Large Normal 241: Random Pictures and Other Stuff | Endgame

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Frogsterking

H-O-L-Y S-H-I-T

Rolling Mason is such a negative utility because it makes guys play like total brick heads

have fun winning D9 or whatever when you FINALLY kill all the scum

Thank goodness Menalque got fucking shot and Gamma exited so you guys stopped hard defending scum

Frog, have you ever self-voted as town before?

@Frog - This was a serious question, can you link me a time you've self-voted as town?

[GuiltyLion]

The responses to me in 8082 and 8083 actually give me the impression of real thought behind his read on me and I think that if scum-Frogster had successfully fabricated that sort of thought process, then he would have just come out with it straight away instead of the initial 8078

I think this is maybe the best point in Frog's defense, but I don't put a ton of stock into it because ultimately Frog is giving reasons for a townread in 8082 and 8083 and it's not always difficult to fake real-sounding thought processes for fictional townreads as scum, cause you know everybody's town

[GuiltyLion]

actually @Frog nvm I just went back and checked and I had forgotten you self-voted in KTANE. Which was maybe a slightly different situation since you knew you had just done an extremely anti-town play, but I guess does give a basic precedent to being willing to sac yourself under fire.

still, I'm having a hard time understanding why you had the reaction you did. Why did Datisi suspecting you cause you a reactive response like that?

[GuiltyLion]

Directly communicating with CSF in-thread about whether to just let Morning Tweet die or go for my elim instead just feels way too.... blatantly like a scum PT conversation for it to be carried out in thread like that? Especially since if it was CSF + Frog as scum with Tweet there, there was very little evidence actual townies wanting my death over Tweet's at that point.

Also I just went back and reread this part of the game

the thing that makes it scummy in my mind is like - I don't have a strong recollection of Frog pushing Gamma when Gamma was around. I'll go back and do some homework after this post, but IIRC Frog wasn't pushing Gamma at all until Tweet came in. Now, suddenly, he's writing up a case on Gamma? If he was aware of these points before why was he not addressing them before when he wasn't voting Gamma? I kinda feel like it may have been an effort to make sure he has a nice justification for his Tweet scumread+vote left over there in ISO for if anyone goes looking later

[GuiltyLion]

The problem with Gamma is that they're in a similar category as HEM, they're Towned by IIRC scamper and also by Ari posthumously.

could this not be scum grabbing for towncred for his buddies using the voice of Real Townies? If Frog is town it's unlucky that he had a position of "well I scumread their play but conf town thinks they were town" on not one but two mafias

[GuiltyLion]

D2 tilt wagon?

what is a tilt wagon?

HEM

what is a tilt wagon?

When the towncore goes on tilt and throws away the D2 kill.

Frog blatantly defending HEM here

I know sometimes town is Loud and Wrong about townreads on scum, but this super confident townread really only sprung up in response to HEM being wagoned. Initially Frog was suggesting he'd be ok with the wagon (before it actually happened)

I think HEM is fair game today because none of the 5 slots I'm sheeping for proxy Town reads (ydrasse, scamper, Ausuka, Dats, Nero) town read HEM unless Nero does.

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Frogsterking

[GuiltyLion]

so-called associative tells.

surely you should recognize that defending and campaigning on behalf of flipped scum is not a good look

you might be town that did that but it's not really at all ridiculous to say you shouldn't be townread for it

[GuiltyLion]

I'm looking at this PoE and it's really not as tight as you're implying.

who of the uncleared players would you bet the game on being town?

[GuiltyLion]

Datisi, I'm not claiming.

Titus, everyone else has already claimed

you're not withholding any information from scum at this point

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think Guilty Lion's reasons to town read Fire are very good because I don't understand what GL actually expects scum!fire to do differently in this situation. Hard push both Frogster and GL as scum after CSF flips scum? That doesn't really make sense. Fire just needs to leave the door open to go back to suspecting GL later and all he has to do is town flip Frogster to do that. There's only one scum left (or at least there better be), so pushing two people when you want one person to help you this phase seems counterintuitive for scum.

I guess it's less that fireisred reversed tack once CSF was outed and more that he wrote an enormous case on me that he would know has an expiry date in the first place. Like CSF was in full anti-spew mode from the get, why go through the effort of pretending (or actually) rereading the entire game and write an enormous narrative for a fabricated scumread that you're willing to drop at a moment's notice. it's just not intuitive to me as what scum would do

it's possible that you're right. but on an instinctual level it just doesn't align with how I feel scum would play. I think scum would be generally more prone to enacting their long term agenda contingent on CSF going down, not setting up a gameplan that they'd then immediately have to scrap

[GuiltyLion]

I feel like you are doing the least of real-time solving this phase out of everyone left in the game

also, I'd like you to point me to where Frogster is doing real-time solving. All he's doing is insulting people suspecting him

[GuiltyLion]

What was the advantage to not claiming, in your opinion? Given that odd-night vig was confirmed and every other player had also claimed. What did you think scum might not know?

I think it's kinda weird Titus didn't die, but that's still self-resolving.

I'm probably just wrong on fire I guess? I was lazy yesterDay but I'll have more time this day phase

[GuiltyLion]

folks, never plan a wedding it's just A Lot

I will prioritize some time to get to this today. I skimmed along a bit and see that fire is pushing DV now? I will read and consider, but I'm wary. There's important VCs I need to revisit from when DV was a wagon. however I kinda gutfeel obscure wouldn't spend all his time tunneling and calling out a partner on principle

at some point I wanna reread D1/D2 for myself it's just an intimidating task at the moment it's been keeping me away. but I owe this game some Real Solviness and I am feeling guilty(lion) that I haven't given it that yet, I will embark on the reread today even if I don't have time to finish it in the same sitting

[GuiltyLion]

i can't believe that scum actually expected mt to live with that claim lol

I wouldn't believe it either, it was obviously a bad claim. I would guess the main purpose that claim served was so buddies could either establish reason to vote or cement her death

[GuiltyLion]

to be clear in the vast majority of universes here I wanna lim fire today

I just wanna do my Homework before we do in case it's wrong and the game goes haywire

[GuiltyLion]

hey everyone, I'm here and gonna start doing some reading, but around for real time interfacing if anyone wants that too.

[GuiltyLion]

@Shea

That being said there feels like an...idk it feels like fire is pushing people because he knows he'd be expected to push people but it feels like theres not that much actual attempt to solve the game in the sense that there seems like there's very little curiosity about people's alignment outside of DVs just like yesterday there seemed like very little curiosity in peoples alignment outside of frogster.

Like its simultaneously projecting confidence and lack of confidence and that's what's really bugging me about it.

Like it looks like fireisred cased DV because he knew he had to push someone and went back and found a bunch of stuff that look bad for DV and it feels like thats the kind of same thing he did yesterday with frogster, but why arent we considering other options outside of just casing one person?

I feel you on this post and I think (if I'm understanding right) what you're saying on this page as well - if fire's attitude is that this gamestate is winnable for scum, and that he would be trying harder as scum - that doesn't seem to align with his "lim DV after me" attitude when presumably a competent scum!DV might be able to talk his way out of it and win, nor is he worried about the possibility of a deep scum in the pool that's being mistakenly townread?

And I definitely feel like I as scum lean into the "being cool with your own lim / being in the limpool" strategy because you feel like you kinda have to if you want to have any real hope of surviving, I definitely don't townread that behavior.

it's also not really relevant but I think Dann is radiating towniness on these past couple of pages. past couple of day phases really, feels like he's trying the hardest out of all of us

[GuiltyLion]

But underneath that there was the logic "i am playing differently from how scum me would play."

yeah, I think this is right. I think mafia in general are more likely to get pulled into these somewhat abstract arguments about how they would or wouldn't play, whereas town tends to stay a little more focused on the ground level explaining why they acted how they did and/or who they think is scummy. a lot of fire's recent posts I'm not really intuitively understanding why he's engaging with these tangential arguments so much when to me they feel detached from Things That Are Useful

[GuiltyLion]

I guess my thinking though is that at a certain point town usually realizes they're getting caught up in a haze of pedantic bullshit that is ultimately like three steps removed from stuff that they think speaks to their case or helps resolve people's feelings about them. plus they're also operating from a baseline that they're town. so there's an inherent throughline of towniness to everything you think you've done and personally it's frustrating to start getting into the theory of an argument like "here's how I could be playing as scum, but I'm not doing that for x and y reason, but also here's why I'm not playing this other way as town, etc" whereas as scum you're more prone to thinking such a debate may help you in some way or another

does that make sense? I think when I'm town I just start getting riled up and try to start simplifying the debate and hammering my main points whereas scum me has a harder time doing that, if I do it's an emulation

[GuiltyLion]

tbh it just seems like you've barely been paying attention to the game for like weeks

yeah this seems like a wonky read, TSQ has maybe had moments of absentmindedness at late hours (mainly thinking of forgetting CSF claim thing) but also has had many other instances of paying attention to subtle points or assertions in people's posts that I've missed on first pass

[GuiltyLion]

I'm back and around. I've been rereading D1 since last night and will continue to do so today. I'm mainly hunting for anything that absolutely pushes me away from a scum!fire explanation

[GuiltyLion]

skitter you missed it, lately ive been burnt out and haven't cared much about early game of games as town

ty for the context, that explains a bit more how vp is approaching this, i was thinking u feel p similar to the last few games i have played with you

did i play a game with scum-you? i'm not remembering offhand

skitter you missed it, lately ive been burnt out and haven't cared much about early game of games as town

ty for the context, that explains a bit more how vp is approaching this, i was thinking u feel p similar to the last few games i have played with you

did i play a game with scum-you? i'm not remembering offhand

i think you specced at least some of invictus

Don't get me wrong, I'm largely skimming past all the posts from dead townies unless it's direct conversation with fire or other living players. Mostly focusing on flipped scum and how fire is interacting with them and the gamestate

[GuiltyLion]

Whoops, had those quoted but decided not to post anything lol, then they got wrapped up in quick post. So far that's been the most interesting thing I've found in the first like 15 pages, but it doesn't stand out to me as antipartnery hence why I wasn't gonna highlight it lol

[GuiltyLion]

The main thing I was thinking was it's interesting skitter just kinda takes fire at his word regarding his meta and early games. But that could either be pocketing or theater ultimately so yeah, not really useful. I wanted to say it was maybe slightly antipartnery but then figured skitter may be equally likely to put up more of a fight/push on fire in the town!fire world

[GuiltyLion]

Dats dear, I think if you just take the extra attention as a positive because all your friends here are thinking about you, maybe you will feel happier and loved. <3.

Please do feel the love Datisi <3

until I vig you at least

why vig him when you could vig firebringer or xofelf.

It's random and unimportant but I kinda feel like this post should lock Titus as town. This seems pretty clearly the even night vig trying to suggest shots to who he thinks might be the odd night vig

Also first 20something pages reminded me how visibly unpartnered Ausuka and VPB are. Fire also has some dodgy posts attempting to sow doubt on Ausukas VPB suspicion

[GuiltyLion]

Uh oh I'm getting to fireisreds Eiralox push and I am remembering that I liked that push a lot. Namely because fireisred had already checked Eiralox meta and had a specific type of reaction he was hunting for. I think scum is notably less likely to check a townies meta in hopes that they will find "different" behavior in a game where they know that townie is town again

Especially since it wasn't post hoc or anything

[GuiltyLion]

I've decided Datisi is scum but we should let him live because he's cool

Datisi I'm putting you in the penalty box, you're gonna need to start wowing me with some better reads to get out

GL is top town read.

what do you think of Irrellephant, VPB

Can you do me a favor and link a starting point

[GuiltyLion]

-_-

my gut says DV, but there are still large chunks of this game that I haven't revisited

I also plan to reread obscure's pushes on DV again. I remember initially feeling obscure felt like he genuinely believed DV was scum (4019), but then deciding he was suspiciously

too

confident in it for flimsy/unbelievable reasons (5362), and in light of fire's thoughts + townflip I am now thinking this is more likely to be distancing theater instead of scum tunneling a townie. I had somewhat mindlessly discarded that idea earlier (8811), but it feels more likely as the POE shrinks. overall I still think Ausuka/Titus are unassailably town and TSQ just feels more genuinely uninformed and earnestly present than DV if I compare the two on vibes.

however, I also really need to stop just coasting on vibes so expect more from me shortly

[GuiltyLion]

DeasVail (6): fireisredsir, Ausuka, marcistar, Frogsterking, Enchant, obscure
obscure (5): GuiltyLion, Datisi, Nero Cain, scamper, Dannflor
humaneatingmonkey (2): Ydrasse, Gamma Emerald
Thestatusquo (1): humaneatingmonkey
fireisredsir (1): Thestatusquo
Morning Tweet (1): DeasVail
Not voting (1): Something_Smart
Day 1 will end in (expired on 2022-09-18 20:44:00). With 17 alive it takes 9 to eliminate.

I also think

normally

this is a bad look for DV - counterwagon to scum yet both of the other known scum (Gamma, HEM) are wasting votes elsewhere, neither bussing for towncred nor pushing the hypothetical DV miselim. Knowing everyone else's alignment on the DV wagon (as well as my own) it feels like it'd have to be exactly Ausuka if DV is town (if scum!TSQ, why are all three scum vanity voting in a T/S dueling wagon situation), but I strongly TR Ausuka, so...

unfortunately the caveat here, the reason I only say "normally", is that this is also a part in the game where both Gamma and HEM were flaking/replacing out, so it's not strictly as damning as I want it to be if they had been active and posting frequently. I plan to go back and reread this bit in context to see what their angles/trajectories were specifically around this time as DV/obscure wagons were each building, to what degree they were present at all, but I haven't gotten to that yet

[GuiltyLion]

Utterly detest shea rushing the hammer.

meh it wasn't great that Shea did that but I don't think it's indicative, scum!Shea could just as easily be patient there. They weren't being seriously considered as a lim that day and all the momentum was on fire, who was pushing DV. I don't think there's really a lot of utility gained from rushing the hammer for scum!Shea, seems more like a personality thing than an alignment thing. It could also easily come from town who genuinely thinks the game has a high chance of ending with the hammer.

[GuiltyLion]

Morning Tweet (9): DeasVail, Nero Cain, Dannflor, fireisredsir, Datisi, Ausuka, Ydrasse, scamper, Frogsterking

I also want to say TSQ is town based on this wagon - if scum!TSQ, it would mean 9 townies collectively voted scum out with not a single scum bussing and playing for towncred. That's exceedingly rare, I don't think I can recall a single time I've seen a wagon that large consist entirely of town.

[GuiltyLion]

I guess Shea did make a lot of noise about how they

wanted

to be on that wagon, Frogster's hammer was unexpected, but I don't think that changes the point all that much. if scum!TSQ had really

really

wanted to be on the scum wagon, they wouldn't have removed or hesitated with their vote, especially since they were calling out Gamma from the get. I think previously we also touched on TSQ yelling about it is arguably +town, since scum may be more self-conscious about the optics of explicitly complaining that they weren't on the wagon.

[GuiltyLion]

feh okay yeah I just checked Gamma/HEM ISOs and both had fully replaced out before DV wagon was really even a thing

so I guess the VCA logic can't be fully trusted

at the same time I don't think it's like completely wrong. at least as far as Shea goes I still think it's +town, it's just maybe not a full +scum for DV

[GuiltyLion]

I think the only scenario where Titus is scum is she's a serial killer and either has a gated kill or Nero happened to hit VPB or Ari on D1 and then decided to play it modified vig once HEM's vig claim came out. I don't think she can be group scum by Normal rules? but someone please tell me if that's wrong

and even then if she's SK it's still also weird that HEM claimed

modified

vig. That means if Titus is SK he got remarkably lucky with a complete BS claim that perfectly slotted in with the

one

town modified vig, or scum had to have knowledge of marci's role somehow

[GuiltyLion]

wait Titus can't be a gated kill SK cause then we would have had a night of no-kills, so scrap that bit

[GuiltyLion]

I will be going through every slot in depth over the next few days

do you have any initial hot takes / gut feelings on who you think is mafia?

[GuiltyLion]

ugh I promise it's not me

I know that doesn't mean anything, but y'know

Not gonna lie I kinda gutfeel this is a townie post lol

I should absolutely not put any stock into it but ahhh my heart

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think this is that weird though, he didn't actually claim even night vig, modified vig is a pretty vague claim to make

I guess let me be clearer on my thinking

1) we know Titus is not groupscum because multiple kills on N2
2) if Titus is SK, that means mafia team was exactly 4 goons and could not have had information on town PRs
3) after n1, mafia would know of the existence of another killing role due to multiple kills
4) HEM claimed modified vig on D2... why? At this point there'd be no reason to suspect a town vig is gated, it doesn't work as a fakeclaim to draw out a full vig, why claim vig at all? Why not claim something like an investigative or other form of PR? I guess I just don't see what HEM hopes to gain here if he had no knowledge of the set up whatsoever

However, typing this out made me realize that if it's 4 mafia goons in a 21 player set up, they probably have to think there's a third party or something helping them out? Cause otherwise that's pretty stacked against them lol. So maybe scum was already suspecting presence of a SK from the beginning if we're in that world?

I also haven't thought much about Enchant being universal back up. Is two modified vigs + three masons + universal backup against 5 scum a balanced setup? What could the 5th mafia role be to help them, and what are the odds that's the last person we'd flip before going through all 4 goons first?

Maybe I should be more suspicious of Titus. It sucks that Nero replaced out cause not shooting HEM on N2 is still overall pretty bizarre

[GuiltyLion]

I don't really buy into VCA stuff personally but I understand people disagree with me about that

What do you think about my point for TSQ town though, that's not really as much "VCA" as it is "how often do you see an entirely pure 9 person wagon on scum"

[GuiltyLion]

going to actually do a quick pass of this specific part of the game...

Morning Tweet (5): DeasVail, Nero Cain, Frogsterking, Dannflor, fireisredsir
obscure (4): Datisi, Ausuka, Ydrasse, GuiltyLion
DeasVail (3): marcistar, Enchant, obscure
Thestatusquo (1): Cat Scratch Fever
fireisredsir (1): Thestatusquo
Not voting (3): Something_Smart, scamper, Morning Tweet
Day 1 will end in (expired on 2022-09-18 20:44:00). With 17 alive it takes 9 to eliminate.

Here we have two dueling wagons on scum. if TSQ is scum then both these wagons are entirely pure and literally all four unflipped mafia are voting elsewhere. Gamma's been replaced by Tweet (who is posting but has not claimed), obscure is flaking out and hasn't posted, TSQ is obviously around and posting a lot. CSF is also in the game and posted several times at this point, though is still presumably not at all caught up.

This is exactly where I'd expect scum to be doing

something

about both wagons being on scum, even though there's a fully absent teammate being wagoned. IMO the safe and better play would actually be probably to bus obscure, he's out of the game, it gives Tweet time to catch up overnight. TSQ probably can't do that however because they've already voiced a ton of suspicion on Gamma.

I mean i still think gamma was scum but I'm still alarmed by how everyone told me i was wrong and then happily jumped on.

VOTE: tweet

I guess I could imagine this being a bus vote, frankly. Makes sure to remind everyone that they were already scumreading Tweet slot, while also casting suspicion on the wagon, possible set up for the next day.

Followed by Datisi and Ausuka hopping on fairly quickly:

VOTE: tweet

y-2

actually reading her iso this game, this feels really polarized, and the fact that she's so quiet and accepting of her wagon makes me feel like she has accepted her death. she was going mad in chara's folly. which maybe isn't a fair comparison considering she just repped in here, but uh yeah feeling this lethargic is scummy anyways i think.

if she is scum, then i would not be surprised if she is being bussed and that feeling partly came from her teammates. this is moreso post hoc thinking after seeing fire vote there, but i think it could have some merit either way.

i don't think i have enough brainpower for this game day to actually do some Deep Thinking about fire's alignment, but it is only day two, there is tomorrow.

VOTE: tweet

Tweet does rhyme with yeet actually

I guess I could post more stuff today but I'm lazy and like... Tweet is in her scum meta apparently and CSF is self resolving... Whatever

Then we have the unvote:

UNVOTE:

Didn't we agree to not do the L1 thing because enchant.

I guess the main question is, is this performative? I feel if I were scum I'd just stay on MT here so I have my nice lil spot on the wagon I worked hard all day to earn. What does scum!TSQ gain from unvoting here other than towncred for looking like they don't want to rush the day? Is that reason enough to unvote a wagon you know will flip red?

I guess typing this out I do feel it looks worse for TSQ than I had imagined, I could see scum doing that performative unvote, especially given this:

Frogsters unvote feels performative.

[GuiltyLion]

Also, since people are going back to the early game again:

also heya relly

hi! I think you're town because people scumread your entrance to the game in the same way I've seen people scumread you as town like 12 times

I don't have any strong scumreads except, like.... datisi? I sure hope the silent slots are scum

Nero harped on this a lot the whole game, how Relly refers to something that just wasn't happening (people scumreading skitter's entrance), it's simply not grounded in facts. Was Nero right about this being scum-indicative after all?

am I talking myself around back into Shea here based off DV's posts today?!?! stay tuned

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think anyone is obviously town anymore at this stage, whoever is last mafia remaining already survived two miselims and is playing a strong game (unless we're in the world where SK!Titus is coasting off of fortunate coincidences and faulty mech-spec by the town)

Ausuka's my strongest TR but that's primarily off of interactions with VPB on D1, and even that I am going to have to revisit and re-examine, so idk. if you have a reason why you think you're "obvious" town I'd like to hear it but it feels like not really a meaningful or genuine assertion here. I'm town but I can totally understand people finding reasons to be suspicious of me now that we're in 5p and the prior suspects flipped green

[GuiltyLion]

I feel the same, though I'm wishy washy on if it makes VPB scum or not

I changed my mind again

I feel like it's very unusual for mafia to describe themselves as wishy washy about their partner and being unapologetically so

It seems like a counterintuitive take for Relly to make and this reminds me why I thought he looked uninformed earlier

I think this is a decent point but I wouldn't weight this significantly above the totality of the rest of evidence

not trying to sway you either way as I'm still unresolved on DV vs TSQ, this is a point in TSQ's favor, but I don't think it never comes from scum

[GuiltyLion]

yeah 6 scum seems like it would be way too much and I also don't think the game has

felt

like a 6 scum game with how hard it was to secure consensus on pivotal eliminations in the midgame

especially since the vigs (if there are two) are gated, yes each are confirmable but functionally they behave as a single vig in terms of kill power

however I also don't think scum!Titus comes up with this theory? like this kind of paranoid logic seems more likely to come from her as town here

[GuiltyLion]

the whole D3 slog of dueling Smart vs Menalque wagons seems like it'd be good to reread, I need to do that

[GuiltyLion]

lol I was rereading my 5627 and I forgot about this post:

The dogpiling jokes aside I will give something_smart a chance to get involved in the game I suppose.

VOTE: Gamma

Gamma who are the scum and why

Marci

One of you/

obscure

humaneatingmonkey

And maybe someone else

wrt to obscure/TSQ this is potentially trying to set up a "one of [scum] or [scum] is scum" dynamic in her reads, to try to use a flip in either to clear the other one, giving her a trajectory to distance from each buddy simultaneously yet not needing to commit to eliminating both. I can't recall a reason to inherently think TSQ/obscure cannot be partnered at this stage in the game, it's not like they were pushing on each other especially notably or strongly, so it stands out as a particularly artificial thought, and I also don't see why Gamma would want to set up such a dynamic with a townie and a buddy

it's like... bad scum play, but I don't think Gamma is above bad scum play

[GuiltyLion]

when scamper fakes a gunsmith guilty on Menalque and Menalque plays it off by reiterating the VT claim:

scamper you ready for more votes on mena?

I am v confused

tbh me too. I thought it was a gambit, but I guess not!

does scum make these posts? again, I'm potentially vibe reading too hard, but these feel somewhat townie to me. idk when I'm scum I'm frequently too much of a coward to try to fake posts like these

that said, there is perhaps a universe where scum has a rolecop and got marci or Nero on N1 (explaining HEM's modified vig claim) and then scamper on N2, so they'd know he was bullshitting already.

if that had happened

, maybe scum!DV is confident enough to fake these posts. and it would explain why Menalque was able to bluff off the guilty so well imo. but they definitely strike me as more unlikely to come from scum who has no idea whether scamper has a Real Guilty

[GuiltyLion]

I will say that the presence of a gunsmith means the clear on datisi is not as strong as it was without that information. When I mod gunsmith I try to put in scum roles that don't have a gun so its not a full clear. I have no idea if doing that is normal or not.

On the other hand the two vigs already act as false positives and the roll is already balanced from that perspective mech wise so maybe it is closer to a full clear than it would be in a game I run.

That being said, I am shocked to learn that another person I was perpetually scum reading and told was town repeatedly by other people is scum.

Shocked I say.

blah this feels pretty townie too though

[GuiltyLion]

actually idk I could see that coming from scum who doesn't know that scamper is bluffing

like if scum knew scamper's role -> DV posts look worse
if scum had no idea whether scamper was lying -> TSQ posts look worse

[GuiltyLion]

some reaction tests are longer than others

...

is life just one long reaction test?

eee the joke in this one kinda gives me minor heebie-jeebies

[GuiltyLion]

Ausuka is super town around that whole situation though

I'd bet the game on Ausuka town I think. It's just every time I read their thoughts on anything throughout critical junctures of the game it feels so pure and genuine and uninformed. I'd be incredibly impressed if Ausuka scum

@Ausuka what do you think of this whole ass conversation:

hence why I'm not yelling at scamper about game throwing

This is a scum response.

hang on, explain this

I've seen the "I don't know why you're doing this town but you must have a good reason so I'm not accusing you of game throwing" response way more from scum than town. I feel like town has more of an inclination to get immediately angry whereas scum tries to remain calm and try to figure a way out. Shrug.

Specifically the verbiage "this is weird you're not throwing" to me comes from scum way more often then town in these spots, just as a personal experience sort of thing.

firstly, I am trying to turn over a new, chilled out leaf and to continue on my path to tranquility

secondly, this initially pinged me as v performative seeing as I was basically 100% dead there as scum and so calling out anything I said as "scummy" seemed redundant if you were legitimately convinced I was. idk how scum!me would be figuring out a way out there and so I couldn't see how you would think that's what I was doing, but if it's more that just the non-angry vibe was reminiscent of prior scum reactions I suppose that makes sense

I didn't have a particular reason when I did the thing, I was reacting. I saw a bunch of posts in the pedit of the iso dive I did on frogsterking, said "eh, those are probably just nonsense." and then came into the thread to see shit raining down from the sky. Then I reacted to that shit.

I think that post would really only be performative in the way you're suggesting if we're buddies though. Like if you're town and I'm scum why would I make that post?

because ironically I think that when scum are ~around~ at the time that someone is getting wagoned and they don't wanna duck thread I've often seen them go for statements like "this is a scum claim" "this always comes from scum" "this is a scum reaction" to have some involvement in the shindig and I guess sometimes to play into looking like they're uninformed?

theater? or is town!TSQ on the right track and scum!Menalque is defending

[GuiltyLion]

I thought the reaction to me after the reaction test was townie. I thought the post about not knowing their slot had already claimed is townie. (I know that's something that IS fakeable but I don't feel like many scum players would think to fake it in the moment.) I've liked his tone, though that's less of a big deal, and I liked how he seemed to be trying to read the reactions to him being reaction tested for alignment.

And the big thing with Obscure for me was just the lack of thread presence and seemingly only interested in his name which I think is something that is incredibly plausible to come from overwelmed town which is why I moved off it at the end of the day yesterday. I don't think there's a very concrete reason to scum read obscure so I am extremely open to seeing new things from mena and I've generally thought what I've seen has been pretty good.

hmmmmm I think these feel a bit more likely to come from someone uninformed of scum!Mena

I had the exact same thought about the "wait lol my slot claimed" post and I remember really liking that from TSQ at the time

[GuiltyLion]

gonna be around for a bit and rereading more of the game and most likely thought dumping some more takes into the thread

I think I'm leaning DV overall because on the whole I keep finding more things that prompt me to think town!TSQ but I don't really feel great about it, because there's always the world where that's just a function of volume of posts and thread presence. I think for TSQ to be scum they have to be really quite good at acting uninformed in both subtle and in-your-face ways, and good at consistently maintaining that persona throughout. but that's not impossible, which is why I'm not feeling great.

whereas DV is like... eh he hasn't done anything

wrong

that I feel good about nailing him on, he's just less involved overall and so the explanation in that world is that he's scum who's done exactly what he's needed to in order to pass and blend in and is now just getting POE'd out. but that's never a satisfying case when that's the best you have

[GuiltyLion]

Reading Ausuka's 6289 and then rereading some of that early D2 Shea/Gamma fight is also pushing me pretty solidly more to town!TSQ

like I know Shea's been harping the whole time on how it's wack to think they bussed Gamma in that manner but are these S-S interactions? hard to say yes right?

And now your scum team which you've now explicitly said was a team guess includes me and a person who basically no one had expressed any suspicion of until I brought it up in a game where the wolves just lost a member on N1.

Which doesn't make a whole ton of sense to me either.

What the hell are you talking about?

You do realize

I said “one of”, right?

nope, I missed that word. Genuine apologies. Point completely rescinded.

Ok I actually did the thing and briefly skimmed gammas iso in white flag which is the team mafia game she is referring to.

(viewtopic.php?t=74687&f=127&st=0&sk=t&s ... er_sort=Go) for anyone wondering.

And I have to say...I find your day one play there completely different in a lot of different ways. And the most obvious one is that you DO seem invested in finding scum and flipping someone you're suspicious of. You DO seem invested in engaging with people about their reads. You DO feel like you're trying to scum hunt.

Now, its a team mafia game so everyone amps up their tryhard a little bit for those games so I don't think its like definitive or anything, but its the game YOU brought up as the one where I should remember as you playing like you're playing here as town is normal.

And its simply not. It's not remotely the same. It's not even close.

No, wrong. I specifically said TM 2021. You were in that one, though not in my game, but know FOR A FACT you were there!

plus this post, which is especially wild to write if you know for a fact that HEM is scum:

Gamma why is HEM scum

he's basically felt fake all game to me, between the overly verbose post I called out early and his approach to me
there's also a slight meta aspect, he feels rather reactive, which I attribute to his scumgame

It feels like you're making a squishy meta feels case here that involves actively ignoring a lot of what HEM is actually doing in order to accomplish it, so the read doesn't feel real to me either.

To me, looking through HEMs posts theres a lot of stuff which is interesting novel thoughts on game and relation to the alignment of others that would be really strange to come from a scum player and hard to fake because they involve breaking the flow of the game which in some cases would be detrimental to scum.

UNVOTE:

while i am still very suspicious of the relly slot i feel like i dont need to dogpile someone who has just replaced in

i wonder if this is a direct reaction to TSQ mentioning that scum loves to dogpile replacements

Take this post, for example. Why would scum HEM feel the need to point this out at this time? Unless you think he and I are buddies there's very little reason that HEM would think this is a good topic of conversation for town to take, because it detracts from the momentum of the suspicion of me. Like, I guess you are saying that you think HEM and I are buddies because its a game solve but when I read back on HEMs iso theres a lot of stuff like this that individually seems like pointing out little things that are interesting for the town to think about.

I don't see a lot of scum motivation for a lot of HEMs posting, and I think its hard to fake because its not like not doing this stuff will get you scum read and the effects on the game are net negative for scum.

[GuiltyLion]

do you guys think its only 4 scum, right?

idk, why does that matter?

idk we have a lot of power so far.

it matters to me

does this mean anything with regard to Titus

it's late and I'm sleepy but there's no way this is a SK feeling out when to kill scum, right? probably just town feeling out when to kill scum?

every now and then I have these moments where I'm like "blah what if BOTH TSQ/DV are town, it must be Titus!" but it just feels throwingly bad to entertain that narrative when she's killed a mafia

Titus can you be a bit more proactive with your solve here? any thoughts on the pushback on your 6 scum theory? who do you think is town remaining?

[GuiltyLion]

I very seriously believe this might point to Shea as scum

Who did status replace?

can you round out that thought a little bit more

obscure did attempt to play up the newbie card & dumbtell several times so I think I get what you're suggesting, but isn't it pretty conceivable that he could post that about town!TSQ?

[GuiltyLion]

also DV, assuming you are town:

I also am more worried about deasvail the more he continues to just exist on the periphery.

YES

are they still here? This was my scumread yesterday I felt good about.

Dan and Deas I could both see as scum.

is this scum coordinating together? this kinda feels to me more like scum reacting to and amplifying a townpost. I guess it's not impossible scum would see a buddy pushing on a townie and give them a +1 but vibewise I feel like that's less likely. Like the enthusiastic "YES" feels like it's meant more to buddy TSQ in my mind

[GuiltyLion]

Spoiler: deasvail

my impressions of DV have soured. I had originally skimmed his spat with GL and just thought ooh towny posts but revisiting them I feel that they drift a little too performative

I don't feel satsified, but there's nothing more I want to explore right now. I'll need to sit on the read and see if I still the same way after that.

Happy to engage on anything that you/anyone else needs from me though

there's just moments like these that make me feel like DV is trying to put on the air of having shifting reads and thoughts without actually having a towny trajectory. Like he's a little too conscious about needing the "correct" amount of time and space to change his read on GL when I feel like the more towny response would've just been to not care about it and be like oh okay I'm feeling better about you now GL.

I mean maybe DV really just needs time to "sit with his read"

I will be able to catch up properly within the next 24 hours but my initial feels are that Dann is town. Do I have reason for it? Not really, but maybe I will later.

Conman I could go either way on and I’ll need to do a bit more of a read.

I’m stiiill comfortable with the vote on GL and a lot of his posts make me twitch a bit but I’m not going to be passionately advocating for that until I’ve had a chance to really think about it because obviously confirmation bias can be a thing

VP I also had the thought of a lot of GL’s posts being busy work, but I don’t think it’ll take off Day 1 (

also I probably need more time on that read

)

Leaning town on GL too because it felt like he was trying to stir up suspicion on GL by piggy-backing on my (likely incorrect) read.

Twice more throughout the day DV reiterates that he needs more time with the read, and then he opens today by saying he's town leaning GL because scum agreed with him. It just feels like DV was looking for a reason to back out of that read and finally found one if that makes sense? It fits the overall profile of scum who has chosen a high-profile player to hard push in order to look towny a lot more than say Ausuka's push on Datisi. The trajectory just seems faked?

idk

@DV

I'd like to hear from you more on why Baltar made you swing your read in the opposite direction. Because it feels like none of your actual concerns with GL was addressed, you just kept claiming you might be wrong.

The VP flip is new information that honestly supersedes my original read. I obviously had reasons for suspecting GL but it’s not like those concerns are ever going to be “addressed”. It’s a matter of me deciding “do my reasons for suspecting GL still hold up, or have subsequent events proven that my read is probably wrong?”

Dann, if I were town here, would you expect me to still be scumreading GL? Do you still scumread GL?

quoted because
a) Decent Dann case on DV that I forgot about
b) I don't think this is a straight up scumslip, because I think it's pretty clear DV is trying to ask Dann something akin to "why do you think town!me should still be scumreading GL", but it's definitely phrased awkwardly. Like "if I were town here" is just a clumsy clause in that sentence, even if I don't think DV is

claiming

scum I feel like it's definitely an unnatural way to phrase it. Maybe he meant "if [you knew] I were town here", but then it's still in a subjunctive tense, idk.

brain is desperately trying to latch onto something I can feel good about

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: DeasVail

anyway I was reading between 3099 and 3245 to get context for this naked vote, but it's ultimately pretty random. like obscure has DV as lean mafia on D1, doesn't really address it at all on D2 until TSQ shades DV and obscure has that quote post where he agrees, then obscure votes it 200 posts and several hours later, when other votes are happening not-on-DV. I can imagine it being the result of scum considering whether to actually vote their partner or not. and then he just peaces out from the thread for 2 days. if it's meant to aim for a miselim, he didn't push it at all until much later in the day

[GuiltyLion]

Something_Smart (6): GuiltyLion, Frogsterking, scamper, fireisredsir, Ydrasse, humaneatingmonkey
obscure (3): Dannflor, Thestatusquo, Ausuka
Thestatusquo (2): Gamma Emerald, Datisi
DeasVail (1): obscure
marcistar (1): DeasVail
Dannflor (1): Nero Cain
Not voting (3): Something_Smart, marcistar, Enchant
Day 1 will end in (expired on 2022-09-18 20:44:00)
Mod notes: this was right near my school

who is S_S in for? i'll ISO them first.

@DV he also did this for town

[GuiltyLion]

hey all, just a quick check in, I'm flying out of town this evening so don't have time to really do much today yet but hoping to have some mafia time on the flight, but I've read along

Ausuka I think with respect to your most recent post, if I had to lim between Relly and DV, Relly definitely seems scummier, I follow along with what you're calling out (and I should also reread that scamper case). but then there's all this stuff from TSQ that I like and feels less likely to come from scum unless they're playing really well. which makes me kinda worried as usually early game is best for finding useful info but we can't get any evolution/explanation from Irrelephant on how he was playing, and maybe he was just having a bad game and I shouldn't discount a wealth of stuff from TSQ that I like?

I had also thought previously Irrelephant's overall trajectory on VPB doesn't seem like he's playing to an agenda or knows VPB is scum, but I know a number of players (many of them dead townies) didn't really agree with that. and I do think 883 is probably the single most alarming read, especially knowing skit slot is scum. like even if people are mistakenly scumreading skitter's entrance, that doesn't actually

make

her town and Relly should know better?

definitely want to hear DV articulate his thoughts on 190-200, I will reread those pages again myself but I don't remember anything especially indicative from there that I found

[GuiltyLion]

VC 1.8
Eiralox (4): humaneatingmonkey, fireisredsir, GuiltyLion, Irrelephant11
Irrelephant11 (4): scamper, Datisi, Nero Cain, Aristeia
Firebringer (2): Ydrasse, VP Baltar
GuiltyLion (2): skitter30, DeasVail
humaneatingmonkey (1): Gamma Emerald
skitter30 (1): Firebringer
Datisi (1): Ausuka
Not voting (5): ConManMick, marcistar, xofelf, Dunnstral, Eiralox
Day 1 will end in [Deadline is paused at 8 days and 4 hours]. With 20 alive, 11 is needed to lim and 10 to no lim.
Mod notes: truck driver got cleanly storrowed

Wagon noted. No content to add for probably 24 hours sorry. Feel free to keep voting me though I like when I know a wagon is on town, makes vca easier

this feels rather awkward

VOTE: eiralox
idrg what this wagon is about but I'll give it a try

one other point is that Eira/Irrelephant wagons are tied here (and if we assume town!Titus, Relly wagon is completely pure, Eira wagon has HEM scum on it) and yet Gamma distances Irrelephant and then votes Eira wagon alongside him instead??

[GuiltyLion]

it seems every time I look at a slice of this game I find reasons to reverse my reads on DV/Shea in whatever direction they were most recently trending

[GuiltyLion]

sorry I wound up watching the World Series and then sleeping on my flight instead of playing zz

ok I know no one wants to talk about it but I'm gonna talk about it

Why didn't nero either cc kitty scratch or like shoot her

I think the enchant shot there is massively odd

I know he's not here to talk about it and that's frustrating and replacements suck as a mechanic but like. Does anyone have an explanation that makes sense

My read on it is that if he's town, Nero wanted to play hero ball. He could aim to stay undetected by scum as long as possible, knowing that either he would die and expose CSF via flip, or CC/shoot her whenever it gets to be the critical juncture in the game. Which N2-N4 was not, necessarily.

I think that's where this post comes from:

do you guys think its only 4 scum, right?

I considered whether this was a SK being a bit cheeky in thread but I think the more likely scenario is Nero wanted to make sure he wasn't fucking up by possibly letting scum get majority earlier than he intended.

It's not how I'd play the role, a dead mafia is always valuable and I'd take the gimme scum shot on N2 every time, but maybe Nero thought he could shoot a different scum and/or hunt CSF for associatives and be even more valuable that way, a 'solo carry' performance if you will. He strikes me as someone who would be confident enough to play that way

[GuiltyLion]

I also think this is an attempt at dumb-telling to throw scum off the trail

How did everyone know csf was an even night vig?

if Nero is really a third party SK, he'd be inclined to take CSF's claim at face value and not post this, right? especially because he'd be locked into never CC'ing her at any point, regardless of whether she's town or scum?

[GuiltyLion]

I have a thought on DV's 9102 but I feel it'd be correct to let Shea respond first

[GuiltyLion]

Also GL I’m not really sure what response you’re expecting from Shea, but I would be eager to discuss at whatever point you feel motivated to

I'll definitely bring it up, it's just one of those things that if I bring it up first it will poison the well in terms of whether it's relevant in getting a read on Shea

[GuiltyLion]

Also GL I’m not really sure what response you’re expecting from Shea, but I would be eager to discuss at whatever point you feel motivated to

alright so now that we got a response from Shea, my main source of doubt with the shifts on Obscure & Gamma that you pointed out was that I have noticed a pattern throughout the game of Shea voicing a lot of projected confidence in their reads that may not align with how confident those reads actually are. So when TSQ says something like this:

Honestly getting more pressure on obscure feeling like pulling teeth has me extremely convinced I'm right.

despite the word "extremely" being there, based on the summation of how they've talked about all their all of their reads this game (including ones on town as well), I am not sure if we should take Shea to

literally

mean "extremely". If Shea's expressed scumread on Obscure was more nebulous/unsure than they let on then the pattern you called out might be the behavior of town picking up a real signal but then getting distracted onto other suspects/targets.

I was waiting to see if Shea would say anything in this regard, that projected confidence in reads is not always actual confidence in reads, which they sort of indirectly did in point 1)? Like it's interesting Shea misunderstood you there, right? you were accusing them of specifically acting certain yet not behaving like they were certain, but Shea thought you were accusing them of simply

being

uncertain. I am not sure if Shea is intentionally manipulating/reframing the argument there, this is kind of an example of what I was talking about in 9034 about TSQ behaving "uninformed in a subtle way", like if scum!TSQ knows you are right here I feel like they'd address your point more directly.

let me know if that makes sense

[GuiltyLion]

So like, I think what you're picking up on is I have a lot of uncertainty here and I'm trying to think if there is any way I can not lose this game to scum!you or scum!gl in the event that DV is town. Because similarly to not seeing a world where DV lives tomorrow if I'm limmed today I don't see a world where I live tomorrow if DV is town and limmed today and I know that in that world town loses.

I can sympathize with your feeling here, but given your overall view of the gamestate, shouldn't the main concern be losing to scum!Titus? or are you assuming she still dies tonight?

[GuiltyLion]

my big worry is that Titus is SK and TSQ/DV is a T-T and we have nothing to really nail Titus on because SK is genuinely unaligned with group scum and there's an equally compelling mech/town explanation for her role. I don't know how I could resolve that worry/concern unless Titus starts doing a ton of solving here, but I also know it's a game and she's got RL to deal with

[GuiltyLion]

So like, I think what you're picking up on is I have a lot of uncertainty here and I'm trying to think if there is any way I can not lose this game to scum!you or scum!gl in the event that DV is town. Because similarly to not seeing a world where DV lives tomorrow if I'm limmed today I don't see a world where I live tomorrow if DV is town and limmed today and I know that in that world town loses.

I can sympathize with your feeling here, but given your overall view of the gamestate, shouldn't the main concern be losing to scum!Titus? or are you assuming she still dies tonight?

I feel like i have been extremely worried about Titus?

in general yeah, but in that post specifically you're also talking about scum!Ausuka and scum!GL scenarios, and while I get the "I don't want to be the f3 miselim and lose the game" feeling, you're gonna have to bank the game on at least one person being town, you can't cover every hypothetical scum. so I guess I just thought it was a lil weird you're talking in the general sense about what if other assumed-town players are scum but not more worried about Titus specifically

[GuiltyLion]

@Titus I had thought about that earlier, but I checked the win con for town (quoted from the sample VT role pm)

You win if all threats to the town are dead

and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

in the 3p scenario, if we lim wrong, wouldn't you and scum cross-kill, resulting in a scum win?

[GuiltyLion]

sorry, my wedding is Saturday so it's been crunch mode. I've been hoping to magically feel better about making a decision here but I think no matter what I'm gonna have cold feet

From the totality of everything I'm still leaning DV I think, mainly because as we've touched on there's multiple interactions with Shea and flipped scum that seem unlikely to be theater, and I'm not able to find as many of these with DV. Of course Shea's engagement with mafia is not impossible to be theater so that's where I have reservations, but on the whole it feels like DV has more partner equity and has played more cautiously around them. I'll try to do one last sanity check reread of DV's ISO before voting in the next 6-8 hours, but that's where my head is at and @Ausuka please shout if you disagree and/or there's anything further you want to discuss

DV if you're town and this is wrong, I am deeply sorry for not having the time to be around more this day phase, I wish I could have done a lot more deep dives & rereading on this game

[GuiltyLion]

alright, I did skim through DV's D1 and D2 ISO again but I don't think I can find anything that will convince me not to vote here

VOTE: DeasVail

please let this be right

[GuiltyLion]

It should be a hammer, yah.

DV, were you scum??

[GuiltyLion]

[GuiltyLion]

MAAAN

I hate this game it is causing me ANXIETY

I want to believe it's Titus cause tbh that's the only way this shit really makes sense to me

[GuiltyLion]

But if scum!tsq wins that's also a throw

BAH

[GuiltyLion]

hi hello I am now married and still not scum

[GuiltyLion]

I'm gutted that this game is gonna be on my shoulders

I'm still a bit busy today & tomorrow with wedding wrap up stuff but I have this whole week off of work and come Monday evening I am doing nothing but chilling with my family so I'll commit to a deep reread then

there's a lot of things I really felt were uninformed & wildly impressive play from Ausuka if scum, but in 3p I gotta Consider All Things so I promise I will do that as soon as I have time

[GuiltyLion]

Shea, why did you vote first? what made you sure it was Ausuka?

I feel like usually if you're the most suspected townie in ELO it's a good play to try to wait at least a little bit and see if you can bait out a scum vote? like mathematically it's better for town if scum votes first because it means the T-T vote situation is impossible, so I wanna understand what made you vote so quickly here.

[GuiltyLion]

sorry, please no prod! I will start doing things tomorrow

I'm not sure I will even need much from each of you, but will raise questions if I have them

[GuiltyLion]

I have been slowly rereading the game btw

it's been a long time since I've held the hammer in ELO I am not sure I remember what best to do, I tend to really not try to put stock into whatever's said today because competent scum are usually fine with a 1v1 at this point and often good at saying what you want to hear

if I'm struck with inspiration I'll post but right now I am just reading and thinking and trying to be as open minded as possible

[GuiltyLion]

"really not try" should be more "really try not"

[GuiltyLion]

ok so I got through 75 pages and need to stop for now, I will continue this tomorrow

so as not to leave you two in total silence as I make my decision, here's the high level things I am currently thinking about, in case you want to add thoughts

- I still think Ausuka/VPB look very unpartnered. VPB wasn't expecting to die N1 so I don't think he is likely to be hardcore distancing/bussing with anybody he doesn't need to early game, and same goes to a hypothetical scum!Ausuka. Yet VPB picks a fight with Ausuka early over Ausuka's Nero townread, and then just keeps pushing it and pushing it. And continuously poking Ausuka throughout D1 even after the thread moves on. It stands out pretty differently from how VPB interacts with like, HEM or Gamma, where conversations are pretty minimal and even when there is fighting there's not a lot of sustained back and forth. I find it much easier to imagine Ausuka being a slot VPB was using to pretend to sort rather than a theater buddy that happened to be far more effective distancing than he achieved with his other buddies.

- Gamma's reactions around Irrelephant wagon and pressure are weird. Scamper has the whole case on Relly in 1294 which Gamma mostly ignores. She makes a minor call out in 1431 but then votes Eiralox instead, despite not having anything to say about Eira and Irrel/Eiralox wagons being tied. Later, Irrelephant votes Gamma (1508), which Gamma ignores until 1810. It's odd to me that Gamma then goes with the "what is the case on Irrel?" approach when if Irrel is both a) town and b)

voting Gamma

, I feel Gamma would be more likely to discredit/suspect Irrel as a viable miselim or scumread. Scamper calls Gamma's attention to his case on irrel in 1812/1817, which Gamma largely ignores other than a very tepid 1824 - which is a reaction to Irrelephant's reaction to the case, still not a direct engagement with scamper's case itself at all. Gamma goes on to then ignore Irrel discourse again for the foreseeable future.

- I haven't gotten to this in my reread yet, but I still think fundamentally that post where TSQ forgot that CSF was a un-CC'd vig is altogether more likely to come from scum than town genuinely trying to sort the game. That point is gonna weigh pretty heavy on me I think.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm still rereading, on page 120 now

do both of y'all really have like, nothing to say?

I'll try to wrap my reread up today or tomorrow and vote, while still highlighting if anything remarkably new/different stands out to me. Scamper on D2 is currently doing a lot towards pushing me further towards a TSQ vote.

[GuiltyLion]

yeah, it feels bad but I think the biggest reasons I currently have to vote TSQ are the way VPB played around your slot and the way Irrel played + the way Gamma played around Irrel

none of which TSQ can answer for

I did think TSQ/Gamma seemed originally unpartnered and I'm reading through that section of the game now, but it may have just been deliberate, extensive theater. especially if mafia team thought Gamma's interactions with Relly were bad and Gamma was going down

[GuiltyLion]

I'm reading along still

idk if it's really helping me all that much at this point

I'm terrified I'm gonna vote wrong

Ausuka why do you think TSQ killed Dann over you a few nights ago? you've been universally townread pretty much the whole game yet here you are in 3p ELO, what do you make of that

[GuiltyLion]

In general i think i played pretty badly this game, I don't think I got much right after the confrontation with baltar d1

tbh this is another thing I'm kinda weighing as to why you're town, you almost defend or ignore scum!HEM or scum!Gamma too much at certain points in a way that I feel reflects someone who is not trying to maneuver off of their flips

[GuiltyLion]

ok I'm probably just gonna hammer TSQ soon, I apologize for dragging this out but rereading the game has been an absolute slog

[GuiltyLion]

I decided that I think ausuka has been riding an early town read the whole game while basically doing nothing to actually hunt whereas you have seemed genuinely interested in solving the alignments in the game.

one thing I'm thinking about is that this is incongruent to your reads in D2-D3-D4 timeframe when you consistently had Ausuka townier than me and kept throwing some suspicion my way, saying I was floating on the periphery at one point

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: thestatusquo

whichever of you is scum please don't make me conftown in ELO again -.-

I'll be around to take all the Ls in postgame if this is wrong

[GuiltyLion]

was it really Ausuka? ;A;

[GuiltyLion]

Players have 24 hours to request redactions, then I’ll release the PT’s.

can you redact the post where I hammered TSQ

very well played mafia, Ausuka especially obviously. I really tried to convince myself that Ausuka might be scum, and I could see it on the later days, but so many small details in random posts, moments of acting uninformed, mirroring my thought processes, etc were present throughout their ISO I just couldn't get there overall. I remember there was one particular post where Ausuka said something about "throwing obscure in the same HEM pile of 'will have to die before endgame' " and it was so perfectly nonchalant. VPB deserves props for a good theater fight on D1 as well

[GuiltyLion]

thanks for modding T3, game was a long one and a lot of replacements but was a fun time, thank you for hosting

[GuiltyLion]

I remember there was one particular post where Ausuka said something about "throwing obscure in the same HEM pile of 'will have to die before endgame' " and it was so perfectly nonchalant

I was hoping someone would notice this!

Yeah thanks for modding T3 also

yeah honestly your D2-D3 play was so good IMO, you had a really nice progression/vote on obscure when DV was getting wagoned