Newbie 865 - Game over!

[imkingdavid]

Hey guys. Get ready to read; this post is long. I'll try to keep most of my posts short and to the point, but since this is the intro post, I'm trying to put in some info for the newer players.

I'm your IC for the game. As your IC, my role is to be helpful as much as I can for new players who are just learning the ropes of online mafia, or even mafia in general. However, I'm going to play this just like any other game, so don't expect me or the SE's to hold your hand.

I go by imkingdavid, david, kingdavid, ikd, or any variation thereof; just make sure it's clear that you're referring to me. But for the sake of staying sane, you can use abbreviations to refer to people; I will be doing so as well. Just try and don't be offensive or anything.

A few things to realize first: just because I'm IC, I'm not automatically the know-it-all. I can be wrong some times, and probably will be. I have, however, played my share of games (I think this will be my 8th here on this site), so I have a bit more experience in certain situations and know what does and doesn't work.
That being said, I also have my own opinion on how things should be done. That doesn't make it the correct or only way to do things. If you see a flaw in something I'm saying, point it out. I'll do the same for you.

I see that tracker has opted not to begin with RVS (the Random Voting Stage) which is something I agree with. I am not a huge supporter of RVS, as, to me, it just seems pointless. Although, I'm sure it does have its merit, as most newbie game do begin with it to sort of break the ice and get some discussion going.
But moving on, I can see we've already got some questions posed, which I think everyone should take some time and think about and then answer. By the way, please try not to give an answer to a question not directed to you unless the person to whom it is directed has already answered it. This prevents the person that is supposed to answer it from just stealing what you said if they like it without having to think for themselves.
I will answer the question(s) posed to me at the end of this post, and will post some of my own as well.

These next couple of paragraphs are really directed to the newer players, as those who have already played a game or two or have browsed a couple of games on the site will know what I'm talking about already. So if you already know this stuff, you can skip down a few paragraphs unless you feel like reading.

----------------------------------------------
Here are some common terms/abbreviations used in game:

• WIFOM = "Wine In Front Of Me" - This comes from the movie/novel Princess Bride, during the "Battle of Wits" scene. Here's the basic idea:

  But that's just what he wants me to think, so I'll do the opposite. But maybe that's what he wants me to think, so I'll not do the opposite. But maybe that's what he wants me to think...

• EBWOP = "Edit By Way Of Post" - If you will notice, there is no edit button on your posts except in the Mish Mash, General Discussion, and Mafia Discussion forums. That means that whatever you post is there forever. You cannot change it. So think before you hit submit. I'll explain the value of the "preview" button in a bit.
  
• L-# = "Lynch - #" - Example: L-2. Basically, the # represents the number of votes needed before a lynch occurs. So a user at L-2 needs 2 more people to vote for him before he is lynched.
  
• Bandwagon - a lot of votes against the same person in quick succession with little or no change in reasoning. This can be used by scum to initiate a quick lynch of a townie without scum having to hammer.

Those are the ones I can think of off of the top of my head. If you see anyone use any others and need to know what they mean, either consult the wiki or ask.

I mentioned the preview button above. This is a handy tool for a couple of reasons. For one, it allows you to see your post exactly as it can be seen when you hit Submit. This way, you can see and fix any broken BBCode tags (such as quote or bold tags). Secondly, if you look under the message box that you enter your post into, there is a Topic Review box that lists the most recent posts. If you hit preview, this box updates, so not only can you look back at a post that you are trying to respond to, but also you can see any new posts made since you started your post. It's a good idea, especially after taking the time to type out a long post, to preview it just to make sure.

One thing you should all do if you haven't already is get an avatar (picture that appears under your name). Doing so makes it MUCH easier to quickly, at a glance, tell who posted what. Because colors and shapes are much easier to tell between than plain black text. Of course, this isn't required, so if you can't find something suitable, don't worry. You can always add or change your avatar later on if you find a better picture.

Finally, realize that by signing up for this game, you made a commitment to the game. If you for whatever reason cannot commit to this game, it's perfectly fine to ask the mod to be replaced out. You can always sign back up for another game later on when you are able to. However, it's not cool to just sign up and leave us hanging.
----------------------------------------------

Ok, so now to answer those questions.

imkingdavid (IC): As our IC, what are your concerns about this game?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean with "concerns". But to answer to the best of what I do understand, I am hoping that this game will provide a good learning environment for all of the participants and allow each of us to increase our own skill with the game.

And one final question for everyone: What is your view on No-Lynching? Is their ever a time where No-Lynching would be better than a lynch?

No-lynching, for those who don't know, is when the town as a whole decides not to lynch anyone that particular day. It can be achieved by voting for No Lynch (as opposed to voting a specific person). A lot of newer players come into the game with the belief that we should not lynch the first day, as the chances are in favor of lynching a pro-town role (7/9) as opposed to a pro-mafia role (2/9). While, yes, you are correct, you also need to realize that as a town, our only real weapon (besides any potential power roles) is our vote. So by not voting, we are giving the mafia a free pass. The only way we can win as a town is to lynch the mafia, and by not lynching, we hurt our chances of winning. Realize that all people who get lynched still win the game if their side wins (a lynched or night-killed pro-town player wins with the rest of the town, whereas a lynched mafia-aligned player can still win if his or her partner survives to the end). On top of that, we can get some good insight based on who votes for whom and such. So, in my opinion, and based on my experience, it is not a good idea to no-lynch.

Now, for those of you who are new, please don't just copy what I said; actually think about it and if you have a differing opinion, you're welcome to share it. As a town, we need discussion. While it's not good to dwell on game theory, it can help us get started with the game.

Also, I'm bored, mind if I answer them all? :/.

Like I said above, I think it's best for each person to answer questions directed at them before other people answer those questions. But after that, I guess you're welcome to give your opinion as well.

I tend to lurk and make a big-ish post every so often. I normally average one or two posts in a day (real day, not a mafia day !).

It's good to be enthusiastic and active, but just so you realize, some games may go more slowly than others, so two posts a day is welcome to keep things running. But just don't expect everyone else to post that often either. The reason for the 20 day deadline is because people sometimes cannot post every day or even every other day.

20 days? Damn, longer discussion time than I've ever played before.

You'll get used to it. And that can be cut short if we come to a decision on a lynch before that. While it's best to stretch discussion out as long as we can, it doesn't always last up to deadline. Deadline is just there in case we do take a long time to come to a decision (although if discussion is still going strong, the mod may opt to add even another week).

-------------

I know tracker already basically asked a similar question to Gayle, but I'll go ahead and post a more general version to everyone:
What is your experience in playing mafia (either online or offline)?

I'll answer this myself later when I get a chance, but at the moment I've got to go.

Cheers!

[imkingdavid]

EBWOP: I failed to mention the following above: Please read the mod's rules. Although all mods in newbie games essentially have the same rules, there can be some variations, and it's good to know what they are. For instance, Elmo will cause a no-lynch if deadline hits without a majority of votes on one person, whereas other mods will lynch the person with the most votes and such. All that to say, read the rules.

[imkingdavid]

What? Nuuuu.

Failed quotes .

~Canada

You have to put the stuff after the = in quotation marks, so for instance (remove the *): [*quote="imkingdavid"][/quote]. or just [*quote][/quote] works too if you don't want to label it.

Really? A month long day... That doesn't sound odd to anyone else? ^.^. Go to school "Only 160 hours left 'till the day ends!" "What?"

It's really only if we desparately need it and the mod is feeling kind. In most cases, the day will be done before the deadline hits.

Also, a quick question. Does the preview button also show the latest posts on the thread (including ones posted after you started typing?)

Yes. It also shows you when your quote tags are messed up. lol.
but you have to hit preview again for it to update the "Topic Review" box under the message box area; it doesn't reload automatically.

The preview page is quite handy.

[imkingdavid]

Hey, RPG. Good to see you again, too.

What? Explain why you said this. It appears to be in jest, but it just sticks out wierdly in the rest of the post.

I'll explain this one. My sig and avatar both reference "The Game". Do a google search on "lose the game" and it should tell you what you need to know. It has nothing to do with this game (mafia).

Anyway, like I said, I'll go ahead and answer my own question about experience in playing mafia:
I have, like I said, played quite a few games on this site. This will be my 8th, including the one other that I am currently in. I have also played numerous times offline. I enjoy both, although I sort of like the speed and actual human interaction of playing offline better. But this is still just as fun at times.

And since RPG answered the question directed at him, I'll give it a shot as well:

Do you think that different questions to everyone or the same question to everyone would be more beneficial?

I think that most of the questions you asked above should have been directed at everyone, although it's alright to get an individual's opinion on a certain subject. IMO, most game theory questions should be directed at everyone (with a few exceptions where necessary for the sake of discussion).
However, there are some questions (which will mostly appear later on in the game) that really only apply to one person, so it would be counter-productive to ask everyone.

Anyway, you won't be seeing very much activity from me this early in the morning normally, but since I had some homework to finish up, I decided to check back and see if anything had happened. But I would normally be asleep right now, so don't expect me at this hour in the future.

[imkingdavid]

EBWOP: btw, changed my avatar to avoid further confusion. cheers. good night.

[imkingdavid]

How do you feel meta plays a role in a newbie game?

I think that they are valid to a point, but also should be used with a grain of salt. Peoples' play style changes as they get more experienced, regardless of alignment. Plus, there is a bit of WIFOM involved in meta-ing, as a person could play a particular way on purpose to get you to think that they are one role when they're really another. But yeah, there's no harm in doing a bit of research and sharing what you find.

Hello. I'm CommieX. Yup.

Canada: Do you prefer to be town or scum?

Not sure I like this. Probably nothing to get exited about this early, but still noteworthy.

I sort of see where you're coming from, but it is a valid question, and actually is quite common in a lot of games around here.

-----

I think I understand what Gayle is saying in reference to the "no lynch" rule. He's saying that if the mod forces a no lynch if we hit deadline without a majority (as is the case with this game), it is interesting to see how people react as the deadline gets nearer with the threat of a no lynch if they don't lynch quickly.

---

Well, it looks like everyone has posted at least once since the game started. Great! Let's try and keep this level of activity going as much as possible so we can have some good discussions.

[imkingdavid]

Gah, my browser crashed, and I lost my post. Let's try this again.

@tracker: so from what I gather, you agree with Lynch All Lurkers? If I'm wrong, let me know; if not, here's a question, then:
Given the choice between lynching a) a member who has been lurking pretty much all game, and b) a person that has been acting very scummy, but has been active all game, who are you more likely to vote for?

This is really just out of curiosity. I agree that Lurkers do not help the town, even if they have a pro-town role, so they should not be allowed into LyLo. However, I think that a better way eliminating lurkers is to just replace them, rather than policy lynch them. Of course, not to say that I won't lynch someone who has been lurking, but IMO if you waste your days policy lynching lurkers, you're going to run out of days, and chances are, scum will win.

But that's just my opinion. Anyone else is also free to comment on this, but please allow tracker to answer the question above before you do, since I want to know where he stands on this.

I'm thinking I phrased that wrong. I kind of meant what are your thoughts but concerns kind of works as well.

My thoughts about the game so far are that I like the way it started with questions instead of RVS. Although we definitely need to move beyond the game theory questions some time soon and start looking into each others' behaviors to find any scum tells we may have missed.

[imkingdavid]

*looks at watch*

Hmm, looks like it is about time for random accusation!

Eh, I must agree. We need to be posting more often than we are (myself included). If you can't find something productive to add to the current discussion, find something else to talk about. If we don't talk, we aren't anywhere closer to finding scum than we were at the start of the game. I'll try and be more active from here on out, and try to get at least one post in each day if I can.

RPG Twilight

From the very beginning (and yes, we are still at the beginning), twilight has been questioning a lot of things. Too many things, in my opinion. I understand that the point of the game is to question things, but some of these questions were a stretch. His posts are thick with paranoia for this stage of the game. He could be trying a little too hard to appear town.

Hmmm I'm not sure I see RPG as too inquisitive or paranoid. Some level of paranoia is going to be found in all players in this game, be they scum or town. Some paranoia, in fact, is good; otherwise you'll take everything you see at face value instead of looking into it to find scum slips or tells.

tracker

I've never played a game with the random voting, but i can understand why questions would be a better (and more interesting) idea. Even so, it would be a good tactic to appear friendly and get to know the town's mindset a bit.

Well, this can be considered WIFOM, but it is a valid thing to look for. However, I wouldn't suggest accusing someone of trying to "appear friendly" until they've done something unfriendly (or scummy) to invalidate their friendliness. Just my opinion.

He asks about the everyone's opinion on allowing a no lynch, but does not give his own until everyone else has given thiers. Then he goes out of his way to explain why a no lynch may be feasible.

That is a good point, but remember that there's always the chance of someone just mimicing his answer so that they don't have to actually think anything through.

He establishes that he is scatterbrained and doesn't have the best memory. A good excuse for a mistake later in the game.

I noticed that as well. That being said, I don't plan on giving anyone any extra leeway for being "scatterbrained". If you can't remember something, go back and look it up. Even if you accidentally misrepresent what someone says or what happened in the past, we don't know that it was an accident, and must assume that you did it on purpose. Which is a scum tell.

He questions twilight's use of the word agenda, as if he thought twilight was accusing him.

I didn't see any issue with the word agenda, but asking for clarification isn't necessarily a bad thing. I would rather ask for clarification than spend a lot of time typing a defense against an nonexistent attack.

He first advocates lynching lurkers as a policy, and then waters it down a bit with 'if i believe someone to be scum then they're lynch candidate #1'.

Although he supports lynch all lurkers policy, he has said that he is more likely to lynch a person that he finds to be doing scummy things. I don't find that scummy, although I am more ready to Replace all Lurkers than Lynch All Lurkers in the first place, and think we should only lynch the people who are acting scummy. *shrug*

----

As far as RPG vs. PE, I don't really have too much of an opinion, since I don't entirely understand what's going on there. But you guys are all welcome to comment on things that are going on if you see something fishy.

[imkingdavid]

What is your favorite role and why?

Mafia Goon; I enjoy a good challenge every once in a while.

What is your least favorite role and why?

Doctor/Healer; you get a small chance of protecting a person, but it only really works if you choose the same person that the mafia does on the same night. Which is pretty much just luck and good guessing. And you can't choose yourself. So yeah, worst role, imo, that I've been able to play so far.

Who is the

least

suspicious player so far?

I am choosing not to answer this for the following reason...
I don't want to give the scum knowledge of who I suspect the least, as doing so will let them know who not to try and push the lynch of. Also mafia often NK (night kill) the most pro-town players that they would have a hard time building support for a lynch of. So by answering this question, I would only be aiding the scum, which is something I do not wish to do.

Plus, there isn't very much info to go on right now, as we're still only on page 2, so it's difficult to decide. I suggest we give it a little more time, but that we also start asking some more game-specific questions, rather than general-mafia-theory questions.

Anyway, it's 1:30 AM, so I should be asleep. I'll try and post some good questions tomorrow to get some better discussion going.

[imkingdavid]

one question before I start,

Is it better to have one big wall of text,WOL, with everything I have to say at the moment, or a multitude of shorter posts each relating to one point?

Too many consecutive posts by one member clutters the thread and makes it unbearable, imo. I say get everything you need to say out in one go, and if you miss something, then you can go back an post once or twice as needed.

Who is the

least

suspicious player so far?

I am choosing not to answer this for the following reason...
I don't want to give the scum knowledge of who I suspect the least, as doing so will let them know who not to try and push the lynch of. Also mafia often NK (night kill) the most pro-town players that they would have a hard time building support for a lynch of. So by answering this question, I would only be aiding the scum, which is something I do not wish to do.

Plus, there isn't very much info to go on right now, as we're still only on page 2, so it's difficult to decide. I suggest we give it a little more time, but that we also start asking some more game-specific questions, rather than general-mafia-theory questions.

David - What is your opinion on "scumlists"?

For pretty much the same reason as I mentioned in the above quotation, a full every-player scum list is a bad idea, imo. If you find someone scummy, build a case on them and post it. Do more than one person, even. But if you go through each person just to say that you find them to be pro-town, you're wasting your time and giving scum a clearer picture of who to night kill and who not to push for a lynch.

-----

@mod: I think it's about time for prods on Canada, CommieX, and Neo-con John (and anyone else I missed, although I think everyone else has posted at least semi-recently). They haven't posted for quite some time. Thanks!

People, please realize that lurking does not help us at all. Please come and give your opinion in the discussion. Ask questions, answer those directed to you, build a case on someone, etc. The more people talk, the better chance we have of finding scum.

-------

@all: what do you guys think about tracker's continuous questioning? Do you guys see it as him trying to spark discussion or just trying to make it look like he's participating?

[imkingdavid]

And a question about the forums. On other forums there is a way to view all posts by a particular person in a certain topic. Is that possible here, or do we have to do it manually?

Yep, scroll down to the bottom under the quick reply box, where it says "Display posts from previous: [All Posts VOTE: ] by [All users VOTE: ] [Oldest First VOTE: ]" and select the "All Users" box. Now click anyone's username and hit "Go" That will show all of that user's posts in this thread in "iso" (aka isolation). btw, post numbers are not the same as post numbers when all posts by all users are shown, so be sure to specify if you mean, say... Player X's post #5, or post #5 of the whole thread).

[imkingdavid]

so unfortunate news.... I got hit with the flu bug and will be hopped up on drugs for the next couple of days... so I'll be V/LA till probably wedensday. Thanks.

Sorry to hear that. I hope you have a speedy recovery!

@neo - while you're right that there is a chance of one or even two of the 4/9 people you listed is scum, there's a larger chance that one or both are not being looked at right now. What's to say they're not both lurking? But if you've got suspicions of someone, go for them. Don't just look at the people that other people are looking at. Although it is sort of early in the game and some people haven't really posted much at all.

As far as RPG goes, you may have something there... I played with him in Newbie 826 and he played pretty much the same way that he is playing so far, and turned out to be scum.

Here's a weak vote based on meta to apply pressure.

vote: RPG*Twilight

btw,

Tracker seems very suspicious to me. From the beginning I saw the questions as good for the game but also as really good for tracker as it provides a great cover for scum. He gives the appearance of being pro-town while at the same time collecting valuable information on all of us and maybe even dividing us amongst ourselves. His second line of questions looked to me like someone trying to divert our attention away from the RPG/PE fiasco in PS# 29-33. The questions themselves just seem weak and quickly put together, What is your favorite role?, C'mon. I am not quite quite ready to vote but I am

Look at the other game that he was in the started with questions instead of RVS. A lot of the questions he's asked are basically copy/pasted from there. But... I don't know.
Right now RPG's my highest.

[imkingdavid]

This has already been touched on, but I still really don't like this for two reasons

1. Mafia is pretty much the game of paranoia

Would you agree or disagree that mafia has more to be paranoid about than a pro-town player? Based on that, does it make sense to assume that a player who is acting highly paranoid is likely scum?

and often times, from what I've seen, scum are heavy lurkers so you'll often hit scum

Eh? Not from my experience, but I have a more limited experience on this site.

In some cases, yes, scum do lurk more often than townies. However, it can go either way. I don't find lurking inherently scummy, even though I also don't find it pro-town in any respect. Which is why I am of the mindset that we should replace all lurkers, rather than lynch all lurkers.

KingDavid:

(and everyone else but IKD is the most experienced so I'm most interested in his opinion), What's your take on this?

however if you would rather let the scum have a free kill.... I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

I can't speak for RPG, but it kinda seems like you're strawman-izing his argument? (am I using that right?)

1) The wiki defines strawmanning as "mischaracterizing your opponent's position in order to present a weaker argument than they have actually given, thereby allowing you to defeat it." (Strawman - wiki link) So I guess this could be considered strawmanning, yes.
2) Please

please

label your quotations. Because just from reading this and the next quotation, it looks like you're attributing them to me and then accusing me of strawmanning. However, both this and the next are from post #37 by

tracker

. So to avoid confusion, add ="player" to the

tags.
3) As far as my opinion goes on this one, yes, he does seem to be putting words into RPG's mouth.

I would rather lynch scum that waste my days policy lynching lurkers.

Again, Strawman-izing (I think)? Everyone besides the scum wants to lynch scum. That's how we WIN.

Again, please label your quotes. However, this time, I don't see him as directly referring to any of RPG's quotes in his post. If I am missing something, let me know. But it looks like he's just stating his opinion here.

As far as RPG goes, you may have something there... I played with him in Newbie 826 and he played pretty much the same way that he is playing so far, and turned out to be scum.

As in throwing around a lot of questions in the beginning, or something else?

A couple of things, but I'm waiting to see more of his behavior this game before telling him what I'm looking for. Any scum can mask their play when they know what to/not to do if they try hard enough.

[imkingdavid]

EBWOP. lol just realized that I didn't label one of the quotes in the above post, and ironically, it's right after I get onto CX for it. for the sake of clarity, all quotes in the above post are by CommieX (CX).

[imkingdavid]

Would you agree or disagree that mafia has more to be paranoid about than a pro-town player?

Disagree, at least in the context of this game, as the mafia knows who is with them and who is against them whereas the town doesn't. But it's subjective.

Well, yes, that's the point of the game, that mafia know who each other are. However, because they are trying to blend in with the rest of the town, aren't they naturally going to be more paranoid about how they word things and such than, say, a vanilla townie? Pro-town players don't have as much at stake as anti-town players, because there's more of them, so there's more of a chance of a town win. Does that make sense?

2) Please please label your quotations. Because just from reading this and the next quotation, it looks like you're attributing them to me and then accusing me of strawmanning. However, both this and the next are from post #37 by tracker. So to avoid confusion, add ="player" to the

I apologize.

No worries. I was just confused as to whom you were referring exactly until i looked it up.

[imkingdavid]

This is really just out of curiosity. I agree that Lurkers do not help the town, even if they have a pro-town role, so they should not be allowed into LyLo. However, I think that a better way eliminating lurkers is to just replace them,

rather than policy lynch them. Of course, not to say that I won't lynch someone who has been lurking, but IMO if you waste your days policy lynching lurkers,

you're going to run out of days, and chances are, scum will win.

and as for the other case of strawmanning I was just using a phrase already out there.

Ahh, there it is. Thanks for finding that.

For the record, I wasn't implying that anyone wanted to "waste our days policy lynching lurkers". "you" is a generalization not directed at anyone. Maybe I should have specified that. My bad.

2)I didn't of it so much as an excuse for forgetting things in this game but as informing you guys that my schedule is hetic and I may have to priotize other things before this.

Would you mind rewording this? Doesn't make sense right now. maybe I'm too tired.

4)I don't see myself policy lynching lurker's, EVER, I never said that, IKD said that, I don't think I ever advocated policy lynching lurkers, I said that if we're close to the deadline (were No-Lynching is the set course of action)and the town is divided about wether Player A is scum or Player B is scum, and I don't agree with either of them I would rather lynch a lurker(who is at worst an anti-town player) than let our lynch slip away.

I said, and I quote,

so from what I gather, you agree with Lynch All Lurkers? If I'm wrong, let me know; if not, here's a question, then:

You never "let me know" that I was wrong, so I assumed you do agree with LAL. In which case, you would advocate (whether you say it or not) policy lynching lurkers, as that is the definition of LAL. Sorry if I misrepresented you. I wasn't necessarily trying to, but I was going with the information I had.

At this point, IKD has been very helpful as an IC. However, many have jumped on tracker and RPG as doing the 'townie thing' (getting conversation going and actively scumhunting respectively) and the most obvious one in this category is IKD. Still, the 'too townie' argument means little without scummy actions.

I don't see myself as having "jumped on tracker and RPG as doing the 'townie thing' (getting conversation going and actively scumhunting respectively)". If you see me doing that, you're welcome to provide examples. However, I my vote on RPG is based on meta from my previous game with him, not on him trying to stimulate discussion.

[imkingdavid]

Alright, last post before bed. I hope.
(btw all quotes in this post are of tracker, just in case I fail to label any.)

V/LA - That is when you know that your going to be gone so you announce it in the thread ahead of time. I don't know what it stands for but thats how it's used.

^this, except V/LA =

V

acation/

L

imited

A

ccess.

(all following quotes are from tracker):

I guess if i had to take a stance on it I would have to say I would be more towards replace all lurkers than lynch all lurkers, sorry for not answering/clarifying that before.

IKD if there was a deadline approaching and you didn't think the town concrete a lynch on anybody,(and you didn't agree with the case on either of the top lynch canidates) would you rather try and lynch a lurker, jump on one of the other wagons and hope for the best, or what?

I guess nearing a lynch in the given scenario with no hope of a deadline extension to allow a replacement for a lurker time to give their thoughts, I would vote toward a lurker. Although, I would in any other case try to build a case on someone that has something to be built on, instead of just resorting to a lurker. But in the scenario you gave, I would opt for oa lurker.

Also IDK, I know that you weren't accusing me of wanting to policy lynch lurkers it was that other's were using that as an example in an attack against me when i didn't even coin the phrase. I figured that I should clarify that.

Ah, ok, thanks for clarification.

What's IMO?

IMO =

I

n

M

y

O

pinion.
Also commonly used is IMHO, which is "in my humble opinion".

[imkingdavid]

Make sure you have " around the username or it won't show properly. ANd make sure you have both a [quote*] and a [/quote] (without the *).

[imkingdavid]

btw, I haven't flaked. Just been really busy. I'll try and have a post up tonight.

[imkingdavid]

Me? I have no big findings. I only know what I said in my posts. I suspect a bit of tracker, because of his questioning, and, coincidently (sp?), of CommieX, for his presure on tracker.

About the rest, the waters are still very muddy. Maybe tomorrow they'le be clearer

Really? Is that all you have to say? And I agree with Canada -- that last line looks like just an excuse to stay out of it even longer. Please try to actively participate in some scum hunting. It doesn't have to be a long post, but you need to show that you're actually participating, and not just active lurking.

Vote: TF

until you post some good content.


more to come soon...

[imkingdavid]

IKD, you ninja'd me on the explanation

eh?

@tracker: I'd like to see what great "findings" you came up with so early in the game. You've been hinting at them quite often, so they should be good, eh?

Poorly worded sentence on my part. I didn't think that. I meant some are looking at those two for the 'too townie' reason, while they haven't considered you as being 'too townie' for being helpful. Just pointing out inconsistencies.

Ah, I guess I misread your sentence then. Just one thing to realize is that, as IC, it's my responsibility to be helpful, although that will diminish as the game progresses.
And really the only reason to describe someone as "too townie" or "too helpful" is if that is all they are doing (they are only trying to be nice and helpful and aren't actively scum hunting).

That is true, we do have some previous experience. But you have me completely baffled by this. Did I really play the same way in that game as in this?

To a point, yes, from what I remember. I'll go back and read through it again and then read through this one when I have the time.

I still have that game on my watched topics, and I re-read all of what I wrote. I got prodded, had short sentences,

didnt even talk to my scum-buddy (who got killed in D1, which I wasnt entirely active on.) Which, if you'll see, is exactly how i'm not playing now.

So are you admitting to talking to your scum buddy this time around?

So where in that game is there really a whole lot of similarities to this one? That being my first mafia game, and being scum, was pretty unnerving. If anything, David, i'm playing completely opposite, i'm actually scumhunting. This makes me pretty weary of you, trying to use my meta that is the complete antithesis of what i'm playing now, to make your case. And that, and only that, is the reason i'm highest on your list? Again, baffling.

To be entirely truthful, it is mostly instinctual gut feelings based on what I remember from your meta. like I said above, I'll take some time to actually compare the two games. Sorry if it's a null tell. But it did get some discussion, did it not?

[imkingdavid]

Alright, reading back you are correct. I guess I was thinking about someone else. I really need to do my research before accusing someone of something. I will

unvote

now and I'm awaiting feedback from Gayle and CommieX.

[imkingdavid]

To be entirely truthful, it is mostly instinctual gut feelings based on what I remember from your meta. like I said above, I'll take some time to actually compare the two games. Sorry if it's a null tell. But it did get some discussion, did it not?

So you admit to making a hasty vote, but then it almost seems like you try to justify it by saying it got discussion?

Yep.

[imkingdavid]

Alright, reading back you are correct. I guess I was thinking about someone else. I really need to do my research before accusing someone of something. I will

unvote

now and I'm awaiting feedback from Gayle and CommieX.

Er, you unvoted Toon Fighter because of the misconception? Did you forget you switched your vote off RPG?

And so I did. Nice catch.

I really should be paying more attention. My bad guys.

reinstate

vote: TF

[imkingdavid]

I did not like how quick

imkingdavid

was to cast votes for RPG and then Toon Fighter. He also completely forgot that he voted for Toon Fighter, and later chose to reinstate this vote even though he didn't even remember it previously.

Yeah, wasn't really paying attention. They had kept pressing the issue despite me having moved my vote so I forgot that I even moved it. And really my current vote is just to get TF talking (a pressure vote, really). His most recent post doesn't reflect someone who has been actively reading the thread, from what I can tell.

BTW, for what it's worth, here's some random statistics I noticed:
Total posts (currently): 108 (including Elmo's)
Posts per player:
TF - 4
Neo - 6
CX - 6
Gayle - 9
Tracker - 12
Canada - 12
RPG - 14
PE - 14
IKD - 25

Either I need to shut up more, or some of you guys need to be posting a lot more. Especially those of you near the start of the list.

[imkingdavid]

The issue was pressed because RPG thought he was being mis-repped. I felt it necessary to check it out for myself.

Understood.

What about TF's most recent post makes you think he has been not checking up on the thread? CommieX has been pressuring tracker. Tracker has garnered suspicion in many eyes. That seemed to have been occurring when he posted.

Here is TF's latest post:

Me? I have no big findings. I only know what I said in my posts. I suspect a bit of tracker, because of his questioning, and, coincidently (sp?), of CommieX, for his presure on tracker.

About the rest, the waters are still very muddy. Maybe tomorrow they'le be clearer

No attempt to scum hunt, and a hint that he might post "tomorrow". This post was on Thursday, so "tomorrow" would have been Friday. It's Sunday now. And he doesn't build onto anything he might have already said.

He says that "I only know what I said on my posts". He only has 4 posts including the one quoted. So that right there hints that he hasn't even been reading the thread. Otherwise, he would know what other people said in their posts. And as I said when I first voted for him, that last sentence seems like its just an excuse to lurk some more; his whole post seems like something to keep him from being replaced with out him having to actually give any thoughts.

The thoughts he did give (on tracker and commie) had already been given by others, so he just parroted those. And if he wasn't parroting, he should have expanded on those lines to show his thought process.

Tracker has garnered suspicion in many eyes. That seemed to have been occurring when he posted.

Exactly. All he had to do was check the thread, see who was most suspicious to everyone else in the most recent posts, and basically copy/paste whatever the issue was.

That's why my vote's on him. I'm not saying that I want to lynch him for lurking, as I understand that I have been advocating the opposite this whole game, and in a few others. My vote on him is at most a pressure vote. Many times, new players get scared when they get a vote on them, so they will be more likely to post when they see it.

-----

On the other hand, tracker promised his analysis "Sat evening, sparing unforceable circumstances". And it's Sunday. So I expect it today, since you've promised it since about thursday evening, so you must have been near completion then if you could promise it then. If not, I might even be willing to change my vote. But we'll see about that.

[imkingdavid]

Oh, and about the post count, (

which this post must make me look like I'm padding my own... stupid after-thoughts

) I'm surprised we have so few after 10 days... including at myself.

(bold added)
After thoughts are ok; a lot of my posts are after thoughts and EBWOPs. But yeah, in 11 days, I'm averaging about 2 posts per day, if not more, while a lot of you are averaging 1 or less posts per day.
I'm not encouraging you guys to spam the thread or anything, and if you can't find time to post that much every day, it's not the end of the world; you aren't required to post every day by the moderator either. What I would like, though, is a bit more activity from the current level of activity, if at all possible.

[imkingdavid]

Let's tackle this in order, shall we?

Eh? Why would you change your vote to Tracker for stalling, when Toon Fighter is obviously a bigger culprit of this?

...I didn't change my vote. I merely said I would consider it. Mostly it would have been if he didn't have something out in a reasonable amount of time, but even then I wasn't planning on moving my vote until TF posted.
But now they both have, so null point.

I know I have been lurking a lot, but I have read the topic. I just don't know what to post.

Post anything, post your thoughts on what's going on, point out anything interesting you see in someone else's post or play style or vote habits, or anything really. Just try and contribute and be active.

It seems even more suspicious. he is trying to divert attentions from himself and pointing at the most suspicios people at the time. And note, he reinstated his accusations on tracker the previous post, and now, instead of trying to convert IKD, he attacked me instead.

I don't see where he really has that much attention on himself, except a few passing remarks (if there's more than that, feel free to point it out), so I'm not sure he'd be trying to divert attention from himself. And what's this about trying to "convert IKD"?

About IKD, he seems very incongruent on his votes and accusations. He voted RPG, chenged his vote to me, the he forgot he had voted for me and unvoted, then paltryexcuse reminded him of that and he voted for me again, and now he seems on the verge of voting tracker. Those are a lot of suspect changes...

Nope, I was just considering voting tracker, as I said above; I never voted him. And I see 1 voting change (from RPG to you), not a "lot of suspect changes". If you find the one voting change suspect simply because I admittedly forgot about changing my vote in light of the current discussion, then so be it. But don't exaggerate my play to build your case.

Secondly, rampant suspect change can be scummy I believe. It makes the poster look as though they are searching for the town-consensus rather than scum (as town should not be afraid of being wrong per se, but afraid of not doing anything). However, a willingness to accept you have the wrong person (open-mindedness) is important.

Does it really look like I'm searching for town consensus? I've only changed my vote once. I voted RPG and then when it was pointed out to me that I had my facts wrong and I looked and agree with that, I switched my vote as a pressure vote to get TF talking. That's the only change I made in my vote. Other than that, I mentioned consideration of voting tracker based off of him taking longer than he had said he would to post. So... where do you see these "rampant suspect changes"?

The fact that tracker's stalling is small compared to my stalling may be true, but that was not the only thing that made him suspicious. It is another thing that makes him suspicious.

Care to share what that "another thing" is?

IKD

More helpful than other IC's, coins phrase later used against tracker, prods galore, 1 long post rather than 2-3 shorter, overuses findings, as with the rest, votes RPG, Votes TF w/o unvoting RPG, unvotes, Votes TF. Total posts page, IDK might have the biggest post count but who has the most content in their posts? I think the post count is being overplayed a little bit.

btw, unvoting is not required, so what's the deal about "votes TF w/o unvoting RPG"? Yes, I did that, but so what?
I was just pointing out the post count thing. Just put things into perspective, really. Use it how you like, or don't use it, I don't care. I was just putting out the info in case anyone else founded it useful.

"I noticed that as well. That being said, I don't plan on giving anyone any extra leeway for being "scatterbrained". If you can't remember something, go back and look it up. Even if you accidentally misrepresent what someone says or what happened in the past, we don't know that it was an accident, and must assume that you did it on purpose. Which is a scum tell.” - IKD


Interesting.

Ok?

I agree. Not so much about the forgetting where his vote was, we all make mistakes, but still.

[IC time]Yes, I have made plenty of similar and even some worse stupid mistakes as town on this site. But you can't just put aside all things like this as town mistakes. Yes, we all make mistakes, but don't just excuse things because of it. Just saying...[/IC time]

Canada- total posts – 7

nope, try again. hint, it rhymes with bwelve.

CommieX – Total posts – 4

again... nope. When did you start working on this post?

Anyway, this is enough for one post. If I see anything else that needs commenting on, I'll do it later.

For now,

unvote

And,

Mod: I

like

do not like kittens! And please prod Neo, as he hasn't posted since Thursday.

[imkingdavid]

Ahh, misunderstanding there on my part I guess. The quote you have from TF that precedes your paragraph that begins with "Secondly, rampant..." was about me, so I figured you were referring to me when you said "rampant suspect changes". My apologies for the misunderstanding.

Anyway, I'm off to bed.

[imkingdavid]

What I think, from my newbie prespective, is that IKD and tracker are scum, and IKD threatned to vote tracker to seem less suspicious (and it could trigger another vote or two on him, lynching him). tracker accused IKD for similar reasons, and didn't vote for him for the same reason. [Also, IKD ignored RPG's post completely (possible ninja, looking at the time they were posted)]

1) If you have any evidence besides a hunch "from [your] newbie perspective", then please, by all means, enlighten us. That entire paragraph and highly speculative, and reeks of WIFOM.
2) Which of RPG's posts did I ignore? His most recent was directed at tracker, so there was nothing really for me to comment on.
3) Care to clarify what you mean by this:

tracker accused IKD for similar reasons, and didn't vote for him for the same reason.

@ PE: you may have something; those are some good points. But let's wait and see if he picks up his prod, and if not, what his replacement has to say.

[imkingdavid]

Post Counts

The post count was a personal note to me moreso than the town, I had planned on deleting it but rushed and forgot it in the end. IKD, I'm not saying that we should disregard your post count, just take it with a grain of salt, as it's content versus however many posts you have that I personally find more beneficial.

That makes sense. Quality is always more important than Quanity. But without much quantity, there's nothing to call quality. If you get what I mean.
In any case, it's a bit harder to try and scum hunt when a lot of the people have only 6 or 7 posts total than if everyone is actively participating.

I will review, RPG, Gayle, IKD, John, and TF over the course of this week, and will post a case or another review of each on the upcoming days, I'm hoping to do one a day every day until I finish. Probably start with TF tommorow, I'm really runnning out of time now.

Sounds good.

I'm sorry IKD, I reviewed this mod's rules and it's true that you don't have to unvote before vote switching, I forgot that, and apologize.

No worries, it's a trivial matter, really, as far as scum hunting goes.

[imkingdavid]

I'm not liking Neo's response to tracker's post. Rather than trying to refute what tracker said, he attacked tracker. And, like PE said, he never defended himself against PE's case either, from what I can tell.

I'm going to look back at Neo's posts and see if I come up with anything.

sidenote: btw, I may not be able to post tomorrow. I will if I can, but it probably won't be long if any. Today was really busy and I'm barely able to post as it is. Sorry for the inactivity. It should even out as the week progresses.

[imkingdavid]

@ elmo: no worries, we all make mistakes.

@ Gayle: even still, just post to let us know you're here. Or better yet, actively contribute and show your thoughts. Even if it does mirror what someone else has already said, it's not helpful at all to the rest of the town for you to just sit and watch.

I have a feeling that NCJ isn't about to post anything today; he seems to have these spurts where he posts, and then he suddenly stops for a couple of days or longer. If he doesn't have a post up with some decent analysis some time soon, he's got my vote. He is looking very scummy currently. While I don't like to lynch lurkers on policy, as we have discussed, I don't see him as lurking as much as I see him trying to prolong having to respond to anything.

It appears to me as if, assuming he is scum and tracker is town, he put tracker at L-1 in hopes that someone would quick hammer and he would escape suspicion until Day 2. But we still have a good amount of time until deadline and discussion is still going.

As far as my opinion of his posts, he doesn't seem to be defending himself much at all. He's ignoring the cases presented against him, for the most part, and then goes on the offensive and votes tracker (putting him at L-1).

Btw, about post #140 where he votes tracker, his vote is based on, from what I can tell:
1) tracker voting him after PE else already FOS's him
2) tracker counting incorrectly for whatever reason

I'm not liking those reasons. Plus, he accuses PE of being trackers "reputed partner in crime" without any explanation there.

As a side note, I, by policy, do not like to try and look for scum partners and links between people until we know who one of the scum is. In order to not detract from the current discussion, I will refrain from posting why, unless someone doesn't understand how it can be a bad thing. On the other hand, if you disagree, you're welcome to share your own reasoning as well. But lets try to keep game theory discussion at a minimum. I simply brought this up because the idea was present in NCJ's post.

[imkingdavid]

Alright, It's officially been 48 hours since NCJ's most recent post. With that, I will

Vote: NCJ

in hopes that being at L-2 will pressure him into posting so that we can get as much activity and information as possible before the deadline.
However, I am leaning toward a NCJ lynch at the moment based on not only what other people have laid out in their posts, but also, as I said in post 156, his response to other peoples' posts and cases against him.
Unless he can post a decent response, my vote is staying on him.

[imkingdavid]

I wanted to hammer tracker. tracker did another one of his 'will post later' posts, so I waited. When I checked the thread again I saw that I was being replaced, and wondered if my vote would even count and sent a pm to Elmo. After that was cleared up, I checked the thread and IKD had posted the above, and I couldn't exactly just hammer after what he posted, could I?

You're free to do what you want. If you feel that it's a good time to hammer, do so. I was just pointing out the amount of time we had left.

[imkingdavid]

You're free to do what you want. If you feel that it's a good time to hammer, do so. I was just pointing out the amount of time we had left.

Yeah, I'm just saying it didn't seem like a good idea to hammer immediately after someone points out we still have plenty of time.

Why did you want to hammer tracker, Gayle? The last time I saw reasons from you to lynch tracker was very early in the day.

At that time, I didn't think of anyone as outright scum, but I had more confidence in tracker being scum than anyone else, he was one away from lynch, and truthfully, I wanted the day to end. I just don't get tracker in general, and much of what he says doesn't make any sense to me. It was probably based more on feeling rather than fact.

That all said, I would not vote for tracker now. Re-reading the last two pages and tracker's posts, my suspicions have changed.

This post sounds like a lot of "I don't really care much about who gets lynched, I just want the day to end, but I don't want to draw attention to myself by ending after someone points out that it might not be beneficial to do so." Which is definitely NOT pro-town.
At best with all this you've struck up more discussion, which is good.

btw,

That all said, I would not vote for tracker now. Re-reading the last two pages and tracker's posts, my suspicions have changed.

That is why it is good to re-read instead of just hammering to end the day. BTW, this is post 172. The following is post 166:

I mean I was a going to hammer tracker, but IKD suggested that we still have a week and so there is no reason to rush it. I don't think much of the case against NCJ, and am still leaning towards lynching tracker.

What changed between 166 to 172? You seem to be in support for a tracker lynch but suddenly your suspicions have changed. Who have they changed to, then, and would you like to share?

I'm not liking this recent behavior at all.

FoS: Gayle

[imkingdavid]

Hey guys, sorry I didn't post recently; been bogged down with pre-Thanksgiving break homework that needs to be done. I'll try and answer a bulk of the questions I may have missed tomorrow.

But to answer Toon Fighter on a couple of things in his most recent post:

If you are so certain he is scum, maybe we should be looking into his supposed partner.

1) First of all, I say no to looking for scum partners at this point. I may have already said this in this game, or I might be thinking of another game, but it can only hurt the town to focus on who might be the partner of someone that might be scum. Since we have no knowledge of who one scum is, it doesn't help to look for links to tie the two together.
2) Who is this ambiguous "you"? "If

you

are so certain..." If you think otherwise, feel free to try and refute it. The way you worded it looks sounds like you're trying to reluctantly go along with people who find him scummy.

3)

IKD changed suspects again. Just noticing it.

?
I voiced a Finger of Suspicion on Gayle, but my vote is still on NCJ. At what point did I change suspects?
Is it illegal now to have more than one person under your radar? Truthfully, I am suspicious of everyone here, and you should be as well. The fact that I don't have an FoS on everyone just shows that some are more suspicious than others to me.
A vote doesn't tie you to only being suspicious to that person; you can and should look at others at the same time.

Ok,

@mod: NCJ and CommieX haven't posted. Because of the timing of the deadline, could we possibly get an extension if, either they do respond before deadline, or they get replaced before deadline?

@All: Ok, at this point it looks like it's down to tracker or NCJ for a lynch unless we have a last minute wagon in the next few days. Or if we don't come to an agreement, it's No Lynch. So everyone needs to make a decision before deadline or we'll basically waste a day.

[imkingdavid]

Well, that's the hammer, and now we wait. BTW, discussion can continue up until the mod posts the death scene.

As a general tip for all, but geared towards newer players, once the mod posts the death scene and reveals the role of the lynchee, go back and read back through the thread with this new knowledge. It will help when discussion picks back up on Day 2.

[imkingdavid]

Ok now, where were we before the day ended? Oh yes, I was working on typing up a post. Here it is...

@TF: here's what I've done so far (correct me if I'm wrong):
Votes: vote RPG on admittedly inaccurate charges, vote TF for pressure, re-vote TF by accident, vote NCJ for pretty much everything above
FoS/Stated Suspicion: FoS tracker, FoS gayle

Unless I missed anything. Having 3 different votes and 2 different FoS's by page 8 is hardly a reason for suspicion. It shows that I'm looking around and weighing possible options. If I had, say, 5 or 6 different baseless votes by now and was throwing suspicion at every person without much consistency, then there might be a cause of concern.

Anyway, at this point, I'm suspicious of Gayle, as I stated before the end of day 1, and still for the same reasons. Also, Canada and CommieX need to post or be replaced. It's been a while since we've heard from either of them, and it's not helpful at all to have absent players in a game with only (now) 7 people.

[imkingdavid]

I'll echo others in saying that you can't rule out people just because they were or weren't on NCJ's wagon. There's always the possibility of bussing, no matter how likely or unlikely it may seem.
Yes, analyzing lynching wagon data can be helpful, but it should not be made the basis of a case against someone.

Anything can be a reason for suspicion. Voting for so many different people can be found suspicious. Especially when you do such a thing as forget who you voted for.

I see your point, and I understand that you can't always just throw away something that looks suspicious. I'm just saying that I don't feel that I have been changing suspects that often in relation to other people, nor do I feel that I have changed suspects more often than is acceptable. If you feel different, so be it.

Please tell me exactly what you are suspicious of that I have yet to addressed.

It's not whether or not you address suspicions, it's whether or not I still find you scummy for it.

Anyway, as a summary:
-You seemed overeager to stay on everyone else's good side (you changed your mind on hammering simply because I commented on how it might not be a good idea. I still feel that if you felt strongly enough to hammer before I posted, you should have felt strongly enough after I posted. I was simply trying to make sure people knew how much time was left.)
-Your suspicions on tracker flip flopped from one post to the next. You said who they changed to (myself, PE and ncj), but I don't see where you said why or how you changed your suspicions so quickly.
-Now it's day 2 and you immediately drop all suspicions of the previous day (namely on myself and PE), since "PE started the wagon on NCJ" and "for now I suspect that IKD is town". And you accuse me of changing suspicions a lot?

EBWO-Looking at the thread: I just noticed that PE posted the same thing as my third point. I hadn't noticed that post until just now. So please answer to that at least.

@mod: please replace CommieX

[imkingdavid]

Alright, that' makes sense. You seem to be answering questions without getting overly defensive in your tone. I'll look into TF in a while.

[imkingdavid]

Wow, that's a lot of posts.

Just for the record, I'm really not liking Hercule's reasoning (although I haven't yet read the latest posts; I'm just posting this to let you know I'm here and trying to work on this right now). I'll have my response to him in a bit. Of course it will take longer if you guys keep posting this quickly.

[imkingdavid]

Alright, I haven't been following the latest conversation. In fact, my parents made me clean up around the house because we have company coming over. So I haven't been able to do much of anything yet. I'll do it later tonight. But for now, since I am really not liking what I see of Hercule, I'll do a

preliminary FoS: Hercule

that may be upgrade to a vote once I finish my analysis.

Anyway, no time for much more than this right now, sorry. I'll be back later tonight.

[imkingdavid]

Ok, sorry I lied about being back that night. Got overly busy with a last minute project that came up and now I am just able to think about this.

I'll get started by responded to the earlier posts and then end up with the more recent.

Therefore, either CommieX or Toon Fighter is the remaining mafia member. I'm more willing to go with Toon Fighter, but I could be wrong. Eh bien monami, I'd say we need to focus on those two.

I don't like the logic used to come to this conclusion. You're saying that just because they didn't vote for him, they are the scum. But what makes you so sure that no one was bussing him?

So I believe that if the mafia could have gotten a fifth vote against Tracker, they would. So why didn't they? Because they already had 2 votes against him.

Or because (assuming tracker is town for this) they know that tracker is town and neo is scum and do not want to vote for tracker because by hammering tracker, they place suspicion on themselves, therefore having both scum in the spotlight.

Also, even if you interpret that post as me defending NCJ, why would I do that if I knew he was scum? I would know that, if he were lynched, he would be outed, and I would be looking suspicious if I defended him (however, this can be seen as WIFOM, and is not a good defense strategy).

Yep, WIFOM, but I see your point.

Everyone, have you read the Sherlock Holmes canon?
Yes, this is important. Believe me, it could turn the game around depending on your answer. I know how random this sounds, but this will be important later. I'm not even joking.

Nope, never read it, sorry. What does it have to do with anything? Well, I guess I'll figure that out by reading on, eh?

Interesting. Sounds like our good friend the cop should start investigating then, shouldn't he?

Who is the cop? If he claims to be the cop, and the doctor keeps protecting him, we can pretty much nuke the entire mafia. Step up Mr.Cop.

Red flag!

No. "Mr. Cop" should NOT step up. This is a prime example of what we in the business call role-fishing; aka trying to get people with a power role to roleclaim. This only can help scum know who the cop is and night kill him.
The only way I could see this possibly working is if he has a guilty, because then we can lynch the person he has a guilty on and then lynch him if he's wrong.
Of course now we're assuming we even have a cop. We currently know nothing about the current setup. So rather than rolefish, how about we scum hunt?

That right there should get my vote, but I'll continue reading and see what happened next.

I know the real cop won't claim to be the cop. It would be pointless. Anyone who claimed to be the cop at this moment would be trying to take advantage of the position to be above suspicion, therefore making him the most suspicious person.

...Of course since you two were so quick to point out why claiming cop isn't a good idea, I think the hidden mafia guy isn't going to be claiming cop anytime soon.

So why are you explaining your entire plan? In any case, with 1 mafia member left, it would be completely idiotic for them to claim cop, especially this early in the game. Possibly in LyLo, but that would be a large risk too.

D) I found Canada scummy... His was wishy-washy scum behaviour, now yours is just a new type.

^this.

I don't know about that one. Why is it a scumtell to congratulate town on finding mafia? I probably would have done the same thing if I was the one who replaced into the game.

Actually it is considered a scum tell by many on this site because its normally either mafia or a town power role that is just trying too hard to blend in. Best to just keep moving than focus on the past really.

TBH, I agree with much of the case that PaltryExcuse has brought. Not to piggy back or anything, but I'm going go ahead and

Vote: Hercule

.

IKD's review is coming thanks for being patient, I'm sorry for the delay.

K, I finished rereading IKDs, well I finished yesterday and spent most of today thinking about it and reread it again tonight, IKD's posts are radiating something and I determine what or anything concrete to use as a base for figuring out IKD's alignment.

Really? You spent quite a while telling us it was coming, and then you have a sentence about being unsure? Come on...

Tracker: I want to believe he is town, but something is just giving me a scum alarm in my brain right now.... too be watched
Gayle: Veryyyyyyyy Scum.. I put my 5 dollars on him being one of the scum.
HP: TOWN... I don't see the case against him, the only bad thing is he is making a newbie mistake of role fishing.
IC: he is a town alligned player.
Paltry: Third Scum
RPG: Confirmed Town
Toon Fighter: Town

Welcome to MS and thanks for joining the game (and to you to, Hercule, not trying to make you feel unwelcome either).

Anyway, next time please provide more reasoning than just the end result. Let us know how you came to your conclusions. Otherwise, for all we know, you are just trying to put out your suspicions based on other peoples' posts.

Also, it's generally not a good idea to post who you think is obvious town. Instead, you should post only who you think is scum.

So given that, I would like to see reasoning behind your suspicions of those whom you labelled as scum. And keep in mind that there are only 2 scum (and now only 1) in this game, so there's no "3rd scum".

Who is IC?

I'm the IC player in this game; I think that's what he meant.

@SP: It's less confusing if you refer to me as IKD or something like everyone else does. That way there's no questions like this one.

[imkingdavid]

Since, there is only one scum left if the cop has a guilty we have him tell us, and we lynch that person game over.
Sounds like a plan.....

...

The cop would have claimed by now if that was the case.

^this.

And like I said in my post above yours:

So rather than rolefish, how about we scum hunt?

In my opinion, at this point Hercule is the best candidate for a lynch, simply because of the things myself and others have outlined above.

However, PE is right, we should wait for tracker to stop stalling and contribute before we end the day again.

[imkingdavid]

Ok, something's not sitting right with me about SirPent's alleged investigation results. The way he has behaved so far does not look like the behavior that is natural for a cop to do, and I'm not buying that Elmo only just sent him any results from any previous investigations. That would have been handled when the role PM was sent, as others have pointed out.

In any case, my idea of dealing with this is we will have to lynch Gayle and then depending on the outcome, lynch SirPent. If we lynch Gayle and he flips scum we win. If he flips town, we lynch SirPent. Then he flips scum and we win. Win-Win situation. Does that make sense?

So I'm going to go ahead and change my vote (

Vote: Gayle

) but I am still awaiting a response from Hercule (so don't think you're getting off easy).

@IKD: i know I led up to it, I had thought I had found something but it wasn't what I thought it was when subjected to heavy scrutinizing. I always try and keep the ICs under a close watch as they lead most the newbie games I've seen and your playstyle seemed weird but it's inconclusive and a null-tell as far as I can tell.

OK, thanks for the response.

[imkingdavid]

-EBWOP-

@Gayle I did read the thread, and putting HP at L-1 would see who would go for the quick hammer. You are so scum.

You expect mafia to quick hammer when it's down to one? On day 2? Even a newbie mafia should be smart enough not to do that.

Also, besides your alleged guilty on Gayle, what do you see about him that is scummy?

Plus Gayle is at L-1, so please do not hammer for a while until we can solidify our game-plan given the current events.

[imkingdavid]

Ok. I'd like to apologize first of all for acting so quickly yesterday. I now realize that the better course of action would have been to lynch SP and then based on that, decide whether or not to lynch Gayle. Now I feel as if we wasted a lynch, and I'm partly to blame. However, I was not expecting Gayle to self hammer, and I had warned against anyone hammering yet. That being said, I would still like that post from HP. He has had the extra time provided by the Night, so there is no excuse.

As far as SP is concerned, here's my take on it. It would be complete idiocy to make such a claim that early on in the game as scum. On the same token, it would but just as stupid to make the claim as cop, especially since we just found out that he was lying if he was either scum or cop. So either he just doesn't care about the game and is screwing us over to give the scum an easy win, or he's being overly scummy on purpose to make us think he's not scum... basically WIFOM.

In any case, I am inclined to go along with the Lynch All Liars idea. However keep in mind that if we don't catch scum today, it's LyLo tomorrow.

Before we start throwing votes around (since it's 3 to lynch now) we should hear from some of the less active players.

You are contradicting your statement number 1, the correct option is lynching of IKD,

vote ikd

And what are you basing your vote on?

[imkingdavid]

I had just made that based on your overall quick vote yesterday. I think our scum lies within the lurkers. Cough Tracker Cough.....

unvote vote tracker

So as soon as I question your vote, you change your mind? Also, please post some sort of reasoning beyond a one-liner when you vote. Otherwise, it looks like you're just randomly choosing someone.

Anyway...

mod: please prod and/or replace Hercule Point.

He hasn't posted since the 29th of November... MORE than a week ago!

Also, please prod tracker, who hasn't posted since last Wednesday.

Thanks.

[imkingdavid]

@mod:

Ok, thanks. I didn't realize the prod time reset overnight.

Guys, we need to try and be more active than this. We can't win if we don't scum hunt and we can't scum hunt if we don't post. If you can't find anything to post, just post your thoughts.

[imkingdavid]

I think it's pretty safe to say that Hercule isn't coming back. It's been a week and a half.

@mod:

please check for a replacement for him. there's only 5 people alive in the game right now so we can't afford to have someone AWOL.

@SirPent: how do you explain your actions from yesterday? Are you trying to justify it by saying you lied simply because you didn't like Gayle? Please explain.

[imkingdavid]

Careful, guys, it's 3 to lynch and SP is at L-1.

I am tempted to hammer as it is, but given that the day is only just beginning and we need to wait for a HP replacement (and I'd like to hear his/her take on things before we move on), I will not do so.

In any case, Lying = scummy. I personally do not wish to enter LyLo (if we don't nab scum this time) someone who is going to lie to us, since we would not know whether or not he is telling the truth. Only scum have a reason to lie; townspeople should not lie because it only can hurt the town in the long run.

Further more, here is a quote from the Lynch All Liars wiki page:

In order to encourage *good* play, the policy should be: Lynch anyone caught in a lie. They are most likely Scum, and if they aren't, then lynching them might teach them that they should not lie.

You lie and get caught, you die. Enough said.

But like I said, I would like to see some more discussion before the day ends, so I would rather no one hammers yet.

Also,

the real cop or doctor should claim at this point

no. stop rolefishing. Besides, how do you know we have either one? Or how do you know we don't have both? I count this not only as rolefishing but also as setup speculation.

If

we have a cop, don't role claim unless you have a definite guilty on someone. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut or it might lose the game for us.

If

we have a doctor, don't role claim. It can't end good.

No, if the doctor/cop claims then we have 4 people to choose from. Since, I know that I am vanilla townie, I now have three people to pick from it would easily determine who is the last mafia.

And what's your plan of action for when you get down to 3 people? Just guess and hope you're correct? Because so far that is what you've been doing, and from experience, I can tell you that does not work very well.

[imkingdavid]

Hello, qax42. Please post your thoughts some time soon. Thanks, elmo for finding a replacement, and thanks qax42 for joining.

[imkingdavid]

no you lynch one and lynch another the next day,

And if you're wrong both times?

Let's think this through. If we don't lynch scum today, assuming no doctor, the next day is Lylo (lynch or lose). If we don't lynch scum that day, we lose.

So I don't really think that guessing twice based on a role claim is a good idea. We've already seen one person lie about a role claim and it didn't help us, so I can't see another one helping.

[imkingdavid]

Responses in green.

Hello! Analysis is ready—I was almost through reading before I got the confirmation PM because the game was really interesting.

@

Town

:

Vote: imkingdavid

Someone please unvote SirPent because imkingdavid will hammer and SirPent will flip town.

Actually, everyone had had ample opportunity, including myself, to hammer and haven't. I am trying to keep the day going instead of end discussion. Also, it's not only in my power to hammer.

Long WoT approaching. There's a TL;DR at the bottom for the uninterested.To clarify, when I say "town" I mean the general populace of the proverbial town, with no allusions to role or alignment.

I claim Cop. I get one investigation a night, am sane and can be roleblocked. I'm not 100% sure if that ensures a mafia roleblocker or not. Mod-confirmed sanity check.

Only way to confirm a roleblocker is to lynch one. Mods usually like to cover all their bases whether or not there actually is a certain role.

N1 Canada investigated tracker, who is confirmed town, but nothing on his role. N2 Hercule Poirot never submitted an action, so the Mod randomly picked imkingdavid and returned a positive result.

And why should we believe you? We already see what happened last time we listened to a claimed cop.

I don't necessarily expect anyone to believe me after the shit storm that was SirPent's behavior since replacing in, so it's a good thing that imkingdavid was my number one scum candidate since the early pages. Here is a breakdown of his scummiest posts:

Post numbers in this format: (actual)/(isolation)

#53/11: Votes RPG based on some very questionable meta. Self-proclaimed weak and unnecessary vote—FoS would have sufficed on such a weak argument.

Nothing came of the vote, and discussion started. FoS would not have initiated any discussion at all. Are you pro or anti-discussion?

#83/19: Votes Toon Fighter for lurking. Another weak vote.

Pressure votes encourage activity. I did not foresee a lynch at that time, so there was no cause for concern. Had a wagon built up based on his inactivity, I would have unvoted, simply because I am against Lynch All Lurkers.

#84/20:

So are you admitting to talking to your scum buddy this time around?

That is

extremely

scummy. Holy crap. The line of logic is absolutely flawed, and as it stands that is just putting words in RPG's mouth. Furthermore, any experienced played should know this.

I was clarifying his wording in his post.

This is later followed by:

This is an interesting piece of evidence here. I understand that this could have been an innocent unintentional use of words but it also could be a Freudian slip. If so it suggests that

(1)RPG is scum;
(2)RPG's scumpartner is one of the people he has not interacted with yet.

This is one confirmed scum riding on the back of a weak argument by his partner and giving it apparent merit.

So because the confirmed scum supported what I said, I must be scum? Sounds more like a newbie scum player trying to look pro-town by supporting the more experienced players. Doesn't make me scum.

#98/21: Unvote the wrong person. More evidence of throwing the vote around in an anti-town way.

As I have said, I have performed just as erratically in other games in which I am now seen as town. One of my flaws is that I don't pay attention sometimes, or I forget when I change a vote sometimes. I've done it as town, and I think I did it as scum the one time I was scum (if my memory serves me right).

#103/22:

To be entirely truthful, it is mostly instinctual gut feelings based on what I remember from your meta. like I said above, I'll take some time to actually compare the two games. Sorry if it's a null tell. But it did get some discussion, did it not?

So you admit to making a hasty vote, but then it almost seems like you try to justify it by saying it got discussion?

Yep.

Speaks for itself.

Yes, it was a rather hasty vote, and it got discussion. So?

#104/23: Re-votes TF. More voting confusion.

See above. I've done worse in other games just because I didn't pay enough attention. I really am trying to work on that.

#125/28: More misunderstandings. This one in particular is not scummy by itself, but together with the general play, it is more scummy than not.

As I said in that post, it was a misunderstanding, since I misread what he said. It wasn't a difficult mistake to make.

#142/31, 156/32: Begins to distance himself from Neo-con John after strong arguments put forth primarily by PaltryExcuse and tracker. Note how #142/31 just piggy-backs on existing arguments, and #156/32 seems to be an expansion on the "NCJ is not there anymore"-argument. The post is filled primarily with speculative observation.

Kind of hard to add all new material sometimes. However, rather than go inactive, I decided it best to at least show my support. And what's wrong with the expansion?
Also, since when are speculating and observing scummy?

There is this:

But we still have a good amount of time until deadline and discussion is still going.

Pressuring people to avoid the hammer until he can mount a defense, or buying time to let NCJ do so? Or it could be that he's working on trying to push someone else, probably tracker, back into the limelight and save his scumbuddy.

Looking back, I can see how that might appear that I was just trying to buy time. However, I had my vote on NCJ, not tracker. If I had found tracker more scummy than NCJ, I would have had my vote on him.

It worked (though, with a different lynchee):

Honestly, I don't think much of it at all. I was ready to hammer tracker until 1, I though I was being replaced and then 2, IKD posted. I'll have to look over Neo-Con John's posts and the case against him again.

I'm just saying it didn't seem like a good idea to hammer immediately after someone points out we still have plenty of time.

This read to me like newbie taking the word of an IC who, it seems, used his experience to influence people.

That's the point of an IC. Use your experience to help new players. And I guess to a point, experience always influences someone. Null tell.

It ends with:

As a side note, I, by policy, do not like to try and look for scum partners and links between people until we know who one of the scum is. In order to not detract from the current discussion, I will refrain from posting why, unless someone doesn't understand how it can be a bad thing.

Reads a bit like an IC using his experience to try further distancing himself from the target, again.

So you disagree with my thought process? If so, by all means let me know why I'm wrong and then I will present why I think I'm right. Like I said sometime near the start of the game, I'm not God. I have my own opinions of how the game is run. If someone disagrees, they are more than welcome to let me know and we can discuss it. That's the point of a newbie game; to let people figure out what they do and do not agree is good gameplay.
So if you disagree, let me know. If you agree, then why is this post a problem?

#162/33: Finally votes NCJ when it looks clear that there's no alternative.

I was allowing him time to respond and see if he could defend himself against the accusations. He didn't and I found that along with the accusations to be overwhelmingly scummy. So, I put my vote where I thought would be the best place for it. And I was right. How is this scummy?

#175/35:

This post sounds like a lot of "I don't really care much about who gets lynched, I just want the day to end, but I don't want to draw attention to myself by ending after someone points out that it might not be beneficial to do so." Which is definitely NOT pro-town.

I don't think it reads like that at all. It reads like someone who, with a combination of advice from an IC, a mod mistake and general inexperience got confused. Not that hammering tracker is a good idea in hindsight, but he did play quite a scummy game if you remove imkingdavid and Neo-con John from the game.

What's the mod mistake you are referring to? o.O And that's how the post read for me, so that's what I posted. If you see it as something different, that's your opinion, and you're welcome to point it out.

Post ends with a FoS on Gayle. I guess now that the town is committed to voting Neo-con John, it's too late to throw the vote around like earlier.

Vote = I want him lynched. FoS = there are two scum in the game, so lets keep an eye on more than just the one. No need to change my vote because I'm happy with it.

#192/36:

Ok, at this point it looks like it's down to tracker or NCJ for a lynch unless we have a last minute wagon in the next few days. Or if we don't come to an agreement, it's No Lynch. So everyone needs to make a decision before deadline or we'll basically waste a day.

Yet some more pushing of other options. Still pushing tracker, brings up the no-lynch idea again and is trying to create confusion.

Wha...? Are you really confused after reading that post? I was laying out the facts. tracker and NCJ were the top two, but I was making sure people realized that if we didn't reach a majority it would be a no lynch. I wasn't showing support of a no lynch.

That post was meant to make people choose sides. Wasn't trying to confuse anyone, and I don't see anyone who was confused by it.

#200/38:

Having 3 different votes and 2 different FoS's by page 8 is hardly a reason for suspicion. It shows that I'm looking around and weighing possible options. If I had, say, 5 or 6 different baseless votes by now and was throwing suspicion at every person without much consistency, then there might be a cause of concern.

Actually, this is a cause for concern. There have been 5 people you've thrown suspicion on, almost all of which was done via very little analysis or others' analyis. Cause Of Concern.

Actually, I think I've shown suspicion for almost everyone in the game. That's because as a town, we don't know who is the remaining scum, and by focusing on one person, we let them slip by if that's not the right person. No "Cause Of Concern."

We're going to take a sidebar into my predecessor, Hercule Poirot's posts for a second. I normally wouldn't explain my predecessors actions, but it highlights some interesting things.

#221 (Hercule Poirot): States that he considers tracker innocent—this is a cop signaling. He follows with some really flawed vote analysis, but then gives a nice:

How good do you think our odds of winning this game are?

Of course, it would be very rude of me to ask that without answering.
I'll say, 97%. Unless something goes horribly wrong, I'm sure we can win this.

I guess he was correct. I'll say the "horribly wrong" is that I'm unable to make you guys believe my roleclaim before we make a lynch decision tomorrow.

#231: Hercule Poirot's odd Sherlock Holmes gambit to out a fake cop roleclaim. He knows that one mafia member is down, he's already got a confirmed innocent on tracker, who can confirm him (no chance of being scum buddies in this setup). This is a pretty poor ploy because essentially he's rolefishing and you get idiots like SirPent who ruin everything. Newbie play.

OK, we're at the point where the shit hits the fan.

#268: SirPent just fakeclaimed cop and voted Gayle. In my reading I assumed this was a joke vote for quite a few posts. I can't believe anybody took this seriously. Every single one of his posts after that until the most recent has been of a troll (Gayle caught that one: #283). One that ruined the game, I'm afraid.

#284: tracker voted Gayle, which, as a semi-experienced player, blows my mind. I can't believe that anyone would fall from that. If there were three guaranteed scum, I didn't have a guaranteed town confirmation and tomorrow wasn't LyLo, I'd be pushing hard for back-to-back imkingdavid and tracker lynches.

So if we just decided that both tracker and I are scummy for it but we only have 1 remaining scum, why are you still using it as "evidence"? It shows that even town players can do something that may seem scummy.
In any case, when someone makes a role claim, I try to take it seriously. Yes, it's regrettable that SP has basically screwed up the game for us with his fake cop claim, but at the time I provided my reasoning behind the vote, and I voted. I did what I thought was best. And as I pointed out, now realize that a much better choice would have been to lynch SP instead of Gayle. But hindsight is 20/20, and we can't go back, now can we?

#285/45: One hour after tracker, imkingdavid swoops in to vote Gayle. Looks like less of a muppet now that he's followed tracker. No IC should ever put a vote on such a terrible claim.

I had had no time to really post anything until then. If you will notice my other posts, I pointed out that I found the claim scummy, and it just happened that I had voted after tracker. It wasn't as a piggy back. If tracker hadn't voted before me, I would have still voted. Also, as you'll notice, I even then did not wish to push the lynch just yet so that we could get some discussion. But then Gayle decided to screw us over and self-hammer (which you should never do, btw).

#288: Gayle self-votes. Terrible idea, though I understand the frustration. Never self-vote unless it guarantees town win.

Agreed.

#289/290: Both Toon Fighter and PaltryExcuse pick up on tracker and imkingdavid's ridiculous votes.

...

#291:

I just didn't like gayle. :p I really Didn't excpect that to pick up so much steam and a quick lynch, the real scum if I didn't guess correctly on gayle, lies between ikd and tracker.

I probably wouldn't have joined the game if I had read this far before I got my confirmation PM. Or, well, if I knew that I was going to be a cop with a confirmed hit on the last mafia member already. Too easy.

Mighty convenient to join in and have "the answer" to the game, eh? And you try build on the current confusion caused by the previous cop claim with your own claim. I see no reason to believe you and more than I now see to have believed SP. I hope we don't as a town make the same mistake again.

#300/47: imkingdavid tries to explain his actions. Very scummy explanation with a lot of apologies because of poor judgement, a recurring theme. Especially with:

Sorry. Oh wait, I just apologized. = scum. Ok, read this post, and this post (not the whole thing, since it's rather long). They are both me as town. So apologies aren't inherently scummy. I try to apologize when I screw up, which is more than I can say about some people.

s far as SP is concerned, here's my take on it. It would be complete idiocy to make such a claim that early on in the game as scum. On the same token, it would but just as stupid to make the claim as cop, especially since we just found out that he was lying if he was either scum or cop. So either he just doesn't care about the game and is screwing us over to give the scum an easy win, or he's being overly scummy on purpose to make us think he's not scum

Why is this being presented now, after you were responsible for getting Gayle lynched?

You can't put all the blame on me, although I do admit I did misjudge when I voted. However, tracker and gayle and SP were also responsible for his lynch. I'm not trying to shift all the blame, but I'm just finding it odd that you find it necessary to focus on one person. Maybe my blunder is more significant because I'm IC, but you can't disregard the others.

#315/51:

I am tempted to hammer as it is, but given that the day is only just beginning and we need to wait for a HP replacement (and I'd like to hear his/her take on things before we move on), I will not do so.

"Tempted to hammer"? Another quicklynch? No, this time there's an explanation that there will be some forethought, probably to avoid Toon Fighter jumping on him again.

So now forethought is scummy? Would you rather I had hammered?

@

imkingdavid

:

I assume you realize the statements about you throwing your IC weight around aren't personal—I'd do the exact same thing in your situation, probably. Though maybe a little subtler!

I try not to let IC get in the way of my play. I understand that new players will naturally be influenced by the more experienced players, but even still I am just as much a player in the game as anyone else is.

TL;DR

:

I'm a sane cop, confirmed imkingdavid as scum N2, and have shown he's played a scummy game anyway and has buddied with Neo-con John while he was alive. Tracker confirmed innocent N1. SirPent is basically a troll, and I'll actively avoid games with him in future.

Since I don't expect everyone in the town to believe me after SirPent's actions, I have presented a PBPA of imkingdavid highlighting a lot of scummy behavior.

Someone unvote SirPent to take him off L-1 before imkingdavid can make good on his hammer threat, at least until my case can be discussed.

That area tag

is

cool.

Alright, there's my defense. I tried to respond to everything that begged a response, and I think my points are sound, so I would appreciate it if you would respond to all of it (no picking and choosing, please).

[imkingdavid]

First of all, It would have been better for qax to respond first, not tracker. It was qax that I was responding to anyway, not tracker. If tracker has some questions, he can ask. I still expect a response from qax.

@tracker: you're still planning on making a decision tonight!? Deadlines not for a couple of weeks. And you guys are accusing me of being hasty with my votes. I'm already at L-1 and we're about to go into lylo, and you and qax are saying I'm being hasty.

Anyway, I will respond to tracker's post, I will cut out everything but tracker's response for the sake of saving space.

Hammering this early in the day is suspicious, even with Sirpent's previous actions, we were giving him a chance to defend himself, like we're giving you chance to defend yourself.

Correct. I understand that. Where did I say otherwise? My point with this was to say that yes, I could have hammered, but I didn't. And on top of that, other people have had plenty of time as well. So I was saying that him pointing me out by saying that "imkingdavid will hammer and SirPent will flip town" is sort of unfair; more than just I could have hammered.

actually we can confirm the presence of a roleblocker, if qax is cop, and a doctor appears that confirms the presence of a roleblocker, come on IKD don't you know the set-up?

Ok, but we would have to lynch both a cop and a doctor in order to do so, as lynching is really the only way to confirm a role (except in the case of a cop having a proven guilty). So yes, you're right, we could confirm if we had a roleblocker, but only if we did the most anti-town thing there is: call out both the doctor and cop if there are even both or either of them, and then then lynch both of them and make sure they both come up as power roles. If they both do, then we do have a roleblocker. However, this is not plausible for this game as trying this would mean instant defeat. And it's not really smart to do this in any game, really.

Other than that, the only way is to lynch the roleblocker, if there is one. That's all I was saying.

And no, I don't know the set up. What are

you

suggesting?

So what are you suggesting here IKD? My thoughts on it further down

Suggesting? More like

implying

, really, that we should not trust everything he says. I feel like he's trying to capitalize on the fact that we already had one false cop claim, so now it is slightly more believable for another in theory.

then why not ask the mod to replace him?

...I believe I did. Or I was going to if he didn't post. Anyway, he wasn't in danger of a lynch, so where's the issue here? Are pressure votes now scummy?

This isn't the only instance of putting words in people's mouths, I do believe I re-call this happening at least once more, with over-exaggerating my policy on lurkers, maybe more but I have under 5 minutes to complete this entire responce so I'll find this out for sure later

Links?

true, this alone doesn't make you scum

ok.

links?

I did provide them below in my previous response, although they were in answer to a different question. However, you can look through that game and see what I'm talking about. We have plenty of time, so it's not like we're hard pressed for a lynch, so look through that thread some.

I think the point he's trying to make here is that you sowed confusion

I don't recall anyone being confused, except perhaps me those times I unvoted and revoted the same person and whatnot. If you were confused by whatever I did, it wasn't my intention. And why are we bringing this up now instead of when it happened. If there was any confusion, it should have been brought up then so I could clarify what I meant by anything. It makes so sense to bring up past confusion when you failed to ask for clarification.

more links please?

See what I said above about the links in the previous response.

another possible way to show support is by writing it out, best way to add material is to wait for the lynch canidate to post something, and if he doesn't till his replacement posts something

So if I wrote out everything everyone else had already said instead of implying it it would be fine? No, you would still accuse me of parroting.

more scummy or until I became a threat?

It's things like this that make me feel like you are set on my lynch no matter what I say. So why not just go ahead an hammer? Seriously...

watch for my responce to this below, I will have it in blue

What the part about you not remembering what you had in mind? Well, I'll wait for it when you remember. I don't see what all there is to make of this though...

here i think, don't actually remember exactly what I had in mind, will return to this when I have more time

Ok...

but didn't you say that we shouldn't look for scum partners until after the fact?

Until after we found one, yes, which we have. What point are you trying to make here? How is an FoS scummy now?

town tunnel, scum spread, ever heard of it? It goes against some people's opinion but it's something I've kind of noticed on this site.

hmmm nope never heard of it. too bad it's not accurate. Tunneling is anti-town, so town should not do it.

However, I'm confirmed town now, and you're still up in the air, scum do scummy things too

Did I miss something? I don't recall anyone confirming you as town.

So your're saying we should lynch Qax42?

I am saying that we should think through who we lynch today instead of doing like I helped us do yesterday and rush to a lynch. However, my points I made against HP still stand.

if the claim was scummy then why did you vote?

Because the thing to do when you find something scummy is vote.

so again you're saying that we should lynch qax42 instead of you

Well, of course I'd be against a lynch of myself. No one here wants to be lynched. But all I'm doing is pointing out my thoughts. If you want to use them as points against me, then go for it.

will do this when I have more time, promise

Waiting. We have plenty of time, so take some time and read through the rest of my part in the thread too. We have a few weeks or so weeks until deadline.

i'm ok with tunneling you until you either A, refute everything, or B, are lynched

Go for it. But if we end up losing because you decided to tunnel, then keep that in mind next time.

k, tried to respond to as much of it as possible in 5minutes, and cut the rest, (actually I went over and am eating out here too). Will make a decision tommorow or later tonight when I have more time,

Like I said, why are you in such a hurry? Deadline is on the 27th. Take your time and think this through.

[imkingdavid]

OK, sorry for the triple post, but I had one more thought. Where's the downside to lynching IKD?

It goes like this: There's only 1 scum left in the game, and four town. If we lynch IKD today, and he flips scum, well, it's over. If he flips town, however, we'll go into tomorrow at lylo. Now, if this happens (which, I admit is unlikely), we'll have caught qax in a complete lie (his positive result on IKD N2), and so can lynch him the following day. Tracker is all but town IMO, and TF has proved himself with his questioning of the Gayle lynch yesterday. If IKD was truly town, he would want to sacrifice himself to incriminate qax so we could lynch him tomorrow. Really, with only 1 scum left in the game it's pretty simple. Lynch IKD today, and if he flips town lynch qax tomorrow. Only scum would refute this.

Any other opinions?

You're welcome to do as you please without the our consent. If you feel it is in the town's best interest to lynch me, go for it. Or if you feel that allowing further discussion is more beneficial, don't hammer. Your choice, really.

[imkingdavid]

He can't hammer now, there is only one vote on you.

...is that all you have to say? How about you add to the current conversation. Might be beneficial.

If you truly are town, then you wouldn't be giving me such a poisonous drink to swallow.

WIFOM noted.

it doesn't matter what I think since you seem to be a crazy killer who's liable to go off at any time

Putting words in my mouth noted.

Just answer, do you think your lynch would be a good move for the town?

Trying to skirt any blame for potential town flip tomorrow by seeking my permission to vote me... noted.

but to answer your question, in my opinion, it would be anti-beneficial to lynch me.

[imkingdavid]

As I have said, if you feel it is the best case scenario to lynch me in order to ensure a town win, then go for it.

OK, so why exactly would it be anti-beneficial to lynch you?

purely selfish reasons, tbh.

[imkingdavid]

Note much time atm, but I figured I'd respond to this since it seems there is a misunderstanding:

A minor point that bothered me, IKD, as an IC, I find it hard to believe that you're ignorant of the set-up. The mod said in his opening post it was F11, and it's the same in all newbie set-ups.

Also, we don't have to lynch both a cop, and a doctor, or lynch a role-blocker before knowing the exact set-up. A doctor's night protection can show his presence and there may even be more, I'll have to think on this matter more.

I know it's F11, but that setup has 4 possibilities. I'm saying we as a town do not know the specific setup. All we know for sure is that there was 1 mafia goon, as he has been lynched. The rest is up for grabs.
The only way we can have a roleblocker is if we either have both a cop and a doctor or if we have neither. So in order to tell if we have a roleblocker, the only way to know is to either lynch both the cop and the doctor if they exist, or to lynch the roleblocker if he exists. Do you follow?

As far as us knowing if we have a doctor by whether or not a lynch happens, it's quite easy for the mafia to just not make a night kill to create the impression of a doctor. Not that that would be optimal scum play in most cases, but if they are trying to pull some stunt, that's how it would work.

Although I just remembered that this mod in particular randomizes any unsent night actions, so the above wouldn't work in this case. But you get what I'm saying, correct?

Anyway, no more time tonight. Good night!

[imkingdavid]

Eh, so much for that.

Well, good job, everyone. I figured I wouldn't be lasting much longer once qax showed up and basically sealed the deal with his WOT (Wall Of Text).

I guess my first major mistake was jumping on the Gayle wagon. I should have voted SP and then NKed Hercule. There was no way I could have prevented NCJ from linking himself to me, but that also was a big thing for some of you, I think.
In any case, I believe the game was pretty much sealed when qax posted his wall. I was having a hard time coming up with non-scummy sounding responses, and I was even considering just not responding at all, which is why my post was so late. However, since I am IC, it was my responsibility to not flake because that sets a bad example for the newer players.
Moral of the story? Don't flake when you're scum, even if you don't see a way out. At worst, you should die trying.

SP's fake claim as town was pretty rotten.

Never do that

as town, even if you lose interest in the game. Even though it ended up screwing scum over instead of town, often times it has the opposite affect, and you'll get on a lot of peoples' bad sides no matter what the outcome is. That is where the Lynch All Liars idea comes from.

Anyway, I sent a PM to elmo to make sure things weren't messed up, but he just responded saying he hadn't made any mistakes. So I knew SP wasn't cop right away (since I knew Gayle wasn't scum). And that's where I screwed up big time. I made a choice (the wrong one) and voted Gayle, even though it would have been obviously better for me if I had voted SP. Had that happened, I would have played off his VT (vanilla townie) flip as Lynch All Liars. And then I could have continued my attack on HP (that is, if he had ever responded) without all the BS caused by the Gayle lynch.

Also, I know it's common for scum to share their night talk, but before you guys ask, there was absolutely 0 (none, nada). I posted in the quick topic but NCJ never responded, and then he was dead before the next night. It would have been nice to get some pre-game planning out of the way, and it might have turned out in scum's favor had we been able to.

@ elmo:

First off, thanks for modding the game. You were active and prompt with your vote counts, and you weren't too slow in finding replacements as needed. I hope to have you as a mod again sometime.
Secondly, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the overall gameplay by each player. I'd like to see how I can improve my game, besides making a voting mistake and trying to peg weak and baseless accusations against someone (RPG) early on.

My thoughts:

NCJ

- Dude, it was a decent first game. I can understand how you probably got kind of scared having to jump right in as scum, especially when I pretty much turned on you to save my own reputation. Just keep in mind that if one scum wins, all scum win, even dead ones. Too bad that didn't work out. Maybe if you had tried defending yourself a little more, you could have escaped a lynch. Who knows. Anyway, I haven't really checked to see, but if you haven't signed up for another game, you should. Don't let this one get you down; you win some you lose some. Who knows, maybe we'll be in another game together.

tracker

- All I can say is, as scum, I detest starting out with questions. As town, it's a good idea, but I would much rather have had an RVS and possibly created some confusion there right off the bat. I always have trouble answering questions or finding my own to ask people, whereas I can usually find something to say about a vote. But anyway, good game. I hope to play with you again sometime.

RPG

- Nice to play another game with you. Sorry about the BS vote based on meta. I actually really did think that it was true, although that was purely based on memory since I hadn't actually done any research myself. That was a big mistake on my part. I was just trying to get some quick lynch in order, even though that probably wouldn't have helped me out much in the long run. Why did I kill you first? You seemed like one of the more pro-town players that would be on to me, since you'd played with my before as town and would be able to pick out any differences and peg me as scum because of them. Anyway, good game, maybe we'll be in another together sometime.

Gayle

- My bad on that quick lynch. I didn't really think it through very well. Although it would have been better if you hadn't self-hammered; that is generally a bad thing to do in any game, except in very special circumstances (at least, that's what I've heard; I can't think of any myself). Good job with scum hunting. Hope to play another game with you soon.

PaltryExcuse

- As soon as I voted Gayle, I knew you'd have something to say about it, so I had to get rid of you. That's why you were gone on night 2. I kept you alive at the start because you were for the most part on my side and didn't seem to have much suspicions of me until the Gayle vote. Anyway, you were doing a very good job with scum hunting, so great game. Hopefully we'll meet again.

Nicodemus

- well, you really had it pretty easy with the timing of your replace in. Your cop claim pretty much made it final. I could only do so much to try and plant the idea that you were trying another hoax. I guess you are lucky that the mod happened to choose me for the random investigation. Anyway, Nice job! See you around!

qax

- when I said I hoped to hear your thoughts, I wasn't being completely serious. And I wasn't expecting how indepth it was. You make a very good scum hunter and I knew I was a goner as soon as I saw your first analysis post. Although, you never did respond to my points. But I guess it's a bit late for that. I hope to play with you again, but next time on the same side!

TF

- What can I say? you played alright, although you weren't as active as you could have been. I didn't really have very much to put against you throughout the game. Good game. See you around.

Well, that's basically all I have to say.

[imkingdavid]

I wonder how the game would have turned out without the fakeclaim though.

I firmly believe that had the fake claim not occured and I hadn't put you in self-hammer range because I wasn't thinking hard enough, I might have been able to pull through possibly.

Actually, I didn't have a pro-town read on you,

Ah, misread you then. I only really noticed you being against me right before I killed you after hammering Gayle.

as NCJ's behaviour towards you seemed to be too friendly

Yeah, it was pretty obvious, I guess, but it was unavoidable on my part since I never really had much of a chance to talk with him. I did tell him not to make any links between us in the QT before day 1, but I don't know if he ever read it. And of course, I failed to mention that trying too hard to not make any links makes links. lol funny how that works, eh?

I give you major respect points for fighting it out until the bitter end.

I was seriously considering not doing so because I knew it was a losing battle. But, might as well die trying.

I would like you to answer why you didn't hammer SirPent as Nicodemus suggested on Day 3 before he replaced in.

I didn't hammer SP when I had the chance because at the time I felt it would have turned out worse for me because I would have had to figure out some way to explain myself. I realize now that it would have been MUCH easier to explain away than the Gayle hammer.

Anyway, yeah even though I lost, it was a fun game. Hopefully we won't get any more SirPent's that false claim as town, as that hurts the game for both sides and causes unneeded confusion. While scum can often slip through in confusion, this time I made the wrong choice and came out #1 suspect. lol

[imkingdavid]

IKD

do(would) you enjoy opening questions as town?

Undecided, really. I'm fine with either.

I would join your game but I just opted in for a another newbie game and I really only have time for one at a time. But I'll keep it in mind.

[imkingdavid]

lol, Gayle is right. You've done a great mod. Very few mods have done as well as you have (like Vel, bird1111, Xtoxm, and Zorblag, so far). Unless you mean changing to be more like you were in this game, don't change anything.