Large Normal 247 - Postgame

[Gypyx]

Rawr

[Gypyx]

VOTE: Snow

[Gypyx]

all aboard everyone

[Gypyx]

all aboard everyone

Only if it’s a party bus

this is a clown car and i'm the one at the wheel

[Gypyx]

Hi

Hi HuTaw, got anything to say in your defense?

[Gypyx]

I claim VT

me too

[Gypyx]

You sound nervous Willow

[Gypyx]

I'm telling i'm seeing through your words and i can tell your little mafia legs are trembling in fear

[Gypyx]

folks on speedwagon:gypyx,thomith,titus,geraintm,wisp
mhm

i want more

[Gypyx]

Penguin is based

[Gypyx]

this is beautiful

*sheds a tear*

[Gypyx]

UNVOTE:

Let's not actually do this lmao

i'm very much dissapointed in you Thomith

[Gypyx]

UNVOTE:

Let's not actually do this lmao

i'm very much dissapointed in you Thomith

Not as disappointed as it is in all of you. Do you truly think this is an acceptable method to find scum? There are members here whose votes it understands. For whom it believes there is merit and a town mental model for approaching a wagon in this manner. It does not make it less disappointed in the very existence of this wagon.

yeah i do, i fact i think i've got one

VOTE: Little Will o wisp

[Gypyx]

note to self: read the 2nd page first

I don't think it's a bad thing to hit an E-1 like that, it will certainly provide good material.

What material? A Poisoned Well Opening to the game? Town or Scum, what player reacts within normal ranges to almost dying before ever hitting the thread? Do you think yourself so enlightened in the ways of player mentality that you will be able to discern town confusion and outrage from the scum variant? It doesn't think anyone can, reliably, and rather thinks that most natural responses from a player in that slot will be traditionally seen as scummy.

It dislikes the very idea. There's no foundation to base the reaction off of, so there's no baseline to test against.

while a big part of this will not be exploitable yet, it will get better as we get flips, since this is very early, these will also be very pure / unfiltered reactions

[Gypyx]

UNVOTE:

Let's not actually do this lmao

i'm very much dissapointed in you Thomith

Trust me I'm disappointed in myself too lol.

Of course it would have been funny if this had actually gone through, but I got cold feet

With that being said, I do want to get some information out of Day 1 that a quick lim probably doesn't get us.

Naerys is probably right that there is a decent chance that the scum might have been hiding on the wagon as it was growing

I mean, a quick day 1 also gives our PRs extremely potent cover, but i totally get where you're coming from

[Gypyx]

obliving sure says a lot of words but i'm not sure if it makes it town yet

i'm kinda curious about how Penguin following usual penguin meta makes him more likely town when like, sheeping on a page 1 wagon is not the hardest thing in the world

[Gypyx]

obliving sure says a lot of words but i'm not sure if it makes it town yet

i'm kinda curious about how Penguin following usual penguin meta makes him more likely town when like, sheeping on a page 1 wagon is not the hardest thing in the world

It isn't meta, but rather a mental model. It attempts to make models of player behaviour by playing with and understanding how they will react situationally. It seeks to understand, then apply these lessons by asking itself to think within that mental model, and whether the response makes sense or if there is an outside influence that is affecting that response, then seeking motivation from being in that Model.

Having played precisely one game with Penguin, as it being scum, it got to see much of how Penguin approaches a game. It thinks that the teasing, off the cuff but effective manner in which Penguin approached his vote fits within its model of him and so it sees him most strongly as town from that.

Here is a question in return for you. If indeed the creation and reaction to these wagons are indicative of finding scum and town and sorting alignments, why is its method less effective than yours? What methods are you using, and from these interactions who is town or scum to you?

I think the human psyche is hard to understeand, and a sample size of one seems prone for mistakes and such

specifically, i'm looking for reactions that are hard to fake / scum failing to fail a reaction, willow in my opinions fits into this category as he made a sheep onto the wagon while also showing uneasiness around it, a pretty contradictory mindset, and one telling he's afraid of acting "wrong" (this is based on the shrug emoji for instance)

[Gypyx]

i'm also curious where Naerys goes from here

[Gypyx]

for the record i'm always acting manipulative as town, this is nothing new

[Gypyx]

my main early wagon theory is that scum feels pretty major social pressure to fit in, and as such will try to get in by any means

[Gypyx]

for the record i'm always acting manipulative as town, this is nothing new

Meta can be misleading, so i am not going to put my fait on this, sorry.

i'm not telling you to townread me for it, just saying this is ususal Gypyx behaviour

[Gypyx]

come murder willow with me Hu Tao

[Gypyx]

Good morning fellow townies!

Hello Nas

good to see you rolled town

[Gypyx]

specifically, i'm looking for reactions that are hard to fake / scum failing to fail a reaction, willow in my opinions fits into this category as he made a sheep onto the wagon while also showing uneasiness around it, a pretty contradictory mindset, and one telling he's afraid of acting "wrong" (this is based on the shrug emoji for instance)

I'm reading this paragraph over and over. I don't get it. How is what I did "failing to fail" a reaction?

And what do you mean "for instance"? The shrug emoticon is the only thing I besides voting.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

VOTE: Snow

[insert cool and creative entrance here]

This is extremely self-conscious behaviour, both in the feeling like your entrance isn't good enough and you adding a shrug emoji basically means you join the wagon without actually being on board with it, something that's more likely for scum to do

[Gypyx]

Nah it’s definitely red, did you just try and trick me into claiming evil smh. Everyone knows the mustard coloured people are the ones to watch out for

this is colonel mustard slander

[Gypyx]

anyways so far Thomith nas and random nurse are pretty strongly town i feel

[Gypyx]

still wanna murder willow

[Gypyx]

You just feel different than usual. And so does Dave. But I think Dave is more different

Oh, please do tell me what feels different to you, Hu

Humor me.

RN is sus too right now. Why so much sus.

I don’t sus him at all at the moment, what am I missing?

...

...and why don't you suss me at all at the moment?

My feeling of you right now is based on our previous games together as well as one I watched as it was playing out. The things you are doing feel like how I’ve seen you as town previously. So far nothing feels off or too far removed from your other town games. (that I’ve personally experienced or watched) We’ll see if that changes as time goes on.

...

Do be aware that despite me saying I'm terrible as Mafia I do have rare moments of being very good at it if I'm feeling it.

Point is, don't get too trusting.

[Gypyx]

Penguin and thomith are my loyal minions obeying my every command

[Gypyx]

what did willow do to get so many votes?

his vibes are extremely off

[Gypyx]

the obsession over your own wagon is also a part of said "vibes"

[Gypyx]

So... I'm under suspicion for defending myself from suspicion?

Yeah that's the idea

[Gypyx]

I still think we should go dave

I could do dave too

[Gypyx]

he hasn't really done anything good either and it's not like he doesn't have any posts

[Gypyx]

It's like, Dave isn't priority but if we can't do Willow i'll see what this is all about

[Gypyx]

There should be a guide on writing good and readable posts

[Gypyx]

I still think one of Naerys, Kay and Oblivion is scum for their response to the Snow wagon. And Naerys is the only one of those three who commented on it (when she complained about my mocking tone).

I tried to pick a fight with Naerys, but unfortunately she declined to give me one.

Bold of you to accuse 3 people that aren’t currently voting for you when you only need 3 more votes to get hammered. Thats fun, I like it.

Not sure how much I like this post

Because?

It feels like posting to look like you are present, without really adding much? I feel like there is a world where this comes from scum trying to look like they are contributing through commenting on things, when those comments don't necessarily progress anywhere.

To be fair though, that could be saying more about the current game state than your alignment.

I do agree that it's digging very deep for something that's a bit far fetched

[Gypyx]

as in the original KJQ comment was far fetched, it also comes from a weirdly adversarial view of the game? Idk, doesn't seem natural

[Gypyx]

VC

Never mind, we don't need one.

lazy mod

[Gypyx]

Hey game is dead. Wonder why? Wisp is prolly town.

Gonna have to look at this post back is wisp flips town

why not dave being town too?

[Gypyx]

Indeed, I too find that in the realm of wagon dynamics, also known as wagonomics, nestled snugly within the town/scum-plane curvature of said wagon's interior, lies a peculiar point dubbed "Point PP3" or the PenguinPoint. This enigmatic locus defies conventional wagon analysis, oscillating between states of scum-like ambiguity and town-like absurdity. Its coordinates, expressed purely in the language of mathematics, would be as follows: (π^2 + √5, 2.71828...).

It is here, within the confines of Point PP3, the laws of wagonomics intertwine with the calculus of imagination, yielding conclusions that dance in the mists of uncertainty. It has been said that only the most audacious of waggoners dare venture close, for at this singular spot, the very fabric of rationality frays into nonsense, where town and scum lose their meaning, and the imaginary alignment frolics merrily with its real counterparts. Truly, Point PP3 stands as a testament to the profound absurdity that lurks beneath the veneer of wagonomics.

I cant tell if its satire or not.

hello NAS

give us your thoughts & opinions

[Gypyx]

Hey game is dead. Wonder why? Wisp is prolly town.

Gonna have to look at this post back is wisp flips town

why not dave being town too?

Possible, hence why vote change. I still like my davesaz scumread though.

Yes, but why does the dead game doesn't also indicate him as town

[Gypyx]

NAS is a somewhat sus, what little there is. Probably not worth a yeet unless we think being quiet is an actual scumtell for him.

I think being quiet is a towntell for him

[Gypyx]

alright then i'll shut up

[Gypyx]

@Willow why do you think Naerys is scum?

I explained it all already. I'm convinced one of the Mafia spoke against the Snow flashwagon at the beginning. And Naerys is the only one that acknowledged my point when I brought it up, when she tried to dismiss it.

So the "scum spoke against the flashwagon" is more of a rule of thumb if i understeand correctly?

[Gypyx]

I'm really not buying NAS, like, this play seems kinda too audacious to pull off as scum

maybe he's just burnt out but like...

Do you have any suspicions?

No

He would have to be full force anti-spewing

[Gypyx]

even in his other scum games, there was an *effort* to fit in

this disdain for dayplay is not that

[Gypyx]

Yeah that's fair

i guess i wouldn't be sad even if he flipped town

[Gypyx]

i think i'd rather let us lim the uncontroversial slots and let the vig take risks?

[Gypyx]

I'm not sure how much I like directing Vigs publicly

So true

[Gypyx]

If you don't like it then why don't you vote me? Seems like posturing.

You're saying people should vote everyone they disagree with? Seems like posturing

[Gypyx]

NaS gives 0 info going into the night for night actions regardless of his alignment.

nooooooo, my precious associatives, aaaaaaaaah, i'm melting

[Gypyx]

If you don't like it then why don't you vote me? Seems like posturing.

You're saying people should vote everyone they disagree with? Seems like posturing

Then why not vote me then?

Cause i'm posturing

[Gypyx]

Every game has a vigilante these days.

so the shift away from complex modifiers in normals really just resulted in ensuring there's a pew pew in every game?

great move

If people can't have fun by making Odd-Night Disloyal Combined Checker Fruit Vendor they will have to give people guns and enjoy the carnage

[Gypyx]

maybe he's just burnt out

This is correct. D1 threadplay is just tiring, everyone voting based on basically nothing. From D2, there is at least something to work with.

I feel like if you gave it an honest effort, without undermining your efforts at every step, you'd realize D1 can be very fun to play, and that by only valuing mechanics you're losing a big part of what makes the game interesting

But otherwise, and sorry if this seems rude but maybe this is not the place where you'll enjoy playing mafia the most

[Gypyx]

VOTE: NotAScum

this probably flips town but we kinda have to

[Gypyx]

So, hello, we have a big announcement to kind of try to shake things up (seems like everyone is struggling to do things)

we have a 5 players neighborhood consisting of Gypyx / Thomith / Snow / Davesaz / Titus

my initial flashwagon on snow came from him making a pretty lackluster entry in the hood and trying to create pressure on that

[Gypyx]

Oblivion and Gypyx need prods...don't think they've posted this day phase.

hello penguin

[Gypyx]

titus was opposed to revealing this hood but she hasn't updated us for a while and so we (me / thomith / snow kinda) decided to shake things up

[Gypyx]

Oblivion and Gypyx need prods...don't think they've posted this day phase.

hello penguin

The penguin is funny but i'm a bit afraid the penguin is scum

dave / snow is where i think i wanna look for scum in our hood if there is any (probably)

[Gypyx]

tbh i'm even thinking there could be 3 scum in the hood? like i'm getting strong town vibes from thomith but the other 3 not so much, there's also something a bit off about how they don't seem too interested in sorting themselves

[Gypyx]

tbh i'm even thinking there could be 3 scum in the hood? like i'm getting strong town vibes from thomith but the other 3 not so much, there's also something a bit off about how they don't seem too interested in sorting themselves

This neighbourhood is pre-game made, not made by a role? If so, almost certainly not 3 scum within it.

this is a complex normal, so more WIFOM than usual goes in role making, and while on a setup basis design i agree that's weird, i think we can agree that to put a 5 players hood, you need a pretty strong concept behind it, right?

[Gypyx]

and yes the hood was premade

[Gypyx]

threes probably a bit much. definitely one. potentially two.

can i at least ask you to trust my instinct and not completely shove it to the side? i'm telling you the vibes are extremely off, i could also probably make a decent case on that

[Gypyx]

i was thinking titus asking to not reveal could've been trying to bait out a PT cop, which would imo be way more detrimental to the town than shutting down potential fakeclaims, but i kinda was too busy irl to fight about it

[Gypyx]

if there are five in there at the start of d1, that's a safe assumption

It doesn't think that a role that during Night 0 decides 4 other players to join them in a hood is outside Normal realms, but it is not familiar with what this website defines as "Normal" so.

I'm saying this at the risk of sounding condescending, but I promise I'm not trying to be.
If you check the Complex Normal Wiki page, it will tell you exactly what is and isn't possible. This type of ability, I am 99.9% sure, would not qualify as normal.

Night 0 isn't a thing but you could have a night 1 simultaneous neighborizer neighborizer neighborizer neighborizer which would be a similar thing lol

[Gypyx]

threes probably a bit much. definitely one. potentially two.

can i at least ask you to trust my instinct and not completely shove it to the side? i'm telling you the vibes are extremely off, i could also probably make a decent case on that

sure. i'm not going to discount anything, but it's falls at the bottom of my likeliness pile

i think even if you don't trust it too much, it's more likely for us to have every scum in the hood than none of them

[Gypyx]

threes probably a bit much. definitely one. potentially two.

can i at least ask you to trust my instinct and not completely shove it to the side? i'm telling you the vibes are extremely off, i could also probably make a decent case on that

Why do we need to trust your instinct instead of just assuming "the vibes are off, so there's possibly 2 in the hood"?

Besides, it would behoove you as scum to say this if you were indeed the only scum in said hood. It's a great reframing device, to have us look at everyone in that hood save yourself. Dave's already on the block, Snow isn't favourable either... It isn't like this is a situation where it can just rely on "trust me, bro".

this is partially a bianco setup, and bianco is a mod that loves to put "high concept ideas", and as i said, if i wish i could make a case for it, but really a lot of this hood feels like theater

[Gypyx]

this whole normal guidelines split into three separate guidelines to reduce complexity just increases the complexity i have to go through to find out what is or isn't allowed in this game

what a w i l d decision

Meanwhile, it is just sitting here deciding whether interrogating Gypyx in French is allowed within the rules. Probably not, right?

i think it would be funny

[Gypyx]

it's not like this is cryptography or anything right?

[Gypyx]

threes probably a bit much. definitely one. potentially two.

can i at least ask you to trust my instinct and not completely shove it to the side? i'm telling you the vibes are extremely off, i could also probably make a decent case on that

Why do we need to trust your instinct instead of just assuming "the vibes are off, so there's possibly 2 in the hood"?

Besides, it would behoove you as scum to say this if you were indeed the only scum in said hood. It's a great reframing device, to have us look at everyone in that hood save yourself. Dave's already on the block, Snow isn't favourable either... It isn't like this is a situation where it can just rely on "trust me, bro".

this is partially a bianco setup, and bianco is a mod that loves to put "high concept ideas", and as i said, if i wish i could make a case for it, but really a lot of this hood feels like theater

So your argument is... in effect once again, "trust me, bro". Because... what, do you want it to go find the mod Meta of overlapping games between Alianna and Bianco? And then have it decide if indeed this is a high concept idea or not?

You're speaking in Fugazzi. It's not real it's faerie dust.

how about we just lim in the hood for now and when Titus / snow / Dave all flip scum i get the applause i deserve ok? Ok.

pedit : and no French is my native language, i'm a bit curious how much that would help you figure me out but i can play along with the exercise

[Gypyx]

I’m an American that speaks one language, have mercy please.

il n'y auras aucune pitié KayJayQueue

[Gypyx]

if this game was multiball it would have to be announced snow btw, we still can have an SK neighbor but that's it

[Gypyx]

Why do we need to trust your instinct instead of just assuming "the vibes are off, so there's possibly 2 in the hood"?

Besides, it would behoove you as scum to say this if you were indeed the only scum in said hood. It's a great reframing device, to have us look at everyone in that hood save yourself. Dave's already on the block, Snow isn't favourable either... It isn't like this is a situation where it can just rely on "trust me, bro".

this is partially a bianco setup, and bianco is a mod that loves to put "high concept ideas", and as i said, if i wish i could make a case for it, but really a lot of this hood feels like theater

So your argument is... in effect once again, "trust me, bro". Because... what, do you want it to go find the mod Meta of overlapping games between Alianna and Bianco? And then have it decide if indeed this is a high concept idea or not?

You're speaking in Fugazzi. It's not real it's faerie dust.

how about we just lim in the hood for now and when Titus / snow / Dave all flip scum i get the applause i deserve ok? Ok.

pedit : and no French is my native language, i'm a bit curious how much that would help you figure me out but i can play along with the exercise

It plays based on mental modelling, and yours feels incomplete. It wondered if using your native language would help it understand you a little better. It doesn't know if it is worth it or not.

The mind of the Gypyx is elusive and fickle, many have tried and failed to understeand me

[Gypyx]

Checking in.
That is a big hood. I don't think I've ever been in a game with one so large.

Was it any use? Like....I can't see a point of it. I am assuming there is scum in there reporting back (unless scum don't have day talk), so thebhood can't use it to stratergise or anything?

It just seems a pointless waste of mental spaceship?

Was someone really trying to keep it hidden to bait out a private thread investigator?
That seems an epically useless role That I cannotnwork out it's in game use except to confuse a townie.

PT cop also detects the scum PT

and like, seeing how the hood went (so outside of pure setup considerations) i think we have a very high scum denstiy

[Gypyx]

it's almost as if we had a PT to coordiante revealing the hood

[Gypyx]

not a fan of random nurse making this comment

but anyways, i'm voting in the hood today

VOTE: davesaz

[Gypyx]

Is the plan to hammer Dave even with a claim, and then do the same the next day? I’m just trying to figure out if this is played differently than other games that don’t have neighborhoods. Can someone be in the neighborhood with a PR or is it just neighbor and they can’t be anything else (I’m just wondering if claiming even matters, or if it’s obvious, since I don’t fully understand the schematics)

you can be a neighbor with another PR on top of it yes, and the plan is to wagon dave and see where that gets us right now

[Gypyx]

So townies aren't allowed to trust each other anymore?

[Gypyx]

I agree with thomith that snow's suspicion of me / thomith reads like trying to break a towncore creating itself, especially since his read is not based on anything more than "they townread each other"

[Gypyx]

I have a gut feeling there's one Scum among Snow/Thomith. Probably more likely among Thomith/Gypyx.

Elaborate on why you think one of us is pocketed?

[Gypyx]

Not sure how to read RN's current mindset, it's extremely reactive / defensive, but not in an overtly scum way? He feels kinda lost in a way

Oblivion, since you like crafting mind models so much, what does it have to say about Nurse

[Gypyx]

Let's give us something to talk about.

There is a neighbourhood in this game that consists of:
Myself (Thomith)
Gypyx
Snow
Titus
Dave

Even bigger reason to vote Dave.

i dont see any reason to vote dave

You mean like, dave specifically or you think he's town?

[Gypyx]

Look titus i'm sorry but also i'm suspicious of a lot of the hood members and this all lies on hood dynamics so this is kinda something we need to reveal in order to share this read

[Gypyx]

I think this is a pretty bad readslist as in very scum motivated

[Gypyx]

i think this only makes me more confident on ranger

[Gypyx]

apart from obvtown oblivion ranger has as scum pepople scum!her would need to push back on and people who it doesn't hurt to have a scumread on

the top 5 having snow / titus / naerys is extremely jarring

[Gypyx]

I think this is a pretty bad readslist as in very scum motivated

I have good reason to hold them.

do you think you'll be able to give them out soonish?

[Gypyx]

apart from obvtown oblivion ranger has as scum pepople scum!her would need to push back on and people who it doesn't hurt to have a scumread on

You seem to be treating me as if I have more information than what I have read.

You're quite aware of what I've disclosed knowledge of having read. On which pages would there be the knowledge I'd need to push back on slots? Certainly not in anything I've read.

the scum PT ? I don't distrust your medical issue stuff, but i have to say you absolutely had plenty of time to go give it a look, and the need to give an explaination to it before even starting your catchup seems to come from a place of unwarranted defensiveness?

[Gypyx]

I think this is a pretty bad readslist as in very scum motivated

Spoiler: somewhat big image

[Gypyx]

honestly if i had a vig shot that had to target the entire neighborhood i would take it in a heartbeat

[Gypyx]

that's a lot of words that i'm not sure to answer on all of them expect than by "yeah but like it doesn't mean anything / lying is a thing / i stongly think you're scum so no i don't wanna let you get comfy in thread before starting the hostilities"

and look, i'm cool with being called defensive as long as you admit what you've been saying so far is 10x more guilty of it

[Gypyx]

ugh idk

i guess on the offchance i'm wrong on something i'll hang back a bit, but i would really like you to drop some analysis ranger and less so stating broadly you think me / thomith are scum

[Gypyx]

it's especially cause i really don't get how you could legitimately end up scumreading me / thom and townreading snow / titus

[Gypyx]

apart from obvtown oblivion ranger has as scum pepople scum!her would need to push back on and people who it doesn't hurt to have a scumread on

You seem to be treating me as if I have more information than what I have read.

You're quite aware of what I've disclosed knowledge of having read. On which pages would there be the knowledge I'd need to push back on slots? Certainly not in anything I've read.

the scum PT ? I don't distrust your medical issue stuff, but i have to say you absolutely had plenty of time to go give it a look, and the need to give an explaination to it before even starting your catchup seems to come from a place of unwarranted defensiveness?

As someone who's frequently AFK due to work and IRL chaos I can sympathize with Ranger being sick and needing time. Obviously Ranger could still be Scum. Are we that close to deadline that Ranger can't be given some breathing room to feel better after this nausea event?

This is not a question of if we need time, i just hope you realize that the less time we give scum!Ranger to craft a more coherent story the more likely it is we catch her

but as she is sick keeping the pressure on her would be excessive and unhealthy so i'll just wait and see

[Gypyx]

it's especially cause i really don't get how you could legitimately end up scumreading me / thom and townreading snow / titus

The more that happens the more I think you actually might be right about 3 scum in the hood..

Now that you have seen the truth you may begin opening your third eye my dear apprentice

[Gypyx]

The way it's been playing seems extremely pure, and i also feel like it probably would've made more of an effort to avoid this disconnect from the remainder of the thread, or like, maybe it wouldn't even happen if it were scum

[Gypyx]

I'm just going to say right now I hate "towncores/townblocks" in general. Too easy to shield experienced Scum.

unless there is a mechanical reason for it, then this

Why?

Could you also explain how 2 people who strongly town read each other is "easy for scum to hide behind"?

because one may not be town and have bamboozled the other. i think it is in the interest of scum to form "town blocks" and cruise through the game

Look this is sounding a bit rude but please take it as me asking you to reflect on that

do you have more reasons to think that than just saying "nuh uh"?

I do think this is somewhat towny from gera as scum would obviously try to be more convincing when trying to break a town/town pair, or if one of us is scum he absolutely would let it slide, this would especially be a weird angle for a bus considering we're solving in the hood today, so it's better to let things stay on their way towards ranger

[Gypyx]

the thought of the hood having 3 scum came at me around the start of day 2

[Gypyx]

oh also another reason i think Snow / Titus / Ranger are scum together

postcounts in the hood :
Thomith : 43
Gypyx : 32
Snow : 14
Titus : 13
Davesaz : 9
Ranger : 7

[Gypyx]

i guess you could explain that by them also being less active overall, but i still find the divide noteworthy

[Gypyx]

Well, i guess we'll see about titus when we get to her but also that doesn't sound too bad of an outcome

[Gypyx]

i dont think i am on board with you Gypyx in you just lining up a bunch of Hood members and running through them. i don't think that is optimal strategy for the rest of us to trust you so much

i think you're misundersteanding me, i'm not saying that we run through snow / ranger / titus without discussion, this is more of me preassuming that they'll flip scum and how to work on that

you are obviously not forced to trust me but i hope you'll come around to it eventually since that's a read i'm pretty confident in

[Gypyx]

I was also extremely busy so i hope you forgive me for coasting by a lim that i viewed as decent at least

my original 2 scum in the hood read was more of a setup spec thing that i wasn't willing to act on

[Gypyx]

i would love to get more input from people outside of the hood

[Gypyx]

Day 1 i was more interested in snow / willow and by the time dave!push became a thing real life issues started to get me too busy to take a proper look at it

[Gypyx]

your read list barely changes. you not got tunneled on gypyx?

Being tunneled is an accusation often levied against me despite my very philosophy embodying the opposite. Generally, I hold a skeptical eye towards those doing so, as their callout usually carries an agenda; "X is tunneled" is oft synonymous with "X's reads are not to be trusted", and thus 'tunneled' is a charged term inherently carrying a negative connotation that detracts from the value of my contributions.

In this case, I've good reasons from the neighborhood to hold suspicion of Gypyx and Thomith, yet nothing is set in stone. I've already experienced doubts after engaging with Gypyx, as Gypyx's responses to me felt plausibly town. My reads are fluid and subject to change at a moment's notice. Notably, I've gained greater suspicion of you from this comment.

elaborate on how i'm plausibly town please

[Gypyx]

Why would me/gypyx being scum make Titus town by default?

I don’t believe a three scum neighborhood would pass review. It’d violate the spirit, despite following the letter.

a 3 scum hood absolutely pales in comparaison to some of the stuff that bianco has gotten through review

[Gypyx]

You’re entitled to your opinion; I maintain mine.

large normal 177 : 9P hood, 3 mafias

large normal 185 : 9P hood, 3 Blue Mafias 2 Red Mafia

large normal 234 : 5P hood, 2 mafias

i'll admit, it's more rare than i though, but 185 sets a precedent for hoods with a scum majority, there also are plenty of minis with 1:2 hoods where scum is the 2, so i am confident this can get extrapolated that a 2:3 would pass

[Gypyx]

why are you voting together with Ranger then titus

[Gypyx]

I felt somewhat better about Ranger, but I did not like and understand her vote into Naerys.
Titus is added to my suspects list for her vote into Naerys, while she thinks that I am scum. I don't think that Naerys and myself can be fellow scums.
So, everyone from the hood are my suspects now. I currently think that the worst is
VOTE: Thomith

Why am I the worst?

Please explain why not. If you are active, but do not look for scums? If you TR Gypyx and say that she actively solves the game (she does not)? if you and Gypyx are in virtually all wagons? If you do not explain why Jackson (killed BTW) is wrong when he said there is PR hunt here (to say "there isn't" is not enough)?

Gypyx is no. 2.

Titus and Ranger - what puzzles me is that they suspected people in the hood, but voted outside. So they are close.

Unless you are litterally in a 1:4 hood you do realize you're probably wrong on some people then right?

[Gypyx]

There are so many inactives/not voting that I'm worried.

It’s almost like the scum have no reason to interrupt the town in the middle of them making a mistake.

Last time i checked stalled gamestate means town is on the right track and scum don't wanna cooperate

messing with you a bit of course but broad gamestate analyses like that can kinda be twisted to say anything

[Gypyx]

I low key kind of want to pivot to Snow..

Aye to that

[Gypyx]

Last time i checked stalled gamestate means town is on the right track and scum don't wanna cooperate

it can also mean town is on the wrong track and scum have no incentive to derail

Yeah exactly like, my point is that it doesn't mean anything on it's own

agreed with penguin too, this lack of passion is extremely sad to bear witness to

[Gypyx]

I would very much appreciate for the hood to be solved today, and even if we were solving outside of it, Naerys is pretty obviously flailing town

[Gypyx]

let's stay on ranger until it's clear it's not doable

[Gypyx]

i think dividing the pressure from people willing to vote in ranger / snow isn't a good move

like, in a vaccum yeah i'd probably rather wagon snow, but marginally, and Naerys risks taking the lim if we do it like that so close to the deadline

oh wait nvm we have 3 days and a half, need to think about it

[Gypyx]

I do agree scum would have to worry about looking uncoordinated, at least somewhat

[Gypyx]

I would very much appreciate for the hood to be solved today, and even if we were solving outside of it, Naerys is pretty obviously flailing town

I personally prefer to eliminate scum over trying to arbitrarily force a solve in a group which may as well be RNG'd, and disagree with your take.

what i mean is that the dynamics in the hood point at there being scum imo

[Gypyx]

maybe i'm wrong on the 2:3 theory but we at least have 3:2

[Gypyx]

yes

[Gypyx]

VOTE: snow

[Gypyx]

I am once again asking you to vote inside the hood

[Gypyx]

I am once again asking you to vote inside the hood

What's the main reason for it? The assumption that there must be at least one Scum in the Hood? Chance are high there's probably 1 in there, but in the past as a mod I made an all-Town NH once. There's 5 in there right? If a Neighbor gets plugged and they're Town do we just keep shooting the fish in that barrel until Scum gets hit?

It is not an assumption but rather a certainety when considering hood dynamics and stuff

[Gypyx]

...Gypyx, your list?

Also, what conversations are going on in there?

sorry the no sponsor thing came back

Gypyx
Thomith
/////
Titus
Ranger
Snow

[Gypyx]

as for the conversation it's basically died off after the reveal since Me / Thom were the biggest conversation drivers and there's kind of a lack of trust going on lol

[Gypyx]

*looks at watch*

*wondering where everyone went*

*thinking what Gypyx's and/or Thomith's teammates are telling them to say*

Yes obviously we are absolutely coordinating every minute thing that's being said in our scum PT, down to the single post

[Gypyx]

as for the conversation it's basically died off after the reveal since Me / Thom were the biggest conversation drivers and there's kind of a lack of trust going on lol

Yeah I van understand a lack of trust in Mafia.

But there doesn't seem to be a lack of trust between you and Thomith.

I just find that interesting.

Tell me why that is.

When i find people largely town i'm not interested in holding back trust

obviously if it gets down to a tighter spot i could reevaluate but not right now

[Gypyx]

Yes but it's highly, HIGHLY, HIIIIIIIIIGHLY unrealistic of you to base your expectations around that

[Gypyx]

Yes but it's highly, HIGHLY, HIIIIIIIIIGHLY unrealistic of you to base your expectations around that

Is that my expectation?

...or are you just reacting a tad bit defensively?

What i'm saying is that maybe it's possible but if you don't have anything that points to that then holy shit you're making the most unlikely possibilities first

[Gypyx]

Yes but it's highly, HIGHLY, HIIIIIIIIIGHLY unrealistic of you to base your expectations around that

Is that my expectation?

...or are you just reacting a tad bit defensively?

What i'm saying is that maybe it's possible but if you don't have anything that points to that then holy shit you're making the most unlikely possibilities first

...

Interesting.

So, why exactly are you not voting Thomith?

Is he completely off the table for you today?

it would take some pretty scummy behaviour from thom to change that, if you think you've seen that then by all means explain yourself

[Gypyx]

I think you're pretty blatantly town

what i'm asking is what exactly warrants this level of extended scrutiny

[Gypyx]

Thom nurse as obvtown as it gets, pls trust me on that one

[Gypyx]

If you're trying to placate me by telling me what I already know I will get vicious.

oh yes please

[Gypyx]

Thom nurse as obvtown as it gets, pls trust me on that one

Also when you turn from this in the future I'll be waiting for you.

My love for you is unending and while you may not trust me, in due time you will come to my side (i am crumbing cult leader)

[Gypyx]

gera is also town, not obvtown but still i'd be surprised if he flips scum

[Gypyx]

It feels like a.lot of bad faith voting going on at the moment.

I just can't work out who

This has an air of "don't look at me I'm Towning," and it irks my gut.

Maybe he's just towning also, like that's a thing

hang on i'll do a multiquote

[Gypyx]

Hey, Gypyx, why do you think Jackson was killed?

PR hunting / maintaining the current gamestate

[Gypyx]

VOTE: Hu Tao

That seems from out of nowhere. I checked your history and couldn't see where it came from?

Explain?

i dont think i am on board with you Gypyx in you just lining up a bunch of Hood members and running through them. i don't think that is optimal strategy for the rest of us to trust you so much

i think you're misundersteanding me, i'm not saying that we run through snow / ranger / titus without discussion, this is more of me preassuming that they'll flip scum and how to work on that

you are obviously not forced to trust me but i hope you'll come around to it eventually since that's a read i'm pretty confident in

oh, it very much read like that was what you wanted to happen and we should all just go along with it.

i was not liking that at all.

This is from a knowing i'm town PoV but as scum gera rarely thinks of this when listening to a townie imo

I'm just going to say right now I hate "towncores/townblocks" in general. Too easy to shield experienced Scum.

unless there is a mechanical reason for it, then this

Scum!gera always makes this kind of speculation in the scum PT imo

I'm just going to say right now I hate "towncores/townblocks" in general. Too easy to shield experienced Scum.

unless there is a mechanical reason for it, then this

Why?

Could you also explain how 2 people who strongly town read each other is "easy for scum to hide behind"?

because one may not be town and have bamboozled the other. i think it is in the interest of scum to form "town blocks" and cruise through the game

Gypyx has been so obviously been trying to solve the game here and in the hood, that I doubt I'm wrong on this, but I see your point.

if you can see someone else's point then i think i've made it well enough

Towny pride

[Gypyx]

Hey, Gypyx, why do you think Jackson was killed?

PR hunting / maintaining the current gamestate

...

...you think Scum killed JV for PR hunting?

I absolutely didn't read Jackson's ISO but like, i was thinking "huh weird kill, probably hunting PR"

i recall jackson being more laid back than usual D1, that's maybe why

[Gypyx]

Oh, hey, did you two ever respond to my questions on why you trust each other so much and apparently won't vote each other?

look if you're not seeing it right now you aren't gonna be seeing it after i explain it to you

[Gypyx]

Hey, Gypyx, why do you think Jackson was killed?

PR hunting / maintaining the current gamestate

...

...you think Scum killed JV for PR hunting?

I absolutely didn't read Jackson's ISO but like, i was thinking "huh weird kill, probably hunting PR"

i recall jackson being more laid back than usual D1, that's maybe why

...

OK but why is that a reason for Scum to NK JV?

Because it could indicate him trying to not draw attention

[Gypyx]

Hello i'm john town cop, i kinda don't wanna get nightkilled

let's not look threatening to scum

[Gypyx]

Hello i'm john town cop, i kinda don't wanna get nightkilled

let's not look threatening to scum

No no no, I have questions.

You implied Scum shot JV because they were PR hunting. Why would Scum do that? Wouldn't they want a Townie to be Scumhunting? And then you mentioned something about JV trying not to be noticed, while PR hunting...?

I need you to clarify, please.

the scum were PR hunting by killing jackson

[Gypyx]

Ranger's claim is so many levels of BS.

Does no one except it remember when Ranger bragged about how surprised it woupd be about her claim and then claimed the least surprising most obvious bait claim in the world that didn't match that tone at all?

What is going to happen is that Ranger will live today if you let her, live tomorrow on promise of shooting someone but you will never get that shot. Either they will claim to be roleblocked or shoot a townie and then if you go "okay time to sort ranger" it is MELO and you won't have space to do it.

Now is the time to murder this suspicious player with a suspicious claim. Town does not need a N3 Vig or a N4 Jailkeeper, and more likely it is a scum fake claim.

We should not be running up other players to claim to feed the scum more info on our roles.

Murder Ranger with it, they will flip scum.

i absolutely murder ranger if she claimes RBed tommorow

but there is value in letting things play out

actually hmmm, scum vig isn't even out of the picture lol, this is a complex

[Gypyx]

yeah my bad i misspoke

[Gypyx]

Night 3 vig Night 4 jailkeeper

[Gypyx]

oh no you've figured me out

[Gypyx]

Spoiler:

I feel like I’m defending myself for trying to play the game.

What a coincidence, so am I!

My argument in part is that the wagon on me, with no counterwagon, is

deliberately designed to prevent players from playing the game

.

It warps the game around me and makes the game entirely about me.

I didn’t sign up for that, nor did I cause it. My efforts have consistently been to

dissuade

that gamestate, as there’s never anything good to come from focusing entirely on one player.

My question to you is

why have my efforts failed?

Why is the game entirely still about me?

I certainly would prefer it otherwise!

So why do I remain the sole focus of players

despite

my efforts?

It’s almost like me remaining the focus is beneficial to scum.

I know which alignment that implies for me.

here is 1156 for reference

[Gypyx]

Yes lets vote claimed pr no matter that this slot will sort itself in a night or two
Awesome logic,my faith in this town goes under the zero

scum vig exists, this solves kinda nothing

[Gypyx]

Yes lets vote claimed pr no matter that this slot will sort itself in a night or two
Awesome logic,my faith in this town goes under the zero

scum vig exists, this solves kinda nothing

So how does that work?

If a Scum Vig exists it's still only one Factional kill, right?

Yes, still one factional kill, but then the vig can make another seperate kill.

Well that's some BS. Doesn't sound Normal to me—that must've been a recent change.

it happened with the normal queue restructuration

scum vig also fits very well with a 12vs3 factions ratio if that's what we're against, it allows the scumteam to do some catching up

bianco has also already done a setup with a mafia vig, that's bonus points for it

[Gypyx]

VOTE: gypyx
I've disliked them for long enough and they just are rubbing me up the wrong way

i'm abravise cause i'm confident i'm right

[Gypyx]

I think it's too early to start shooting in the hood because hood.

Now if, say, two Townies die in the hood, 3 left, and it's mid-game OK, sure, maybe it's a better time to start hunting there.

once again i'm asking to shoot in the hood cause i'm confident their behaviour both in and out of hood indicates that they are scum together

[Gypyx]

if you can't figure out "they" from what i've been arguing about this whole day then honestly what are you doing

[Gypyx]

Of course i'm defensive cause i've got it fucking figured out and like people won't listen

[Gypyx]

that's kind of a me thing i'll be real

like, when i know stuff that's correct sometimes i can really *feel* it

[Gypyx]

Basically snow / titus / davesaz, even if forgiving their inactivity, were all lacking proactivity, and almost never talked to each other? Like, titus sent a few conversations, but that was basically 5 posts in total

[Gypyx]

that's the kind of nervousness i associate with having to keep up the facade in front of 2 townies (aka : you can't even just hold on for 1 day and nightkill them)

[Gypyx]

I think gypyx is the most town of any of them. I'm kinda suspicious of people saying we HAVE to vote in the hood today

we HAVE to vote in the hood today

[Gypyx]

i'm gonna annoy you into siding with me Gera

[Gypyx]

nuh uh

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... lex_Normal

[Gypyx]

strangely enough Scum vengeful isn't allowed lol

[Gypyx]

yeah

[Gypyx]

your push of Snow / dave absolutely doesn't warrant ruling out the fact that it could be a scum strategy to create distance

[Gypyx]

yeah

I have been picking between my SRs to vote and you think I am scum for not talking to them when I was IRL slow?

Sorry i don't get what you're trying to say here

[Gypyx]

your push of Snow / dave absolutely doesn't warrant ruling out the fact that it could be a scum strategy to create distance

*pats you* If you think that this is how I treat my partners, you haven't dealt with scum me.

Yeah sorry but i'm really not receptive to this kind of arguments right now

[Gypyx]

Am I just being paranoid that I feel like the last couple pages has been a purposeful distraction? I just don’t know who is actually the guilty party, I can’t tell which posts/feelings are genuine and which might not be. I have felt so disconnected from the game a lot of the time. I think the D1 disconnection can be explained by a hidden neighborhood which seemed to produce a less active town. But D2 has just felt so abrasive and aggressive from so many people, I feel like I’m getting lost in the shuffle. I don’t even know if I believe it’s best to vote in the hood or not! Like, I don’t know what the right choice is here. And I want to go to certain people I’m familiar with but I don’t have crazy strong townreads to know if I’ll get genuine advice or not.

Why am I finding this game in particular so difficult? Is it the size? Are large games much harder than mini/micros? I can’t articulate what I’m feeling very well right now. Sorry for rambling. And the tinfoil hat.

it's okay Kay we know you are town you don't need to shove it in our face

[Gypyx]

that was just a jokey way of saying that it's a towny post girl, not me criticizing you

Well, maybe to get you started somewhere, what's your opinion on Naerys? I feel like it's a pretty polarizing slot

[Gypyx]

I should do a readwall but bleh allergies

allergies to readwalls, a curse upon mafia players

[Gypyx]

VOTE: Ranger

HAMMMERTIME

[Gypyx]

now's the time to see the flip that'll determine my ego for the remainder of this game

[Gypyx]

sounds in character for the eye pfp person

[Gypyx]

VOTE: snow

still want this gone

Naerys is town and for those of you pushing scum you kinda need to recalibrate your scum compass

if snow flips town i swear i'll leave the hood stuff alone for a bit and try to explore more options

[Gypyx]

and for those of you pushing her*

[Gypyx]

we also have no PRs flipped and for all we know, if this game is 12:3 our power level is very low

against massclaiming for today

[Gypyx]

Do not question my methods penguin of power

[Gypyx]

To elaborate a bit more

this is a bit of preflipping but in a scum!snow world naerys always busses

especially given HOW she went about refusing to lim the claim, scum trying to let a partner go rarely does the whole "i have no faith in this town" schtick

the overall self righteousness is town indicative

sussing me is a plan that's gonna be tough to make work as scum and she probably wouldn't have tried it straight up

the self vote

i have seen it in the stars

etc..

[Gypyx]

Have players casually forgotten that Naerys voted themselves because they did not want to read Ranger's posting anymore, only to them be ignored as a wagon choice by Ranger... And then TRY TO SAVE RANGER AT END OF DAY?

It cannot see past that dissonance. It views either the emotional reaction Naerys had to be faked or the emotional reaction was real but Naerys still tried to save scum anyway.

In either case, it fits Ranger scum partner.

Claiming a self-confirmable role makes town player's brains go monke mode

[Gypyx]

Yeah, that is the PoE for it.

KayJay, Thomith, Gerantim, Naerys.

It thinks kill Naerys and Thomith and you probably win, you always find at least one more scum. If it isn't over... Kill between the others.

Oblivion i'm sorry but your PoE stinks hard

Gera / Naerys / Thom are hard cleared off of their play

KJQ *could* be scum but i'm finding it as likely as you being scum, ie : not that much

[Gypyx]

Legacy reads except i'm still alive so let's post them regardless :
Gera / Thom / Nurse / Oblivion hard town
Naerys / KJQ not as hard but still pretty hard town

Burn snow with fire
Would really like Titus to be dead before ELo

[Gypyx]

VOTE: snow

still want this gone

Naerys is town and for those of you pushing scum you kinda need to recalibrate your scum compass

if snow flips town i swear i'll leave the hood stuff alone for a bit and try to explore more options

...

...

Hm...

^^

live minecraft villager reaction

[Gypyx]

Also like

to add onto that massclaim aversion, scum are very obviously afraid of who could be a PR

let's not make their work easier

[Gypyx]

cause like, correct me if i'm wrong but Hu wasn't killed for being obvtown / her opinions lol

[Gypyx]

Also like

to add onto that massclaim aversion, scum are very obviously afraid of who could be a PR

let's not make their work easier

My thinking was like the last game I played, scum got trapped by the mass claim, their options got narrowed down and the game ended quickly.

I kinda doubt this the game where that happens

it would also probably be more appropriate to do it Day 4 as like, we are a day late when compared to the mini you're mentionning

[Gypyx]

who would even claim N2 informed lmaoooooo

[Gypyx]

holy shit i'm experienced

[Gypyx]

Haters hate to see a woman girlbossing her way to winning a game of mafia

[Gypyx]

I mean, hell let's do it like that, who's down to elect me as the supreme leader of this town

[Gypyx]

If y'all start massclaim while i'm sleeping i will be very angry

[Gypyx]

we are 11 alive with 1 scum dead

the pressure is absolutely not on town to massclaim

[Gypyx]

we are 11 alive with 1 scum dead

the pressure is absolutely not on town to massclaim

It puts pressure on scum. Two nights of results are sufficient. Forcing scum to kill power roles outside of obv towns is VALUABLE.

We aren't forcing them to do shit lol

like, you do realize scum will kill PRs > Obvtown only if the PRs pose sufficient threat to them?

to reuse MTG lingo, you are currently wanting to put them through a bully effect, except the thing with that is that they get to choose what's the most benefitial to them

[Gypyx]

It cannot imagine a role in this game that benefits from a third night at this point. It values the knowledge for a solve more. Much more.

acting as if a role with relevant results with immediatly explode if they spend another night without claiming

[Gypyx]

look, oblivion, like :

We are in a 12:3 setup, our current power is never going to be sufficient to win us the game, we need to stay hidden

We are in a 11:4 setup, there is largely enough power to counterbalance the hypothetical worst case scenario of losing part of our power to a nightkill tonight

[Gypyx]

well - the PRs are uniquely situated to make that assessment themselves and out if they determine it's worthwhile.

amen to that

[Gypyx]

Least of all a player who is inside the scum Poe who yesterday heard N3 Vig N4 Jailkeeper and said "oh thats provable and solvable! Vote Snow/Hu Tao!" and even when explained why it wasn't kind of went "teehee oopsie" and just kept on trucking.

Is that about me?

[Gypyx]

Let it reiterate its frustration.

It is very excited to be ignored today, shot tonight and ignored tomorrow.

It wants info to make a solve NOW while it is ALIVE. it has exactly 0 faith in a town that nearly let Ranger live yesterday.

Hey, here's a secret, we can win the game without you alive

i'm also ignoring your input cause i'm really landing on a completely opposite PoE from yours

[Gypyx]

Who else would it be?

Well like, it's gonna have to remind me where i declared intention to kill Hu lol

and yes, while i'll admit i've had a moment of reconsideration when hearing the claim, i was the driving force behind me / thomith placing in the last 2 votes, Thom / titus / snow can vouch for it

[Gypyx]

tl;dr : people are allowed to not always be 100% right on stuff and i would really like you to come at me with a less hostile stance tommorow

[Gypyx]

fleeting thought that gypyx and oblivion are performative scum and i chuckled for a minute

This is no longer scum theater, we have ascended to scum action blockbuster

[Gypyx]

We assume there's at least 4, period.

Wait can there be 5? That’s insane if a possibility.

Always hope for the best, prepare for the worst. If there's only 4 instead of 5, great.

nurse you need to take your pills