Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[don_johnson]

?conform

[don_johnson]

vote: werewolf

well, you figure it out.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote lewarcher

for excessive use of smilies. and yes, this is serious.

[don_johnson]

imo, one of the biggest challenges facing a scum player is "fitting in" during the rvs. i think scum may tend to "overcompensate for randomness" in their votes. i.e. they have to try a little harder than everyone else to make their votes look fun and random. not only was the smiley use excessive here, but it was also his

second

vote in the rvs. also, if you'll notice, the joke doesn't even fit right, as consig clearly confirmed in the post lewarcher is responding to. so yeah, its a serious vote. is it a "super serious not gonna ever change my vote no matter what happens" vote? i'll let you figure that one out.

[don_johnson]

quick response there, powerox. vote about "smilies" really shouldn't be confusing. especially since i explained it thoroughly. what about it "confuses" you?

[don_johnson]

i may move to the gonzo wagon. i am going to reread to see if this is necessary. lew's response has been acceptable. powerox: if you don't understand the words i write then there is nothing i can do about it. i can agree to disagree with you.

unvote

[don_johnson]

"timid" is a poor choice for a descriptor. i clearly stated "why" i wasn't voting. wanting to reread a thread so as to offer content with my vote is good form. would you prefer i vote with no explanation as to the nature of my vote?

[don_johnson]

I can agree to disagree with you.

Can you please clarify with what you mean with that?

if you don't understand what i meant when i spelled it out as clearly as i could, then we will have to agree to disagree as i don't think i can explain it any better. imo, 40 was as clear and concise an explanation as i can give.

---------------

werewolf: game is ongoing and shouldn't be discussed.

--------------

i don't see scumminess is mallow's vote retraction. if he wants to flesh out his reasoning i am all for it. his vote on lew does not have any indication of "humoring" in it, so i see where the questions arise, but i don't think backtracking off an early vote is necessarily bad.

post 35 is actually quite silly. how does unvoting prevent an "uneccesarily long rvs"? it seems to me that getting out of the rvs is done with serious votes or discussion, not just by dropping ones random vote in favor of... nothing?

gonzo 37 seems to imply that he agrees with dj's early serious vote, but honestly does not contain enough info to be 100% on that.

post 42 implies suspicion of lew.

i think implosion is missing the boat, but his questioning is consistent.

werewolf 46 doesn't make sense to me. not sure what is being implied unless it is a defense of "vote-hopping".

lew 47 is actually pretty bad. there was nothing odd about mallow's vote. did he sheep me? yes, but my point is as solid as it gets on page 2. this vote looks like nothing more than omgus on reread.

zhero 48 is useless.

consig 49 is useless. if you want the mod to do something, bold your request.

naaaa, don't care much about the pressure, the smilies stuff is just a tipical move to end the rvs, which is very much pro-town. I have seen worse than this, in some other games. At a given point you just need to start provoking one player using a "non-random" argument, no matter how silly. Smilies are just this LoL...
but mallowgeno jumped on it, so from my pov it is totally right to keep voting him.

this is a little contradictory. on the one hand, the original vote is a "tipical move to end the rvs, which is very much pro-town." so why is mallow's vote bad if all he is doing is helping to apply pressure on the "pro-town" vote? not sure about this, i guess from lew's pov i can see why he's voting and keeping the vote, but this reaction is less pro-town than i originally thought.

ah. gonzo 52 states just that.

for some reason, sapo answers the question directed at lew.

55 is actually a scummy backtrack. hm. glad i am rereading.

sapo 57 seems to be contradictory in that the vote on gonzo looks like defense of lew, but the latter half of the post is actually a bit condemning of lew. i am not liking the connection between sapo and lew here.

62 seems to alter the reason that lew is voting mallow. first the "sheeping" was scummy, now he's willing to drop the issue in exchange for content. i don't follow.

63 is weird. the explanation though is actually a little more substantial than i initially thought. "i hate the rvs" is actually sensical.

lew 66 makes sense.

i understand implosion vs. consig, but don't think its a big deal. consig should be given more time to provide content. if he is "new" then his actions are not scummy.

sapo 69 is bad. its kind of a prime example of what lew was trying to say about mallow's vote. its an attack on a player who is in a poor position with bad reasoning.

post 72. even worse sheeping. i think mallow's explanation, though thin, was certainly not "scummy". the jump on consig is odd. so zhero agrees that consig is "noob"? he agrees that we should "pressure" him? what good does it do to pressure a noob? only possible thing that comes from that is that the noob weaves his own lynch. do we get a bandwagon to analyze day 2? yes. but wouldn't it be more fruitful to pressure and/or lynch scum? indubitably.

post 74. so funny because is this is just what i was starting to think as i got to the bottom of this page. rereading is key.

zhero's posting is "oppurtunistic", for lack of a better word.

i see the case on consig when implosion lays it out, but i still think pressuring the noob is not going to help this game.

gonzo. i'm actually starting to really like you.

ox 89 is bad. plenty of content to analyze if you take the time. please reread and give us some feedback.

werewolf is sheeping. at least lew is asking pertinent questions. some players start an alt and play the noob card. it may be his blatant "buddying", but i'm wiling to give wolf the noob pass today(so far).

92 is well reasoned, but i don't think wolf is the play.

94: zhero jumps off the popular bandwagon(as its losing steam and being called "scummy"), and jumps on... a lurker?

getting caught up now, zhero/ox is odd. ox reacts as if there is no pressure. when your scumbuddy votes you, there is no pressure(unless its a late wagon hop bus).

implosion 99 isn't bad. this game is suddenly tougher to read.

oof. wolf 100 is bad. implying a connection on a player he's been buddying(and in the same post, no doubt) doesn't make sense. it also seems like he should be unvoting, but he lets it ride. of course, it does seem that consig has dissappeared at this point.

zhero 108 is another example of "oppurtunistic" with the implication of suspicion on dj. ox answered your question. yet you don't respond to it or move your vote.

111 is "oppurtunistic" and also includes the "i think x is scum, but let's lynch y" absolution of blame type statement.

caught up.

unvote, vote: zhero

sss, wolf are other choices i would be comfortable with. where is xenophon?

[don_johnson]

i don't have many comments on your 106. it seems like you and gonzo are disagreeing about things. this:

3) I said my opinion, you said yours. If I were scum, I would join the first BW regardless from the alignment of the voted player, and then I would cautiously get off.

describes zhero's actions imo. you should consider the zhero wagon. i'm not going to overly concern myself with connections on day 1. those are more useful after flips.

[don_johnson]

lew: i will take a closer look at 106 for you.

I unvoted Gonzoooooooo in that post. Lol @ you trying to establish some connection there.

not trying to "establish" a connection. just pointing one out. like i said, connections are more useful after flips have occurred. "Lol" is a poor response to just about anything. if you have something useful to say, say it. otherwise, ignore the comment.

Why are you so certain that Consig is town?

i don't recall saying consig was town or implying "certainty" in that direction.

[don_johnson]

zhero, please pay attention to context. it was my understanding that you agreed with the idea that consig was a noob. pressuring a noob is not very fruitful as they generally tend to weave their own lynches. if consig is scum, then thats a good thing, but pressuring him

because he's a noob

is more likely to produce a mislynch. if you actually think he's scum, then by all means, pursue the case. thats not what i saw happening, and i tend to think that gonzo saw the same thing.

i have a couple days off, so i will try to get an analysis of 106 for lew, however, my initial read of it was intepreting it more as a he said-she said type argument. but whatever.

replacements are good here.

[don_johnson]

we need good and active replacements.

i could be persuaded to the mallow wagon at this point.

sss: the move was "oppurtunistic" in the way that your vote went to the bigger wagon instead of pressuring your top suspect. shit happens. if you are sincere about mallow i am willing to listen. would like more from him atm.

we could have an extremely active town and an extremely lurky scum team.

working on getting to 106 lew, but its difficult because the argument just looks so opinionated on either side, but i will get to it by friday.

[don_johnson]

we could have an extremely active town and an extremely lurky scum team.

What do you mean by this?

i mean that scumhunting while so many replacements are pending may be bad for town. if scum is lurking, we could just self-destruct and hand the game away. i agree with this part of what you said:

Since we have 3 replacements pending, there really isn't much to do until they arrive.

i would like replacements to be found and to produce reads asap. it will be easier for them to do so if we don't rattle off another three pages of wall texts before they are found. i am going to work on what i promised lew, but until we get some fresh meat i'm not going to be flooding the thread.

[don_johnson]

1) A BW to L-2 on Day 1 is not poor play. In fact it is a standard procedure to investigate the reactions of the players (not just the voted one).
2) chill the f**k out. I am sick of players who react as if we were about to lynch someone on lylo, which we aren't.
3) That a BW on scum this early would not see this much agreement is false. In fact, it is extremely rare that the first BW of day one ends with an actual lynch.
4) I never used the argument of Consigliere voting a non-existing player to support my vote. If you want to criticise, please read the posts.
5) That this is not your first game is not "relevant", but it does not help because concealing previous games prevents us to know your meta. And since everybody reacts as if we just washed our faces with hot chili pepper sauce, I will already excplicitely state that this is not at all scummy, it just limits my skills at reading you.

1) I agree to a degree. I think you should be trying to form good bandwagons and not terribad ones in hopes of catching the scum at the tail end of it. Conversely, I've been pointing out who I think is scummy on the Consig wagon.
2) Ah no, if I think you're acting scummy, you're getting the full attack. I play to win and every lynch counts.
3)Your'e not making sense. My point is that scum are not going to immediately bus their buddies this early in the game and I appear to be the lone voice of reason in the wilderness of stupidity that is the Consig wagon. This is not town driven. That's what I'm saying.
4)I was not only speaking to you as you're not the only one on the Consig wagon.
5) That's fine. I don't think meta would be relevant anyhow.

1) The answers you gave me are acceptable only in part. I have motivated my vote on Consigliere, which you seem to keep ignoring, It was no strong motivation, but it was the best BW I saw until I read this post.
2) An excess of aggressivity in early game is a relevant element that can even look scummy. No one was lynching Consig, but it looked like you wanted us to unvote really bad. Deal with it.
3) I said my opinion, you said yours. If I were scum, I would join the first BW regardless from the alignment of the voted player, and then I would cautiously get off.
4) Your post 92 was directed to me. Deal with it, again, and do not lie so early in the game. Save it for later.
5) It always is.

^^ this reads like a disagreement.

He's also made lengthly comments that are overtly irrelevant - his "sugar hangover" comment, the Hunter S. Thompson comment.

This is hyperbole. "lengthy comments" probably can't be translated into one liners about HST. He is active lurking, but my problem is that people are trying to trump it up cause he's an easy target that probably isn't going to fight back. I don't like defending other players, but in this case you guys are grasping so badly at whatever and Consig is apparently too lazy to point out these issues that I had to intervene.

Long comments with no content qualify as filler. Filler can be scummy, but in some cases is just a naive mistake. Still, I do not like the way you deny the relevance of this point.

i think the point is that gonzo disagrees with what you have deemed a "relevant" point. filler might be scummy on page 19, but in the early game, many players goof around.

Are you saying that you are 100% sure that Consig is town? If so, how? You say it's because nothing separates him from others... well first of all, there are things. And second of all, even if so, so what? How would that make him definite town?

My "bumbling town" read on him, as I would call it, has been explained pretty thoroughly actually. The fact that his wagon exploded so quickly and so early in the game over weak arguments makes it unlikely to be on scum. Am I 100% certain? Of course not. But I am confident enough in that read to try and stop a bad wagon from being followed through. My goal is to lynch scum, not VIs. I'm starting to see that this player list has trouble distinguishing between the two. This is unfortunate because it's going to take you guys days to wake up and lynch a scum if this is the best you can play.

No, your read was not thoroughly explained. You just answered "he is just a confused newby" to all the questions.

being a "confused newby" constitutes an explanation.

saporo: has also been active in the discussion. Has also done nothing scummy that I see. Also probtown.

I was thinking town too, but now I'm starting to get skeptical. I felt like saporo was more in your face in the RVS stage and I liked that. Now she's being kind of wimpy and not pushing much for lynches. My town read keeps plummeting on her.

saporo is being active; besides, the only players who "pushed for lynches", as you weridly define the voting on day 1, are the ones on a BW that you criticize.

not sure what you are implying here. active =/= town.

tbh, i think you are both in the throes of a "disagreement". i don't see anything too scummy from either side. i don't see either of you making shit up, just not agreeing on what is important and who is doing what.

[don_johnson]

wolf makes me chuckle.

thad: if you think they are partners, can we start with werewolf? though i appreciate you noticing my rvs catch, i still harbor the idea that lew can be town.

Mallow, thoughts on the game?

[don_johnson]

i could get with a mallow wagon. but i think thad's questions should be answered.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote: mallow

competing wagons are good.

[don_johnson]

true, thad, but the mallow wagon still looks better. zhero could just be smelling himself bussing mallow.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote: zhero

i can dig it.

[don_johnson]

also, for the record, I'm keeping my vote on werewolf atm but I plan on voting Zhero in a day or two. I want everyone to have time to talk about the wagon before putting him at L-1.

talk away. bandwagon analysis makes more sense on day 2. after the flip. your hesitancy is scummy. your reason for hesitancy is scummy. please redeem yourself by placing zhero at L-1. let's get a zhero claim now. then discuss that.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote werewolf

i'll move back if theres a counterclaim. i would rather not push a third player to claim.

[don_johnson]

I'm on holiday, but will try to read and post by the weekend. Chesskid premature claim is antitown.

[don_johnson]

Explain 258 a bit more pls. The word "therefore" implies that your conclusion of handing out scumpoints to sk somehow stems from the idea that "big is useless." R u saying u think vig Shud claim?

[don_johnson]

Ha. Sk should be dj. Damn smart phone.

[don_johnson]

i suggest a voting block of dj, thad, lew, and gonzo.

vote: smash

not sure why yet, but i will vote with the above block. they are my current town reads. the rest of you can hang. lew: if you want to switch to mallow you may.

[don_johnson]

sweet.

the idea behind a voting block is to put votes on someone. lets pick someone.

[don_johnson]

its nice to see smash trying, but ultimately his posts are weak. he is still using the events of the rvs to condemn mallow. i don't think mallow's actions at that point in the game were terribly scummy. smash, on the other hand, has been calling players scummy but putting his votes elsewhere. now, when push comes to shove, he's contributing, but nothing of real substance. his vote on mallow could be scum picking on an easy target or scum picking on weaker scum. either way, i think we are back to:

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim. move on. it shall be done(come on voting block).

[don_johnson]

oh and volkan: i'm not a big linker. 40 is my opinion based on my personal experience as both town and scum. i will provide nothing to back up that statement. +5 is fine. vote smash. thank you.

[don_johnson]

Move on=proceed. Move forward etc. Obviously, how one ""proceeds" depends in the circumstances at hand. Questioning what I said there is lazy. Speaking of...

I have found scum. Don't feel the need to do much more at this time.

[don_johnson]

imo, what i said is not weird. imo, i find it weird that it is an issue for you. do you propose that we get a claim from smash and "not move on"? exactly how would that work? we all agree to stop playing the game and head over to the queue to sign up for others? you've lost me. the opposite of "move on" is to "not move on". if we don't "move on" the game goes nowhere. much like it is now. please vote smash, or present a case against someone else. or just sit there. and we can "not move on".

[don_johnson]

PO: i have only modded one game and i am pretty sure he was not in it. i have played with him before, but not extensively. a couple of the games were probably recent ones. he may have modded a game i was in, but if you are extremely interested you will have to do the research yourself. i have a pretty extensive history on the site at this point.

thad: thats fine.

on smash: he said mallow was scum but placed his vote elsewhere. imo that warrants my earlier statement of

smash, on the other hand, has been calling players scummy but putting his votes elsewhere.

lew: how was the sapo shot "not really a proof of big brains, imo"? didn't sapo try and lynch a claimed power role?

Your actual reason for voting for him(mallow) was awful, though -- "competing bandwagons are good" tells me zilch about what you really thought about mallow at the time of post #197. If it was a genuine vote, why did you think mallow was scum then? What made you willing to move over in #197, in preference to Zhero, where your vote was previously located?

i didn't have much of an opinion on mallow at that time if i recall correctly. he was avoiding providing content when asked several times by several players if memory serves. the vote was mainly to create competiing bandwagons and pressure a lurker. by creating two wagons on day 1, you help force people to form more than just one opinion, and also force them to choose between two players. there is much more chance of there being scum between the two players than there is of the one single leading bandwagon on day 1 flipping scum. therefore, two wagons are better than one as it increases the chances of hitting scum while also increasing the amount of relevant information town has to analyze on day 2 after the flip of whichever wagon wins out.

also, read post 142, zhero there admits his shortcomings. could be a null tell, but it seemed the root of our earlier disagreement may have been a theory disagreement and a misunderstanding, but i'd have to reread fully to jog my memory. i also threatened the mallow vote for several pages before i moved. i gave him his chance to participate and he did not take it.

fine. no voting block. whatever. theres 14 pages of content to sift through. i would like to lynch from the mallow/smash slots. if thats not going to happen, someone has to convince me to vote elsewhere. as of right now, i am not compelled. i will reread while we wait and see if there is anything else i feel like discussing. if i missed any questions just let me know.

vp baltar? how the hell are ya?

[don_johnson]

@don: oh come on, what scum would vote for a claim pr without even giving any reasons?

i would. in a heartbeat. and i'd play it off like a dumb mistake too. lynching power roles is probably the best possible outcome for a scumteam on any day given the circumstances. its worth placing oneself in harms way. check my sig. i'd like to think that my scum record is because i know how to play as scum. but whatever. if you think it a good idea to shoot you, i hope the vig is paying attention...

[don_johnson]

Lew: its not nonsense at all. First off, his actions led u to believe he was town which is a good thing if he was scum. Second, a lynched rolecop empowers mafia deputy to begin investigating immediately. So let's see: town loses a power role. Scum player gains town cred(according to your reading skills), scum gains a power role, and scum also gets to use its nk to try and find other town power. You sir, are scum or a complete fool. According to volkan, you are no fool. So...

[don_johnson]

also:

I'll have to do a reread, but from what I've read just now about Don, he seemed to be fairly helpful at the beginning of the game,

but recently began to just throw his vote anywhere

.

the bolded is comical. since the start of day 2 i have laid one vote(on smash) and expressed a willingness to lynch the mallow slot. i produced an idfea for a voting block of four players and expressed no suspicion in the direction of certain others. the only statement i made that fits this description

at all

was my iso 24, but i think i have made it clear all day where my suspicions are and have been. stating that i'm willing to lynch out of the players who are

not

my town reads is not "just throwing" a vote anywhere. its more like "clearly stating my position".

[don_johnson]

Your theory contemplates a non-realistic amount of wifom. And besides Gonzooo is right, this discussion is pointless. Saporo already died, saporo already flipped town.

whats non-realistic about it? have you

never

seen scum play aggressively? whatever. how is this discussion "pointless"? we have a player in this game who is touting your abilities as a player, and yet your opinion on this matter points to you being extremely naive and forgiving for in thread behavior. i would like volkan's opinion on your belief that scum would have no interest in lynching a claimed a powerrole. i don't think a "smart" player would read sapo's "accidental" vote and immediately clear him as town. if anything, it makes him

even more

of a null read which makes him an excellent shot for the vig. but whatever. smash's ridiculousness should be earning him a noose. the fact that the wagon seems to have fierce opposition should be telling you something. even if smash is town, he certainly isn't oozing town. defending him at this point is just weird. same with mallow. both slots are suspicious. but whatever...

[don_johnson]

your options are narrow minded. some town are stupid. sapo placed a claimed town pr at L-1. that opens the door for a pr mislynch. their defense of their action was to "play stupid". playing "stupid" is an easy way for scum to coast through a game committing a host of scummy actions without ever having to answer for them. but whatever. by stating "this is the last ml before lylo. This is the starting point for all my considerations. Smash was at L-1; now he is at L-2. We have time. I want to use it." you are agreeing that a player at L-1 is in danger of a lynch. therefore, sapo did, in fact, place a town pr in danger of being lynched. if it wasn't a big deal then, why are you unvoting now? do you really have that much of a town read on smash? i just don't see it. also, you seem to be working off the assumption that smash will be a mislynch. if you are assuming that then you cannot say "i don't have that much of a town read on smash." which brings us back to "why are you unvoting"? what are you worried about? have smash's recent posts changed your mind, and if so, which ones and why?

[don_johnson]

Not sure how to answer the meta questions. I don't believe I hav a reliable meta. My style and amount of contribution depend on many variable factors both in game and rl. I hav already stated my suspects and who I'm willing to lynch atm. I have not reread the thread yet. When i do I'll let you know if anything has changed.x

[don_johnson]

Perhaps I am playing poorly, dunno... I am having some big shit happening irl

AtE.

ALso:he proposed a voting block formed by 4 players: if this had worked, it would have immediately put the block's target at L-1.

wow. you can add. the purpose of the voting block was to do just that. there wasn't anything clandestine about it.

Finally, smash has built a more or less convincing case against him, and it does not feel like he is just attacking the player who votes him. Perhaps it is a bus, but if it is, then DJ would be scum as well.

hahahahahahahahahahahahha. convincing? which part? the part where smash points out that dj does the opposite of the scummy thing he could have done? or is it the part where he rescinds his original case of "dj is just throwing his vote around" and then gives a nice summary of what dj has done without adding in any fruitful analysis as to why what dj has done is scummy, or hoe any of those actions could have benefited scumdj? you are a laugh attack my friend. the whole "omgz its a busszz" is priceless.

He's been dancing around mallow all game, but never applying real pressure there.

i had a mallow vote day 1 for about 36 hours. today he is lurking/being replaced. what sense does it make to pressure a non-existant player? when we have a replacement, i can interact, right now, it seems like a pointless push. especially when smash is available. i do like lew jumping to smash defense and implying implosion/volkan/dj. its a nice galvanizing step. especially considering he is also accusing smash of bussing. its also nice how he avoids the whole "if dj flips town then..." cause that would mean he'd have to suspect PO/Gonzo and... mallow or smash? i'm going to laugh if i nailed scum in the rvs.

anyhoo...

mod: can we get a votecount?

[don_johnson]

not misquoting. you said smash could be bussing. if you want to explore your options, why do you choose to leave out the "dj is town" option.

Unlikely that don could be jumping on a town. If smash were lynched and flipped town (we have a ml, if vig isn't an idiot), then he will be in a very bad situation tomorrow.

^^ what did this mean?

you obviously had some sort of a scum read on smash, no? if you did, then why do you now find it scummy of me to want to put said player to L-1?

pbp of the smash case:

--------------------------------

Don

on page 2 votes for lew because of smilies.
on page 4 he returns, but doesn't comment on anything that has happened, only defending his vote by saying

quick response there, powerox. vote about "smilies" really shouldn't be confusing. especially since i explained it thoroughly. what about it "confuses" you?

what exactly "happened" that you feel i should be commenting on at that point in the game?

after the above quote, he removes his vote,

as the wagon obviously didn't pick up steam

.

bolded is the add-on commentary opinion. what i posted was "lew's response was acceptable". so again, so far the case is basically a summary. kind of like a book report one might put together in the fourth grade.

he also suggests going to another reason, but says he has to read over the game. sounds innocent,

but could be that he wants to test the waters and see who people would agree with a wagon on.

at the time there was a 4 person Consig wagon, but it probably would have been scummy to join that wagon so suddenly. something interesting to note is that gonzoo did not have any votes on him at the time.

anything "could be". our job is to find out "what is". this is just speculation. and funny, here smash describes a move to the consig wagon as something that might be "scummy". did consig flip town? how do we know that consig is not, in fact, scum? this is a grand assumption here. PO has been posting town, but if smash thinks the move to the consig wagon would be scummy, and that dj didn't do it, then this part of the case should read:

DJ ISN'T SCUMMY.

moving on...

comments like this irk me. He shows that he's willing to go on the mallow wagon, and jumps on the zhero wagon once the case is brought up again, and a second person votes mallow.

it "irks" you? how? why? if i recall correctly, i was one of the pioneers of the zhero wagon. my iso 7 is wall of text which clearly explains my move to the zhero wagon. dismissing it by describing my move to the wagon as a mere "jump" is slightly off.

looking back at the block. lew already has a vote on me, and it's obvious that TheAdmiral and Gonzooo also thinks im scummy. Just as votes and ta-da! insta-wagon! just add votes! but on a more serious note, he gets away with a vote on me, saying "he's not sure quite why" and trying to persuade 3 more votes on me. he pretty much wants to say you guys do the work, I'll vote with you.

and here is the "convincing" part? this sounds like a description of how one goes about getting a suspect lynched. you encourage others to vote with you, while voting one of your top suspects. is it suddenly suspicious to try and organize the lynch of a suspect in the game of mafia? how would you describe other wagons? like mine for example. i have just accumulated a couple of votes. is it an "insta-wagon"? and if so, is that scummy? all this is is more "summary". summary =/= analysis.

scum-tastic. i used the unvote from rvs because first mallow says he agrees with you, then unvotes, saying he was just trying to humor you. you said the vote was serious.

mallow agrees, therefore his vote is serious

. then he takes it back completely. i don't call this rvs

ooh. he's broken out the big guns. descriptor words. "scum-tastic". let's break this down:

i used the unvote from rvs... i don't call this rvs

he is still using the events of the rvs to condemn mallow.

your case is tied into how mallow acted in the rvs. his initial backtrack from his rvs vote is the main gist of your entire case against him. your failed logic doesn't absolve you(its bolded). in rvs, people do things for reactions and such. people work to create pressure. mallow

may

have been doing just that. do you still feel strongly that mallow is scum?

it could be scum picking on an easy target, ok. you could also be scum picking on an easy target, someone who a few players said they found scummy, and not posting much of a case yourself (aside from the above, which is not strong).

logic fail. can't say my case and your case are similar and that my case is not strong, but then vote me. its just silly.

also, as was mentioned, the claim and move on wording is weird.

weird how?

Even if I was, there are two more scum out there. and you feel you don't need to do much more at this time? How is that helpful?

if you are scum, then i am satisfied with the job i have done. finding scum is helpful. one at a time is the best i can do.

yes, that warrants your statement. You fail to see that i continued to say mallow was scum and said i would return with a bigger case. I've been calling a couple people scum at once, and putting my vote on one of them. so yes. i have called mallow scum and put my vote elsewhere.

did i miss the "bigger case" on mallow?

you've fine with lynching either mallow or me? mallow is my top scum read. you did express interest in voting mallow, when you said competing wagons were good.

By doing that you rid yourself of being on a mislynch.

But your read on mallow mustn't have been very strong, was it? because when Zhero claim, you went to the werewolf wagon, thinking now that Zhero wouldn't be lynched, you would do well with a werewolf lynch.

please explain the bolded. i am unclear as to what you are implying and i would like clarification before i respond to this section. also, why have you done nothing to convince me to vote mallow?

[don_johnson]

quote fail, but you should be able to figure this one out.

[don_johnson]

implosion looks like he has a nice safe vote nestled in between all the discussion. i'll have to look back and see the case on purple. they are reading town to me, so...

[don_johnson]

i think i'm moving implosion up the scumlist. i didn't catch it the first time around, but he initially questioned my vote on lew saying he "could see where i was coming from" but that he thought it may not be that big a deal. then his consig case was based entirely on the idea that:

Where the heck I'm coming from is that the mafia has a specific incentive to look like something that they are 100% not. If posts contain specific attempts at blending in that do not contain useful information, it's scummy.

which is basically identical to my reasoning for the initial lew vote. just because consig posted a little later in the thread, does not exclude him from being able to be extended the same "repreive" that he gives lew. he says lew's post "may be just a bunch of smilies". but he never gives consig that benefit of the doubt.

just reading a few iso. full thread reread later. but in any case. lew and implosion both seem to be looking worse as this day drags on. smash could still fit as the third scum, but reading him he could just be apathetic town. not enough evidence to take him off the lynch list yet, but certainly an

unvote

for now.

vote: implosion

until further notice.

[don_johnson]

tl;dr OMGUS. Nicely done.

[don_johnson]

Ill pbp your post later, but i'd like some other opinions on it before I slay it.

[don_johnson]

funny. lew was worried about us being able to use our full week earlier. so much so that he was uncomfortable with smash at L-1. yet now, he leaves me at L-1 and goes V/LA until two days before deadline. any reason you're leaving me in quicklynch range while you sort your rl problems out?

[don_johnson]

I didn't say anything about "faking" problems. You don't see the irony of lew's play? And yes. L-1 with possible lurking scum is 100% in danger of a quicklynch.

[don_johnson]

so yeah. i'd like some other players opinions on the case presented against me. particularly volkan and gonzo. it would be nice to get mallow replaced. i have a busy weekend so i won't get around to shredding implosion until sunday night/monday or so. if you guys haven't posted i'll go ahead and do it. i'm surprised gonzo doesn't see the double standard lew just employed. i have always taken gonzo/vp to be a thinker. please understand that i don't have a problem with lew's vote being on me while i'm at L-1, it just doesn't jive with what he said earlier regarding having smash in the same position. and going v/la while you're on a bandwagon that is sitting at L-1 is not good town play. there is no reason why town lew wouldn't simply remove the vote and replace it with an FoS or some such similar posted sentiment. if he's coming back two days before deadline, he would have plenty of time then to replace the vote. but whatever. i'd like other opinions. i'll have more after the weekend. i'll claim on threat of hammer.

mod: third for extension.

[don_johnson]

volkan: what i mean is, do you think its something more than coincidence that both the players i have accused today have moved their votes to me in response? have you read either of their cases against me? do you think their points are valid or no? like i said, when i get the time i am going to shred implosions post, but i would like to see what others think as i will find complacence without response a bit scummy.

[don_johnson]

You don't see the irony of lew's play? And yes. L-1 with possible lurking scum is 100% in danger of a quicklynch.

Well, my guess would be that if lew had some serious things going on IRL, then strategizing for a game of mafia was pretty low on his list. But anyhow, he unvoted you so I guess you can relax.

at no point was i not relaxed. you seem to have missed the entire reason for my earlier post. but whatever. his rl problems weren't overwhelming enough to keep him from checking in on the game and unvoting, and they weren't serious enough for him to replace, so pointing out that he was willing to leave me at L-1 after professing his disdain for the smash wagon being at L-1 even though he was still suspicious of smash at the time, is all i was doing.

@ThAdmiral and volkan - what are your thoughts on the dj wagon?

^^ this. i'm not sure why everyone is avoiding this issue. both smash and implosion have posted cases against me, and noone seems interested in addressing them.

@smashbro - where are you at? You haven't said anything since the attention shifted away from you? Lurking and crossing your fingers?

its funny how that works.

[don_johnson]

Fair enough. What are your thoughts on implo and smash?

[don_johnson]

Not making a case yourself + getting others to vote = scum.

false.

By voting for a competing wagon, you allowed yourself to avoid putting a vote on the werewolf(town) wagon, and therefore the scrutiny that comes the say after. I'm sayign that your move to mallow was just so that when werewolf (the more likely lynch) would probably flip, you would have hands clean and a suspect for the next day already.

only problem here is that i was on the wolf wagon. so i didn't "avoid the scrutiny".

what do you think of implosion?

[don_johnson]

i think its a relevant point that neither implo or smash has made a decent point in regards to their votes on me. there is no real analysis in their posts. i will be shredding implo this evening.

gonzo: one of your earlier posts gave me the impression that you were leaning towards me because i was being more "logical" in this game than when we had previously played. can you flesh that out for me? i am doing my best to avoid being lynched today. and it doesn't make sense to give someone scum points if they are playing more "logical" than in a game when they were scum, no?

i mean, as it stands, the two most oppurtunistic votes made today(smash and implo on dj) seem to be drawing very little scrutiny. in the meantime, i am being scrutinized for attempting to create a voting block of players i had town reads on at the time. i think the resulting discussion has been helpful and i believe we have created alot of connections today, and i thinkn if we lynch right we could blow this open.

if its between me and smash, then my vote obviously goes to smash, but i would really like implo to be looked at here and my post later will explain why, but it seems noone even addressed my earlier point about his soft play on day 1. he gave lew a pass for excessive smilies but condemned consig for joking around and posting off-topic. now, on day 2, we have lew abandoning the smash wagon, and both smash and implo dropping reactionary votes on me. i don't know, it would be bold to call the whole scum team here, and i actually think that smash might be the town among them, but i certainly think the three of them should be the ones under the microscope today. the mallow slot, aside, those three have been making the "oddest" and "oppurtunistic" moves so far. i may have tried to start a voting block, but i was the first one on the wagon. and have since moved to a new suspect.

anyhoo, this:

Not making a case yourself + getting others to vote = scum.

is inherently false. just look at my sig. i will be the first person to tell you that i have an unreliable meta(though some of you seem to think it will help), so i will appeal to my sig to disprove the above theorem. the theorem itself states that "not making a case yourself" plus "getting others to vote" equals scum. do we need to define "equals". it implies that a player who does not make a case, but tries to get others to vote

is always

scum. look at guys like empking, andrew94, drmyshotty, etc. they do it all the time, and they are not

always

scum. if you go by my record, you could read my games and find that i have more likely than not committed the above offense(left side of the equation) at least once in all of my games. and yet i have only been scum in less than half. not only is the above equation illogical, it isn't even remotely reliable. there was no evidence provided to support it(much like the rest of smash and implo's cases). in any case, implo comes later.

[don_johnson]

Another "dj is scum" with no reason why.

[don_johnson]

procrastination? interesting.

i was trying to encourage independent thought, and i had an extremely busy schedule through the weekend. but in any case. nice parroting.

-----------------

Was writing this on and off and/or multitasking for the past couple hours.

Summary of everything since my last post:

dj 311: calling someone lazy then saying you don't feel the need to do much. INTERESTING. Also shenanigans about the whole "move on" thing, which is still really weird.

why is "move on" weird? calling shenanigans doesn't cut it. its a semantics argument. null tell at best.

dj 317: o_o.

317 is a perfectly ok explanation. if you have an issue with it. speak. emoticons are a waste of space without a post to attach them to.

Smash 319: nothing really new. Not a terrible post, but it does contain more mallow tunneling.

way to glaze over one of smash's longer posts. and so continues the book report...

vollkan 324: nothing particular of note. Explaining his system, questioning/responding to those with high scores.
Purple 327: another fairly normal post, and a good example of Purple's overall protownness with legitimate points.

purple asks me to confirm my own meta stating that "its too much work" to do it themself. how is that prot-town? they might as well have said "hey, are you scum? i could work at it, but i'd rather not..." not exactly protown from my pov. his follow up of generic questions doesn't cut it either. my move to zhero was well documented. i don't find PO's post "scummy" per se, but i find it interesting that you pass it off as town when it really is just a bunch of questions from a lazy player who could have easily done a little research instead of asking the questions. but whatever. this is a very nice book report you have going.

don/lew 334-344ish: Gonzoooo 337 sums it up nicely in one sentence. This strange conversation is counterproductive if anything, it'll just help the scum find the vig. Unlikely that they're both scum, but 1 out of don/lew is likely for rolefishing. lew also did rolefish at the beginning of the day, but I can see it as accidental. This conversation on the other hand went on for

way

too long. don for the more likely scum, because of (and someone said this already) his continuation of the conversation in 342 after lew tried to curtail it in 340. The whole back and forth was idiotic and shouldn't have happened in the first place.

ok. so one out of the two of us are rolefishing, but dj gets the scum points why? writing 3432 off as a "continuation" of the conversation is poor form. 342 is a very well thought out point that i bring up. it is taking into account the interactions of a few players and trying to see if their explanations and posts add up.

please explain how post 342 is in any way anti-town and/or rolefishing? also, please explain why you accuse both me and lew of a conversation which

could be construed

as rolefishing and yet condemn me while giving lew a pass not only on the conversation in question(which he started), but also for this alleged rolefish you accuse him of earlier in the day. you see, you seem to be doing what smash is doing. picking me over other players when the scum points aren't adding up. your case is forced and lacks any pertinent analysis.

Smash 346: this post is pretty legit. Good arguments, etc. 346 also contains a don case, which is good, since don has been getting scummier and scummier.

this post was refuted. which points of smash's do you think are legit?

vollkan 348: another unremarkable post, especially for its size. vollkan really stopped analysis for the most part after his reread, but I think that's a personality tell, though I'd prefer an opinion with meta experience of him. Also relevant in the context of Gonzoooo 349.

in other words, "i'm not going to mess with volkan."

lew 351: specifically the first thing he says. It's good that he's trying to cut off the conversation, specifically because I think he's doing it more in a way to avoid the conversation than to avoid the question.

lew started the conversation. now he gets town points for ending it?

On the other hand:
Purple 352: a blatant accusation of rolefishing directed at lewarcher (at least that's the most notable thing IMO). Something like this needed to come from someone at some point. I really think one of lew/dj is likely scum, because I doubt a conversation like what transpired would happen between 2 mafia, but it just seems like pointless rolefishing on one of their parts and a need to continue the conversation for the other. Not much else of lew makes me suspicious, so I'm inclined to look at don for scum.

at this point you are ignoring the possibility that both lew and i are town. again "don is scum", but no reason as to why. lew was saying "vig has no brains." dj was saying "vig shot was legit". which of those two statements do you think has more potential to draw out a vigilante?

dj 354: essentially, he's saying he has no meta. Hrm.

prove me wrong. i've never been lynched correctly on a meta case. also, all players inquiring as to my meta are asking

me

the questions. noone bothered to look for themselves. thats not my fault and its not my responsibility to "create" a meta.

dj 359: honestly, not much notable here. He refutes Smash's case.

I still think don is scummy however

, mostly because of what I already brought up in my last posts and

also because of the possible rolefishing incident

.

359? what happened to 357? oh yeah, it wouldn't fit into your case...

please refer to the question above in regards to the "rolefish". the first bolded part is what really seals the deal for me. "don refutes smash's case, however, he's still scummy". in other words, even if dj does townie stuff and posts well, i still think he's scum for my previously stated reasons and the rolefish. post 346 was "legit" according to implosion. if its "legit" then how did i refute it? and if you're going to say that i didn't refute it well, then why mention it at all? and why then include the word "however"? it don't make sense buddy, you're scum trying to cherry pick a case. you are ignoring the posts of mine that have seriously relevant content, condemning me for things that another player has done more of, and basically producing no original ideas as to why i am scum or how my actions have benefited scum.

dj 363: thing is, Consig never

did

anything. lew did.

consig had five posts. could he be scum avoiding an issue? maybe. could he be poor town? sure. null tell at best based on those posts. in other words, you took the easy target.

Still somewhat suspicious of Smash (alliteration unintentional). Purple reads town except for that one blemish that I can't quite overcome. Growing suspicion of ThAd, and also possibly vollkan based off of Gonzoooo 349. Gonzoooo for town. lew for PROBABLY town,

because his rolefishing looks like it could be accidental

to me and nothing else he's done is scummy imo. mallow's slot is still probably town, but we'll see his replacement.

this makes me chuckle. i'll repeat it, and i'd like everyone to answer it:

lew was saying "vig has no brains." dj was saying "vig shot was legit". which of those two statements do you think has more potential to draw out a vigilante?

understand that i am not making a case against lew for rolefishing(though one could be made). i am pointing out that implosion is accusing me of rolefishing, while giving lew a pass for the above statement, and some other alleged incident. in other words, lew gets two passes for rolefishing. dj is condemned. if you guys can honestly answer the above question and say that my statement had more potential to out a vig than lew's did, then i will withdraw my vote from implosion. his case is fabricated and entirely lame. thank you and good night.

[don_johnson]

You missed the point. The leg work you did after that post is irrelevant to the fact that implosion wrote you off as town. The post wasn't dripping town my friend. And if you want I can defense the meta statement. Gonzo is referring to ONE game we played as scum together and not even drawing a logical conclusion. Stop being selfish and try to see the bigger picture. Thanks.

[don_johnson]

I'll post a bit more later but I just want to point out that meta cases are generally fail. For a meta case to have merit, one must assume a certainty of continuity in ones play from one game to the next. There are too many variables involved for it to be logical. More in depth later.

[don_johnson]

I read some meta of don johnson. I discovered two things:

1) he uses voting blocks when he is town;

2) he is a fierce opposer of discussing roles when he is town.

i have been town in 32 completed games. how many have you read? how many times have i used a voting block in all 32 games? in how many of those games did i "fiercely oppose" discussing roles?

i have advocated massclaims before. i have claimed early before. i have requested early claims before. all as town.

i have tried to start two voting blocks if memory serves, this being the second. i think i have played in four games with blocks(including this one).

why did he used a probably stupid statement by me in order start a discussion on vig?

why did you make a "probably stupid statement"? please do not shift the blame to me when you clearly posted about the issue first. and exactly what about the "discussion" was scummy(if thats what you are implying)?

on the voting block: whether or not it created a situation which placed a player at L-1 should be only mildly relevant. the idea of a voting block is to create pressure in a unified direction and to secure lynches. the voting block was not enough to lynch, but enough to secure a majority so that the target would feel pressured to respond and would also be in range of being lynched if necessary. again, there was nothing underhanded or clandestine about my suggestion.

Town voting blocs have been in fashion lately based on site meta, with SpyreX being one of the origin points I believe. It's really only a matter of time before scum abused it as a "townie" move. I think it's a null tell at best.

^^ sensible.

more later. favorite tv show is on.

[don_johnson]

Well, I never claimed it was a solid case based on more than a strong gut feeling about this, and if you're demanding more from me on this case you aren't going to get it. I'm sure I could go back and read his iso and attribute scum motives to many of his actions, but I feel I've hit the high points of it already without wasting so much breath.

He's playing a conservative game here that is designed to get mislynches and not rock the boat

.

do you think smash and implosion are town? and how exactly am i not rocking the boat? if this is our last mislynch before lylo, why are you so willing to vote on a case that isn't "solid" and seems to be based mostly on gut by your own admission? hows about you go back through my iso and attribute that "scum motivation"?

This is AtE. Also, I don't think you can consider smash's vote on you all that opportunistic considering I was the only one on the wagon.

i disagree. smash's vote was omgus with a weak case behind it. hows about you address his case on me? or implosion's for that matter. i was pointing out that the suspicion seems to be pushed in my general direction when there is much more "scummy" stuff elsewhere.

I don't understand the bolded, what is the other game you are referring to?

cowboy bebop. we also played that western style game where we had dayvig's. but i thought you were referring to when we were scum together in bebop.

LLL was a game i replaced into reluctantly. the game interested me early on, but by the time a replacement was needed the game was terribly long. it was fun and i think i did a good job keeping the heat off of my slot, but i can only think of maybe one other game where i played similarly at all to that one. pointing out that a scum player is trying to do things that appear protown is like saying the sky is blue. i don't really get where you're goiong with this "meta" case. if you want to make a meta case, you need to read through at least 60%(28) of my games before i think you would have anything remotely statistically reliable. and at that point i don't even think it would be close. the way a player plays in a game depends on a lot of variables:

1) the mod and how interesting they make the flavor.
2) the rules, special abilities
3) the number of factions
4) the players role and alignment
5) the number of players in the game
6) the relative length of the game compared to a players attention span.
7) the other players who are in the game, their playstyles, and whether or not they are familiar with each other.

etc. etc.

point being. stop dicking the dog and start looking at

this

thread and tell me who you think is scum. both yourself and lew are dropping off my townlist for this incessant obsession with meta.

new voting bloc: volkan, thad, PO, dj. but whatever. i have a busy week ahead. hopefully we can get a replacement soon.

[don_johnson]

Posting from phone at work.

FYI: Gonzo will be shredded this evening. Poor form, my friend, poor form.

[don_johnson]

i'm not concerned with the voting block. thats why i typed "but whatever". so anyway,

gonzo: i haven't been "soft" at all. i've been taking on anyone who wants to tangle. so far, i don't believe anyone has brought a solid case against me. PO just pointed out that lew's meta case sounds okay but lacks the proper evidence. and thats been my main point about my attackers. noone is bringing any evidence. now you don't seem to want to bring evidence. in fact, i don't think i'd be out of bounds to say that you are avoiding it. but i'll post more on that later. i'll be delivering a nice pbp to your earlier post.

also, you seem to be trying to push the town into an either/or direction with both smash and myself. at this point, smash is slowly moving off my scumlist and into the inneffective town category. trying to make it a 1 v 1 when we have plenty of time left(no mallow replacement yet) is just poor form. you should know that. you should also realize i'm going to be ripping you a new one for your misrep and avoidance. but whatever. i have things to do. talk later.

[don_johnson]

For a meta case to have merit, one must assume a certainty of continuity in ones play from one game to the next. There are too many variables involved for it to be logical.

You're saying you do not have continuity between your games?

correct.

I actually agree with don that the points lew raises are null. They are too specific to be used as any kind of meta.

good/

why did you make a "probably stupid statement"? please do not shift the blame to me when you clearly posted about the issue first. and exactly what about the "discussion" was scummy(if thats what you are implying)?

"you did it first" is not an acceptable excuse, particularly when you know better. As far as what was scummy, poking at 'who da vig be' is pretty fucking scummy and you both deserve scum points for it. I should have had to come in here and tell you to knock it off.

its not "you did it first." this is misrep. please quote where i "poked at 'who da vig'". also, please answer my earlier question: which of the two initial statements do you feel had the most potential to out a vig, lew stating "vig has no brains", or dj stating "i think the shot was warranted." then we'll talk.

do you think smash and implosion are town?

I'm not sold on either one by any means. I've stated so several times.

then why are you not looking into implosion? you state that a 1v1 between smash and dj is pro-town. can you please exaplin why again? maybe the reason the wagons haven't taken off is because scum doesn't want to push too hard for a town lynch. there is no discernible evidence to suggest that townsmash and towndj do not coexist.

how exactly am i not rocking the boat?

You haven't been pushing original cases or angle for most of the game. I don't see you trying to look at things from multiple angles and genuinely figure stuff out.

If you had your way, we would have lynched smash already and that would have been that, for good or ill.

I do have an expectation from your play and if I see well short of that expectation, it's going to raise red flags for me.

i've switched my town reads around, i've switched my scum reads around. i have engaged every active player with questions and answers. also, how can you state the bolded? mine was the first vote on the wagon and i suggested creating a voting block to create pressure on him and move the game forward. the resulting discussion has flooded the thread with ionteractions and created galvanizing reads(which will most likely be dependent on todays outcome.) i never suggested we lynch smash straight off, i advocated getting a claim first, and i have since moved to another couple suspects. this is complete misrep of my play.

if this is our last mislynch before lylo, why are you so willing to vote on a case that isn't "solid" and seems to be based mostly on gut by your own admission?

Because I feel it's the strongest case. I think some of the points against smash have been trumped up beyond their value. No offense to him, but he doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to the mafia playing. I do see scum motivations in some of what he's done, but I also see VI-town play.

again, please provide the evidence to back up these statements. where is this "scum motivation" you see in smash's play? if you see him as VI, why is it odd when i say the same thing?

hows about you go back through my iso and attribute that "scum motivation"?

I think you know as well as I do that this is easy to do. It's easy to argue semantics with someone and bend their play to fit your preconceived mold. Believe it or not don, I still have an open mind about today's lynch. I am pressuring you to better suss out the situation.

"semantics"? again: please go back through the thread and produce what you believe to be "scum motivations" for my actions. you are basically saying that you can produce a case against me, and when i call you out on it, you try and frame it as a semantics argument. produce your case, so far all you have is a "gut" feeling based on horribly incomplete meta.

smash's vote was omgus with a weak case behind it. hows about you address his case on me?

So? Doesn't mean it's opportunistic, just that it's a shit case. I already did address it and I said I didn't think it was all that great. Town make bad cases too. If you're town, I understand your perspective of 'he must be scum pushing garbage', but from my perspective of not knowing your alignment, it's not as open and shut as that.

that's fine. i think we agree that smash may be VI. the vote is still oppurtunistic. instead of coming up with an original case, he dropped omgus with a "shit case"(your words). how is that not "oppurtunistic"? meh, this may be getting into the range of a semantics argument. i may not have described it correctly, or may have incorrectly lumped it into a comparison with implo's vote. either way, his vote on me is bad. the case was bad. we agree on that.

if you want to make a meta case, you need to read through at least 60%(28) of my games before i think you would have anything remotely statistically reliable.

This is a bullshit argument. We're not applying the scientific method here. We're talking about one player's ability to read another player's psychology. Is it foolproof? Hell no. Can it still be a reliable tool? Hell yes. I'm not expecting other players to be sold on it because I'm just speaking from my personal experience with you. In fact, they definitely should not be sold on that. However, that does not mean it should be any less true for me. And apart from that, I do feel you've been playing a safe game, which is more likely to come from scum. Do you deny that?

i have not been playing safe at all. dropping an unexplained vote early on day 2 and asking for a voting block is not "safe". i get what you are saying about meta, but your conclusions make no sense to me. i was pretty freewheeling in bebop, and i have done some crazy shit as town and scum. what i would prefer, is if you look at this game. read this game. tell me why you think i am scum based on this game.

@don - please give me your bullet point case on smash.

no. my suspicions are documented. i never claimed to have a bp case on him. the original vote was mostly gut based on his day 1 play, and his response was terrible imo. i currently am not interested in his lynch. if you have a specific question i'd be happy to answer, but i am not wasting time on this request. you can call it avoidance, but as far as i am concerned, you asking this question is an example of you avoiding a good portion of this game. i.e. the last several pages where other issues have been brought up. your "other" suspects, etc.

That's the thing. I don't see Dj town. He had been telling me to present a good case on Mallow all day, and didn't seem to believe in it. But once the Werewolf wagon gained votes, he suddenly thinks that it would be good to have two wagons, and goes onto none other than Mallow. He had been vocal about his other reads, but didn't seem to be sold on Mallow. Once someone else joined the Mallow wagon, he joined it too, rather than Werewolf. That's the point. I didn't think that DJ suspected Mallow over Werewolf.

This makes sense to me.

only thing is that it really only makes sense if i am scum with mallow. and even then, what is my scum motivation? the scum motivation is there(avoid townie wagon, ecpress suspicion of known scum to buy townie points), but at that point in time the mallow lynch was a real possibility, and my vote made it more so. thats a risky bus on day 1. scum could have just laid a vote on wolf, or someone else for that matter. i evened out the wagons which created more discussion and(had mallow not dissappeared) could possibly have given us much more insight into both players alignments/connections etc. i don't see how the mallow vote can be perceived as overtly scummy. if mallow were to flip scum, then maybe in retrospect it would draw scrutiny, but even then, its not a good move for scumdj. and you certainly can't accuse dj of avoiding the townwolf wagon.

I was about to answer in the negative, but then I googled. It turns out that we were in a game together way back in 2008. I was town Doctor and was lynched D1. He was mafia and won.

I can't remember anything about him from that game, though.

i can. mykonian was my scum partner. it was my first game on MS. myk cc'd you on day 1 after spyrex nailed me as scum. i lurked for the win. it was a screwy set-up though, and i don't think town could have won.

@DJ. Hi! Did you lurk?

of course not.

inconsistency in what? the entire town? Everyone can read smash's and implo's votes for themselves and adjudge whether it was opportunistic or not for themselves. DJ pointing it out and essentially stating 'not fair that people are criticizing me and not them' is very much appealing to emotion.

If and when the town wants to judge smash and implo's votes, they will

...and without dj stamping his feet about it. Seems like a weak attempt to redirect attention away from him.

i don't appreciate being painted in such a light. i consider this borderline ad hom. i have asked politely several times for players to look at smash and implo's cases on me. "stamping his feet" is a poor way to put it. also, i have refuted their cases myself, so its not like i'm asking anyone to do my work for me. anytime you want to address implosion, feel free.

Meh. Again, reason has been stated and I'd like to hear your logical explanation against it. 1v1 is a great situation for town to be in, not so much for the scum because it makes wagon analysis on subsequent days much easier.

uh no. if we are both town you are setting scum up for the win. if both smash and i are town, it is in scum's best interest to make this a 1 v. 1.

Elaborate on this along with your original bullet point case on him.

again: no. i will elaborate when you do. i have as much incentive to lynch him now as anyone. his play has been distracting and continuing to shine the light on him when there are several players who have been coasting through this day is scummy.

Bullshit, you have been soft and "tangling" with people only in a reactionary way. You've been a meek little kitten until I got up your ass about it. Like I said, don't try to play tough guy scumhunter with me now just because I attacked you. I find you calling me scummy now that I'm pushing on you a little laughable. If you're town, it's quite shortsighted considering 1) you were all but calling me townish as hell at the start of the day and 2) if I was scum looking for an easy mislynch, surely there are easier targets than you to go after. I've been explaining my stance this entire time, so I don't see how I'm "avoiding" explaining my case on you. I've pointed out areas that I think are meta related and I've given my feelings about your play this game.

more ad hom. my reread on day 1 had you as town, correct. that doesn't mean it can't change. if anyone is playing "soft" it is you. you are "softly" trying to keep town in a 1 v 1 situation with smash and dj. you are "softly" avoiding analyzing other players in this game. you are "softly" pushing an unreliable meta case and avoiding posting any evidence from this thread to condemn either of your two suspects. please produce the "scum motivations" you believe exist for my play this game.

For example, he waffles on the Consig thinking andrew is in the game issue. He said he could be scummy or he could be confused town and he's awaiting reaction to judge. I'm cool with that, but then Consig posts a very reasonable explanation as to why he thought andrew as in the game and Smashbro simply says 'not buying it, Vote:Consig'. That doesn't really seem like someone that is genuinely weighing the evidence of the situation, but is rather looking for an easy issue to condemn someone over.

^^ this is an example of what i would like to see from you.

lol, oh well if dj says it, it must be true!

now you're gettin it!

In my opinion, yes. Let me start off by saying that meta-cases are not great, but sometimes when you get a bad feeling about a player, that is really all you have to go on. So, I'm not making excuses. When considering meta, I do think it's much better to look at the general shape of a playstyle than it is too look at "tells". Tells are easy to learn and compensate for. The psychology of how you post as different alignments is not. I don't believe those are the only two games where don has posted like that. I just picked the first two random town and scum games I found in his site iso to prove my point had some merit. I do encourage you to look at his town and scum games side by side and draw your own conclusions. If you feel there is not much disparity (freewheeling vs. logical play), then you can take that stance and say so. However, dismissing my point out of hand because I did not (and do not have the time to) read 60% of his games is an easy write off. What I think you and everyone else should do is randomly pick a scum game and a town game from his iso that are different from the ones I chose and see if my original premise holds up or not. I've made my opinion clear, but I'm not going to spend days on end building a meta case because I simply do not have that kind of time. You either do some of the leg work yourself or dismiss my point out of hand and judge his play based soley on this game. My only word of caution is that dj is no chump and isn't likely to be caught on shit tells. Hunting him that way will never catch him as scum, and is why his record is so good. You can bank on that. That's not a reason to suspect him unduly, mind you, but it should be noted.

random investigation will yield random results. you cannot meta me. its going to be a waste of time because i will be able to find something to refute every conclusion. i play all my games differently. please look at the implosion case against me and my response. please read volkan's response as well. if you are town, this shouldn't be much to ask. if the "smash" bp case bothers you enough, i can summarize some points, but i don't think revisiting it is necessary. i think both lew and implosion should be under scrutiny and i will add you to that list if you keep up the ad hom and misrep.

[don_johnson]

the 1 v1 is an either or fallacy. the scum motivation to not just jump on one of the lynches and push it through is to a) avoid scrutiny by pushing a "quick" lynch through on a townie, and b) to perpetuate the 1 v1 as fact(instead of fallacy) in order to secure consecutive mislynches resulting in a scum win. it also can help generate enough pressure to draw out two claims on townies thereby possibly exposing the vig or at least narrowing down the nk pool. 1 v 1 is anti-town at this juncture.

[don_johnson]

1) I never claimed it was a "fact". I said, 'here is my interpretation of the situation and why I think this is so'. Painting it otherwise is hyperbolic and excessively dismissive. It is hardly a "fallacy" to think this could be the case based on the evidence of the situation. It is most certainly one possibility and worth considering.

worth considering? sure. but you are shutting out all other possibilities. start expanding your search and this statement will have more credibility.

2) You can't say I'm trying to secure mislynches and yet I didn't jump for an easy smash wagon if he's town. That's having your cake and eating it too. Presenting the 1v1 possibility was most certainly not the quickest route to victory for a scum-Gonzo

i don't believe i said that. you didn't jump for an easy smash wagon because jumping for an easy town wagon draws heat. so scum hangs back and waits. then they see an oppurtunity to push a 1 v 1 fallacy. who said anything about "quickness."? one mislynch doesn't earn scum a victory. consecutive ones will. therefore, working for consecutive mislynches > jumping on one quickly.

3)

it also can help generate enough pressure to draw out two claims on townies thereby possibly exposing the vig or at least narrowing down the nk pool.

Is ridiculous conjecture. I think you and lew already took care of singling out the vig, anyhow. So, meh.

um no. its actually a valid point. again. please show where i took part in "singling out the vig". that is a subject you seem to be avoiding wholesale. you keep accusing me of some dastradly behavior, but you fail to show how anything that i did compromised the identity of the vig.

[don_johnson]

please show where i took part in "singling out the vig"

are you asking this for real? Are we going to start discussing this stuff again?

sorry lew, but if someone is going to accuse me of "rolefishing", then they damn well better explain the accusation. imo, their is a big difference between fruitful discussion of set-up/night choices etc. and "rolefishing". those accusing me of rolefishing need to show how what i said is detrimental and/or consistent with jeapordaizing or exposing a power role. if they cannot do that, then they cannot make the accusation of rolefishing. noone has answered my earlier question. noone has compared yours and my statements and explained which ones they think are detrimental and why. trying to brush off valid talking points is par for the course, though. you and gonzo should just get a room.

[don_johnson]

i have been plenty patient. implying otherwise is more of your sideways ad hom. not one person has yet answered this:

lew was saying "vig has no brains." dj was saying "vig shot was legit". which of those two statements do you think has more potential to draw out a vigilante?

i'll make it easy:

a) lew's statement
b) dj's statement
c) they are both equally guilty of role fishing
d) rolefishing? just looked like a conversation to me.

i'd like everyone to answer this. a general consensus is needed.

[don_johnson]

lew was saying "vig has no brains." dj was saying "vig shot was legit". which of those two statements do you think has more potential to draw out a vigilante?


i'll make it easy:

a) lew's statement
b) dj's statement
c) they are both equally guilty of role fishing
d) rolefishing? just looked like a conversation to me.

i'd like everyone to answer this. a general consensus is needed.

I don't really see why you are making these comparisons. I think they were both scummy. I'm going to go over the entire sequence of events.

gonzo says "equally" scummy". i guess that's answer "c".

lew kicks it off in post 254

implying you did not act at night? LoL

Which is rolefishing in my opinion. Don't like it. You know chesskid is going to respond to this and whatever he says is going to give you insight into his role.

accuses lew of "rolefishing".

chesskid kind of furthers the discussion by saying the vig is useless now and that's why he claimed, blah blah.

I immediately shut that business down in 261

Let's stop talking about who or who may not be the vig for now.

nothing wrong with chesskids statement. its actually quite relevant. gonzo seems to want town points for squaching discussion. again, i stand by that there is a difference between set-up/role discussion and "rolefishing".

Then we get dj coming in at 263

Explain 258 a bit more pls. The word "therefore" implies that your conclusion of handing out scumpoints to sk somehow stems from the idea that "big is useless." R u saying u think vig Shud claim?

Why why why? I see no freaking reason to be continuing this discussion because

the more you talk about the vig, even in the guise of scumhunting chesskid, the more likely it is that the vig will be narrowed down.

Additionally, scum could be looking at this and going 'hmm, maybe dj isn't the vig'.

i was trying to get clarification. the bolded is the logical fallacy. we can talk about the vig all we want without narrowing his/her identity down. so far, you have attacked the "subject" of the conversation. not the "content". italicized is an example of part of the conversation which might be pro-town. if dj is vig, then this convo would be throwing off the scumteam. so i don't see the harm there.

Then lew follows up:

Before anyone does something stupid: no, vig must not claim. He just must not shoot, for the moment. Vig is not useless. He is just useless in this phase of the game. At game end, on a mylo-situation (and being an open-game, we will know very well when it is mylo), if we mislynch he may save our ass by shooting right.

More talk about what the vig should do and more WIFOM about who could be the vig if lew is town.

actually, there's nothing wrong with lew's statement here. it clearly asks the vig not to claim. i don't see the wifom you reference.

chesskid's turn:

Yeah I was not suggesting that the vig claim at all.

No fuck, shut up about it.

whats wrong with the statement. it clearly states that chesskid does not want the vig to claim. would you have preferred that chesskid

not

clarify his earlier statement?

implosion gets in on it

QFT. Even if there was never any chance for the vig to shoot again, they would still be useful as a townie with a special name.

emoticons tell us nothing. please explain how this statement was detrimental. obvious in a common sense sort of way, but how is it detrimental?

lew brings up the vig again in 274. again, for what reason I don't know because the discussion should be dead by now, but keeping the fire alive I guess.

another scum point for lew in this analysis i'm guessing?

vig discussion kind of dies down. Then there's a few times dj directs the vig, which is semi-null though I don't like bringing it up at all.

null(semi) points for dj.

Unlikely that don could be jumping on a town.

If smash were lynched and flipped town (we have a ml, if vig isn't an idiot), then he will be in a very bad situation tomorrow.

^^ what did this mean?

This I don't like because it's stirring the pot of the vig talk again after we had moved on. Yes, lew started it and that's on him, but I feel dj knows better than to further this kind of talk.

i was asking about the bolded. i did not understand that sentence and how it related to the rest of the statement. was lew saying that both dj and smash are town? or what? again, all i am doing is asking for clarification.

Anyhow, coming back to the original question, no don I do not feel like you were the only one spurring that discussion on. Several players were and it was stupid. However, I don't think you're completely innocent in it either, as you're claiming.

well, your analysis when broken down seems to be attributing more "scumminess" to lew's part in this than anyone else. not sure why you want everyone to equally share the blame when lew's statements are the only ones you describe as "rolefishing".

[quotye="gonzo"]In fact, I don't even know what post you're getting the "vig shot was legit" from. Can you quote where you said anything like that because I must be losing it in your iso?
[/quote]

i'll dig it up.

I do find it funny that implosion was accusing you of it when he also took a (albeit smaller) part in furthering on the talk about the vig.

way to step outside of the tunnel.


mykonian: explanations will be necessary.

[don_johnson]

i actually like the PO case here. PO's last post seems to be trying to pigeonhole my implosion vote by tieing it to the post in which it was initially laid down, but not responding to any of the walls of text that i subsequently posted. nor does it address implo's play at all. its just kind of a sideways stab at a vulnerable player(me). plus, i like myk.

unvote, vote: PO

i don't think smash is scum and i think locking into a 1 v1 dj/smash is a terribad idea. i'm willing to lynch PO, implo, gonzo, lew atm and i'll call it in that order. not interested in volkan, myk, smash, Thad. i think the PO case has merit especially considering he's been waffling over the 1 v 1 smash/dj all day and his last post just seems cherrypicked. sorry, but you can't ignore a dozen posts, quote one or two lines and then think you're making sense. or something.

whatever. i've been flooding this thread with analysis all day and noone seems to want to answer my questions or fully read what i've been saying. so there it is...

[don_johnson]

i appreciate it if you'd look at it. noone asked me for bullet points except gonzo asking about smash. implo's posting hasn't been good imo. if you are willing to join a wagon on one of my other lynch targets i will grant you the reprieve, but i don't think myself(obviously) or smash should be lynched today. i don't see any reason to give gonzo a pass on his behavior. there is plenty of scum motivation for him to do what he did. i think i explained how his "shutting down the vig discussion" looks more like a ploy than anything. i honestly don't think the discussion was that bad. i found lew's comments the only ones that were mildly damaging, but gonzo seemed to portray everyone involved in a scummy light when the discussion had certain relevant points. but whatever. let's hear what you have to say. you really haven't been decisive and i think myk brings that to light well.

[don_johnson]

i didn't realize there would be this much support for an implosion wagon. i'm impressed.

Thad: whats up with PO? do you get myk's case? agree/disagree?

[don_johnson]

whatever. deadlines in a few hours.

unvote, vote: smash

lots of lurking going on and i think gonzo points out a good thing here on volkans smash vote. if smash is town, vig should not shoot. but whatever.

[don_johnson]

i say we just lynch implosion. claim tomorrow. smash flipped jk. which means scum was more likely than not split(one off, one on). myk looked like hella likely scum, the fact that he's flipped town means either thad or implosion are most likely scum. tbh, most likely scum on the wagon is volkan. his smash vote is text book bus. drop it on early in the day and let it ride. the rest of us were actively scumhunting til the end of the day. implosion, well, he's just scummy for all the reasons pointed out yesterday plus the fact that he basically dissappeared. thad, on the other hand has produced(like volkan) a town read. however, it is difficult to determine whether thad is actually scumhunting(much like volkan). both players seem to be stressing "theory" and "statistics" over "hey, who's most likely scum."

i am comfortable lynching today, but its going to be out of that pool:

thad
implo
volkan.

edit: i agree with gonzo.

[don_johnson]

thats fine. claim order:

implo
volkan
thad
PO
gonzo
dj

work for you?

[don_johnson]

implosion: your presence is requested in the center of town. stand before us and tell us your role. now.

[don_johnson]

yes. why gonzo second?

[don_johnson]

so it looks like gonzo is our vig and thad is confirmed. these are good things.

vote: volkan

voting block anyone?

[don_johnson]

lynch volkan.

thad, jail PO. unless volkan flips town. then you jail noone. our only hope would be a clear vigshot.

implosion:

place your vote and tell us why?

PO:

place your vote and tell us why?

volkan:

place your vote and tell us why?

please be concise.

[don_johnson]

gonzo: a clear shot for the vig is better. if volkan flips town, then two scum are left. vig needs to hit one. better vig has three choices than two imo. but thats up to thad. what i wouldn't want to happen is thad and vig targeting same person giving scum the win. but this is all moot. volkan is obvscum. lets get our votes and explanations.

unvote

voting block is thad, dj, gonzo. lets hear from the peanut gallery and then we'll make our move.

[don_johnson]

vote: volkan

voting block is a go. volkan has posted elsewhere on site. his avoidance here increases the likelihood he is scum. neither PO or impolosion has stated they will hammer, so there should be no harm in bringing him to L-1.

imp and PO: do not hammer. we will place volkan at L-1 and give him 24 hours from then to post.

thad: in case of a town flip i think its better off if you don't jail anyone. scum flip and you jail PO. make sense?

[don_johnson]

PO: just to be clear. i am the vig. i think you and gonzo are our vanillas. only chance scum has to still win this game is if volkan is town. which it doesn't look like. in other words, if you are town, start doing what we tell you to do and everything will work out fine.

[don_johnson]

alright. one of you pansies hammer this sucka by tomorrow. townvolkan would already be in here with a case. implosion, if you're town, know that your death will not be in vain...

[don_johnson]

usually i support early vig claims, and even considered it in this one. but as the game went along i realized that would most likely sink us, so i did everything i could to avoid it. pretty happy with the outcome here. i wouldn't say the set up is "broken" per se, mafia could have tried harder to avoid the smash lynch. i think volkan could have swung things my way, but i think he was a little afraid of rocking the boat. tough game for scum, but it was nice how we pulled together at the end. gg gonzo, i was ready to hand the game to you if you were scum, but even if you were, i don't think you could have won. the plan was foolproof and i was happy to leave thad at the helm once he was confirmed.

PO: your utter confusion was what gave me a town read on you.

[don_johnson]

vp: i wasn't trying to set you up. just kind of figured you had to be town once i realized how important the mafia jk was. had you gone with the plan their it would have been fine. when sss flipped i used the one on one off theory. had to shoot myk just to be sure. narrowed down scum between thad and implo. then looking at the wagon i saw volkans vote as the most likely to be a bus. thanks for sharing the qt.