Open 189~Trouble@Warren State Mental Hosp (Over)

[Vi]

/confirmyouth

[Vi]

Are there any members of the scumchat posse who are making us wait until they confirm? We can start with them.

[Vi]

Is this new guy allowed to play with this clique?

*checks your join date*
Newb Card, AtE, IGMEOY, WIFOM WIFOM, over--

[Vi]

Is this new guy allowed to play with this clique?

*checks your join date*
Newb Card, AtE, IGMEOY, WIFOM WIFOM, over--

I remember when you were but a little orphan child, wandering the streets for pennies for bread.

I got better.

Incidentally, I was invited to scumchat once (a long time ago). As you can tell, I didn't show. Your thoughts?

/checks in

We're lynching you. Discuss.

[Vi]

*checks your join date*
Newb Card, AtE, IGMEOY, WIFOM WIFOM, over--

Okay, you got me. GG all. Can I join the clique now?

Don't ask me; I'm not in the scumchat clique.

That's unfortunate.

for whom

[Vi]

EBWOP: I'm in the "people who owe tubby big time" clique.

[Vi]

You retroactively ruined the post by making the joke obvious, and me look smug.

You say that like I wasn't scumhunting with my response.

[Vi]

WII

Fixed?

Vote: Xdaamno

(L-5)
A better-than-random vote.

[Vi]

vote populartajo

The only one in this player list that I've played with before. Therefore, he must die so that I can have more time to get to know the others.

You don't need to have played with Xdaamno before to vote him now. (I haven't played with X before.)

[Vi]

What's with the Xdaamno hate? Or Xdaamno quick-lynch love? (pick your own perspective)

Post 27

[Vi]

I assumed you realised how difficult it is to answer those questions without looking scummy, so I thought the best strategy was to run through several layers of town thought (which would be harder for me to do as scum.)

Wait, so it's more difficult for scum to respond to a

generic and mostly reasonless

lynch threat? Never mind that you just said--

I've played a couple of mafia games before.

(Yeah, I realised you were scumhunting. I don't think that's a scum tell, I've played a couple of mafia games before.)

*reads between the lines*
So am I more likely Town, or scum?~

tl;dr Yes, my vote is serious.

[Vi]

What? Are you misunderstanding me on purpose? I thought that was pretty clear. It's harder for scum to think like a town player would than a town player, and noticeably so when they're both thinking things through a few 'layers' of thought.

You are clear. You said you had to artificially project yourself through several layers of a Town mindset in order to determine a

correct

response.
At this stage in the game, there is effectively nothing stopping you from responding in the same way as Town or scum except sheer psychological pressure, which I would not expect to come into play considering you have "played a few games before".

In plain English, you're making excuses for yourself in attempting to look Town.

I've played a couple of mafia games before.

(Yeah, I realised you were scumhunting. I don't think that's a scum tell, I've played a couple of mafia games before.)

*reads between the lines*

So am I more likely Town, or scum?~

tl;dr Yes, my vote is serious.

I don't get this either. If you want to read into that, if anything, I was criticizing your scum hunting, not calling you scum. Yes, of course, I'm scumhunting you too at the same time.

You didn't answer the question. (It was separate from the snide remark before it; sorry if that wasn't clear.)

[Vi]

Oh, I didn't realise that was a question.

Most likely town. Are you trying to test my ability to take statistics into account?

If you didn't realise that's a silly question otherwise, then once again I don't want to argue with you like this. That is, with logic.

No, it's not a silly question. It's me unsuccessfully attempting to get you to take your second stance of the game (the first being "don't lynch me").
You say you are/were trying to scumhunt me, and the best you can do is say that I'm most likely Town based on there being more Townies in the game?

I agree, I'm done with this argument.

Confirm Vote: Xdaamno

(btw, a silly question would be "Who are these stupid people you were referring to?")

Cut: I like to believe I know how to be Town well enough, please and thank you--

[Vi]

Not the typical way of starting the game, although I expected something like this happening with someone.

Hai!

Daamo's answers are meh, not remarkably scummy or townie.

Which leans toward scummy in itself.

I like Hyl's post/vote, and not just because it's on our favorite perennial scum candidate.

[Vi]

I like Hyl's post/vote, and not just because it's on our favorite perennial scum candidate.

Is the weed you're on good or is it just some ditch weed?

This is the poor stuff. I save the goods for special occasions.
Really though, it's like VPB is going in circles around the elephant in the room.

I will concede that right now the historians are difficult to read because there are too many of them to be scum. But that's okay, because I've already found scum *huggles vote*

[Vi]

vote: vi

...I feel Xdaamno needs some support, not more votes.

(...)

Only when i see more posts or good explanations from other players will i consider changing my vote.

I don't suppose you have a target in mind for who's scum, do you?

I'm looking forward to JDodge's response to you.

[Vi]

I don't have a definite idea no, but then again we are only 5 pages in. I wish I were that good though lol.

I find that strange, considering your resistance to changing your vote from the person most associated with attacking Xdaamno.

Aside from ambiguously defending Xd, do you have any reads at all? Are you trying to get any reads?

[Vi]

EBWOP: If your vote on me is more for the short-name factor than for the unspoken Xdefensemno, then you're saying that the best you can do for finding scum after one hundred posts is a random vote, which means you don't have enough of an opinion on anyone to put down a reasoned vote... which I would find as suspect, as each player has offered a response to the Xdaamno wagon along with their reasoning.

[Vi]

I will concede that votes in my direction get my attention, and that particular vote combined with the rest of the post seemed too coincidental to pass up mentioning.
However, as I mentioned in the EBWOP, Otto - like you - has gingerly stepped around saying anything at all.

[Vi]

I will concede that votes in my direction get my attention, and that particular vote combined with the rest of the post seemed too coincidental to pass up mentioning.
However, as I mentioned in the EBWOP, Otto - like you - has gingerly stepped around saying anything at all.

What, about me? That's usually because I'm much more careful about saying anything wrong and more willing to put myself in other people's shoes. Less posts end up passing the litmus test.

I used to play like that. It's great for surviving, but beyond terrible for finding scum. (So it worked to great effect when I was scum in Tofu Mafia.)

You mean to tell me there's nothing you have to say about anyone except me, and that in my response to Otto I went from "as likely as anyone to be Town" to "most likely to be scum"?

[Vi]

This isn't optimal play - I'm just being transparent.

Promising suboptimal play and lying in the same sentence doesn't become you.

[Vi]

This isn't optimal play - I'm just being transparent.

Promising suboptimal play and lying in the same sentence doesn't become you.

Stop trolling.

Could you clarify what you mean by lying, Vi?

Do you think he isn't being transparent so it is a lie

, or purposefully acting transparent is in and of itself a lie? Or something else?

You got it the first time, although afterward I realized that we were talking about two different kinds of transparency.
I don't really care if you tell me exactly how you're going to play; I care that it's obvious that you're Town or scum. In a game like this, which is more or less guaranteed to have no power roles, there's no benefit to deliberately acting scummy.
Further, Mafia is

not a game of logic

and it is scummy to try to frame it as one.

---

@tajo 132: Could you clarify what you said to Otto?

---

@Izzy: NOW I see what you're seeing... but I'm not sure where you're going with it. Yes, the statement doesn't belong in this game, but would scum be more likely to say that?

---

Also, the collision of veterans and newer people makes this game slightly more difficult.

I'm curious. Could you list the vets vs. the newer people, quickly? (Hint: Otto U. is an alt)

---

@Hyl: Is VP Baltar the scummiest (most likely to be scum) person in the game? Who is the second-scummiest?

[Vi]

If I had to lynch someone other than VBP it would Izzy, only because I'm the least fond of her play-style.

What about Otto?
Why are you leaning Town on Xd?

Further, Mafia is not a game of logic and it is scummy to try to frame it as one.

Elaborate please.

Give scum the chance to sufficiently explain themselves, and they will do so to the maximum extent they can reach without obviously throwing out WIFOM.
The game then decides who is best at making excuses, not finding scum.

@JDodge: Check in, please--

[Vi]

(...)to be honest I don't see that great of a case on Xdammno. I don't wish to be opportunistic and just come straight out of the gate with another vote on him. I need to see some definite cases before I make that move. Meta just doesn't cut it.

There is no dilemma of "make a random vote" and "vote Xdaamno", and the case for at least two people on Xd is not "meta".
Incidentally, you appear to be caught up now. Any thoughts?

I have to disagree with this. I have won quite a few mafia games in the endgame stage using just pure logic. Having the right amount of knowledge of roles and plotting out all of the possible scenarios helps narrow down stupid decisions considerably.

Not relevant to this game at all.

----

Cayke: Less shooting down everything Xd says, more of just about anything else please.

[Vi]

EBWOP:

Incidentally, you appear to be caught up now. Any thoughts

on the nine players other than yourself, me, or Xd

?

Rather than say "should we investigate the wagon" after you got done saying that you can guarantee one scum on Xd-Town's wagon, you should probably go ahead and do it.

[Vi]

Unvote: Xdaamno
Vote: crywolf20084 (henceforth: Cayke)

(L-6)

[Vi]

Cayke: Less shooting down everything Xd says, more of just about anything else please.

[Vi]

If I didn't like my Cayke vote so much I would snapvote Otto right now.

[Vi]

I'll do it for you. No way an experienced scumhunter should be looking at playstyle and semantics as legitimate reasons for a lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Otto

Overreact much? Nowhere at all did I say anything about lynching or even voting Xdaamno, I just don't feel he's worth defending if he constantly has to go back and explain what he meant or reword his statements because he is afraid of them looking scummy. It doesn't mean that my vote is just magically gonna go on him, I still don't think he's scum as of yet, but I'm curious to why you felt the sudden need to attack me, becasue the above quote doesn't cut it as it isn't accurate.

I simply made an offhand comment stating that I'm noting that he stumbles on what he means to say alot. I have no idea if this is normal, so I asked him.

you're

not

scumhunting

[Vi]

I'll do it for you. No way an experienced scumhunter should be looking at playstyle and semantics as legitimate reasons for a lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Otto

Overreact much? Nowhere at all did I say anything about lynching or even voting Xdaamno, I just don't feel he's worth defending if he constantly has to go back and explain what he meant or reword his statements because he is afraid of them looking scummy. It doesn't mean that my vote is just magically gonna go on him, I still don't think he's scum as of yet, but I'm curious to why you felt the sudden need to attack me, becasue the above quote doesn't cut it as it isn't accurate.

I simply made an offhand comment stating that I'm noting that he stumbles on what he means to say alot. I have no idea if this is normal, so I asked him.

you're

not

scumhunting

Apologies if you feel that way. I'm currently in exam week so my efforts are not as great as they would be otherwise.

and if this were a particularly complicated game or if last week was exam week too or if it looked like you were pressed for time at all i would feel maybe a little sympathetic

Unvote: Cayke
Vote: Otto U.

(L-5)

[Vi]

I'll do it for you. No way an experienced scumhunter should be looking at playstyle and semantics as legitimate reasons for a lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Otto

Overreact much? Nowhere at all did I say anything about lynching or even voting Xdaamno, I just don't feel he's worth defending if he constantly has to go back and explain what he meant or reword his statements because he is afraid of them looking scummy. It doesn't mean that my vote is just magically gonna go on him, I still don't think he's scum as of yet, but I'm curious to why you felt the sudden need to attack me, becasue the above quote doesn't cut it as it isn't accurate.

I simply made an offhand comment stating that I'm noting that he stumbles on what he means to say alot. I have no idea if this is normal, so I asked him.

you're

not

scumhunting

Apologies if you feel that way. I'm currently in exam week so my efforts are not as great as they would be otherwise.

and if this were a particularly complicated game or if last week was exam week too or if it looked like you were pressed for time at all i would feel maybe a little sympathetic

Unvote: Cayke
Vote: Otto U.

(L-5)

This vote baffles me. Ever consider maybe I have an exam in the next couple of hours?

Briefly, but you also weren't scumhunting before so it doesn't seem relevant.

[Vi]

For now I need to put more priority on this exam.

If this is actually the case, I agree.
If the exam is so concerning, I think there are a few better ways to prepare for it than arguing over the Internet.
We'll be here when you get back.

Also, if possible I recommend using different browsers for different alts.

[Vi]

????

I'm asking you to show HOW they are worse and worse, not just say they are.

He/we don't need to convince you. Three people have seen it for themselves without a formal case; the others may agree similarly.

Since everyone here except Otto is voting the same way, I think it would be best to finish up whatever pressing arguments are necessary until some of the inactives check in. So (>")>

[Vi]

Wait

Also @Cayke: Not impressed.

[Vi]

I was just wondering the same thing, Vi. Noticed after the ban thread got bumped on my watched topics.

Dare I ask why you're watching the ban topic?

[Vi]

I'll stick with saber account, it's easier and more open.

Full post coming after a little bit of research, but since you're here, have you found a better place for your vote?

[Vi]

Or you can speed the research~

Why did you get b&, and what does it have to do with Cayke at all?

[Vi]

Wait

Also @Cayke: Not impressed.

I hate you. Thanks for ruining my MS cookies.

Now you know how I feel every time I try to check my PMs or something and I can't log in without manually changing the web address.
tbh I like the 67.etc. address better; images are much sharper for some reason.

Anyway, anything else to comment on?

[Vi]

I'm thinking this is one of scum-cayke's ploys to stall the game.

This game is going just fine without any outside influences, no need to stall it.

I certainly agree with this much, and it's not like Cayke or Hyl have actually said anything that would sway me from wanting to lynch them.

Ah, why not. I'll drink the wine and buy into the meta that I've witnessed for myself in Mafia of Order and Cayke just attested to.

Unvote: saberwolf
Vote: Cayke

(L-6)

I still don't see why saberwolf was banned, and I don't see a connection between Cayke and saberwolf (there is one possibility, but as Cayke only reacted violently after Otto U. gaffed I don't think it's correct).

Also, JDodge is coming close to being delinquent.~

[Vi]

@VP Baltar: Regardless of what you think of saberwolf, the circumstances surrounding his claim, or the circumstances surrounding his replacement, his claim is actually pretty awesome and I'm glad he did it.

*waits on the rest of what JDodge has to say*

[Vi]

Also, my vote just went from Awesome to SuperAwesome.

[Vi]

Why.
Why is your fucking vote awesome? It really isnt?

And I'm very fed up with douchebag ruining hte game. (Fuck your non flaming rule tubby. Good friend, but god don't protect a doucehbag)

Things you've done during this game:
[x] Jumped on obviously forthcoming Xdaamno wagon
[x] Bullied Xdaamno when convenient
[ ] Jumped on Otto wagon
[x] Claimed credit for Otto wagon
[x] Flamed Otto
[x] Attempted to derail the game whilst flaming Otto
[x] Told to scumhunt
[ ] Scumhunted
[ ] Produced any original content that would help the Town
[x] Acted worse than any outburst I've seen saberwolf make while researching where he could possibly have been banned (not a scumtell so much as truth)

saberwolf has hardly ruined this game.

[Vi]

Xd, do you still like your vote on Otto Saberchaz?

[Vi]

Yeah. Why?

I disagree with your reasoning.
However, if you think 'chaz needs the pressure, then go ahead.

[Vi]

still waiting on what you have to say in response to my posts vivivivivivi <3

whywhywhywhyYwhy me in particular ^_____^

[Vi]

still waiting on what you have to say in response to my posts vivivivivivi <3

whywhywhywhyYwhy me in particular ^_____^

Because you saidsaidsaidsaidsaid you were waiting for the rest of my posts (>^_^)>

oh ok

I think your posts are garbage all the way down, but wanted to see what else you were going to do before saying anything.

Paradoxically I like the Cayke vote right now.

The two blind spots on my radar - Hyl and tajo - need to speak up. Nao.

[Vi]

Soooo....tajo has the idea. Where they hell are the rest of you?

Waiting for the other lurkers.
I'm not sure what to make of tajo durnkpsoting as the best he can do, but I suppose I can make do.

Unvote: Cayke
Vote: HowardRoark

(L-4)
It's not JDodge, but it is someone scummy and there's a larger wagon over thisaway.

[Vi]

Looking at the vote record I could actually get behind the notion of the scum featuring hawt JDodgexHowie action.

[Vi]

lol, i wasnt drunk.

what do you think of my cayke's theory?

I had to consider it for a while, but I think I agree with you.

[Vi]

how experienced do people consider Xdaamno?

Yes.

[Vi]

I like my vote staying on Poro right now, mostly to remind me to suspect him when he gets back. The Howie wagon looks promising to me, but I don't know that much about him at this moment so I'm gonna wait and watch it for a bit.

you have your vote on a claimed cop d1

with a fairly small chance of a doctor existing to protect said cop

seriously

[Vi]

I would appreciate some explanation for the votes on me.

Still like my Xdaamno vote.

only two things really

everything you've said, and everything you've done

[Vi]

Thanks, Vi.

Seriously. You haven't done anything that particularly looks pro-Town. You, JDodge, Hyl, and Xdaamno are all getting outclassed in that department.

Unvote,

as is customary

[to be done for people who claim Cop]

Are you always this obtuse?

[Vi]

Unvote,

as is customary

[to be done for people who claim Cop]

Are you always this obtuse?

Uhh, sorry. I didn't mean to be. I just wanted to make a point that I didn't feel comfortable immediately dropping that topic.

Well okay. What more would you like to talk about in re: Ottochaz?

So you know my thoughts on the subject--
*If he's telling the truth, he'll probably die overnight.
*If he doesn't die overnight, he'll provide us with an investigation result (*cough* JDodge *cough*)
*If he doesn't die after that, we can open up discussion of a policy lynch pending a review of Chaz's Townieness (although I'm willing to buy that saberwolf was Town) and whether we've hit scum by then (I would be surprised if we haven't).

[Vi]

Since we've actually decided to not play this game anymore. VOTE HOWARD ROARK. ffs, stop making me repeat myself.

I'll repeat you for you ^.^

VOTE HOWARD ROARK.

that means stop being an embarrassment to mafiascum, scumchat, and your biological parents and vote to lynch scum

[Vi]

While I'm here, though...

unvote, vote VP Beltar

. I find the vehemence with which he is pursuing Howard to be quite disturbing, given the horrific weakness of the case made against him.

doubleplus ungood

[Vi]

Izzy made me realise that the flip will tell us quite a bit about what is going on here

Do tell.

[Vi]

So, we've got . . .

VP Baltar's vote (97) for a statement I've explained and he was unable to continue using as an attack, and (277) a PBPA concluding that I've been "coasting outside of the fray."

populartajo's vote (296) with no reasoning, but an taste of FoS scum partner vote another: "Decent votes: HowardRoak, Baltar is improving but still bothers me some." His vote was on VP Baltar.

Vi's vote (300) because "it is someone scummy and there's a larger wagon over thisaway." Add (318) for having done nothing seemingly pro-town while offering several others who are comparable. (IMHO a list which leaves out some even poorer performers such as Cat and Otto Ulberiecht / Porochaz.)

Xdaamno's vote (333) with no reasoning other than being able to analyze my flip. (My wagon is increasing, and his is decreasing.)


The difficult question: Which of these votes is the scummiest? The answer: Difficult to determine. Best guess would be Xdaamno (maybe biased on that based on my existing suspicion) and populartajo.

ITT, reactionary scumhunting!

Also, Cat is probTown IMO. saberwolf is probably also Town, which is a relief because I doubt Poro's ability to say anything enlightening tbh. To answer about the person you left out, I initially thought Qooq was Town but upon reread I'm not sure if that should be so.

@mod: Please replace Qooq. This has nothing to do with the holidays and everything to do with last posting on the 13th.

[Vi]

Actually, I would like to check on my Cat read.

@Cat:

Do you still like your vote for Xdaamno?
Do you think there is anyone else who is scummy in this game?

[Vi]

but the possibility of him just leading the town is one I want to investigate if Izzy flips town.

1) So... what are you doing to

counter

VP Baltar's attempts to lead the Town, or otherwise show that said Town-leading is

not

the best thing a Townie could do right now?
2) When do you expect to see Izzy flip Town?

[Vi]

Suddenly, activity.

My initial Cat read was based on

OK, I dislike playing with Xdaamno because of what's going on right now. Yes, he's definitely scummy, but he's almost always scummy acting.

which almost fits with what I would expect newbTown to say. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how newby skitzer is (as evidenced by his references to having played with Xd before) and newbTown would have left out the part about Xd being "definitely scummy".

Now note that Cat voted Xdaamno because

he's been acting just generally slightly scummy all game and I feel my vote need to be somewhere.

which coming off of his previous post (literally, the last post he made before this one) rings false.

Thus, I'm re-evaluating my read on him, which is unfortunate because skitzer is a renowned nonentity and I highly value a read on that player slot.

saberwolf was acting essentially as I would expect him to as Town (having been forced to watch Mafia of Order) and his claim locks him into a corner that essentially guarantees his eventual death, something I wouldn't expect from scum even if they have a grudge against the game. (If he IS scum, on the other hand, looking at the reactions from the people who immediately complained that saberwolf threw the game would be quite enlightening.)

Now note that the Xdaamno wagon at its peak was {Cayke, Vi, Izzy, JDodge, Howie}. I'm not looking at myself. Cayke is etc. Izzy is apparently playing to a well-known meta among the scumchatters and is overall playing too poorly to be scum right now. JDodge and you are both unTown by post content and happen to be squarely in the middle of the wagon. Thus, hawt JDodgexHowie action.

Is there anything else you would like to know?

----

And, thanks for catching that, though I resent the subtle implication of a freudian slip

Izzy is your mother?

I'm assuming you meant to say "if HR flips Town".

Ignoring this current investigation into VP Baltar's motives, do you think anyone is scum enough to vote them?
Are you suggesting that VP Baltar is primarily responsible for the HR wagon, even though you just said that he has a good chance of being scum? (

Clearly

if HR flips Town, you shouldn't be held responsible for his lynch in spite of agreeing with VP.~)

[Vi]

***********************************************

prods sent out to
(...)
Jdodge

oh hey it's someone who has been posting onsite and just happens to be scumposting ITT

reminds me of a certain other game where jdodge was scum, so there's precedent for this sort of behavior

this is not brain science

nor is it rocket surgery

[Vi]

@Vi: Thanks for the clarification. In looking at the Xdaamno wagon, you exclude examination of crywolf20084 with, "Cayke is etc." What does that mean?

Refer to tajo 296.

----

Hey VP, what thinkest thou of wagoning JDodge-scum? We get another wagon out of it, we're still lynching scum, we're lynching someone who's somehow less helpful than Howie regardless of alignment, and frankly getting reads on people in this game is like listening to this so I would just as soon go with my top choice for scum tbh.

[Vi]

This is what you get for not knowing about ancient dentistry!

Unvote: HowardRoark
Vote: JDodge

(L-5)

[Vi]

ITT, Xd hides behind legalism and obfuscation to deliberately make this game harder

[Vi]

Today we see why I'm glad I got a read on saberwolf before he left.

[Vi]

also

U. Vote Count

Xdaamno (3) - Cayke, HowardRoark, Cat
VP Baltar (2) - Hyl, DizzyIzzyB13
HowardRoark (2) - populartajo, Xdaamno
JDodge (2) - VP Baltar, Vi
Vi (1) - Porochaz
Cayke (1) - JDodge
Otherwise being useless: Qooq

Seven to lynch.
Deadline is sometime after this weekend.

Hyl hasn't posted in nine days.
tajo hasn't posted in five days.
Qooq hasn't posted in ten days.
Everyone who has said "rereading, will post later" basically lied.
Holiday week or not, this is ever-so-slightly ridiculous.

[Vi]

You may as well not even bother posting Prozac. You're going to be dead tonight anyhow and you're clearly not reading the game if you think a JD lynch is a bad thing.

He can post, if voting is involved.

@chaz: For the bajillion-dollar question, why?

[Vi]

Why needs to be more clearly defined.

Why are those all better lynches.

[Vi]

All better than JDodge who has given cases and content which generally given off a town vibe and as far as I can see there is not much of a case against him.

Neither cases nor content really. More like slinging whatever he can find at people in hopes of something sticking.

[Vi]

And how is that worse than those mentioned.

Acting scummy and then deciding not to play the game is worse than acting vaguely and then deciding not to play the game.

[Vi]

Hence voting cayke. And where is jdodge saying he is not playing the game.

He doesn't have to; he just has to post elsewhere onsite while telling us he's going to post shortly before not posting again.

There is virtually no chance that JDodge is Town in this setup based on his posts combined with his lurking (emphasis more on his posts).

[Vi]

[JDodge]

is playing to his town meta.

If this is the case, then why was I able to link to a game in which JDodge was scum and was playing more or less

just like this

?

This argument over Xd "pushing" or "following" isn't going to get anywhere.

While I'm loathe to jump off a scumwagon for a Howie wagon that I'm less confident in, if it's more likely to reach a consensus AND hit scum I can live with it.

@mod: You know who to prod, you know who to replace, get to it.

[Vi]

This is the song that never ends--
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends!
Some people - started singing it, not knowing what it was
And they'll just keep on singing it forever just because
This is the Song that never ends--
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends!
Some people - started singing it, not knowing what it was
And they'll just keep on singing it forever just because
This is the Song that never ends--
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends!
Some people - started singing it, not knowing what it was
And they'll just keep on singing it forever just because
This is the Song that never ends--
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends!
Some people - started singing it, not knowing what it was
And they'll just keep on singing it forever just because
This is the Song that never ends--
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends!
Some people - started singing it, not knowing what it was
And they'll just keep on singing it forever just because
This is the Song that never ends--
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends!
Some people - started singing it, not knowing what it was
And they'll just keep on singing it forever just because
This is the Song that never ends--
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends!
Some people - started singing it, not knowing what it was
And they'll just keep on singing it forever just because
This is the Song that never ends--
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends!
Some people - started singing it, not knowing what it was
And they'll just keep on singing it forever just because
This is the Song that never ends--
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends!

[Vi]

With all due respect, the problem will go away on its own if you vote JDodge or provide a compelling reason for voting Cayke.

[Vi]

In my view there are better options than jdodge and that is not going to change.

What do you think of the delinquent tajo's rationale for Cayke not being scum?

[Vi]

I'm voting for scum, what more do you want from me?

Convincing us why VP Baltar is scum and the alternatives being passed around are not.

Tajos point rests on caykes ability, which I find tenuous at best.

I disagree; those kinds of tells are rather effective if plied properly.

[Vi]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10162

and

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 54&start=0

I disagree with the first one resembling his play in this game, but the second one is similar enough that I understand why you're holding on to a meta connection (though I still disagree).

But thank you for providing the links ^.^

[Vi]

still waiting on what you have to say in response to my posts vivivivivivi <3

whywhywhywhyYwhy me in particular ^_____^

Because you saidsaidsaidsaidsaid you were waiting for the rest of my posts (>^_^)>

oh ok

I think your posts are garbage all the way down, but wanted to see what else you were going to do before saying anything.

***********************************************

prods sent out to
(...)
Jdodge

oh hey it's someone who has been posting onsite and just happens to be scumposting ITT

reminds me of a certain other game where jdodge was scum, so there's precedent for this sort of behavior

All better than JDodge who has given cases and content which generally given off a town vibe and as far as I can see there is not much of a case against him.

Neither cases nor content really. More like slinging whatever he can find at people in hopes of something sticking.

And how is that worse than those mentioned.

Acting scummy and then deciding not to play the game is worse than acting vaguely and then deciding not to play the game.

Hence voting cayke. And where is jdodge saying he is not playing the game.

He doesn't have to; he just has to post elsewhere onsite while telling us he's going to post shortly before not posting again.

There is virtually no chance that JDodge is Town in this setup based on his posts combined with his lurking (emphasis more on his posts).

[JDodge]

is playing to his town meta.

If this is the case, then why was I able to link to a game in which JDodge was scum and was playing more or less

just like this

?

[Vi]

Why not assume boredom?

He already tried that excuse in the game that I linked. So did his scumpartner.

vi, can I get an example of any scummy post? baltar, same question.

If VP Baltar didn't satisfactorily answer your question, I'm not sure how I can.

[Vi]

Why not assume boredom?

He already tried that excuse in the game that I linked. So did his scumpartner.

lol, is this some sort of subtle attack?

No. kuribo-scum used the same "bored and didn't want to play" M.O. in the game that I linked earlier.

I simply refuse to play in a game where halfish of the players are not even posting. I understand holidays, that s why Im not replacing out.

While I confess to having thought about replacing out, not posting makes you part of the problem. We need a more active

mod

to get this going though.

C'mon back, Vi. Let's just do something because this is simply ridiculous at this point.

I can wait.

I'm curious as to why Izzy is focusing on VP Baltar (as opposed to "VP Baltar and Vi") over the JDodge case.

[Vi]

Considering how much of a team you two are, I'd have thought Vi-scum is necessarily an implication of Beltar scum, and I'm voting for him, not you.

This would be the first time I've ever seen scum working together so blatantly in-thread.
You didn't answer the question though.

[Vi]

What do you think about JDodge?

He's participating

and I'm not seeing any red flags.

Unvote: JDodge
Vote: HowardRoark

(L-3)

[Vi]

empty words

[Vi]

Fuck JD for abandoning this. He's the reason why i joined this game.

well he IS scum after all

[Vi]

I propose we bend the rules of the game to make me an unlimited dayvig.

[Vi]

I almost just need a new day start to get back into this fully as I have no clue whats going on and every re-read is leaving me more clueless.

The Howie wagon is that way ->

If you want to vote JDodge, I would be more than pleased with that as well.

[Vi]

I almost just need a new day start to get back into this fully as I have no clue whats going on and every re-read is leaving me more clueless.

The Howie wagon is that way ->

If you want to vote JDodge, I would be more than pleased with that as well.

I ain't gonna follow that blindly now.

Okay.

You just said you wanted a new day to start so that you could get your reads back.
With that said, you're not going to do anything to get that new Day to start.

Or let me put it like this.
With this many people having flaked out (or in JDodge's case just lurking apathetically)

it's virtually impossible for us to get a majority vote on

anyone

.

[Vi]

vi, ive heard reaplacements are a good soultion...

...and if and when those replacements show up, I will be in a considerably better mood about this game... not to mention pleasantly surprised.

[Vi]

Howard Roark

~(6) L-1,populartajo,

Vi

,xdaamno,VP balter,

Vi

,cat

You counted me twice.

Mod edit *fixed

thanks

[Vi]

Vi

seems to always confuse me. Her early questioning of Xdaamno seemed a bit forced almost as if she was trying to justify the early joking instance that Xdaamno should be the early lynch. Some of Xdaamno's answers were confusing but I didn't find them scummy. Then she completely drops this angle and votes for Cayke. While I do think that Cayke is scummier than Xd I don't know why she derided to stop pushing him altogether pretty much out of the blue.

"Forced" isn't a bad word for my early questioning of Xdaamno. I sought to take the scumchat joke wagon and get some information out of it. As I'm sure you read, none was forthcoming - at least, not from direct questioning. So after a while I got tired of squeezing blood from a stone turnip and moved on.

I like your vote and the reason behind it. I'm not sure if I like it enough to jump ship, but nonetheless.

What do you think of tajo's justification for clearing Cayke?

[Vi]

Oh excellent, I get to see hito's scum meta :3

[Vi]

I wouldn't mind jumping off the Howie wagon for a while.

Unvote: HowardRoark
Vote: Cat

(L-4)

[Vi]

hito: This is a (pleasant!) change from what I saw from you in previous games. What changed?

[Vi]

because at the end of the day someone needs to be lynched and if you don't like who's getting strung up then congratulations, you are a tree stump.

Almost correct. If you don't like who's getting strung up and you aren't outrightly arguing against their lynch (or for someone else's lynch), you are a tree stump.

I'm sold. I would still lynch JDodge in any game he played like that in (which I'm gathering is every game) but I'm not voting against a catch-up play like that.

Catwagon, go :arrow:

[Vi]

ITT,

[Vi]

damn, those flow charts get me every time.

Agreed. I approve highly of this sense of humor ^.^

[Vi]

damn, those flow charts get me every time.

Agreed. I approve highly of this sense of humor ^.^

It adds for a new dynamic in the humor of mafia scum. It's a nice change!

If that's a suggestion that I should try harder...

Also,

People voting for Cat: Sotty7, BloodCovenant, Vi, hitogoroshi, VP Baltar (L-2)
People who aren't expected to vote for Cat: Cat
Other people who aren't voting for Cat: Porochaz, HowardRoark (possibly belongs in second category?), Izzy, Cayke, Xdaamno, tajo

People with decent/convincing reasons for voting for someone other than Cat: Maybe Cayke

Conclusion: I would post snarky insults, but I've tried that already to no effect.

[Vi]

5 days away. why wait?

Because I like looking scummy as I needlessly stall the game in the vain hope of someone other than Cat getting lynched

k

[Vi]

Fascinating. hito was apparently more of a threat than a Cop... which either means that Prozac is scum, or hito was more on the right track than Chaz could be even with a Cop investigation. And the people who were threatened by hito were HowardRoark, Xdaamno, Izzy, and to a lesser extent Cayke...

Let's try this.

Vote: Xdaamno

(L-5)

[Vi]

Vi, now that your newbie game is over, how would you compare Howard's play there to his play here?

At first, I was fairly impressed with HR's scumplay. Later in the game, not so much.

I think there's a fairly clear difference between this game and that one, though. In the Newbie game, he was an IC amid some players who were at typical intelligent newb level. Here, not so much - Howie has said a number of times that he is intimidated by this player list, and he has acted fairly accordingly.

I don't think a comparison would work.

--

I have nothing to

add

, except that this is either the most ballsy scum wagon or the most retarded town wagon I've seen in a while.

I don't think it counts as "adding" if it has been your second line of defense all game.

--

tajo, do you actually have an opinion on anything, or are you just saying things in hopes of nobody noticing that you're trying to skate by?

[Vi]

Clearing people as town doesn't help scum win games.

So you are saying this game is not in your watched topics at all or that it was just near the bottom because no one was posting here and you didn't see it?

yeah, this.

but, think about it, poro just put himself in the frontline instead of staying alive for one more day if he were scum. Its just too early for scum to bother about confirmed townies, dont you think?

your opinion of poro is "i don't believe it but i believe it"

I jumped onto the Cat wagon for pressure following BloodCovenent initially, but then stayed on for the reasons hito gave - particularly noting his terribly unsatisfying jumps on the Howie and Xdaamno wagons.

[Vi]

@Vi: How strong is your VP Baltar town read?

Very.

Sotty7: Who is next on your scumlist after HowardRoark?
I agree with the BloodCovenent pressure though.

[Vi]

@Vi: How much is that based on meta?

None of it.
What is your intent in asking these questions?

[Vi]

@DizzyIzzyB13: If VP Baltar were cleared, what would be your thoughts on Vi?

Hmm. I'd probably still err towards scum, although she'd shift closer to neutral on the scumminess scale. I'm not sure it'll happen.

vote: VP Beltar.

Odd, I would expect someone who voted VP Baltar D1 over the HowardRoark case to at least mildly protest the leading wagon yesterday and today.

Unvote: Xdaamno
Vote: DizzyIzzyB13

(L-5)

[Vi]

ITT,

[Vi]

I'm back, but tired. I'll catch up and respond as soon as I can.

[Vi]

Vi are you not interested in HR at all today?

I am interested in a HowardRoark wagon, but I don't want it to be the only thing I do. Thus, spreading the hate.

@replacement out = Towntell: Calling it a broad Towntell is a fallacy. You need to understand the motivation behind why people replace out.

BloodCovenent - You said that you didn't like Otto's claim a while ago. Can you talk about that yet?

[Vi]

What do you make of BC's stance switch on you?

It has definitely pinged. He replaced in yesterday and jumped on the Cat wagon and today seems to be playing follow the leader.

Define "jumped on".

[Vi]

BloodCovenent - So your reason for doubting sabrewolf's claim is because you don't like sabrewolf? That doesn't make sense.

[Vi]

Is anyone L-1?

You are. ^_^

I'm still voting for Izzy, which is pretty nice.

[Vi]

Vi, do you think Izzy is more likely to be scum than BC or Howard?

do you not agree that izzy is scum

tbh I don't think anything I say will get through to her, so :\

Unvote: DizzyIzzyB13
Vote: BloodCovenent

(L-4)

[Vi]

Porochaz is a better player than that. Not that this game is evidence.

...

Oh wait, you've never really mentioned why you want Cayke lynched? Ok~
Who else wants to lynch the claimed Cop?

[Vi]

because it seemed like this game was floundering before I even replaced in

It has been floundering since about Page 4, and that's largely because up until then everyone had already decided pregame who to lynch.

Also, I am by no means a "mafia god", any way you measure it.

Ok, well ftr, I think lynching the claimed cop is a stupid idea and I don't even think Vi was proposing it seriously so much as she was giving a commentary on your prior post.

Well, that and wondering who (other than SlySly) would agree. Trap deactivated, etc.

I think lynching BC or Howard is by far the superior route today.

I'm kind of getting fence-sittish on HR tbh. I would actually like to lynch Izzy >.>

[Vi]

These words aren't going anywhere, so why don't we mix things up?

Each time you post, include a vote or a confirm vote. (and why)

---

Vote: Sotty7

(L-5)
Off the sidelines, plz ->

[Vi]

Confirm Vote: Sotty7

The Catwagon consisted of:
*Sotty7
*BloodCovenent
*Vi

*hito

*VP Baltar
*Cayke (now Rosso Carne)

Who, if anyone on this list, is likely to be scum pushing the wagon?

@HowardRoark: Who is scum? You may as well go ahead and post a town-scum rating ladder at this point.

[Vi]

You and BC would be my top two picks from that list.

Anytime you want to explain your vote would be nice. Confirm voting me for a crappy reason isn't good enough.

Odd, I don't recall being in your sights before...

There are actually two reasons behind my vote, and I've hit on both of them already in my previous two posts. If you could give the same courtesy for why I'm in your sights.

What do you think of Cayke/Rosso Carne (whoever he is)?

[Vi]

What happened to Xd?

What is your read on Xd, anyway? He's one of the few people you didn't mention in that last post.

---

I guess I may as well talk a little about the

spirit

of what I was trying to get at a few posts ago.

We need bandwagons. Specifically, we need a -lynch-. We're allowed four mislynches instead of the usual three, there are so many people nearly begging to be lynched that we likely won't miss them, this Day has dragged out for long enough, etc..

I know BloodCovenent isn't around right now, unless my memory is mistaken.
I know Izzy IS around, because I specifically remember seeing her posting in New York.
Rosso Carne just hit a level of disrespect usually reserved for zwetschenwasser, although Cayke was a mild Town read per tajo.
I'm willing to buy Sotty7 and SlySly's frustration as genuine for the time being.
I'm not lynching VP Baltar or Porochaz (at least not today, in the latter case).
I'm quite okay with an Xdaamno lynch, and a little iffy on a HowardRoark lynch.

Based on NK WIFOM and suchlike crackpot mumbo-jumbo I'm going to vote Xdaamno, though I could fairly enough be persuaded onto Izzy, RC, or HR. The major reason I'm not going for Izzy is because...

Posted:

Thu Jan 21

, 2010 10:25 am Post subject: 36

@MOD: REPLACE HER REPLACE HER DON'T BOTHER WITH A PROD DO IT DO IT NOW NOW NOW

So,

Unvote: Sotty7
Vote: Xdaamno

(L-3)

Choose sides. Lynch someone. Get it done in the next three pages.

[Vi]

Im really only voting Caitlin because it amuses me.

Was there any more reason for voting Cayke?

[Vi]

I think you know how I feel about full scum <--> town lists; so I'll pass.

I... don't, actually. But I can fill in the blanks.
Do you think scum would have something to gain by you being more open than you are?

For a second I'm not liking what I am seeing from SlySly

How is this indictment on SlySly more likely evidence of scum?

[Vi]

Illposting.

I'm not going to respond to SlySly's wall point-by-point if I can help it, but I will toss these remarks out.

*All of your comments about "lol no reasoning with vote" is probably a result of your isolationread-fu being weak. I explained why I first voted Xdaamno in previous posts, and the rest of the votes would probably be more explicable if you took a look at the votee's most recent posts at the time.
*Worth mentioning: The meta-based vote from saberwolf to Cayke is based on

saberwolf's

meta.
*Bandwagoning people you don't suspect are Town is a -good- thing. Nobody is threatened by one or two votes. A wagon, on the other hand, gets people to act differently. (ideally, anyway)
*It's difficult to talk about alignments before anyone flips, especially when everyone is doing their evil best to be scummy/unreadable/otherwise unhelpful.
*I have this mystical Townie ability to

change my mind

, and I abuse the privilege. I voted Otto U. for a while, then I

changed my mind

when I got a Town read on him. This is not rocket surgery.
*I asked Xdaamno the question about Izzy flipping Town not because I know her alignment, but because the chances of her ever flipping Town (by lynch or NK) have been near zero throughout. See later comments about getting Izzy replaced.
*Do you think I could have had Townie reasoning for re-evaluating Cat?
*Do you disagree that JDodge was not participating at the time I voted HR for saying otherwise?
*Am I the only person who's scummy for pushing for a Catwagon?
*Apparently you've never heard of the "Welp, that sucks" tell... Either way, I don't apologize for lynch wagons I'm on. Ever. Or to quote my wiki, if you got lynched and I was on your wagon, you deserved it.
*I have -no reason- to distance from or get Izzy replaced if she's my scumpartner. Nobody appears to see her at all except me. From a scum perspective, she's golden; able to lurk away the Days with relative impunity.
*The lie to Rosso Carne was a *joke* (I wanted to see if he would try hammering himself).
*Did you somehow miss the reasons I gave for voting Sotty7 in that post and the following one?

[Vi]

As for my touchiness, I blame the game. It felt like Vi was pushing on me just cause, in a game as slow as this it annoyed me. A lot about this game is annoying me, trying to get past that though.

I don't see how that would annoy you.

@VP Baltar: The only disagreement worth mentioning is over Xdaamno. I would also wait on rewq before going forward with a lynch.
'Glad to see there's a club for disrespecting RC though.

[Vi]

Have you ever played with Vi before Sly?

No.

Now questioning why I held myself together long enough to post responses to his accusations, although I sense SlySly-Town anyway.

[Vi]

As for my touchiness, I blame the game. It felt like Vi was pushing on me just cause, in a game as slow as this it annoyed me. A lot about this game is annoying me, trying to get past that though.

I don't see how that would annoy you.

Also: ITT, more

[Vi]

As for my touchiness, I blame the game. It felt like Vi was pushing on me just cause, in a game as slow as this it annoyed me. A lot about this game is annoying me, trying to get past that though.

I don't see how that would annoy you.

I just want to get something done in this game is all.

I was thinking the same thing when I was pushing you. I don't like my nonread on you.

I (think I) know that BloodCovenent has legitimately not been around recently. rewq, on the other hand, volunteered to replace into this game, and... nothing. So why wait?

Unvote: Xdaamno
Vote: rewq455

(L-5)

[Vi]

Mod: Can we get a vote count, please?

U. Vote Count

:arrow: HowardRoark (L-3) ~ Xdaamno, Sotty7, BloodCovenent
rewq455 (L-4) ~ Vi, VP Baltar
VP Baltar (L-5) ~ rewq455
Xdaamno (L-5) ~ HowardRoark
Rosso Carne (L-5) ~ Porochaz
Vi (L-5) ~ SlySly

Otherwise useless: Rosso Carne

[Vi]

Remember: Nothing to do with sports, clubs, etc. is just "one or two nights a week".

I support continuing with a rewq lynch because that's what I suggested in the first place :v

You will need to replace Rosso Carne too though.

[Vi]

Sotty7, how much do you know about Rosso Carne?
(Directly following question:) Were you 100% okay with a vote+hammer on rewq?
VP Baltar, same questions.

Hey SlySly, if I "outed" Izzy-hypotheticalpartner, you realize that I just cut my chance to win in half for no real reason, right?

HowardRoark: Scum already know who's popular and good to lynch. Your scumlist can't do much more than state the obvious (especially considering you've only voted, well, one person today, so unless Xdaamno is scum you wouldn't be considered a threat to anyone and killing people YOU don't suspect is rather pointless).

[Vi]

In the meanwhile, xd is scum.

Vote: Xdaamno

(L-4)

[Vi]

Claim cop, innocent on tajo, guilty on HR. Fucksy.

^Howard scum buddy.

Also, just so you know SlySly, it doesn't really matter which of them we lynch first since we get 4 mislynches in this game. One of them is scum and I'm much more inclined to believe a claimed cop than someone who has acted scummy all game.

SlySly replaced tajo. Not Howard scum buddy.

Unvote: Xdaamno

Evidently I was wrong about Howie? <.<;;
Voting HowardRoark would end the Day (hi Rosso Carne), and I'm kind of leery of a Day that only lasts for five hours... but on the other hand, I can't think of any reason to stall.

Vote: HowardRoark

(L-1)

@SlySly: There's no reason to fakeclaim Cop right now. At worst Xdaamno is bussing, but why do that now?

[Vi]

Also, Xd was the only one to keep his vote on Porochaz after saberwolf's claim. I'll buy it.

[Vi]

BloodCovenent has never been replaced, therefore he's not scum.

Which means that suddenly this game is interesting again.

More game breaking as events warrant.

In the meantime, scum are between {VP Baltar, Rosso Carne, Sotty7}. There is guaranteed to be one confirmed Townie in LyLo assuming BloodCovenent is replaced by then.

So let's b&wagon the person who never voted (or suspected) HowardRoark.

Vote: Rosso Carne

(L-3)

[Vi]

I need to do some reading before I make any decisions. Not necessarily opposed to a Rosso wagon though.

Where are you looking?

[Vi]

Vi what is your case on Rosso?

He/Cayke was the only person among those left unconfirmed who was against the HR wagons as they came (when Cayke acknowledged them at all) (except hammah, of course). (I acknowledge that I was wrong about HR D2 though...)

While I have a nonread/intuitive scum read on you, that's no different from usual, so I'm tossing it out for the time being.

We can write off VP Baltar-scum after D1 and HR's flip, I think.

So there you are. Very easy, no stress. My kind of Mafia.

[Vi]

I can live with Sotty7 as Town after her pushes on HR D2.
If you have any meta tells on her, please tell me sometime <.<

So that cuts my scumlist down to one person.

Oh right. Until BloodCovenent gets replaced, everyone alive has to agree to lynch someone today (except the lynchee, obviously).

[Vi]

If you have any meta tells on her, please tell me sometime <.<

You tell me yours and I'll tell you

mine

hers.

HAY THAT'S NOT FAYRE

You tell me hers and I'll tell you... Vaya's. Guaranteed to work!

except when it doesn't

[Vi]

SlySly: What happened to 811?

That and he can't hammer hisself from L-3.

[Vi]

Take your time. We have plenty of it. Just don't

needlessly

wait forever.

[Vi]

Catching up on everything particularly important I've missed so far:

[Vi]

I want to feel bad about lynching Rosso, but then I remembered we have two dead cops.

Vi, who's da scum?

I want to fe--wait, no I don't. We lynched scum yesterday, and in the unwarranted, undeserved interest of staying polite I'll leave it there.

With all due respect, I would like a little more time to answer that question.

[Vi]

No problem. I was hoping today wasn't going to even be happing, so I can understand time to do some reading.

There's surprisingly little reading to do, actually. But I still would like a little more time.

Also, to answer Sotty7's question:

Night action choices are due to me via PM by the posted deadline. If I do not receive your choice by the posted deadline you will forfeit your action(s). (EXCEPTION: Compulsive actions will be randomized.)

With that said, there's nothing in the Role PMs to suggest any actions in this game are compulsive. So, maybe it doesn't answer the question. >.>

Unrelated and one of many vents that I'm trying NOT to flood the game with right now, but the most plausible explanation for the Doctor flip is that Rosso Carne never submitted an action. Speaking as someone who has been the designated LyLo lynchee for quite a while now - and didn't mind it at the time - that's reasonably frustrating, because with

two claimed Cops

and a Doctor this situation should never have happened. Not even close.

[Vi]

Hmm So it comes down to if the mod deems the mafia kill as compulsive then, which he probably doesn't.

...

fitz, the game won't go anywhere without you. Please continue.

[Vi]

While I continue to digest the game...feel free to revisit/elaborate/post your suspicions on your fellow mental patients as well.

You win a point for your effort in trying to cover up your lack of effort.

You have 20 hours.

[Vi]

@VP Baltar: Quit saying scummy things and/or being ABR.
You're in no position to complain compared to me, and I hate it when you proceed to rest on an implied sense of security for the sake of posturing when

I really would like a Town read on you right now

.

More coming, stay tuned, etc.

[Vi]

I just found out that I'm going to be V/LA from Friday on >_> so here's everything at once.

When I made my process of elimination Yesterday, I cleared two people based on their HowardRoark history (and in Sotty's case, not much more), one for being mod-confirmed innocent without bothering much with their history, and one for being implied innocent without bothering much with their history. One of those was a mistake that I caused, and I'm going to take back right now.

Consider the following modding dilemma. Starting D4 with no kill at all would have been the same as throwing the game for the scum; it would have logically implied that the absentee was scum. Meanwhile, Xdaamno-Cop was an obvious choice for the NK (and not at all random). With no replacement immediately forthcoming, it would not be out of the question for HowardRoark to proxy a kill for BloodCovenent on his way out simply to keep the game moving.

Therefore, I contend that BloodCovenent - and now havingfitz - is

not

confirmed Town.

---

Now, let's look at the trail left by fitz's predecessors.

Hyl - Nothing to see. Nothing particularly damning, nothing Town, voting VP Baltar for reasons I don't agree with, and a lot of generally hanging out without adding much.

BloodCovenent - VP Baltar scathed him for his stance on the HowardRoark wagon at the time, but take a look again:

I'm not really fond of the Howard wagon at the moment. IIRC Howard was VP's second vote. Since then he voted Otto, and then shortly after he went back to Howard. But what I don't understand is why go back to a wagon alone.

-I didn't like Cat's jump on the Howard wagon.

Cat, fine. But maybe because it's ten at night I don't understand his reason for staying off the scumwagon.

I

find

(more or less) think that Howard's play would be considered a null. Yea he hasn't contributed much to the game at all other than defending himself or examining his wagon. His lower activity could be due to one of a few things which I won't speculate on because I am not him. I don't know why he's not participating as actively as others. I presume it as town, mostly off of gut.

I can suspend my disbelief until the last sentence.

On Day 2, BloodCovenent "pressure votes" Xdaamno first thing. Sotty7 called him on it, and due to BloodCovenent's replacement request, we never did get that ironed out beyond the excuse. Actually, all three of us were questioning BC at the time he took leave.
In his next post (several days later) he jumped aboard the HowardRoark wagon at L-2, for...

I can agree with this to an extent. His questions are boring, bland, they don't have much content. What I mean by that is, they don't really make the questioned think too much, they don't pressure anyone hard. I guess i would call it, feign questioning?

His attempts to rebut VP Baltar's disbelief came to "I would have bussed him yesterday if we were both scum", which while difficult to evaluate would have been a terrible move strategically (especially with a claimed, if useless, Cop around).

And then we have fitz.
One thing that's really raising red flags is his repeated attempts to get US to do the work for HIM.

While I read up...could people provide their top two suspects?

While I continue to digest the game...feel free to revisit/elaborate/post your suspicions on your fellow mental patients as well.

Without our input - which I'm grateful for your cooperation on, btw - we got this:

My town--->scum spectrum goes from Sotty--->Vi.

This bothers me. Normally when people post a visual representation, they're referring to someone being --- this much scummier than someone else. That's the major reason you can't just say "Sotty is more likely Town; Vi isn't".
But even if you're not into that, let's go further.

Reasoning with either of those reads?

Will effort to get reasoning out today.

*though I did not take notes during my review...my sense (I know that is not a good reason for others to grasp) tells me she is town. Despite the fact she has been mafia and fooled me everytime [1] we have played.

*Still need to review VP and compare my thoughts on him to those on Vi. At first glance their voting patterns were very similar...though VP seems to have been a little more committed to getting rid of HR.

The main thing that concerned me were comments VP made on more than one occassion concerning the fact that no scum would bus their partner the entire game in a two scum set up. Which makes me of course think he is scum bussing his partner the entire game.

*1) This is the most qualified gut Town read I've read in a while. That last sentence would validate a later Sotty wagon if it became convenient.
*2) Notice that there are no reasons given for me being scum.
*3) Not bussing your only scumpartner is what most people call "good play"; it's an Open setup, these sorts of theories are entirely valid and rather bad ideas to disagree with if you can't back it up. If this is your only reason for believing VP Baltar is scum, it sounds like you

want

him to be scum

Last, take a look at this hammer on Rosso Carne.

I'll try to finish up my read tomorrow

and get my thoughts (or a vote) posted.

OK...did my first ISo on what appears to be the frontrunner for scum. Rosso Carne. He's made 20 posts and added absolutely nothing to the game. No content of any worth. I'll defer to the confirmed and presumed townies on his wagon and coupled with his lack of contribution..

Vote Rosso Carne

He finished his read on time and voted the next day? No, these posts were

six minutes apart

. We just didn't care at the time because it was Rosso Carne getting killed.

Notice the inconsistency in how much information he has. In the first post, he had not finished reading. In the second post, he was ISOing someone (normally something you don't do without finishing your initial read) and already referred to "confirmed and presumed Townies" (which would have required him to have been up to D3 when Xd cleared SlySly, which would have put him at the end of the read), whoever they were - notice that of the two "presumed Townies" that were not him at the time, one wasn't on the wagon at all (Sotty7) and the other is someone he's trying to accuse now (VP Baltar). And, really. A hammer as soon as you come in and before you finish reading? Claiming to be "not a patient person" doesn't seem to match his present behavior, what with not laying a vote when it's perfectly safe...

tl;dr

Vote: havingfitz

(L-2)

This is my last (and first) wallpost in this game. I will not engage in wall-to-wall combat.

[Vi]

My read on you left me feeling you could be scum. I said I was going to take another look at you. If/when I vote for you I will provide reasons

Or you can provide them now. So far you've said I'm your top suspect (multiple times, multiple ways), but not why.

As for not laying down a 'safe' vote at the moment...my suspicions are not as strong towards you or VP as they were towards RC.

Why not?

The last sentence was made jokingly and I do not see myself voting for Sotty as I think she is town

(or at least the least scummy of the three of you)

You did it again.

Without our input - which I'm grateful for your cooperation on, btw

"your" here refers to VP/Sotty, sorry
A 30-page game isn't that long, especially when most of it is whining.

[Vi]

I'm sorry, tubby, but it's only game-breaking in one case.

[Vi]

fitz, is your NK randomized if you don't submit it?

Hey wife-beater, you should really stop sometime.

[Vi]

Hyl - Nothing to see. Nothing particularly damning, nothing Town,

voting VP Baltar for reasons I don't agree with,

and a lot of generally hanging out without adding much.

I like Hyl's post/vote, and not just because it's on our favorite perennial scum candidate.

These quotes don't mesh well. Vi...?

Well, first thing: I was working in isolation during 885. Being called scummy for asking too many questions is a favorite nontell pushed on me, so my first reaction was to deny it and move on.
Looking at the vote and the surrounding circumstances again, I can sort of understand where VP Baltar-Town may have been coming from with questioning everyone without saying much himself, but at the same time I do feel that it was a bit much at the time. (In other words, the quote from 885 was a mistake. >.> )
Rereading some more, I'm starting to have a bad feeling about VPB's early-game play - especially since tubby's nonresponse doesn't validate my earlier theory and VP Baltar is ringing lots of proverbial alarm bells Today. Give me a little time to look into this, although what with V/LA I may not be able to post my results until the end of the weekend.

No Lynch is a bad idea by all accounts. All we'll get is the least controversial Townie killed (and we all have one "least controversial Townie" in mind, and for three of us it's not VP Baltar), a more unstable endgame (with 3 to lynch, votes can be cast more freely and a unanimous opinion is necessary to lynch), and a more "rigged" mislynch opportunity Tomorrow; while losing a mature fourth Town-driven opinion. With my recent concern that I may not have found scum, though, I'd like to pursue a different kind of No Lynch.

Unvote: havingfitz

[Vi]

Some notes as I peruse VP Baltar:

*No scum were on the initial Xdaamno wagon until HowardRoark joined in 96. {Cayke, Vi, Izzy, JDodge, HR}
**The Xdaamno wagon was announced well in advance of the game beginning, so scum saw it coming and could plan around it.
**Both HowardRoark and VP Baltar dodged the wagon, instead asking other people about it.
**Because there were no scum on the Xdaamno wagon until the end of Page 4, there was no chance that HowardRoark (and if applicable VPB) was going to target his scumpartner by questioning the wagon before then.
**(107) VP Baltar explained that by staying off the wagon and questioning around he could pick up who was reacting scummily about it. But he never mentioned his results - who he determined was actually acting scummily in relation to the Xd wagon! Even more interesting, by this time HowardRoark had jumped onto the tail end of the Xdaamno wagon (L-2) with this reasoning:

Xdaamno's post 60, post 77 & post 78.

considering VP Baltar had just gotten done saying that the Xd wagon was unlikely to hit scum. Why wasn't that mentioned?

*VP Baltar's question in 81 inviting the people who had not posted yet to talk about the Xdaamno wagon was functionally useless. (Think about it.)
*I'm not sure what the purpose of VP Baltar's questions to Xd on Page 3 was.

*JDodge pointed out an apparent contradiction here:

I’m reading Vi town right now though, if it means anything.

Really? Why's that? I don't think many people could get confident reads by page 4.

If you play with another player often enough, it sometimes becomes that easy,

Well, you're scum, so I think you have an unfair advantage at the town reads game.

The (unstated) reason for VP Baltar's vote was that HowardRoark didn't know that Qooq and me have never played together before, and was arguing against VP Baltar questioning Qooq's Town read on me by bringing up a possible meta between us from past experience.
But... that's not necessarily scummy, or at least not to the point of warranting a vote over Qooq. (If anything it would imply that Qooq (Sotty7) and HR are scum together.) Yet that was AFAIK the only time VP Baltar suggested that Qooq could be scum, but HowardRoark never left VPB's scumdar. I would suggest that this is early-game distancing.
*See also previous point about HR jumping onto the Xd wagon (L-2) when VP Baltar already said he didn't think HR was scum.

*(101) VP Baltar says he would never call someone Town on Page 4. From what I know of VP Baltar, I don't believe it (or at least I don't believe he would make such a sweeping statement).

*(121, 129) Izzy calls VP Baltar on a "slip". I'm not sure if the slip is any good, but notice that the only one questioning it is HowardRoark-scum. Twice.

---

I don't have time to go over the rest right now (the next thing I would do is question why VP Baltar went back to HowardRoark in particular after Otto claimed) so I need to fast-forward to what piqued my interest in the first place.

The major difference between Sotty and VP Baltar today is proactivity. Compare for instance Sotty7 858 - where she states clearly what her reads are and asks the mod about the pressing question of the Day - with anything VP Baltar has done today, which has mostly been chilling out asking for/letting people do work for him - in

every post

. If you really think 880 was made by someone who's interested in finding scum, you're off your rocking chair.

In addition, I'm concerned about this.

Unless, of course, the NK was randomized, in which case we'll speedlynch you and insta-win.

There's no way in heck the Cop kill was randomized.

VP Baltar's primary defense - and only piece of content today - has been that he couldn't possibly have been bussing HowardRoark throughout the game. But if you look, all of us voted HowardRoark at some point, and frankly everyone but me was on the HR wagon D2 without apology. So (from my point of view at least) someone

was

definitely bussing. My initial impulse was to accuse Sotty7 - and I did D4 - but after rereading I decided against it because of her continued effort to get him lynched D2. So then I looked at fitz, and the case is actually pretty nice, but if fitz is cleared by NKs - which realistically looks like the case given tubby's answer - then so much for that. Now I'm looking at VP Baltar, and see above.

---

And with that I place my life in your hands until Sunday.

Vote: VP Baltar

(L-2)

[Vi]

VP Baltar, when did you start seriously considering me as Your Lynch Candidate today? You didn't actually show any sign of actively moving toward me (beyond the casual "Vi or fitz" based on tubby) until I made the first move.

Although on a related note,

I did think about a no lynch but I figured that I would just be in the same position tomorrow as I am today. Having to chose between Vi/Fitz

with you (VP) being the likely NK.

What about fitz? What about you?

I am having a

really

hard time buying VPscum. I re-read day one and see him pushing on HR for pretty much the whole day. He does jump off wagon with JD, Otto and Cat votes but always finds a way back to HR apart from the day ending lynch of course. There is bussing and then there is

bussing in a game with one partner and the possibility of lots of power roles,

I just can't swallow that pill. It makes no sense for VPscum to do that. His pressure wasn't weak either he only seems to jump off HR when no one else wants to wagon with him.

Nobody expected "lots of power roles". When Otto claimed D1, I seriously thought that would be it... which is why the N1 hito kill continues to puzzle me (scum would have to think there was enough of a chance for there to be a Doctor in the setup to not aim for the Cop). Were you expecting "lots of power roles", nya?

What do you think of VP Baltar's way of handling the beginning of the Day?

I also feel pretty icky about Vi backing away from the comments made in post 871 once I caught her out. The explanation she gave just rubbed me the wrong way. Admitting she was wrong but with maximum damage control.

Well, first thing: I was working in isolation during 885. Being called scummy for asking too many questions is a favorite nontell pushed on me, so my first reaction was to deny it and move on.
Looking at the vote and the surrounding circumstances again, I can sort of understand where VP Baltar-Town may have been coming from with questioning everyone without saying much himself, but at the same time I do feel that it was a bit much at the time. (In other words, the quote from 885 was a mistake. >.> )

That just reads: "I was wrong in saying that but also a little right so it's not so bad" You can't have it both ways.

Sure I can~
This is -LyLo-. Whoever gets lynched here loses the game, and loses it for their entire team (for what my team was worth in this game <_<* ). Everyone has reason to act in self-preservation, and being the Designated Hypothetical LyLo Lynch, I have good reason to get an early start on it.

Besides, I

was

wrong

If you are ready to vote...why proclaim it but not do it?

Quickhammering is awesome and easy. Convincing a Townie to jump on someone at L-1 to end the game is hard.
There's no reason to say you're ready to vote (indicating a Final Answer that I'm scum) and not do it in this scenario, as the only things to worry about are
*me coming back and saying something mind-blowingly Townish (lol, not going to happen considering my choice is between Sotty7 and VP Baltar and he supports Sotty7)
*you being scum and quickhammering (which I don't think anyone believes at this point)
After all, if you are Town and pre-emptively hammer scum, I'm sure no Townie would complain about the hammer in postgame.

Vi on the other hand makes a few jabs at him, but she votes and unvotes him at L-4...which is pretty comfortable as scum.

Me jumping back on the wagon to put him at L-2 and saying VOTE HOWARDROARK ^.^ (443) clearly never occurred later.

I have urgent papers to grade, Edgeworth to watch, a short temper atm, and in spite of my streak of never getting lynched in LyLo (see previous comment on what getting lynched in LyLo means) no particular desire to make more of a concerted effort to help my team than I already have. I'll come back to the VP Baltar wall when I get to it, with zero promise of a wallpost. Vote stays where it is for now.

Cut by VP Baltar: lol

[Vi]

EBWOP for better reading comprehension:

I did think about a no lynch but I figured that I would just be in the same position tomorrow as I am today.

Having to chose between Vi/Fitz

with you (VP) being the likely NK.

You already said that the chance of the Mafia NK being compulsive was "slim". There's nothing to suggest it IS compulsive. I agree; that's why I moved on from my strongest case.
So... what's the choice over?

[Vi]

VP Baltar, when did you start seriously considering me as Your Lynch Candidate today? You didn't actually show any sign of actively moving toward me (beyond the casual "Vi or fitz" based on tubby) until I made the first move.

So, you're trying to paint it as OMGUS or something? I said YESTERDAY that you were on my shortlist of the final scum (even though I thought we were going to win with Rosso's lynch).

I definitely wanted to see what you had to say today precisely because of that. Needless to say, it looks scummy. Don't get me wrong, you've put in a good effort this game and I thought you were town for a long time, but PoE is a cruel mistress. You can self-hammer any time.

Why is what I said - take my previous post, for instance - scummy (more likely to come from scum than Town)?

You did say YESTERDAY that I was on your short list (I was on

everyone's short list

) for scum, but then why bother waiting so long to vote me?

I'm not self-hammering. I'm not out of hope - close, what with my fate resting in the now-confirmed-Town fitz, but not completely out.

Did you read half of that previous post, or just the sentence with your name and a question mark?~

@fitz: If the count becomes 2 vs. 2, then someone has to jump over and break the tie before the game ends. In addition, it would

guarantee

that one of the two people being wagoned is scum (as if scum is on either wagon, they can jump over to the other one

a la

quickhammer).

[Vi]

EBWOP: The fourth line (a snide remark) should be answered by the first line (a question). Apologies, that was unnecessary.

[Vi]

I'm not self-hammering. I'm not out of hope - close, what with my fate resting in the now-confirmed-Town fitz, but not completely out.

So you're claiming scum then?

Remind me of this one the next time someone says

my

reading comprehension is bad.

I did indeed read it. Most of it wasn't directed at me, so I don't know what you're expecting.

I'm

expecting

you to see if anything I'm saying to Sotty is reasonable. Of course, this only applies if you're Town, etc.

Cat was originally a pressure wagon (see Vi #101) (as was JDodge before him; the expectation was that they would post something Townish-looking and then I would go back to HowardRoark - which I hinted at a number of times in my snipes at HR - but that never happened) that took off after hito's Catvote/reasons.
On Day 2 I posted this--

I am interested in a HowardRoark wagon, but I don't want it to be the only thing I do. Thus, spreading the hate.

but I started to get the impression of a genuinely swamped player lost in the shuffle somewhere in the middle of it (see Vi #100 for corroboration behind the gut Town read I got), and I did particularly dislike Izzy's play (ironic in hindsight, though I don't think she ever posted WHY she disliked you).

[Vi]

Why is what I said - take my previous post, for instance - scummy (more likely to come from scum than Town)?

lol don't skip this

[Vi]

And that reduces today to a series of quaint misunderstandings.

Job well done, Sotty.

[Vi]

I don't hate you~
That was a very clean job. When I looked back and saw that you started the Catwagon, I was impressed.
What made you choose that avatar, though

fitz, I wouldn't recommend making those same moves upon replacing in again, but after I dropped the wall on you you started to come out looking Townish.
I'd like to see you as an original player sometime.

[Vi]

fitz, I wouldn't recommend making those same moves upon replacing in again

Which moves? The VP vote? Just sorry I didn't do it sooner and save you a few long posts.

The VP vote was a sensible move since nobody expected the Sottish Inquisition.
I was more referring to your impulsive Rosso Carne vote and your (apparently) baseless stances at the beginning of D5.

[Vi]

This is truly a town biased setup, IMHO . . .

I agree. At worst it's 2-10 mountainous, which is considered balanced (on paper...). At best... well, see previous comments about how scum should not have won this game just based on the setup.

I joined this game precisely because I was indebted to you, tubby. You don't owe me anything, especially after all the (nonetheless still deserved) griping I tried to hold back through the end of the game and am continuing to remain generously polite about now.

I think you made the right decision on clarifying the NK submission issue. I don't think you had to have minimal PM responses like you mentioned in your Role PMs, but whatever works.

I'm tired right now, but someone should tell VP Baltar that hito was already thirded for Funniest Player

[Vi]

I'm tired right now, but someone should tell VP Baltar that hito was already thirded for Funniest Player

You of all people should know it's important to back up your arguments with proper

evidence

.

*slams desk*

[Vi]

EBWOP: I fail Phoenix Wright forever. Previous post should be themed around--

[Vi]

Put the DS down and walk away. Breath.

now why would i want to do any of that

[Vi]

Put the DS down and walk away. Breath.

now why would i want to do any of that

Spring is nearly here! Go outside, be fruitful and multiply!

If I'm outside, I'm not here... What are you saying
Multiplying is a given since I'm a math teacher ^.^
Being fruitful... again, what are you saying?~