open 894: near vanilla (game over)

[Aisa]

VOTE: dannflor

worried he might be a deep wolf

oh no! it can be difficult to worry that someone is a deep wolf. do you want to talk about it?

[Aisa]

Also, hi everyone! Is anyone new to the site or to the game of mafia?

[Aisa]

Wow! That's so exciting. What do you think of mafiascum.net so far?

[Aisa]

Oh yeah? I'm actually getting slight scum pings from T3

[Aisa]

Oh yeah? I'm actually getting slight scum pings from T3

Go on.

Is it bad to already have a sr?

may i inquire why you scumread bella?

"Is it bad to already have a tr" indicates to me that Bella has a degree of self-consciousness and feels the need to ask permission from the thread to express her thoughts.

I feel like the spirit behind the "is it bad to already have a SR?" is very slightly um
polemical? accusatory for the sake of stating a hot take?

It reads slightly forced

[Aisa]

T3 is probably town.

Curious to hear why you think so

[Aisa]

Let me put it this way: In a vacuum, statements like “Is it bad to have a tr this early” are >rand scummy. Obviously there are factors that may affect said vacuum, but as a general rule, your statement is more likely to come from scum. Also, I’d be willing to bet that the townread you, if town, have, isn’t particularly deep and is just a general meta/viberead. I

could

but I guess I didn’t really feel the need to. Does that make sense?

Ohooh really interesting reaction which I'm tempted to say is towny

[Aisa]

You could guess who! That'd be fun;)

I'd be kinda curious to hear T3's guess though

T3 is probably town.

Curious to hear why you think so

Trying to jumpstart discussion in RVS, even if on a fairly reachy basis, feels fairly townie to me. In general I think scum are more likely to wait for other people to start pushing wagons rather than try to jumpstart one themselves. I also think the reachiness of it is actually +town since I feel like scum would probably be angling for a good first impression here.

I appreciate the reply! I think I disagree with most of this though lol

[Aisa]

T3 is probably town.

Curious to hear why you think so

Trying to jumpstart discussion in RVS, even if on a fairly reachy basis, feels fairly townie to me. In general I think scum are more likely to wait for other people to start pushing wagons rather than try to jumpstart one themselves. I also think the reachiness of it is actually +town since I feel like scum would probably be angling for a good first impression here.

I appreciate the reply! I think I disagree with most of this though lol

As both alignments I usually try to reach to start discussion. You modded that Estonia Micro Normal - I believe the one in which I figured out that ceejay and Eira were Masons, in which I was scum and did the same.

Excuse me

Sir
You just called my magnum opus "Estonia Micro Normal"
I really want that to be intentional

[Aisa]

T3 is probably town.

Curious to hear why you think so

Trying to jumpstart discussion in RVS, even if on a fairly reachy basis, feels fairly townie to me. In general I think scum are more likely to wait for other people to start pushing wagons rather than try to jumpstart one themselves. I also think the reachiness of it is actually +town since I feel like scum would probably be angling for a good first impression here.

I appreciate the reply! I think I disagree with most of this though lol

Could you describe what specifically you disagree with? Just to get a peek into your thought process.

I think I've seen scum do the things you describe enough times that I wouldn't be so quick to say they are town-indicative. For example, I think good scum players know not to come off as too polished or calculated and could try to imitate the "reachiness" of town.

Also, my impression of T3 as far as scum players go is that he enjoys the alignment and thrives off trying to look towny. I think he could definitely pull off the things you've listed as scum (and he's said so himself).

[Aisa]

Aisa

Why is T3's 15 bad vs no comment on Bella's 13?

I don't want to answer for Aisa but I think that because my statement in 15 was intended to play on Bella's statement in 13, my 15 could appear to be more abrasive, in a sense.

Yes, this basically. T3's post pinged me because 1. he was playing on Bella's post, which I thought could be a way to try to insert himself into the conversation as scum, 2. he came off as kinda serious and antagonistic while doing so, which again I thought could be scum-indicative

[Aisa]

that being said, i'll pose a question. if bella was new to the site do you think this post of hers would be more or less scummy?

If Bella was new to the site then that post would definitely be more scummy.

Why?

[Aisa]

JupiterXV, do you have any previous experience playing mafia on a forum?

[Aisa]

Interesting; so it's more of a rxn-based meta?

I could see "reaction-based meta" as a good description for the way we get games started here. Generally we vote other slots at random until someone has an opinion on something someone else did and the discussion snowballs from there.

UNVOTE: Kurtapika

Im new to the game so struggling to get involved, but whilst weak my initial suspicions would be for T3.

I’ve found his posts to be the most defensive. Particularly 39.

I also don’t like 63. I don’t like that he answered for Asia, whilst saying not to answer for her. Asia has been prodding slightly at T3 and I’m conscious whether answering for her was almost doing her a favour to get her off his back. Almost a ‘look im on your side’.

This read could be completely off, but I’d be curious to know peoples thoughts.

I agree 39 could be a bit defensive. But, as with most things so far, it's hardly conclusive evidence! I'm not really sure what T3's alignment is yet myself. Is there anything that makes you think T3 might be town?

I definitely think playing mafia is something you learn by doing. It can be hard to know what to say if you're new to the game, but just share your thoughts with us as they come and we can discuss them (as you did just then!)

[Aisa]

Oh look! That's me they're talking about!

Aisa

Why is T3's 15 bad vs no comment on Bella's 13?

I don't want to answer for Aisa but I think that because my statement in 15 was intended to play on Bella's statement in 13, my 15 could appear to be more abrasive, in a sense.

Yes, this basically. T3's post pinged me because 1. he was playing on Bella's post, which I thought could be a way to try to insert himself into the conversation as scum, 2. he came off as kinda serious and antagonistic while doing so, which again I thought could be scum-indicative

What's your thought process behind viewing antagonism and a serious attitude as scummy?

So, I'm not sure this applies to T3 and I'm still weighing how I feel about him overall

I didn't have a very fleshed out thought process when I made the read. Sometimes you just see a post and think "oh that reminds me vaguely of what that scum player said in this other game", and boom, a tentative read is born.

If I were to speculate a bit on why antagonism and having a serious attitude could be scummy, I guess when you are scum you uhm, naturally see the town as your enemy and feel a bit disconnected from them? But depends a lot on the individual player

[Aisa]

Bella why do you think T3 is likely town?

[Aisa]

Bella why do you think T3 is likely town?

Black kinda said it but I expected scum to either go harder on the read, (i.e not saying that if I was new it would be scummier), or less hard (more appease-y, not ignoring me asking then to guess my tr), whereas what's they've done is explained a thought process and then moved on, especially because I was like 'ok cool'.i also don't think scum would draw attention to themselves over something that, whether T3 cared/knew about my meta or not, could really easily be disproven. Tldr their thought processes are clear and I can't see the utility in taking the approach they did for scum

Hmm
I kinda like the idea that scum could have been more appeas-y
Hmm

[Aisa]

What is this thing called a reed and where can I get one?

[Aisa]

One thing about Kurtapika's post is that as of this comment:

I'm mainly in agreement with shaddowez on Aisa, no comment on the others for now.

The only thing shaddowez had said about me was this:

Aisa

Why is T3's 15 bad vs no comment on Bella's 13?

And ehhh interesting that Kurtapika thought that was something worth voicing agreement with?

VOTE: Kurtapika
I don't completely dislike this wagon and I have nowhere better to put my vote, so

[Aisa]

List of my most important thoughts so far:

- I have Projectry as a town lean so far
- JupiterXV also has that one very towny post, but my estimate of their towniness goes down if they have mafia experience from other places
- I kinda think Titus is a little towny so far? I've

definitely

not read her wrong before
- I don't think OutworldER is necessarily

evil

, but I disagree with the townreads they're gotten so far
- I think 118 might mean Bella and T3 are not scum together

[Aisa]

- I kinda think Titus is a little towny so far? I've definitely not read her wrong before
- I don't think OutworldER is necessarily evil, but I disagree with the townreads they're gotten so far

Can you elaborate on these two reads?

Titus: vibes. I have this theory that she sounds a bit more agenda-y and calculated as scum. In this game so far she seems to be mostly chilling.
OutworldER: all he's done so far is ask questions. Which is great! But I don't feel like it's enough to give someone a townread. I'd like to see how his reads evolve.

[Aisa]

Also, my impression of T3 as far as scum players go is that he enjoys the alignment and thrives off trying to look towny. I think he could definitely pull off the things you've listed as scum (and he's said so himself).

wait, what...... you are new to the game right?

I've been around the site fairly consistently since 2022... I would say I haven't quite reached "old fossil" status yet but I don't consider myself new

Nono in 94, I don’t see what you see with regard to T3. In fact its seems like a hurried list of things to do with no substance, why?

I kinda think Titus is a little towny so far? I've definitely not read her wrong before

How do you get Titus as town on so little interaction? Even if you have a read on their meta?

From my understanding, that little interaction

is

the reason for the meta based town read.

Yeah. As I've mentioned briefly, I get good vibes from Titus so far. It's a weak read, which is why I said

a little

towny.

- JupiterXV also has that one very towny post, but my estimate of their towniness goes down if they have mafia experience from other places

@Aisa

- are you talking about 69? Also, same question as above with the additional thought of does anything in 159 sway you one way or the other?

I am talking about post 69, yes. I also think post 159 is quite towny. Despite the fact we now know JupiterXV has previous experience, I am inclined to read them as town so far, partly because of the effort that went into post 159 and the fact it seems towny to me generally.

[Aisa]

I might swap Titus out for Afrayed as my whimsical spur of the moment townread

[Aisa]

honestly it's pretty interesting considering how you view them as performative- could you explain more on that point? i think their straightforwardness reads as a bit more genuine to me imo. the lack of content is actually a bit of a red flag that i hadn't exactly noticed, though i suppose it could be excused by the fact that people have generally been pushing them for a handful of pages and maybe this is to be expected?

it can mostly be distilled to the fact that T3's espoused motivation for his opening posts was to "spark discussion," presumably to get the game going and find scum

basically all of his posts after that point was focused on self defense or other contentless questioning

I think T3 is capable of sparking discussion much more concretely and usefully as town which is why his claim of wanting to spark discussion reads as performative to me

I like this case and I'd be interested to see what T3 has to say about it
Alternatively if replying directly to Dann's case is boring I'd be interested in T3's reads so far

VOTE: T3 why not

[Aisa]

Could you describe what specifically you disagree with? Just to get a peek into your thought process.

What's your thought process behind viewing antagonism and a serious attitude as scummy?

Aisa

Why is T3's 15 bad vs no comment on Bella's 13?

Can you elaborate on these two reads?

How do you get Titus as town on so little interaction? Even if you have a read on their meta?

@Aisa

- are you talking about 69? Also, same question as above with the additional thought of does anything in 159 sway you one way or the other?

why do you read effort as towny?

Spoiler: you guys so far

[Aisa]

Ok, serious answers time

I am talking about post 69, yes. I also think post 159 is quite towny. Despite the fact we now know JupiterXV has previous experience, I am inclined to read them as town so far, partly because of the effort that went into post 159 and the fact it seems towny to me generally.

why do you read effort as towny?

To rephrase slightly: I think your particular brand of effort in 159 is towny.

Obviously both town and scum can make an effort, but I think the sort of long, stream of consciousness post that is 159 is more likely to be town effort. IMO there are a lot of scum players who want to post as little as they can get away with. And when a player is comfortable with playing scum and wants to put effort into a scum game, I think there are other places that effort can go that are not... writing walls of text.

So Aisa, your response to fairly straight forward questions is to post a video that doesn’t give an answer, I haven’t watched it all the way through but I get the gist of it. Sadly it strikes me as a somewhat superfluous action. But ok fair enough and noted.

If you look at my ISO you'll see that I had previously answered every question in that post (at least I hope) except JupiterXV's 226, which I have just addressed now.

[Aisa]

I've been around the site fairly consistently since 2022... I would say I haven't quite reached "old fossil" status yet but I don't consider myself new

Ok got it, so getting back to your post 52 what’s your take on T3 now? I see your vote at 192 . Are you using your previous other game reads/feel for T3 to guide your vote?

My vote on T3 is in post 196.

My take on T3 hasn't changed since I placed the vote yesterday. I am pretty undecided and think having some more content from T3 will be helpful when he can get around to it. I voted T3 as I thought there potentially was something to Dann's case on him. As far as page 7 cases go, I think it's a pretty good case. I agree T3's posting up to that point had been mostly focused on answering questions and defending himself, and that this is a little inconsistent with his intent of "sparking discussion". However, the game hasn't been going for that long and there may also be other reasons for his play so far.

I believe this is the first game I am in with T3. I've modded a game with him in it (he was scum). I know enough about him to know I shouldn't underestimate his ability as scum, but that's the only meta / knowledge on T3 I am using so far.

I haven't completely absorbed the newest ~7 pages of the game and my thoughts may change when I have.

[Aisa]

Bella's posts make me think "oooh, town!" until I get to another one where she talks about me

tbf I don't recall her as town ever having a read on me that wasn't conflicted

[Aisa]

Sorry, no, I'm saying that she's had similar reads on me as town in the past

What I dislike is that she seems to agree with kurtapika about this:

Aisa I feel the most uneasy about, part in due to that and the other in that her posts scan as either opportunistic or overly middleman to me (I don't see anything 'interesting' about the reaction mentioned in 43, for instance, it and her overall vibe feels like TMI attempting to consistently stay within uncertain grounds). Given her apparent overwhelming townread, I grant that this might be a case of my just being unfamiliar with her meta, as most people have been making mention to it in reference to reading her.

In my opinion this is not a good take, of course I'm biased

[Aisa]

Urgh
I think she's slightly more likely to be scum but urgh

[Aisa]

I said I didn't like the sheepiness of your vote the most, talk to me about that?

Where did you say that? I can't find it in your ISO

Why shouldn't I sheep a case if I see it and I like it? I literally just don't have any better ideas right now. Maybe I will have better ideas after I've had a little time to stew.

I suppose that from the perspective of someone who is trying to read me it's hard to differentiate "sheeping" from "using sheeping as an excuse". What do you think is a better vote than T3? If it helps I'm prepared to either switch to that or explain why I don't want to switch.

It's the middleman bit that I vibe with of that quote, not the rest: I do feel you've been a bit vanilla with your takes

So, I'm not sure if the issue is that I'm too on the fence about everything, if the reads I have are too vanilla, or both

To be clear, here is my current readslist:
{Jupiter, Projectry}
{Afrayed}
{everyone else}

If that's close to what you were thinking, then yeah, I suppose it's a fairly vanilla readslist, but I don't have any confidence in any other reads.

Is the issue that I'm being too noncommittal? Well, I'm using my vote. T3 is a vote I stand behind even though it's a sheep.

[Aisa]

344

I guess it felt like it came out of nowhere: even in this post it feels noncommittal - it's someone else's case, but it's fine, but also you are commited to standing behind it...

I just remember you taking more stances than this.

It being someone else's case initially has no bearing on how committed I am to the vote.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "noncommittal". If you're worried that I'm being noncommittal strategically - because then it's easier for me to justify changing my mind, or justify voting whoever I want - I'm trying to reassure you that this is not the case by offering to do extra work. For example, if you suggest a slot you would like me to vote instead of T3, and I agree, surely this should help. If instead I refuse and decide to stay on T3, surely this should at least count as me taking a hard stance.

If your point is more of a generic point about my meta, and you just generally think that I'm being unusually hedgey, that's fine but it sounds like there's nothing I can say to change your mind beyond developing some reads.

I don't like sr-ing you for something that feels like a state of mind I could/have easily been in day one, but :s

That's ok! I don't mind you scumreading me, just don't completely understand why you're doing so at the moment

[Aisa]

Ok I have finally read or skimmed all the posts in the game
I've acquired tentative townreads on both Dann and Black. I know they are considered capable scum players and maybe I am playing with fire but still

[Aisa]

I can't work out if Jupiter admitting to lying twice in like five pages is as scummy as it seems....

FWIW I have been in situations where I skim a long wall and think "this seems towny", then three days later I reread it more carefully and have to grovel and apologise and explain why I am changing my mind

[Aisa]

i am personally not finding it hard to get scum reads this game

but I think people are struggling because they are almost exclusively pushing vanity wagons or lurkers for the sake of "pressure votes" instead of just compromising on wagon other people in order to get some ACTUAL pressure going

i think if people are having trouble finding scum reads it's kind of their own fault for not trying to pursue this more

Also boop
VOTE: kurtapika

[Aisa]

I am here to give this game some love

[Aisa]

I can't work out if Jupiter admitting to lying twice in like five pages is as scummy as it seems....

So (fully acknowledge I am 48 hours behind commenting on this) I think the whole debacle is kinda bizarre, but upon reflection I think I still townread Jupiter
Generally I would suggest not lying about having read a post but they've got enough other towny content that I'm willing to let this slide

Spoiler: Afrayed

I don't want to push T3 while he's on V/LA btw

I think Bellaphant's defense of T3 was scummy regardless of T3's alignment, and I want her to explain why shaddowez is her top town read.

I was wondering the same and then saw your post. I was going to leave it but I just had a thought. You say you don't want to push T3, and so you moved your vote, but then you say this to Jupiter

I don't think Titus is super town but I don't really think she's scummy either. Her tone/demeanor feels pretty relaxed in a good way imo. Her gut reactions/takes have seems pretty genuine and it seems like her posting hasn't really been geared towards trying to get town read, so I guess I slightly lean town on her?

I'm not saying don't vote her Jupiter but of your two scum reads I view shaddowez less favorably personally

why not put your vote back where it was on Shaddow?

Afrayed gave me a towny impression initially, but I'm starting to tinfoil him a bit and I don't like this post

Spoiler: another Afrayed post

So Aisa, your response to fairly straight forward questions is to post a video that doesn’t give an answer, I haven’t watched it all the way through but I get the gist of it. Sadly it strikes me as a somewhat superfluous action. But ok fair enough and noted.

Also not sure about this in hindsight
1. I have other superfluous posts. Other people have superfluous posts. Why is my video the only post he takes issue with?
2. He clearly is not familiar with my ISO up to this point because he says that my response to straightforward questionS is posting a video
But I had already answered all the questions referenced in 289 but one

[Aisa]

Bella's posting this game feels a bit different from what I am used to from

both

her town game and her scum game! Granted it's been a few months since we last were in a game together, I think
She seems a bit more engaged than what I am used to and looks a bit more towny

I feel a bit less indignant about her read on me now and am talking myself into townleaning her

[Aisa]

I don't townread Project as much as I used to due to recent discussion, but he still has a few posts that strike me as towny

[Aisa]

Yep that makes sense, sorry the post wasn't meant as a direct response to you, just similar timing

I've bee looking into Afrayed's push on Black a little:

I would appreciate it if people who think I am likely to be town would also vote kurtapika

we haven't had an actual wagon of more than like 3 votes take off and I think kurtapika is someone who has a very decent chance of flipping red

Not sure on this to be frank. I was liking their recent posts, But I'm more centred on exploring Black as a choice.

I will try to explain.

I was reading Black's earlier posts and I just got feeling I have seen this before. You will probably recall the game I am talking about, as you replaced her. The slot was scum and this is the game I referred to as your capable and very skilled attempt to confuse town and mislead them during the closing play of the game which nearly paid off but fortunately for town it didn't, the game was Open 888. (viewtopic.php?t=91754) That is why I asked the question in 325 . The posts she makes in that game and their content are very similar to her play in early in this game.

Then Bella's response and your response to that question, pretty much have started to confirm this thought in my mind. I know you both don't fully commit to saying she is scum, but your replies do push my thought that way. Am I right? I am beginning to feel I am, and would say it maybe worth a go.

VOTE: Black

I think I initially underestimated how similar Black's posting is between Open 888 and here and assumed Afrayed was being stubborn. I;ve just tkaen another look and at least superficially there are similarities
I'm not saying this makes Black scum but I feel more understanding of Afrayed's push on her now

[Aisa]

Like it's a fine for day one read? It's probs as strong as my knot read, which is very mid.

Yep that makes sense, sorry the post wasn't meant as a direct response to you, just similar timing

This was referring to Bella

Maybe one day I'll stop reflectively hitting the submit button until my post submits and think about whether I need to rephrase my posts in light of the preview lol

[Aisa]

Ooh Dann
Can you elaborate on how you feel about kurtapika a bit more?
Why did you say your scumread was cooling and why are you back on him now?

P-edit: lol some parts of the questions still stand

[Aisa]

Afrayed, your meta case on me is hot garbage. Out of all the content we have here you're choosing to place your vote based on my posts feeling the same as another game. Did you even look at more than just one game to see if that feeling is elsewhere? It's a half-baked read. You can't solve me based on meta and that is even more evident based on your conclusion. Many have tried and they have all failed. So please either come at me with a real case or do something useful with your vote

Using meta in some capacity is fine. Using it as the sole reason for a vote, and only comparing two games, is what annoys me. People don't use meta correctly. I could link to all the times people have used meta incorrectly on me in my signature and people would still be like "oh Black's playing like her scum game!!!"

Why would it not? It’s rather immaterial to be honest in my opinion. But if you really need an answer Then it did, but only for a moment.

Because your whole read is based on Open 888 and I didn't get defensive at all when being pushed as scum in that game. It doesn't feel like you are putting much thought into this read at all

My issue that black said she didn't like being metad and then referred to meta when saying about being defensive, which she just....is being

@Bella, I disagree
A good part of Black's point seems to be that she dislikes being meta'd because people get her meta wrong. I think that's consistent with then correcting / challenging Afrayed on his perception of her meta, as she does in post 603

[Aisa]

personally i want to move my vote to project but i'm also pretty convinced on kurtapika, especially considering the blatant lack of solving and scumreads coming from kurta (e.g i literally asked them hey what're your scumreads" and they didnt answer)

Are you talking about 545? Why disregard 566?

My biggest SR is the last person I want to engage with. It gives them the opportunity to look town. Doubly so when it's the absence of things that's scummy.

Don't like the crumbing, but this is a pretty straight forwardly town reaction so I suppose I wouldn't take anything from Titus here.

I guess the way the reads are falling at this point means if I get eliminated it would make things clearer for town D2 than otherwise, so in a way it could still be conducive.

Mainly on the front of potential town alignments

but I'm uneasy about the possibility of the theory becoming an easy excuse to bw miselim, if scum pick up on it, so I would be observing for that. Though at that point it wouldn't be my area to respond to.

Can you rephrase everything from Mainly onward? I read that 3 times and was huh?

Seconding Titus. It sounds like you think some people would be more / less suspicious after you flip town. Can you be more explicit about what the implications of your elimination would be?

[Aisa]

[...]

I haven't liked anything from Afrayed Knott at all. Can't find a solid line of organic reasoning from his posts and 601 would appear especially bad in this department. Tunnel and the protraction of the meta argument feels like scum feeling the need to lock into a push after being pointed out in 612. The last two pages aren't pinging as townie reaction most of all.

605 is towny and I'm not feeling shaddowez lim here, makes me think team is outside him. Thinking about scenarios for Afrayed Knott.

622 feels like it's jumping onto the same line of reasoning, with Project presenting as a potential third.

Could be scum with T3 or Aisa depending on flip but neither have said anything in response. Nono is also possible and feels likely.

The entirety of Project's argument against Skygazer, and looking at potential deliberacy on his part in 663 (perhaps more so Project's 684 in response, cited again as the last paragraph in 726) makes me extremely interested in Afrayed's flip. ISO mainly has neither make mention of each other other than to reiterate points and potentially preemptively to emphasise on Project's defence of unfamiliarity.

632 feels like something of an absurd conclusion to come to considering VC and the relative trajectory of the thread not undergoing a major change since then but I don't think there's scum in this anyway. The response as quoted in 707 is giving the opposite impression with Project's assumption just looking bad.

Tentative on Jupiter but their engagement with the Skygazer situation has been giving a slight tr and I'm in agreement with 695 on the mentioned posts.

Can you also clarify the bolded? What is the "same line of reasoning" project is jumping onto in 622?
You seem to think Project could be the third person on a scumteam with Afrayed Knott, but who is the second?

[Aisa]

Ooh Dann
Can you elaborate on how you feel about kurtapika a bit more?
Why did you say your scumread was cooling and why are you back on him now?

P-edit: lol some parts of the questions still stand

761 is not good

it feels like someone narrating the game from the sidelines rather than actually playing the game, which I think comes from scum a lot more of the time

stuff like:

"Now that the activity's sorted. Going to be looking at the backlog for individual posts here."

is performative in the type of way I see from scum a lot, basically narrating the background processes that are going on so that people know you are having Real Townie Thoughts

that post just had me reread him and largely I like the original wagon composition on Kurtapika so I think it's a good bet

I'm going to respond to this and also ramble about Kurta for a bit.

My reaction to your case is that I don't completely disagree. I've been a wall-posting scum player a couple times and I see where you're coming from with respect to their posting potentially being performative. Kurta's clearly writing in a very deliberate and measured way.

I also find that their lack of a clear direction or purpose in the game could come from scum. (Feels a little ironic that they accused me of being "overly middleman" when I'm having similar problems reading them.) Posts 566 and 761 seem like the best we have in terms of updated reads. Looking at 566:

Spoiler:

gun to my head given I've expressed not having substantial scumreads multiple times...? I'd only have conjecture dependent off flips in that case, since I'm kind of forced to work backwards with finding a team outside of current trs.

shaddowez's 209 being a point of discussion makes me think if he flips scum it's only going to be with T3, otherwise if T3 is town so is shaddowez. Dannflor has been consistently a tr for me but if shaddowez is scum that's less of a certain thing for him. Although I'm still on the fence about Aisa, that's a potential third option if none turn up from the lurkers. Similar situation for an Afrayed Knott flip but evidently neither him or shaddowez are scum with Jupiter.

I haven't liked Jupiter's responses the past few pages. Can you tell me what about Dannflor's push was becoming threatening if you townlean him in 264?

Their style seems to be to discuss many players as potential scumreads, each shallowly. I have some trouble developing a read on this in general, but it seems possible that this could be a way to generate content as scum. Their most developed scumread seems to be their read on Afrayed Knott in 761, which is very easy. I don't think easy pushes are always wrong, but this doesn't allay my worries that they're picking "easy" things to comment on.

BUT

I find myself a bit disappointed this seems to be the best case I can make against them at this point. Some of the things we're scumreading them for are clearly playstyle differences. For example, they've said they are not used to not having a night 0, and this partially explains the general aimlessless, the fact they're giving more associative reads than reads in isolation, etc. Even if Kurtapika is scum this game, in an alternate universe we'd be dealing with the town manifestation of these problems. I'm just not sure what the town and scum manifestations looks like at the moment.

You're welcome to comment on any of this btw Kurta

UNVOTE:
I will probably be willing to hop back onto this, but I feel inspired to look around a bit for the moment

[Aisa]

Dann, you've picked on a few players so far for being "performative", in the sense of narrating their thought process out loud to seem town. Do you think narrating your thought process is always scummy / worth a vote on Day 1?

(and aisa )

:')

[Aisa]

Also, sepertse but related, both k and proj talk a lot about the negatives ,, the reasons to sr people, rather than questions/sorting? Playstyle, but I struggle

If K could actually be a bit more negative that would be like a dream come true for me

[Aisa]

Projectry, I'm interested in your response to Titus's latest posting

[Aisa]

aisa is there a reason you unvoted

said you wanted to explore other options

and then didn't vote anyone else

I unvoted because I wanted to give myself a little time to think without contributing to end the day
As part of my thinking I did want to have a think about other possible votes, but I got a bit bored and logged off before I decided my next push

[Aisa]

I think one of the reasons I got bored is that I wanted to look into Black vs Afrayed but they're both V/LA so I can't talk to them so I got a bit demotivated. Then I tried to look into the whole discussion on Skygazer but it was just a bunch of people discussing whether Sky lurking was AI and for whatever reason that also failed to sustain my interest

Unrelated, I've decided Projectry's 878 was a very towny reaction

[Aisa]

T3 is not a bad vote based on his content so far. Obviously the glaring thing is there has not been much content so far

I promise I will be useful again tomorrow

[Aisa]

I feel like Kurtapika can live for now

[Aisa]

@Aisa, why aren't you voting anyone?

I unvoted because I wasn't sure about K being scum and wanted to give myself time to think
I'm still trying to overcome the slight slump in my ability to engage with the game I seem to have fallen into
I have some time to dedicate to the game now, so... let's see, I'll try to pick a vote

[Aisa]

I have some time to dedicate to the game now

Apparently I lied, something else came up

VOTE: T3

[Aisa]

To say a bit more about my logic behind the vote:

that being said, i'll pose a question. if bella was new to the site do you think this post of hers would be more or less scummy?

If Bella was new to the site then that post would definitely be more scummy.

Why?

Just statistically.

Thinking back on it this post felt a bit like it could be shutting down discussion. I remember not liking it at the time, for whatever reason I didn't call it out back then

Also, on reflection there aren't that many slots I would prefer voting to T3? There are other slots, such as shaddowez and OutworldER, who are kinda nullish at this point. The difference is that when I look at shaddowez and OutworldER's posts there's nothing outright

wrong

with them, I just don't feel confident calling them town.

T3's posting so far, on the other hand, actively feels like something that could come from scum

[Aisa]

T3's posting so far, on the other hand, actively feels like something that could come from scum

..didn't t3 literally just come back from v/la??? what posting are you talking about? there was one (more recent) post that t3 had made as of this post i don't think that catchup post in itself is scummy enough to get you to completely change your mind

T3 is not a bad vote based on his content so far. Obviously the glaring thing is there has not been much content so far

I promise I will be useful again tomorrow

yeah you say it yourself, there's no content
while i do think t3 is randscum(correct word?) like this is just not right

also i figured i shoudl elaborate on my hot take: kurta seems scummy to me, t3 and kurta seem partnered (titus talked about this), kurta and black are VERY clearly partnered

I'm talking about all of T3's posting, most of which is prior to his V/LA. Yes it is a weakness of this wagon that he doesn't have more recent posting.

I never had a full townread on T3 so there isn't much to change my mind from. I think I did call him towny at one point, but I changed my mind when I saw a post from someone else (you?) calling out the "just statistically" post. The doubts came back then and never left.

I dislike voting a slot that has been on V/LA as much as the next person. At the same time I don't think it's like, feasible to always ignore slots that haven't been active on day 1? I did briefly consider restricting my pool for today to slots that have been active, but my reaction was "lol I don't particularly want to lim most of these people" so I gave up on the idea

[Aisa]

To say a bit more about my logic behind the vote:

that being said, i'll pose a question. if bella was new to the site do you think this post of hers would be more or less scummy?

If Bella was new to the site then that post would definitely be more scummy.

Why?

Just statistically.

Thinking back on it this post felt a bit like it could be shutting down discussion. I remember not liking it at the time, for whatever reason I didn't call it out back then

To elaborate on why this post from Aisa doesn't make sense: the context of my post where I said "just statistically" was Jupiter asking me a question about whether Bella being new or not new to the site would make that post more scummy or not. It was a question about mafia theory and it had no relevance to the actual game at hand. There would be no scum motivation whatsoever to shut down discussion about the question because the truthfulness of my answer would have no bearing whatsoever on the game, and I think that should be pretty obvious. Aisa feels the need to justify a vote on me that is just her sheeping the consensus, and her justification for voting is completely made-up.

To be clear, this was my original reasoning:

The discussion in question started when you said you had an early scumread on Bella because she said "is it bad I already have a TR?". This is a game-relevant event.

Scum players usually have to lie about what they view as scummy. If you were scum and had made up your reasoning for scumreading Bella in the first place, then it could be slightly painful to have to continue elaborating on your reasoning. That would be a scum motivation to be brief with your answer.


I do think you have a point though that "if bella was new to the site do you think this post of hers would be more or less scummy?" is a hypothetical question that you could probably just answer truthfully regardless of your alignment

[Aisa]

I do think you have a point though that "if bella was new to the site do you think this post of hers would be more or less scummy?" is a hypothetical question that you could probably just answer truthfully regardless of your alignment

Ehh actually I guess that if you were scum it's possible that you wouldn't have a view on the question in the first place but would feel the need to fake one

tl;dr: it's not just theory when you're using related theory to justify a read on someone

[Aisa]

good work team

[Aisa]

thank for wagoning black for me while i blissfully ignored the game for a day

[Aisa]

i kinda independently townread them both fwiw

[Aisa]

{dannflor (based off a loose skim of blacks iso), T3}
{knott (also based off of that)}
{everyone else}
{skygazer}
{bellaphant}
{me}

anyway i gotta rake the leaves from my backyard before it inevitably snows kbye

pretty intrigued by this reads list
why is t3 at the top?

[Aisa]

i trust T3 actually

VOTE: Skygazer

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

why?

black flip

i didn't iso black but i think i remember bellaphant like not deciding their read on black

which would've been like normal but the e-1 looks so bad to me

Don't think so
p-edit yeah

[Aisa]

I was actually just looking at page 40 and I do have to say that T3's interactions with Black there are not a good look on him imo

[Aisa]

I suspect you for entirely different reasons.

pray tell

I have not read anything yet but I pre-typed some thoughts during the night. Will properly catch up later as currently I'm occupied today.

VOTE: Afrayed Knott

Afrayed Knott pushed by Black in a really soft way, and Black never really tried to get anybody on the wagon. Seems very much like distancing. Most confident in this partner equity.

It was there in the post. Adding on, You say you were the biggest proponent of Black's lim, but outside of simply arguing with her you really didn't make any attempt to get anybody on her wagon before she got speed-limmed at EOD. I don't think any of your interactions there can't be theater, and Black's posts towards you give off major partner vibes.

If Black plays scum like I do, it's not theater.

I'm inclined to agree with this
For example, the level of detail and elaboration in 1039 would require a lot of dedication to setting up the perfect partner interactions if they are S/S

In general the vibe Black gave off with her push on Afrayed makes me think it's a case of scum setting their sights on a townie

[Aisa]

The possible reasons for the lack of deaths last night are:

- The doctor protected the nightkill target
- The jailkeeper jailed the nightkill target
- The jailkeeper jailed the person carrying out the kill
- Scum no killed

It's unlikely that scum no killed. The other three possibilities are all about equally likely from a sheer everyone-acts-at-random pov.

This means there's about a 33% chance T3 is scum because Titus jailkept him. Maybe you think it's unlikely that T3 was the nightkill target (fair enough) - that's still a 50-50 split between "T3 is scum" and "the Doctor saved someone last night".

Now... 50% odds of flipping scum are great odds and I have not been T3's greatest supporter this game, but I think his posting last night is more likely to be a town reaction.

I am a little confused by him saying that he knew that Titus was JK. I assumed he didn't realise she was the JK and would feel better reading that she was. Somehow I still lean towards T3's reaction being genuine

[Aisa]

This means there's about a 33% chance T3 is scum because Titus jailkept him. Maybe you think it's unlikely that T3 was the nightkill target (fair enough) - that's still a 50-50 split between "T3 is scum" and "the Doctor saved someone last night".

What I've been trying to say for a while is that

if I'm scum, I don't have to be the person carrying out the kill

I understand

I think that's a valid thing to point out, I personally think it's more of a small argument in your favour than anything conclusive

[Aisa]

Ok I'm busy right now but I've very received the message that I try should be a bit more active
If you guys can hold off on hammering T3 for 8 hours I can get some thoughts out

[Aisa]

Here I am!!

- I think T3 flips town, realistically I don't think it matters that much what I do here, but if I were forced to take a stand I wouldn't vote him right now. I don't really want to lead a movement to find a different elimination because -ugh- what if he actually is scum? There are good mechanical reasons to eliminate him as well
- Does T3 want to leave any last reads?
- I will never not complain about people who think I'm too hedgey xx
- camelCasedSnivy who? that slot's been on my list for a while as "need more information"
- I have {Projectry, Jupiter, Bella, Titus, T3, Afrayed} as my current townreads, which leaves {Dann, Sky, Kurtapika, OWER, shaddow, Nono/cCS}
as the PoE
- The PoE doesn't mean these people are scummy, it can also mean that I haven't looked into that slot very much so far
- In my PoE, Sky, Kurtapika and cCS jump out as the places where scum is most likely to be, but I'm aware that's just a list of fairly easy targets this game. If those are wrong, then it feels like the likelihood of me having a wrong townread goes up quite a lot. And if I have a wrong townread it's probably going to be painful to tease out who it is

Um
I guess now I'll reread the last few pages and see if there is anything that jumps out to me from them

Also!! schadd has said that I can go on V/LA from the 14th to the 17th. The date snuck up on me a bit and I thought it was further away
I'm going to try and make it up to you guys by being more active before I leave
But if you're harboring any secret doubts or niggling suspicions on my slot it would be highly convenient if you could time the paranoia for either before I leave or after I come back!

[Aisa]

snivy is also town

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

I find it hard to believe that this post comes from scum!snivy

It seems like an unremarkable post? Why do you think that wouldn't come from scum!snivy?

[Aisa]

[...]

However, I will still say this: Regardless of T3's alignment, I think Project has to be scum here. Project being scum perfectly answers T3's question he's asked to me ("Why don't me and Black just vote Skygazer if we're partnered" because drawing attention to Skygazer also puts the spotlight back on the person originally driving the vote, Project), and I think Project is scummy on his own merits after reading back. He barely interacts with either Black or T3, only interacts with Titus's case on T3 to call it bad while never saying anything substantial about T3 throughout the entire game, and I think his interactions with Black (which, he stops after the first few pages) could very easily be theater. I think Project being scum here also answers one of the burning questions I had ("Why does Black get off the T3 wagon if he's a mislim?" and the answer is it would make both Black and Project look good if T3 flipped town and allow them to flip either Skygazer or Titus, likely Skygazer, without drawing too much suspicion back).

I ended up writing a wall anyways gdi.

I was going to disagree with this post pretty strongly, but actually looking at Project's iso i do think his early interactions with Black are concerning

Spoiler: Projectry interactions with Black

I like T3 here too. 15 feels like he's mocking bella considering his read in 26 which is kinda mean but not necessarily scum indicative. I like Project's read on T3 in 91 and I had similar thoughts when reading through, so I like Project so far as well

Black - I’m taking ‘like’ to equate to leaning town but is there more to what is making you lean town for T3?

I found the reasons in your post to be fairly weak to form a town read, even though part of it is based off of shared thoughts with me. Whilst I gave thoughts in 91 as to what I found to be town leaning about T3, I though those thoughts were very basic and could easily be inapplicable to a more experienced player. Presumably you don’t agree? (Or agree basic but still applicable ha)

The other part of your comments regarding him point out that him being mean is not necessarily scum indicative, but it wouldn’t make me lean Town either.

I’m just curious if there is more that I’m missing as to why you (or anyone else) think T3 is leaning town.

I would say it's more of a townlean than a full on townread, and yeah it's definitely weak. My reads generally are early on. There's not much more to my read other than thinking T3 doesn't have to be doing this if he's scum here. And thinking about his mocking of bella a little more I feel like that's more likely to come from town. I don't think scum would want to make enemies on page 1

Ok, fair point in relation to the mocking. I agree, dumb move to be making enemies that early if scum.

@Project is this your first mafia game ever?

Yes. Is it that obvious? haha.

@Project is this your first mafia game ever?

Yes. Is it that obvious? haha.

No. I think you're playing really good, especially considering how new you are

You're probably my top townread tbh. I don't really see newscum being this competent at radiating towniness

Oh thanks. I thought you meant I was doing really bad haha.

I think Black's 256 particularly feels like something she could say to a partner

Will pick back up tomorrow and review in more detail, particularly the Titus claim, but from a quick scan there’s a lot of speculation around me being Black’s scum partner.

Do people really think it’s more likely I’m Black’s partner rather than that I was likely pocketed (I think that’s the correct term)?

I realise now that Black was complementing me and overly defending me to pocket me. I’d presume it’s much easier / more common to pocket a newbie as well?

@project

what was your read on Black yesterday?

[Aisa]

snivy is also town

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

I find it hard to believe that this post comes from scum!snivy

It seems like an unremarkable post? Why do you think that wouldn't come from scum!snivy?

When he pushed players in the scumgame I played with him there was so much more of an agenda, here he just voted Bella to see what would happen (and was not LAMIST) about it.

What do you think is scummy about T3

he has a lot of posts for not trying to scumhunt at all

why did yall dissolve the alisae wagon

if alisae is scum i think all the slots that ignored them are also scum

ok but dont you agree prism is a juicier vote

then dont

lets settle this 1v1 tommorow

This is camel as scum and I see a pretty strong contrast already

...Checked out his ISO in this game and also compared it with another scumgame of his (here)
Actually quite like this read

[Aisa]

Will you explain your Skygazer read too T3?

[Aisa]

the facts:

- Titus jailkept T3
- no one died last night
- T3 responded negatively to a scum self-hammer
- T3 claims he spotted the Titus crumb during night one, which seems unlikely looking at what the crumb actually was
- T3 showed no indication that he spotted the crumb in his thought processes/words today
- the fact that T3 was baffled at how strong my scum read was is also indicative that he wasn't aware of the crumb at all
- lets suppose he did spot the crumb and just didn't acknowledge it whatsoever until Titus claimed, looking for crumbs in itself is still scummy behavior

T3 is obvscum y'all!!!!

I think it's most likely that T3 already knew about Titus's crumb regardless of his alignment. If you're scum and you're blindsided by a Jailkeeper claim, I think your first reaction is going to be "oh no! how do I do damage control??" and I think that 1. looking for crumbs, then 2. making a post about how you totally already knew the crumb was there is just... a pretty unintuitive way to go about it.

If T3 is scum I think it's more likely he just got his cover stories mixed up and forgot he was supposed to pretend he didn't know Titus was JK for a minute.

You happen to notice a crumb, you don't need to be actively looking for crumbs. And having some background awareness of who is likely to be a PR can be useful even if you're just a good ol' regular VT. (You yourself say you picked up on Titus hinting she was the JK and this influenced your approach to T3 today)

[Aisa]

You

can

happen to notice a crumb, you don't need to be actively looking for crumbs.

ebwop

[Aisa]

Dann why are you flipping your votes around?

I’ve questioned this myself. He is always vote switching, but I’ve been conflicted about it.

It feels overly excessive and feels like an attempt to throw votes around and see what traction he gets. On the other hand, if it’s not excessive (I don’t know his meta) then it’s just scumhunting. Plus I never raised my suspicions because I thought I was potentially just biased / influenced by the fact he was pushing me Day-1 and most people had him as a strong town read so I thought maybe I was wrong.

But I don’t like his back and forth on T3. He came off the vote, but now people are starting to look at him he jumps back on it and is all for the lim now.

However, my biggest issue with Dann is what OWER points out at 1593. If Dann is scum why does he start the Black wagon which leads to the hammer?

The amount of vote switching Dann has done is not considered all that out of the ordinary and I think it fits Dann's personality (I still think it's fine to question it if you think the votes are scummy or you don't understand why he's switching)

[Aisa]

FWIW I knew T3 was at E-1 but I didn't say anything as I wasn't sure if Knott was doing a reaction test

[Aisa]

I've been in a weird position as there were a couple reads I was considering elaborating on, at the same time wasn't sure if I wanted to hammer t3, and generally don't think talking about reads in twilight (or near-twilight situations) is a good idea

[Aisa]

Kinda just want Bella to hammer atp

[Aisa]

I dreamt that T3 was hammered
Is there a reason that hasn't happened yet

[Aisa]

VOTE: T3
I think it's time to do this.

We have all invested energy into engaging with the wagon, and I think it's clear many, though not all of us, think T3 is among the best possible choices for today. I've come around to Skygazer's 1626 and I think that the momentum we have on T3, along with the soft guilty, is not to be taken lightly. T3 is fundamentally a

good enough

elimination and we have the space to make a mistake or two.

I do still townread T3 overall, but it's not a happy and comfortable townread. I don't know if I'll townread him tomorrow and the day after and the day after when he'll inevitably still face suspicion.

I also am actually pretty curious to see what this flips. Since 1561 I think I've actually gained a couple tentative townreads and I actually feel slightly short of slots I find scummy. (I can explain who the slots are when Day 3 starts and you can auto-elim me if I don't do it)

[Aisa]

I suppose that was a lot of words to say "let's just lim T3 because we're already here and for the information"

[Aisa]

Happy life in the aether

[Aisa]

Omg yes

[Aisa]

I have a theory on third scum and I'm not going to wait for Titus

[Aisa]

VOTE: camelCasedSnivy

[Aisa]

Like obviously consider my vote automatically on whoever Titus jailed, but I'm just gonna place it on Snivy for fun

[Aisa]

I just think his interactions with T3 look like the most damning

i trust T3 actually

VOTE: Skygazer

i voted t3 because of the comparison to booneytoonz, that sold it for me i think

wait what

i voted skygazer* because of the comparison to booneytoonz, that sold it for me i think

{dannflor (based off a loose skim of blacks iso), T3}
{knott (also based off of that)}
{everyone else}
{skygazer}
{bellaphant}
{me}

anyway i gotta rake the leaves from my backyard before it inevitably snows kbye

yeah im not sold on t3. how is t3 scum exactly?

was gone for a while but now I'm back

not really sure what to do now, i don't really want T3 dead and my preferred wagon is dead

if anyone wants to sell me a non-T3 not-Dannflor wagon I'm fine with that

otherwise

UNVOTE: Bellaphant

VOTE: shaddowez

[Aisa]

Since 1561 I think I've actually gained a couple tentative townreads and I actually feel slightly short of slots I find scummy. (I can explain who the slots are when Day 3 starts and you can auto-elim me if I don't do it)

And just to tie up all my loose ends I was townleaning all of Dann, Sky, and OWER to some extent
I was having some second thoughts on my Bella townread but I changed my mind again during the night


Don't think my presence here will be needed for much longer, but just in case, reminder that I am

V/LA from the 14th to the 17th

. Unless I will have to cancel my plans because I'm sick, which is looking increasingly likely.

Anyway if you have any questions for me make sure to ask in the next ~16 hours, or I might not be able to get to them until I'm back

[Aisa]

Unless I will have to cancel my plans because I'm sick, which is looking increasingly likely.

Feel better!

Feel better Aisa!

Thanks! <3
UNVOTE:

[Aisa]

VOTE: Kurtapika

Get better JupiterXV, too!

[Aisa]

Because I was on snivy lol

[Aisa]

The only world in which Titus actually has a guilty on me is if I both somehow don’t know that she is Jailkeeper and my partner is exactly Kurta.

Imagine if this is true
The gumption of this man lol

[Aisa]

insert 1500 word essay about how skygazer can still be scum

i'm typing my 10 page dissertation on why Project is the deepwolf at this very moment

Ah yes. I too thought the last scum was Snivy

[Aisa]

With that in mind, I think Aisa's catchup sucks and her shifting Project read makes me reconsider my own Project read.

I was appalled when I read this, lol
Glad to hear it was only a phase

[Aisa]

The only world in which Titus actually has a guilty on me is if I both somehow don’t know that she is Jailkeeper and my partner is exactly Kurta.

Imagine if this is true
The gumption of this man lol

It's not like that wasn't my theory T3 was raging about.

You would have named the exact team day 1 - town queen.

[Aisa]

I am SO back. I had some time to reread on Night 2 so now I actually have takes on the game.
For the um... very short few hours between making my mind up and Titus revealing she had jailed K I felt pretty adamant it was Snivy and I had a massive case for it. Here it is:

Spoiler:

sorry that i havent posted guys ill actually read now

i trust T3 actually

VOTE: Skygazer

Mm yes, saying you haven't read the game then sheeping someone two hours later. How could this possibly backfire?

Spoiler:

i voted skygazer* because of the comparison to booneytoonz, that sold it for me i think

In this post Snivy is explaining why he is sheeping T3 on his Skygazer vote.

Not every meta read is accurate. Snivy wasn't born yesterday and should presumably understand this. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but personally I didn't think there was anything especially compelling about T3's comparing Sky's play in this game to BooneyToonz.

Spoiler:

{dannflor (based off a loose skim of blacks iso), T3}
{knott (also based off of that)}
{everyone else}
{skygazer}
{bellaphant}
{me}

anyway i gotta rake the leaves from my backyard before it inevitably snows kbye

I asked about this readslist and did not receive an explanation
I don't think it's any less intriguing post T3 flip

Spoiler:

yeah im not sold on t3. how is t3 scum exactly?

interaction speaks for itself

Spoiler:

Black's probably town, I'm a bit concerned about aisa, one of the three people I don't know with really long names feels scummier than the others.

Titus isn't someone I'd lim today.
P-edit it feels like something I would feel worried about as scum, that's all.

I'm not tr-ing black after the last few pages. Ans yes, the rest isn't to you

My issue that black said she didn't like being metad and then referred to meta when saying about being defensive, which she just....is being

these are the major posts i read talking about black. everything else about black is really filler. didn't really look like bella was trying to get anyone to vote black which is why the E-1 vote sells bella being scum here. town doesn't do that without at least voting their target early lol

Now, it's unclear at this post how caught up Snivy is on the game. I would be surprised if he has read all of it even now so there

could

be an innocent explanation in that maybe he's just trying his best with the content he has read.

But I just don't find this case compelling at all. I know I've personally read posts that made me think Bella was towny although I'd be hard-pressed to remember exactly what they said right now

Still, I find it kind of alarming that Snivy chose to push Bella here based on a very tiny small fraction of her posting while ignoring the rest of her posts. It's not even clear that Bella not making her mind up about Black is a scummy thing to do. I'm not saying it's a tactic scum have never tried before but one could equally argue here that Bella not making her mind up is a sign she does not have TMI on the slot.

Spoiler:

searching through mod VCs bellaphant had a 3-vote wagon for one VC so i think we need more heat

and not involve ourselves in silly tunnels

idk who kurta is i would assume a lurker since i cant remember off the top of my head

Why is a 3 vote wagon a sign that we need more heat on Bella?

The "silly tunnel" is presumably Titus's tunnel on T3. I think Titus was already hinting JK pretty heavily at this point and there's no acknowledgement of this in Snivy's posting. I think him seeming completely oblivious to Titus hinting JK is probably scum-indicative.

Spoiler:

was gone for a while but now I'm back

not really sure what to do now, i don't really want T3 dead and my preferred wagon is dead

if anyone wants to sell me a non-T3 not-Dannflor wagon I'm fine with that

otherwise

UNVOTE: Bellaphant

VOTE: shaddowez

This is after Titus has claimed JK and after T3's AtE. Yet his read on T3 has barely moved. There's zero acknowledgement of how these two major events in the game might have affected his read. Presumably he would be somewhat aware of these events even if he's otherwise skimming the thread.

There's also the fact that the vote on shaddowez is either unexplained and completely out of the blue, or is sheeping T3's post. If town!camel is sheeping T3, again I feel like that would imply he's paying at least _some_ attention to T3's posting? Raises more questions. Why is T3 his top town read? Even if T3

was

his top townread at this point in the game due to his AtE, that doesn't necessarily imply he has to sheep T3. Why does he trust T3 so much?

I'm not done but I'll continue in the next post

[Aisa]

The tl;dr so far is that, over the course of Days 1 and 2, Snivy's actions were noticeably influenced by his strong townread on T3. Yet there's little explanation of where his townread of T3 comes from.

When I look at the way his read on T3 developed over the course of days 1 and 2, I find the timings strange. Why does he trust T3 so much immediately after replacing in? Some of the reads in his readslist seem quite tentative (e.g. Dann is town "based on a loose skim of Black's iso"). Why is he paying disproportionate attention to T3? Why does his read not change after Titus reveals she JKed T3? Maybe the simplest explanation is that he's scum doing scum-things with his read on his partner.

if T3 is scum, then scum needs to scramble to save him (otherwise this game gets really hard for them), and dannflor has been taking the most overt actions to save him today

I think there are other possibilities for what happened yesterday, but I think this is a good theory (ignore the bit about Dannflor). I'm sure that no matter who T3's partner is, the implications of there only being one member of the scumteam remaining will have weighed heavily on the scumteam's mind.

and it just so happens that this explains Snivy's behaviour yesterday perfectly.

[Aisa]

I had a big post about T3's read on Snivy but you know what? I just found this gem and I think I will just leave this here

why is black your top town read?

I really liked her vote in 512 and especially that it wasn't LAMIST. I initially thought that a large number of Black's reads were weird and agenda-y but when I looked at Backup6 I didn't get that sense at all.

snivy is also town

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

I find it hard to believe that this post comes from scum!snivy

It seems like an unremarkable post? Why do you think that wouldn't come from scum!snivy?

When he pushed players in the scumgame I played with him there was so much more of an agenda, here he just voted Bella to see what would happen (and was not LAMIST) about it.
[...]

[Aisa]

VOTE: camelCasedSnivy

[Aisa]

who T3's partner is, the implications of there only being one member of the scumteam remaining will have weighed heavily on the scumteam's mind.

so you feel that Dann is not scum and its definitively Camel? if so how definite are you on your read?

I definitely scumread Snivy. Wouldn't bet my life on it but he seems much scummier to me than any other slot in the game. I'd put a 40-50% chance on him flipping scum

I'm not particularly worried about Dann. I think it's good people are questioning his alignment as he's had a lot of influence on the game so far and seems like a good scum player, but every time I sit down and consider his posting I feel like it's towny

[Aisa]

Ok, would you bet your life on Dan being town?

its not a trick question because I've seen him mess with town as scum and I am getting this feeling of deja Vu, and its growing.

No. He seems like a good scum player and I think that's the sort of slot that it is always useful to have in the back of your mind as a possible deepwolf, even if I don't particularly want to pursue it right now.

[Aisa]

I can try to review his posting tomorrow and see if I remember why I'm supposed to townread him according to Aisa from 4 days ago

[Aisa]

Leaning scum in Dann and Sky
Aisa scum

You seem to have a few scumreads / scumleans. And that's fine but I'm curious whether knowing that only one of these players can be scum affects your thinking at all

[Aisa]

And while I have your attention what about yesterday, why wouldn't you wait on the hammer?

Some combination of the following:
- I felt we could afford a miselimination. We have a long way to go until there are 3 players left and if we ever get to that point most of the players currently alive will be dead. Atp it's just not worth overthinking some eliminations
- No kill + Titus having jailed K the previous night felt like pretty compelling evidence
- Everyone else seemed pretty enthusiastic about the wagon
- The T3 wagon the previous day also influenced my approach

I think my state of mind when I hammered can be best summarised as "lol ok clearly not worth trying to save this slot, flip time!!!"

[Aisa]

If you have any questions I'm happy to answer them, but otherwise I'm probably not going to fight you because I feel like I'm unlikely to change your mind in the short term

[Aisa]

It's more that I've just explained how Day 3 unfolded from my perspective. If you don't believe it you don't believe it. There's nothing I can do to prove I had or didn't have a certain intent when e.g. I interacted with Titus.

I guess that if I had to decide what to do about Night Actions my thinking would be less along the lines of "how can I cunningly manipulate the game into consecutive kills? ¬‿¬ " and more along the lines of "what would give me better odds of winning the game - killing or no killing?"

You seem to think that setting up two eliminations in a row is a good deal, but two nights of no killing = extra elimination for town.

Scum also eventually needs to get rid of at least one of {Titus, the Doctor} to win the game (otherwise they would find themselves in F3 with two slots who are very likely conftown). So... do you think scum has thought about this? Why or why not?

Sorry if turns out that scum had not realised this ^ btw but also would require effort to not discuss this for possibly several game days

[Aisa]

As someone who often wants to shrivel up and die of embarrassment, "when I say something in main thread" totally sounds like wording I could use as town

[Aisa]

Ok
yolo, so here's some more comments on T3's treatment of Snivy. Here are some posts where T3 talks about him:

Spoiler:

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

camel's probably town, he has an 'anxiety' to use his vote which comes from town more often than not. Compared to Secrets of the Anukat Topaz this is like night and day.

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

why?

black flip

i didn't iso black but i think i remember bellaphant like not deciding their read on black

which would've been like normal but the e-1 looks so bad to me

I'd expect a more thought-out and expansive case from scum!camel.

snivy is probably town too. He doesn’t feel agenda-y and clearly wants to do something to change the gamestate and use his vote, it’s nothing like what I saw from scum!him in Secrets of the Anukat Topaz.

snivy is also town

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

I find it hard to believe that this post comes from scum!snivy

It seems like an unremarkable post? Why do you think that wouldn't come from scum!snivy?

When he pushed players in the scumgame I played with him there was so much more of an agenda, here he just voted Bella to see what would happen (and was not LAMIST) about it.

What do you think is scummy about T3

he has a lot of posts for not trying to scumhunt at all

why did yall dissolve the alisae wagon

if alisae is scum i think all the slots that ignored them are also scum

ok but dont you agree prism is a juicier vote

then dont

lets settle this 1v1 tommorow

This is camel as scum and I see a pretty strong contrast already

I think T3's reasons for townreading Snivy are quite vague. And sometimes plain inaccurate. For example:
- Using Snivy's post 1226 and vote on Bella as an example of being "anxious" to use his vote is a slight stretch.
- T3 seems to have experience of scum!Snivy from Secrets of the Anuket Topaz. He says he would expect a more thought out and expansive scumcase from scum!camel, but if you look at Snivy in that game, I wouldn't say he has any "expansive" cases. Sure he seems a little more pushy and a bit more active, but that's a different thing.
- Apparently Snivy "clearly wants to do something to change the gamestate and change his vote". Now look at Snivy's ISO in this game. I love Snivy as a player and think he's great when he's around, but this is not the ISO of someone who "clearly wants to change the gamestate".

Also... I hope it's not just me who thinks some of those posts are a bit contradictory? For example, "clearly wants to do something to change the gamestate and use his vote" vs "he just voted Bella to see what would happen".

I think this might mean that T3 was struggling to find reasons to townread Snivy.
- ...which suggests that Snivy might not be town.
- Also, why did T3 decide to state a townread on a relatively inactive slot?

[Aisa]

(Not Skygazer, but) that's possible but I sort of see it as equally likely that the wording is innocent

[Aisa]

Cute art you're posting schadd

[Aisa]

We should make sure to get a claim from Snivy before hammering

[Aisa]

Cute art you're posting schadd

^ Live footage of me trying to pocket the mod

[Aisa]

found this sick gif of jupiter off wikipedia

^ Live footage of Jupiter vibing

[Aisa]

Camel, I am not sure you can. Regardless of alignment, you're taking it like a champ.

+1

[Aisa]

I think that might have been the most spectacularly wrong read I've ever had

[Aisa]

-_-

[Aisa]

On that, I think something that would be very powerful is having a (correct) towncore
I'm not sure how to get there exactly

[Aisa]

But like... technically all we need to win the game is a handful of townies with (correct) townreads on each other

[Aisa]

I'm not sure this is controversial anymore but I trust Skyg quite strongly (they don't trust me back i know i know)
Tempted to re-eval everyone else

[Aisa]

I think that might have been the most spectacularly wrong read I've ever had

idk why you felt the need to wall case snivy 2-3 times

idk what to say, i thought he was flipping scum and wanted to explain why

[Aisa]

Like, I think it's really convenient for Aisa that she's entirely absent when Black is getting run up. And Aisa also seemed to be less active during D2 and her play around T3 just kinda comes off as wanting to defend T3 and trying to get him out of his situation while also not wanting to be implicated herself.

You may like to consider that when I last posted on Day 1 I was voting T3, who was the largest wagon (viewtopic.php?p=14005598#p14005598)
FWIW the reason I was absent is because I couldn't make my mind up about what wagon to be on. I decided to deal with it by ignoring the game for a bit

On that, I think something that would be very powerful is having a (correct) towncore
I'm not sure how to get there exactly

But like... technically all we need to win the game is a handful of townies with (correct) townreads on each other

I'm not sure this is controversial anymore but I trust Skyg quite strongly (they don't trust me back i know i know)
Tempted to re-eval everyone else

i am surprised you don't have a larger town core already

Maybe I'll throw in Afrayed as a town read
I think I'll get back to have a town core, it's just a matter of remembering my reasons for townreading certain people again and deciding which of those reasons are strongest
Like, idk. My worldview yesterday kinda got flattened into "snivy is soo scummy and everyone else is towny"

[Aisa]

On that, I think something that would be very powerful is having a (correct) towncore
I'm not sure how to get there exactly

We already have one, I'm fairly sure? Titus, Dann, Skygazer, Myself, Jupiter

For example, out of these 5 slots I think:
Titus - confirmed town
Dann - need to reevaluate
Skygazer - town
OWER - very towny vibes, but need to check
Jupiter - I remember townreading that wall early on. Spontaneous posting style which I've found quite convincingly towny but I need to check to be sure

[Aisa]

Hope you're doing ok Jupiter too!!

Dann - need to reevaluate

boo

I knew you weren't gonna like that

[Aisa]

smh "If I were scum..." arguments

[Aisa]

Like, I think it's really convenient for Aisa that she's entirely absent when Black is getting run up. And Aisa also seemed to be less active during D2 and her play around T3 just kinda comes off as wanting to defend T3 and trying to get him out of his situation while also not wanting to be implicated herself.

You may like to consider that when I last posted on Day 1 I was voting T3, who was the largest wagon (viewtopic.php?p=14005598#p14005598)

Okay?? Black votes literally right after you, and we know Black was Maf. There's no reason that can't be a bus, especially when it was very obvious that the momentum was shifting to T3 as people were souring on the Kurta wagon.

Sure, I'm aware that could be interpreted as a bus and I'm fine with you thinking that. Just thought it was worth a shot to point out that I probably wasn't avoiding the thread to avoid voting scum - I was already voting scum after all.

[Aisa]

When you're like "wow! three whole new posts" but two of them are semicolons

I am working on game-advancing content as we speak, I promise

[Aisa]

I just compared OWER's play to mini normal 2316, where he was scum. I think the difference between this game and that game is enough to seal in the townread. In the scumgame he's more aggressive and kind of goes out of his way to discredit some slots. In this game he's felt a bit more "passive". Here he seems more interested in comparing and contrasting different wagons.

I guess that gives me {ower, skygazer, afrayed} as slots that I feel fairly good about so far
been getting a bit of skygazer paranoia but eh don't think it's time to question that too much yet

[Aisa]

Uuugh mixed read on projectry

For example, in post 880 I townread how confidently he asks Titus to provide "an actual explanation outside of gut feelings to support [her] theory". I think trying to read Titus based on her being a lawyer is a pretty reachy argument though

[Aisa]

Also there has been a few times when Dann is questioned about things and he ignores them. My question at 863 and Afrayed’s at 1592 etc.

Maybe it isn’t AI that he ignores these, but I do find it odd. Everyone else seems to respond to direct questions.

Apologies if you have in fact answered these and I’ve missed the response.

Project over Jupiter, surely? Honestly I'd kind of be down to lim aisa just to get it out of the way, but I'm also tipsy.

Feeling lost but in regards to recent posts I town read this from Bella. If she was the last remaining scum she wouldn’t care whether it was me or Jupiter. There isn’t much need for scum to make such comment / question this.

I’m only really certain on Titus for obvious reasons. Dann I feel has to be town due to setting up the Black wagon, but there is just something about him I don’t trust. Otherwise, everyone else I’m largely unsure of. I’ve had suspicions of people, but they are never shared by other people so I lose confidence in them.

also like my old account on this site was yeezys so if you want you can read my only game on there where i was like 12 and

also had the most atrocious townplay known to mankind

Think I can give you a run for your money on that!

I think these are towny posts

[Aisa]

I also think it's kinda cool (read: towny) that a lot of Projectry's pushes seem to come from a common strand, eg:

But why is this allowed? Just because you are like this all the time, why should you be allowed to shitpost early and contribute later.

If you are listening to the facts and making a ruling, you should be able to point to specific things that lead you to conclude they are scum.

At 1341 Afrayed said if he was the JK then he would have targeted T3 or Shaddow, however he wasn’t voting either of these. Titus pulled him on this 1348 and he tried to defend it on the basis that logically he should have voted one of them, but his gut feeling said otherwise. I don’t particularly like this response. I think logic should take precedence.
[...]
Afrayed further votes and unvotes T3 again. At 1612 he states he’s not happy with the T3 vote and states whilst he accepts it’s the best vote mechanically, he thinks we should vote someone else instead. To me that’s odd. Surely the best vote mechanically is still the best vote.

He seems to scumread people a lot when they do something that departs from his idea of what responsible townplay ideally "should" look like. Idk, maybe this is actually scummy but I'm tempted to say the consistency in his methods is because he's a townie actually trying to solve the game

Gun to head I feel like he's not our guy. I also don't have a good sense of why people are scumreading him at the moment. Is it just PoE?

[Aisa]

Hmm

[Aisa]

Ok, what are your thoughts on Shaddow please?

He's felt pretty similar to Large 244, where he was town. That's been enough until now. I should probably look into him more

You also state in 2001 that you are reevaluating Dann, where are you with that?

The re-evaluation has not happened yet

[Aisa]

Rereading and Ctrl+F through Black's ISO really just makes me want to lim Project more but there's a case for Bella and Aisa too, I think.

If you have other reasons to scum read me that’s fine, but I don’t see how you can think Black’s interactions with me were anything other than Black pocketing me.

This is my first ever game and I was ripe for the picking. She was overly complimentary of me and was clearly drawing me in.

If I was her scum partner, wouldn’t she avoid so overtly defending or supporting me? Surely that would be too risky of an association.

What makes you think it would be too risky for Black to defend you if you were her partner? It worries me a little that you say

surely

it would be too risky as if it were a foregone conclusion.

(though sorry if we're giving you a rough time on your first game. I haven't had a lot of energy for the game recently, but at least in principle I'm always up for swapping notes on reads etc when I'm around )

[Aisa]

You're argument here also disproves itself; It's not "too risky of an association" because you and others have been making the argument that it's pocketing and not mafia being partnered. In addition, and I think the critical point here, is that if Black is pocketing you then the strategy she had with you is incredibly unclear. As far as I can tell from her ISO, she never tries to get you to vote with her, and you never built up the credibility nor the motivation/activity to be a voice in her defense.

I concede there's a chance she was pocketing you. I just think it's much more likely you two were partnered instead.

I don’t think the argument does disprove itself, because other people thought I was scum because of this association (just most now see it as me being pocketed).

Plus you are still trying to lim me largely based upon Black’s interactions with me. You presumably want this to gain traction, so if I was limmed largely based upon this reasoning, then if I was scum, then it would have been too risky of an association for Black.

oh you've already talked about this! my bad

this game be confusing!!!

[Aisa]

I also think, as my read now is a bit ??? On Jupiter, that it wouldn't be the end of the world to lim the slot. There are more readable people out there. Like, Jupiter, knot and maybe shadow feel like ok lims.


What we don't have as the days were quick are many other wagons 'for info'

I don't think he's particularly at risk today, but I would be pretty against a Knott lim at this point
What makes you hesitant on him?

[Aisa]

Gun to head I feel like [Projectry is] not our guy.

Oh whoops. Naive little me, I'm such a klutz haha, pay no mind to me quickly changing my mind here, of course this was bound to happen, etc etc

VOTE: Project

[Aisa]

The Outworlder - Projectry dynamic does confuse me. The strength of OWER's read on Project is surprising to me and I'm finding it difficult to decide if it's because he's right, he's wrong, or he's scum

[Aisa]

^ is a bad post.

But anyway, with knot, like he's maybe town but I find the kind really hard to read: he reminds me of furtive glance a lot, where I can't work out if we are just on different planets or he's scum. Its more that we need 'semi clears'/readable people in end game. We also can't keep limming the more lhf guys because the wifom has clearly worked on Titus.

Like I suspect Titus jailed you last night and I'm kinda ok with your lim but then??

The person you suspect Titus jailed is me, right?

Thanks for the perspective on Knot. Again, FWIW he's one of the slots I'm townreading most at the moment but I have similar worries about who the last few slots left standing will be and if they will be able to find correct reads on each other

[Aisa]

Dann is town
In case anyone was curious about my methods, I determined this by skimming 20 of his posts and going with my gut feeling
Huge breakthrough that definitely won't give me any paranoia in two days' time i know i know thank you

[Aisa]

The Outworlder - Projectry dynamic does confuse me. The strength of OWER's read on Project is surprising to me and I'm finding it difficult to decide if it's because he's right, he's wrong, or he's scum

I literally wall-cased Project during D2 and have pushed him consistently since then? I'm not sure why it's surprising unless you just haven't been paying attention.

That's kind of what I was surprised by - the fact you've been holding this scumread for like a solid 20 days. I'm chronically indecisive and could not tell you the last time I held onto a scumread for that long

I was going to say that despite your apparent convictions that it is Project it doesn't feel like you've pushed him very hard to me, but maybe that's unfair given how fast days 3 and 4 went by

[Aisa]

Hope all of you who celebrate had a good christmas.

[Aisa]

I am completely and utterly lost
none of you seem particularly scummy

[Aisa]

I suppose that with the benefit of someone else telling me to look into shaddowez, and feeling like I have permission to be critical of his posting I see things I didn't before, lol

VOTE: Aisa

Throughout the game, Project's reads seem to develop naturally based on his questioning and interactions with the rest of the players. On the other hand, Aisa has some very weak reads she tries to defend (especially regarding T3), and her interactions with Black are off.

I've acquired tentative

townreads

on both Dann and Black. I know they are considered capable scum players and maybe I am playing with fire but still

I think I initially underestimated how similar Black's posting is between Open 888 and here and assumed Afrayed was being stubborn. I;ve just tkaen another look and at least superficially there are similarities
I'm

not saying this makes Black scum

but I feel more understanding of Afrayed's push on her now

thank for wagoning black for me

while i blissfully ignored the game for a day

This is a pretty vague post. What exactly is bad about my interactions with Black in those posts?

Realized I left Sky off my previous list, since not much has changed from my last position on him. Primarily his earlier interactions with T3, and then later interactions with Dann all seem to be coming from an informed perspective.

As for my bottom two reads (Aisa and Project), I'm slowly making my way through their ISOs and other interactions. One thing that is seriously pinging me is 101.

I don't think Black would defend both of her scum buddies in the same post

, making Aisa a slightly more likely suspect at this point.

Black actually states a townread on Project in the very same post

[Aisa]

Titus you were hoodwinked D3. The fact it was a quick lim sucks. You had a lot of time to let everyone post yesterday and you simply threw that away thinking you were right and didn’t consider all angles. Did you not consider that Scum could be deliberately not night limming so that we would lim your night target? And win the game through mislims?

I restate my suspicion of Asia and feel that scum sits with them or with an experienced player. Possibly Dann or Sky should be considered for such a play tactic. But I’m going to wait to see who your target was last night.

But I intend to vote Aisa today unless there is a compelling reason not to.

I agree we need to all slow down today, but why are you specifically blaming Titus for the speed of the wagon? Any one of us that voted could have held off to try and give more time. I know you're already considering voting Aisa, but that's where I'd say more of the blame should be than Titus since she hammered.
[...]

As if:
1. There wasn't at least one other slot (Projectry) who expressed interest in hammering Kurtapika
2. Titus didn't say "let's just hammer" moments before I hammered
3. There weren't 6 other people who built the wagon and could have unvoted to prevent a hammer (he acknowledges this, but for some reason I still have "more of the blame")
4. It was a bad decision to eliminate Kurtapika

[Aisa]

From a personal standpoint i didn’t like the line about me being wrong in two consecutive games

It 1. Assumes that I am town

2. Tone seems less indignant than i might expect from town getting wrongly scum read

I thought it was a sweet post which I guess made me more likely to see it in a positive light
There's no reason it cannot come from scum on second thought

Spoiler: The post in question btw

I'm not saying don't vote her Jupiter but of your two scum reads I view shaddowez less favorably personally

You can be wrong in two consecutive games, it's fine

[Aisa]

VOTE: shaddowez

[Aisa]

Soo... hhm
the votes are kinda scattered huh

[Aisa]

What are we gonna do about that

[Aisa]

SHADOWEZ

why are you ignoring the t3 wagon huh

Because he's my scumbuddy and I'm not bussing, obvs

As a real answer, I don't see this as a worthwhile wagon. My primary SR right now is the first vote and it doesn't feel like a bus, so it'd be a pretty big swing for me to switch those reads right now. The second vote is an RVS vote from somebody with 2 posts. I do have a slight TR on both you and Aisa right now, but that's not enough for me to hop on just yet.

@shaddowez

who was your primary SR at this point?

[Aisa]

[...]
That said, getting a ping here:
VOTE: Jupiter

It feel like they saw

some

reason to vote T3 and have been hanging on to it. 70 sounds like they're starting to form a reason to back out of their vote, without having to look anywhere else just yet.

Think I answered my own question

[Aisa]

VOTE: shaddowez

I like this wagon a bit more than anything else I've considered so far

[Aisa]

someone reread shaddowez and tell me there is a good reason to town read the slot

I can find reasons for aisa, project, outworlder, etc.

I’m not finding one for shaddowez

I think I just... agree with this

sorry for posting 10 times in a row by the way. but it is also kinda dead in here so eh

[Aisa]

Shaddow has decent amount of buddy equity if you ask me
(If scum) he was careful not to be seen defending T3 or Black too strongly at key moments. But there are a few examples of him... ummm... trying not to push T3 too much in his free time

Spoiler: examples

Aisa

Why is T3's 15 bad vs no comment on Bella's 13?

I don't want to answer for Aisa but I think that because my statement in 15 was intended to play on Bella's statement in 13, my 15 could appear to be more abrasive, in a sense.

Yes, this basically. T3's post pinged me because 1. he was playing on Bella's post, which I thought could be a way to try to insert himself into the conversation as scum, 2. he came off as kinda serious and antagonistic while doing so, which again I thought could be scum-indicative

I saw this differently - while yes, I could see it being antagonistic looking, scum could have played off it more subtly, or just ignored it at all. Being willing to poke at something and see reactions comes out as townier to me.

Jupiter's 64 feels very townie, good vibes there.

What about this post feels townie to you? None of the discussion points seem to provide any useful information, and the explanations of self-consciousness almost feel like they're WKing Bella here (as does their random interjection defending Bella into the OutWorldER/Aisa posts).

I'm getting a TR on OutWorldER based on 93 and the interactions leading up to it.

That said, getting a ping here:
VOTE: Jupiter

It feel like they saw

some

reason to vote T3 and have been hanging on to it. 70 sounds like they're starting to form a reason to back out of their vote, without having to look anywhere else just yet.

SHADOWEZ

why are you ignoring the t3 wagon huh

Because he's my scumbuddy and I'm not bussing, obvs

As a real answer, I don't see this as a worthwhile wagon. My primary SR right now is the first vote and it doesn't feel like a bus, so it'd be a pretty big swing for me to switch those reads right now. The second vote is an RVS vote from somebody with 2 posts. I do have a slight TR on both you and Aisa right now, but that's not enough for me to hop on just yet.

Why do you think scum would say that out loud like that? Or do you just think he was trying to be open/honest and slipped?

The latter. Lying is a very mentally strenuous task, so telling a half-truth is easier than making up a reason as to why he's ignoring the T3 wagon. I think this is further supported by the fact that shaddowez has so far declined to actually give a read of T3. Every reason he gave for it "not being a worthwhile wagon" has to do with the people who are on the wagon. It reads like scum trying to avoid faking a read.

i find i agree with this actually
while we're on the topic of voting/wagons:
shadow, why did you initially vote me? can you explain that? just curious.

I knew I saw this post and have been trying to find it.

While you're claiming your initial post was RVS, in that same post you voted T3 you also asked him about his SR, which to me felt as if you were looking to make a case from the get go. Your responses to T3 in 70 were very nonchalant, and felt as if you didn't really care about his answers.

^ Day 1. He spends a lot of time talking to various people about their scumread on T3 and softly disagreeing with it

Mostly caught up (read all of the posts, but only skimmed most of the walls). Wasn't going to touch Titus today anyway (didn't pick up on the D1 crumb, but her and Dann were my only two solid TRs from D1).

I'm torn on T3. I've never liked his wagon formations, and in this setup we have a soft guilty at best.

I'm not a fan of Kurta, but the Black interactions make it too obv. WIFOM to be sure, but there's something about it I don't like. In my PoE, but not high. Waiting to see more in D2.

The AK interactions on D1 could definitely be scum theater. 591 could easily be distancing. Yes he was pushing Black all of D1, but there didn't seem to be any traction until it speedwagoned towards the end. Black's self-hammer defeats wagon analysis both from a bussing hammer, or from anyone that was bussing hopping off before the hammer.

More to come...

^ Day 2, soon after Titus claims she JK'd T3

do you have any comments on titus or t3

Unless there's a counter claim, I'm not going to touch Titus. With a doctor still in play, the JK is a soft guilty at best. I'm not opposed to a T3 flip, because it would definitely be informational, but I don't read him as scummy enough to put my vote there yet.

I don't agree with T3 that snivy's "using his vote". Yes, his vote is somewhere, but someone with one vote on them and not much if any conversation around them isn't going to make scum magically appear. I'm still of the opinion that Black was more likely to have been trying to clear her partners with the Kurta associations than partnering Kurta himself, and neither nono or snivy have done anything to make me TR them.

^ Still Day 2

[Aisa]

Finally back - hope everyone that celebrates had a nice Christmas.

I know I have a lot of catching up to do - only having seen the current page so far, if there's a wagon on me and you're on it, it's bad and you should feel bad.

Working backwards for now - in response to 2243, I'm not sure what you're aiming at here. I

never

defended Black, had a SR toward the end of D1 and voted her D2 pretty much as soon as I came back from my V/LA.

As for T3, I was pretty vocal about not liking the wagon or SRing him. You're post makes it sound like I was soft defending (I wasn't, there wasn't really a defense outside of I don't SR him) and not pushing him, which again - why would I push someone I didn't SR when I was voting someone I did?

In 2243 I was trying to say that your interactions with T3 and Black - the timing of your defending and pushing them, the other slots you aligned yourself with, the positions you chose to take throughout the game - feel like they could come from scum to me.

The point was never that you defended Black (you didn't). Nor, obviously, that you shouldn't have voted for your scumreads if you are town. The point is that on days 1 and 2 you were often on team "Why is T3 scummy? Not a fan of the T3 wagon." And (to echo Project) if that was a genuine read it's fine, but my whole point kind of is that you didn't push T3.

[Aisa]

dann is pushing you because no one else is scummy enough to be pushed...

It's not Dann pushing me that's a problem. If he had specific arguments and said "I think shaddow is scummy because of [

x,y, and z

]" that's one thing, and while wrong doesn't seem like he's trying to make other people look at me negatively as a whole from the offset. This comes across as him saying "Hey shaddowez is scummy, you should go look at him and find reasons for him to be scummy"

he's not saying that though
he's saying that everyone else in the poe has reasons to be townread while you don't, and is asking others on their opinion
right? or am i reading thsi wrong

That is how I am interpreting Dann too.

I personally rarely find such smoking guns that I'm like "this is definitely scum!!!". Most scum players on here are good enough that they're usually at least going to have a vaguely credible excuse for whatever they're doing, so I do sometimes hunt by "ok who here isn't definitely town".

I agree that "go look at this player" is a dangerous game to play though

[Aisa]

I mostly haven't pushed him very hard because tbh I'm kind of on auto-pilot here. Like I said before I just kind of have a group of people I'm pretty sure the last scum is in (You, Project, It's been 3 days I honestly forget all the names) that I don't want to elim until the other group is all gone (Dann, Titus, Jupiter, Skygazer, and I think I had like 1 or 2 others).

Can you try to remember who your PoE is and give 1-sentence reasons for not wanting to vote the others?

[Aisa]

Feels like the game has stalled a bit. I am at a point where I would like to just eliminate someone and am willing to compromise on the exact slot. We'll have plenty of time to discuss most of the slots we're discussing today all over again

I could do shaddowez or OWER
or maybe someone else?

[Aisa]

I'm the doctor enjoy your game

So AK is confirmed town here since scum never fake-claim in this position. If this is a fake-claim then real doc shouldn't counter-claim for what I hope should be obvious reasons.

still a bad play though.

This wasn't completely obvious to me when I first read it, so I'll make it explicit just in case:

AK will probably die very soon. If he doesn't for a couple nights, the real doctor can reassess whether to claim then.

This strategy is advantageous if you think AK could be a VT fake-claiming doctor.

If AK is scum tbh counter claiming is an auto-win, but there is time to counter claim on future days

[Aisa]

I don't know if this is one of the games with active dead threads, but supposing it is imagine the scenes in dead thread right now lmfao

[Aisa]

Discussing AK's claim is cool and all, but when are we yeeting someone
Blood for the blood god

[Aisa]

VOTE: OWER
sure, let's see if this vote goes anywhere

[Aisa]

VOTE: shaddowez
maybe this will have more traction

[Aisa]

Uuugh mixed read on projectry

For example, in post 880 I townread how confidently he asks Titus to provide "an actual explanation outside of gut feelings to support [her] theory". I think trying to read Titus based on her being a lawyer is a pretty reachy argument though

why would you townread that? i think reading people based on their occupation is strange and probably more towny than the confidence

I townread 880 not so much because of the confidence of the read itself (I agree that can come from either alignment), but because Project seems to be very clear about what he wants to see from Titus.

I think that sometimes when you're scum and you want to push someone, you make up as much justification as you need for your push and no more. For example, you say that you're voting someone because "their interactions with X suck" and only later if someone asks you for more details do you make up more depth to your reasoning e.g. "you can clearly see from post XYZ that they were trying to defend their scumbuddy". I feel like sometimes, with some scum players, this can lead to the feeling they are constantly shifting the goalposts when you're talking to them. Like no matter what you say they find some subtle reason to dislike it.

Proj's post kind of gave me the opposite feeling? I've played with Titus before and I know she makes short posts, but if I weren't used to her posting style I would find her hard to read, and I think it's a reasonable concern if you haven't played with her before to want a slightly longer explanation than she's given for certain reads. He seemed consistent about wanting a logical explanation rather than a gut read.

Idk. Am I giving him too much credit for this?

[Aisa]

Anyway I agree we need to consolidate
Can the people who are not voting consider putting their vote somewhere, and the people who are voting consider moving to a bigger wagon? Or maybe someone could write a case if they have a strong opinion

[Aisa]

FWIW I still think shaddowez is a decent vote. I don't see a lot of reasons to townread him outright.

I was impressed by how calm he seemed in his most recent round of posting. I'm kind of surprised by how reasonable he has come across and that made me question the vote a bit

Still disagree with a good chuck of what he's said throughout the game though. And at this point in time this is the best I can do, I don't see much stronger reasons to scumread anyone else

[Aisa]

FWIW I still think shaddowez is a decent vote. I don't see a lot of reasons to townread him outright.

I was impressed by how calm he seemed in his most recent round of posting. I'm kind of surprised by how reasonable he has come across and that made me question the vote a bit

Still disagree with a good

chunk

of what he's said throughout the game though. And at this point in time this is the best I can do, I don't see much stronger reasons to scumread anyone else

ebwop

[Aisa]

I'm a VT

I'll drop a few last minute reads

[Aisa]

I'll drop a few last minute reads

Urg trying to do this without overthinking every read I've ever had

[Aisa]

Something came up, back now.

I've felt good about townreading Bella for a while. It's hard to explain why beyond vibes, but I'll try.
It feels clearest when she has a recent post. Her contributions are often small, but recently they've always felt natural and like what I would expect to come from town who is solving. For example, today she said:

Like, Jupiter, knot and maybe shadow feel like ok lims.

And then her reads changed to:

Play wise it's shadow or outer, buddy equity it's sky or Aisa. We shouldn't lim out of those four I think

I like this because it mirrors how I've felt today - I've been a bit indecisive and changed my mind a few times.

Bella's also been a bit more passive in this game than the scumgames of hers I've seen. Compared to previous games, her posting here has more stream-of-consciousness-y posts. It feels less like she's pushing anything or making an effort to be townread.

Also here are a few posts by T3 and Black that feel unpaired to me

Spoiler:

They give me super mixed vibes? Their beginning posts were quite bad, I agreed with some of the middle, specifically about aisa, and then the lurker vote was horrible.

VOTE: kurtapika

Also, I was going to make a joke about our lovely cohesive VC but dann beat me

I don't like this. Why not vote for me here over someone you have mixed feelings over?

They give me super mixed vibes? Their beginning posts were quite bad, I agreed with some of the middle, specifically about aisa, and then the lurker vote was horrible.

VOTE: kurtapika

Also, I was going to make a joke about our lovely cohesive VC but dann beat me

I don't like this. Why not vote for me here over someone you have mixed feelings over?

The answer is literally in what you quoted? Y

Sorry if I'm missing it but I'm not seeing where you explained why you would want to vote Kurtpika over me. You said you don't townread me and you think I'm sus. It feels unnatural of you to not put pressure on me here and instead join the bigger wagon

Is it bad to already have a sr?

bella?

Yeah. I mean, I guess I could explain why but it’s pretty obvious.

may i inquire why you scumread bella?

"Is it bad to already have a tr" indicates to me that Bella has a degree of self-consciousness and feels the need to ask permission from the thread to express her thoughts.

Let me put it this way: In a vacuum, statements like “Is it bad to have a tr this early” are >rand scummy. Obviously there are factors that may affect said vacuum, but as a general rule, your statement is more likely to come from scum. Also, I’d be willing to bet that the townread you, if town, have, isn’t particularly deep and is just a general meta/viberead. I

could

but I guess I didn’t really feel the need to. Does that make sense?

[Aisa]

I know everyone in this game already has their pet reason to townread Skygazer but here's mine:

Spoiler:

I'd bet my bottom dollar on T3 or Kurtapika being scum.

Sure, it's possible that scum got unlucky with an attack but there's several people who just aren't scum. The doctor can't heal Dann, AF, and Bella, not to mention myself but maybe I'm not that obvtown.

Scum wouldn't send their lurky member, K, to handle the kill as he'd be more likely to be jailed.

It's peeking through wifom a bit but I'd bet it's T3 and K here.

well i feel night and day stronger on kurtapika

I hear you but you aren't getting it. I'll find a way to persuade you.

well after review, i'm fully convinced that T3 is scum now, so i don't think my vote won't change today

That or K based on a no kill but T3 preferred unless a jk says otherwise. (Won't happen).

VOTE: Skygazer

are you scumreading me now? your reasoning yesterday was just survivalism, so is that still the case? or did something change?

Your case yesterday was incredibly bad faith and same today

what is bad faith about it

Let me put it this way: I was 'salty' but you haven't differentiated my tone between "annoyed town" and "annoyed town." I was pretty annoyed that my strongest townread had just claimed scum and I dislike how you're construing my annoyance to mean that I'm scum, when there is an alternative, equally likely explanation.

i mean the severity of the reaction plays into it for me too. i feel like when i'm wrong i just go "oh whoops" and move on quickly because a W is a W. i think your reaction seems more appropriate as a "my team is in a really bad spot" reaction over a "i misread someone." i understand that town can get annoyed, but your annoyance here does not look town.

i also think that you think that i'm just the easiest counterwagon to push through, which is why you tossed out a blanket statement like "bad faith" rather than any actual points. you were open about the fact that you weren't scumreading me yesterday, and today the only thing tangible you've had against me was that you don't like my arguments against you because you think i should be reading your annoyance differently. so you're giving not-solving/defeated-scum vibes to me.

okay. i'm 1v1ing T3. pretend i have a cop guilty on him or something. if he flips town then we can kill me tomorrow. but he won't flip town, i'm like 99% confident at this point (and i'm usually right when i'm this confident)

When Titus started hinting that she was the JK with a soft guilty on T3 near the start of day 2, Skygazer immediately doubled down on their T3 scumread and started pushing T3 really strongly.

If they were scum they could have pretended to not notice Titus's crumbing. Even if they were scum who did not want to ignore the crumbing, they didn't have to go as far as to make posts such as 1266 to back up Titus's push. They also didn't know at this point if Titus would out herself as JK.

tbh I don't think this is a 100% towntell. Definitely cool scumplay if it came from scum though

[Aisa]

Overall my reads are roughly like this at the moment:

{Titus}
{Bella, AK}
{Skygazer}
{Dann}
{OWER, Jupiter, Projectry}
{shaddow}

[Aisa]

I think if I were calling the shots I'd want to quickly flip shaddow and project and re-evaluate if the game doesn't end

Project's tone does ping me a bit in spots although I'm not totally sold on him either for reasons I've already talked about

[Aisa]

^does feel legit. Hmm

*blinks innocently*
(:

[Aisa]

Hi shiki! Very happy to have a breath of fresh air

[Aisa]

Yeah I feel like every time I've replaced into a game of this length it's felt unexpectedly hard
Not sure what you mean by "play out like this" but I do think the gamestate has been a been stalled between the holidays and the whole situation with it being day 5 and there still being 10 of us

[Aisa]

How long can my Bella townread resist outside influence? dun dun duuun
Not that it'll likely matter in 24 hours

[Aisa]

If it's you I will just
roll over and admit I cannot read you, I suppose

[Aisa]

I don't think there's anything particularly useful I can say right now, so I will just sit and wait

[Aisa]

Nice try darlins but I know I'm at E-1

[Aisa]

Is this the tastiest crunchiest most delicious taste of death you can give me?

[Aisa]

I have no idea what's going on anymore but I won't complain

[Aisa]

Yeah I thought maybe you were ready to eliminate me anyway

[Aisa]

True true

[Aisa]

Oh I'm sorry I didn't get the hint

[Aisa]

Yeah I thought maybe you were ready to eliminate me anyway

idk there is definitely some part of me who wants to shoot for very most likely within the poe right now

because nothing can possibly go wrong if we eliminate the scums today

Absolutely! That's what I'd be doing if I had a strong guess
But I don't

My Bella townread didn't quite survive btw. I'm a little annoyed this keeps happening because it's day 5 and I should have some conviction by now right??

[Aisa]

Good talk (?)

I got up early to be in this car and now I would like to pass out so see ya

Already voting shaddow so can't help

[Aisa]

Hi all
Um if you simple questions I can answer from a phone I can do that, I suppose

[Aisa]

This is me in a hydra in my most recent scumgame
viewtopic.php?p=13688758#p13688758

Town hmm let me think

[Aisa]

These two towngames might have something
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89984
viewtopic.php?t=91001

[Aisa]

Good work putting up a fight for so long, Jupiter!! I agree you were really difficult to scumread