Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[camn]

good morning.
I just bought the new Mos Def record. So far, its ok.

Vote: VP BALTHAR

Not a random vote.

[camn]

Look for who would kill the cow.

^^this.

I don't think Hascow was killed for lobotomy. . . no offense intended, but there are some pretty heavy hitters on the playerlist.
Unless they are ALL scum, I think hascow was picked for a different reason.

VP? what is your opinion of Hascow as a player?

[camn]

I played a game with GIEFF once.
We were scum together.

He was brilliant as scum.

We should probably lynch him before endgame... regardless of anything that may happen between then and now.

(how is THAT for saying something scummy?!!?)

[camn]

in fact...

unvote
Vote :GIEFF

Look at me .. 3rd vote on the wagon!
oops.. nope. 2nd vote. Darn.

[camn]

@camn, why ask specificly VP's opinion about hascow, earlier?

When I saw Hascow dead, I wondered about it.
I looked at his recent games. Especially an ongoing one. That is all I should say about that.

VP I have played with a couple times, and I respect him.
I think that he is the kind of player that, AS SCUM, given a night 0, he would choose to eliminate someone that he

thought

might be a detriment to the gameplay as a whole. Like a lurker, or someone who might replace out... or someone he thought was "mediocre".
He has that kind of integrity.

Now... I have unvoted him, but I still suspect him. His response is simply filed away in the camn-memory-system for later.
i agree we can't get too crazy on outguessing the scum.. especially N0 scumkills..... so I table VP for now.

[camn]

Beats a Random vote, no?

And yes, I think those 3 conditions are not unreasonable... but replace "pro-town" with "pro-fun-game".

[camn]

You must rate his play pretty highly if you think that anyone that knew him would have killed him instantly.

Not necessarily. It could be a revenge kill. It could be someone that HASCOW is particularly good at reading....

It could be a lot of things.

[camn]

Your statement was logically flawed.

And yes, VP fits my theory on the nightkill.
But I don't think it is enough for a lynch.

Wheras policy-lynching GIEFF for being too awesome... that might be doable...

[camn]

Haha, you're including urself as a heavy hitter, amirite? xD

Of course not!
>

I

< am a soft touch.
But I certainly put YOU in that category!

Wheras policy-lynching GIEFF for being too awesome... that might be doable...

*Stare*

Vote Mastin

What does staring at me have to do with voting Mastin ??

Wheras policy-lynching GIEFF for being too awesome... that might be doable...

Buddying is buddying, even if you try to hide it by also throwing in a toothless vote.

We will see how toothless it is when you hang, old friend..

[camn]

@Camn: I like you... and I DONT like you at the same time... How's that possible? Acting crazy helps your meta? Try to help town...

I had a problem with getting nightkilled right away all the time.
It was less fun for me.
But don't worry.. I will grow on you!

ALTHOUGH...I thought I had been particularly NOT crazy so far this game... what you talking aboot?

PLUS..
I AM THE ONE who killed the RVS.
Just want the credit.

[camn]

I vote for who I think is Scum. That's it, that's all.
If you have any doubts about my ability to read with my gut, ask GIEFF.

You'll never get scum lynched that way.
You have to convince the rest of us!

[camn]

This shoots down camn's "integrity" theory, which seemed awfully contrived.

Camn, do you still want to leave the door open for a return to VP Baltar for these reasons, or will you take a firmer stand?

I have been looking forward to playing with you again! Now I remember why.

1) that does NOT shoot down my theory... until I examine the playerlist of said game. If there is no one VP thinks hurts the game on it.. then It still stands!

but

2) I will not pursue VP on those grounds again. It was a good enough theory for a FIRST POST non-random vote.. but not good enough for much else.

UNVOTE

I follow this alex-bm battle with interest.

[camn]

A) I told you why I wont use it. It is weaksauce.

B) I >AM < here to make friends. Check my meta if you want to build a case on those grounds.

[camn]

No, I wouldn't.
YOU sir, are starting to reek of selective-reading here.

First off.. in Mini 803, everyone there actually WERE my buddies! So I buddy them all!

Our game (Open 188) .. that was brilliant, wasn't it! When I flipped, nobody suspected you!
You were brilliant that game. there is no doubting it.

Now, my town games......
Let me point out whom I buddied with in each game.. and PLEASE explain to me why you are only noticing in my scum games?


Saving Nasubi -Everyone..

DGB, I am going to allow you a LITTLE bit of soft-claiming... but that is because I like you.

YOu know I will lynch you, right Zwet? I like you, but that doesn't mean you need to live.

Tenchi.. I am going to do my best to run you up to a lynch.....
PS.. I like your picture.

And thats only, like 2/3 of the way through!

Open 122 -Spyrex.. mostly

Anyway, I hope Spyrex gets into this game more. I was thinking about him last night, that I have enjoyed playing with him in the past.

SpyreX - Town who I love.

VP Balthar comes out like a good replacement. I think town. If he is scum, we will see a scum-win, I think.

Mini 771- Incog, though I was only alive one day! Plus I buddied the SK that killed me

My loyalty remains with Incog.

You are my favorite again.
Xylthixlm is out.

Incog was right... I was annoyed. (That why I like him.. he understands me!)

Unvote : Green Crayons

You rule.

Medeival mafia - you already pointed some out. here they are for everyone else....

God you are the greatest replacement ever. This IS a total cluster.

You are my favorite player ever, as of now.


Sorry, Incog.

And trust me.. I practically MAKE OUT with Tarlahindur by the end of that game.

And to add some..
In Mini 799 (AS TOWN) -
Alexhans will attest.. I buddy VP a lot.

more camn and Baltar irrelevant chatter. They should get married...

awww, will you pick out my dress? Smile

Sure... But only if I get an invitation. Razz

So there. I easily found great examples of me buddying in a ton of my TOWN games..

Questions: why did you ignore these examples?
Is that not the definition of a crap-case?
Did you even read the games?

Especially knowing most people will take your word for it, and not actually hunt down the meta themselves.... I could see this working! You just got served, cuz I actually DO love everyone!

(except the people on my grudgekill list.)

Hmm.
re-

Vote : Gieff

For trying to shove a crapcase down my throat just cuz I like to be nice.
And stop calling me 'abrasive'!
I am sweet as a summer day!

[camn]

oops.. Sorry.. FTR, in Medieval...KORE was the best replacement ever.. XLY was my new favorite.

(Though right now I have a girl-crush on OJANEN.)

[camn]

I do not think my "case" (I wouldn't even call it that) is strong, and I am not shoving it down your throat.

Not only is it not strong, it is totally incorrect! It isn't factual in any way. and your meta-investigation failed!

Admit it!

Say, "camn is wonderful!! A game without her is a step toward an empty abyss."

[camn]

@ alex..
a) I was too hungover to lurkerwagon. But I will get around to it.
b) I get emotional. Defensive is not a scumtell. Crapcases, however, ARE.
c) I think I am STILL hung over. god.

[camn]

whats your question, exactly?
Short sentences, pls.. I am still hung over.

[camn]

PS, GIEFF..... you have already totally proven that you don't really understand how to use Meta.... so any meta arguments you might bring are pretty worthless, IMO.

[camn]

So.. Your question is about a bridge?

[camn]

You have no idea what town-camn would do.
You have proven this.

Everything you have written is insane speculation... you need to be more clear.

Are you asking where I was this weekend?

[camn]

Oh wait...
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 20#1760320

YOU KNOW where I was this weekend!!

So seriously.. you're argument that I am "not pursuing it very actively" contradicts what you KNOW about me schedule this last weekend.

Hmm.
Another crap-case.

So that is 2 crapcases in less than a week. Do you have more?

[camn]

Your crap-cases are scummy.
They are crap because they are not true.
Me calling them crapcases simultaneously defends myself against them, and points out your scumminess to everyone else.

I never ignored you.
I never appeased you.
I am NOT abrasive.

If you have any sane, rational QUESTIONS, please ask them.
Your speculation is based on nothing.
You failed at building a meta-case on me.
Your "ignoring" argument is based on lies.
Your "buddying up" argument was based on lies.
your "appeasement" argument is based on lies.

When I totally refuted and destroyed your case (in 149), I asked YOU some questions.. which you have totally ignored.

Do you care to answer them now?

FURTHERMORE, your logic is totally flawed.
Above, you say:

I knew you spent a lot of time on the 11th making 4 posts, one of which was an in-depth investigation of your own meta - you are willing to spend all that effort to defend yourself, yet hardly any effort at all to follow up on your claim that you find me scummy.

149 is THE VERY POST where I voted you based on your crap-case.
Are you saying that I should have "followed up" on my accusations IN THE SAME POST that I MADE the accusations?
That is nonsense.
Your entire line of thought is nonsense.... in 158 I DID follow up! Then I went out to the bar .

Is this a 'genuine' enough response?

[camn]

Why did you react so strongly to my investigation into your meta?
Why did you ignore me when I asked this question, instead trying to turn it into a joke?

Well, I will try and explain it to you.. even though I already did.

I was not reacting particularly strongly, in my opinion. Thus your comment that PRESUMED that I was "reacting strongly" was a misrepresentation at best, and a lie at worst... and EITHER WAY I interpreted it (and still do) as you trying to turn the discussion away from your INCREDIBLE failure at reading. It was not germane to the discussion, and did not deserve anything but my scorn and disdain.

RE: Question #2....It is the same thing.
I made no Joke. You attest I made a joke.. but I see no smiley face. Your assumption is wrong. Probably it is just a lie. Thus, again, you are simply trying to change the subject, and it doesn't deserve anything but my scorn and disdain.

----------------------------

Are you saying that I should have "followed up" on my accusations IN THE SAME POST that I MADE the accusations?
That is nonsense.

I am not saying you should have done it in the same post, although that would have been fine.

How do you follow up on something in the same post that you first post it in? You realize that doesn't even make sense, right?

Actually nevermind. Don't answer that.
I am tabling this discussion for 72 hours.
I am not interested in your vortex of poor logic, and it is disturbing my feng-shui.

Since I value my feng shui, I will not be fielding your questions until I mellow out.

[camn]

@camn-since you've been reading along with interest in the alex/BM faceoff, I would like to hear some of your opinions regarding it. Who do you think looks scummier coming out of it?

BM.

[camn]

He kept saying "bro".
He, I think, is/was being intentionally argumentative regarding NICKNAMES, of all things.

Understand, though.. I am not sure he is actually SCUMMY.. just scummiER than alex. Right now I am inclined to think town vs. town on them.

[camn]

I support ANY lurkerlynch.

[camn]

I only see 6......

[camn]

Doh!

This site should use GMT.

[camn]

Cephrir and Mastin?

Oh, and I promise not to kill you this game, ok!?
I wanna be frenz againz!

[camn]

Stupid page break.. that was @KMD.

[camn]

Neither of those things are true.. that's why I can promise!

[camn]

+1 claim now gogogo.

[camn]

Claim now:

1) vanilla
2) scum
3) other.. I can't claim now.

[camn]

grr simulpost.

[camn]

I agree with SensFan so much it hurts me.

[camn]

That these Line by Line attack/rebuttal cases based on early Day 1 "slips" are not helpful in catching scum now, and not helpful looking back either.

I, for one, can't remember anyone EVER catching scum that way on day 1. .. though I admit it has maybe happened.

But I also admit, I am a very poor Day-1 player. My strength is endgame.

[camn]

If everyone played like you this would not be a game..

That cuts both ways, though. If all 16 of us adressed every line of every post.. this would ALSO not be a game.

But I also admit, I am a very poor Day-1 player. My strength is endgame.

I didn't think you were a poor Day-1 player in the game I played with you or your games that I read. Are you attempting to write off your lack of scumhunting to an early-game weakness?

Who do you think is scum, and why?

Didn't I replace into that game? And besides.. we were SCUM that game.. Day 1 for scum is a lot easier, I think.
And re: your reading... well.. I can't give that much weight

Anyway, I AM writing off my lack of scumhunting to early-game weakness. I don't know who the scum are. I don't put much credence in RVS 'scumslips'.
The only time I can remember ever getting scum Day 1 is on lurkerlynches... This is my least favorite part of every game.

[camn]

UNVOTE
vote: Benmage

[camn]

What WERE you thinking?

[camn]

Alex..

Simply from a theoretical perspective.. do you think it is good to lay out why people strike you as TOWN?

Also, @KMD... I don't have very good Day1 strategy, as I have mentioned... and I am not against scumhunting. I just am not sure that verbose, line-by-line arguments are a useful way to do it.

Me, I use day1 to gather info.. and sometimes I get sucked into arguments... but I try not to.
You may have caught scum that way.. but I never have.

Now, I am not arguing NO ONE should do it.. but I probably won't. And to the original point of that idea.. I won't think SENSFAN is scummy for thinking the same thing.

[camn]

So that is a yes? (I am slow sometimes..)

[camn]

GEIFF.. are you implying a 5-person scumteam?

[camn]

Of course I am not implying a 5-person scum-team, camn. I am asking why 5 different people would do that, as I don't know, and I don't think it is a coincidence. And it is actually 6 people, not five - I left out kmd.

If I were to answer my own question, as you suggested, it would be that I suspect that there are two scum among those 6 people, especially considering how mutually supportive camn, Sens, and BM have been.

I don't think that that is a logical conclusion.
Given that you accept that all 6 people are not scum together.... the only logical conclusion is that YOU are doing something that elicits this response, right? (barring coincidence....)

How would 2 scum in the group produce the effects you have observed?

[camn]

I support ANY lurkerlynch.

YET. Unlike you, you never jumped on lurkers like broomhead and don't vote for them now.

True

Also.. can we get some logic going in this game, please?

Are you two saying that it would make sense for ME AS SCUM to AVIOD voting lurkers?
Really?
Cuz I often get called SCUMMY for VOTING lurkers!

Just restating things you see, even though they are not really scummy or significant at all....... this is just IIoA, and is one of Tar's Tells.

So.. did either of you have a POINT when you mentioned this? Are you saying I should be voting a lurker now? are you saying that I am scum because I am NOT voting a lurker?

The reason I voiced my support is because, if I see a filthy lurker at L-1, I will hammer, and I don't want you guys saying it "came out of nowhere" just because you are too lazy to check my meta.
HOWEVER, I have been catching shit for lurker-tunneling lately.. so I am trying to cool it a little.

[camn]

Were you scum in either of the two games in which you grudgekilled kmd?

Yes, and a vig in one.

And I don't consider 'lynching' 'killing'.

So.. why are you answering for Alex and Benmage?

[camn]

lynch me then.

I am starting to get pretty suicidal with the level of reason in this game.

[camn]

camn, can you post a brief rundown of your thoughts on each player in the game?

And no. Maybe this weekend.

[camn]

not just you.. . though your level of logic is sub-par as well.

My comment to KMD is an ongoing conversation between us. The fact that you see it as a scumslip is just a byproduct of your tunnel-vision regarding me. It is no more scummy than me 'buddying' was. . . but you seem to want ANYTHING I do or say to be scummy, regardless of any kind of rational, logical analysis.

Anyway... I am done with your questions. They hardly make sense, and add to the NOISE vs. signal in this game.
Lynch me if you think I am so scummy.
I think it is all you trying to build a crap-case, and thus I don't think you have the guts to actually push my lynch for any of it.


--------ps
for example:

Was your question meant to reveal scummy behavior on their part?

You never even let them answer the question before you asked this.
How does that help the game at all? (don't answer, that's rhetorical.)


------------

PPS
Spyrex.. please come home. We need you. Badly.

[camn]

So please, answer the following two questions.

• If you are town, you don't have the ability to kill him - why would you promise not to?

Thats the whole joke.

I CAN'T KILL IN THIS GAME!!!

[*]If you are town, why did you promise not to kill him, as he could be scum?[/list]

I know you don't think the word "kill" applies to lynches.

You see the lack of rationality to your questions? You persist in asking a question that you have already answered.
There are no Vigs in this game.
If I am town and he is scum..

I CAN'T KILL HIM

.
Since I am, in fact, town.. REGARDLESS of Kmds alignment...

I CAN'T KILL HIM

.

That is the basis of my promise.

[camn]

• She has contributed little to no scumhunting.
  
• She has shown she is more concerned about how she is viewed by the town than about catching scum.
  
• She strongly over-reacted to my investigation of her meta, and OMGUS-voted me. Once again, this was NOT about scumhunting, but about protecting how she is viewed by the town, as evidenced by how weakly she pursued it.

A) OMGUS is not a scumtell.
B) My vote for you was for crapcase, not OMGUS
C) One could argue that your entire attack on me was OMGUS for my voting you earlier.
D) I'm calmer'n you are. Calmer'n you are.

[camn]

Not necessarily. It could be a revenge kill. It could be someone that HASCOW is particularly good at reading....

It could be a lot of things.

Like I said, it's probably due to the player having seen Hascow in many games, and/or seen him do *really* good in one.
But, no matter what, it has one thing in common:

The player has to KNOW Hascow.

Actually, no townie can say what it "probably" is.
As per my quote above.. let us speculate that it was for revenge.

If Hascow was scum in some game, and killed someone off N0, that person might have killed Hascow for revenge..

having never shared a page of a thread with him

DID this happen? I can't know.
Could it have? Sure.
Could it have been random? Sure.
Could it have been someone who HATES playing with Hascow? Sure.

Mastin, how can you say that the player "HAS" to know hascow? How can you say what the NK Reasoning "probably" was? How can you rule out a random choice?
Give me logic, please.. not speculation.

[camn]

[:oops:] Wasn't buddying one of my biggest points against you in tranquility? [/:oops:]

I don't know if you saw it, but GEIFF brought a meta-filled 'case' against me that I only buddy people when I am scum.
He had all these example games............
Of course, on casual inspection, you could see that I buddy people in every game I play, ever!

BM once was scum, and I was a town Power Role.... and he left me alive longer than he should have because I had buddied up to him so well!

I love buddy-ing!

[camn]

I am constantly amazed that you can do that stuff.. . but if you ignore your own stats.. then what is the point?

@KMD.. this weekend I will try and round up who the scum are. Right now I am kind of just keeping up. God forbid I play into the "NOT HUNTING=SCUM" meta....
Hmm...
I would like to see the stats on how often that is true.

Does building crappy cases on Day 1 make you a townie?
Does NOT building cases on Day 1 make you scum?

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.

[camn]

Is that what it means?

What about the fact that I had a vote on you before you even started to get on my case? What does that mean?

[camn]

I thought you already knew what I meant by everything?!

[camn]

OK......I want you to read this twice because you don't seem to be able to get it.

I gave you reasons for my revote.
I even told you later that it wasn't OMGUS.

Yet here you are, asking me AGAIN.
Why do you do this?
Why ask things that you can easily just read?

Are you paying attention?
Are you ignoring what you don't like?
Are you just trying to inflate your appearance of 'scumhunting'?

Which is it?

[camn]

Totally.
And to think.. I joined this game cuz I wanted to play with him again!

[camn]

Question 1.
Are you saying I am FAKING being annoyed with you?

Question 2:
Did you notice that I don't believe in town tells? That I actually said that OMGUS is null?

Question 3: why would you misrep me that way? Once again, you ignore reality...

[camn]

You said:

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.

But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.

Remember this ???

You even went so far as to edit out the part of my quote that mentioned your over-reaction.

[camn]

I think he is trying the KMD GAMBIT... but I am the only person in the history of MS.NET dumb enough to actually fall for it....

[camn]

2 things here are as clear as day:

1. You were trying to say that you are not scummy.

2. You did not deny OMGUS.

A) OMGUS is not a scumtell.

B) My vote for you was for crapcase, not OMGUS

C) One could argue that your entire attack on me was OMGUS for my voting you earlier.
D) I'm calmer'n you are. Calmer'n you are.

Oh, I didn't deny it?
Still not paying attention to reality, huh?

[camn]

GEIFF missed 399... the post where I proved he really is just conveniently avoiding anything I post that doesn't fit into his world-view.

Maybe he is a Red Sox fan.

[camn]

I didn't copy that part of your quote because

it wasn't relevant

. All that was relevant to make my point was the fact that you said getting angry is something townies do.

It was not germane

to the discussion, and did not deserve anything but my scorn and disdain.

You didn't copy part of MY quote because

you were trying to dodge my accusation

. If you are trying to call me a hypocrite, then please explain to me: which part of your post was an accusation that I was trying to dodge?

and EITHER WAY I interpreted it (and still do) as

you trying to turn the discussion away

from your INCREDIBLE failure at reading.

Now you are just stealing my arguments.

[camn]

Is it me or are you mild-OMGUSing everyone who asks you a question or wonders something about you?

With that additional bit of context, so easily left out by GEIFF.. you can see that Alex was referring to me OMGUS-ing "everyone".

Obviously I don't need to reply to that, because it is nuts.
But a little chat on OMGUS theory? I would love to.

[camn]

Wow.. these simulposts are getting wild.

GIEFF..the bottom line?.. I act how I act.

If it is consistent with me acting how I think townies act.. it is because MY ACTIONS AS TOWN are the basis for my opinion on HOW TOWNIES ACT.

this is simple.

Calling me scum because I am acting the way that townies act has no logical footing.
But keep trying.. the more you write, the more you FAIL.

I could destroy your posts all night.. but let me leave you with a thought:

---If I am not FAKING being annoyed.. it means I really AM annoyed, right?
Which goes totally contrary to your argument that I am just ACTING a certain way. If I really am annoyed.. then I really am consistent with my own idea of what a townie IS.. which is rally the greatest argument for me being town.

Put that logical inconsistency in your pipe and smoke it.

[camn]

You are claiming it is a COINCIDENCE that you just happened to respond to him about why OMGUS isn't scummy?

Not at all. Read for meaning.

I am claiming that Alex's accusations were not about YOU.. but about how I react to 'everyone'. Thus I discussed it. You just think everything is about YOU, no?

And no, I can't be bothered with your dumb questions. I am sure I have answered them all anyway.

And PLEASE LYNCH ME!!!!!
PLEASE!
DO IT NOW!!!

I want to die right now just so the world will see how flawed your so-called "scumhunting" is.

Oh, and you ignored my logical proof that you actually think I am town. Whats up with that?

[camn]

Mafia is not the game to take others' words for things.

Especially YOUR WORD, given the amount of factual inaccuracies your "cases" against me have had !!

PS.. i am in a good mood this morning.

GEIFF-- what do you think of KMD so far?

[camn]

I already addressed those questions.

I ask about KMD.. because it seems like a lot of your 'case' is based on meta-reads.
So I would like to point out that KMD has a rather SIGNIFICANT amount of meta on me. More than you, certainly.
SO if you want insight into my play here vs. my meta.. he would be a good resource.
Plus, although we like each other, both of us would be very happy to see the other dead... so I would guess his reads are as unbiased as one can expect.

Unless, of course, you are implying that we are scumbuddies. Are you?

[camn]

Except don't think KMD is older or wiser.
He simply has played a ton of games with me.. whereas you have not.
If you are actually interested in truth, it would be silly to ignore his insight.... especially considering your reliance on my 'meta'.
Of course, no one really thinks you are interested in the truth....

And no, I will not do you that favor. You can read. It would do you good to go through my posts again, I think.

You know what I am already dreading? That this weekend, when, as I have already mentioned, I fully intend on getting down to the biz of reviewing EVERY player for scumminess.... I am going to hear your dumb "appeasement" argument.

It won't be that I am no longer acting 'scummy' according to you.. but that I am 'appeasing' you, which is also 'scummy'.

You have set it up pretty neatly that ANYTHING I do is 'scummy' according to you.
Hunting, not hunting,
OMGUS, NOT OMGUS.....
Playing like I always have, Deviating from my meta..
apparently it ALL works with your arguments.

I only hope you will read back here after this game is over, and realize how wrong you are in every instance.

[camn]

And

UNVOTE

Fielding this torrent of nonsense has totally derailed my plans with Benmage. I'll come back to him someday. Hopefully.

[camn]

Another question for GIEFF....

If I am so committed to "looking town".. why is it you think I am so scummy?

Am I just plain terrible at it? Do I really SUCK at 'looking town'?
Or do you, GEIFF, simply have superhuman perceptive powers, that can easily see through all of my attempts to 'appear town'?

It seems like, If I was so into 'looking town'.. that I would have figured out how to do it by now!

[camn]

Ooo ooo he did that to me too.

When?

[camn]

And you are contending that that was an OMGUS vote?

[camn]

Should I take that as as a yes, or an evasion?

YOu actually had done little other than agree with me before I voted you.

(in 190 and 229)

You CERTAINLY weren't attacking me......
So...What would I be OMG-ing about?

Whereas . . AFTER I voted you, you seem to have gotten a little more negative toward me, no?

(in 305, 438 and 441)

So, once again.... are you saying that >I< OMGUS voted YOU?
Or would you like to retract your implication in Post 441?

[camn]

WELL THEN!.. I will try

harder

to understand the '

context

' of an '

omgus

' vote.
I will take a lesson from you that omgus =/= omgus in all occasions. sometimes it can just be willy-nilly applied to any circumstance.
(which of course makes it even LESS of a scumtell!)
Thank you for expanding my mind.
I was mistaken that the term actually had meaning.

PS..
That vote for for your lack of comprehension and needless attacks on GEIFF in post 300.
I have been studying under Incognito.. the fine art of withholding your reasons for voting.. but I got distracted. Plus I no longer feel like defending GEIFF.

[camn]

If you gave initial context it wouldn't have been an omgus-vote/seemed scummy/made you look like a bad player. I don't know if the wiki offers a handbook or something, but I'd suggest playing some more newbie games, they may be more fitting.

Wow.

[camn]

Well, show me how it's done, then, BIG GUY!
I will proxy my vote to you for the rest of the day. Sonce you are so awesome, your vote SHOULD count for double, right?!

Lets see how EPIC of a player you really are!

VOTE: MASTIN

[camn]

Look.. we will see how good you are.
We'll see how much 'shit' you can recognize.

[camn]

I think overeager town.. but almost to such an extent that it warrants a policy lynch.

And GEIFF.. you could be 'overeager town' regardless of my alignment, no?
So only ONE of jammer's options assume I am town, contrary to your above statement.
(He also left out 'mafia bussing his partner'... which could TOTALLY be true from an outside perspective... given you are the only vote on me.)

Thank you for defending me to benmage. I just deleted something nasty I said about you...

[camn]

Good. because I was dreading it.
It just takes me a long time in these big games to do a comprehensive analysis, like I like to do! (I do them as scum, too.. so it will be a NULL TELL!)

And re: you ' linking to other games to strengthen it'....
You say I am NOT DOING X... and thus I am scum... but Those things I do, I do in my scumgames too! Pretty much ANY Mini game I will do a PBPA whenever things get slow. So me NOT doing them here goes against my SCUM meta, too!

This being a large game might be throwing me off, I think. I don't play a lot of large games.. mostly minis.

If you are scum, how can my pursuing your lynch be over-eager? Why answer for jammer?

If you push a poor case on someone.. it is poor regardless.
Like.. this game I just finished.. I desperately wanted to lurkerlynch early on. If the lurkers HAPPENED to be scum.. would that have made it any less of a lurkerlynch? Nope. Still a lurkerlynch. Just a lucky one.

And why answer for Jammer? In your words:
Was your question meant to reveal logical inconsistencies on his part? I did not think so, and as I think it revealed YOUR logical inconsistencies, I brought it up.

[camn]

GEIFF...

We gotta do something about this.

a) Your case on me is going nowhere.
b) Our argument is NOT helping this game.
c) I am rather convinced it is town vs. town
d) Tons of GOOD leads at finding scum and other things that need attention are falling thought the cracks..
E.G:
---your BM case.
---the Mastin Wagon
---god knows what else.

THUS. I offer you Détente.

If you stop provoking me, I will lay off as well.. and we can pick this up some other day.

Do you accept?

I hope you will, because this has been making me very tired!

[camn]

If you gave initial context it wouldn't have been an omgus-vote/seemed scummy/made you look like a bad player. I don't know if the wiki offers a handbook or something, but I'd suggest playing some more newbie games, they may be more fitting.

Ouch!

I know, right!?

-------------------
I accept your terms, GEIFF.. and I thank you for your kind tone.
Luckily, we have a long game ahead of us to settle things.

[camn]

*Stare*

Vote Mastin

Nice bandwagon. Brilliant reasoning, too. [/sarcasm]

The stare was in reference to the quote above it. Your vote was for other reasons.

Wow.. I forgot about this.

WHAT REASONS, BENMAGE

???

Did you really vote for Mastin with no reason given? And indeed, you barely mentioned his name before that?
What was your reason for THAT vote? it was pretty early on.. you might say it was RVS.... or OMGUS???

What was it?

[camn]

OK.. I might get lazy toward the end... cuz this is a big game.
But here are my thoughts, AS OF NOW, of everyone.

Battle Mage

Looks town to me. I was hoping he would chew alex up and spit him out.. but apparently he didn't have the energy for that.
He also was riding Mastin from his very first post.. which I find.. interesting. File for later.
Prob-town.

SensFan

Town. I think everything he says is totally sensible. Somtimes I don't totally agree on PRINCIPLE.. but mostly I do.

alexhans

I don't like his crazy-long posts. I don't know if I think they are

scummy

.. but I feel like they cover up the REAL alex.
Null read.

GIEFF

Overeager town.

Cephrir

How do you "Forget" a game?
dielurkerdie.

VP Baltar

I DO think you have that kind of integrity!
But I am not willing to push your lynch on those grounds. Outside of that, I think that you are your normal town self! I don't know if I have played with you as scum.. but I don't think you would defend me a scum. I think you would like to see me dead as scum..... so likely-town.

Debonair Danny DiPietro

YOU I don't know if you would or wouldn't defend me as scum.
However, you havent posted much.. and from what I can see, your Info:analysis ratio is pretty high. Something seems weird.. prob-scum

blackcatcontract (replacing Kairyuu)

HOW do you forget about a game again? I await the replacements input.

camn

obvtown!

Kmd4390 (replacing broomhead)

I look forward to us being on the same side for once. Probtown, too.

SpyreX

Come Back! We need you!
null read.

Zachrulez

I get a very 'exernalized' feel from this guy. Like.. every post of his is about what is going on OUTSIDE.. and no posts give us any insight into who HE is......
maybe-scum.

Benmage

Expect me to be riding this guys ass for the next 6 months..
I have some commentary on him, but I need some answers first. Ongoing read.

Mastin

Hmm. You started out very active, but I don't like all your formulas and if/then statements. And then what happened to you? Forget about catchin up.. read the last 3 pages and get in here.
Obv-Scum since Benmage says so.

jammer

Il ike him. This guy seems reasonable. Prob-town.

----------

So there you have it.
The scum are in, according to my study...:
Zachrulez
Debonair Danny DiPietro
Mastin
Benmage

And maybe some of my nulls. And dieCephirdie.
Still a broad field, I know.. but it is early in the game still.

[camn]

There are multiple reasons. They include his self-removing himself from his own NK speculation. I don’t remember if this was before or after, but I believe someone mentioned he NK speculated before as an opener as scum.

Mainly, I don’t like Mastin’s play.

SO

these^^

were the reasons for you reasonless vote inpost 82?

I just want to be sure... your tenses are throwing me off.

@KMD..
a) he has the fervent quality of a true believer.
b) the same reason I thought YOU were town in Tranquility!

[camn]

Yes, the self-aggrandizement + Mastin's overall play was the reason for my vote.

Well.. why didn't you state those reasons at the time of your vote, then?
And would you characterize this behavior of YOURS as 'OMGUS'???

----------------

Just restating things you see, even though they are not really scummy or significant at all....... this is just IIoA, and is one of Tar's Tells.

Is it me or are you mild-OMGUSing everyone who asks you a question or wonders something about you?

Camn... the truth is... that I WAS referring at your vote to GIEFF because you jumped at him for what you believed was a case against you. That's some kind of OMGUS.

Can you explain the inconsistency, Alex?
You reply to my statements regarding YOU and Benmage.. saying that I was "mild-OMGUSing everyone"....
Now you are saying that that was directed toward my vote on GIEFF.

Which is it?

[camn]

(camn intentionally ignoring Geiff)

Yes, the self-aggrandizement + Mastin's overall play was the reason for my vote.

Well.. why didn't you state those reasons at the time of your vote, then?
And would you characterize this behavior of YOURS as 'OMGUS'???

I had fallen behind with this game and was trying to catchup if I failed to mention this, or make clear my reasoning, then that was a rushed mistake on my part.

There is no reason to say "if"..

I attest that you did, in post 82, Vote Mastin with no reason given whatsoever. Do you deny it?
I only press the point because you say "if"... like maybe I am reading wrong.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 52#1757652

Please review.. maybe you can give me an answer without equivocation?

[camn]

Kmd voted me with absolutely no reasoning in Post 319. Reconcile the inconsistency in your suspicion of Benmage with your refusal to apply the same standard to Kmd.

A) I thought we had Detente.
B) BENMAGE is the one who brought up voting with no reasoning. Not me, and not KMD. You remember, he labeled it "OMGUS". My questioning of Benmage is ongoing. Stay out of it unless you can keep up.

I am arguing that camn believes voting lurkers is scummy, which explains why she hasn't done it, even though it is pro-town to vote those whom you think are scum.

A) I thought we had Detente.
B) I believe in Policy-Lynching lurkers. I don't believe all lurkers are scum.
C) I

don't

believe voting lurkers is scummy. I do it all the time.
D) So far I haven't seen a problem with the pace of this game.

Voting for ANYONE other than a player who you think is scum, is scummy.

This is totally untrue, and I disagree with it utterly.
E.G., policy lynches., voting no-lynch, clarity-lynches, revenge lynches, pressure votes, lurkerlynching.

[camn]

Yes, you must be reading wrong. The post clearly hints at it, despite myself being rushed. Also there is a post, what 4 minutes after that reiterates the cause.

I just want clarity.
I don't know why you are going back and forth on this...

Are you saying you in fact DID provide reasons.. but that they were just "hinted"?
Or that you forgot to because you were 'catching up'?

Please answer clearly.
Did you or did you not provide reasoning for your vote in post 82?
If so, could you point it out, because I don't see it.

If you want to know the "why" of this.. I will tell you.

While you were insulting me you said this:

You mention me what…once before in the text in a null reference and than drop a post which only contains a vote. No prior/lead-up explanation. Just a vote. Period. End of story. That in my book is a quintessential example of an “omgus” vote.

And when I look at post 82.. it looks like you did exactly that thing.
I wonder if you see it the same way?

Because before your vote, the only thing you said in reference to Mastin was:

So aren’t all roads point towards Battle Mage?

Which hardly is any kind of accusation or 'context', wouldn't you agree?

In fact, maybe I am the crazy one... @GIEFF (or anyone).. what do you think about this?
Am I nuts, or is Benmage a giant hypocrite?
Am I delusional, or did Benmage HIMSELF do the very thing that HE calls "an omgus-vote/seemed scummy/made you look like a bad player"?

I even gave him the chance to say it was RVS.. but he says no.

[camn]

ah GEIFF.

The reason i ask about this is simple.
All the time, townies will do things that I think are 'scummy'.
But only RARELY do townies do things that THEY THEMSELVES think are scummy.
And even LESS frequently will they do things that they openly ADMIT are scummy!


I dont really mind 'no reason' votes...
But look how Benmage dances around my relatively simple questions.
Some of them are simple yes/no type questions, yet he gives 'ifs' and the like.
Why doesnt he just admit it and move on?
Why does he squirm and avoid?
Why try to rewrite history?
He might get away with it, since people wont go back and look for themselves... But i will remember.

[camn]

I don't really understand why BM called me town, either, zach. Should I just call it a coincidence that the two players I find the most scummy and have spent the most effort trying to lynch BOTH think I am town, yet BOTH of whom previously voted me, BOTH times without real reason, and BOTH of whom think the other is obv-town? I think not.

My votes had reasons, which I stated both at the time of the votes, and later on.
You will blow our truce if you continue to post factually incorrect information about me.

[camn]

jammer's last post is so town it makes my eyes bleed.

[camn]

Clearly not all of your votes.

Stay out of it if you can't keep up. No one is talking about you.

----------------

erm what? also, whats this truce shizzle about, with you and Gieff?

The spew IS a symptom of what is going on - we're already seeing the game get clogged up because of it. In a mountainous game especially, it is a wonderful smokescreen. It needs to stop.

This is why I offered the truce. I was thinking the same thing.

[camn]

My scumhunting was genuine in that game, too. . . We knew there were two groups.
2-scumgroup games twist scum meta.

[camn]

What exactly do you mean? How do you rank "quality" of votes.. ?

And more importantly... are you saying it is

scummy

?
Because terms like "worst voter" don't have much meaning.
But since you don't even know what 'omgus' means.. I am not really sure YOU know what you mean.

In fact, looking back.. post 606 really has no meaning at all. It just adds more characters to the thread.

[camn]

Ah. Maybe I see you are responding to KMD?

If you look deeper, you will find I did indeed give reasons for each of my votes.... eventually.
Withholding those reasons initially was intentional.
I don't read KMD as thinking withholding reasons is scummy.. but more that NOT HAVING REASONS AT ALL is scummy, no?

ALSO.. I don't think forming a NON random vote in the RVS is "lazy", do you KMD?

[camn]

So, it seems Bnmage's quotes really are NOT answers to your questions.. right KMD?
He fails at answering just like he fails at comprehension.

------------

Furthermore..... I would further argue that I am the most brilliant voter of this game.

Post #1 was a non-random vote. That is amazing by itself.

My initial reasoning on GIEFF STILL STANDS. I think he is probably too dangerous to have in endgame.

PLUS.. Benmage gets scummier by the post.
And I am STILL willing to proxy my vote to him, since he took it upon himself to get personal. I want to see Mastin's flip, since BenMage is so sure of his "skill".

[camn]

@KMD:

Initially it was that his scum-game was too good to let him live.
Now, additionally, it is that his TOWN-game is too POOR for him to be reliable in endgame.

Of course, this goes to the essence of my game. I really think my endgame-play is pretty strong.. partly because, as town OR scum, I try hard to ensure the survival of players I think I can really count on.. and the elimination of players I DON'T.

I catch hell for this sometimes.. but (attn:Gieff) I do it anyway! And I intend on doing it this game, just like every other game!

Essentially, I wold rather lynch a 70%townie that I think will mislynch in ENDGAME, than a 60%townie that I think will vote correct.

LET IT BE KNOWN:
I am in no way pushing the lynch of CONFIRMED TOWNIES.
Although I have a town-read on Geiff.. I could EASILY be wrong (it has happened!). . and to mitigate that risk, he should probably die someday. Or convince me of his ability to make the right decisions. (Which wouldn't be that hard, btw.)

@BENMAGE.

How many games have you played where the first vote was not a random or jokevote?
If I was indeed 'lazy' I could easily have jokevoted ANYONE.. but instead I took the time to take a stand.
You make so little sense it is incredible.
Also.. I intentionally withheld my reasoning, for certain effect.
How is this lazy?

And what does is a "poor voting scheme"? What does that even mean?
Please show me..... I learn at the feet of the master.

[camn]

@GIEFF

No no.. not at all.
Vote me if you want.
But you finding some actual scum would go a long way to improving my outlook..

Plus... what do you think about the fact that not even ONE of these 14 other players has jumped on your case?
In fact, more than one has said it was not-so-good.

What does this mean?

Objectively, I would think (via the KMD Gambit) that scum would jump on a crap-case on a townie...... especially if it was presented well... so I could be scum.
Of course, if YOU are scum, and part of a 2-man team.. then that obviously WOULDN'T happen.

What other situations could explain 12-14ish townies, and 1-3ish scum, pretty much ignoring your case on me?

@KMD

I wouldn't lynch him for either reason.

Ah, but I

WOULD

That is what make me fun!

@BENMAGE

I hate to say this.. but maybe YOU are the one who should go back to newbie games?
There is a thing called strategy.
But I will wait and see the results of your INCREDIBLE SCUMHUNTING before I judge you.

(plus, the reasons for my Mastin vote are clear.)

[camn]

(plus, the reasons for my Mastin vote are clear.)

Could you please reiterate them for me? I must've missed them. Or direct me to the post I can find them.

I HAVE GIVEN YOU MY VOTE FOR THE DAY.

I will vote anyone you vote.
You are a Power Role.
A Double-voter.
Hurry up and find scum gogogogogo!!!

Show me how it is done!!

[camn]

camn and Benmage, stop cluttering the thread. Benmage is just arguing similar points I was. The whole point of the "truce" was to stop the pages of back-and-forth, but now you two are just continuing it.

he keeps asking me dumb questions.. !
are you saying i should ignore them?

I do agree they hardly deserve answers....
.. and he IS simply sheeping YOUR case.......
.. though he doesn't have the guts to vote for me....

Hmm.

Geoff.. what about my post 623?
I think that would be worthwhile to hear.... do you have a theory?

[camn]

@alex:
a) I am not ACTIVELY trying to policy lynch geiff. But it is not out-of-the-question.
b) Funny and serious camn go places together. But I meant it. Jammer is pretty town imo.
c) Define 'scumhunting' if you are going to persist in saying I am not doing it, pls.
d) geiff and I have played ONE game together.. as scum together. I replaced in, and Geiff played brilliantly, and we won.
e) you need to read ALL THE WAY TO THE END before you ask questions. My reasons for voting Mastin are clear. My reasons for NOT voting Geiff are clear.
This running, stream-of-consciousness posting style doesn't help us at all.
Try and find the answers to your questions before asking them.

[camn]

2.) The rest of it is up to camn to tear apart but its paper-thin.

Im SO glad you are finally here.

But be advised, I agreed to NOT destroy geiff's case anymore.. to cut down on the postcount. And since arguing with him is like trying to order chinese takeout with the sauce on the side.

[camn]

UNvote
Vote Camn

[camn]

Thats what i think too, bm.
Too bad he is wasting it on a crapcase on a townie.

[camn]

I forgot to mention:

Anybody on the camn-wagon will be viewed as cleared town by me the rest of the game,

Even when I flip town?

[camn]

......(which would probably involve unvoting her). Does anybody else want to offer me anything if I unvote camn? .

Here is the essence of the failure of your entire case.
I never said that.
In fact, I said the OPPOSITE.

Yet you just say that that is what I think. With no evidence or

anything

.

Is this what you call "scumhunting"?
because it doesn't work.
You are simply pushing a mislynch, distracting people from actual hunting, and doing it in a clever way that will actually give you some sort of "defense" after my flip (if I am lynched, obv).

[camn]

That depends; will Sens view everybody off the wagon as town even when you flip scum?

I won't flip scum. He happens to be right, and you happen to be wrong.

If it were true (and camn were town), saying it out loud completely ruins it, and ensure at least one scum will keep off the wagon. ...
Why did you ruin this, Sens, if you really believe it?

By reading his post, I conclude that he thinks that the lynch CAN'T HAPPEN without all the scum.
Nice false dichotomy.

However.. I agree with the other part of your reasoning.
It IS a good trade..me for 6 confirmed townies.
That it why I support my lynch.

Plus the fact that the overall level of play in this game is so poor I am suicidal.

[camn]

Don't tell me you weren't referring to unvoting you... that would be ridiculous.

That is what I am telling you.
Thank you for the insult.
Feel free to ignore it now, and pretend I never said it.

So, I am left to conclude that you asked for a truce to stop me pursuing your lynch.

Actually, I was trying to save this day. But I don't think it is going to happen.
I actually WANT to die. I want to be lynched.
So once again, your conclusions are wrong.

And if my case is as crappy and scummy as you claim, it SHOULD be really hard for me to convince you I can make the right decisions, shouldn't it?

Did I claim it was scummy?
I think it is crappy, yes, but scummy... not really.
And yes, It will be hard.

[camn]

That it why I support my lynch.

No. You "support" your lynch because you tied your vote to BenMage's because you would rather prove a point to him than try to find scum. Much like you would rather look townie than try to find scum, but at least looking townie does have some benefit to the town.

Actually.. I would rather die than continue this game.
I don't care about looking townie at all.
But please.. continue ignoring what I actually say and inserting what YOU think in its place. that works.

MORE CAMN VOTES PLEASE!!!!!!

I have felt this way for a while.. but I felt bad about getting suicidal. (they say suicide is anti-town)
But I honestly have come to the conclusion that my death will HELP the town, by shedding light onto the incredibly POOR state of you and BenMage's so-called "logic"... and by taking away the distraction of your unhealthy obsession with me.

If I were a dayVig I might have even vigged me

[camn]

And

Camn

... voting yourself does nothing else than confusing me...

if you were town... it would never be a good strategy to lynch yourself unless you were going for a trade with someone of 1 after the other if the first doesn't flip scum (Which seems also bad because both could be town) so, at this point, it only hurts us.

1) Are you town and trying to make a point by voting yourself or do you EARNESTLY believe it will help? why are we gonna gain something from your lynch if you're town? SensFan's defense of you is just a threat and a lie. So I need a real reason.

2) The other theory I have is that you're pulling a gambyt to look town... the "look, she is willing to die, so she probably isn't scum" one....

Do you see why is most unhelpful?

Camn- what do you think of this post? To me, it stinks of coaching, and perhaps even indicates that Alex knows you are town. Given you know your own role, what do you make of it?

BM

I think it stinks, too.
Despite Gieff's opinion... I like my vote on me.
Initially I was just following Benmage, but I had to think a lot about whether I should just replace out or what.. and I decided this:
1) SO MUCH effort has been put into pushing a crapcase on me, I think that we need to see my flip just for clarity.

2) PLUS.. i HATE this game right now. I actually want death. Incog warned me that it would be like this.. but I am an optimist.
So, If my death can help clarify things, I am all for it. Generally day 1 sees a mislynch... so I might as well be it, right?

3) FURTHERMORE.. my last couple games I have had a lot of anxiety re: getting mislynched. I never have been mislynched before.. and I have been getting some performance-anxiety, I guess . I figure I should just get it out of the way.

--------------

What is the SCUM BENEFIT for any of those actions? Putting yourself in the spotlight in a negative fashion in a mountainous game?

I love you spyrex.

I spent to day at the beach.. and I thought about this game, and what was bothering me about it the most. And mostly THIS was my problem with Geiff's "case":

To me, it seems he argues again and again I am "Lying".
Obviously scum lie, but the crux of the matter was what you just said: what would be the scum motivation?

For instance.. he asked me if my 2nd vote for him was OMGUS.
I said it wasn't.
He said I was lying.
.. the question.. What Benefit, as scum, would I have to lie about

that

?
I admit to Alex that I get omgus-attitude toward people who annoy me.... so I clearly don't have any problem admitting to my emotional play.

So why would I lie, as scum?

I decided that is what frustrates me the most.
He asks a question..I answer.. he says I am lying.
This is no way to debate.

I just hope that when this game is over he is intropective enough to look at his play, and get better because of it.
I am pretty sure Benmage isn't, since healready is making excuses for my mislynch:

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s probably a duck.

It’s not our fault

if you turn out to be a chicken.

[camn]

1) Would you rather lynch alex or Mastin?

2)What did you mean when you said it wouldn't be that hard for me to convince you of my ability to make the right decisions?

1) Mastin. He is useless. I don't like alex's attitude... but at least he is playing. I have hit scum a lot lately on lurkerlynches, as well.

2) I respect your play from our last game together, but this game, as I have said, I don't feel like you are being very objective THIS game. You have avoided some of my questions, and just GENERALLY seem really...

ineffective

.
Plus, you are missing a certain sense of

dialogue

. It hasn't been like we were having a discussion this game, but more like I say something, and you call me a liar.
I just finished a newbie game where this new guy named Arelian was really wonderful about saying what he thought.. and then listening to other peoples responses.. and actually taking those responses IN and using them to help guide his decision making. He and I (both town) won that game with back to back lylo-scumlynches.... because we could discuss things. This happened DESPITE the fact that I was on the top of his scumlist almost the whole game. Even though he thought I was scum.. he STILL listened to what I had to say... and we won.
Right now, it is hard for me to see that happening with you. I see you forcing your opinion down everyone's throat.
... THAT is what would need to change... and I think you can do it! Easily!

Does it make sense?

[camn]

I think my explanations are much more logical than the ones you provide for your actions. For example, you tell me your vote for me isn't OMGUS, yet admit to alex that it is. To me, that looks like you are lying, no matter what you may say about it afterwards. I am sorry if this frustrates you, but I would be more willing to believe what you say if it made more sense.

Like this^^ This is not objective.

Lets analyze this.

A) I never did this:

For example, you tell me your vote for me isn't OMGUS, yet admit to alex that it is

B) BUT let's say I did, just for the sake of argument. Why, as SCUM, would I do this? I honestly don't think OMGUS votes are scummy. So why, AS SCUM, wouldn't I admit it if that had been my reason? Or as town, for that matter?
The answer? I WOULD HAVE ADMITTED IT!
I sometimes even list omgus as the reason for my votes... as scum and town. So why lie?

C) You say I am not making a lot of 'sense'. How would this indicate I am scum? Am I more confused and nonsensical as scum than as town? If anything.. I take MORE care with my posts as scum than as town!

D) In conclusion, I would have to argue.. maybe I am NOT lying. Maybe I am telling the truth, and I actually DO make sense! That seems like a more objective conclusion.. since a hypo-scum-camn has no motivation to tell these lies you say I am telling!

[camn]

I don't think omgus'ing is scummy myself. I do it as town all the time. But people do feel it is. And as scum I tend to play a bit more reserved. So even if I feel it isn't a big scum tell, others might and so as scum i'd avoid doing it.

Alright. I understand that perspective.
I, however, do NOT avoid doing it.

As a matter of fact, I have omgus-KILLED people more than once.
In fact, I would say that me holding a grudge (which is the essence of omgus) is one of my defining characteristics.

So, although I understand why YOU would lie... why would >I< lie?
And more importantly, why would I lie to one person.. and not to another?

[camn]

I, however, do NOT avoid doing it.

As a matter of fact, I have omgus-KILLED people more than once.

You've done this as scum?

Yes, as scum and town. This is no secret....
So my question remains.. why would I lie?

[camn]

For clarity..
I WILL follow Benmage's vote.
I DO support a Mastin lurkerlynch.
I AM in the tired-of-today camp.

And yes, I agree, those are contradictory.
But I bet he meant ALTHOUGH instead of BECAUSE.

-------------

Preview edit:

UNVOTE
VOTE: MASTIN

[camn]

B0ut, If he doesn't, you'll have to remember it.

Is Alex ALREADY trying to take credit for staying off the Mastin Wagon?

What if they are scum and know Camn is town? etc, etc... So... I'm not willing to be wrong about Camn right now...

They could ALL be town who

THINK

I am town..
or some could be scum that

KNOW

I am town....

but they certainly couldn't

all

be scum!

[camn]

alex and camn, are you two allowed to post in the QT during the day, or only at night?

only at nigh------
OH YOU! You ALMOST GOT ME!!

Just kidding.
Geiff.. what about our whole OMGUS discussion?
If he was my buddy.. why did he contradict me, and say he actually WAS talking about you, when I made it clear I thought we were talking about him and Ben?

Plus, just cuz I am for a Mastin lynch...don't think that I am against an alex lynch.
I am for it.
and I certainly am not his buddy.

[camn]

FYI to everyone...

GEIFF cant be trusted.
He is very selective about what he quotes.
And he calls things whatever he wants, regardless of reality.
My opinion on alex has naturally developed as the game progresses. I like him less and less.

If you look at me in iso you can see more than one NON-wishywashy posts re: him

eg, my 44, 102, 111, 112, 117 and 118.

These don't fit into Geiffs current attack.. so naturally they are ignored.

Not that I think Geiff even made a worthwhile point.. I don't think the posts he quoted were wishy-washy. I think they were specific as to my opinion at the time.
Of course, now, for the rest of the game, I could easily see GEIFF calling me "wishy-washy" toward alex, as if it were true.

that is all.

[camn]

Camn, do you think alex's behavior towards you is coaching?

No.. I agree with Zach(ithink) that it is just his style. It is part of his style I dont like, and I seem to remember not likeing it for similar reasons in mini799...

Now.. a question for YOU:

And so, I ask, from their perspective, even if camn WERE town, do they agree that Alex coaching camn is scummy? Trying to prove #2.

What would be alex's scum-motivation to do this?

I think that ALEX thinks that coaching is pro-town. He has an IC mentality, and considers us all newbies... thus making it a null-tell in his case.

[camn]

Maybe, on a meta-level, Geiff is ALSO trying to gain townie points by setting himself against the Mastin wagon.

Odds are Mastin will not survive until endgame unless his play changes DRAMATICALLY.... so this whole gambit, if Mastin flips town, can easily be referred back to by Geiff to try and gain cred.

It could really be the same thing he is accusing Alex of, only much more clever. Kinda need to see the flip, though.

-----------------

and if mastin does flip town. Alex's over excessive defense is certainly something to note.

What if Mastin flips scum? Is Alex's defense less notable then?

[camn]

In fact, the only people AGAINST an alex lynch seem to be Benmage, Zach, and camn. All of whom seem to be VERY against it.

Actually.. this IS a blatant lie.
I challenge you to find me opposing an alex lynch.
I challenge you further to find me being "VERY" against it.
You misrep me once again.

Here are some things I found....

My opinion on alex has naturally developed as the game progresses. I like him less and less.

Plus, just cuz I am for a Mastin lynch...don't think that I am against an alex lynch.

I am for it.

Is Alex ALREADY trying to take credit for staying off the Mastin Wagon?

[camn]

Great. So vote him.

You refuse my challenge?

[camn]

He does refuse my challenge.
Some say "lynch all liars".

UNVOTE
VOTE GIEFF

[camn]

I challenge you to find me opposing an alex lynch.
I challenge you further to find me being "VERY" against it.

Why are you ignoring my challenge, Gieff?
I support an alex lynch.
I have never opposed an alex lynch.

You are starting to trip over your own misrepresentations, i think.

[camn]

I agree with VP Balthar.^^

[camn]

Geiff has taken to simply mis-repping people's positions.
Who needs real cases when you can flood the thread with words and tables?

[camn]

See, if I were camn, now alex would say "Hey GIEFF, I advise you to adjust your playstyle because people find it scummy."

Coaching, like this??:

I'm not claiming I need to meta camn... I don't have the will nor the time. I never metaed mastin either. You're the one who lives by and for mafia, it seems.

So next time, think of a better excuse than "I just need to meta them."

FTR.. I fully support a Mastin lynch now.
Or an alex lynch NOW.
I am OK with a Geiff lynch... simply to end the day.

Basically I STILL agree with Sensfan.

[camn]

Come on, Ben!! Lets do it!!
I am feeling bloodthirsty!

[camn]

UNVOTE
VOTE MASTIN!

[camn]

You call that 'constructive'? Really?

And a real question..

Are you really so shocked that you weren't nightkilled, Benmage?
For serious.

[camn]

Maybe.

If you aren't surprised.. which I agree that you are not...

why did you write:

Oh wow, glad i lvied tonight.

... especially the "oh wow"???

[camn]

Oh wow, glad i lvied tonight.

The fear of dying, and all my tedious work, also made me not want to continue my iso reads...maybe now that I am alive!

So.. I understand that you ARE NOT actually "particularly surprised" to be alive....
In light of that, these quotes seem a little off to me.
Can you reconcile your "fear of dying" with your lack of particular surprise?

Cited:

....
Are you really so shocked that you weren't nightkilled, Benmage?
For serious.

....
Not particularly surprised I suppose...but more happy, since my efforts would've been a watse of time and would've depressed me.

[camn]

lol fine fuck everyone u guys are dumb.

Unvote

vote Benmage

I'd suggest playing some more newbie games, they may be more fitting.

[camn]

Oh wow, glad i lvied tonight.

The fear of dying, and all my tedious work, also made me not want to continue my iso reads...maybe now that I am alive!

So.. I understand that you ARE NOT actually "particularly surprised" to be alive....
In light of that, these quotes seem a little off to me.
Can you reconcile your "fear of dying" with your lack of particular surprise?

Cited:

....
Are you really so shocked that you weren't nightkilled, Benmage?
For serious.

....
Not particularly surprised I suppose...but more happy, since my efforts would've been a watse of time and would've depressed me.

[camn]

It is not in the town's interest for me to say any more.

KMD Gambit, huh?

@BattleMage:
Benmage said he was NOT particularly surprised that he was NOT nightkilled.
Do you think that is true?

It jives with his doing night isos as town...
but it doesn't jive with some of his phrasing early on.

Your thoughts?

[camn]

The part regarding camn was serious. The question about self-voting/self hammering and being banned was serious. The unleashing of the hounds was actually subtly semi-serious because thats where camn and gieff started their accusations at my first post. My "oh wow"...you did a similar post and It'll be peculiar if they simply ignore you.

Oh yeah..

Hey BattleMage...
If you were so worried about getting killed.. why did you do a bunch of Iso-reads during the night phase......

Oh wait.
You didn't.
It totally isn't the same thing at all.
Never mind.

And Ben.. ICs have rules regarding self-voting. Normal players don't.

[camn]

So I said it seemed as if the three of you were very against his lynch, and actively trying to stop the 8 people who had listed alex as a potential lynch from considering it. It seemed that way now, and it still seems that way.

I was never "very against" an alex lynch, and I never stated that I was. You fail to bring any evidence of this allegation... yet you repeatedly allege it!
I'm Just saying.
Misreps should not stand.
The sad part is, given the pace of this game.. if you say it enough, people might start to believe it.

@ BM..
1) I will hammer a lurker almost any time.
2) I

am

anti-Benmage as a PERSON. I also think he is scummy.
But this early D1 bandwagon was moving a little quickly

even for me

.
3) I was trying to do some investigation.. but it got steamrolled.

[camn]

i support lurkerlynches of all kinds.

Plus, even if he is town, GIEFF is not an asset to this game.

[camn]

All lurkers must die. I have no preference on order.

[camn]

This town needs an enema.

I will continue to hammer lurkers and/or GEIFF or Benmage until the level of daily posting becomes readable.
It is taking all of my skill to simply keep up with new posts.. and I certainly have lost track of any OLD biz I wanted to attend to.

I suspect this game will only be playable when we get to around 10 people..

VOTE CEPHIR

PS.. I never would have wasted a kill on VP if I were scum.
Put that WIFOM in your pipe and smoke it.

[camn]

I don't remember anybody accusing you of killing VP. Why the unnecessary defense?

This kind of thing is why you need to die.

Do you not think I am scum anymore?
Because thinking I am scum is synonymous with saying I killed VP.

Why the unnecessary questions?

Plus no.. I can count. I know it isn't the hammer.
That line was a pre-explanation for any hammering I may do now, or any time in the future.. with or without warning.
It is a clear statement of position. I am not voting for a trick, to gauge reactions, nor any other reason than the fact that

I want blood, and death, and destruction.

[camn]

...

Debonair Danny DiPietro

..... prob-scum

Kmd4390

... Probtown...

SpyreX

null read...

Meh.. not the greatest D1 reads ever... but oh well.

@KMD
a) I hope we are even NOW!
b) I too was shocked that everyone thought I was a "weird" NK choice... I mean OBV!!
c) I am disappointed at the lack of respect shown to me by DDD in your quicktopic. He apparently doesn't know that I would have seen all three of you dead had I lived. Hm.