Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[kuribo]

Guess I best get to reading.

PS- Sup Ythill? Here we are again.

[kuribo]

And no offense to those who have taken measures to outline the game on this page, but I don't trust any of you enough to think you're town and not misleading me.*



* And for the record, neither should anyone else.

[kuribo]

I'm not going to do a complete post by post analysis, because that would take too damn long, and this Day has been going for a month and a half.

Instead, here are my thoughts by page. I'm typing these as I read, so I reserve the right to change my opinion as I go along.

Page 1- Mostly random voting. Ythill doesn't do random votes, but I've played a handful of games with him, so I already know this isn't a scumtell for him. I don't mind nureins questioning him about this behavior. What I don't like is how he seems to accept Ythill's answer, and keeps his vote on him. habitang drops a vote on Ythill too. What did that hope to accomplish? This is the random vote stage but I don't think this vote is random. Andycyca OMGUS votes Simenon, but this is null too, since it's also a seemingly joke-vote. Ectomancer finishers off Page 1 asking Simenon what his supposedly serious vote would accomplish. Page 1 thoughts- What the hell do you want me to say? It's page 1.

Page 2- Pope's Tiara leads us off with an argument I've never liked: "Are you trying to act scummy so as not to draw attention to yourself?" Um, dude, I think that acting scummy has the exact opposite of that effect. And, further, the Matin post he quotes is taken completely out of context. Goat manages to clear up what I agree with as Matin's intent, but stops short of accusing Pope of twisting his words. (I would have.) habitang drops an FOS on Jahuto for trying to take things "to the next level." I don't like this: If things never reach the next level, then we're just random voting one another all day. nhat points out exactly what I said about Pope misrepresenting Matin's argument. Townie points to nhat for that. nureins says he took it that way too. (I don't like this explaining Pope's bizarre action) Pope also does this again, twisting Matin's words and comparing him to the Joker. How are you people not voting to pressure Tiara right now? Matin does a good job of pointing out how stupid the case is, and Ythill drops a vote on Pope. (Good for you, Ythill, about time) Pope rounds up page two by saying that his statements are meant as "ironic." I disagree. Page 2 Summary--- not liking Pope, don't like nurein's jumping in to help him. Liking Ythill and nhat right now, too.

I need to shorten these summaries.

Page 3- Pope's Tiara accuses Ythill of trying to gather information. (We all are) and votes him. Clearly OMGUS in disguise--- that's bad, coming from me since I hate the term OMGUS. Nhat doesn't like this post either. Good for you! Ecto votes Pope, clearly trying to put pressure on Pope. (Good vote) Nureins offers Matin 4 choices. (I hate when people do this, sometimes it's something you've never considered.) Pope votes himself. (Go cry some more, emo kid) Pope catches heat for this--- as well he should. Simenon makes a blanket statement that Pope is town without explanation. (Shame on you Sim, you should know that you're going to have to elaborate later) Sim piles a fourth vote on Ythill claiming Pope's post was clearly a joke. (What?) Ecto isn't sure where this puts us. Page 3 summary--- Pope, Simenon and nurein are my biggest suspects right now, the bandwagon on Ythill is absolutely ridiculous. At this point, MafiaScum goes down and I go play Pokemon LeafGreen, but I lie and say I'm playing Crysis. And we're back. I caught me a Mankey... errr, I mean, I choke-slammed lots of soldiers off cliffs.

Page 4- Cass tosses a well justified vote on Sim. Jahudo questions him too with a loaded question. (Shame on you) Generally a well thought-out post by Jahudo. Great post by Andy. Though I get the feeling he'll be replaced. Page 4 thoughts--- Still not liking Pope, I don't like the idea that "townies would self-vote." Here's a hint--- if scum know that, (and they do), they'll do it too.

Page 5- Interesting here is nureins backtracking from siding with Pope and dropping an FOS on him. I understand the reasoning for your backtracking--- you've been told now that he's not just some newbie mucking stuff up. But more disturbing is the fact that you DID defend him for so long... and now you drop an FOS? Why not a vote? Then you say you don't want him to be pressured? (Awww, let's take it easy on poor little Popey. WRONG! PRESSURE PRESSURE PRESSURE! ALWAYS MORE PRESSURE WRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHH *head starts spinning around backwards, vomits pea soup on the priest) Gives Pope a few helpful tips, "Think if you're a townie, this doesn't help, it's difficult to find people to defend you," etc. Simenon goes way off the deepend, and chooses not to defend himself. Page 5 Summary--- Pope and nureins still on my terrorist watch list. Sim does indeed look a BIT better, as he seems to be taking everyone to task for everything.

Page 6- nureins uses a loaded question to go after habitang. I agree somewhat with Goat that what Cass said isn't right--- those aren't scumtells for Sim. And I hate the "over defensive" "over aggressive" arguments--- I tend to be very aggressive. Page 6 Summary--- Leaning towards Sim as town, I liked how he explained his statments. Don't like Cass calling him over-defensive. I like the fact that nureins starts getting some votes / pressure here. Pope's Tiara is scummy and a lazy player who doesn't seem to be doing anything more than "lol mafiascum," and should likely be policy lynched just for that. (somewhat kidding)

Page 7- Infers vs implies is the stupidest argument I've ever read and it gives my brain the cry-alones. nureins blatantly and self-admittedly OMGUS votes Ythill. (LYNCH NUREINS) Nureins says that Andy is lurking (um, he said he'd be V/LA, remember?) and Cass agrees. (WTF?) And then Andy pops in. (I know Andy to be town, because I replaced him, but I don't like when people do that) habitang thinks Nureins and Sim are townies engaged in friendly fire. (Um, nureins is scummy by himself) Page 7 thoughts- Nureins still scummy. Pope seems to have given up on the game entire and taken the "lol mafiascum" approach. Townies shouldn't do this, I believe him to be scum who sees no point in continuing the game for fear of outting his partners.

Page 8- Oh look, it's nhat, how nice of you to join us. WOULD YOU LIKE TO PLAY A GAME OF MAFIA? Anyway, I mostly agree with nhat's sad little solitary post. I agree with Ythill. I hate theory discussion. It makes me want to killy myself and everyone around me. nureins actually accuses Ythill of misrepresenting an argument and compares him to some guy I've never heard of. (Ugh, how do you people ignore this crap?) Page 8 Summary- I think Ythill's on the right track and nureins is scum.

Page 9- nureins calls Ythill repetitive (I know you are, but what am I?) Ythill sees his behavior as backing down. (Agreed) Ythill puts together a REALLY strong case against nureins, says he won't name the three people he thinks are town. (GOOD!) nhat FOS' him for that (It's a bad idea because then scum knows who to NK) and Sim agrees with me / Ythill on that point. habitang twists Ythills "not all three are scum" to mean "There are three scum." (Bad post) To his credit, habitang backs down on this. Page 9 Summary--- I CAN HAS NUREINS PRESSURE PLZ? Also, where the hell did Pope go? Ythill doing some serious scum hunting.

Page 10- Nureins. GOEBELS GOEBELS GOEBELS. :rolleyes: habitang asks the mod how many scum there are. (It's a closed setup, we won't find out until we find out) Cass wants to know where Pope is (good for you) and nureins defends him. SURPRISE SURPRISE. Nureins claims if he wasn't after Ythill he'd be after Pope. Um... then why have you been sticking up for him? You wouldn't be after Pope, you'd likely be after habitang. Agreed with Sim that Ecto's "I can't get a read on anyone" is useless. Big difference between "I can't get a read" and "I'll explain later." Page 10 Summary- LYNCH NUREINS.

Page 11- Sim and Ecto go back and forth about not voting. (Sim can vote however his heart desires, just so you know) Nureins vs. Ythill round three, point goes to Ythill. Andy is useless in this game. Ythill makes a good point about Cass' "make a case against someone" request. habitang requests a No Lynch.

wait, what?

Seriously?

Also, what makes habit know there's a vig? Also, who's to assume that the vig would be stupid enough to random kill someone N1. (Most experienced vigs don't kill N1)
Pope is being replaced. By Tritch. nureins stops going after Ythill "after requests from the audience." (Your convictions must not have been very strong) Tritch tosses accusation on nhat and Cass. (But what about your predecessor and his cheerleader nureins?) Page 11 Summary- No lynch? Seriously? Bad form, habit, you've just moved next to nureins / Tritch on my scum meter. With nureins and Ythill getting so much attention, your request for a no lynch could easily be seen (by me) as an attempt to save one of them.

Page 12- Jahudo says "Any scum might have left the TPT wagon long ago." I don't like this, because you're implying that you absolutely must be town, having only now gotten around to leaving it. nhat says Tritch is engaging in OMGUS, (Um, no, but he is deflecting attention away from nureins) Matin's coming out. (of the game, not the closet) nureins votes Tritch. You see, I think this is an attempt to offset his earlier buddying up to TPT by distancing from Tritch. That's just my opinion though. Page 12 Summary- Game starting to slow down, my thoughts same as before. Habit / nureins / Tritch deserve lots of attention.

Page 13- nhat thinks Habit is suspicious. Habit asks for a do-over. (WRONG!) Defends Tritch. Nhat wants pressure on habit. (Sure, let's ignore nureins, still I think this vote is warranted) Sim agrees with nhat. Andy, too. (Jesus, man, if you're not gonna play, don't vote, it just makes things harder on me. Still, I'd have voted habit too) Jahudo votes habit too, citing how emotional he is. (Slow down, guys) Goat calls nureins a newb. (Yes, but if we give people that out, scum will get away with lots that they shouldn't) Page 13 Summary- You guys are letting the habit bandwagon pick up steam really fast. And yet nureins languished? For shame. Although I do get town reads on the people on this bandwagon. But still.

Page 14- Nureins doesn't know who the lurkers are (yeah right) Cass gives habit a helpful tip about not self voting. ("Thanks!" says habit as scum) Accuses Andy of lurking. (What? He's barely been playing all game) Cass starts coming under fire here, but personally I think you guys are getting distracted too easily. Page 14 summary: More nureins lynching plz.

HALFTIME!

*the band comes out and starts playing*

Now I'll go try and Catch 'Em All... errr. catch my breath, while I prepare to summarize my thoughts on the second half of the game.

[kuribo]

Both Darox and Kuribo replaced into this game? This has officially become the most hell-esque game of Mafia in the history of ever.



But honestly, looking forward to your thoughts. Here's to you two not gang-raping me in this game!

Why would I do that? So far (in this game) I get mostly town vibes from you. Now if you don't mind, I've just gotten the Cascade Badge from Misty. Errr, I mean, started the second half of my analysis. (Anal Leases)

[kuribo]

Previously, on 24.

[Page 3]

Jack Bauer: DAMMIT, Chloe, we are running out of time! I have to speak with the President, NOW.


Wait.

Previously, on Innocence Falls.

kuribo: DAMMIT, Chloe, we are running out of time! (not really) We have to find the scum, NOW.
--------

Page 15: Andy starts off by circling the WIFOM wagons. Pointless post, even more pointless is habit's vote against him. Habit says he can't get a read on Sim because... what? His posts are "within context?" (I think you mean, "In response," how can you not get a read just because of that?) Ythill shines some light on Jahudo, so it's not like the players have tunnel vision. nureins continues playing the progressive question game. (My question is X, and if your question is Y, then I also want to know Z.) STOP GIVING PEOPLE LIMITED OPTIONS FOR A RESPONSE. DO YOU STILL BEAT YOUR WIFE? Lightly defends Jahudo. Cass speculates that both Matin and Tritch could be scum. Well, of course they could, but so could you or anyone else playing. I don't like that statement. Andy says he doesn't have time to post today. (THANK YOU CAPTAIN ACTIVITY) nureins makes the comment about Ythill seeing ghosts. Ythill sees it as a threat, I see it as trying to minimize another bullet point ahead of time. Page 15 Summary--- Still think nureins is scummy, didn't want the spotlight back on him when questioned by Ythill. Not liking habitang, still, either. One statement from Cass as I pointed out struck me as odd.

Page 16: Goat makes a sincere attempt to show that Andy is lurking. Jahudo defends himself by saying he went after TPT and habitang. You guys realize that it's only a good thing for him to do that if they flip scum, right? And on Day 1, who knows who the scum are? (I'll give you a hint, they don't win with the town.) Anyway, Goat responds by saying that no, Jahudo really didn't go after TPT and habit. I don't like any of the discussion about Masons because role speculation doesn't help anyone pro-town. habitang wants to know why Jahudo voted TPT so late. (WTF? He can vote whenever he wants) Really not liking habitang right now, his posts reek of false scumhunting. Admits to being glad the heat's off him. (Why? Running out of defenses, are you, scum?) Page 16 summary: Whooo, go Ivysaur. I mean, habit looks pretty bad in alot of his posts here. Nureins seems to be dialing back the scummy behavior somewhat. (Not necessarily a good thing. And before anyone asks, I'll answer: It's not always a good thing because a dramatic shift in post / play style can indicate a desire for the town to interpret their actions in a certain way.)

Page 17: Ythill wants to know why Jah posted a case if the vote was just for pressure. (Good catch). Karne thinks nureins, Cass, and TPT are his biggest suspects. (I'm with you 66% of the way) Some back and forth between nureins and Ythill. Jah continues building a case against habit. (Not very hard at this point) nureins gives Jah a helpful tip, (Be careful of the words you use). nureins dismisses the case against habit. (How nice of one of my suspsects to do that for the other) Sim hates long posts. (Me too, PBPA not withstanding, but I replaced into a Ythill game, so I deserve this. ) Jahudo posts about Habit, as well. See, the case against him seems to be too strong to indicate that scum is just "reaching." Sim points out that nureins defends people who should be defending themselves. (THANK YOU, I hate when people do that, it stifles discussion.) Habit says he wants Jahudo and Andy lynched and the vig can do the other. (What vig? Is this a softclaim?) Page 17 summary: Nureins, habitang blah blah blah.

Page 18- nureins gets a town read on habit. (IN THE BIZARRO WORLD? Regardless of his alignment, you can't seriously think habit's posts are good scumhunting.) Nureins also says the "
The only scenario under which Im able to see your frustration is that you are scum and you would like to lynch an innocent I would defend..." I have quoted this verbatim because it's an insanely stupid statement and it gave my eyes AIDS. (THANKS! I REALLY USED TO LIKE MY EYES, YOU KNOW.) Nureins ow wants a Sim lynch. (Of course you do) Sirdan thinks habit is newbie town, nureins is town, Sim is scum. I think you're completely ass-backwards. But that's what I expect from TPT's replacement. Sim throws away the stupid statement I noted before. Kinda an angry post from Sim, but I've been in that position as town where I wanted to reach through my screen and choke people who made stupid arguments against me, so I feel for him. Nureins reads all sorts of stuff into this frustration. Andy is still posting. (:rolleyes:) Sirdan puts together a bit on goatrevolt. Karne sees TPT as frustrated town, and really only gets a bad vibe from nureins. Nureins deflects this as an "easy vote." (Seriously, it's page 18. It's been well over a month. HOW IS THIS GUY STILL ALIVE?) Nureins then actually has the balls to "simplify" another player's criticisms of goat. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, AND ALL THAT IS HOLY, STOP ANSWERING FOR OTHER PEOPLE. (actually, keep doing it, I want you to out your scumbuddies) Page 18 summary, I hate writing long posts.

Page 19- Back and forth between nureins and Sim, we go. Karne provides interesting perspective in 453. habit gives Karne a helpful tip about not accusing people of being a pair. (this much is true. You can't say "HAH! X IS Y'S SCUM PARTNER BECAUSE X LOOKS SCUMMY TO ME!" Then, if X turns out to be town, you've wasted alot of discussion, and Y can still be scum) Ythill and Jah still all up on each other. nhat not liking nureins defense of others. (Good for you, nhat, but show some cajones and stick a vote on) nureins continues to defend himself. (Not a scumtell, before anyone says anything stupid to me) Cass holy crap, accuses Karne of lying and bs scumpairing. (I hate when people use emotional words like "you're lying," or "that's an outright lie." It implies intent) More accusations of nureins defending others. Nureins dismisses this. (natch) Page 19 Summary: I'm so hungry, I could eat an octorock.

Page 20- Karne offers to allow nureins to post in Spanish (No thanks, I'd rather not babelfish) and defends himself for looking at the scumpair. Nureins asks Karne a bunch of questions. habit is suspicious of Andy. Ythill calls sirdan slippery (i can haz moar elaborashun plz?) And sirdan wants more elaboration, too. habit is being replaced. (ugh) Sim questions habit. (TOO LATE!) Cass says habit's posting has improved. (IN THE BIZARRO WORLD?) Cass votes Karne in blatant OMGUS, though no one will admmit it. Ythill and sirdan look like they're about to go a few rounds around the horn. Page 20 summary: Cass' behavior has become erratic. I don't like the vote against Karne. Still not liking nureins or habit.

Page 21- And pacman replaces habit. nhat accuses nureins of pretending to make discussion (True. Also, fearless prediction--- Nureins will respond to this post and probably accuse nhat of being scum) He does respond, but doesn't accuse nhat. Lots of pointless talk about Spanish. Pacman finds habit scummy in at least one post. (:rolleyes:) Goat doesn't like Sirdan's lack of a vote against him. Page 22 Summary- Mah boy, this peace is what all true warriors strive for.

Page 22- Sim points out something that I must have missed, and he's right. It's not pro-town to try and limit someone to "Yes" or "No." Ythill vs sirdan picks up some more steam. Ythill makes blanket statements, calling him scum. (I agree with Ythill, but this doesn't help) Jesus on a cracker you people write long posts. Ythill says there's nothing anti-town about badgering people. (You can make scum crack, that way, you know) sirdan votes Ythill (finally, we get to that) Nureins is still refuting dan's case against Goat. Ythill accuses sirdan of not defending himself. (True, to a degree) Page 23 Analysis--- Cass, nureins, sirdan. Mostly I don't like sirdan's posts because I thought TPT was scummy.

Page 23- Sim sums up nureins posting style. (You left out, "Moves on to another person" at the end.) Jah rightly points out that Ythill has been using aggressive words all along. (Nureins should know this, because it was against HIM) Nureins disagrees (oh for Christs sake) Nureins says that Ythill shoulda went after Jah the same way (Why, if he didn't find Jah as scummy as you or sirdan?) pacman jumps to nurein's defense (of course). Cass calls sirdan a "frustrated townie." Is that code for "scum?" Calls Ythill scummy or tunnel-visioned. (Ummm, he's posted valid cases on at least three different players and done a good bit of scum hunting all along) Defends nureins' posts against Sim. Horribly misplaced and bizarre FOS on Sim from pacman. Goebels goebels goebels. I would lynch nureins just so I never have to read that word again. (I kid. I would lynch nureins for lots of reasons) Looooooooooooooooooooooong back and forth between sirdan and Ythill makes my eyes bleed. Ecto (HI NICE OF YOU TO JOIN US. CARE TO PLAY A GAME OF MAFIA WITH US?!) votes nureins. Page 23 Sumamary- If you don't know who I suspect right now, you haven't been paying attention.

Page 24- Karne agrees with Sim about nureins posts. Andy is still here. nhat votes Ythill for calling people scum. nhat thinks nureins' posts are unnecessarily wordy. (Yep) Nureins sums up his case on sirdan. (Except it's not really YOUR case, is it?) pacman slightly FOS' Karne and Sim for a completely stupid reason. Sim doesn't even know what a slight FOS is. (It's when you slice off your Finger of Suspicion and throw half of it at them) Goat doesn't like Ythill's calling other people scum. Cass thinks sirdan is town, Ythill is scum. AND WANTS A KARNE LYNCH. (Cass, are you often in the habit of PLAYING MAFIA WHILE HIGH?) Pacman explains the slight FOS. Ythill compares himself to TSQ, Oman, and vollkan. He's perfectly happy to be in the limelight. (Ythill also probably knows that I tend to be fairly aggressive. Errr, extremely aggressive, at times) Page 24 summary- Cass looking worse and worse. Still not liking nureins, pacman, or sirdan. Squadala!

Page 25- Cass puts together a terrible case against Ythill. Thinks sirdan may be frustrated town. (Stop falling back on giving people the excuse of being frustrated town. Do you know how many scum get away because people assume that?) Words, words words. Pacman agrees with Sirdan. (try posting your own thoughts once in awhile) Ythill wants more people on the sirdan wagon. Ugh, both Ythill and sirdan accuse the other of "lying." God, I hate that. nureins suspects sirdan and Simenon. Cass wants Karne lynched for some bizarre reason. Sirdan (surprise) wants Ythill lynched. Thinks Jah may be scum. (what) Doesn't think pacman is scum (huh?) Page 25 summary- Did nureins even post? Anyway, not liking pacman, sirdan, or Cass either.

Page 26- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


NUREINS


SERIOUSLY


KNOCK IT OFF ABOUT GOEBELS


NO ONE LIVING OR DEAD


EVER


CARED


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA IT MAKES ME WANT TO KILL MYSELF AND EVERYONE AROUND ME IN AN ORGY OF BLOOD AND FIRE.


but I digress. I don't like that Ythill's aggression is seen as a scumtell. Andy wants to be replaced. (I saw that coming) Goat is supsicious of lots and lots of people. Sirdan metas Ythill and says he doesn't badger people. (odd to say, since sirdan cites Mini 539. I was there. Ythill was one of the reasons that NorthJayHawk left the site forever. Also, Jayhawk was scum. He didn't use the "obvscum" strategy, but Ythill did go after Jayhawk aggressively.) Sim thinks nureins is town, wants pacman lynched, promises a case on sirdan. Cass wants a list of who people think are scum or town. (UM, NO) Page 26 Summary- I think Ythill is getting frustrated that we're almost 30 pages in and still on Day 1. I don't think this makes him scum. Nureins is looking a

little[/b] better, but maybe I'm an idiot. Cass needs more attention. My lynch at this point would be pacman. Ecto wants someone dead. (Agreed) Ythill puts together a list of who suspects who. Cass wants the day over. (I think it matters WHO we lynch, just so you know) Pacman says a long day 1 means lots of info. (Yes, but an OVERLY LONG Day 1 also means bandwagons lose steam, people become apathetic, and people forget what happened 20 pages ago) Ecto votes pacman for his misguided statement. I don't like Ythill's appeals to emotion. (When I flip town...) nhat says he has other games to play. (YEAH, YOU DO, DON'T YOU?) Page 26 summary- Pacman should swing.

Page 28- Goat would rather see Ythill lynched than pacman. (Are you blind or just scum?) Cass STILL wants a Karne lynch. (Get it through your head, no one else wants to lynch him, and now lynching an empty chair is even less likely) Says she will vote either pacman or Ythill if that's what "we" agree on. (know what would help us agree? YOU VOTING. DON'T JUST PARROT THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS. Which one do YOU want lynched?) nureins helpfully interprets everyone's position. (don't do that) kuribo replaces in. (how I loathe that guy). Kuribo promises to re-read. Page 28 Summary- Don't worry Zelda, the Triforce of Wisdom has promised that the King will safely return.

Page 29- kuribo writes a long post. God, that guy's annoying. Then he writes another one? Ugh.

But, seriously,

Unvote

if necessary,

Vote: pacman

[kuribo]

After that, I guess all your vision of me is clearly biased because you think I backed from siding with tpt, and so on...

Great work anyway.

Do you really think I'm dumb enough to have formed an opinion on you by Page 2? And then based my entire analysis on that? Way to minimize everything I laid out. (You fail)

I never helped pope at all. Might you explain what you meant with that ?

This post very quickly served to discredit Matin's concerns about TPT:

I saw it that way before TPT, I also want a bandwagon !!
Now seriously, after all the posts about the topic, I see two things in Matin's words:

1) that he felt Jahudo stole his vote for ectomancer. This part is what Matin used as any other reason he could use to make a "joke" vote on jahudo. And this is the part that Goatrevolt and Jahudo pointed out. I do not find this part very relevant, as I take Matin's way of voting as any joking way.

2) that he "changed" his mind from voting when jahudo stole the vote. I pointed out this question and later TPT insisted. In my view, not a very serious issue, so I just raised a question delicately to Matin in order to see his answer. I agree that he shouldnt be worried about putting a second vote on someone, and that hidding in the forest is not a good help for us...we do not need townies hidding if they are townies...now I want more words from Matin-jahudo-TPT-Goatrevolt-nhat to clarify my mind...

Also, Post 65 to me read, "Awww, there there, honey, nobody is attacking you, I'll make the bad men go away, it's okay. Shhhh. It's okay. I've got you... Shhhh, yes, let it pour, I'll protect you. There there."

[kuribo]

No particular reason. Might as well have been your name there, I didn't look back at Kuribo's post, but wnet from memory. My point was how something can be scummy for me, but not at all for others. (And no, I do not find this scummy in the least, which is why it doesn't seem so important to me who exactly said it.) Didn't mean to ignore you, the point wasn't about you or Ythill. I question why I got accused, not why you two didn't.

It's called, "One of you has been acting scummy in my mind, and the other has not." Also, tossed in with a bit of "One of you seems to be genuinely scumhunting, the other just wants a lynch."

I also fail to see what made you prefer Pacman suddenly, even over scum-extreme-please-lynch-him-now Nuriens.

Because lately he's the scummier of the two. You see, we don't have to catch ALL of the scum on Day 1. It isn't like I said, "Yeah, let's lynch Pacman, Nureins is completely town." On the contrary, I'm going to be watching nureins like a hawk. But I don't like alot of pacman's reactions in the last several pages of my read. For the record, I don't like nureins' attempts to streamline the game to his liking in the time just before I joined.

Please address my defense of pacman. If it's horribly wrong and you can show me how, maybe I'll vote with you, but only because I've got a good read on you.

I feel like alot of your defense in regards to pacman relies on the assumption that habit was a village idiot. As you well know, (especially with it being on this very page) newbishness is a null-tell because scum can be stupid, too. If you let people avoid lynch by way of "being the village idiot," you open the door for any number of terrible plays, and hurt the town in the process. Although I understand you defended pacman at great risk to yourself, Ythill, I think that alot of it makes assumptions that the reader shares your view of some of his actions. (ie, things that you don't find scummy, but some of the rest of us do)

[kuribo]

I'm at L-3.

.......................................

And I might as well not to have one of them. I don't want to be trapped into a misread from my own...

Just for the record, I read L-3 (which isn't even close to a lynching majority) as a statement from someone who's getting worried.

Also, I don't like not wanting to post your opinion for fear of being trapped.

[kuribo]

But I don't like alot of pacman's reactions in the last several pages of my read.

Could you summarize this case briefly? Maybe I just lost your points in the rhetoric of your catch-up WOWs, but I don't recall a lot of evidence being raised.

Its the impression that I got from him, that in the last few pages, once pressure was being applied to him, he started to get worried. I can go back and look through this again if you'd like, but it'll have to wait a bit.

[kuribo]

pacman, that has to be the most ridiculous statement (what you said to Darox about why he voted you) this year that didn't come from a McCain spokesman.

[kuribo]

After 31 pages, and we're still stuck on Day 1, and at a point where almost EVERY SINGLE PLAYER has been analyzed at some point or another, HOW MUCH MORE FREAKING DISCUSSION DO YOU GUYS NEED? You guys have been on Day 1 for nearly TWO MONTHS.

[kuribo]

I've no idea qwhat the vote count is anymore, but I'm pretty sure no one's at L-1

Far away from L-1 (if i remember well, it is L-3).

The good news I guess is that your voting movement "reduces" the list to 3 since given my understanding of the game, Goat is going to move to Ythill.

For my voting patterns, I could move to pacman if I perceive that Ythill is in risk, (or more likely, as a final movement if it is clear nobody else can be lynched). I perceive him as a noisy signal, and therefore Ill not doubt to do it...

If everyone in this town played like this and just followed the leader, we'd be stretching Day 1 out to over 30 pages.


O WAIT

[kuribo]

The more nureins agrees with Ythill's defense of pacman, the less I agree with it.

I don't have a read on your actions but I'd like to know if your suspicion on nureins/Cass vs. Simenon can tell us anything new that hasn't been said or unsaid before.

THIRTY TWO FREAKING PAGES FOR ONE DAY. EVERYTHING HAS BEEN SAID, UNSAID, AND RE-SAID A DOZEN TIMES.

[kuribo]

I also don't like nureins' buddying up:

And if Ythill is seriously bandwagoned, I am going to write a similar defense for him, since I think he is MOST LIKELY townie. I find very natural and clarifying that this can be done precisely by me, the one to whom he directed his first aggressive attack

Sounds to me like you're saying, "Look, I'll defend Ythill even though he suspected me, that totally means I can't possibly be scum!"

[kuribo]

Oh, and I once lost a game because I assumed Ythill was town. Just so you know.

[kuribo]

Oh, and I once lost a game because I assumed Ythill was town. Just so you know.

I havent lost any game because I havent finished any. But I could add, in an imaginary way:

"I once lost a game because I didnt notice how two persons shared a false language".

Please, read my post in response to Sirdan. I havent assumed anything...

I didn't say you're assuming Ythill to be town, I'm more putting it out as a general warning that he comes across as pro-town even when he's scum. He's a good player on both sides of the field.

[kuribo]

yes yes, I am completely sure that you were just sending a message to all humankind about your bad skills as a player, stating that you lost a game because you assumed something, and then it is good for us to know that you assume things which are not truth...

Doesn't make the case I posted against you any less valid.

Also, the reason I assumed he was town then was because his play as town was good.

It's not like I said to myself, "hmmm, nureins might be scum, how can I build a case against him?" On the contrary, your behavior disturbed me as I read through the game. The only reason I'm voting pacman now instead of you is because his behavior has been even more disturbing.

[kuribo]

Stop trying to twist my words. What support of sirdan? Just because I'm not voting him doesn't mean I think he's town. If anything I've found TPT to be scummy, and I didn't like some of sirdan's statements about you being town.

You guys were talking about Ythill and assumptions, and I pointed something out based on experience. I didn't say YOU specifically were assuming anything.

My post isn't connected to anyone's but my own--- it is simply a response to the point of conversation.

[kuribo]

And I didnt consider your "case" on me scummy at all. Simply wrong.

Also, I didn't say you said the case on you was scummy--- I said you're trying to minimalize it with your sarcastic post about how I make assumptions and lose games. (which isn't true either, because I'm developing into quite a scum hunter)

[kuribo]

Quit bickering you two.

No, I won't, because I don't like nurein's statements that I'm supporting sirdan, when I'm not.

If I never supported sirdan, I can't very well be backtracking, now can I?

[kuribo]

How do you define "bickering"?

I view the topic of their discussion as being very relevant.

Both of them making certain assumptions (or assuming the other did), and then jumping on the other when they didn't examine the world through their assumption skewed view of the world. That's bickering.

Uh, no, I took issue with the fact that nureins tried to paint me in favor of someone, when I clearly haven't been. Even further that he based it on an innocuous statement regarding my meta of Ythill. (That he is a dangerous player when scum)

[kuribo]

People are voting, Cass. Except pacman which, considering the circumstances, is another suggestion of his alignment. With the deadline in place, scum pacman should already be voting for sirdan.

Scum pacman could be scum sirdan's partner, though, and that could be why A) Scum pacman isn't voting, and B) scum sirdan is clinging to a lost cause instead of voting Scum pacman.

Or, maybe Scum pacman doesn't want to touch Townie Sirdan's wagon with a ten foot pole because he knows the outcome. Or maybe Scum sirdan is doing likewise with Townie pacman's wagon.

Or, maybe the next part is, "Unless that's what they WANT us to think," and everything after that is WIFOM.

I don't think you've considered every possibility here.

[kuribo]

Or, maybe Scum pacman doesn't want to touch Townie Sirdan's wagon with a ten foot pole because he knows the outcome. Or maybe Scum sirdan is doing likewise with Townie pacman's wagon.

Or, maybe the next part is, "Unless that's what they WANT us to think," and everything after that is WIFOM.

What I meant is that maybe that WANT us to think they're avoiding a wagon. IE, if one were town, and the other scum, maybe the scum knows that the other guy will come up town and he can later say, "But, I wasn't on the bandwagon!"

[kuribo]

What I meant is that maybe that WANT us to think they're avoiding a wagon. IE, if one were town, and the other scum, maybe the scum knows that the other guy will come up town and he can later say, "But, I wasn't on the bandwagon!"

As far as I understand it, this is what ythill thinks that sirdan is doing by avoiding to vote pacman. I am lost because I thought this was not scummy at all...

In any case, pacman is not voting either, so this argument applies to both of them and then we have to lynch according to previous attitudes...you two are really making things even more complicated with such subtle analysis...

Yes, but what I was saying is that any criticism of sirdan not voting pacman should also spill onto pacman for not voting at all.

[kuribo]

That's odd. Rather than cling to a lost cause, most townies would probably pick the scummiest of the top candidates at this juncture so as to best avoid a mislynch. Oh wait... that would be you...

Define a mislynch. For me, a mislynch would be either a) someone not you or in my list of suspects) or b) a No-lynch. Since b) is worse than a), I'd be willing to do a) over b). But you, Ythill, are most likely scum, so obviously prefer to keep my vote on you.
Absolutely horrible. My last post is not a good indication of my alignment, same for pacman. Another scumtell for Ythill.

Town, can you really allow yourself to get lead by someone like this? He's just trying to manipulate you. Come on. 'do it...you know you want to do it'. This is just ridiculous. This is just an appeal to emotion.

And no, don't accuse me of hypocrisy here, I did not do the same as you did.[/quote]

A "mislynch," is when a townie gets lynched.

And statements like "you're allowing yourselves to get led by someone like this," "He's manipulating you," and "This is ridiculous." Do you know what that's called? Yep. An appeal to emotion. Because you're expecting people to say, "BY GOD HE'S RIGHT!" and then turn on Ythill.

[kuribo]

No, he's not saying, "We need to hurry up and get the lynch," he's saying, that the most pro-town choice of action would be to X.

The chances of us mislynching AREN'T greater if we lynch pacman--- Both he and you have been far scummier than Ythill in about 90% of the towns' minds: We actually have a GREATER chance of a mislynch if we lynch someone that seems less scummy.

[kuribo]

I can't let this blatant role fishing slide. On the off chance that both are pro-town power roles, then that's two-for-one for scum. One would be sufficient, but two is just being greedy.

FoS - Simenon

I know it's been a long time coming, but I have the next two days off and will have a very close look at the two suspects.

Yes, let's lynch them without asking for a claim. BRILLIANT.


You better step up your posting on Day 2, nhat.

[kuribo]

3 days before the deadline, and knowing that a claim will cause a lot of discussion, I think it would be better for me to claim as soon as possible.

Ythill, chapeau. You've successfully pressured a pro-town power role into claiming. Your strategy, which has had its successes when played by a town role, works very well as scum too. And if you are in fact town (probably not), then this proves that you should find a different play style, since when you are wrong (and you will be wrong again in the future, probably even more than that you'll be right) there's no way back and it hurts the town incredibly.

I'm the doctor.

Now, I'd be absolutely delighted when someone dares to counterclaim, since that gives us Ythill's partner.

Even if it's true, your argument fails because:

A) You haven't been acting like a doctor, or even a townie, thus Ythill would have no reason for suspecting you to be a doctor.

B) Even if Ythill is scum (or town) he has absolutely no way for CERTAIN of knowing if you were a power role.

So, thus, "Ythill is scum because he outted a power role," is a ridiculous argument.

[kuribo]

Also Id never expect Kuribo to attack so hard to sirdan. So Im really lost. I promise to come with a more serious opinion in a day...

You call that an attack?

I'll show you an attack tomorrow, scum.

[kuribo]

No, Ythill is not scum because he outed a power role. Ythill is scum (I am not going to repeat why again) and he outed a power role. Stop misunderstanding my posts.

Okay, I see what you were saying, now. Sorry for the misconception.

[kuribo]

Also Id never expect Kuribo to attack so hard to sirdan. So Im really lost. I promise to come with a more serious opinion in a day...

You call that an attack?

I'll show you an attack tomorrow, scum.

attack ?
Im not attackin you. I didnt consider the person you replaced scummy and I dont consider you either. Your attack on sirdan was strong. And if you attack him so strongly and you are "defending" him before the claim, this suggests to me that his doctor claim was a fake. So in my process of thoughts:

1. I read sirdan's words protecting himself to future claims - scummy
2. I start to accept he has an emotional rush - town (and doc)
3. The attack of someone who defends him hits me in the other direction - scummy...

As a consequence, Im totally lost. This is what i said...

No, genius, I didn't say you were attacking me.

I said, if you call what I did to sirdan an attack, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[kuribo]

Also, nureins, why the hesitation in the unvote? You're still voting a claimed doctor. For shame.

[kuribo]

Yeah, after these last few pages, I find it less and less likely that Pacman is scum. I have some doubt about Sirdan, but he is low on my suspect list. ythill looks scummy too. But by far the scummiest, confirming all my earlier suspicions, is Darox.

Unvote
Vote: Darox

After his recent line of posting, I just can't believe he is town.

Do you seriously think you're going to swing one of these wagons completely off track and onto Darox in just three days?

[kuribo]

Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.

Just saying.

With 12 players, I was assuming that this game most probably have (at least) one. But I take it. So Ill listen to most people and then if no clear conviction most probably ill unvote.

Kuribo is not gonna be happy probably, as my vote would move to darox...

Of course it would, pacman is your partner.

[kuribo]

Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.

Just saying.

Sure they do, but:

A) in a closed setup, they run the risk that there IS a doctor

B) I know you didn't say we should lynch a claimed doctor, so don't read that into this statement, but: There's no point in lynching a claimed doc on day one unless there's a counter-claim. (which you well know) (I'm putting this statement here more for nureins who hasn't unvoted)

[kuribo]

Nureins, you unvote a not counterclaimed power role.

FoS Nureins

way to repeat my argument against him.

(the post I've quoted you just now is pointless and doesn't help your cause one bit)

[kuribo]

Also, nureins, why the hesitation in the unvote? You're still voting a claimed doctor. For shame.

Mainly because I never faced such a situation. He might be claiming doctor to protect himself...I said "ready to unvote". After hearing some other opinions and especially after seeing none else counterclaims, Ill probably unvote. He is at L-3, do you really think my unvote some hours before or later is gonna affect the result ?

Yes. Because we have 3 days to come to a consensus and it doesn't look like sirdan should be the play.

[kuribo]

So the question from here, becomes: Is sirdan scummy enough to lynch a claimed doctor?

If the mafia has a roleblocker, and he's a doc, he essentially becomes a townie, because he has no night power. If they don't, then he'll likely be the NK. The problem lies in that we give them a free kill if he's telling the truth: The lynch of one townie (him, the useless doc) and whoever they kill tonight.

From there, the question leads to, "Is sirdan the only viable candidate for a lynch?" And, at least to me, the answer is, "No."

[kuribo]

Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.

Just saying.

Sure they do, but:

A) in a closed setup, they run the risk that there IS a doctor

Fake claiming Doctor gives you two advantages
1. If there is no other doctor, you get to fakeclaim a valuable but unprovable role. That is an ideal situation for a scum.
2. If there is a doctor, that doctor dies the next night, barring roleblocking.

B) I know you didn't say we should lynch a claimed doctor, so don't read that into this statement, but: There's no point in lynching a claimed doc on day one unless there's a counter-claim. (which you well know) (I'm putting this statement here more for nureins who hasn't unvoted)

It's certainly better than nothing. But we shouldn't put as much value on it as we would any other power role, for the reasons above.

And personally, I think if the doctor ISN'T sirdan, and we DO have one, he should keep his mouth shut while the situation sorts out. Agree? Disagree?

[kuribo]

About my partner, I thought it was Cass. Ah, Cass also unvoted Pacman, I know your next stupid argument...

Where did I say that? Or did you see that in your role PM?

[kuribo]

Just because I think you're scum doesn't mean I agree with what others have said about Cass being your scum partner. (Although I have expressed concern over some of her actions)

[kuribo]

And personally, I think if the doctor ISN'T sirdan, and we DO have one, he should keep his mouth shut while the situation sorts out. Agree? Disagree?

haha, really ? so,

1. You think a FOS on me is justified because I didnt IMMEDIATELY unvoted a non counterclaimed doc.

2. You want no counterclaim to appear.

How can be a doc claim counterclaimed if you cheer up the counterclaimer not to counterclaim...I am laughing a lot now...do u want me to believe there is an urgency in your desires to unvote sirdan and suggest no counterclaim to be done ?

Im not understanding you at all, but all this sounds suspicious to me.

I mantain my view. Ill listen opinions and in one day or so if no counterclaim Ill probably unvote and vote darox (and in case a vote is needed to avoid a no-lynch, ill vote pacman)

Where did I justify the FOS? In fact, if I recall, I called the entire post that contained it "Pointless."

What I SAID was that there is no point in you continuing to vote for sirdan, since his lynch at this time will accomplish absolutely nothing for the time being.

Also, you're actively trying to shift focus onto Darox with a deadline three days away: knowing full well that 3 days is hardly any time at all for a brand new bandwagon to pick up.

[kuribo]

And now, I stop bickering. Come back in day 2 to attack me as much as you want.

[kuribo]

I can dig the Darox wagon, everyone on board.
What are we lynching him for again?

My opinion on pacman hasn't changed.

Posting more when I'm not using a terribad mac.

Because scum don't wanna pile on pacman's bandwagon so they're quicklynching you.


And yes, it's a quicklynch with 3 votes in just one page. Big Scumpoints to the latest to hop aboard, pacscum.

[kuribo]

Yeah, after these last few pages, I find it less and less likely that Pacman is scum. I have some doubt about Sirdan, but he is low on my suspect list. ythill looks scummy too. But by far the scummiest, confirming all my earlier suspicions, is Darox.

Unvote
Vote: Darox

After his recent line of posting, I just can't believe he is town.

Do you seriously think you're going to swing one of these wagons completely off track and onto Darox in just three days?

No. I think he is scum. I seriously don't see why you are so attached to your false dilemma. Or are you just attached to Darox? You do seem awfuly worried about losing him:

Also, you're actively trying to shift focus onto Darox with a deadline three days away: knowing full well that 3 days is hardly any time at all for a brand new bandwagon to pick up.

Because scum don't wanna pile on pacman's bandwagon so they're quicklynching you.

Have you considered we may be right about his alignment? In that case this 'brand new' (no it isn't) bandwagon would be a really good thing.
I'm not going to vote Sirdan, for obvious reasons. I'm not going to vote Pacman, because I don't think he's scum. I'm trying to lynch scum, is that ok with you?

FoS: Kuribo

- Nuriens waiting for counterclaim is somewhat disturbing.
- Kuribo telling him to unvote unless counterclaim, but also asking for no counterclaim strikes me as dishonest.

Have I considered it? Of course, I considered it.

I banged my head on the desk repeatedly until I became as retarded as this bandwagon, and considered it.

Then I realized that the scum is pushing this bandwagon.

[kuribo]

What I don't understand is how you want to run Darox up the flagpole, and you guys are perfectly willing to let scummy behavior from pacman and nureins slide.

[kuribo]

This is the absolute most retarded bandwagon ever. Seriously.

When he comes up town, (and he will because I don't doubt that the scum are already on his wagon with him at L-1) alot of you are going to have explaining to do.

Then, we should lynch pacman or nureins BECAUSE ALL OF THE EVIDENCE POINTS TO THEM BEING SCUM.

[kuribo]

I think that the fact that the pacman bandwagon (and maybe even the sirdan bandwagon) stalled for so long is more indicative of his alignment than almost anything else.

You guys are willing to pile votes onto Darox, but not onto pacman? Pacman who's been acting scummy constantly? Sheesh.

[kuribo]

And before nureins or his scum partners come along and twist my words, I'm not saying that Darox doesn't deserve attention, what I AM saying is that he's certainly not the best lynch for today, and it appalls me that this thing has picked up speed so quickly.

Cass, you've been popping in and out lately, but damned if that stopped you from piling on the bandwagon and FOS'ing me for an absolutely ludicrous reason.

[kuribo]

Yeah, after these last few pages, I find it less and less likely that Pacman is scum. I have some doubt about Sirdan, but he is low on my suspect list. ythill looks scummy too. But by far the scummiest, confirming all my earlier suspicions, is Darox.

Unvote
Vote: Darox

After his recent line of posting, I just can't believe he is town.

Do you seriously think you're going to swing one of these wagons completely off track and onto Darox in just three days?

No. I think he is scum. I seriously don't see why you are so attached to your false dilemma. Or are you just attached to Darox? You do seem awfuly worried about losing him:

Also, you're actively trying to shift focus onto Darox with a deadline three days away: knowing full well that 3 days is hardly any time at all for a brand new bandwagon to pick up.

Because scum don't wanna pile on pacman's bandwagon so they're quicklynching you.

Have you considered we may be right about his alignment? In that case this 'brand new' (no it isn't) bandwagon would be a really good thing.
I'm not going to vote Sirdan, for obvious reasons. I'm not going to vote Pacman, because I don't think he's scum. I'm trying to lynch scum, is that ok with you?

FoS: Kuribo

- Nuriens waiting for counterclaim is somewhat disturbing.
- Kuribo telling him to unvote unless counterclaim, but also asking for no counterclaim strikes me as dishonest.

And no, I'm not worried about losing him, I'm worried that the town is acting like a bunch of retards, lynching someone who--- at best--- is hard to get a read on right now, when there are far scummier people to go after.

[kuribo]

@ecto: Sorry, forgot to mention that I died in newbie 636 one hour ago, and now you can see what I was there, and how I played there, which is essentially very similar to how Im playing here...(which says nothing good about my learning skills )

Not a good excuse for scummy behavior.

[kuribo]

It's also shit to meta someone who is acutely aware of their meta enough to use it to try and excuse bad behavior.

"Of course, I look scummy, I always look scummy!" This carries no weight, because sometimes the person saying it is just scum.

[kuribo]

Not a good excuse for scummy behavior.

It was not a excuse. It was an explanation for Ecto that I saved until the moment in which it was verifiable. Now he can go to this game, see my behavior there and compare it with what he called "buddying"...

To Ythill's "case" on me, I answered many times.

You did a pbpa analysis, if you want to come with a case on me, please come...IMO, your case is flawed by reference dependence bias. The view that you conformed in the beginning of the game was very wrong and IMO, it contaminated your reading on me. But you are welcome to come back with your main points on me to discuss. You can avoid a post in which you add "ill do, scum", or you insert an icon, as we have been asked not to bicker around...so please postpone it and come with it...

No, I formed that opinion through rereading the game, I didn't start off the reread saying, "nureins is scum."

[kuribo]

Kuribo, meet deadline

in two days

. You have experience with this site. You know good and well that 2 days is barely enough time to get a lynch. You also know good and well that a no lynch is not an option for us. You came into this game ranting about the length of day 1, yet now that a deadline is approaching, you are trying to stall. Wassup?

On your comments:

#1 - You are ignoring the last 38 pages in a rather large way. This wagon didn't rise 'suddenly'.
#2 - Continuing to say that Pacman is far more scummy without elaborating on it at this point is completely useless. What are you waiting for? The deadline?

Personally, I am far more interested in the people on Pacman's wagon than Darox's. Clearly there is a stalled push on that wagon. It looks to me like a scum driven wagon that failed to convince the town of its validity. You'll notice that I am lynching one of those 4.

Are you kidding me? The speed of Darox's wagon is more indicative of scum trying to jump on, and the stalling of pacman's wagon even less so.

[kuribo]

Kuribo, meet deadline

in two days

. You have experience with this site. You know good and well that 2 days is barely enough time to get a lynch.

Also, that is ordinarily the case, but as you can see, everyone was perfectly willing in the last page to throw their votes on Darox instead of pacman. It reeks of people protecting pacman.

[kuribo]

Kuribo: What things have you seen from pacman that are exclusive to his own playing and not habitangs? Also my offer to debate habitang is still there. If you think I incorrectly labeled him as town after all that attacking him and defending against Ythill, then I'd like to debate that too.

I'm not going to ignore someone whose predecessor was scummy just because people think he looks more pro-town. It would be ridiculous to say that I should ignore habitang's scummy behavior. Further, I've said before why I don't like pacman's reactions.

I also don't like the early "vanilla townie" claim that he made at L-3. He was panicking, as I've pointed out before.

[kuribo]

It's also shit to meta someone who is acutely aware of their meta enough to use it to try and excuse bad behavior.

"Of course, I look scummy, I always look scummy!" This carries no weight, because sometimes the person saying it is just scum.

This is a generalization.
I used meta to make precisions over two points.

1. "buddying". Ecto can read my first post in the game and conform a more valuable view of myself.

2. fake-claims. Cass can see how my last lynch was that of a fake-doc-claimer and understand better why I was careful.

Just that. Im not saying anything about how much scummy i look or not and Im not escaping any wagon, as there is none over me...

I addressed all the questions formulated over me. The fact that this newbie game ended up for me 1 hour ago allowed me to give a couple of precise examples of two moments of my play that, given how I see the reactions, seem quite crucial for experienced players...

But since YOU are the one pointing out YOUR OWN META, I am free to disregard it as manipulation if I so choose. (PS, I do)

[kuribo]

You're assuming that my opinion of you as scum is built upon the "defense of TPT" as its foundation, and that if you toss it aside, the entire building collapses.


Come here, I'll tell you a secret.


closer.



cloooooooooooser....



cloooooooooooooooooooooooserrrrrrrrrr...





IT'S NOT!

[kuribo]

Kuribo, meet deadline

in two days

. You have experience with this site. You know good and well that 2 days is barely enough time to get a lynch.

Also, that is ordinarily the case, but as you can see, everyone was perfectly willing in the last page to throw their votes on Darox instead of pacman. It reeks of people protecting pacman.

One lynch at a time. It doesn't look to me as though town sentiment is on your side at this time, and unfortunately, that's all the time we have. Your extreme protest on this matter is noted. Let's continue on the not-yet-deadlined Day 2 shall we?

So, basically, you're saying, "Well, we gotta have a lynch," (which is true), "So I may as well throw my vote on the top vote-getter?"

[kuribo]

I went back and looked and I didn't see or remember a claim from either Darox or Pacman. Both of them need to claim ASAP, rolefishing be damned.

Pacman claimed vanilla townie at L-3.

[kuribo]

I will claim right now, given the fact that I am having problems with my internet...

Seriously. I'm typing this on an awful computer in an internet cafe.


I'm a townie.
sirdan's claim hadn't been counterclaimed. I don't know what to say... but let's say that I will believe him (during now; I will keep an eye on him...)
Darox really needs to post something here. Or a replacement.
Deadline in three days... well, if I'm unable to post again, then I will

Vote: Darox

. I've stated my reasons before (I forgot where) Anyways, I will try to get some access, and I hope the problem is fixed soon

[kuribo]

Oh!

Now I get it.
Now I understand what the case on me is.

I can't believe I've been so blind.

It's because I'm a

mean person

, isn't it?
Am I right?

I guess that means I'll be the lynch for tomorrow?

Do you think I'm on the right track with nureins?

[kuribo]

the only thing worse than playing with kuribo is playing with him when he's right


Darox was town, pacman was scum, and you're all retarded for lynching a lurker over obvscum.

[kuribo]

I guess that means I'll be the lynch for tomorrow?

It seems to me that Darox also convinced you of his scumness...we, the retarded open you the doors of our house.

Then why wasn't I voting him? In fact, if I recall correctly, as recently as ONE FREAKING PAGE AGO, I was being derided because I refused to lynch Darox over pacman. And you call that convincing me of his scumminess?

But we are in day 2. If you want to start with your cases, you are welcome.
And I suppose you will enjoy with me for some time (given your attitude, for the whole of day 2 i guess). Anyway, while I re-consider the situation and formulate my own questions, I can enjoy your majesty of the perfect scumhunting..

Are you claiming scum, because if you'll recall you're my other suspect. If my scumhunting is so perfect, that makes you scum too, you see.

Anyway, this is just more of the same for nureins.

Vote: nureins

Can we please lynch scum this time, guys?

[kuribo]

Hey, nureins, while I'm at it, I didn't like the timing of your vote (or nhat's vote) on page 37 against Darox.

You both waited for Ectomancer to jump in, and it seems to me that L-2 is a mighty fine place for a scum to sneak a vote in, especially when his buddy (pacman) had already been on the wagon for quite awhile.

Oh, hey, which reminds me, Cass, your FOS against me for "protecting" Darox looks even worse on you now, just so you know.

[kuribo]

My final post to Darox was pointing out that if he's being lynched for being aggressive, that means I may be next.

I wanted an opinion on you because I thought Darox to be town and I wanted a statement on record. It wasn't that I was doubting Darox's towniness--- the opposite. I wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one that thought YOU were scummy.

Also, while I'm of the school of thought that analyzing the Night Kill is fairly useless, we're also not blind: Obviously the only person that died last night was scum. Now, it's entirely possible that the mafia offed him themselves, but come on. What last night's events DO, however, is cast doubt on sirdan's doc claim. I would say maybe he was targetted by doc protection, but what are the odds that we have two docs?

Anyway, again, if sirdan is not the doc, I don't think it's in our best interest for the real doc to step forward. He clearly knows what he's doing.

[kuribo]

So essentially I announced my vote at L-5 (and voted at L-4, but maybe you wanted me to say "hey, ecto has voted darox, this has completely changed the situation as to vote for a less scummy !!!" Now read the game as you want. It is clear to me how biased you are...

That you behave as a sheriff and announce to Cass how awful is her fos on you is to me another good example...

Of course the FOS is awful, if I don't point that out, I'm allowing scummy behavior to slide.

[kuribo]

Look, Kuribo, I can still not see what Darox did to convince anyone he was town. He was not so much a lurker as a village idiot - and he wasn't even trying. He definitely wasn't lynched for being 'aggressive', that was his own emotional outburst which seemed pretty disconnected to reality to me... I'm also pretty sure that Jahudo & me are both town, and that the wagon wasn't (strongly) scum-driven. I agree with the earlier poster who thinks that scum jumped on last minute (or perhaps not at all?).

This makes me on the one hand more convinced that Sirdan is town (with al the people pushing the false dilemma), but on the other hand the fact that he survived as a claimed doc is very suspicious. I definitely agree that a real doc should not counterclaim.

No, you're right, he wasn't lynched for being aggressive, he was lynched because the town took their eyes off the prize while scum took the focus off one of their own.

It was never about what Darox did to convince people he was town--- it was that pacman was always the better lynch. Given that pacman turned out to be newb scum as I said, I think it's worth going back and reading his interactions with others, since newb scum are often clumsy in their interactions.

[kuribo]

and that the wagon wasn't (strongly) scum-driven. I agree with the earlier poster who thinks that scum jumped on last minute (or perhaps not at all?).

Also, that is completely ridiculous--- to say that the wagon wasn't influenced by scum when we almost had enough votes to lynch one of them--- and then lynched someone else? What exactly is it that you think scum do? How do you think they avoid getting themselves / their partners lynched?


I'll give you a hint


IT INVOLVES DISTRACTING THE TOWN.

[kuribo]

I agree that Ythill deserves some of the attention, since he was also instrumental in helping to derail the pacman wagon the second time around by repeatedly defending him. I also didn't like that the hammer came after I had asked Darox a question that I wanted him to answer so as to help me clear things up on Day 2.

However, based on my experience with Ythill-as-scum, he's not as blatant as he has been here.

[kuribo]

I still don't like the cop-out argument that Darox did nothing to establish himself as town.


NEITHER DID PACMAN.

[kuribo]

I still don't like the cop-out argument that Darox did nothing to establish himself as town.


NEITHER DID PACMAN.

Yeah. It's an excuse that allows lazy scumhunters and scum to be torpid rather than actually looking for something scummy.

Or ignore actual scummy behavior.

[kuribo]

My final post to Darox was pointing out that if he's being lynched for being aggressive, that means I may be next.

Maybe you have to decide WHY WE LYNCHED DAROX FOR. Otherwise, it is going to be complicated to discuss. I thought that according to your view, we the retarded town lynched him for being lurker. Now it seems that it was for being aggressive...

I dont accept any of the two, but if I have to choose among them, lurker is much closer to reality than aggressive. Darox was not aggressive ever....

Now the rest of your post is quite illustrative.
I asked you about why you were worried being the next one. IMO, you thought that the last Darox post was scummish and maybe thought that we would look at you for a heavy defence. Hey, you can defend a person and even perceive he played badly. You are human, not a superhero of truth, though Im starting to doubt...

But now is funny, because you have starting to justify and discuss about:

- asking darox for an opinion on me
- discussing the NK
- discussing the powerroles we have...

among many other things. I have no idea why you are doing so...

Okay, I'm going to say this one more time.

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I DID NOT THINK DAROX WAS SCUMMY.

I WOULD HAVE CERTAINLY SAID SO IF I THOUGHT SO.

Darox was lynched because SCUM PUSHED HIS WAGON.

[kuribo]

And how do I know scum pushed his wagon?


A BULLCRAP CASE AGAINST DAROX WAS PUSHED TO A LYNCH WHILE IGNORING OBVIOUS SCUM PACMAN.


if THAT isn't indicative of scum pushing a wagon, by god, I don't know what is.

[kuribo]

My statement was a direct response to the fact that he said he was being lynched because he was a "mean person."

*I* am a mean person.

You're taking a tongue-in-cheek throwaway line and trying to make it look as if I was attempting to discredit Darox.


AND YET YOU WONDER WHAT SORT OF BEHAVIOR I FIND SCUMMY ABOUT YOU.

I don't think you honestly believe I was calling Darox out as scummy, I think it's just more of your games that you're using to try and mislead the town.

[kuribo]

You're misleading the town by trying to mischaracterize the arguments against you. By attempting to discredit me, by proxy you attempt to discredit the (valid) concerns I have against you.

While I choose to hear "Maybe there are 8 mafia around..." as sarcasm, it also comes across as talking down to a person.


ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING I AM FULLY AWARE THAT NOT EVERYONE ON DAROX'S WAGON COULD POSSIBLY BE SCUM, NOR HAVE I EVER SAID ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY APPROACHING SUCH AN ASININE STATEMENT.

[kuribo]

My first post was for you to come with a case against me. You consider a case is based on how loudly you say things. But this is useless for town. Go and explore my scumminess...but do it seriously. Ill answer every word you have to say, dont worry...

now i apologize as Im bickering again. But this guy is just loudly claiming his superiority over all of us, and I do not like this attitude (both in personal terms but also coz this is bad for town). Last post answering kuribo until he comes with a case to me.

Im collecting the list of questions I have. Ill write them down tomorrow or monday at most.

Okay, let's break this down piece by piece.

"My first post was for you to come with a case against me. "

I have explained from the very start what I found scummy about you, and each thing I've found scummy since then, I've pointed out.

" You consider a case is based on how loudly you say things. But this is useless for town. Go and explore my scumminess...but do it seriously. "

This is just more language to try and minimize the case.

"now i apologize as Im bickering again."

Aw, how nice of you to apologize to the town for your behavior.

"But this guy is just loudly claiming his superiority over all of us, and I do not like this attitude (both in personal terms but also coz this is bad for town)."

Again, more language that tries to diminish the very real concerns. To say that because I've been 'loudly claiming my superiority,' you're attempting to pooh-pooh everything I've said about you, and then brand it with the (oh noes!) dreaded 'bad for the town,' label.

" Last post answering kuribo until he comes with a case to me."

That's just it, every part of the case against you, you've tried to diminish. Here's a little secret--- THAT'S SOMETHING THAT SCUM DO.

[kuribo]

And you've seen me defend my scumbuddies when? C'mon kuribo, you know me better than that. I'd have been on at least one of his wagons if I was scum. I defended him because the speed of the first wagon suggested that he was town. Also, when I compared him to either sirdan or Darox, each seemed like a better lynch (especially sirdan).

That's exactly why I said: "However, based on my experience with Ythill-as-scum, he's not as blatant as he has been here." Perhaps I should have been more clear: Ythill is not a stupid player, and in my experience with him, he tends to straddle between distancing and casual "in-passing" type of low-key activity towards his partner. On the other hand, a player aware of his own meta (as you are, Ythill) is dangerous indeed.

I agree that I don't think the mafia would kill one of their own. I mean, the NK is a free kill, and letting pacman live would have forced the town to lynch him Day 2. And even that wasn't a guarantee.

Ythill, you're also ignoring the most obvious possibility: That we have / had a vig (possibly one-shot) who thought pacman should have been the lynch. As for sirdan, you assume yourself to be the NK, but alot of people had seen you as scummy for your attacks on sirdan. I don't think killing you last night was in the best interest of the mafia, if you're town, since the mafia would know they could try and paint you as scum for defending pacman.

The problem is that they had no reason not to target sirdan last night, but if sirdan is scum, then they had no reason not to kill at all.

And this, kids, is why we don't tend to discuss NKs.

[kuribo]

Clearly, at least one person wasn't so stupid after all.

This is true.

I didn't ignore that possibility at all. In fact, I so thoroughly took it for granted that I didn't bother to mention it as the way pacman would have died in the first

two

possibilities I mentioned.

Also, include the idea of two mafia groups in that.

Fair enough about taking it for granted. Although the idea of two mafia groups wouldn't be very balanced, would it?

[kuribo]

So the players responsible for leading the town led it into a scumlynch and nothing changes.

I remember when players used to at least promise to take a new look at the game.

this town is giving me a headache.

[kuribo]

I have my doubts that

A) Sirdan saw Ecto as the most pro-town player

and that

B) The Mafia saw Ecto as the biggest threat to them.

[kuribo]

You know, it's also possible the Mafia forgot to send in a kill.

(I've been on scumteams where we waited for the godfather to send in the kill, and he forgot to do it.)

[kuribo]

I have my doubts that

A) Sirdan saw Ecto as the most pro-town player

and that

B) The Mafia saw Ecto as the biggest threat to them.

A) Why?
B) Why?

You know, it's also possible the Mafia forgot to send in a kill.

(I've been on scumteams where we waited for the godfather to send in the kill, and he forgot to do it.)

This is wifom, there's no way to verify this, and it's unlikely. External factors like absence and forgetting something are outside of the scope of the game, in my opinion.

A- Because Ecto's far from the most pro-town player?
B- See A?

And of course it's WIFOM, that's why people don't talk about NKs. Because it leads to discussion exactly like this.

[kuribo]

You know, though, now that I think of it, protecting Ecto does give sirdan's claim some weight. It would have been just as easy for him to say, "Oh, I protected Ythill" if he were lying, since Ythill fully expected himself to be the NK.

And I know it's WIFOM, but the Mafia sending in an NK would also serve to explain why the claimed doc didn't die. (Of course, so would a bus driver, as Ythill said)

[kuribo]

You call that a good defense?

Are you high?

His defense basically amounts to, "Nuh-uh!"

Look, I've never liked when people say, "Oh, well, I'll vote for X later down the line." And then they do it AFTER the wagon picks up steam. Why? Simple--- Saying, "Well, I could vote for X" allows them to appear as if they want to actually be on the bandwagon when they're really testing the waters. Then, if the bandwagon gets a full head going, they can toss their vote on with the explanation, "Well, I said I was going to."

Nureins' defense is simply more of what he's been doing all along--- dismissing entire cases out of hand for BS reasons and attempting to convince the town that it's so. But, just because X isn't correct doesn't make Y and Z false.

[kuribo]

Also, I don't like how you just rolled over and accepted what he was shoveling.

[kuribo]

Kuribo, if my order of lynch was clear (as I showed to sirdan), my voting movement behavior clear (as I showed to sirdan), and my announcement to move clear and repeated (as I showed to sirdan), what is left ?

Formulate the question in a clear way, as then Ill be able to answer in a clear way. Sirdan seems to be satisfied with my clear answer...because I dont want to interpret. I try to interpret, probably is about the fact that I didnt unvote sirdan quickly and moved. But hey, you can see that in Newbie 636 days before sirdan's claim I (and I say I because it was me essentially) lynched a claimed doc. I was just waiting for some opinions, time passing and so on. But my first 3 words in the post were READY TO UNVOTE. An experienced scum would have just done UNVOTE with no further comment, and you would be unable to follow his behavior.

You can clearly follow my behavior with my posts. And it seems that sirdan "misinterpreted" me or just skimmed my posts. As I commented to Ythill, I find this natural, as I do write a shit of long posts and so on. He has decently admitted, just by saying OKay, with no signal of fake regret for his attitude. For me it is a very townie read, one of the few I have had from him...

No matter how many times you point to previous games and say "Look, I'm an idiot everywhere," it doesn't change the fact that your behavior is scummy.

[kuribo]

Sorry for not posting more. I've been very busy at work.

notice how nuriens drops the "nice but determined townie" attitude for a pure nasty one.

In the first place, he still seems quite reasonable to me. In the second place, Kuribo (on purpose or not) causes this kind of reaction in people. He attacks in a way that demands an aggressive response and leads to irritation. This is his playstyle, it would surpise me if he would deny this.
So it's hardly fair to throw suspicion on Nuriens for being affected by this playstyle. It's a null-tell.

FoS: Simenon

He's very blatantly lurking today, and this makes him my number one suspect, though not by a large margin.

Other suspects, in no particular order: nuriens, sirdan, nhat/darox2, goat. Mostly based on the analysis of interactions that other players have posted.

"Awwww, there there little nureins, it's okay. kuribo's mean to everyone. Don't overreact. There there. Shh... it's okay, I've got you."


I play this way for a reason, and it has a very specific purpose which I won't get into here.

[kuribo]

Oh please. If any other player had written the posts nuriens gets away with, that player would have been lynched long ago. Nuriens is just one crazed ramble. And you don't even know what lurking is.

I put all your posts together and see nothing. Arguments without justification and/or quoting support. I have no idea how your lurking is so effective.

I'm starting to feel like a broken record because I keep pointing out how your defenses boil down to:

"I'm not scum because I'm not."

"I always play this way and I'm a newbie."

"You're wrong and therefore everything you've posted against me is useless."

[kuribo]

I'm starting to feel like a broken record because I keep pointing out how your defenses boil down to...

Be careful with Simenon then...he can post a nonsense post in which his rage claims that you are repetitive and so on...

To all that attacked me, I defended. I do not need to defend more if I dont see new questions. Ask questions in a proper way, Ill answer. Ive answered everything in the game.

Maybe you prefer to make funny comments about broken records and claiming your town superiority by knowing the "truth". I do not like obsessed biased townies for a reason. They think they have the truth, so if you dont admit they have the truth, they mantain their position...however, I know my truth, but you dont, so I can talk as a truth-teller, you cannot. But you do !

Come with questions and stop adding shit...

Awww, I sowwy, do you want me to leave you alone and stop pickin on you? Poor widdle guy.

[kuribo]

I agree with Sim on this. Nureins' posts are long, but they're full of fluff. He's the Sarah Palin of this game of Mafia. He says alot without saying anything at all.

[kuribo]

Come with questions and stop adding shit...

Awww, I sowwy, do you want me to leave you alone and stop pickin on you? Poor widdle guy.

I keep pointing out how your defenses boil down to:

"I'm not scum because I'm not."

"I always play this way and I'm a newbie."

"You're wrong and therefore everything you've posted against me is useless."

[kuribo]

it's like if I said,

"Nureins, what Supreme Court decisions do you disagree with?"

And you replied,

"Well, of course, there's, in the great history of America, there have been rulings that there's never gonna be absolute consensus by every American, and um, there are those issues, again like Roe v Wade, where I believe are best held on a state level and addressed there. So, you know, going through the history of America, there would be others, but um."

And then I said,

"Can you think of any?"

And you said,

"Well, I would think of any, again, that could best be dealt with on a more local level, maybe I would take issue with. You know, as a mayor, then as a governor, and even as a Vice President, if I'm so privileged to serve, would be in a position of changing those things, but in supporting the law of the land, as it reads today."



See, everytime you're asked a question, you give the appearance of answering it, but your answers are far from satisfying.

[kuribo]

blablabla

Make questions that can be answered. I dont lose my time with stupidities, I have a life. Read the previous post to see that I do answer questions when properly formulated. And I do answer adequately.

Just because your answers are justified in your mind doesn't mean we're obligated to take them at what you say is face value.

[kuribo]

I consider him a self-righteous poster with lot of egocentrism in his playstyle

doesn't mean I'm wrong, though

[kuribo]

This is the quote you're talking about, addressed to Darox:

I guess that means I'll be the lynch for tomorrow?

Do you think I'm on the right track with nureins?

Where in the smelly hell do you get the idea that I was worried about him coming up scum? I wanted to know if he thought you were scummy. If I thought he was scum, I WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO ASK HIM THAT.

Stop misrepresenting arguments, stop ducking and dodging questions, this isn't a Vice Presidential debate.

[kuribo]

This is more of your "If I disprove one part of a case, I must clearly not be scum," behavior.

[kuribo]

This is more of your "If I disprove one part of a case, I must clearly not be scum," behavior.

I simply point out which arguments by others are debatable, which are correct, and which are false. This is the task of a good townie, and Im not going to stop due to your insistance...

No, what you do is pick apart the pieces that you can, and then say that the ENTIRE case against you is invalid.

[kuribo]

- I consider Kuribo a shit player and I was ironic.

suck my balls

[kuribo]

I'd say it's more homoerotic than emotional.

Not as homoerotic as an Ultimate Warrior interview.

[kuribo]

vote Ythill

. We found pacman's partner, people.

We did, and it would help if you would VOTE FOR HIM.

[kuribo]

Also, if you think Ythill was bussing pacman, you're high, since he laid a case out explaining why pacman was town.

Go sit in your failure corner.

[kuribo]

You may criticize people's play styles if you want to, but people shouldn't say 'you're a bad player' or 'you fail' or stuff like that.

Maybe you should try succeeding if you don't want your failure pointed out?

[kuribo]

Notice how Cass still hasn't explained why the post she quoted is a poor one

in context

.

It's easy to assert things and not back them up. But we've been through this.

After 40+ pages for Day 1, it feels like we've been over EVERYTHING.

[kuribo]

(and before nureins comes along and twists that last statement to mean we should quicklynch without discussion, what I was referring to is the fact that Day 1 was frustratingly long and had alot of discussion. It's a turn of phrase, you see)

[kuribo]

Kuribo, could you please stop throwing shit at people and start playing the game again, like you were doing day 1.

How is it not playing the game to point out that you're making a ridiculous and flawed argument?

[kuribo]

oh no, nureins pointed out that town once mislynched me, that must mean I'm completely wrong about his alignment

[kuribo]

oh, and sure, let's talk about Scottish Mafia where I chose to falseclaim scum rather than kill myself trying to read Empking's nonsensical ramblings

[kuribo]

And no, the reason for post 1121 was because you've been twisting peoples arguments in order to attempt to invalidate the arguments against you. Town doesn't have to do this, you know.

[kuribo]

Manipulating jokes is a scumtell ?

No, I pointed out a different thing. Your obsession with mafia is so ridiculous that you accused yourself in Mini 617 of being mafia when you were a townie.

Obsession? Please. If i'm obsessed with anything, it's Half-Life 2.

And I didn't "accuse" myself of being mafia, I lied and told the town I was scum so that they'd lynch me.

[kuribo]

P.S. - Kuribo needs some investigation for possibly bussing Pacman.

Yes, because the best possible move would have been to continue to push for the lynch of a scum partner long after the wagon's moved on and then complain loudly the next day about how the rest of you got it wrong.

How would that help me in any way if I were scum?

[kuribo]

Or is it just a case of "player was right about scum, therefore they must be scum busing?"

That right there is one of my least favorite metas on this site:

If you don't find scum, you're "not really scumhunting and probably anti-town."

If you DO find scum, you're "clearly bussing your partner."

[kuribo]

sirdan, why do you accuse Ythill of avoiding arguments when nureins does the exact same in a roundabout and verbose way?

[kuribo]

sirdan, why do you accuse Ythill of avoiding arguments when nureins does the exact same in a roundabout and verbose way?

Point out where i avoided to answer a clear question.
If you have more doubts, formulate a clear question.

Just by attempting to quantify things by specifying "a clear question" is an example of what I'm talking about.

Anytime you're asked a question, your response is either:

A) "That's not a clear question, I won't answer it, now here's a hundred more lines of text."

or

B) "This one part of your case is incorrect in my view, therefore your entire case is invalid."

[kuribo]

I think that with simenon, it's just his playstyle. Ythill's is a bit more interesting. It's a bit uncharacteristic for him, but it could also be a result of the heat that's gone on between the two of you.

Give me a few minutes on the nureins bit.

[kuribo]

Here's one example from the early beginning:

@ nuriens: There's been time to see what's developed. Now, do you find me scummy? Or Pope? Or both? Or neither? Why?

I was simulposting at the same time you wrote this...and you can see there all my answers. This is Spain, I hope you dont pretend me to write at 4 a.m.

Now during the day I can be active answering from time to time some posts. And at the morning I can do a big one as I did today...

Now time to work. Enjoy the day...

For starters, he says he was simulposting at the time Ythill wrote his post. Ythill's post came in four hours before nureins'. How long did it take him to write the post?

And, if you read the preceding posts, 104 and 105, you see that he really DIDN'T answer Ythill's question, "Do you find me scummy?"

He does, however, toss an FOS onto TPT and say that he doesn't want the poor little guy to feel pressured.

This is shortly before he votes Simenon. Is the scumteam intimidated by Sim?

Want another example? Sure!

When I said you wouldn't take a stand, it had nothing to do with you not voting. It had everything to do with your extensive use of qualifying phrases. Good townies are not afraid to be wrong and, especially since English is not your first language, I'd think you understand the power of qualifiers to make a statement ambivalent.

This is a funny argument. Before voting someone for his writting style, I would have take a read to some of his posts in other games...obviously, you didnt.

Other things I find suspicious: basing your current case on theory disagreements, ]suspicion growing against Sim while his tells have been showing more town than scum, suddenly both taking a stance and making a vote in answer to my accusation, and buddying to Cass.

1. theory disagreements ?? my initial suspicion is based on simenon's intervention in tpt vs ythill.
2. suspicion came into a vote. Why do you think later on he has gone a lot up ? Cass already unvoted him...and I could do the same or not depending on the existence of a better suspect...
3. FALSE. READ MY POST. I WAS ANSWERING POSTS ONE BY ONE. IF I WERE SCUM I WOULDNT USE SUCH RIDICULOUS STRATEGY TO HIDE A VOTE, DONT U THINK ?
But obviously, you havent read my posts very carefully, just you jumped over me the same way you jumped when I mentioned you the first time...too many quick votes for someone who is reluctant to cast votes in the beginning.

At least you could have used Ectomancer's arguments, which were incorrect but credibe (oh, ectomancer, am I claiming your authority again ? now it sounds more like authority, not like townie-reading, haha)

OMGUS vote:

UNVOTE. VOTE: Ythill

Here he is, by his own admission engaging in attempting to minimize what Ythill says about him. (And tosses in a pointless / blatant / self-admitted OMGUS)

The accusation is right there. Where it says: "you haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it". You might argue saying that cass' quote is just a stylish FoS, but why say it? everyone should be looking at everyone's behavior, there's no need to say it again.

Andy, you have gone back only until post 118 (by Cass). Please go back until post 115 (by Simenon), in which he is the first that assumes someone has accused him. He says explicitly, SHOW ME WHERE I'VE BACKTRACKED (If i remember correctly). Before 115, No Cass word was saying he did, just saying stating someone is town without any reasoning allows someone to hide a lot of intentions and modify later in whatever direction, and therefore, it is not useful for town but only for scum...

OMGUS vote

Admitting to OMGUS is one of the most antitown attitudes.

I am completely sure that you are able to understand the difference between an OMGUS attitude and someone who "announces" that the following vote can be labelled (only because of formalism) as an OMGUS' vote according to the definition...

Andycyca: Lot of lurking posting. Desire someone to start a wagon against him at some moment to see his reactions...

I'm not against pressure wagons, but I want to know:

@nureins: if you wanted to see a pressure wagon on me, why didn't you vote (I'm not within quicklynch, I hope)?

For two reasons. The first, that I had a clear objective, so my vote is casted accordingly. The second, that Ectomancer is yet dealing with his pressure on me, and I do not want him to get lost in the forest with a vote on someone who is just in my scumeter because of absence of posts. So I kindly "asked" to people to start this wagon (and probably Cass who believes that Im town, accepted the invitation).

I do not think you are in quicklynch at all, but Id like to see more words (in this forum, in this game, about this game ) from you to end up forming an opinion.[/quote]

When called out on the OMGUS vote, he downplays it.


Jesus Christ, I could keep going, but I don't want to grow old sitting here at this computer.

[kuribo]

okay, now take the fact that you agree with a few of the things in those three cases i cited...


then add in the fact that I cited three out of MANY

[kuribo]

THIS IS WHAT I LIKE TO CALL MY TOLD YOU SO DANCE.

errr, I mean, yeah, mass claim sounds good.

[kuribo]

I'm on board for the mass claim. It looks like we really need to figure out what's been happening at night.

@Simenon: Cass is town, by the way.

Also, Jahudo, you should clarify this.

[kuribo]

Let's do it.

Oh right.

I'm a roleblocker, I blocked Ecto last night.

What about Night 1?

Also, I'm a vanilla townie. I did nothing to anyone either night.

[kuribo]

Is there the possibility of a scum Mason partner?

[kuribo]

You guys are forgetting one thing, but I'll wait until the other two have claimed before I point it out.

[kuribo]

Well, for starters, we have two people claiming roleblocker.

[kuribo]

sirdan- Doc
Ythill- tracker
Simenon- Roleblocker
Darox- Roleblocker
Jahudo and Cass- Masons
Goatrevolt and kuribo- Vanilla


Either some of you are lying, or this is the most town-slanted setup ever.

[kuribo]

Ecto hasn't claimed, I forgot to mention that.

But so far, we don't have anyone claiming a role that could have killed pacman.

[kuribo]

Yeah, I've already assumed what he's going to claim, and it does make sense.

Darox 2 as scum would explain alot of nhat's lurky behavior.

And, Simenon, of course you know that if we lynch Darox 2 and he's a roleblocker, you'll be the next one run up the flagpole.

[kuribo]

oh fuck.

I dunno, Sim, that doesn't sound like a Roleblocker that's caught scum in a falseclaim.

[kuribo]

Is there the possibility of a scum Mason partner?

Isn't the point of a mafia mason that the town mason wouldn't know it's a possibility? If you want we can summarize our role PM's? Cass do you want to go first when you check in?

No. There are pro-scum masons, I've been scum before with a pro-scum mason. Unless you're specifically told that you know them to be town, you can't be sure.

Don't quote your role PM or anything dumb like that. Just tell me:

Are you absolutely sure Cass is town?

[kuribo]

nhat posted on the site clear up until Sept 28, N1 ended Sept 23

[kuribo]

uhh no. Let's lynch one of me/Darox, have ecto shoot the other one, and then lynch ecto if necessary.

unless he was a 1-shot vig

[kuribo]

Ummm, guys?

Ecto said he targetted sirdan.

Darox claimed to have RB'd ecto LONG before ecto claimed.

Sirdan is still alive.

Our other roleblocker claimed to block Cass.

SO, Darox's claim stands on its face more due to the fact that Sirdan lives.

Instead of trying to game the system, let's look at these facts and ask ourselves:

Would Scum Darox roleblock Ecto, not knowing whether he was a vig or not? Clearly scum needs to roleblock the doc if they have a Mafia Roleblocker. But the fact that Ecto failed to kill Sirdan says to me that Sim isn't being truthful about blocking Cass.

Here's what I think happened:

Sirdan doc protects me, as verified by Ythill. Ythill is confirmed because Mafia already lost their tracker in pacman, so Ythill is a pro-town tracker. This confirms Sirdan as doc, because I am not dead and if Sirdan were scum, I would be.

Ecto tries to vig / SK kill Sirdan. But Darox roleblocks Ecto, denying him the vig / SK kill. The result: No kill on Night 2.

Vote: Simenon

[kuribo]

Watcher and Tracker are so similar, it's really hard for me to imagine both being on the same side though.

[kuribo]

So what we should be asking is,

Ecto, why would you try and kill the uncounterclaimed doc?

[kuribo]

I dont get why we are choosing Simenon today. My feeling, and Goat's review indicates that Darox is the more likely scum.

Because Darox claimed to have blocked your vig kill, in my mind, it gives his claim more weight.

[kuribo]

Anyway, I think the best thing we can do is go back through the thread and read through earlier posts and see if they make sense or fit people's claims. It's worth reading through to see if Simenon fits as a RB, if Ythill fits as a tracker, if Cass/Jahudo fit as masons. I remember Cass defending Jahudo fairly strongly day 1, which would certainly support them being masons together, for instance.

Ythill as tracker is confirmed unless you think sirdan and he are scum partners. Which is a bit of a stretch since I fully expected them to travel to one another's homes and attack the other.

[kuribo]

By jove, you're right, how could I not realize that?

[kuribo]

But Simenon and Darox always play like that.

Nhat's silence was uncharacteristic.

[kuribo]

Usually, no. This can vary from mod to mod, but most of the time it's one action per night. Forcing Ythill to target you would mean he has to use his tracker role on you otherwise he will get caught. Generally, this would also prevent him from making a NK if he's scum. If we don't force him to target you, he can submit a NK. Then tomorrow he could claim to have tracked a player who didn't make a night action (myself, Kuribo, masons) and get away with it.

No, if there's only one scum left, and he's for example, a Roleblocker, most mods allow him to do both. But ONLY if he's the last one alive.

Also, I'd imagine our mod will not answer this question if we ask him.

[kuribo]

I gots a bad feeling about this.

[kuribo]

IS IT THAT GOD DAMN HARD TO JUST GO BACK AND INTERPRET PEOPLES' ACTIONS?

[kuribo]

Thanks for the kind words, guys, but as you can see, I wasn't entirely convinced about Darox B. I was starting to cotton to nhat's lurky behavior, though, but I probably would have still seen Sim as somewhat opportunistic at times. Nhat's behavior troubled me a bit, though, because I've played with him before and it was uncharacteristic.

Nureins, you're right: While my scumdar was right on in two cases, I'm not the best at logically laying out my arguments--- I knew that habitang and yourself had exhibited troubling behavior, but I had a hard time proving it to the town. So, I fell back on the "kuribo playstyle---" Antagonize you endlessly with fits of rage until you become so frustrated that you cease making good decisions. And, to an extent, it generally works.

Habitang hurt pacman more than pacman did. Pacman didn't have a complete meltdown until the very end of day 1.

[kuribo]

Also, since Darox opted to RB Ecto night 2, I assume two things:

1) Darox, did you have an inkling that Ecto was the vig, and were worried you would be the target?

2) I also assume you were trying to play WIFOM games the following day with the lack of a kill?

[kuribo]

@ kuribo: Although your townie play in this game was quite good, I should warn you that I have a pretty solid read on you. If you are scum against me in the future, you'd better mix up your play.

I'm a piss-poor scumside player because I seem to play more conservatively when I'm scum, which puts me on the defensive.

So with me being aware of my own meta, it shouldn't require TOO much effort to behave the same way all the time.

Unfortunately that means less of kuribo and more of The Hulk!

[kuribo]

I had some advice for nuereins, but i'll post it in the morning.

[kuribo]

I hope this shows to you that 'haha whatever scum' doesn't help you to catch scum.

Well, no, it worked for me, I'm just alot more volatile about it.

Ythill says, "Haha, whatever, scum"

kuribo says, "HURRY UP AND GET LYNCHED FOR CHRISTS SAKE, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU PEOPLE WAITING FOR?! JESUS!"

two sides of the same coin, really