 -> 8 (usually 9, like in newbie games)
3 -> 12 (typical Mini)
4 -> 16 (where we're at now)
5 -> 20 (19 is where we started)

I make no promises on whether this is actually relevant, but my guess is that there are a total of five bad people to take out - four now that one of the Goons is gone.

Mostly it was to point out to any doctors who may have defended one of the deceased that they might not be entirely sane. It doesn't require that they role-claim, just that they consider the possibility that they're insane before they go about protecting town.

How do you know that the Docs don't

already

know about their sanity (or whatever you call their variants)? And how would they know who the Townies are in the first place?
And for the life of me, I can't remember what your username is from OTH. Wasn't it the woman who came up with the 1001 Arabian Nights?

[Vi]

Speculating about the setup doesn't seem like it would be a worthwhile move right now simply from the lack of information. We can draw a few likely conclusions from Night 0, but grasping for possibilities without any evidence to substantiate one notion over the other is the definition of Junk Science.

@Juls: I don't think Scheherazade's comment means much. Normally the scum is the group doing the killing, after all - seeing one of the Bad Guys get killed out of the blue is unusual.

Also, I am not convinced that Sche is scum yet. I believe the point of FoS is that you think that something they said is suspicious but aren't completely convinced of their scumminess yet. Is that not correct?

Welcome to Day 1. If you're "convinced" that someone is scum on Page 2 and you're not a Cop, there is something seriously wrong. Moreover, a vote is evidence that you're willing to step out and stake your reputation on someone being scum; that the votee is the person you'd like to see lynched most at the moment (generally synonymous with "most suspicious"). If you believe in what you're saying, take a stand and don't be afraid to be wrong.

Unvote: forbiddanlight

(L-∞)

Vote: Juls

(L-7)

Like so.

[Vi]

Vote: Juls

'Anything else to say on that note?

[Vi]

Must I always state my reasoning behind a vote?

If you don't, we're left to assume that you had no reason and like jumping on bandwagons as opportunistic scum would, etc.

@Gerrendus: The rule on editing is that you can't. Use Edits By Way Of (Another) Post, or EBWOPs.

[Vi]

@TAX: Why "another" random vote? And why not place it on the person you find suspicious? Not that I mind a vote on me, but your motives are sketchy.

----

On the other forum where I play mafia, we usually don't have a random voting stage, but a "talk about the set-up" stage where we try to guess the setup until someone says something scummy and we go from there.

I'm guessing that doesn't take long~

----

Clearly people don't like the use of FoS.

*ka-ching*
FoS is basically getting up on a high horse and saying

I formally accuse you of suspicious activity using

bold

text!

when that should already be apparent from your reason for your FoSing in the first place. In other words, it's overrated, pretentious, and only good for being parodied (i.e. Middle Finger of Suspicion).

----

Re: Scheherazade - It's a pretty clean play to shoot down your own newb card defense. I'll give you points for that.

[Vi]

Jazzmyn

, welcome to the game. Is there anything you'd like to say about what's going on?

DoomCow

, same. Any stance you want to take on the general mess going on right now?

TAX

, you've still got a question to answer when you get back - this is a reminder.

Mod: What is the status on

BobHiggs?

Caboose

- Based on Post 81, who is scummiest (or most deserving of a vote, if they are not the same for some reason)?

Der Hammer

-

have I missed something or is their a reason why insane doctor has even been mentioned yet


Vote:Percy

Isn't this a

non sequitur?

ZazieR

, you ARE in this game, right? If you are not watching this topic, then consider this a psychic poke to get you going

strife220:

And now that you 'caught' me, I'm now your FOURTH suspect?

I think he was mocking you calling him his SECOND suspect.
Anyway, why did you choose that username?

Juls

, how do you pronounce your username? The way I'm doing it, I'm getting flashbacks of Wayside School.

Mod: Why is this game called New Age Mafia?

[Vi]

@TAX: Why "another" random vote? And why not place it on the person you find suspicious? Not that I mind a vote on me, but your motives are sketchy.

I really don't find too many people too suspicious. I do see some that if they do something suspicious again, I will vote for them.

All right, let me clarify. Your motives are--

Unvote: Juls
Vote: TAX

--THIS sketchy.
You don't find "too many" people too suspicious, so you put out another random vote - for what reason; how would that change anything? Meanwhile, you see "some" people you would vote "if they do something suspicious again". Telling us who they are would be nice.

It's okay to be unsure of how to proceed, as people will likely ask you questions if you say so. But it's never okay to put out a façade of activity.

-----

@Caboose: 81 is the new 89. Didn't you read that in the wiki?
"Based on your last post", in other words.

My point was just that the fact that you're newer to the site makes the argument of role fishing a little weaker to me, because you're exactly how I was when I came to this site (and I wasn't scum in my first game, either).

In light of this, who is then scummiest?

-----

@Juls: Ah, I was right. I hope I'm not the only person who knows who Mrs. Jewls is, though <.<;

[Vi]

Scheherazade (

5

) -- strife220, Gerrendus, Juls, Percy, ribwich
With 16 alive, it takes

9

votes to lynch!

I don't see L-4 as a danger zone for a lynch.

Also, would you say your random vote helped find scum this time?

[Vi]

Juls wins 13 Community Service Points. I tried to analyze the Scheherazade vs. Percy mudfest, and gave up somewhere around Page 4. Ultimately I don't think what Scheherazade was doing was necessarily scummy - not pro-Town, but on the condition that S stopped trying to make conspiracies from nothing when I brought it up, not scummy IMO. So unless someone can condense the walls of text accusing S of being worse than advertised into something MUCH more compact, frankly I don't think much of value would be lost in not bothering with them in the first place.

Scheherazade. I can't tell since there hasn't been a vote count in a while, but I don't think you're voting for anyone. Who are you suspicious of?

Der Hammer. Would you care to contribute to the game? It would be a great way to divert your wagon elsewhere - much better than what you've done so far.

-----

Jazzmyn

, welcome to the game. Is there anything you'd like to say about what's going on?

DoomCow

, same. Any stance you want to take on the general mess going on right now?

TAX

,

you've still got a question to answer when you get back - this is a reminder.

same. Any stance you want to take on the general mess going on right now?

Mod: What is the status on

BobHiggs?

strife220:

Anyway, why did you choose that username?

Mod: Why is this game called New Age Mafia?

^^^

[Vi]

I understand that he wouldn't want to say "I vote Juls to put pressure on her" when he cast the vote. But why put pressure on Juls, of all people? He must have had a reason for choosing her. So I think he was being unnecessarily evasive.

So... al4xz is being evasive by not answering questions that were not asked?
In any event, since you've asked the question now and it has been answered, does that change anything?

While I see that ribwich has voted a few people so far, considering the timing of his early changes and the reasons associated with them I disagree that ribwich has been tossing his vote around. This is coming from someone who leisurely spams early on, though, so take it for what it's worth. However, I will ask this--

@ribwich: Why do you suspect Der Hammer more than Scheherazade?

-----

al4xz, aside from S and P, is there anyone you find scummy?

-----

I don't like doing this sometimes, but...

Scheherazade (4) -- Gerrendus, Juls, Percy, al4xz
Der Hammer (4) -- iamausername, ZazieR, ribwich, strife220
TAX (2) -- DoomCow, Vi
al4xz (1) -- Caboose
ribwich (1) -- Jazzmyn
Percy (1) -- Der Hammer
Vi (1) -- TAX

Not Voting (2) -- Scheherazade, BobHiggs

9 to lynch with 16 alive!

[Vi]

al4xz, I just want to make sure I understand your reasoning. Are you suspicious of Percy because you believe the distancing between him and Schez is artificial? If yes, does this mean you would no longer be suspicious of Percy if Schez was confirmed to be town?

Yes and no. It depends on what other knowledge I have. If I know the possibility of a Mafia GF exists, I will not rule that out, despite the unlikelyhood of the situation. If I know there is possibly a GF, and Schez is cleared by a confirmed Cop, then I will trust Percy to a higher extent than that of right now.

Using the G-word at this point in the game makes me much more suspicious of al4xz

I'm not sure how that's really logical...

Your stance? No, it's not logical.
I already told Scheherazade not to make wild guesses about the setup, and here you are creating your own conspiracy theory

right down to calling out Scheherazade as the zetta Godfather

.
I think it should be pretty obvious that it is *possible* for there to be a Godfather in the setup if there are less-standard roles like Weak Doctor. Is there actually a Godfather? Iunno; how do you propose we find out?

So wrong on a couple of different levels.

Unvote: TAX
Vote: al4xz

(L-7)

@Jazzmyn. 'Care to provide more than a high-level description of what we already know?

The name of the game has little actual relevance, but it sounds cool doesn't it?

Actually, yes

[Vi]

@al4xz: You misunderstand. You called out S as the Godfather, which is basically impossible to prove (without a lynch on either a Godfather or Scheherazade) and hideously biased.

Within the same post Vi brings up that she had previously warned someone away from rolefishing and the setup and then asks as to how al4xz proposes we find out if there is a godfather?

It was a rhetorical question - you

can't

find out if there's a Godfather until you lynch it. That's the point.

I think you basically made the case for me, so you can have some popcorn. *hands the bag over*

Not helping your standing IMO.

[Vi]

@al4xz: You misunderstand. You called out S as the Godfather, which is basically impossible to prove (without a lynch on either a Godfather or Scheherazade) and hideously biased.

No, I called S out as a possible Godfather

in that situation

. In no way does it reflect this game so far unless we reach a point akin to that one. And even if one Godfather was lynched, there can always be two - one for each team...why the fuck am I saying this? YOu'll call it out as rolefishing again, even though it's only Mafia-related roles and a cop, which is a normal role anyhow.

ROLEFISHING ROLEFISHING OMGOBVSCUMRAWR

weeEEEEEEEEEOOOOOooooo

...kidding. Besides, "rolefishing" is someone else's buzzword; mine is "baseless hypotheticals" or something to that extent.

~~~

...Let's try this again from the beginning, for clarity's sake. Could you fully answer the question, but in different words?

Are you suspicious of Percy because you believe the distancing between him and Schez is artificial? If yes, does this mean you would no longer be suspicious of Percy if Schez was confirmed to be town?

[Vi]

ROLEFISHING ROLEFISHING OMGOBVSCUMRAWR

weeEEEEEEEEEOOOOOooooo

Would you mind if I used that for a signature? That is probably the best thing I've read on this site.

Talk is cheap; in fact my words are free!

Also, where's iamausername?

[Vi]

Vi, I do find in kinda scummy that al4xz is talking about the set up, but I think you might be over reacting a little to it.

...probably. :v

-----

It wouldnt surprise me to see the three town, and you mafia knowing that we are the targets for a quick easy lynch.

(Maybe if you made yourself something other than an easy lynch...)

-----

I'll play along with strife--

Der Hammer: Is uselessness scummy? 'Not sure. Is policy lynching people who are quite unlikely to help the Town good on first days in huge games? Much more likely. I'll give him one post to give me a good reason not to vote him before it happens.

Scheherazade: Do I really have to read all that? I would much rather Scheherazade try attacking rather than defending. Voting would be a good start. I'm not thrilled with this as an excuse--

You can accuse me of giving responsibility for content to other people, but, as you can see, I'm having trouble communicating with this group as a whole.

al4xz: I really don't see this going anywhere. The major reason I'm not unvoting is personal policy to keep votes on people D1 :v

[Vi]

Slayer's Gambit, one of my favorite devices. (Unfortunately, nobody seems to notice when I vote people who aren't playing...)

Unlike Juls, I think the answers sync well enough, but I take issue with this--

I decide to join in but with a no reasoning vote so that I would appear scummy. In this way, if Juls was a scum, she might attempted to direct attention to me since I voted w/o reasoning behind it in that post.

So it's scummy to vote for people who place scummy votes on you? IMO OMGUS is about as laughable as FoS as a catch-all.

What would a pro-Town reaction have been in your opinion, considering you were acting anti-Town?

[Vi]

Scheherazade: Do I really have to read all that? I would much rather Scheherazade try attacking rather than defending. Voting would be a good start. I'm not thrilled with this as an excuse--

You can accuse me of giving responsibility for content to other people, but, as you can see, I'm having trouble communicating with this group as a whole.

------

I'll start with the first paragraph. No, that's not what I'm tyring to convey. I'm trying to get some kind of reaction so I can get a read out of it. Does it matter how I word it? Never mind, don't answer that, that's a dumass question. =.=

Actually, Vi, I was just looking for a general reaction to get a read.

I know what Slayer's Gambit is meant to do. But you were just looking to get "a general reaction" out of Juls? That's... kind of weak :v
Like, was there anything you were expecting to see, or would have considered scummy?

[Vi]

I would much rather Scheherazade try attacking rather than defending. Voting would be a good start.

This would help the game go faster more.

[Vi]

I'm hesitating on placing a vote partly because that's my style, to wait until I have a reasonably solid case or until my vote will pressure a player into a defence,

And how is your reasonably solid case or pressure voting coming? Playstyle or no, you shouldn't spend the entire game playing hedgehog.

and partly because most of the people who actively post here have voted for me. I wanted to wait until I was cleared so that any case I brought could avoid the automatic "OMGUS" shoot down.

Don't look now, but I don't think you're going to be cleared for a while. I think I just got done expressing my opinion of OMGUS, anyway.

I thought the real point of her post was to encourage me to change my play style.

Nyeh, not really. I want you to post more stuff that ISN'T related to the giant clusterfrick that you've been tangled up in. And to that end, my patience is waning quickly.

[Vi]

I admit I forgot the deadline too...

We need to force someone to claim before deadline hits so we can let that influence our decision.

Call me a newb, but a claim specifically? If we get, say, a Doc claim at deadline, wouldn't that be a bad thing

and

cause a quicklynch of someone else?

--------

The primary method of catching scum without relying on a role-given ability is to analyze wagons and votes. D1 features a small sample size, so it's pretty unlikely that you can use vote analysis effectively. However, it would still be beneficial to lynch someone, because it provides a serious wagon to look at and criticize later. No Lynch, the equivalent of not knowing who to vote for, keeps someone alive longer but also keeps the Town in the dark for a D2 that will look very similar to D1. Why? Because there are still no wagons that actually went to completion; there is still nobody who can take responsibility for a lynch.

--------

Scheherazade. Don't post here again without a vote for someone and a half-decent reason to back it up. ZazieR has requested this, I've requested it a few times, strife has pointed it out, etc. I don't care about your playstyle; make a decision.

Percy. All of your posts today have been against Scheherazade exclusively. 'Care to change the subject for a post or two?

Gerrendus. I like Post #6, but otherwise, same as Percy. Could you give names of others you want to look at?

[Vi]

Alright, so now I see why you guys wish to lynch someone no matter what. We need the information, so at least SOMEONE has to die. Correct?

Right. BTW, the exception to this is when it is known that a very significant number of the people alive have investigative roles (Dethy, for instance).
How you choose who you vote for - and everyone

should

be voting at deadline, if not throughout D1 - is up to you, but remember that you will assume responsibility for your decision no matter what.

Mod: Please probe the following

O.O;

[Vi]

I am stopping this conversation

right now

.

[Vi]

Awesome, a choice between useless and more useless. I don't have enough information on Der Hammer to be convinced he is scum, but at the rate he's going all he's going to do is drag us down. I am more willing to say that Scheherazade is Town and bad at arguing than to say that Der Hammer is a contributory Townie.

I'm still waiting for Scheherazade to actually vote, scumhunt, etc. like everyone wants him to, but the minimal amount he has done up to this point is enough to put him ahead of Der Hammer.

Unvote: al4xz
Vote: Der Hammer

(L-2)

Interesting to see no vote from Sche on DH. I thought he voted for him, but must have just been an FoS. That or I am pretending to see things that do not exist.

'Vivid imagination you've got there
Scheherazade isn't voting for anyone, which is P.ing several people O.

[Vi]

Village idiot: Abbreviation: Vi! o.O

Suffice to say I've already tried to daykill one person for that (elsewhere; don't want to link because it's an ongoing game). Would you like to be next? ^.^

[Vi]

@Vi: Why has my not casting a vote upset you?

I thought it's been pretty clear who I've suspected over the course of the game. I asked questions when I needed to. Some have been answered and some haven't. I think Jazzmyn's pretty scummy and I stand behind that. I've suspected Der Hammer's play, which seems wilfully unproductive. I suspected al4xz and ribwich, but al4xz's responses made me reconsider and my reread of ribwich changed my mind.

Why do you want me to go ahead and vote? To hurry the lynch? To give you something to read? What is it?

No, it hasn't been clear, because almost all of your posts have been defensive. Posts 15 and 21 are the only ones where you've actually acted on your own suspicions and asked questions. And you've only barely mentioned Der Hammer once before now, in passing.

Your sarcastic questions at the end make me want to post SHUT UP in really large letters. I'll give you reasons. You think Jazzmyn's scummy? Really? I don't believe it, because you're not

VOTING

to stake your bloody

REPUTATION

on it. Clearly you don't

really

believe Jazzmyn is scummy or even the best choice IYO for a lynch, because you're not willing to put her one - single - step

out of 9

to the noose.

Take a stand in what you believe in,

instead of wallflowering until it's convenient to vote.

Incidentally, Jazzmyn made a decent-sized post since you last expressed suspicion of her. 'Thoughts on it?

(Jeesh, forbiddanlight is rubbing off on me.)

[Vi]

Forgive me for hopping on a soapbox at a time like this, but the point of voting for someone is to declare that you want them lynched more than anyone else at the time. Votes cause lynches, simply put.

So with that in mind... al4xz, why is it so bad that Der Hammer was der-hammered?

@TAX: 'Nice of you to show up just after the hammer gets dropped after a week of absence~

[Vi]

So aside from the excuses and backstory, I just want to get this for the record, Gerrendus - you're satisfied with this outcome?

[Vi]

Uh... What the heck is a Grave Digger supposed to be?

[Vi]

Posting before prod.

I will not be here tomorrow, but should have a reread done sometime on Sunday. As far as today goes, I would like for al4xz to post again before I begin discussing the end of the day.

[Vi]

Right...

First, the lurker list. I started by trying to remember what they had done in this game, and failing.
*Juls
*iamausername
*Caboose
*DoomCow
*TAX

So rereading their posts...

Juls: Until Der Hammer came up being himself at the end of the Day, Juls seemed to mostly coast by. Puta Puta, you're replacing Juls. Based on your first post in this game, I'm not interested in that continuing.

iamausername: You voted for Der Hammer early yesterday, but disappeared for a while. What's your opinion of the Der Hammer wagon?

Caboose: Why did it take you so long to vote Scheherazade yesterday?

**In fact, a general question toward everyone who was on the Scheherazade wagon - do you still find him suspicious?

DoomCow: You're barely skimming by activity-wise, and your content is disappointing at best. I'm looking forward to content in general.

TAX: You are not scumhunting. At all. Please rectify this situation immediately.

--------------

About al4xz and Gerrendus...

al4xz, yesterday you said that if Scheherazade was confirmed Town, you would not be suspicious of Percy. Does it work the other way around, since Percy is gone?
I'm actually very interested in hearing your opinion on Scheherazade right now, considering your last three votes yesterday.

A quick opinion on Mafia theory, though--I wouldn't hold the pre-claim hammer against you personally. Claims are meant to be last-ditch defenses, not obligatory rights. Considering Der Hammer was in quite a bit of trouble before he was placed at exactly L-1, didn't seem interested in helping the Town, and

had already claimed Vanilla

; I don't think it's an Unforgivable Sin that the claim didn't happen. Meanwhile, if Der Hammer claimed a non-VT role, would you believe him? Would it have been enough to stop your vote?
The only real loss IMO would have been from hitting a Cop before displaying N0 results, and once again I'd expect he'd have done that noticeably sooner under the circumstances. As far as Der Hammer's opinions went, I'll note that just because someone is confirmed Town doesn't mean they're right; to demonstrate the point I'll point to how Der Hammer suspected strife.

Gerrendus: And how is Scheherazade? You flipped to Der Hammer Der Hammer, but even then you noted that you thought Scheherazade was scummier. IMO, you should always pick the person you find scummier (if you can make the decision) over a policy lynch.

-----

Scheherazade: I'm --still-- waiting for you to place a vote. Yesterday, you were leaning against Jazzmyn; is this still accurate?

-----
@@
-----

I'll wait until the responses come in before placing a vote. Large games mean there are several places attention should go, and I've only one vote.

[Vi]

I might not have been posting a lot, but I was following closely enough to move my vote if I felt there was a need. Since I didn't move my vote, clearly I didn't have a problem with the wagon.

So you were lurking...?

I don't get your question or why you're asking it. I usually like to see people's responses to my points on them before I vote them.

I think you "got" my question since you gave an okay answer to it, and you were asked it because you were in the list of people from a few posts ago - plus I don't have a read on you. It seemed odd that you voted Scheherazade in the midst of a prolonged dialogue, since I didn't clarify.
Better question: What's your opinion of the DH wagon?

There are still several leads out, and I'm still not sure which one to follow with a vote (thought al4xz is about to be the subject of a reread). Not helping things is the silence from Scheherazade's corner.

@mod: Prod Scheherazade if permitted

[Vi]

I might not have been posting a lot, but I was following closely enough to move my vote if I felt there was a need. Since I didn't move my vote, clearly I didn't have a problem with the wagon.

So you were lurking...?

Oh, most definitely.

...uh... How's it going? The lurking, I mean. ^^;

(How am I supposed to respond to that!?)

-----

"O conspiracy!
Sham'st thou to show thy dangerous brow by night,
When evils are most free?"

:janetweiss:

-----

DoomCow: Waiting, etc.

-----

The scum always think about their vote before they make it so that they can't be pushed around about it. The town

should

always think about their vote before they make it, but sometimes they don't think too closely enough.

I'm not sure I like what you're doing here, between the dealing in generalities to the use of the mistake to paint yourself Town.
(Actually, I'm quite sure I don't like what you're doing there.)

I'd like an answer to that question

[why nobody started by voting for Scheherazade]

as well, though I suspect I know the answer.

?

[post-reread]

The flip-unflip-reflip back and forth at the end of yesterday really bites IMO, especially considering Posts 228 and 271 seem to contradict. I'm still not pleased with the argument temporarily immortalized in ribwich's sig. The Slayer's Gambit and the ensuing griping made up a sizeable part of your activity yesterday, though to all appearances it wouldn't have had any effect on your opinions IYO. And unless I'm not seeing something (it's getting late), you haven't mentioned any suspicions for today either... Where's the scumhunting?

So, I guess all I can do is sit here and twiddle my thumbs and go, "OMGHDUNLYNCHMEIAMTOWN!" when someone tries to vote for me. =.=

I have no idea what this quote means ;>.>

I think my choice of action is clear, at least for now.

Vote: al4xz

(L-3)

'Should look at Jazzmyn vs. Scheherazade next.

[Vi]

Posting before prod.
I just got back in, and with seven games to deal with I'll need a little time to reread things and make decisions.

Two quick answers before I go off to check all the other weekend walls I missed--

@iamausername: I'm cool with that. What are you doing with all the free time you have, since you're not spending it posting?

@al4xz: Er, :janetweiss: can be interpreted a bunch of different ways, at least one of which I hadn't thought of <.<
I was referring to the stupid look she gives Dr. Frank N. Furter as he says "I see you shiver with antici-------------"

...I feel dirty just for referencing that movie.

[Vi]

@Puta Puta: Seriously. Contribute.

@DoomCow: *continues watching*

My English grammar better ?!

HERE SPEECHING AMERICAN
If I hadn't read about it earlier, I wouldn't have guessed English wasn't your primary language, tbqh.

I still like my vote. The nice-guy treatment is, well, nice, but it seems like you're admitting to what's going wrong. Meanwhile, you're still not scumhunting, which I learned the hard way is a solid scumtell (yes oh yes I like single-handedly losing games for Town by overlooking obvious things).

Having looked at Jazzmyn vs. Scheherazade (all the while lamenting that there is no Dramamine on hand), I will for the moment lean toward Scheherazade's side. However, I do not think either of them are the best lynch considering al4xz.

[Vi]

@iamausername: I'm cool with that. What are you doing with all the free time you have, since you're not spending it posting?

Been playing a lot of Guitar Hero lately. \m/

al4xz is at L-2. He should probably claim.

Nya, I'm horrible at GH/RB. I'm glad I can save face by playing a clarinet well ;>.>
Also, what kind of emote is \m/?

I'm told that claims are supposed to be last-resortish defenses. Should al4xz claim when he's still just at L-2? (To answer the obvious following question, I'm fairly confident there will be no "accidental" "hammers" this time around~)

@mod: Where is Percy?

[Vi]

It's the devil-horns hand sign thing. The slashes are the index and pinky fingers, the m is the middle and ring fingers.

RAWK. \m/

oic
Forgive my uncoolness >.>

-----

Hi Percy. *personality shift* Your logic is horrible.

First, and not just @you. Unless you happen to be psychic, NK analysis is

always

WIFOM, and much more often than not nobody correctly guesses why people are killed (as revealed after the game). To that end, I think DoomCow, Gerrendus, and you are all fishing for reasons to hate Scheherazade.

Second. Simply put, it looks like your case on al4xz only exists to give you a springboard to hate Scheherazade more.

Overall, I think that al4xz is making a lot of 'mistakes' and 'bad plays' that seem to benefit the scum,

and happen to protect Scheherazade at the same time.

Aside from the voteflipping at the end of D1, I don't immediately remember anything like this. Elaborate.

Third.

but the point is this - I don't think anyone could be so squeaky clean as to give

Percy

absolutely no grounds to push harder. I feel like he's just randomly picked someone and is determined to find

her

him guilty. Frankly, he's wasting our time with this over-examination, and no-one is convinced.

Tu quoque

makes for easy justifying edits.
I'm not about to argue that Scheherazade is squeaky or anything, but it's pretty obvious that you have major confirmation bias. Or you can overturn that opinion by answering this - What can Scheherazade do to make himself look better IYO?

tl;dr I think that the arguments being leveled against the Scheherazade/al4xz pairing can be flipped back onto Gerrendus/DoomCow/Percy. Percy is an iffy case because he may have switched Win Conditions upon replacing in.

[Vi]

2. I don't want to end the day before the town has had a look at more players. I feel that some players have posted enough to give me a comfortable indication of their alignments either way.

Such as? Are you going to pressure them?

This post (399) is pretty perceivable as diversion. Suddenly I'm a bit more interested in this Sche/al4xz pairing.

-----

I think Jazzmyn's scummy for not scum-hunting, voting on emotion, allowing someone she didn't suspect to be lynched, agreeing often with others but not adding much content, and avoiding questioning.

Not scum-hunting - Perhaps. I would like to hear Jazzmyn talk about the other players a bit.
Voting on emotion - I hope you're not talking about that random vote on ribwich, because that's all that applies.
Allowing someone she didn't suspect to be lynched - 'Looks pretty false to me. Jazzmyn was voting for YOU D1, as were something like six other people. You could apply that argument to everyone not voting or voting for you.
Agreement without content - You could say something more along the lines of Jazzmyn only targeting people who are already being talked about. But I'll wait one more post before deciding here.
Avoiding questioning - Again, I'll wait one more post before deciding here.

[Vi]

It's time for an al4xz claim.

Vote:al4xz

...I hope to all that is holy that you have a good reason for this and you're just toying with us. You've got one post.

[Vi]

Puta Puta is not wrong. It is time for an al4xz claim.

I would argue that Puta Puta is not right, but about something different.

A reaction to the PP vote would be nice.

[Vi]

?
Without asking directly about an ongoing game, what is your meta on Puta Puta, Z?

[Vi]

I know I don't like question marks personally, but--

Not scum-hunting - Perhaps.

I would like to hear Jazzmyn talk about the other players a bit.

You missed what I was waiting for in the first place.

[Vi]

Posting before prod. I've been falling behind in my games recently, sorry...

I've been trying to think of possible pro-Town motivations for what Puta Puta is doing. I can't think of any. I'm trying to see how al4xz could be scummier than Puta Puta at this point. About the only thing I can think of is that al4xz played like he knew what he was doing, whereas P. P. seems to be acting scummily for the sake of it - if that can even be a point against al4xz. Now I'm trying to see how Der Hammer could have been scummier than Puta Puta at this point. Der Hammer was incompetent, true, but he was at least trying to help. Last, I think I see a dynamic between al4xz and Juls in the Slayer's Gambit incident earlier on.

Thus I'm not really sure why Puta Puta

shouldn't

be lynched, frankly.

Unvote: al4xz
Vote: Puta Puta

(L-3)

------

Yup, it is a diversion. I don't like the town swinging from lynch to lynch as if they're monkey bars. I'd prefer to sort everybody out a bit before we charge towards another lynch. If that means admitting that I don't want to see someone scummy lynched before TAX (now Percy), DoomCow, iamausername and PutaPuta post more and are scrutinized, then I'll say it.

In light of the deadline (this Saturday), is this still your opinion?

No, her vote post on day one says "I don't like his attitude" not "I think he's scummy for X, Y and Z." In fact, the original infraction considered scummy by others on the wagon she said didn't look particularly scummy to her.

Post 179, correct?
That vote was *influenced* by emotion, but I think it would be incorrect to say that's entirely why you were voted.

I'd like to hear what YOU think of Puta Puta. (Considering I don't know what that means in whatever foreign language that is, I probably should reword that.)

[Vi]

Apologies for not being here enough. I've signed up for too many games, and I'm falling behind in most/all of them.

---

Welcome, armlx. Now LHIOB

Vi's abandoning of mention of TAX after the vote is noted. Especially given the extent of asking about other players.

Um, I mentioned him up until my al4xz vote, lumping him with DoomCow as someone who very much needed to show up and put their stance on the table (141). But considering that my vote on TAX was for pressure but only mild suspicion, I didn't give it much weight. I tried to pursue him, but the conversation that followed felt pointless and I dropped it.
Talking of DoomCow, where IS he, anyway?

Vi makes a comment about standing up for points on page 11. Ironic. Then late on the DH wagon too.

Yes, I was late on the Der Hammer wagon. I didn't realize the deadline was looming, and made a decision on which wagon to endorse the same RL day someone mentioned it.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean about the "ironic" comment.

---

I am not a Mason with Puta Puta. Nor am I really willing to believe the Mason claim in the first place given--

lol i'm warning you all you don't want me dead.

Incidentally, I believe Puta Puta is or will shortly be lynched by deadline rules (at least half the required number of people is voting for him).

---

@Gerrendus: I think I've heard of a role similar to "sympathetic" somewhere in the wiki, but IMHO it's a retarded idea and the person who gets the role should be lynched anyway, shortly followed by the moderator. So even then, I wouldn't be against this lynch.

[Vi]

The body count in this game is massive o.0 Sorry for being slow to return; two other games have me... involved, so to speak.

I think between the Puta Puta scumflip and the three Townflips, everyone got proven wrong about someone. The question of the day is thus who got foiled more than embarrassed...

I'll play PbPA.

Vi

~ Miaow~

iamausername

~ If it hasn't yet been made obvious, you are ringing up as Weird to me just as far as your gameplay has gone. You jumped on Der Hammer early and faded out, went for al4xz early on and then made a late jump onto Puta Puta (how about I shorten that to Gimbo from now on) after initially agreeing with him and trying to continue with the al4xz lynch. That last part is what solidifies my suspicion. I like your contribution today though.

Tom Mason

~ Did not vote for either Scheherazade or Der Hammer D1 because he was catching up, which is a positive point IMO. Pushes forward with al4xz for agreeable reasons. The jump to Gimbo was somewhat on the resigned side, but I don't think I could label it scummy. Erratically signs his name to some of his posts, but not all of them (obvscumtell).

DoomCow

~ I'm torn between calling you useless or anti-Town... or both. I notice you were on the two big wagons very late, and while I would be more understanding if you said you were not around for the Gimbo fiasco you've already said that you were there, but didn't want to hammer (or more plainly, you were lurking). I have a meta on you (ongoing game), but it's not helping much. I don't see the hindsight on Juls as incredibly enlightening, personally.

Jazzmyn

~ As far as factuality goes, I think Scheherazade was a bit on the losing end in arguing with you. As far as attitude goes, I think otherwise. You did not wish to vote Gimbo for his meta in another game, it seems... which is almost a null-tell, except--

I realize that it might just be his way of trying to establish a mechanism for avoiding being lynched

when he

[Puta Puta]

is scum in other games

, of course, but for what it's worth, there it is.

THIS needs explaining.
Another quote that jumps out at me--

If I were scum, I would have voted for DerHammer somewhere around the middle of the pack and been quite happy with a town lynch, any town lynch.

There's a glaringly obvious problem with this statement. If you need a hint, look at posts 179 and 183.

ribwich

~ Is immediately barred from suspicion because he has

me

in his sig~
But seriously. At least as of now, I don't think I have anything either way on you. Leaning townside because you seemed rather reasonable about al4xz.

Gerrendus

~ I think you already have some idea of what I've to say here. You hammered Der Hammer as a policy lynch while constantly saying you believed Scheherazade was scum. You voted Scheherazade 429 on grounds of not being succinct (?!), and in 434 seem to insinuate that the thrust of your argument is the succinctness point (!?!); while in that same post hitting Scheherazade about diverting from the lynch of someone he implies deserves a lynch. This in itself is odd, because you said that you couldn't find where Scheherazade expressed suspicion of al4xz "in the mountains of posts", but we had to ask you where you ever mentioned al4xz; and reading them you don't express any strong suspicion of him at all. And at the end, you seem to argue against (or at least excuse) the Gimbo lynch. Yep, #1 suspect.

Caboose

~ As I've mentioned before, the timing of your Scheherazade vote strikes me - it seems to come after a weak point. Other than that, the only thing that strikes me is that you don't seem to have said as much as the other players (barring teh cow of doom).

ZazieR

~ Another player where the lengths of time between posts bother me. On the surface, though, I don't see a lot to comment on. I'm willing to believe that you have a meta on Gimbo, but trying to call him

confirmed

makes me wonder.

Top

Gerrendus
iamausername
Jazzmyn

Mid

DoomCow
Caboose
ZazieR

Bottom

ribwich
Tom Mason

I see Gerrendus is quickly gaining a wagon, of which I approve right now. But I'd like to hear him respond to me before I decide whether to join it.

Everyone who has not laid out suspect(s) for today yet should, frankly. Still to go: DoomCow, Cabüse, ribwich, Jazzmyn, Gerrendus (sorta), and ZazieR.

------------

Happy Innovative Interactive Response Time!

I didn't address Puta Puta's L-1 Vote (Here I mean his placing al4xz at L-1) because it didn't seem necessary. Everyone was aware that al4xz was at L-1, and no one was willing to vote for him until we could hear from him.

Do you... even care why people vote for others?
I see your defense of this later, but I don't buy it. Only paying attention to large wagons seems like a scum mindset.

I made the statement merely that we had needed to be careful. Although I doubted it, I was willing to give his mason claim the benefit of the doubt and not hammer until his alleged mason partner had time to claim as such. Had I pushed further for a lynch (which at the point he was: L-1, all I could do was vote and then hammer) I would have been denying that benefit of the doubt.

I thought you said that Gimbo could have been a sympathetic? Doesn't that counter the Mason claim? See also DoomCow's question.

Jazz was on the defensive from sche all yesterday, and had pushed for his death the previous two days. Granted I also did but she was his main target. It's possible she felt threatened, though as has been previously stated analysis based on night actions quickly and easily falls into the realm of WIFOM.

It's absolutely WIFOM. Do you have any other suspects?

it seemed more likely that Puta was a symp than a full partner, still a necesary lynch but an observation to be made. I also wasn't about to make the same mistake and be hammered for being the person to hammer twice in a row, I had checked vote counts etc this time in reaction to my mistake the previous day.

In the immortal words of JDodge--WIMP
You just said that Gimbo was a necessary lynch. Your reason for not hammering sounds like self-preservation; I at least would have been much more understanding if you had clarified that you were NOT accidentally hammering and thought you had hit scum/a necessary lynch this time (both of these would be improvements over D1).

As for me not voting Puta Puta, by the time I read her posts, she was already at L-1.

I wasn't willing to hammer after the claim.

Why? Masons aren't that big a deal tbqh, and if it were true the other Mason would have had good reason to claim ASAP - if they were even confirmed at all. If they weren't confirmed, then the claim is essentially worthless.

Why aren't you in more of my games, Vi?

You should probably be glad for it; a bunch of my games have wound up being modless train wrecks. (Praise be to Incog-Co-Mod!)
But hay, after this game we can IC together or something.

And after Night Two, coincidentally two people he put in his targets were eliminated.

Again, NK WIFOM. I wouldn't accept this as an argument against Gerrendus.

[Vi]

Also @Jazzmyn: I don't know what exactly I can do over the Internet other than offer my best wishes, but consider them yours.

[Vi]

Tom Mason

~ Erratically signs his name to some of his posts, but not all of them (obvscumtell).

Heh. Can you tell I write e-mails and memos all day long at work?

You don't use a signature (that is, a text block like what we have here) with your e-mails? It just seems easier.
Also, what do you do for a living? Out of curiosity.

[Vi]

I work for a university on-campus student housing department.

Oh, I can only imagine the hate mail that must come in~
*has never been very friendly with Housing/Residence Life*

Good luck with your interview in advance!

[Vi]

I'm confused as to what you find so problematic in this quote, Vi.

:v

I realize that it might just be his way of trying to establish a mechanism for avoiding being lynched

when he [Puta Puta] is scum in other games

, of course, but for what it's worth, there it is.

The reference to other games looks like a slip saying either:
*It doesn't apply to this game (paraphrase: for it to work when Gimbo is scum, he has to do it in games when he's Townie like this one)
*It does apply to this game, but obviously isn't working as a defense job this time.
Either way, it seems to hint at foreknowledge of Puta Puta's alignment. Jazzmyn has some explaining to do when she gets back.

-----

The Mafia gods are punishing you joining the wrong games (the right games are the games that I am in. Obviously.) I just looked at your records, and I am astonished by how many abandoned games you've managed to be in, I really didn't think they were very common at all on this site.

Two Newbies and a Mini Normal; I guess if any games are going to crash it would be those. @mod: Is this accurate?

Hell yes. Let's teach some noobs to throw their vote around with reckless abandon and never, ever FoS.

Should we request a mod?

-----

Hmmm... Seems like I have a few postzillas to read.

Up from the depths/Thirty stories high
Breathing fire/Its head in the sky
Postzilla!
Postzilla!
Postzilla!
And Postzoooookiiiiiiiiie!

IMO you're one of the dark horses in this game (with ZazieR), so I'm looking forward to seeing your stances.

Also, ribwich is wanted.

[Vi]

Oh, and one more thing.

Vi, I think your avatar is the strangest thing I've ever seen.

Have some context.

What's this mean?

:v is an all-purpose emote.
It means what you think it means.

And the point of this sentence was...

This is my first Large game, and certainly the first one where multiple people die each night. I was surprised to see that we were down to less than half our original cast on D3 after starting with 19 people.

Besides the terrible grammar , this sentence doesn't really have an obvious point to me, either. Please enlighten me, Vi.

Terrible grammar? It's not that bad. Also, it's against my interpretation of Buddhism for me to be able to grant you Nirvana.
However, here's an explanation. Each of the people who died flipped something counter to what at least one of the living players expected (barring Percy II, who had armlx going against him for what it's worth). Thus, if there's any time to snag scum red-handed, it's now.

'Still waiting for the rest of what you have to say, although I hope it's more substantial than what I answered here.

----

@DoomCow: Who is scum?

[Vi]

You don't have to browbeat me, Vi.

Apparently I do, since you still haven't given your suspicions outside of a narrow look at iamausername.

I'm thinking about the numbers (6:2:1 definitely seems most likely) and wondering if today is the day for massclaim. If it's not, I think tomorrow certainly will be. What does everyone else think?

Given the large number of kills and the high numbers of vanillas/Milleresques that have flipped, it would be better to wait until tomorrow. Outing power roles now would be similar to sending the scum a hit list with a love note.

----

Please, show me where I argued against the PP lynch, as I have previously stated I was willing to allow time for the possibility of him turning up innocent.

Stalling at the deadline -is- effectively arguing against the lynch. Further... how would you know he was innocent? As I said, Masons are not worth very much and can't really be confirmed until a partner shows up... and one dies. Unless there's something I'm missing; I've never played with confirmed Masons before but that's how I see the logic.

Had PP turned up innocent and as a Mason I would undoubtedly be facing the same charge for "hammering without allowing them to comment" as I have been facing for my screw up on day one.

Doubtful. Understand that the obvious question was

why Gimbo wouldn't tell who his partner was

. That's information he COULD have given, but chose not to. Moreover, even if he did turn up Mason, that would mean there would be someone who could claim to be his Mason partner the next day, and thus confirmed... or counterclaimed. No, there was good reason to hammer.

I notice the stuff about voting Scheherazade has gone unanswered.~

I was not overly suspcious of al4xz as I have said before. However, he had gained enough support to be at L-1, (all but 1 well reasoned votes), and so I was prepared to admit that I had overlooked something and I wanted to hear from him.

All right, I can see where you said an abridged version of this. Unfortunately, without seeing the full version I could not have gotten what you just said from (paraphrasing 398) "btw al4xz is at L-2, he should talk now".

Yes I do care why people vote for others. I consider the arguments made by everyone, rather than simply parroting the questions others have already parroted (honestly by now I feel like I'm answering the same questions 5 times). I am aware of the smaller wagons but I only feel the need to comment on the larger wagons.

Then either your playstyle is naff or your alignment is. You can look at people who are attracting attention and ask them questions OTHER than those that have already been asked. Saying that you only feel the need to comment on larger wagons sounds like a good way to cap lynches while not actually dealing much with them until it's convenient (as you can bicker with Scheherazade in the meantime).

I said it was a possibility, by no means concrete, and read my earlier defense (within this post) regarding the mason claim.

And I've already noted why the outcome should have been the same.
"DoomCow's question" was the one that I asked DoomCow in the post you quoted from me; sorry for not being clear.

I will need to do a reread when I have time, as it is most of my time has been consumed by defending myself from the same accusation put forth in a number of different ways.

>_>
There might be a more efficient way to answer similar questions than answering each iteration of them. As it is,

anything

(OTH reads and such) is better than nothing.

I'm not satisfied.

Vote: Gerrendus

[Vi]

I was saying that although I knew him to be a grossly anti-town townie in that game, I could see the possibility that he played that way in that game in order to set himself up for a pass in other games in which he is scum (that is, in games other than the one in which he was a grossly anti-town townie who self-hammered)

That looks like it makes sense. 'Coulda been worded better, but it's not as bad as it first seemed.

But, it ignores the most important point, which is that if I was scum, I would have been happy with any town lynch at all,

'Not sure how this changes anything.

and it ignores the glaringly obvious point that, if I was scum, I would most certainly not have pointed out where I would vote on any given bandwagon, especially if I had, in fact, voted for someone in roughly the same area of a given bandwagon.

Or

WOULD

you?

It's quite plausible for you to have said it without anyone (yourself included) remembering or checking when you voted, and saying it's something you wouldn't have done it as scum is just casting WIFOM on it.

I was born at night, yes, but it wasn't

last

night.

I'm going to have to debate the truth of this statement *shot repeatedly*

----

Where is ZazieR? Where is... everyone, actually? If OGML is still up to his two-week deadlines, we've only got five-ish days left.

@mod: I'm on the Vote Count twice. Also, please spam prods/replacements.

[Vi]

OhGodMyMorning. I'm a little disappointed with how I did on one part, but at least I don't have to take the GREs again.

OTH, with the large number of VTs/GDs down, there's a high chance of scum hitting power roles tonight even without them having claimed, since for balance reasons, there's got to be a high ratio of power to non-power amongst the remaining townies (Or less scum than I thought, I guess). And if they're going to die anyway, it would be better if they shared any info they've got before doing so.

I'm neither wild nor crazy about setup theory, but there's a difference between "high chance of scum hitting power roles" and "100% chance of scum hitting power roles". I guess I can understand your point of view though, at least with info roles, but I still don't like the idea of a massclaim in light of the killing-spree nights we're having.

The lack of talk (and votes) ITT is really getting depressing...

[Vi]

And what of iamausername? You mentioned him more than DoomCow in your post

I find this thread's lack of ZazieR disturbing. Not to mention up to half of the other players.
It's already late Thursday; we don't have this kind of time to stall.

@mod: Halp

[Vi]

...Sadly, looking through Puta Puta's posts outside this game I think we actually came out ahead with him replacing late, posting seldom and dying quickly - especially as Mafia. So I agree with the above post that an excuse could be made for people who knew his meta.

With that said, I'm not sure if it changes the circumstances of pressing the al4xz lynch at that time, considering I know

I

wouldn't place a serious hammer vote on someone after that kind of L-1 vote.

-----

*I dislike DoomCow's jump on the wagon; placing someone at L-1 with incomplete information and promising to reread at/after the stated deadline are two red flags I really hate to see.
*Gerrendus likely will not claim for a while given that he said he's out of town.
*ZazieR needs to exist ITT, thus I advocate the deadline extension.

As bad as this looks on Gerrendus, DoomCow wasn't there at all, unless I missed a post of his in there (and since I have a sinus headache right now, that's a possibility), which makes him just as, or maybe even more suspicious than Gerrendus (unless DC was V/LA at the time, which could be true).

As for me not voting Puta Puta, by the time I read her posts, she was already at L-1. I wasn't willing to hammer after the claim.

Not V/LA; lurking.

[Vi]

Tom Mason brings up a decent analogy, especially since I have a meta on DoomCow suggesting that this is par for the course.

I think there are valid reasons for lynching Gerrendus AND DoomCow, tbqh. 276 forces me to question Gerrendus's motives considering he hammers the utility lynch Der Hammer immediately afterward (why lynch someone else who's equally useless but not as scummy IYO as the person you're looking at?). In addition, Post 45 seems like a petty attempt to push suspicion onto Scheherazade at the very beginning.

Something else I re-found--

Scheherezade: I voted him yesterday, and the reread made me happy with that. Especially now that Percy died tonight, who had some strong posts against him (97 and 132 especially)

Now see, this is something that I feel should bear more discussion. By itself it is not much as most smart mafia do not aim for the person they argued with during the day because that line is pretty easy to connect, however combined with the number of fallacies in Sheh's posts yesterday...I'm not sure if that totally clears him. Though I would like to hear some other opinions on this matter as I feel it does bear further investigation. Perhaps we should be asking ourselves: 1)Would Sheh have killed percy due to his disagreement with him during the day, or 2)Is it more likely there is someone who would benefit in having percy killed by using taht as an argument to have sheh lynched?

NK WIFOM is bad, but Gerrendus is using Scheherazade's reputation as a poor debater to try pushing it as worth considering!

This is DoomCow's premier analysis post.

Al4xz: some strange vote hopping at the end of the day and his mentioning of a possible GF are both sending me bad vibes.

Juls did some strange things in the early day, and added some minor confusion near the end. But she asked to be replaced, so I'm not sure of her motives.

Finally I'd like to mention Gerrendus who did some minor semi-scummy things, and got the lynching vote.

There, finished. Events of this day have made me more suspicious of both Al4xa and Scheh, but I didn't like the vote hopping and the way Al4xz tried to talk himself out of it, that weighs the most, so that's where I'm voting for now. Still seeing Scheh as a good second though...

vote: Al4xz

al4xz did "strange vote hopping", but Gerrendus did "some minor semi-scummy things"; while al4xz did change his vote more at the end the difference in scale is noted (plus we never found out what those "semi-scummy things" were; I'm assuming it refers to Gerrendus's last-minute vote hop alongside al4xz). We've already asked about Juls, and it turned out to be mostly gut and turned to mush by the replacement. And I sense from the second post that the direction he chose to place his vote toward was somewhat arbitrary. (Note that while Gimbo put the L-1 vote on al4xz, DoomCow placed the L-2 vote.) The entire analysis is heavy on vagueness; I'd like to see clarification on Gerrendus's "semi-scummy things", at least.

I'm starting to think Gerrendus and DoomCow are together.

[Vi]

My campaign to take over ms's signatures is starting to come to light

[Vi]

Huntress replaces ribwich. Thanks Huntress!

Say hey, someone I know! Welcome in!

[Vi]

Hello again Vi! You seem to have a new avatar every week

Just every time I die or finish a game... which now that you mention it kind of IS every week these days. (Expect it to change again within 24 hours <.<; )

On a serious note, I think OhGodMyMajora'sMask just started the 72-hour deadline timer, so come back as soon as you can >.>

[Vi]

On a serious note, I think OhGodMyMajora'sMask just started the 72-hour deadline timer, so come back as soon as you can >.>

Deadline still suspended while I work out whether or not Gerrendus is going to need to be replaced. Carry on.

The universe hates me.

[Vi]

This game is now Amazing. Sorry you both drew short straws, though... And I've been wondering how long it would be before I saw you again, Jahudo

I'm not willing to unvote on the basis of player replacement, but I'm interested in seeing where your rereads take you.

[Vi]

Setup speculation...? Are you talking about the stuff on Page 2, with explaining a standard role and giving an estimate on the number of scum based on what's normal for the setup size? I will concede that the bottom part of Vi 41 (a counter to Scheherazade's IMO well-intentioned fishing) was probably unnecessary, but still, that seems weak. :v
I can't do much about interactions with Juls. I thought she was fun to have around, but noticed at the start of D2 that she hadn't actually

said

much of anything.

What about ribwich/Huntress was "scummy as all hell"?

[Vi]

- Your behavior towards Scheherazade wagon Day 1 (as far as I can tell, you were pushing the Scheherazade wagon while always finding a way to be on a lurkish player instead, behavior I would expect from a scum trying to take advantage of a townie fight such as the Scheherazade-Percy fight)

I mostly avoided the Scheherazade wallfest because I thought the initial issue was being blown out of proportion, and even gave Scheherazade credit for shooting down his own newb-card defense. That said, I separately grilled Scheherazade for not going on the offense, which I was much more interested in. Had he done that the first, second, or maybe third time I asked, I wouldn't have gotten so frustrated with him.

- Your behavior towards the Puta Puta wagon Day 2 (commented on him needing to post something yet never appeared to follow it up, late jump onto the wagon)

You're talking about Vi 409, right? I gave him one post, he posted something lame, and then in my next post I voted him.
If you're talking about before then, I did mention him in 331, and then shot him the Internet equivalent of dirty looks in a few other posts; but I could tell he was more than just this village's idiot, so I mostly ignored him before his vote to put al4xz to L-1.

[Vi]

Question here - how would you have expected scum to react to the Scheherazade wagon?

Given that the two major opposing forces were both Town-side, I would predict that scum would:
*goad on the Scheherazade wagon, preferably with little scumhunting effort.
*join the wagon after the fight/argument has been established for a while, again economical on the reasoning.
*alternatively, ignore it altogether.

The people implicated by at least one of these are basically the people Jahudo is suspicious of, plus Gerrendus (Jahudo himself).

Again, question - by "more than just this village's idiot", were you trying to say "so idiotic that he could be the idiot for many villages" or "something more than a village idiot"?

The former, although swap out "many villages" for "the global community".
Before he put al4xz to L-1 I saw him as a lurker and moron, but not one of the better lynch choices.

@Jahudo: I wasn't especially suspicious of Der Hammer - I don't expect scum to act so idiotic and expect to fly - but I also wasn't very suspicious of Scheherazade either. I had to make a choice between the two when I found out that deadline was coming, though.

Where is everyone? (again)

[Vi]

Please note V/LA in sig. I'll see you at the end of the week!

[Vi]

@Tarhalindur: Could you condense that giant PbPA of ribwich to a sentence or two? I have some ideas of what it would look like, but for the sake of psychology I would like it to come from your text box.

I’m surprised that by post 331 Vi hasn’t commented on al4xz’s “Are you serious? Shit! Town, sorry!” post 287 and Vi didn’t get a bad vibe from it in his post 290. This was something people were questioning early day 2 but Vi, who was suspicious of al4xz day 1, ignored it at the start of day 2.

I saw that the whole dust-up over al4xz's setup speculation was to some degree an overreaction on my part, so some amount of that D1 suspicion had subsided. The expletive-ridden notHammer seemed explicable by al4xz being a newer player and wanting a claim -

if he was Town

; to check on this, I asked him about Scheherazade, since that was where he had jumped from to vote Der Hammer.

In his summary of ima he says he’s ringing up as weird. I think that needs more explanation how these things look scummy to Vi.

The guy basically admitted to lurking through Ds 1 and 2, and tried to push the near-lynch al4xz wagon as Gimbo started to come under fire. He voted Gimbo to L-1 and then almost made a joke of telling people that he was at L-1, presumably to prevent a mislynch (or that's how I interpreted it). It seems mostly self-explanatory.

-post 389 Agree that nk speculation is filled with WIFOM here. I don’t think DoomCow was using nk speculation to hate Scheh so I don’t know why you grouped other people in with that argument. It looks like slight strawmanning. And I don’t think giving someone ways “to make them look better” is how you counter confirmation bias.

You didn't see DoomCow 377?
As far as the last sentence, showing under what circumstances you would reconsider your position on someone would break the idea of "this guy's scum and I'm tuning out other opinions", aka tunneling.

I am, as before, against a massclaim until tomorrow. Giving the scum a Christmas hit-list is just a bad idea. I don't immediately see a reason to disbelieve Tarhalindur's claim, since I believe Tom Mason is Town and the vig claim makes sense. iaun's objection in 606 is faulty since I think it's considerably more likely that DoomCow would miss N0; and he was, y'know, the person playing back then.

Re: Investigating Tom Mason - I am against anyone imposing strategic plans on someone who can no longer explain themselves. If DoomCow were here, we could very well ask him why he chose to act as he did, and his reason may well be kosher. The fact is,

we don't know

.

----

For Jahudo, my top three.

*Jahudo/Gerrendus. Your walls reflect well on you, but you are still responsible for Gerrendus's activities. Your reasons for voting me are all c/pd from before, and I think I've answered most of them already (granted, some of those answers are in this post). I'm not uncomfortable with my vote on you.

*Jazzmyn. I'm not convinced by her jump onto the Scheherazade wagon D1, but what bothers me more is that outside beating Scheherazade around, she hasn't said much at all. I don't like how she's trying to discredit Cowhalindoom for investigating Tom Mason N1; already referenced above. And rereading today, I don't know where Jazzmyn stands on anyone except DoomCow. It seems like Jazz is going under the radar, and I don't like it.

*iamausername. I've already talked about him in this post. His activity D3 seems neutral to me.

[Vi]

Your "reading, will reply later" factor is spiking.

[Vi]

@615: Wow, I feel inadequate. I and others saw some of those things already today, but the vs. Scheherazade analysis shows me how bad I am about giving people the benefit of the doubt. Tag errors aside, I'm not seeing anything to criticize in it.

@616: Why is Jazzmyn a more viable lynch?

[Vi]

Pardon me for speaking for Jahudo, but I suspect it has something to do with the fact that we have less than two days until deadline and it doesn't look like his preferred lynch is getting traction.

If you think the case for Jazzmyn is good, Vi, would you mind voting her? I'd really rather not have Jahudo lynched today, but that's starting to look like the lesser of two evils here.

I would like for Jahudo to answer the question.
Also consider the context of what you're asking me to do:

Jahudo, why are you flipping from your #1 to vote Jazzmyn?

Unvote: Vi's #1
Vote: Jazzmyn

Also

Thirding Deadline Extension (48 hours + massprod)

if OhModMyLife is willing to give.

[Vi]

@Vi: Deadline is approaching and from what I could gather on other people who have posted their suspect lists, more people are suspicious of Jazzmyn than Vi and a majority vote on her could be reached in the time we have. I'm suspicious of both and at the time only slightly more so about Vi.

Fair.

@Vi: Who do you mean by 'giving "people" the benefit of the doubt' in post 617?

I didn't understand some parts of the Scheherazade vs. Jazzmyn feud on my own, and because it was so dense I left those parts out of my consideration altogether. Seeing Tarhalindur saw it in half in a way that made sense was... humbling.
The statement wasn't meant to be an attack or a defense so much as a complaint about my own ability.

-----

What does IIoA mean?

The first one here.
Although I do have a question: What do you think of Gerrendus (now Jahudo)? In fact, what do you think of... everyone, actually?

Or, better yet, "Why don't you make sure that every vig or SK shoots the hell out of him ASAP?"

Jazzmyn, you've got Tarhalindur on this one. At that time (D2), we had no knowledge of the existence of a Vig, and I'm not sure what motivation an SK would have for killing Gimbo.

I wondered whether or not you would actually read the thread to see where DoomCow's focus was. Interestingly enough, DoomCow expressed suspicion on Day 1 on TAX, whom nobody else seemed to find suspicious, and who was a relative unknown...I guess that's another "gaping problem", hmm?

Recall what I have already said (people

do

occasionally read my posts, right?) about how DoomCow can't vouch for his motives. And having played a game with DoomCow already, I'm not particularly confident in his judgment. (Interestingly, he was a JOAT in that game as well.)
Shortly put, I don't think a discussion about DoomCow's motives in targets will reach a definite conclusion.

I recognize that it is difficult to account for the actions of a predecessor, as I have replaced into every game I’ve played so far except for this one, but that doesn’t absolve you of your predecessor’s actions and it does not make me “hypocritical” at all. Now, you're just being silly.

I believe Tarhalindur is saying it would be hypocritical to accuse you of leaving yourself an opening to leave a wagon after accusing you of being ON that wagon based on accusations against a player who's no longer here.

Even without the Gimbo-meta-defense accusation, the reasons I've already given in a previous post (:P) for holding you in suspicion still stand, augmented by Tarhalindur's analysis of you vs. Scheherazade.

-----

About the massclaim, I wouldn't mind doing it now. It would give us an impression about the set-up. What's the main reason for not doing it today?

It would show the scum who to target, and if there were any roles that had anything to talk about they would have said so already.
tbqh, it seems the Town's split about it though :v

I'm most definitely looking forward to your commentary though, preferably before the end of the Day.

-----

But what is to stop Tar-scum taking advantage of the fact that there was a third kill N2 by claiming a kill that he made was actually a vig-kill?

I think that this concern can be settled tomorrow under certain conditions. (Not that I want to say what they are aloud until then.)

-----

My doubt was because I believed his claim and I would not expect there to be someone else claiming to be the JOAT. People have questioned him on it, but I meant challenge in terms of trying to suggest "He is not the JOAT, I am."

I've not been in a game with a JOAT in this situation; however, I would think that the counterclaim would be more from a Vig who can dispute "credit" for Scheherazade's death.

I never see him list her as his #2 option either.

He had to post a "back-up vote"

[on Jazzmyn]

even earlier when he voted for Vi.

...?

-----

We require more Caboose.

[Vi]

@Tom Mason: What

should

Jahudo have done, if not unvote me and vote Jazzmyn?
From where I'm sitting, he seems to be talking sense.

[Vi]

You've

got

to be kidding me.

Huntress, I'm finding myself agreeing with Tarhalindur (and disagreeing

strongly

with Jazzmyn). Please give an example or two of a discrepancy between Tarhalindur and reality as you see it. Meanwhile, I'm seeing Jazzmyn effectively demonstrate the points against her--
*"Your case based on Jazzmyn vs. Scheherazade interactions is bad, and I invite others to look at it again until they change their mind."
This is effectively the only form of defense I've seen all day.
*Characterizing Tarhalindur as "screeching" and generally using put-downs to come up with multiple ways of saying "you have no case on me so shaddap".
*Being everything she's accusing Scheherazade of, character-wise. Jazz, you are so cynical and so willing to deny

any

case against you that you don't seem to be able to comprehend that Tarhalindur is willing to give you credit on his side of the analysis!

Obviously, I was saying that if you are scum, as I believe DoomCow/you to be, then you do, in fact, know why he did what he did - i.e., because he/you are scum.

Circular logic much?

Understand that there are a bunch of reasons to vote Jahudo, most of the good ones involving Gerrendus. But it looks like you hammered Jahudo

solely to prevent your own lynch

. "Following Tarhalindur"? Is everyone who disagrees with you scum? Doing a quick look through your posts in isolation, you haven't once criticized Gerrendus and you certainly haven't said anything to Jahudo other than "Read the topic until you realize that all the mistakes you think I made don't exist". Meanwhile, Jahudo had Tarhalindur as his #1 vote and put the guy to L-1, and didn't make any statements about Tarhalindur's PbPA (though he criticized your defense).

[Vi]

@mod: Are we in LyLo?

We need more Huntress (from 643) and ZazieR (from 635) ITT. Tarhalindur too, although he's fresh out of access - I'm interested in his choice of night action.

[Vi]

I said something, but I think it was completely irrelevant.

Also, posting before prod :o

[Vi]

@mod: Are we in LyLo?

We need more Huntress (from 643) and ZazieR (from 635) ITT. Tarhalindur too

, although he's fresh out of access

- I'm interested in his choice of night action.

Also this.

[Vi]

Ooo, that's an interesting article. Thanks for sharing!

2) her comment about being vigged yesterday actually seemed like genuine disappointment

I wondered the same thing. Asking to be killed for the good of the Town brings back bad memories of my first game (where I was Town).

Good thing Jahudo's not here to comment any more; he was in that game.

My gut says that we're probably looking at 4 town, 2 full Mafia, 1 Mafia Traitor (5 scum is probably too many),

Under this setup, how would you explain the two-kill base?

[Vi]

Seriously guys, I don't want to have to prod

everyone in this game

:v
Life has been lively recently. I've been trying to put out one good post in each of my games, and since this one was the most inactive among them, this became lowest priority.

<envision more and better excuses in this space so I don't have to type them and you don't have to read them>

-----

@Tom Mason: Are we in LyLo?

[Vi]

@Tarhalindur: I looked through my posts to find what you were talking about with the IIoA, but I didn't see it. What in particular are you talking about?

What method do we use for the massclaim? Chosen order? Random order? Popcorn?

'Never done this before, so excuse the question; but what's the difference (okay, I get what the oxymoronic "random order" is) between them and what are the advantages either way?

I think I'll be able to (finally) get back into this game today, so I should have a review of the Jazzmyn case soon as well as some stuff of my own.

-----

@Darox: Considering ZazieR and Huntress already said they were promising analyses (well, okay, just Huntress), and the LyLo thing seems to be a longwinded IIoA that could/should be shortened to say "How 'bout we don't mislynch and we don't have to worry about it", I'm not impressed with your post 682.

This is the part where I say Unvote and promise that reading is happening.

That reading isn't of this game, by chance, is it?

[Vi]

I got up to about page 12 before the novelty of seeing dead townies fighting among themselves wore off.

I'll read through everything more fully in time, but I want to see what Zaizer and Huntress tell me as well.

I sense that you're not going to read at all, unless you have to. <_<

----

Tom Mason

- Despite recent play that sets me on edge a bit (namely surety that Jazzmyn is scum before Jazzmyn attempts to defend herself), Cophalindur claims he's Town. Not worth looking at unless Tarhalindur is scum (see below).

Tarhalindur

- It's theoretically possible that his JOAT claim is a lie - I notice the JOAT differs only from the one he used in Tarhalindur Mostly Mountainous in its kill method - but see no reason to doubt that he had/used a one-shot Vig. That clinches it for me; I don't see a reason to believe scum could get an extra NK with the setup as is.

Huntress

- ribwich seemed Town to me, as said before. Huntress, however, has been on the disappointing - or at least unsubstantiated - side so far. Huntress has mentioned her suspicions on Tom Mason and Tarhalindur a number of times, but still hasn't backed them up. I'm quite interested in seeing what she puts together, especially since she suspects the people I see as uncontestably Town. I'm also interested in seeing why she doesn't suspect Jazzmyn.

ZazieR

- So, why is ZazieR posting in other games and not in this one? There's a small interplay between her and Juls speculating on the setup together early on (but after strife's post saying no no no) that's interesting. Similarly, later she tried to reason with Gimbo and get him to confirm himself. Other than these attachments, I don't really have problems with her... though her lack of activity ITT is a big problem.

Caboose -> Darox

- Rereading, I'm not really sure why people see/saw Caboose as particularly pro-Town. Most of his responses to questions (namely, my questions) seem unhelpful and dodgy. His long walls D1 are mostly saying "hmm this and this and this and this is bad"

ad infinitum

, but I still think his vote for Scheherazade came at a strange time in his posts considering all the other evidence flying around. Moreover, I'm noticing that Caboose was terribly inactive, posting very seldom through D2. On top of his posts, which I don't find all that satisfactory, I think it would be fair to call Caboose an active/lurker. Darox isn't improving on this so far.

Jazzmyn

- Leafing through Tarhalindur's case, the "disingeniousness" post in particular still strikes me as hideously scummy. After that...

In fact, what's most striking here is that Jazzmyn seems to have absolute contempt for ANYONE who presents any kind of case at all against her (like Puta Puta, who ridiculed his attackers by claiming that they all had to be opportunistic scum... and while Puta Puta was an idiot, that contemptuous defense IS often seen from scum.)

This is a meta-question I've been wondering about for a while now, because there are a few people who become some combination of hoity and toity when attacked regardless of alignment. Could you show me some examples outside this game where non-Gimbo-level idiots acted like this?

Sure, it was a mislynch, but in my experience the town response to a mislynch is to reassess other players rather than defend being on the wagon. Sure, it was a hammer that drew fire, but then I would expect a townie to justify shutting down discussion more than their presence on the wagon. Instead, I'm seeing an attempt to avoid scrutiny for the Jahudo vote (guilty conscience?) and tie EVERYTHING - even setbacks that might spur a rethinking of the situation - into a renewed case on another player. Am I the only person who's thinking that Jazzmyn herself is exhibiting confirmation bias here?

What you have said here very well may be correct - the guilty conscience and confirmation bias - but the important question is whether those are indicative of Town (not necessarily pro-Town). I know in her situation I wouldn't want the hammer held over my head, so I would explain it and move on. The striking part here is, as you said, the confirmation bias - that all of this is evidently Your Fault. I would definitely like to hear Jazzmyn's case in light of this.

See also:

In addition, I was

convinced

that iamasusername was pro-town

orly
Was it because of (567), or was there something more?

What IS pinging my scumdar is the rush to justify her position as being correct even when the outcome was incorrect, both by attempting to paint her opponent's actions as scummy (which they were not) and to claim that he needed to die even if he was town (HOW THE HELL IS THAT A TOWN MINDSET?)

The difference in scumminess could be put down to a difference of opinion. As far as HOW THE HELL THAT'S A TOWN MINDSET, I would note that Jazzmyn never said that Scheherazade needed to die posthumously.

Hell, most of Jazzmyn's defense this game (lack of detailed defense, suddenly ignoring her main attacker just when he began attacking her in-depth, referring attackers to previous posts under the premise that said posts are self-evident) makes sense if

Jazzmyn is trying to avoid giving detailed defense on the grounds that it would likely prove her scum.

Look at that italicized sentence again, because it's absolutely damning.

I've never heard of this kind of tactic before, not as something done all game. Then again, it does align with how Jazzmyn doesn't seem to look in more than one direction at once unless threatened with corporeal punishment. This is definitely something I want Jazzmyn to answer.

(Also of note here: Jazzmyn is suddenly choosing to ignore the player who was her primary target during most of D1 and D2 and clearly her preferred target at the time. Why the hell would ANY townie do that? It shuts down any opportunity for the suspect to show that he is not scum - by play or by claim. - AND it shuts down the opportunity to gather additional evidence against the suspect. Indeed, it suggests that the player who chooses to ignore their suspect is so certain about their case that mere facts cannot shake their belief... and I don't see how a townie could EVER be that sure that another player is scum.)

Under the circumstances of Scheherazade+Jazzmyn, I would agree with this.

- Confirmation bias: Note that Jazzmyn goes out of her way to paint EVERYTHING her targets have done as scummy, to the extent that she is unwilling to admit that ANYTHING her targets have posted is not scummy. Even after they're dead and proven town (see: Scheherazade, Jahudo). (Maybe there's an exception I'm missing, but I didn't see one on my isolation reads.)

A little lighter on Jahudo than Scheherazade, and I wouldn't agree with the caps-lock EVERYTHING, but otherwise yes.

- Projection: Jazzmyn has accused both of her main attackers of mindsets that she indicates in her own posts (for Scheherazade, it was misrepresentation and bad attitude; for myself, it seems to be confirmation bias). That's not just hypocritical - given how consistent this has been, I'm seeing evidence of outright projection (where a person or persons "projects", or ascribes, bad attributes of the person or group to another person or group that is seen as an enemy*).

Agreed.

Separately from this, there's still quite a bit for Jazzmyn to answer for; namely in the Jahudo hammer itself, violent interactions with a few people and none with others, and the initial jump onto Scheherazade.

-----

Players were listed in order of increasing suspicion.

[Vi]

Based on the interruption due to the recent site crash, deadline has been moved to

January 21st.

Oh lovely. 'Good thing I checked up on this.

We're a day away from deadline and we

still

haven't done anything today. In the cases of Jazzmyn, Huntress, Darox, and especially ZazieR, you haven't SAID anything either. While it's probably not coincidental that you're the four people most likely to be Mafia IMO,

this is unacceptable at potential LyLo!

It's time to start posting whatever you've got. Getting all hands on deck may not happen given the short turn-around time, but we need to make some decisions, fast.

@mod: Has ZazieR picked up her prod?

because looking at her activity onsite, I'm quite... frustrated with her absence.

@Tarhalindur:

You have an outstanding question from me (683). Also, is massclaiming still a good idea given the tight quarters?

[Vi]

@Vi: After reading your analysis of everyone... Are you willing to vote against Jazzmyn?

Yes.
I'll see who else shows up today - it IS short notice - and vote tonight; but unless one of the absent four convinces me to do something else it's going to be Jazzmyn.

@Tarhalindur: My scumdar doth protest too much about calling ZazieR Town

over me

. I'd like to hear about her prod status, but making 60 posts elsewhere over three weeks since her last one here? Implausible.

Also@Tarhalindur:

@Tarhalindur: I looked through my posts to find what you were talking about with the IIoA, but I didn't see it. What in particular are you talking about?

This is what I was talking about; I completely forgot about the question right below it ;>.>

[Vi]

OGML, if you haven't already, don't delete the prod PM. It looks like you sent it a few hours after her last post... Sunday. I'm interested in seeing when she picks it up.

Though I'm grateful for the deadline extension.

[Vi]

Thanks OGML! glad to be here.

Everyone else, I'm just starting to read the thread now. It might take me a little while to catch up, but I should have the whole thread read by sometime tomorrow.

A little about my mafia experience, for those I haven't played with yet, I've been playing on the site for 6 or 7 months, and only had a limited experience with mafia on *some* site I can't remember, about 10 years ago. I started out only playing in 1 game at a time, which explains my smaller number of games played, but recently have decided I can handle more games at a time (this game makes me alive in 4). I don't usually get upset or emotional, but I do have a tendancy to occasionally make long posts that some people don't like. If my posts start getting to long, give me a "tl;dr" and I'll get the point. I've also never once been prodded, let alone replaced, so take some comfort in knowing that I'm an active player, at least. Also, all of my previous games have either been mini's or newbies, so if there are any tips or anything different I should expect about a larger game, I'm always open for learning. Like a sponge.

If there are any pressing matters I should address, regarding my predecessor, or any other questions you guys want me to answer, ask and I'll answer. Otherwise, I probably won't post until I'm finished reading, or if my read is taking longer than I expected.

I'm going to obligatory

unvote

. I don't know who or even if zaz was voting for anyone, but since I have replaced in, if and when I'm voting for someone, it will be based on my justification, and not zaz's.

tl;dr already you sponge



-----

Let me see if I can

not

get shot down by OGML for a third time on this subject...

@mod: When is the deadline?

[Vi]

The largest possible IIoA I see in your posts is your conversation with Tom Mason and iamausername on out-of-game subjects early Day 3 (December 2-December 4 in particular) and to a lesser extent Day 1 (while discussing Juls' "community service points". Before I explain further, allow me to ask: What was your reason for going on out-of-game tangent discussions with Tom Mason and iamausername D3.

The reason for going into off-topic tangent discussions with Tom Mason and iaun was because they said things that did not directly apply to the game, and I *gasp* chose to respond to them. I don't recall a "discussion" of Juls' "community service points", either; it was a somewhat indirect way of saying "I agree with Juls that Scheherazade+Percy needs to stop".

Up until a few hours ago, I would have had no idea what you're getting at - I go off on unrelated tangents as either alignment, because 1) I'm capable of carrying on more than one conversation at once, and 2) I like talking to the random like-minded people I meet on the Internet. However, as I mentioned earlier I just finished a game where a scum player did a very phony attempt at an off-topic conversation (and no, nobody called him on it) and I was wondering if that could have been taken as an indicator. So while I'm still skeptical, I'm willing to hear you out about it.

(Also, Rhinox, how's the puppy?)

I thought IIoA was essentially what you were doing in 700. You're basically saying that to win, we have to look for one of three mutually exclusive roles, all of them loners at this point. I understand the setup logic, but I don't understand where you're going with it - in one scenario, you want to lynch Jazzmyn-scum; in another, you DON'T want to lynch Jazzmyn-scum; and in yet another, you want to lynch Jazzmyn-scum

and everyone else

. (Except ZazieR for some reason.) That broadens the window of people you'd like to vote, I think

-----

Having read and looked into Huntress's post, I have no objections (for a change) and I think she could be on to something. However, there are still two issues with expressing suspicion with Tom Mason.
*Cophalindur claimed Not Guilty on Tom Mason
*Vighalindur claimed to use a one-shot on Scheherazade, creating three kills when normally there are two (for verifiability)
The two of these together clear Tarhalindur and Tom Mason IMO, unless you have (or someone has) a better explanation for the third kill.

[Vi]

Not quite simulposted.

Let me first say how impressed I am that you never finish what it is you are intending to comment on, instead moving to something else, Huntress.

Clarify.

I expect a townie to be cautious and know what the vote count is, just as much as any other player.

And al4xz's counter still stands - do you think NOT keeping track of your vote is more characteristic of a scum player, or a Town player?

I think the main reason is that it tells the scum who the power roles are and we've no guarantee there's another doctor. I'd rather leave it up to the PRs to decide whether any information they have so far is enough to take the risk.

If this game is going to likely end without another day phase, what do we lose from a mass-claim?

Huntress' quote is from Day 3. You know, as in "not today".

The only people who have a reason to avoid a mass claim are those who have something to hide.

Doesn't matter, I missed how soon the deadline is - we don't have time for a massclaim, so we'll have to work without it.

(*Maybe* after massclaim, but I don't think we have enough time for that now.)

Your distancing from Jazz is amazing.

What.

You've barely mentioned Huntress before, and certainly not in any context with Jazzmyn.

I'm definitely waiting for Huntress's post vs. Tarhalindur now.

[Vi]

My current version of IIoA is

"Players who are active but are not using that activity to actively scumhunt are very probably scum"

.

I call that "active lurking" but yes, I agree with you here.

You've done what appears to be at least some scumhunting (summary post, asking questions), but you've also had quite a few off-topic posts (particularly early Day 3, where I didn't see any game-related posts until your summary a few days in, and early Day 1 during the setup speculation period),

That summary a few days in... I hope you're not talking about 504. That was a few days in, but I hadn't posted before then D3.
After that, sure, I went on tangents. Then again, while doing so I made sure I responded to everything on-topic.
The "early Day 1 during the setup speculation period" was a single post criticizing the reasoning behind a random vote made against me, something that I'm not seeing as anti-Town (because lol rvstage). On top of that, it was sandwiched between two Vi-posts that are helpful by your definition.

Now let me ask this. You keep making conditional statements about me - IF this is is the setup THEN I'm scum, and IF I'm scum THEN I've good reason to scumhunt. But I still think your charges are bogus. I'll probably regret asking, but just how scummy

am

I to you, anyway?

2) Another reason why I brought up setup analysis is because my lynch choice is very different if we're dealing with an SK than if we are not.

And how do you plan to learn whether this is the case?

I still support a massclaim in theory, and if we can get one done I would prefer to do so. I'm just not sure if a massclaim is *possible* at this point.

Another theory question, but how bad would it be to throw organization to the wind and say ALL PEOPLE CLAIM IN YOUR NEXT POST AFTER THIS?

-----

I'll write up my comments after a good rest.

'Looking forward to this.

-----

@mod: Prod Jazzmyn.

She's reasonably active... except in this topic.

-----

@Tom Mason: I disagree with the theory behind scum being less careful about their votes, but otherwise I've no further objections.

[Vi]

Quick post to say I'm a Vanilla Townie (a Vi-Town, if you will).

Huntress is correct that Vanilla Townie is an all-around awesome role to have. After being a Doctor in so many games, I can say with confidence that Vanilla is a step up.

Will read over the rest of what's been said when I wake up.

[Vi]

@Jazzmyn 723: Are you serious? He forgot you claimed. (So did I.) Does that make him scummy?

Given what I was expected to see... I am inclined not to believe Huntress' claim. I was expecting a power role claim.

Why?

@Huntress & Jazzmyn: I've explained a few times how Tarhalindur (and by extension Tom Mason) are confirmed innocent. I'm not willing to say they're squeaky or clean by their play, BUT you need to counter that argument if you're going to continue to suggest they are scum.

@Darox: Exist. Meaningfully, preferably.

@Rhinox: Iunno, you might be getting a prod

-----

The rest of this post, looking at Jazzmyn's defense, is forthcoming. Apologies for the wait, etc.

[Vi]

The short response to Jazzmyn's summary:

The "disingeniousness" post still warrants ire. Saying that you're not contemptuous and that you don't demonstrate a bad attitude is a lie, bluntly put.

In addition, I was

convinced

that iamasusername was pro-town

orly
Was it because of (567), or was there something more?

Answer this.

Separately from this, there's still quite a bit for Jazzmyn to answer for; namely in the Jahudo hammer itself,

violent interactions with a few people and none with others

, and the initial jump onto Scheherazade.

This is the one that something can be done about, but nothing HAS been done about it.
You're welcome to give your opinions on people any day now.

What you have said here very well may be correct - the guilty conscience and confirmation bias - but the important question is whether those are indicative of Town (not necessarily pro-Town). I know in her situation I wouldn't want the hammer held over my head, so I would explain it and move on. The striking part here is, as you said, the confirmation bias - that all of this is evidently Your Fault. I would definitely like to hear Jazzmyn's case in light of this.

Answer this too. What role did Tarhalindur play in "manipulating you" into hammering Jahudo?

I'm really not sure where to go here. There's no shortage of anti-Townness in your words and actions, but at the same time I'm not sure if your frustration post-hammer post was faked or not. I'm leaning toward "yes".

-----

Ribwich's first vote in the game was for Juls/Puta Puta... Then he pulled it away when there were three votes. Hardly enough for a Day One bandwagon or concern, but playing it safe maybe? Easy added a vote to Sche/Der Hammer as their votes increased.

Then on Day Two, Ribwich voted for Puta Puta first again when PP put the L-1 vote on al4xz. Highly doubt he thought PP would get lynched so easily -- and when the wagon started shifting, could he really retract his vote in haste? It would look odd. It was best to distance himself... And holding to his first vote did that.

Um, no?
Did you see why ribwich voted Juls? and would you say it was a lynchable offense?
The D2 stuff is spinning cloth IMO (or whatever the term is for it).

-----

Vi, explain these posts, and the former comment in particular. NOW.

I honestly can't remember what the "certain conditions" were, though the rest of the first quote was referring to the massclaim today. It sounds bad, but it's been a month and with this game being low priority I've lost track of what it was.

The second quote was referring to your night action, because you had two abilities that would stop NKs. I was hoping for you to be able to confirm someone else. Because you protected someone I knew was already confirmed (yourself), no such luck.

I see later that you noted that this plays into a theory where I am scum with Tom Mason-Godfather. It's the truth, though. (the reason I asked, not that me and Mason are partners)

Vote coming once I decide whether Vi or Darox (...) is more likely to be scum.

So your case on me is now that I didn't claim Vig and that I've called Tom Mason innocent all day based on obvlogic? Or am I oversimplifying?

Related question: Does the fact that I'm NOT the Vig make me scummy? If so, how, etc.

-----

When someome specifically requests a claim, receives a claim in response to his specific request and then later purports not to have noticed and pretends not to have asked, yes, I think that indicates scumminess indeed. Why do you think otherwise?

Don't you think it strange that someone would specifically ask for a claim from a specific person and later purport to have no knowledge of having asked for same, and purport to have no knowledge of having received a direct response, even when both the request and the response are right there for everyone to see?

If not, why not?

No, I don't think it's scummy. This game has dragged on for so long with so many open gaps in the middle that I'm quite understanding of people who would forget if you claimed amid the chaos D3 (considering I know I forgot).

Why are you so willing to pin something on Tom Mason? and why haven't you answered the objection about that sort of thing I've repeated so many times?

-----

/in before prod

Aww, he got out of it.

-----

A claim in the next post would be much appreciated.

I notice you haven't actually SAID anything today, outside "post forthcoming".
But at this point, you don't have to~

-----

Vi: leaning scum for meta reasons only. When Vi is town, hell hath no fury like Vi's wrath, when Vi is scum hunting. I didn't see that type of play in my read, so either Vi is playing more conservative (legit possibility), or Vi is having trouble fabricating cases with the same intensity as when actually scum hunting.

What you're saying is accurate, much as I don't want to admit it. I'll blame a lot of it on the pace of the game; coming from the point of view that Scheherazade was not scummy initially (at least not for the reasons other people were giving), a lot of the walls D1 and D2 seemed to be condensable into "ha! You misinterpreted me!". That plus the inactivity ITT basically killed whatever emotional attachment I had to this game. It's tough to play Knight Templar without religious fervor, after all. (Though I've only gotten bad results from my aggressive play so far, so perhaps it's not a bad thing that I haven't done so much of it ITT.)

Sorry for making excuses, but that's it. Stagnation goes up, apathy goes up, quality of play goes down.

-----

I am a vig

Here's Zazie's targets:

N0 - Xtoxm
N1 - strife220
N2 - Percy II
N3 - iamausername

As I'm not zaz, I can't give any insight as to why zaz made the choices she did, other than I would have policy vigged Xtorm myself

I doubt your claim. ZazieR expressed nearly no suspicion of strife. The other three are fair, but strife, an obvious pro-Town player?
Moreover, one issue with Pie-style vigging is that it

just happens

to look like what a Serial Killer would do.

If you want to get into setup balance (bleh), I disagree with everyone else about the roles. It strikes me that we've had three - and now apparently FOUR - very powerful Town roles come out, and no Mafia roles. (Granted, two of those roles died first thing, but the setup was probably not planned so that it would be OGML Mostly Mountainous.) Rhinox has already pointed out why there's likely no Mafia Roleblocker. Soo... what's left among the two or three remaining scum that could possibly be of use against two Trackers, a Doc that can confirm people, and a Vig? I think Town's overpowered with the addition of a Vig no matter what the scum have. ("Track-immunity"? It would be a first for me.) So I doubt there's a Town-side killing element in this game. Guess what that leaves.

and tar has a chance to confirm himself and Tom if he doesn't think

[Darox is]

scum. Its still dumb to lynch me today.

I'm not following your logic here.

Rhinox, lemme ask this - If Darox is lynched today, who will you vig? Remember that if there are two Mafia, a misvig means they win.

------
~~~
------

Darox is obvscum. Rhinox is looking a lot like obvSK. Jazzmyn is allbutobvscum. Huntress is absent. The rest are Town, though I wish they would act like it.

Will vote based on Rhinox's answer.

[Vi]

Also, I checked into ZazieR's meta. She was never a Vig as far as I saw, so I can't tell if Pie-vigging is in character for her.

[Vi]

If Darox is scum and lynched today, then IF Rhinox is a Vig - which still seems too convenient IMO - the game will not end regardless of what he does tonight.

If Darox is not scum, then the only candidates left are Jazzmyn and Huntress. Jazzmyn is, well, Jazzmyn. Huntress, I've developed reservations with - basically for what Tom Mason said. As of right now, it's not a duo I would rule out.

However, Tarhalindur offering to block Rhinox (a known killing element) if necessary changes things, guaranteeing that five people will survive the night.

So that takes care of my concerns.

Vote: Darox

(L-1)

-----

The niggles I've got against Vi are things like post 650. Why ask a question that you know the mod isn't going to answer? The only reason I can think of is that you want to make it look like you don't already know the answer.

On the other site I play on, we're told if we're in LyLo so we can

panic

plan accordingly. I thought I remembered games here that did so as well, so I asked expecting an answer.

[Vi]

The only problem with Rhinox's plan that I see is that Tarhalindur has

already confirmed his role

. Y'know, with that extra kill N2. Nobody has been able to answer this objection so far, and I've been saying this since D3.

Don't get me wrong, it IS a brilliant plan, I'm all for safe play, and I wouldn't be upset if you carried out your plan; but it has no practical purpose.

[Vi]

(I move away from the graduate school applications to breathe)

V*i

But haven't there been 4 player scum teams in minis?

I hope not.

-----

Tom Mason, at least, is confirmed Town; and Tarhalindur is in all probability Town as well. That means the scum are between Rhinox, myself, and Jazzmyn. I think it's clear that a non-Mafia killing element exists in the game (see Xtoxm death N0). Whether that killing element, since identified as Rhinox, is a Vig or SK is up for debate - I'm thinking SK because of the strife shot and a few other things. But either way, Rhinox is not Mafia. Nor am I. That leaves Jazzmyn.

As far as whether the lack of a second kill indicates Jazzmyn-scum, I think there are three possibilities that could explain what happened.

*There WERE two kill attempts, but one was blocked. This very clearly points to Jazzmyn-scum.
*There WERE two kill attempts, but they were against the same person (Huntress). This guarantees Jazzmyn is not scum.
*There WERE two kill attempts, but one of the targets was NK-immune. This also guarantees Jazzmyn is not scum. In addition, Rhinox has already claimed hitting Huntress, so if that's accurate the Mafia hit someone

Town-side

who was NK-immune. But that couldn't apply to anyone... except an NK-immune SK.

The second and third scenarios come with an interesting question attached - if Jazzmyn was blocked, who else could have fired? Knowing I didn't, it would have to be Tarhalindur - if we were dealing with Tom Mason-scum and Tarhalindur-Town, Tarhalindur should have received a Guilty on Tom Mason. (Considering the only Cop-style role in this setup was a JOAT, I doubt the existence of an investigation-immune role.) This implies that there IS an extra-NK ability amongst the scum, and that Tarhalindur's JOAT claim has been a well-orchestrated lie. While that's not impossible, from what I've seen of Normal setups an extra scumkill is pretty unlikely. Thus I'm willing to ignore the second and third scenarios.

Rhinox's 761 brings up another possibility - two scum could be left, and Rhinox is Vig. Not being one of the aforementioned scum, this necessarily limits them to Jazzmyn and Tarhalindur. It's an interesting scenario with some, ah, unique distancing, but it carries three caveats in addition to the existing arguments against Scumhalindur.
1) Standard conflict-of-interest WIFOM. Why should Tarhalindur bus his partner when he could just frame ME with the roleblock?
2) I don't think Rhinox is a Vig, and apparently, neither does he.

Has anybody considered the possibility that the game started with a 5 player scum team, that I am

actually

a vig, and that its 3-2 lylo right now?

^

If

I'm a vig, and there are 2 mafians remaining, lynching me today = lose as well.

3) The argument is obviously made out of self-preservation - that it would cause an autoloss to lynch Rhinox. Granted, every argument is to some extent. But from the wording of it, it sounds like a scare tactic.

Thus I see no reason to believe there are two more Mafiates.

-----

None of the above changes what I believed at the end of yesterday.

Bottom line:
Rhinox is obvSK.
Jazzmyn is obvscum.
I endorse the existing plan to take care of this mess, as it will pit two confirmed Townies against the obvSK.

Questions are always welcome. If there are no significant objections, I will vote in my next post.

[Vi]

Its just going through the motions. Please someone try and argue otherwise.

Working on it, obvSK.
And I'm sure you're excited about

something

, though "all but certain victory" may not be it.

[Vi]

Regarding the three scenarios, there's some confusion. Change the second and third cases to "There WERE two

successful

kill attempts". Obviously if one (Jazzmyn) was blocked that falls under scenario one.

Wallpost still forthcoming. I don't think it'll come out tonight though, stuff's going on.

[Vi]

Of course I see this as soon as I get back in for the night.

Well, I have good news and bad news.

The good news is, my Mafia is finally gone. Take a moment now and think of how royally screwed I/we have been all game.

The bad news is, I have reason to believe there's another Mafia, consisting of Rhinox and Tarhalindur. I didn't know about it until I got confirmation from OGML that my kill was received and dealt with.

I targeted Tarhalindur last night, checked with the mod to ensure that it was accurate, and obviously he's still alive. But he said (with verisimilitude) that he blocked Jazzmyn, so he's lying there. That means that Rhinox is lying about not killing Huntress. But Rhinox shouldn't have reason to lie about his Vig targets.

But on the plus side, I don't think Rhinox is an SK any more

The only chance I had was to convince you to lynch Rhinox instead. Thank you for just putting me out of my misery (and it was misery).

[Vi]

EBWOP:

The only chance I had was to convince you to lynch

Tarhalindur

instead.

Presumably Tarhalindur is NK-immune; I could whack Rhinox tonight.
Of course, I could have gone for Rhinox in the first place, but I thought he was NK-immune SK so yeah.

[Vi]

Hey Jazzmyn, while I'm "hanging around", so to speak, what's your avatar from?

[Vi]

Two SKs? Nya ha, New Age Mafia indeed. I like how both of you would have died if you weren't NK-immune (though I would have died first if my Godfather immunity had been taken away).

Of course, this means that I was screwed over even more than I ever expected, and I'm just lucky that there were no more crosskills. Awesome.

The reason I didn't come clean today - instead focusing on Rhinox-SK - was because Town didn't have a chance going into today, regardless. So claiming would have meant that Town should have lynched me out of futile self-preservation.

Hey Tom. If you don't particularly dislike Tar Sparrow or Rhinox, you may as well No Lynch. You're not winning anyway.

[Vi]

For the sake of information for the impatient.

N0 - Juls killed farside. (policy)
N1 - I killed strife220. (With the introduction of a third killing element, this means Rhinox doesn't necessarily have to be lying about this kill - which was my first tip that he was SK.)
N2 - I killed armlx. (Not because he had my number, but because Caboose told me what being scum against him was like.)
N3 - Caboose killed iamausername. (We thought he was obvSK.)
N4 - I attempted to kill Tarhalindur. (The most dangerous person alive, due to being one of the only two players throughout the game not dedicated to rabidly killing people of the same alignment.)

[Vi]

I don't think ANYONE expected this outcome. I myself was trying to get a Prisoner's Dilemma set up for tomorrow, but my death is something of a setback in regards to that.

So don't worry about being out of your league; up until Tarhalindur and Rhinox replaced in everyone was more or less equally lame

and Mafia was set to win

. But all the things you were accused of up until now? Don't do those in the future, and I think you'll do fine.

[Vi]

Tell me about it.

I wasn't sure why Rhinox went away from the easiest lynch in a game full of easy lynches at first. Then I checked in about my NK, and realized that not only was I messed over, but I couldn't even claim Mafia Godfather to convince the Town to lynch Rhinox, because given that Tarhalindur was also scum Town couldn't win in the first place today (and thus the proper play would have been to lynch me and hope I was lying through my teeth). This was just the semifinal elimination round.

<more complaints go here>

[Vi]

It makes sense. (Rhinox being Town, not the setup.)

Hey Tarhalindur. You complained to me about effing up your standing, but realize:
1) I would have been where you were today. Exactly where you were. And I would have lost the same way.
2) The fact that you

claimed SK in twilight

probably didn't help your chances.

----

The tl;dr version of my commentary on this game is that it just confirms what I've always said - replacements are scum's worst enemy. Town had no chance - or less than no chance, if possible - before Rhinox and Tarhalindur showed up.

You're all great people - well, okay, nearly all of you *glares at DH and Gimbo* - and I enjoyed playing with everyone D1. It's a shame Scheherazade and al4xz seem to have left.

[Vi]

That was a pretty good job considering 2 of the 3 Mafia deaths came off busses.

Fixed for harsh truth.

[Vi]

Thanks for the game everyone

That's the second game I've had niggles about Vi and he turned out mafia.

Realize I've only been Mafia on this site twice, and you were in both games. I think you've got a skewed perspective on me

N0 I tracked Vi to nowhere

That could have ended much worse than it did.

[Vi]

Vi, I don't see how you think your mafia team was screwed all game... you had all goons, but you also had that UNK godfather thing... And with Tar also UNK, that seems like a pretty good way to balance out the vig. On top of that, all the rest of the town "Power" roles got taken out pretty early. The tracker/2 grave diggers combo could have really messed with the town had all those roles survived longer. Town had no cop, and the doc got unlukily taken out N0...

Meh, I suppose you're right there.

Now consider that one of my Goonies got hit N0, and the other two were replaced for the worse while Town got replacements like armlx, Huntress, you, and Tarhalindur.

I don't know what Darox did or said but I was surprised that he came in and got lynched so quickly.

Nothing. Which was the point.

It occurs to me that me thinking Rhinox was SK was what got Town to win, because I didn't target Rhinox under the premise that he was NK-immune. If he was taken out of D5, we would have had a four-person Kingmaker with three people against Jazzmyn. Tom Mason dies overnight, I win the tie with Tarhalindur.

[Vi]

I would like to think my contribution was the swinger

Go jump in a lake.