Mini 2321: Classic Commercials (Postgame)

[Dunnstral]

Hi.

Zoobooks are so cute

Where's your vote?

[Dunnstral]

My meta research on Hu Tao indicates they usually (always?) open with a greeting and no rvs vote, across both alignments

[Dunnstral]

Hi.

Zoobooks are so cute

Where's your vote?

Why did you ask Hu Tao where their vote was but not gob, who also didn't vote?

I did not notice.

[Dunnstral]

Hi.

Zoobooks are so cute

Where's your vote?

Why did you ask Hu Tao where their vote was but not gob, who also didn't vote?

I did not notice.

Why so focused on me then? Something in particular that I did?

I wouldn't say I'm "so focused" on you.

[Dunnstral]

I can just tell by the vibe that MAX one mafia has posted. some of the non-posters so far are mafia for usre.

This is dubious given many people who have posted have simply placed an rvs vote

[Dunnstral]

My meta research on Hu Tao indicates they usually (always?) open with a greeting and no rvs vote, across both alignments

Serious question, Dunn. How often do you actually do meta research?

I occasionally do it. Just last game we were in together when beeboy replaced out I went and looked up their meta for that. Perhaps you don't see that the same way but I did look at their completed games, alignment in those games, and their behaviors; I'd call that meta research.

[Dunnstral]

I won a scum game with Gob recently.

This is similar.

They’re purposeful as scum, yet fluffy and seemingly doing nothing.

They’re doing a very similar thing here.

So basically, I’m countering your meta read with my meta read.

Your read is valid, but for now, I’m happy pushing Gob.

I am noting your meta defense, though. I could be wrong.

Does this read work when we're only on the first few pages of the game?

[Dunnstral]

I guess I'm a super tryhard.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

Why?

is that ur partner or somethin?

I'm just asking the reason for a naked vote.

Sheeping Ssbm_Kyouko

[Dunnstral]

My problem at this point is that if you're scum, this looks like you're trying to fake distance yourself from me. Your scum reads reek of "rule of 3" and your callousness towards me feels out of place yet intentional.

I don’t think this is a post scum roden makes about town gob. It could 100% be a post scum roden makes about scum gob, though, and actually looks worse association wise than anything gob may have been trying to do.

This is scummy imo

[Dunnstral]

Speculating that Gob and Roden could be partners with little evidence to support that

[Dunnstral]

Ummmm. I'm not sure what to think here

Potentially towny post

[Dunnstral]

Seems like something town are more likely to post than mafia. I think mafia are more likely to look for something to say. This is a general read and it can vary by person.

[Dunnstral]

Can Kyouko and Dunn explain the AnimatedWiz votes bc I am possibly amenable to that wagon too but I need to here why u guys went there

It was pointed out that they may have been giving reads too easily. I decided I do not townread them and would be fine voting there.

[Dunnstral]

Can Kyouko and Dunn explain the AnimatedWiz votes bc I am possibly amenable to that wagon too but I need to here why u guys went there

It was pointed out that they may have been giving reads too easily. I decided I do not townread them and would be fine voting there.

What do you think of the gob wagon?

Fl does the same thing every game where they push someone and then once it gains traction turns around and calls that person town. That's why I had zero desire to push Gob knowing that when FL got off the wagon would inevitably collapse.

[Dunnstral]

Has Gob claimed?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: gob

[Dunnstral]

Dunnstral hammering the way they did looks like scum locking in the hammer before people would get PR scared.

I hammered because given what Roden pointed out about Gob's play, I did not believe the claim. I did not want people to unvote, revealing themselves as not a doctor to the mafia; or have to try to push it through because their own role conflicted with what Gob claimed.

[Dunnstral]

Right now I suspect Flavor Leaf and AnimatedWiz.

[Dunnstral]

How come?

For Flavor Leaf I don't like the way they pushed yesterday and now today. For AnimatedWiz I get the sense that they are playing back and trying to blend in while asking others their thoughts while occasionally trying to steer things towards an elimination on people pushing them.

[Dunnstral]

They feel manipulative. Going after Gob yesterday and pushing Bingle and I today.

[Dunnstral]

Dunn isn’t very convincing to me because the reasons he gives are very surface-level, and I do think he’s trying to get rid of me because I’m scumreading him.

Well, no, that's your angle.

[Dunnstral]

Let's be clear here, you're scumreading me because I'm pushing you. Not the other way around.

[Dunnstral]

I can kinda see scum!Dunn wanting to NK Kyouko.

Why?

[Dunnstral]

I do not think that is good logic.

[Dunnstral]

I do not think that is good logic.

Why not?

There is no reason for me to kill kyouko just because their read on another player switched.

[Dunnstral]

Not like she wasn’t obv town though right

Sure, but anybody would have wanted to kill her then.

[Dunnstral]

Wait, I think I understand what you’re saying—that the play benefits me so much that you think I wouldn’t actually do it, and that someone (Dunn) is probably framing me?

Or am I holding the idiot ball again? :oops:

If anybody is trying to frame here, Celebloki is the one who brought up the kill and pointed at people, not I.

[Dunnstral]

@Dunnstral - say you somehow found out that Wiz and I were both conf town, who's scum for you?

Celeboki.

[Thomith comes in and quotes my post and says 'Why?']

They would be setting up to vote from AnimatedWiz after my flip, and their reasoning for suspecting me doesn't seem well though out. The whole triangle th ing doesn't seem well thought out to me.

[Dunnstral]

I'll go over my hammer again... I didn't believe the doctor claim. Leaving gob alive gives other players a chance to unvote gob, which reveals them as not doctor to mafia. Hammering gob also makes mafia think I could be a pr like doctor due to my hammer.

[Dunnstral]

I think AnimatedWiz is having difficulty talking about things other than myself and themself. It feels unnatural - this is what I was talking about in 855.

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

[Dunnstral]

You are only being voted by 2 people. Your reaction seems strange.

[Dunnstral]

Who said that?

[Dunnstral]

Why is Roden voting for me?

I feel like I'm onto something in pointing to AnimatedWiz only being able to talk about me or defend themselves.

[Dunnstral]

Celebloki is being weird and decided trying to get themselves eliminated is a good play. I think It is a better idea to go for someone playing in the background this day phase.

[Dunnstral]

People playing in the background this day phase: AnimatedWiz, Hu Tao, RCEnigma, SirCakez, Thomith

[Dunnstral]

You are going off the assumption that mafia are scrambling to try to save me and piling onto you. I'm not mafia so likely mafia are instead sitting back doing nothing, if you are town. I find Thomith's current position suspect, they apparently want to vote me out but are voting for you instead. AnimatedWiz's iso is 85% about me and 10% defending themself. I mean look at this:

Spoiler:

Hu Tao pops in every so often to say we should eliminate someone but gives no reasoning and then makes a filler post and leaves, and then 24 hours later comes back in and says we should eliminate the same person again with no new reasoning. SirCakez seems to be busy but is angling for you in their latest post - it's a bit of a mystery what they think about me. RCEnigma's last post is saying we need votes for pressure and they're the only player not voting. They have offered some talk of the wagon but not much else, including not giving a clear stance - they just call it 'interesting'.

[Dunnstral]

You're making a lot of sense. I can be behind moving off you onto RC or Cakez. I'm still inclined on giving Hu a pass for today because she plays like this as town anyway.

I'm actually more interested in flip flopping on Naerys. I've also been giving her a pass because I felt like she normally also plays in the background like this, but her last post pinged me. She's responding to my hyperbolic

Spoiler:

Aww man, nothing happened while I was gone. The soup was good. I'm fine with the people voting me, more people should vote me.

I just love all the people coming around saying, "We have 37 days left, lets take it slow" then they leave. Before you know it, everyone will be in here panic-wagoning everyone under the sun 6 hours before deadline because everyone procrastinated.

My criticism in the above was mostly aimed at posts like she makes:

How about slowing down a bit? E-2 when we have like 8 days left?

Comes in and criticizes wagons without adding anything, says to slow down, then disappears again. I've been in too many games recently where the town lukewarmly plods along saying things like this, then we get to deadline and everyone's panicking pushing claims before settling on a mislim.

We have over 6 days left and Cele whimpers something about panic wagoning. Kindly stop trying to make ppl panic, when there is plenty of time left and we have solid targets of suspiction. It feels kinda scummy

Funnily enough she comes into to say the thing I'm criticizing her about. I wasn't panic wagoning in my post, I was saying people like her need to get more active and not lead us into a panic wagon at deadline. Why does everyone seem to want to coast through the Day phase saying to slow down, but then never actually come in and advance anything.

VOTE: Naerys

I didn't include Naerys in my list because when reading her iso I found her to be more aggressive which did not fit with what I was saying. She has a low post count but it is not a large gap from her day 1 play and the posts she does have don't feel like trying to do nothing.

[Dunnstral]

People playing in the background this day phase: AnimatedWiz, Hu Tao, RCEnigma, SirCakez, Thomith

How am I in the background?

You mostly respond to suspicion on yourself or pop in to say you're "still fine" with your vote:

Spoiler:

Interesting night kill?

lol

VOTE: Hu Tao

Why am I scum again?

They feel manipulative. Going after Gob yesterday and pushing Bingle and I today.

I feel I’m pushing Hu Tao more than Bingle here. Me being alive makes Bingle town more likely after their setup yesterday.

Still not sure why I'm being scum read by you. Can you explain?

End of day

gob

(7): Roden,

ssbm_kyouko

, AnimatedWiz, Naerys, Flavor Leaf, RCEnigma, Dunnstral
SirCakez (2): Thomith, Hu Tao
RCEnigma (1): SirCakez
ssbm_kyouko (1): Celebloki
Flavor Leaf (1):

gob

Roden (1): Bingle


Who was the counterwagon? Cakez? I think Wiz was the main counterwagon of Day 1.

1.05

gob

(4): SirCakez, Bingle, Roden, Flavor Leaf
AnimatedWiz (3):

ssbm_kyouko

, Hu Tao, Dunnstral
Flavor Leaf (1):

gob

Hu Tao (1): Naerys
RCEnigma (1): RCEnigma
Dunnstral (1): Thomith

ssbm_kyouko

(1): AnimatedWiz

Not voting (1): Celebloki

Roden and I being on Gob for both of these, Roden never leaving, is pretty townie for them, imo. Like, I just don't see the purpose of going for Gob that way as scum. I won't use that defense for me, but there were much better pushes. It's confirmed to have been a lhf fade. The AnimatedWiz wagon looks bad here. It's a 'there's scum on the wagon, or Wiz is scum' kinda thing.

Gob wagon can have scum or not, i think Gob's the type that scum would for sure just let town try to misfade, which is why I think it's not impossible for either 1.05 or end of day to be all town.

That being said, I think there's only 1 max scum on Gob in 1.05. If there are 2, it doesn't make a lot of sense here that Gob wagon stayed as the main one, even after Bingle/Cakez moved away. And I already explained why it's kinda weird for Roden (and myself, but I digress) to stay on Gob that way.

Also, why is Cakez on RCEnigma over me?

End of day wagon has 1 scum in Dunnstral or Naerys, or no scum at all. I'm already town reading Naerys, but for completionist's sake. RCEnigma, idk, i just dont see this as scum.

Thomith and Hu Tao on SirCakez means there's likely at least a scum in that section, and the fact that overlaps with the Wiz one, I really do think we're living in a Hu Tao Scum world.

Hu Tao, Dunnstral, Cakez is my solve right now.

Sure. Let's vote cakez or Dunn. I'm fine with either you want

I'm okay with voting there VOTE: Dunn

I think we go Dunn still. Bingley I'm not sure om yet. FL I'm leaning town but not sure

I still agree with Dunn gone

Why are you so against Dunn or wiz today?

I don’t remember ever thinking Celebloki was fluffy before.

Also really don’t like the idea of Hu Tao town thinking all 3 hard town reading her are town

Cele could be scum sure, but I would prefer Dunn right now.

You are not saying anything new, have not commented on Celebloki, or really explored other options.

[Dunnstral]

People playing in the background this day phase: AnimatedWiz, Hu Tao, RCEnigma, SirCakez, Thomith

I dont feel like I'm playing in the background. Ik less active today for sure, but that's because I've been busy. I feel like when I have been contributing I have been putting myself out there, rather than only chiming in to defend myself or the like.
Is there anything specific you think I'm doing to "fade into the background" that I can respond to/understand why you think that?

You are going off the assumption that mafia are scrambling to try to save me and piling onto you. I'm not mafia so likely mafia are instead sitting back doing nothing, if you are town. I find Thomith's current position suspect, they apparently want to vote me out but are voting for you instead. AnimatedWiz's iso is 85% about me and 10% defending themself. I mean look at this:

Spoiler:

Hu Tao pops in every so often to say we should eliminate someone but gives no reasoning and then makes a filler post and leaves, and then 24 hours later comes back in and says we should eliminate the same person again with no new reasoning. SirCakez seems to be busy but is angling for you in their latest post - it's a bit of a mystery what they think about me. RCEnigma's last post is saying we need votes for pressure and they're the only player not voting. They have offered some talk of the wagon but not much else, including not giving a clear stance - they just call it 'interesting'.

I voted cele because of the random fluff posting midway through the day that pinged me, and haven't seen a reason to unvote since.

I am also aware that I may be tunelled on you, so am exploring other ideas.

Most of your posts today have been asking other players questions without it being clear what you are getting from it, and lazily continuing your push on me.

Spoiler:

In all seriousness, Bingle/Dunn have partner equity imo.

Why do you think they have partner equity?

How come?

For Flavor Leaf I don't like the way they pushed yesterday and now today. For AnimatedWiz I get the sense that they are playing back and trying to blend in while asking others their thoughts while occasionally trying to steer things towards an elimination on people pushing them.

You don't like the fact that they are pushing or you don't like exactly how they are pushing?

Interesting night kill?

What do you mean by this? Why was Kyouko an interesting night kill?

I think I trust Hu Tao

Why?

Thom who do you scumread the most today?

I still feel suspicious mostly of Dunnstral, As I've said before I suspected him early on, and I haven't really seen much to make me feel any better about him so far today.

I do not think that is good logic.

Why not?

VOTE: Dunn

E-2

How about slowing down a bit? E-2 when we have like 8 days left?

Who are you scumreading?

I have someone else I want to put some pressure on, but I think I want to wait a bit for people to come in and react to the current things before I move on.

I’m open to a Dunn/Wiz town/town world.

Is it thomith? I bet it’s thomith. Hey everybody, if you vote thomith now you can accuse FL of sheeping you in the post game.

Did you think I should be pressured?

I have someone else I want to put some pressure on, but I think I want to wait a bit for people to come in and react to the current things before I move on.

I’m open to a Dunn/Wiz town/town world.

Is it thomith? I bet it’s thomith. Hey everybody, if you vote thomith now you can accuse FL of sheeping you in the post game.

Did you think I should be pressured?

Yes. I have embarrassingly few reads and it feels like scum is leading town around by the nose here. Ime that means there’s scum in the “well they make sense so they’re town” pile, and you’re like… poster child for that pile.

I feel like I'm not one of the main people leading the game, so why do you think I make the most sense as being scum here when there are others doing more leading than I am, if you feel scum are "leading town around by the nose"?

[Dunnstral]

Why would I say I got a No Result on kyouko if I was lying about my claim though. I could just as easily say I got VT on her. I honestly didn't feel like my crumb was very well hidden and I regretted crumbing it. My best guess is scum have a roleblocker and saw my crumb and used it on me. Might as well flip me, they'll just keep role blocking me so I get no information.

I'm not too sure it makes sense to flip you just because of setup spec of Mafia potentially hand a role blocker that saw your soft, because I dont actually think it was that obvious personally. It's a potential, but there are other things that could explain it instead.

I'd rather keep celeb around for now I think, to see what happens in future nights?

This is a Simple set up, so only Roleblocker and Jailkeeper could have messed with his action. The results he claimed don't match up with the wiki though because he should've been blatantly told that his action failed.

What is wrong with the claim of no result? Is that not when you get when you are blocked?

[Dunnstral]

Why would I say I got a No Result on kyouko if I was lying about my claim though. I could just as easily say I got VT on her. I honestly didn't feel like my crumb was very well hidden and I regretted crumbing it. My best guess is scum have a roleblocker and saw my crumb and used it on me. Might as well flip me, they'll just keep role blocking me so I get no information.

I'm not too sure it makes sense to flip you just because of setup spec of Mafia potentially hand a role blocker that saw your soft, because I dont actually think it was that obvious personally. It's a potential, but there are other things that could explain it instead.

I'd rather keep celeb around for now I think, to see what happens in future nights?

This is a Simple set up, so only Roleblocker and Jailkeeper could have messed with his action. The results he claimed don't match up with the wiki though because he should've been blatantly told that his action failed.

Isn't a No Result him being told his action failed though?

Neap specifically does not get a No Result PM, they get told that their action failed. I don't think this is a mod error either, considering both Gamma and DE have been keeping an active eye on the game.

OK you are right this doesn't line up with the wiki.

[Dunnstral]

Celebloki is not mafia, they are telling the truth, and no mod error has occured. Explanation coming.

[Dunnstral]

Why would I say I got a No Result on kyouko if I was lying about my claim though. I could just as easily say I got VT on her. I honestly didn't feel like my crumb was very well hidden and I regretted crumbing it. My best guess is scum have a roleblocker and saw my crumb and used it on me. Might as well flip me, they'll just keep role blocking me so I get no information.

I'm not too sure it makes sense to flip you just because of setup spec of Mafia potentially hand a role blocker that saw your soft, because I dont actually think it was that obvious personally. It's a potential, but there are other things that could explain it instead.

I'd rather keep celeb around for now I think, to see what happens in future nights?

This is a Simple set up, so only Roleblocker and Jailkeeper could have messed with his action. The results he claimed don't match up with the wiki though because he should've been blatantly told that his action failed.

What is wrong with the claim of no result? Is that not when you get when you are blocked?

I always tell myself when I roll PRs, I'm gonna refuse to claim them but I never do. I'm just gonna full claim it and my target.

I'm a Town Neapolitan. My N1 was a waste because I targeted Kyouko. Interestingly I got a 'No Result' response. I assume because she died.

A Vanilla Townie will return a result of "target is a Vanilla Townie"; other players will give a result of "target is not a Vanilla Townie". If the action fails (e.g. due to a roleblocker), the result will be "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result".

Yeah, this might actually be a technical scum slip by Celebloki too.


So I should know this, but it’s still new with these tags, Simple labeled games DO NOT give No Result to a roleblocked.

This is specifically different in Simple games is what’s being said?

Every other queue it would have been ‘No Result’

Where does it say that Simple Games have to clarify that an action failed?

It says how it behaves in normal versions on the Neapolitan page.

It says the following:

Normal version

This role is allowed in Simple Normal games.

A Neapolitan investigates a player to determine whether or not they are a Vanilla Townie. A Vanilla Townie will return a result of "target is a Vanilla Townie"; other players will give a result of "target is not a Vanilla Townie". If the action fails (e.g. due to a roleblocker), the result will be "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result".

However, it's worth noting that the sample role pm does not mention this at all, this is presumably what caused either Celebloki or potentially even the mods to slip up here:

Example (simplest form)

Welcome to game! You are a

Town Neapolitan.

You have the following active ability:

Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player is a Vanilla Townie.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

The Simple Normal page does not mention that roleblocks behave as shown in the top.

The Roleblocker page agrees with the Neapolitan page.

The page says the following:

The blocked player will not normally be told that they have been blocked (unless they used an investigative role and thus were expecting a results PM, in which case the moderator will let them know that their action failed). The blocked player will never receive misleading results, e.g. a blocked Tracker will get a result like "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result", and never something like "Your target went nowhere".

The Jailkeeper page

says the opposite

, and for this reason I believe this could have been confusion on what the correct course of action is, rather than Celebloki lying.

The page says the following:

Normal version

This role is allowed in Simple Normal games.

A Jailkeeper that simultaneously blocks and protects their target is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, provided that any mutual blocking scenarios are planned for during review. Any role that receives results (such as Tracker or Watcher) but is blocked as a result of being targeted by a Jailkeeper should receive a "no result" message, rather than told their target didn't go anywhere or nobody visited their target. A Jailkeeper cannot stop a Juggernaut from committing a kill (regardless of who they target), and does not prevent other players from targeting their target with non-killing actions (e.g. if a Watcher and Jailkeeper target the same player, the Watcher will see the Jailkeeper's action).

Highlighting the relevant text above:

Any role that receives results (such as Tracker or Watcher) but is blocked as a result of being targeted by a Jailkeeper should receive a "no result" message, rather than told their target didn't go anywhere or nobody visited their target.

Thus, if the moderator looked to the Jailkeeper page, rather than the Neapolitan page, when determining what message to send out, a message of "no result", while perhaps somebodies mistake, does not seem to be our game mods mistake, and a jailkeeper targeting Celebloki would allow for Celebloki to be telling the truth without any error, despite what the page for Neapoilitan says should happen.

I rest my case.

[Dunnstral]

This is specifically different in Simple games is what’s being said?

Every other queue it would have been ‘No Result’

No, in any normal queue it should be "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result"... is what the Neapolitan and Roleblocker pages say under "Normal version". Confusion stems from it also saying the role is allowed in simple normal games, but the rules are meant to be for all normal games where they are allowed.

[Dunnstral]

I don't think it is accurate to say I came out of hiding to defend Celebloki

[Dunnstral]

I was leaning towards not wanting to vote them out pre-claim, so now that they've claimed a strong power role I don't see why I would vote for them. Maybe they get blocked for a few nights and then the mafia role that can do that dies and they need to kill Celebloki.

[Dunnstral]

That is true. They could be the only investigative power we have, which would make it clear they are town once we all claim later.

It's pretty clear that eliminating Celebloki is the wrong play and the only reason to do it is if we are impatient, really.

[Dunnstral]

It's interesting that you agree with 1304 and accuse others of being mafia and then repeat the same argument already made for Celebloki being town

[Dunnstral]

Your argument in 1308 is:

a) mech
b) the same argument being made at the top of this page

It's not a bad argument, but it seems at odds with what you posted in 1307: That scum are the ones defending Celebloki. But you agree with the reasoning being given.

[Dunnstral]

I am not keen on voting for you or for Naerys right now. My preference is Awiz but we seem to be ignoring them.

[Dunnstral]

Alright... this situation requires some thinking

UNVOTE:

[Dunnstral]

AnimatedWiz, you should be the person who most wants to leave Celebloki alive to check their role.

You say your roles are similar, but how would your role produce a guilty on mafia? Or a clear on town?

[Dunnstral]

You have an ability that allows you to determine whether they are lying or telling the truth.

[Dunnstral]

What is a role that only town could have?

[Dunnstral]

But you said you don't believe there can be 2 investigative roles in 1335, so you're not expecting a cop.

Friendly neighbor and Mason don't need a rolecop to check them to be confirmed town. Neither does Innocent Child.

Vigilante is obvious because an extra person dies - again, doesn't need to be checked.

[Dunnstral]

Notably, there is technically a possibility of a Scum Neapolitan—I don’t think it’s likely, but it does kind of confirm someone as a town PR if they don’t receive a Vanilla Townie result on someone. Bit wonky, though.

I think that Bingle is saying that if you are a town rolecop, this kind of setup "gotcha" is unlikely to be used in a simple game. Specifically Celebloki being a mafia-aligned Neapolitan when there are simpler roles, such as Vanilla Cop, that mafia could have.

[Dunnstral]

I believe that town Role Cop is a weak standalone role for town's investigative power and that it does not make sense as the only investigative. It is about as powerful as a tracker, roughly. Neapolitan is much more powerful, and is slightly below the power of a normal Cop.

I think your plan to eliminate Celebloki and target somebody else is a very bad plan, and that you should instead target Celebloki with the belief that mafia can only block one of you two, and see what happens.

[Dunnstral]

And again, there’s the possibility that Celebloki is just lying about his role.

In which case role copping them would be a great use of your role.

[Dunnstral]

I get that you don't trust me. If the majority of players come on and agree that you should role cop Celebloki, would you do it?

[Dunnstral]

Neapolitan determines whether a player is a vanilla townie.

So role cop checks you Hu Tao and sees "Vanilla". You could be a vanilla townie, or a mafia good; this is not clearing. If a Neapolitan checks you, they are checking whether or not you are a vanilla townie. They get a yes result if you are a vanilla townie, and a no result if you are a mafia goon; this is a clearing role, and this results in a big difference in power.

In order for Role Cop to be useful, there are only a few players in the game that they can check and produce meaningful results on; town power roles and mafia power roles, and even then there is confusion about what is what.

All Neapolitan has to do is check a player who is not a power role, which is much easier

[Dunnstral]

I would definitely prefer to not be the wagon today for obvious reasons, but I really don’t understand the push for me.

Anyway, I’m not going to just sit around and die.

I’m the

Town Role Cop

, and Hu Tao is a vanilla role. Part of the reason I’m pushing Celebloki is due to doubt about there being two Town investigative roles—does that explain my push on them better?

Oh.. awkward. I thought someone else softed an innocent on me. But if you had that, why would you be willing to compromise a vote on me? Also this likely means a scum in Cele and Wiz. I don't see town having both? I'll think this over

Vanilla from a Rolecop isn't an innocent?

Nope; the target can still be a mafia goon as that is the "vanilla" role for mafia, and role cop is not intended to give direct alignment information

[Dunnstral]

Hm, those posts collated together does seem a convincing argument. I, uh, admit I’m bad at reading Hu Tao, since they’re always very laconic and don’t provide much info early (which I’ve come to learn is a way to survive into the endgame), but the logic makes sense.

I would not prefer Hu Tao over Celebloki or Dunn due to some uncertainty, but if I have to compromise I won’t complain.

Like if I had a vanilla result on someone I'm not sure I'd be even willing to compromise. Yes they could be goon but I wouldn't vote out my checks especially when unsure.

You being vanilla means little.

[Dunnstral]

Except to know that you are not a mafia roleblocker/jailkeeper. But that's only 1 of 3 mafia.

[Dunnstral]

Who was the Scum being voted though?

[Dunnstral]

I don't think the balance works out if Role Cop is our only investigative pwoer, so either Celebloki is that person or there is another town investigative which has not claimed yet

[Dunnstral]

I think Role Cop is too weak to be the sole investigative

[Dunnstral]

[Dunnstral]

what is a 'tentpole role'?

[Dunnstral]

I am unsure on who the mafia are. Not confident SirCakez is one but not against it. I feel against Hu Tao or Bingle.

[Dunnstral]

Why did you voted Dunn?

[Dunnstral]

That is some wild reasoning.

[Dunnstral]

Do you think I'm making it up

Not really I guess

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: SirCakez

[Dunnstral]

I'm VT

Not sure what Bingle thinks I was "telegraphing so hard"

[Dunnstral]

Whatever I'll just claim.

I'm Town Jailkeeper.

This was why I kept saying I believed Celebloki when he said he was roleblocked Night 1, because he was my night 1 target. I also said that I thought Bingles (at least I think it was Bingle) theory about a Jailkeeper made sense, because I knew he was right, because I was a Jailkeeper.
I wasnt confident I'd be able to protect correctly Night 1, so I instead tried to block the kill by targeting someone I suspected. I targeted off wagon, for the WIFOM reason that scum may think someone on the wagon might be targeted by a town roleblock, so sent someone off wagon to do the kill instead.

I Jailkept Flavor Night 2, because I did believe that the Rolecop/Neap were on opposing factions, so assumed both claims would live through the night, so instead Jailkept a Vanilla claim I thought was likely to be attacked.

Tl;dr:
I'm claiming Jailkeeper
Night 1 Target was Celebloki
Night 2 Target was FL

That was me. Maybe flip a coin to decide if you are jailkeeping Celebloki tonight.

[Dunnstral]

OK I think Celebloki has a possibility of being mafia with the role claims. I think Roden's claim if investigated by the town rolecop could be assumed to be town, given town has no vigilante. Celebloki would likely be a mafia power role who would know when their action fails. It's hard to say because 3-4 power roles seems correct and the roles we have still seems on the weak side if Celebloki is mafia. Maybe the rolecop is stronger than we thing depending on mafia roles.

I am alright with looking elsewhere today though, just something I am keeping in mind. I doubt the jailkeeper claim is a fake. Roden if mafia would be claiming to keep Celebloki in the suspect pool because with only 3 power roles claimed I would be ready to call Celebloki town. I think the role cop dying makes Celebloki look worse.

[Dunnstral]

I am leaning towards believing Roden's claim.

So I think if there is mafia in the prs it is Celebloki.

[Dunnstral]

Whatever I'll just claim.

I'm Town Jailkeeper.

This was why I kept saying I believed Celebloki when he said he was roleblocked Night 1, because he was my night 1 target. I also said that I thought Bingles (at least I think it was Bingle) theory about a Jailkeeper made sense, because I knew he was right, because I was a Jailkeeper.
I wasnt confident I'd be able to protect correctly Night 1, so I instead tried to block the kill by targeting someone I suspected. I targeted off wagon, for the WIFOM reason that scum may think someone on the wagon might be targeted by a town roleblock, so sent someone off wagon to do the kill instead.

I Jailkept Flavor Night 2, because I did believe that the Rolecop/Neap were on opposing factions, so assumed both claims would live through the night, so instead Jailkept a Vanilla claim I thought was likely to be attacked.

Tl;dr:
I'm claiming Jailkeeper
Night 1 Target was Celebloki
Night 2 Target was FL

That was me. Maybe flip a coin to decide if you are jailkeeping Celebloki tonight.

Why Celeb specifically?

OK I think Celebloki has a possibility of being mafia with the role claims. I think Roden's claim if investigated by the town rolecop could be assumed to be town, given town has no vigilante. Celebloki would likely be a mafia power role who would know when their action fails. It's hard to say because 3-4 power roles seems correct and the roles we have still seems on the weak side if Celebloki is mafia. Maybe the rolecop is stronger than we thing depending on mafia roles.

I am alright with looking elsewhere today though, just something I am keeping in mind. I doubt the jailkeeper claim is a fake. Roden if mafia would be claiming to keep Celebloki in the suspect pool because with only 3 power roles claimed I would be ready to call Celebloki town. I think the role cop dying makes Celebloki look worse.

Yeah I was thinking similarly. If no other PR claimed i was probably going to locktown celeb, because JK and RC only seems weak for town.

I'm honestly still kind of struggling to see RC/Neap being together, but dont think I wanna aim there today.

Celeb because I was thinking they were town at the time and if it is ambigious if you will target them there is a chance they live and get their action off. Not sure anymore, it's not too bad if they are killed given our distrust

[Dunnstral]

Well nothing to really defend. The slot has not made a lot of waves. What I remember is they voted gob and was sheeping FL on day 1, and on day 2 came up with the triangle theory of AnimatedWiz, Naerys, and myself.

[Dunnstral]

nah, still worth openly saying the coin flip scenarios, if only for the potential of a town Celeb getting more VT confirmations.

The whole point is that JK targeting Celeb makes it a 0% chance that there are more VT confirmations, AND in the situation where celeb is scum bakes in a reason that celeb doesn't have to have a result tomorrow.

There's also a 0% chance of more vt confirmations if they die during the night because the jk absolutely won't go there

In any case my opinion changed and it's not that bad if Celebloki dies given we suspect there. Only issue is if they are mafia they can simply perform the kill meaning our jk doesn't help anyway.

[Dunnstral]

Given that Roden isn't pushing me I'm inclined to believe at least one of the people they are pushing right now is indeed mafia in the vts, just based off of numbers

[Dunnstral]

Not to say they're town for not pushing me. But they are likely to be pushing mafia right now IMO so either town or bussing, and town makes more sense to me

[Dunnstral]

Is it possible Thomith is a Scum Blocker claiming Jailkeeper?

I like Role Cop/Neap/BP better than the combos with JK.

I disagree I think JK town makes the most sense

[Dunnstral]

This is a hard decision. I am leaning towards voting Bingle over Roden.

[Dunnstral]

This is a hard decision. I am leaning towards voting Bingle over Roden.

Why?

I don't think it's Roden

[Dunnstral]

I think it's Celebloki and Flavor Leaf.

[Dunnstral]

I think it's Celebloki and Flavor Leaf.

wait, aren't there 3 Scum? b r u h

I don't know who the last mafia would be yet.

I am an Even Night Gunsmith. I got No Result on Night 2.

No you aren't. You got checked as a VT in 1821. If that's not true you should have voted for Celebloki the previous day.

[Dunnstral]

Maestro hopping on Cele is either really bad play or scummy. It kinda reeks with trying to put some psychological pressure on us. Sheepier townies would give in to that and allow speedy mislim.
I dont like Celebloki´s hammer and his reasoning for it, but that Maestro´s vote... the more i think about the less i like it. Its timing, they way he voted.
I dont think i can see a universe where Cele+Maestro are alligned? For scum to fake guilty and his buddy trying to buss him at this point does not make sense. Bingle and Maestro probably buddies
Therefore Bingle+Maestro+Dunn feels rather likely to me

There's something off about this. Your read on Celeboki is only based on them hammering without considering the rest. And your reasoning for flipping your read is based on something that only happened today too.

[Dunnstral]

@Dunn - If I were conf town, who would be the scum team for you?

Celeboki and Maestro, and then 1 more, probably between Naerys and Bingle

[Dunnstral]

@Dunn - I know I've burned you in the past. It's not happening here. I am town. If you're town, we have to come together.

I think Naerys is town here too.

Well I think you're mafia for being manipulative in this game and repeatedly pushing town and then trying to shift blame

[Dunnstral]

I'm leaning celeb and flavor scum. Trying to find the last

This is a scum claim for multiple reasons:

1: It implies Hu Tao thinks that I hard pocketed Bingle from the very beginning of the game. Dunn also would need to think this, but I feel like Dunn wasn't in finished analyzing mode, where as it's obvious Hu Tao's looking to pounce.

2: Hu Tao said "still looking for a 3rd". This is the big one. From a Town Tao POV, they know that it's one of Bingle/Celeb. They picked Celeb. They know it's one of Maestro/Flavor. They chose Flavor. They are directly agreeing with Dunnstral's point. This literally only leaves Naerys. How are they "still looking for a 3rd"?

In addition to the case I pushed on them early on in the game, starting Day 1. Hu Tao was expecting to be the one to 1v1 Celebloki here, and hoping to over Bingle. Bingle was not trying to have Celebloki target me because I got pigeonhole defended behind Celebloki.

My town core has been dying off.

First Kyouko, who I pushed as never being scum based on the way they made their case on Gob.

Then Wiz and Thomith, 2 players I've been town locked with since the beginning of the game.

I am confident that scum is Hu Tao/Maestro. Celebloki doesn't die because if Celebloki died last night, I'd be confirmed town, and Thomith and I would be linked up incredibly tight. Thomith is NOT a kill I make with 3 scum alive.

Dunnstral, you are the clutch vote. Please see why Naerys and I are town here.

Well to me Celebloki seems to be the most likely mafia given flips and them not dying at night.

[Dunnstral]

But the ones who DIED at night are the ones that were town reading me AND that I was town reading since Day 1.

OK, can you show me. Sometimes you say things and they aren't true.

[Dunnstral]

@Dunn - If I were conf town, who would be the scum team for you?

Celeboki and Maestro, and then 1 more, probably between Naerys and Bingle

Celeb cant be scum with Bingle.

Why not?

[Dunnstral]

@Dunn - I know I've burned you in the past. It's not happening here. I am town. If you're town, we have to come together.

I think Naerys is town here too.

Well I think you're mafia for being manipulative in this game and repeatedly pushing town and then trying to shift blame

Do you think it could be flavor celeb naerys?

Hesitant to call a team of 3 right now, I'm not really sure that it's Naerys, though I thought their posts today were suspect. Might need to do soem partner analysis if other mafia flip

[Dunnstral]

I wouldn't vote for Naerys today

[Dunnstral]

@Dunn - If I were conf town, who would be the scum team for you?

Celeboki and Maestro, and then 1 more, probably between Naerys and Bingle

Celeb cant be scum with Bingle.

Why not?

Celeb claimed Not VT on Bingle, Bingle claimed Vanilla. This means one of them are lying.

In theory, I guess they both could be scum and gambiting, but Bingle specifically stated, they didnt want Celeb to target me.

I believe this was because they no longer could kill Celeb without confirming me as town.

Well town has to get every elimination right now. I think some distancing here instead of acting as a block of 3 is a pretty likely play

[Dunnstral]

Why is it Hu Tao?

[Dunnstral]

flavor

VC 2.04

VC 2.04

Dunnstral (4): Hu Tao, Celebloki, AnimatedWiz, Roden
Celebloki (4): Thomith, Flavor Leaf, Naerys, Bingle
Naerys (1): SirCakez
AnimatedWiz (1): Dunnstral

Not voting (1): RCEnigma

It takes 6 votes to eliminate someone.

Deadline: (expired on 2023-12-28 00:59:40).

Combined mod ISO: here.

[Dunnstral]

I'm leaning celeb and flavor scum. Trying to find the last

w3tf?

This is a scum claim for multiple reasons:

[ ... ]

2: Hu Tao said "still looking for a 3rd". This is the big one. From a Town Tao POV, they know that it's one of Bingle/Celeb. They picked Celeb. They know it's one of Maestro/Flavor. They chose Flavor. They are directly agreeing with Dunnstral's point. This literally only leaves Naerys. How are they "still looking for a 3rd"?

I...actually agree w this! [unv][/unv]

willing to vote Hu Tao at some point but very annoyed w/ FLeaf for thinking it's me thast goes today

if you wanna keep calling me"so bad I must b3e scum!" that's fine, but we still need to lim in Bingle/Celeb today & if FLeaf somehow thinks both are Town I'm rly fucking confused here about what he expects to do by swerving the elim for today over on me

In addition to the case I pushed on them early on in the game, starting Day 1. Hu Tao was expecting to be the one to 1v1 Celebloki here, and hoping to over Bingle. Bingle was not trying to have Celebloki target me because I got pigeonhole defended behind Celebloki.

My town core has been dying off.

I am confident that scum is Hu Tao/Maestro. Celebloki doesn't die because if Celebloki died last night, I'd be confirmed town, and Thomith and I would be linked up incredibly tight. Thomith is NOT a kill I make with 3 scum alive.

Dunnstral, you are the clutch vote. Please see why Naerys and I are town here.

"you town core" ok bud & I am confident it's Celeb/FLeaf after this white-knight of a Day, Dunn, plz see that :roll:

explain the bolded plz, FLeaf

Maestro hopping on Cele is either really bad play or scummy. It kinda reeks with trying to put some psychological pressure on us. Sheepier townies would give in to that and allow speedy mislim.
I dont like Celebloki´s hammer and his reasoning for it, but that Maestro´s vote... the more i think about the less i like it. Its timing, they way he voted.
I dont think i can see a universe where Cele+Maestro are alligned? For scum to fake guilty and his buddy trying to buss him at this point does not make sense. Bingle and Maestro probably buddies
Therefore Bingle+Maestro+Dunn feels rather likely to me

You don't think flavors jump on maestro was equally as bad btw?

Hu isn't scum w/ Flavor, which we kindas knew; but I could see Naerys/FLeaf/Celeb easily after some of the last page or2

It’s really not fleaf. I think m is voting with me because it’s a safe play. If they get support on me, he can just hammer. The lim is never outside of me celeb, so poisoning the well on the celeb wagon with a shit vote just makes sense, and if we vote right and get to see tomorrow he looks better because he jumped onto celeb early.

He just really didn’t expect me to have such strength in my fleaf read.

:lol: ex-cuse me? shit vote? on the person that fake-guiltied? in a setup this power-heavy where they're claiming another full PR!?

It's mentioned again later but it's weird that you are treating Flavor Leaf as if they can be town and you are annoyed with them for suspecting you. They are absolutely confirmed mafia to you.

[Dunnstral]

I’m playing in a Timothy-AWiz town core mode.

Thomith*

Autocorrects me to Timothy lol

This is one example from Day 1. This happened throughout the game. I went back and forth for like a second on each of them, but on Day 3, I specifically stated if Thomith is scum, I'm content letting them win. I'll find that for you as well.

If these are they players that were townreading you when they died, they were both power roles so had to be killed for that reason.

[Dunnstral]

I called out Gob and Wiz as both likely to be town ( i did push Gob heavily at one point, but I was actively calling them town, and it was just time to get them)

I was correct on Kyouko when I said they were likely town for the Gob case.

I was correct on Thomith.

I called out that Kyouko/Hu Tao on Animated Wiz likely had scum on it, and makes a lot of sense for Hu TaoScum/Kyouko town.

With Wiz also flipping town, Hu Tao is almost always scum here.



IN ADDITION, they had already lined up the Bingle/Celeb 1v1, then the Maestro/FL 1v1, and yet fence sit for Naerys/Dunnstral DESPITE talking about town reading you.

Well I feel that you had a big part in pushing through a lot of the miseliminations like Roden

[Dunnstral]

I want to give other people a chance to respond too.

[Dunnstral]

It is hard for me to figure out Celebloki or Naerys alignment.

Naerys how do you feel about being the only person suspecting me?

[Dunnstral]

but that doesnt work with my own suspictions-Maestro,Bingle,Dunn.

Flavor leaf is voting for Hu Tao, there should be mafia between them.

[Dunnstral]

I did not see the connection, if that was a mistake it was on accident

[Dunnstral]

What do you think of 2467 Naerys?

[Dunnstral]

I'm about ready to place my vote and end the day unless you two feel there is more that needs to be discussed.

[Dunnstral]

I'm interpreting this vague silence as a no for the discussion part.

[Dunnstral]

I'm about ready to place my vote and end the day unless you two feel there is more that needs to be discussed.

You're free to vote

Alright thanks

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Dunnstral]

My bad Hu Tao. Didn't think it was Flavor Leaf after some time but wasn't expecting for you to both be town.

[Dunnstral]

Oh actually mafia had quick hammer for about a day but didn't take it. Right, that's why I didn't think you were both town...

[Dunnstral]

No I wouldn't have ever thought they could both be town while cross voting this day phase.