Open 307-Friends and Enemies Deadly Alliance-Town Wins!!

[[Low Key]]

/confirm

[[Low Key]]

Hey Pops. I saw you in SoS. Nice replace-in push on the second scum team there.

[[Low Key]]

Vote Quaroath

[[Low Key]]

I'm getting ready to go to sleep after work here but I thought I would weigh in a little before I do.

We will need to focus more than usual today with this particular setup. We have an opportunity to get a second lynch today but for that to be as effective as it can be, we need to obtain two top suspects at least a full week before the deadline (May 31st). More on this when I get back.

With the go-around concerning DK's self-vote:

1) I will have to weigh in on it when I wake up.
2) Even though Parab has dropped enough scum tells and logic-fail to choke a moose, he also dropped a significant town tell in my eyes. I think that unless the scum team is Parab/DK/Quaroath, Parab is prob-town here. I do disagree with his vote on Spadille however -- I think Parab is just trying too hard with that.
3) The person that actually looks scummy in the whole thing is Snarky.

VOTE: SnakePlissKen

He knows why.

Cause he's the only one i know in the player list.

And yes I've got telepathic connections, that's why I know

you're scum

!!

Nah just joking

, the he knows why RVS joke is a classic

At this point he only has one vote from Spad but he goes out of his way to justify his random vote. Also, the "You're scum, nah just joking" sounds like he is trying to deflect pretty hard here. It sounds kind of unnatural and forced actually and then he immediately moves his vote (in the same post):

@DK:

So you don't trust yourself? Then why would I trust you?

unvote
vote: DeityKabuto

Oh oh! wagon wagonny!!

Why didn't he take exception to DK's self-vote earlier? Why the sudden grab towards DK after he gets a vote from Spad? I think this demonstrates scum nervousness. This is further demonstrated by his voting statement. The bolded just isn't a reason but instead is a cute sounding excuse. The underlined sounds like the real reason. There is nothing wrong with voting pressure, but the way that he does it shows me that his motives are not genuine.

Why so worried of a quicklynch, Parabollock? We're still on page 2, you know.

Would be suicide for the

three scum

to blitz right now

Now he sounds nervous that he is being accused of bandwagoning and calls everyone on the wagon town (including himself

of course

). I think he was over-compensating here because he is nervous as scum on a wagon.

Too early to really weigh in on any other players.

I will sleep on this:

Unvote, Vote Snarky

[[Low Key]]

That is really a biased way of "scumhunting", I don't like it at all. I'm thinking that you sat there infront of your computer screen and over-thought this until you could actually come up with a semi-biased reason for voting me.

It does not imply that, which is mainly the bias of your post. I never said that I wasn't going to scum hunt, or anything of that sort, so please, get off my D**K.

FoS Spadille

Sorry had to comment here before I went to sleep.

Dewd you self-voted. Now you're being belligerent? How is this helping the town?

I am hoping to see actual pro-town content from you after this, especially after the stunt you pulled.

Otherwise, you're just:

[[Low Key]]

Ok I woke up a little early. Here is a "votecount" so I can properly focus:

Unofficial

Votecount 1.1.1

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

DK(4): Muffin, DK, Snarky, Arch
Parab(2): Spad,Pops
Spad(2): DJ, Parab
RotN(1): Snake
Snarky(1): LK

Not Voting(2): Quaroath, RangeroftheNorth

[[Low Key]]

Could you please elaborate on which tells you think are scum or town? It's also a bit early to have a scum team in mind, especially when one of them, (Quaroath) hasn't posted at all. Where are you getting that Quaroath might be scum, was your random vote on him not so random?

@LowKey
Why Quaroath?

I think that there are many things Parab has said and done that have a possible scum motivation such as: Warning his (potential) scum buddies to stay off of DK, falsely attacking Spad for voting DK, creating a false excuse for interfering with the DK wagon (it creates commotion for the town) as a defense for his actions. There have also been alot of bad-logic things too.

I initially saw Parab as the most scummy surrounding the DK self-vote but one post made me scratch my head in disbelief and then reverse my read to prob-town.

I don't see how he could make that post if he had a scum QT. The only people that had not confirmed by the time the QT's would of been closed by the Mod are: DK and Quaroath.

I have no reason to think that DK and/or Quaroath are scum but the only way that Parab wouldn't of received help in the scum QT to avoid that post is if those were his two scum partners.

[[Low Key]]

I failed to see DK's selfvote before. I thought it was just a normal random vote. (I failed to make the connection DK-DeityKabuto on my first read)

Ok, that's just wrong. PB feared a scum quicklynch. In order for that to happen, there needed three scum players to quickvote, that's all. That does not mean I think all the players on the wagon are town, but they have to be for a scum quicklynch to happen.

Ok fair enough.

Spad vote was random.

To the best of my understanding, this is false. His vote was definitely not random. He clearly questioned you on the reasoning and voted you because it was vague. I think your actions demonstrate you knew that.

I wasn't justifying my vote, as I knew it was random crappy reasoning.

This appears false too. You mentioned the reason for your vote once with a simple one-line explanation that I could find no fault with. But then in the next post you mention the reason again (unbidden) with a smiley and nervously deflect onto the DK wagon with that odd "you're scum, ahh just joking" post.

It just seems to me like nervous over-reaction to the situation which would be more indicative of a non-town alignment.

[[Low Key]]

I do not like how DJ drops an FoS of Parab while leaving his RVS vote on Spad with no explanation. This is now the equivalent of him voting Spad outside of RVS with no reason whatsoever.

He uses the excuse of no content due to his cellphone but seems quite able to post frequently to Pops' queries. Why can't he provide some minimal town related content?

With that being said it is far too soon to really get reads on everyone. I need more content from Snake, Quaroath, RotN, Muffin.

[[Low Key]]

Quick note while I am at work.

This last post reinforces my town view on Parab and ftr I see the whole argument between them as town v town.

We really need more info from the lurkers here.

Back to work.

[[Low Key]]

Ok done with work. Couple of things I can comment on/respond to:

First of all, I'd like some explanation from Low Key on his scum QT theory for proving PB is town.

Well, let me ask you this: How many scum teams do we have this game, 1 or 2?

PB has started dropping some towntells. unvote

Could you please be more specific?

---

With this setup, I think lurkers could hurt us more than usual. We have the ability to nuke two of them today which really might be a great help to the game state.

I am particularly insulted by Quaroath who has posted on site but not even a peep in this game; I posit that he might be scum that is scared of being lynched D1 -- maybe we should make his fears a reality.

I need to hear more from the following people to obtain proper reads:

Snake, Muffin, Quaroath, RotN, DJ

(honorable mention)

Since snarky has addressed my concerns:

Unvote

And since lurkers piss me off and its not Monday yet:

Vote Quaroath

[[Low Key]]

I can't believe that I woke up after only 3 hours but:

@Mod: The votecount has me voting twice.

For the record, I am

NOT

a double-voter!

Your eyes are deceiving you, look again.

[[Low Key]]

Late Night Update

Snake

has also posted on site on more than one occasion has not posted here at all (since his last post).

[[Low Key]]

I would put you in the same class as DJ about now.

[[Low Key]]

So far I have a town read on Snake but he does need to post to maintain that. The latest posts could of included some simple game content, just sayin'.

[[Low Key]]

@MOD: Please prod Quaroath

[[Low Key]]

Ok I have enough data to at least make some general reads. What bothers me is how RotN and Quaraoth are completely missing. In 8 hours RotN will have to be prodded as well. Once these two are sorted out, I will have an important announcement to make.

But for now:

Pops

-- Ridicules the idea that the DK wagon could be scum quick lynched and votes Parab for interfering with the wagon with a scum mindset. Changes mind on Parab for motivation based scum hunting. Goes V/LA. Although we have little data on Pops, she appears to have a town mindset and so I

lean town

.

Muffin

-- I started out leaning town on Muffin. I find his question in-thread of the mod concerning the day vig odd. He states the Parab case is ot. Post #105 I agree with his town and null reads although I have an actual town read on Spad & Snake. I agree with him on his reads on DJ as scummy. I tend to agree with him on Snarky scumminess although I will comment on my actual read further down in this post. As for him declaring me scummy on meta, I can appreciate his caution. He says that Spad is almost scum and I definitely disagree but he ultimately votes for DJ which I do agree with (see my analysis below). Declares DK entertaining and watchable; I agree here as well. He seems to defend Snake's lurking which I agree with. Although Muffin's playstyle is a little "rough around the edges", I think the best way to read him is by his actions. I strongly support his vote of DJ and so for now I will

lean town

.

Quaroath, RotN

--

Null

read.

Either of them could easily be scum

.

DK

-- Responds to a single vote with a self-vote. Follows this with trolling. Accuses Arch of being the scummiest on his wagon and votes him. Says Spad is possible scum for overreacting and bad logic. Asks Muffin why he has listed himself in the scum category. In post #128 says that Spadille is most likely scum and Arch next most likely for low/bad content and being last on his wagon. Snarky is null to scum and Muffin is null to scum for little scum hunting. I think DK would have to have brass (errrm) teeth to pull off the stunt that he has. The problem is now becoming that he is tunnelled on himself. The chances of all the scum being on his wagon is highly unlikely. The chances of a single scum are far more likely. He needs to broaden his view to include the entire game. Until I see this I will hold him

null to town

.

Snarky

-- I can't shake the nervous looking start that Snarky had but I think he at least explained it well even though his actions were suspicious. I'm not sure I am buying his explanations though. He seems to have been falsely accusing people left and right and then settles in on a convenient DK tunnel. I just get this overall feeling that he is too self-conscious and concerned with how people view his actions. His accusations of others are inconsistent. Overall, things just don't add up as town with Snarky. I am getting these impressions from reviewing my notes and don't have the specific post numbers. I will have to do an entire PBPA on Snarky to properly clear my head but I have the feeling he is

prob scum

.

DJ

-- Is active lurking. Populist vote of Parab, sheeping the post above him with no reason. I have no reason to think he is not

scum

but will give him until Monday to rectify his sad game performance thus far.

Parab

-- I would think he is scum for his behavior surrounding the DK wagon (independent even of DK's alignment) except for his townslip about the masons being a second scum team. I don't see how a person with a scum QT could make that kind of mistake. I get the feeling from Parab of being a newer player that is struggling to keep everything he says making rational sense while still trying to scum hunt. I disagree with much of his logic (I think the DK wagon was good for town as an example). I think his latest posts have recovered well and agree with his unvote of Spad and his subsequent vote of Snarky for fencesitting. Parab is

prob-town

.

Spad

-- He has fit the profile as a player that has been genuinely scum hunting all game. I especially like his query of Snarky being the 3rd vote on the DK wagon and his query of Parab's declaration that DK is town. Unfortunately though, for most of the game he has been tunnelled on Parab and DK and more lately on DK. I thnk he is town that is genuinely trying to scum hunt but needs to broaden his view to include the entire game. Even so, Spad is

town

.

Snake

-- He has been actively lurking. In fact, he openly admits it. I will give him a conditional leaning town status for being so bold but this is running on fumes and the leaning town car will be screeching to a halt unless he fills up the tank with some town related content.

Conditional leaning town

.

Arch

-- RVS votes me with an explanation. Says the DK wagon wouldn't attract scum. Accuses Spad of inconsistency for voting Parab for his own behavior. Votes DK for trolling. Queries me on my Parab read and agrees that Parab/Spad are town. Accuses DK of crap logic/trolling. I get a town-vibe from Arch but I think he is conveniently tunnelled on DK and I am not sure I see the scum motivation for DK to do what Arch is accusing him of. Arch needs to broaden his view to the rest of the game. Until he does this I must hold him

null to town

.

Many people are tunnelled and have not given their views on the various players. We need to come up with a top lynch choice a week early with this setup and so we need to be as forthright as possible with our reads. Lurking will harm this process.

[[Low Key]]

I am leaning towards voting Snarky again but I will need to do a PBPA to verify that. At this point we have too much lurking and tunnelling going on which prevents more solid reads but from what I've seen I would say that the scum probably reside in:

Snarky

,

DJ

and probably one of

RotN/Quaroath

These are early reads and I really encourage all players to broaden their views as much as possible and be forthright with their reads on the various players.

[[Low Key]]

I will provide my PBPA with my raw notes data dump (bold italics):

Self-consciously (+scum) declares Spadille scum says his RVS was a classic joke. Votes DK for self-voting, "why would I trust you?" +scum

.

Ok this case I have already made and Spad has answered it. Its just that his subsequent behavior (below) gives him an overall feeling of insincerity as scum who doesn't actually believe the votes he casts and is trying to sling mud and case fish wherever he can. I think the behavior listed below lends more credence to this earlier read.

Accuses Pops for shameless bw. Possible Spad/Parab scum. Says Don vote for Parab is

less suspicious that Pops vote (?? +scum)

.

Post #88

From Post 88:

I don't like how pops has jumped on the wagon while only rewording past arguments against him. Don hasn't posted much content, but

I find his vote on PB less odd for some reason than the one of pops

. For that I will FOS: popsofctown

I don't like this post. DJ's vote on Parab was

horribad

whereas Pops has provided good and original sounding reasons for (she later changed her vote for good reasons too) suspecting Parab. Why would Snarky make a statement like this when it is obviously the opposite? It sounds like he is trying to cover for DJ here and I have no idea why he would do that when DJ looks so bad. I don't think he actually believes what he is saying here and coincidentally is trying to sling mud onto Pops.

@Spadille: For maybe the tenth time, yes I put the third vote on DK just because of self-voting and I'm happy having done so. I don't know what's the problem here,

knowing that you put the fourth on him for the same reason

. Mine was just less detailed than yours.

This also appears to be untrue. Not speaking for Spad or anything but he originally

led

the wagon for self-voting but

placed the 4th vote

for what he called "The Three OMGUS'es". So this sounds to me like Snarky is over-reaching with the defense of his actions as he has done before.

I agree with DK being a newb-scum.

Nope, I'm saying your cases are biaised.

Ok here he has settled into the DK tunnel...

So please, stop saying he's trying to get in scum's head, and stop saying he makes funny posts, he's OMGUSing. It may not be a big scumtell, it may be a newbtell, but it still is something to consider, you can't just forgive him like that. My Fos is staying on pops, and let's add one to PB. I find the comments of MuffinMan of he makes funny jokes more genuine, even if clearly anti-town.

...and refuses to leave...

I think Spadille pushes this case too much

in my opinion

and I don't like it

. For sure DK is acting very scummily,

but I would not be happy to lynch him now

.

Why have you voted MuffinMan? I'm intrigued

.

...but now accusing Spad of doing exactly what he has done while fishing for an excuse to go elsewhere. The bolded is bizarre as he has pushed the case very hard himself and is voting DK at this point.

* Appearing to defend DJ and misrep Pops (insincere view + mudslinging)
* Grasping at straws to justify his DK vote (insincere case justification)
* Digging in on a DK tunnel but accusing Spad of pushing the case too much while voting Dk himself (insincere mudslinging)
* While not wanting to lynch DK and wanting to actually follow Spad in voting Muffin! (insincere voting and case fishing)

Its all of the actions that I originally brought up about Snarky and his subsequent behaviors that have really pinged my gut.

I think Snarky is a slippery fellow but I don't get a sincere townie feeling from his actions at all.

As of now, I see great merit in having the two top wagons be

DJ

and

Snarky

.

(sorry for the sloppy looking post, I compiled it while at work)

Unvote, Vote Snarky

[[Low Key]]

You were only joking about Muffin being the SK right?

[[Low Key]]

@Spadille: For maybe the tenth time, yes I put the third vote on DK just because of self-voting and I'm happy having done so. I don't know what's the problem here,

knowing that you put the fourth on him for the same reason

. Mine was just less detailed than yours.

This also appears to be untrue. Not speaking for Spad or anything but he originally

led

the wagon for self-voting but

placed the 4th vote

for what he called "The Three OMGUS'es". So this sounds to me like Snarky is over-reaching with the defense of his actions as he has done before.

*FACEPALM* Sorry. The demonstrated dangers of posting while working. My statement is just false. Sorry for the error.

*

Grasping at straws to justify his DK vote (insincere case justification)

Nothwithstanding, my vote stands.

[[Low Key]]

So please, stop saying he's trying to get in scum's head, and stop saying he makes funny posts, he's OMGUSing. It may not be a big scumtell, it may be a newbtell, but it still is something to consider, you can't just forgive him like that. My Fos is staying on pops, and let's add one to PB. I find the comments of MuffinMan of he makes funny jokes more genuine, even if clearly anti-town.

...and refuses to leave...

Oh dear goodness. I would use profanity here but I just don't allow myself to do so. I am

FAIL

again! This statement is just false. But I will point out that

I dislike the FoS of Pops here and I disagree with the FoS of PB. Because the DK tunnel still stands without this point, my case still stands

. However, to be fair, I will repost it. Look out below.

[[Low Key]]

I will provide my PBPA with my raw notes data dump (bold italics):

Self-consciously (+scum) declares Spadille scum says his RVS was a classic joke. Votes DK for self-voting, "why would I trust you?" +scum

.

Ok this case I have already made and Spad has answered it. Its just that his subsequent behavior (below) gives him an overall feeling of insincerity as scum who doesn't actually believe the votes he casts and is trying to sling mud and case fish wherever he can. I think the behavior listed below lends more credence to this earlier read.

Accuses Pops for shameless bw. Possible Spad/Parab scum. Says Don vote for Parab is

less suspicious that Pops vote (?? +scum)

.

Post #88

From Post 88:

I don't like how pops has jumped on the wagon while only rewording past arguments against him. Don hasn't posted much content, but

I find his vote on PB less odd for some reason than the one of pops

. For that I will FOS: popsofctown

I don't like this post. DJ's vote on Parab was

horribad

whereas Pops has provided good and original sounding reasons for (she later changed her vote for good reasons too) suspecting Parab. Why would Snarky make a statement like this when it is obviously the opposite? It sounds like he is trying to cover for DJ here and I have no idea why he would do that when DJ looks so bad. I don't think he actually believes what he is saying here and coincidentally is trying to sling mud onto Pops.

I agree with DK being a newb-scum.

Nope, I'm saying your cases are biaised.

Ok here he has settled into the DK tunnel...

I think Spadille pushes this case too much

in my opinion

and I don't like it

. For sure DK is acting very scummily,

but I would not be happy to lynch him now

.

Why have you voted MuffinMan? I'm intrigued

.

...but now accusing Spad of doing exactly what he has done while fishing for an excuse to go elsewhere. The bolded is bizarre as he has pushed the case

very hard

himself and is voting DK at this point.

* Appearing to defend DJ and misrep Pops (insincere view + mudslinging)
* Digging in on a DK tunnel but accusing Spad of pushing the case too much while voting DK himself (insincere mudslinging)
* While not wanting to lynch DK and wanting to actually follow Spad in voting Muffin! (insincere voting and case fishing)

Its all of the actions that I originally brought up about Snarky and his subsequent behaviors that have really pinged my gut.

I think Snarky is a slippery fellow

but

and I don't get a sincere townie feeling from his actions at all.

As of now, I see great merit in having the two top wagons be

DJ

and

Snarky

.

[[Low Key]]

Here is a supplemental votecount just in case:

Unofficial

Votecount 1.4.1

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Snarky(3): Parabollocks,[Low-Key],DeityKabuto
DonJosh(2): popsofctown, zMuffinMan
DeityKabuto(2): Snarky, Archaist
RangeroftheNorth(1): SnakePlissken
Parabollocks(1): DonJosh
zMuffinMan(1): Spadille

Not Voting(2): Quaroath, RangeroftheNorth

[[Low Key]]

@DK: What is your offsite experience playing Mafia? Have you ever played any Mafia variants that are out there?

[[Low Key]]

CONTENT AHOY!

But first of all:

@DK: You were only joking about Muffin being the SK right?

@DK: What is your offsite experience playing Mafia? Have you ever played any Mafia variants that are out there?

[[Low Key]]

@Snarky: I hope you don't mind me asking, but is English your first language?

[[Low Key]]

I agree with DK being a newb-scum

^^ Too much OMGUS is obvious.

Nope, I'm saying your cases are biaised.

For sure DK is acting very scummily, but I would not be happy to lynch him now.

So what changed your mind that he was newb scum, OMGUS-ing scum, and biased scum? Why wouldn't you want him lynched if he is scum?

The big difference between my vote and Spad's is the following: my vote is there for pressure because

I think DKs the scummiest player of all

. However, I do not push for his lynch because there is too less evidence on him for that.

I point out all the flaws of his reasoning

to build out a case on him

, but

before I can build a case on him

, I have no reason to push for his lynch

.

If you think he is the scummiest player of all and are trying to build a case on him then why did you announce that you don't want him lynched and express interest in a Muffin wagon?

A pressure vote to build a case loses the pressure if it is announced as such and is an easy excuse out of being on a towny lynch because you can just say "I was just voting for pressure, not to lynch".

Based on your actions, I don't think you were actually trying to build a case on him at all or even think he is scum (because you know he's town anyway).

It doesn't seem to me that you are actually trying to find scum. I just don't see sincerity in your actions at all.

I think you just see yourself surrounded by townies everywhere and it doesn't matter who gets lynched as long as it isn't your partners or yourself, thus your insincerity in trying to "build a case".

Could you please detail your reads of every player for us?

[[Low Key]]

Unofficial

Votecount 1.4.2

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Snarky(3): Parabollocks,[Low-Key],DeityKabuto
DeityKabuto(3): Snarky, Archaist, Spadille
DonJosh(2): popsofctown, zMuffinMan
RangeroftheNorth(1): SnakePlissken
Parabollocks(1): DonJosh
Spadille(1): CJ

Not Voting(1): RangeroftheNorth

[[Low Key]]

@CJ: Excellent replace broham!

1) Could you please detail out your Snarky reads?
2) Could you please post your top 3 scum suspects from your reads (because its kind of hard to read the minus'es when they are mixed with other things)?

[[Low Key]]

Ok, now that everybody is here, its time for my:

ANNOUNCEMENT

I'm kind of surprised that nobody has picked up on this or mentioned it but it is absolutely necessary to address this issue as soon as possible meaning TODAY and not tomorrow.

1) There is a one-shot day vig in this game.
2) There is a 25% chance that one of the scum is the day vig.
3) One of the best ways to maximize the town advantage with a day vig is to have TWO town-directed lynches (instead of just one) before the night phase. Reasons explained below.

Wagon/general interaction analysis is the number one way to catch scum after flips.

I propose that we run up our top suspect to L-1 and when a person expresses their desire to hammer we give the day-vig 72 hours to submit their kill to the Mod by PM. We can then analyze the wagons and various interactions based on the flip and then make a

very

informed second lynch based on what we discover from the vig kill.

Because this is a matter of utmost urgency, I would kindly ask every player to weigh in on this issue in their upcoming posts

.

[[Low Key]]

EBWOP: To clarify, I

AM

suggesting that the day vig kill our number one suspect (who will be at L-1 with an eligible hammer call). This is best action for the town.

[[Low Key]]

I am awaiting input from the following players:

Snake
Pops
Toro (catchup post)
DJ

[[Low Key]]

That is a debatable tactic. I would rather have the person at L-1 lynched, and the Vigilante kill the person we second most deem scummy.

We can do that but then we have to vote in thread for who the second most scummy person is and keep a separate vig vote count. I think it would be better to prove the vig first, and once we have done that, actually lynch our second by regular votes.

Also your claim is horribad and I think you should be lynched.

Unvote, Vote DK

[[Low Key]]

Possibly be manipulated by scum in that they could kill whomever they wanted, anonymously (25% chance).

Please explain this.

[[Low Key]]

And the fact that we then know that hurts us... how?

[[Low Key]]

I claim

VT

scum.

Your claim is horribad and you should be lynched.

Of course what I mean here is you should be brought up to L-1 with a valid hammer call and vigged (only lynched if the scum have the vig).

[[Low Key]]

I disagree with post #182 in so many ways but for right now we all need to join hands, sing "Kumbaya" and vig DK and I will be happy to talk about it after that.

[[Low Key]]

That's not the only reason I believe DK is scum, I'm not doing it just to see a flip,

I genuinely believe he's scum

. My vote's not going anywhere on him.

Using it on D1 kind of looks as if you're shooting blindly in the dark...

So if the town agrees with your first quote, then how does your second quote make any sense?

[[Low Key]]

Kumbaya

I think post #188 is in many ways very similar to post #182 but for right now I just want to sing and take care of town business.

[[Low Key]]

The only thing that could be called "scummy" about DK's claim is how early it came, but even then, I have meta on him that suggests he just doesn't know any better regardless of his alignment, and I would go so far as to say this makes it more likely he's town.

If he is town he shouldn't of hurt the town with his lame claim:

1) I've seen a thread where it is stated that a "modern meta" strategy for scum is to claim early to avoid the lynch because the town will just skip over them.
2) I think there is plenty of motivation for newb-scum to do what he has done all game even.
3) I think he is far more likely to be scum now after that terrible anti-town claim.
4) He will never be night killed and doesn't belong anywhere near MYLO (if he's town).
5) It is best to vig him now to actually see if he is newb-scum.
6) Its better to vig him now rather than risk the chance of running up a mason and forcing them to claim.
7) Its better to vig him now rather than exposing a VT so the scum can get a better shot at the masons.

[[Low Key]]

7) Its better to vig him now rather than exposing a VT so the scum can get a better shot at the masons.

He shouldn't get a pass just because he claimed VT. The fact is he did it in a scummy manner and should be vigged.

[[Low Key]]

I've given him a pass all game because he self-voted. I'm done giving this guy a pass.

[[Low Key]]

7) Its better to vig him now rather than exposing a VT (by exposing two totally separate players) so the scum can get a better shot at the masons.

/fixed

[[Low Key]]

Actually it took me quite awhile of reading your posts to figure it out so your English is quite good. Thanks for sharing because it will help me read your posts better and may even change my reads on you. Sometimes imprecise or unusual wording can really throw me.

[[Low Key]]

Well Muffin if you and I disagree (on DK) that doesn't matter in the face of what the town thinks. If he is run up to L-1 with an eligible hammer call then he needs to be vigged because the town so willed it and I happen to be a strong believer in the fact that its best for the town for that to happen.

[[Low Key]]

I think you might be able to guess why I think D2 is sub-optimal then.

[[Low Key]]

At this point I think he has those brass (errrrm) teeth as scum. He's earned them in my eyes. He's gone over the acceptable level for reaction testing into psycho-newb-scum (or too scummy to be scum gambit) territory for me. At the very least my reasons 4-7 apply and I especially think #4 is enough even.

[[Low Key]]

One of your earlier posts got me thinking though on a couple of other options that I hadn't even thought of before but I think I will just mull those over for now.

[[Low Key]]

Wow, a lot going on. This will help me weed out the scum even further. I know my role, and I am warning the scum. Those who still doubt I am not Vanilla Townie, shall be voted upon in D2 when I flip town. Like I said, there is no point in further discussion of my scuminess, we should like really move on. If I were to be hammered today, the scum will have it more easier in the following rounds since it's you can't rid of all the scum in one day.

But w.e

nobody listens

I think you are scum and I am calling for your vig if you are brought to L-1 with an eligible call for your hammer.

If you are town then you need to be the one to listen. Your play has been for the most part anti-town the entire game. You have taken your opening gambit too far and made it an actual playstyle. The only people that can do that successfully are very experienced players that when the time comes for proper analysis they can bring it with dazzling clarity.

I think the proper course for you would be to learn how to play a pro-town game and get used to that kind of behavior first. Once you are comfortable with that you can branch out into gambits which are for advanced players.

You have been a huge distraction for the town and are in no position to whine about people voting you for pulling a scum gambit.

You need to review site meta and learn why early claiming is anti-town and why it would help scum.

Sorry have to go now and can't put more time and effort into this post.

[[Low Key]]

Good point Arch. I have thought about this. If the vig doesn't come after 72 hours then we have to assume that the scum have the vig -- That would actually change the outlook on the game in a drastic sort of way.

I believe that if the town has the vig they will shoot and they should shoot at the town top wagon.

[[Low Key]]

Unless in an extreme twist of fate, DK's the vig. :p

oh the irony...

[[Low Key]]

Unless in an extreme twist of fate, DK's the vig. :p

This a scum slip declaring DK town ahead of time?

[[Low Key]]

Unless in an extreme twist of fate, DK's the vig. :p

oh the irony...

You can't shoot yourself in this game can you?

You know what I think you actually could. If you can hammer yourself, you can sure shoot yourself. But let's see, self voting is bad because it removes a player slot that would normally have to hammer but self-shooting... I'm thinking that might just be the pro-town thing to do. Wow I've never thought about that before.

[[Low Key]]

If the game was mountainous (VT's and scum only) I don't think it would matter as much if the player could choose a high-info, probably scum player but with town-aligned power roles in this game I'm thinking its prob best to self shoot.

[[Low Key]]

Unless in an extreme twist of fate, DK's the vig. :p

This a scum slip declaring DK town ahead of time?

No, one of the twelve players in the game is vig, is DK exempt?

The point is only 9 of those players are town.

[[Low Key]]

Well I have faith that if the town has the vig they won't wait until tomorrow to use it because I think it makes a huge difference knowing that the town has the vig. The safest and most productive vig is the town top wagon.

[[Low Key]]

@Toro: Btw you are conveniently tunnelled on Muffin/DK stuff. You promised us a catchup post right? Like a sorta gamewide analysis and such...?

[[Low Key]]

Sure. Can you please give us your reads on the various players?

[[Low Key]]

Possibly be manipulated by scum in that they could kill whomever they wanted, anonymously (25% chance).

Please explain this.

There's a 25% chance that scum have the daykill, and they probably won't comply with what we want them to do.

And the fact that we then know that hurts us... how?

[[Low Key]]

Possibly be manipulated by scum in that they could kill whomever they wanted, anonymously (25% chance).

Please explain this.

There's a 25% chance

that scum have the daykill

, and they probably won't comply with what we want them to do.

And the fact that we

then

know that*

,

hurts us... how?

*see bolded

[[Low Key]]

If scum have the daykill, then they can kill a Townie when they want, but they're not likely to follow through with that plan.

Yes, you have already said this. Now please answer my question above.

There are too many opportunities for scum to destroy it.

Please also explain this.

[[Low Key]]

If scum don't have the kill, they could do something similar to a quickhammer, but with voting 'til L-1, leading the Town to kill a Townie or Mason.
Or others.

Ok I am having trouble understanding this post but what I can get from it is that you think scum could quick hammer someone while we're waiting for the vig on our top wagon.

Once our top wagon is at L-1 a notice should be posted that if anyone quickhammers they are auto-lynched tomorrow. There is no harm done as

we get scum the next day

and got our top wagon lynched anyway.

Possibly be manipulated by scum in that they could kill whomever they wanted, anonymously (25% chance).

Please explain this.

There's a 25% chance

that scum have the daykill

, and they probably won't comply with what we want them to do.

And the fact that we

then

know that*

,

hurts us... how?

*see bolded

You are hard-core dodging this question.

You have stated several times that "if the scum have the vig they won't follow our plan". Ok I have asked you several times now, but here is a rephrase:

Since we will then discover that the scum actually have the day-vig (which we didn't know before) how exactly is that harmful or bad for the town?

Please answer this.

[[Low Key]]

Just for the record, DK's WALL-O-PAIN terribly offended my townie sensibilities. I found that post to be in many ways terribly anti-town. I started to read it with the hopes that maybe somehow he could redeem himself but he only cemented in my mind the necessity of removing him from the game as soon as possible.

We only need one more vote on DK so he will be at L-1 and then one other person to CALL for his hammer (just say you want to hammer) and we can then call for his vig.

Let's all join hands, sing kumbaya and get this thing done.

[[Low Key]]

That's not the only reason I believe DK is scum, I'm not doing it just to see a flip,

I genuinely believe he's scum

. My vote's not going anywhere on him.

Using it on D1 kind of looks as if you're shooting blindly in the dark...

So if the town agrees with your first quote, then how does your second quote make any sense?

@Toro: You never answered this actually.

[[Low Key]]

I claimed Vanilla Townie already, and I doubt you had read all of my wall, and what makes you feel I should be removed from the game?

I read your entire wall. I didn't link to each post that you linked but I have been following the game closely and was able to recognize the points you were attempting to make.

Serious question, how old are you?

I am sorry to have to say this. I like being respectful of other people (ya sometimes I will crack jokes at others' expense because this is a game) but I feel that you need to play more games in the Newbie Queue before venturing out into the Open Queue or any other queue.

You obviously haven't read the rules of this specific game (Open 307-Friends and Enemies Deadly Alliance) and have been dropping major anti-town bombs all game long (and possibly now feigning ignorance) and you continue to do so.

You must be stopped whether you are scum gambit or anti-town clueless.

---

@Muffin: This is not a Newbie game. As much as I like being nice to other players and encouraging them to play, I cannot go on and on and on excusing anti-town play. At some point it reaches the level of scum/troll and must be addressed.

I see no reason for your continued defense of DK at this point. I find your request to table him to another day anti-town and advantageous to scum.

I am done looking beyond his harmful play.

[[Low Key]]

If scum don't have the kill, they could do something similar to a quickhammer, but with voting 'til L-1, leading the Town to kill a Townie or Mason.
Or others.

Ok I am having trouble understanding this post but what I can get from it is that you think scum could quick hammer someone while we're waiting for the vig on our top wagon.

Once our top wagon is at L-1 a notice should be posted that if anyone quickhammers they are auto-lynched tomorrow. There is no harm done as

we get scum the next day

and got our top wagon lynched anyway.

No. Scum could be a lot less obvious with getting someone vigged with your plan in place. I'm not saying that they would hammer - that would be stupid. I'm saying that it's simpler for them to hide in the bandwagon while still getting a person lynched/vigged.

Thank you for your answers. I need to further clarify however. How will the scum wagon behavior be any different whether its an L-1 vig or an L-1 lynch?

Once we discover that the scum had the Vig-kill, the harm has already been done - they've killed how they wanted, leading to WIFOM and paranoia in the Town.

What makes you think the scum would have already used the vig??

[[Low Key]]

"Once we discover that the scum has the vig by them using it, how does that harm the Town?"
"Town's already been harmed."
"What makes you think the scum would have already used the vig??"
Well... The original question criteria?

No. Why did you assume that was the criteria?

And I don't know exactly how scum behaviour would differ, because I don't know how scum behavior is normally
I do know that it'd be different, though, and good for them in whatever way they can figure out...

Why would it

have

to different if you can't define possibly how?

I'm saying it will be no different because its a lynch wagon either way and you haven't supported your assertion to the contrary.

I also am not amused by your smiley denial of understanding scum behavior. You've been here over 3 months and know exactly how scum play.

[[Low Key]]

I assumed that was the criteria because

that was what I was talking about when you started questioning me about this

.

So you want us to innocently believe the scum would use the vig then on D1?
Following along with your point then, how would that hurt the town?

And why it would be different even if I couldn't possibly define how - it's like asking somebody (who doesn't fully know) what the difference between jealousy and envy is. They know it's different, because it has to be, but it's subtle and they don't fully know what it means to substitute the new word.

This is a very nice point which I enjoyed reading but it doesn't apply. If you are going to say that the scum will act differently, you have to be able to define how/why or your point has no meaning whatsoever.

In fact, your assertion becomes anti-town because the advantage of two wagons today is definitely +town and puts the scum at a disadvantage which they would fear...

[[Low Key]]

How would a random Town member being killed on D1 on top of the (very likely mis)lynch be detrimental to the Town? Hmm, I wonder.

Rephrasing your question, your point reads: "The scum using the vig on D1 hurts the town".

Why do you want us to believe that the scum will use the vig on D1?

Now, how does two rushed Town deaths on D1

not

hurt the Town, huh?

Finally, what's wrong with two, more thought out wagons on D2?

How do the wagons on day 2 become any less "rushed"?

What makes that more anti-town than one kinda-thought-out-but-wrong wagon and a rushed deadline wagon on D1?

First of all we will have at least an entire week in which to analyze the wagon and interactions before the deadline. In this case however it looks like its going to be even more time, maybe even closer to two weeks.

Your argument fails here because you say two wagons are wrong because they are "rushed" while denying the following beneifts:

1) Two lynches for the town before night, the second being far more informed than the first which causes the scum to scramble harder
2) Proving if the town or the scum have the vig
3) Preventing the night death of the (town) vig before they can shoot

The idea of a town directed vig shot being bad for town because it causes "rushed" wagons is an inadequate and anti-town argument.

[[Low Key]]

I've actually changed my stance on using the day-vig ability.

How would you describe your thoughts on the matter when you first seemed to oppose it?
What were your thought processes as you changed your mind?

[[Low Key]]

Mod: Looks like we need to prod Pops now

pops is v/la to the 26th, so I won't be prodding pops today

[[Low Key]]

I want everyone's read on Toro.

I'd rather gather around the campfire, sing kumbaya and toast DK first. There will be plenty of time for all that once DK is removed from play.

[[Low Key]]

When I first opposed it I (as I said) thought it'd be a shot in the dark as I thought there were stronger chances at the time that the vig would shoot an innocent townie. My thoughts on DK and zMuffinMan buddying up (which there is strong evidence of this on this page, with DK trying to direct Muffin and Snake to do what he wants) have blown that entire thought process away.

I'm sorry but I'm not totally following this reasoning. Could you please elaborate?

[[Low Key]]

And I don't know exactly how scum behaviour would differ, because I don't know how scum behavior is normally

And... Yes, I've been on the site for three whole months. So long. Totally long enough for me to start caring enough to start going through games and looking at scum tactics and scum voting patterns and scum this and scum that.
Short answer: I haven't looked into scum play. Knowledge doesn't magically appear from time; you have to work at it. And I haven't worked at it yet.

Oh my.

Poor CJ doesn't know how scum thinks and is

only

3 months old huh?

As I was re-reading our exchanges I

actually

felt sorry for him and thought I was overdoing things but THEN I decided to check his age again and really verify that he was just a poor and innocent new player and look what I found!

Expert Sounding CJDrum

DUM BUM DUMMMMM!

[[Low Key]]

Maybe if the one-shot were to claim on D3, when we can decide for them who to kill, as a second vote?

Ok, so I guess I just misunderstood. You're saying we should just wait and use the vig shot on D3 then?

[[Low Key]]

Maybe if the one-shot were to claim on D3, when we can decide for them who to kill, as a second vote?

Ok, so I guess I just misunderstood. You're saying we should just wait and use the vig shot on D3 then?

This question is addressed to CJ.

When I first thought of when the vig should use their power (assuming they're town), I didn't think D1 was an ideal time to use it as I didn't think that we'd get THIS MUCH info out. I thought it would be more useful to use it D2 at the earliest when we could start establishing a clearer picture on who's who.

This is nice but doesn't address what is unclear about the original post. I will bold what I could not understand:

When I first opposed it I (as I said) thought it'd be a shot in the dark as I thought there were stronger chances at the time that the vig would shoot an innocent townie.

My thoughts on DK and zMuffinMan buddying up (which there is strong evidence of this on this page, with DK trying to direct Muffin and Snake to do what he wants) have blown that entire thought process away.

[[Low Key]]

I am getting a town feeling from [Low Key], but I don't know if he is headed in the right direction, Low Key post all your reads now.

I posted my reads here.

As of now many of them are in flux and are being worked to re-solidify:

Muffin
CJ
Toro
DJ

and to a minor extent: Parab and Pops.

The rest remain the same with any modifications which have already been stated in thread remaining in force.

[[Low Key]]

OK TIME FOR THE VIG CALL. IF ANYBODY HAMMERS THEY WILL BE AUTO-LYNCHED TOMORROW.

Town Vig

: Please do us a favor and declare your presence openly and quickly (no more than 72 hours from now) by shooting DK. Please also understand that we need to know that you are out there and need to see evidence of it today rather than tomorrow and your shot will do that for us.

[[Low Key]]

OK OOPS. Sorry we still need the hammer call. We need someone to express their desire to hammer so the vig can shoot. That means the person just needs to say "I want to hammer" and explain why.

[[Low Key]]

@Snake: Can you please explain why you voted for DK?

[[Low Key]]

When I first thought of when the vig should use their power (assuming they're town), I didn't think D1 was an ideal time to use it as I didn't think that we'd get THIS MUCH info out. I thought it would be more useful to use it D2 at the earliest when we could start establishing a clearer picture on who's who.

This is nice but doesn't address what is unclear about the original post. I will bold what I could not understand:

When I first opposed it I (as I said) thought it'd be a shot in the dark as I thought there were stronger chances at the time that the vig would shoot an innocent townie.

My thoughts on DK and zMuffinMan buddying up (which there is strong evidence of this on this page, with DK trying to direct Muffin and Snake to do what he wants) have blown that entire thought process away.

With their buddying up I felt that there was some sort of connection between the two so I felt the vig target should be used, I mean it's just flat-out suspicious how it appeared that DK would also turn to MuffinMan for help or tell him what to do.

I don't understand how this relates to your assertion that the vig should be used on D3?

[[Low Key]]

Well I still don't understand your thought processes at all. To clear it up, I would suggest the following:

1) Post your thought processes when you wanted the vig to be used D3.
2) Post the change in thought processes that caused to you agree with a D1 vig.
3) Explain how the bolded relates to number one and two.

I ask this because at this point I am thoroughly confused.

[[Low Key]]

This was all prior to DK blowing the door wide open.

This is the point I don't understand. How did DK "blow the door open"?

[[Low Key]]

That's not the only reason I believe DK is scum, I'm not doing it just to see a flip,

I genuinely believe he's scum

. My vote's not going anywhere on him.

Using it on D1 kind of looks as if you're shooting blindly in the dark...

So if the town agrees with your first quote, then how does your second quote make any sense?

So after vigging off DK, who would be your candidate for a lynch?

May I ask why you asked me this question in response to my post?

[[Low Key]]

Are you asking me that question right now in real time?

[[Low Key]]

My question to you though in post #314 was: Why did you ask me that question at that time in response to my question at that time?

The question still stands.

[[Low Key]]

@Muffin: I am encouraged by your last post. Thank you. (I mean that sincerely)

@Toro: Your question to me (when I made that post many pages ago) was a direct dodge of the question that I asked you and I want to know:

1) Why did you dodge that question?
2) Why did you ask the question?

[[Low Key]]

[[Low Key]]

Just woke up. Skimmed the thread.

Even if he IS town (which I don't see how you guys could be so convinced of this) there are really good reasons to not have him around. I have named them in my list several pages back. Three reasons that he is easily scum and four reasons why its good for the town to nuke him today.

Everybody has not yet weighed in on this so the wagon is far from stalled.

[[Low Key]]

@Pops: Are you caught up with the thread yet? I would like to see your reads on the game and such...

[[Low Key]]

1) I'm saying it is a scum strategy and a good possible motivation why he early claimed.
2) I'm saying he is trying to be "to scummy to be scum" on purpose.
3) No this is an ADDITIONAL reason to show how he is pulling a scum gambit. This reason pushed me over the edge.
4) You agree and this reason is enough to vig him and is one of the natural uses for a vig in fact.
5) Reasons 6 and 7 are good enough but the fact is he is using his claim as a shield and if we don't lynch him today he will ride as scum to the end of the game.
7) Wrong. He claimed VT if we go and open up two more people that's a total of 3 which leaves 6. If we just vig him and lynch someone else that leaves 7. Do the math.

Ok, the only person left to weigh in is Chkflip. If he is willing to hammer, the wagon is a go if not, it stalls.

[[Low Key]]

Sorry to have post this but when I said Chkflip would hammer I meant express his desire to hammer of course so we can vig DK.

[[Low Key]]

Maybe if the one-shot were to claim on D3, when we can decide for them who to kill, as a second vote?

Ok, so I guess I just misunderstood. You're saying we should just wait and use the vig shot on D3 then?

@CJ: You failed to answer this question.

[[Low Key]]

Now, how does two rushed Town deaths on D1

not

hurt the Town, huh?

Finally, what's wrong with two, more thought out wagons on D2?

How do the wagons on day 2 become any less "rushed"?

Your argument fails here because you say two wagons are wrong because they are "rushed" while denying the following beneifts:

1) Two lynches for the town before night, the second being far more informed than the first which causes the scum to scramble harder
2) Proving if the town or the scum have the vig
3) Preventing the night death of the (town) vig before they can shoot

The idea of a town directed vig shot being bad for town because it causes "rushed" wagons is an inadequate and anti-town argument.

We have covered this thought earlier but you did not respond...

[[Low Key]]

If the Vig shoots DK. All 6 votes on DK will be lost. Town then must fit a full lynch before deadline.

The votes are not lost. They are part of the record for the wagon analysis and we have plenty of time at this point to get it done.

If not. We lynch DK. Scum kill someone (

possibly

the vig). We make lynch and DayKill decision based on DK + NK flips, with the full Day length to do it.

So with this plan do the scum have the vig or the town?

As for your 1), 2), 3):
2) Is wrong, because of possible scum WIFOM and that.
3) Again, unlikely, and if/when DK flips Town we won't be needing it so much anyway.
1) Can be done even if it is done D2.

2) Scum WIFOM?? Either we force the scum to do our bidding or force them to prove they have the vig. How is that WIFOM?

3) You say its unlikely but you have understated the odds. The scum will not be NK-ing at random.

if/when DK flips Town we won't be needing it so much anyway.

We won't need the vig anyway?? What do you mean??

[[Low Key]]

I agree there is at least one scum on the wagon. I disagree there has to be two.

[[Low Key]]

I think we can agree there are two groups, on the wagon and off, and that there are scum to be found in both groups. I also think DK's flip will help this analysis tremendously.

[[Low Key]]

The ultimate point is that we do not know DK's alignment. If he flips scum I might even believe there are no scum on his wagon but this will have to be verified with actual analysis.

[[Low Key]]

I already know you don't agree Muffin and that's fine. I also know how you roll on determining scum tells (they only count if you personally think the person is scum otherwise they are just misinterpretations or just not scummy at all).

5-7 is not BS its simple math. I get it you just disagree. Don't worry I'm not trying to change your mind.

[[Low Key]]

Look we both have proven we can wall and I don't really think now is the time for it. There may be a time where it will be unavoidable but that just isn't right now ok?

[[Low Key]]

Lets just flip DK and be done with it.

[[Low Key]]

I've thought of this and since you suggested it, I am fine with it.

[[Low Key]]

@Muffin: Your post #357 made me go: O_o

[[Low Key]]

Based on Chkflp's posting schedules, he is able to post in the afternoons and so I hope he can catch up this afternoon for us.

[[Low Key]]

Well I was suprised I was on the list but I didn't expect you would respond, no.

[[Low Key]]

I think by the end of the day I am going to agree with very much of your analysis if I am reading it correctly.

[[Low Key]]

The way I see it, the best thing we can do today is nail two scum TODAY and I'm all for it.

[[Low Key]]

Yup it sure is. I like the red mouth in your avi. Where is that avi from anyway, I've seen it before but in a different form?

[[Low Key]]

@Muffin: I think our only disagreement will be who of the 4 possible scum is NOT actually scum and it will be more analysis based opinion more than anything else. That is, once again, if I am reading your analysis correctly.

[[Low Key]]

Ya the domo thing has a lot of charm. I think its the combination if it being a ferocious monster but yet kind of like a teddy bear at the same time. I just can't help focusing though on that bright red mouth...

[[Low Key]]

Ok, after Muffin's meta call for defending DK, I took a quick glance at DK's meta and I couldn't find a game where he had a playstyle similar to what he's playing here. Muffin, have you already played with DK before? Is there a specific game you could point out to support your POV of DK? I looked quickly at a game where he was scum, and he seemed to be a little more conservative than he is now (well at least before he claimed goon...), but still, I think I may need more than that to reconsider my position. I don't think meta can clear him at all, but it may be enough to not be able to draw any conclusion on DK's alignment, which may really hurt us. Usually, these kind of players should be lynched anyway because if they troll so much that we can't have any conclusion regarding their alignment then they are hurting the town. However, I really like the idea of going after Toro because it will definitely clear this ambiguity about DK, and get the town out of the stall it actually is.

Do you guys think we should make a mini-unofficial vote count for those who want to follow Muffin's plan and for those who wish to vig DK nontheless? I'm going to unofficially vigvote Toro.

Unvote

Wow look who popped up.

[[Low Key]]

@Snarky

&

@Toro

: How scummy is CJ to you? Is he town do you think?

[[Low Key]]

Both CJ & Toro agree that DJ is scummy pretty heavily. Toro tried to throw mud on Snarky and CJ says Snarky is 100% scum.

[[Low Key]]

What gets me here is that Snarky says CJ is strongly scum but Toro is neutral and DJ is null to scum with strong reasoning...

[[Low Key]]

But now Snarky comes back and looks so dang suspicious with his last post... Help me out here Muffin because I just can't seem to get a 3 man scum team out of these four whereas CJ-Toro look like the bobsey twins.

[[Low Key]]

@Muffin: What do you think about Pops/Parab? Could either of these be wildcards?

[[Low Key]]

If the scum team is CJ-Toro-Snarky, CJ and Snarky would have to be bussing each other. I can accept that Toro would throw some mud on Snarky as an after-thought but I guess what would confuse me the most is the dual bussing of CJ-Snarky. I'm going to re-read their exchanges.

[[Low Key]]

Ok I think I realize what happened now.

I had forgotten that CJ had "misplaced" his reads on Snarky. He ACTUALLY voted Spadille upon replacing in.

When I read his replace-in post I asked him for his Spadille reads (because they were totally missing!) and then BLAMMO he suddenly declares Spadille scum.

Snarky later even actually mentions how CJ was "obliged" to make a case on him and thus the dual bus.

Realizing this I am very comfortable now with the scum team of:

Toro-CJ-Snarky

[[Low Key]]

EBWOP: Should read "suddenly declares

Snarky

scum".

[[Low Key]]

Ok, after Muffin's meta call for defending DK, I took a quick glance at DK's meta and I couldn't find a game where he had a playstyle similar to what he's playing here. Muffin, have you already played with DK before? Is there a specific game you could point out to support your POV of DK? I looked quickly at a game where he was scum, and he seemed to be a little more conservative than he is now (well at least before he claimed goon...), but still, I think I may need more than that to reconsider my position. I don't think meta can clear him at all, but it may be enough to not be able to draw any conclusion on DK's alignment, which may really hurt us. Usually, these kind of players should be lynched anyway because if they troll so much that we can't have any conclusion regarding their alignment then they are hurting the town.

However, I really like the idea of going after Toro because it will definitely clear this ambiguity about DK, and get the town out of the stall it actually is.

Do you guys think we should make a mini-unofficial vote count for those who want to follow Muffin's plan and for those who wish to vig DK nontheless? I'm going to unofficially vigvote Toro.

Unvote

Wow look who popped up.

First of all, let me say that I find you to be a very slippery and crafty fellow. I think it is your ability to twist things so well that got me to think you were scum initially but I couldn't pin you down and just ended up feeling kind of guilty actually.

Your latest post tries very hard to get town opinion against DK while you yourself bus Toro. Almost the entirety of the post (the bolded) is about how much we need to off DK and the Toro part is just at the end. I believe your plan was to:

1) Try to get DK vigged by Chkflip if at all possible (a longshot)
2) Try and set up DK as the lynch for today
3) Remove yourself as a suspect that would be tied to Toro (when he flips scum) by calling for his vig

The reason I most believe this to be true is that you saw the winds of change when I agreed with Muffin to vig Toro and thus its the

timing

of your post in conjunction with its content that is the most condemning.

[[Low Key]]

Ya no prob DK. You ain't going down today. In fact the only way you die is if the scum NK you (don't worry they won't).

[[Low Key]]

all i care about is toro dying, the fact he was reaching on DK for that supposed scumslip is textbook scum and almost makes me believe there is no doubt in my mind of him being scum, whether vig or lynch, toro dies.

Oh ya it will be vig. When Toro flips as red as his avatar's mouth either CJ or Snarky will be up for the lynch.

[[Low Key]]

Ok good point. So you are saying that once Toro flips scum that will clear DK. Ok. I think the problem I had in understanding your post revolves around how much negative spin you continue to give to DK.

Here are the 4 probable scum: Toro, CJ, Snarky, DJ-Chkflip.

I pretty much call DJ-Chkflip not scum because all three of you agree that he's scum. Its possible I am wrong but that is how it looks to me. I also see a very strong and weird connection between you and CJ which I have pointed out.

If the scum are not in that 4 then the wildcards are Parab and Pops. Parab will be cleared when Toro flips scum as will Pops.

So the only contention here will be who are the two scum with Toro.

I'm pretty certain its you and CJ, Snarky.

[[Low Key]]

Although on reading that again I'm not entirely sure we can totally clear Pops... Her absence makes it tougher to get a full read. She could actually still be scum and just very strongly defended DK who appeared to be on the chopping block. Its just she is a strong town read whereas the evil four are definitely not. So that makes her a distant wildcard.

[[Low Key]]

Here are excerpts from my notes:

1) Says Muffin is scummy regardless of DK's flip (?) (+scum)
2) Discourages D1 vig and advocates D3 vig instead! (*scum).
3) Case fishes my second vote after DK is vigged + question dodge. (+scum).
4) Answers D3 question for CJ (??).

I think it was post #188 that absolutely screamed scum from you. That's just off the top of my head, not a formal case or anything.

[[Low Key]]

I mean your overall profile replacing in was to throw up a fluff player analysis, jump on the biggest BW to tunnel it and set up a chain mislynch. I wasn't impressed.

[[Low Key]]

Its not like we need a case though because you aren't getting lynched.

[[Low Key]]

This is

Deadly Alliance

baby!

[[Low Key]]

Wow you actually voted CJ

Amazing what the pressure of the crosshairs will do.

[[Low Key]]

Well the reasoning I recall more strongly indicates you are scum (the fact that he tried to delay the use of the vig and confirm that it was in the hands of town) because you both were guilty of it, it lends more credence to your lie about not purposely dodging my question to you when I brought it up (#3 from my list) and implicates you as scum for answering the question about D3 usage for him.

Was that the reasoning you were indicating?

[[Low Key]]

@Toro: You ever see that movie where there are these two guys and they are called into the office of the mob boss and they're standing on plastic? You know the movie I'm talking about?

[[Low Key]]

LowKey what specifically do you want to hear from me?

Well your reads of each player. You haven't done that yet.

[[Low Key]]

Ok, then top 3-4 scum suspects please with reasoning.

[[Low Key]]

Well the mob boss guy kills one of the guys and the henchmen wrap him up in plastic. The other guy looks down and the boss asks him what he's doing and he replies that he was checking to see if he was standing on plastic (*rimshot*).

I was thinking that you probably feel right now like that guy right about now.

I'm sorry but the only reasoning that I can gather from your unvote is that you are in immediate danger of being vigged and you want to bus your partner in an attempt to save him for a night or two.

[[Low Key]]

Level 1 Obvious.
Level 2 Well since it was obvious it couldn't be true.
Level 3 Well since it would be obvious and couldn't be true, it is true.

You are making a level 2 play and I'm reading it as a level 3.

[[Low Key]]

What I really want to know is how you

really

feel about Snarky. Please don't hold back and give me all the juicy details.

[[Low Key]]

Earlier you mentioned that he had memory problems regarding DK=DietyKabuto, how serious of a scum tell do you think that is?

[[Low Key]]

(Editor's note: Both Snarky and Toro browsed in here after I posted #423 and silence)

[[Low Key]]

Wow very insightful. Your post also reminded me of how CJ started off voting Spadille, forgot to even put in ANY reads for Snarky and then *presto* insta-Snarky scum when asked for his Snarky reads.

pedit: Well the silence was deafening.

[[Low Key]]

I didn't want to say this until the issue actually came up, since it could lead to WIFOM, but there seems to be enough confusion over it: If the vig does not take out the L-1 target, we learn more than what you suggest. This is all assuming a town vig agrees with the plan. If the scum have the vig, they wouldn't hesitate to use it if the L-1 target was a townie.

Therefore, if the vig doesn't act, we can assume that both the scum have the vig

and

the L-1 target is scum

, since scum wouldn't take out their team mate. Hopefully this will convince the vig, if they are a townie, that they should act today. Vig, if you are town, please realize going with this line of thought provides a lot more info.

There is actually more to the picture (pretty big thing) but I can't discuss it until the vig shot is processed.

@[Low Key]: Your change of heart on DK was very sudden. From being to eager to vig/lynch/sing kumbaya to going after Toro and not even mentioning DK as part of your theoretical scum team. What was the main thing that caused this change? You agree with Snarky's meta analysis? I don't think your reasons in #401 are stronger than the case against DK. popsofctown gives a much more convincing argument in the recent #425.

Yes this is true. I am in fact suprised that neither Snarky nor Toro actually brought this up. I will describe my overall game plan:

My analysis on DK was all 100% genuine. My plan was to push for his vig which I felt was good for the town regardless of his actual alignment. I felt he could easily flip scum and easily not, but either way he had to go.

My plan was to begin a strong scum hunting push after his vig from a pool of 5 people:

Muffin, Toro, CJ, Snarky, DJ

I was certain that there would be scum in that list. While DK was at L-1, I began to talk to Muffin. Muffin said a couple of things to me that made me sure he was actually town and brought me to remove his name from the pool of five. At that point it was like someone turned on a light in a dark room and I realized that we had this game cracked wide open.

Once I examined the interactions of the remaining evil four, it became pretty clear to me which three we should be looking at.

The process will begin with Toro flipping scum by vig.

Also on my Toro case, I haven't actually formulated the whole thing like an actual case but you can see the bare bones of it there. I would say that Toro is more subtle as scum and I have caught him hiding things and actually acting badly with a scum purpose. My case on DK was basically "too scummy to be scum" + "severe town liability in several ways". I prefer the subtle scum cases to the overt ones. I too wanted to see if he would flip scum and shed light on Muffin but we have a much better way now.

[[Low Key]]

Oh, there is something else about Muffin that I cannot disclose at this time but I will at some point.

[[Low Key]]

Ok Toro, then I'm sorry and I apologize for that.

[[Low Key]]

Also, for the record, Muffin is an

expert

player. I don't know who his alt is but I suspect he is a vet that goes back several years. The notion that he would defend DK as his scum partner just absolutely does not compute in any way shape or form.

[[Low Key]]

Low Key, why do you want Toro vigged rather than Snarky or DonJosh

It is the first step in confirming Muffin's alignment.

[[Low Key]]

Also, btw I have meta on Muffin where he

does

defend other townies as town.

[[Low Key]]

Oh, fun fact: My "kumbaya" posting had a dual meaning. Of course it meant we all vig DK but it ALSO meant "ignore other scummy behavior for the moment until the vig happens"; i.e. just sing and deal with it after.

[[Low Key]]

That's cause I'm a bawss. (anyone who gets the joke gets 5 gold stars)

"Like a Boss" music video by Lonely Island.

@[Low Key] Thanks for clarifying. Your position is looking a lot better to me now. zMuffinMan is looking less scummy to me than in my previous read, though I still can't figure out DK's position on him. Certainly a Toro vig/lynch would confirm a lot about zMuffinMan, and perhaps parabollocks too.

Ya, its gonna be hard sometimes to figure out DK. I think Pops will look good with Toro scum too.

Have you noticed? Toro doesn't sound anything like a town-aligned person should when suspected by town.

[[Low Key]]

Thanks for clearing that up Snarky.

[[Low Key]]

Well you aren't even really on the suspect list. Its just if our evil four fails you will prob be the top.

You gotta hand it to Snarky though, he's very smooth; subtly pushes an agenda so he can incur no guilt while covering his bases (like he doesn't know Toro is scum).

[[Low Key]]

That avatar of his kind of represents the feeling I get when reading his posts.

pedit: errrm, you're claiming vig? I think you're lying.

[[Low Key]]

YOU VIGGED SNARKY!?

[[Low Key]]

Sure he's Vanilla (Vanilla Scum) XD

[[Low Key]]

Yikes I think the Mod is still here, we should get the shot any minute.

[[Low Key]]

Hey Toro we're gonna find out if DK = Diety Kabuto or not.

[[Low Key]]

Exactly! Or like you say, "soitenly"

[[Low Key]]

Grats on summer break.

[[Low Key]]

You're right.

Welp.

[[Low Key]]

You almost fooled us Snarky. I think you really are sneaky though. I mean you really are good at it.

[[Low Key]]

Welcome! There are some fun parts to read too.

I would like your reads on: Toro, CJ, Snarky

Thanks!

[[Low Key]]

Welcome! There are some fun parts to read too.

I would like your reads on: Toro, CJ, Snarky

Thanks!

Ok this post will be waiting when you get done. Don't worry its fun though.

[[Low Key]]

OH YA BABY CRACK THIS BABY WIDE OPEN OH YA!

[[Low Key]]

[[Low Key]]

Time to take the bull by the horns!

Vote Toro

[[Low Key]]

Ya believe it or not she could STILL be bussing but I'd rather lynch Parab over her now. Its hilarious how both the scum both totally bussed CJ. But I guess we'll have all of D2 to hash that out (in case it wasn't bussing).

[[Low Key]]

oops sorry spidey.

[[Low Key]]

@Chkflip:

Welcome! There are some fun parts to read too.

I would like your reads on: Toro, CJ,

Snarky

Thanks!

[[Low Key]]

Toro-Snarky are obvscum. Just woke up but ITT Toro admits to being partners with Snarky by default.

[[Low Key]]

Also only skimmed but by CJ's last post he is obvscum too. Which means Chkflip is not the last scum.

[[Low Key]]

Second, Low Key.

Both CJ & Toro agree that DJ is scummy pretty heavily. Toro tried to throw mud on Snarky and CJ says Snarky is 100% scum.

I never said DJ was heavily scum. I said he was my other choice for scum if the scumteam wasn't Snarky/Spadille/Archaist, which I am 98% sure about.
And yes I said Snarky was 100% scum. This was correct. Problem?

Ya major problem. Your scum list sucks. I mean go ahead with this list if you want to be lynched BEFORE Toro but if you want to make it to the night phase you should just meekly vote Toro for us mmkay?

[[Low Key]]

@CJ: Just think of the benefit of not getting lynched today -- you get the opportunity to NK me.

Its a win-win bro.

[[Low Key]]

Actually, it's going to take a while for me to re-read this, so just briefly.

Snarky scum =

DK town
pops town
toro

prob-town

SCUM

/fixed.

Snake is a good lynch. More later.

This is incredibly FAIL. Have you just not been reading the thread??

[[Low Key]]

Snarky didn't at all read like a busser. Where is your head at LK?

No time now, we have to find the next scum though.

Did you not notice how Toro put up no defence whatsoever?

And ftr, Snarky WAS bussing CJ and so would have no problems bussing Toro either.

But sure, look at CJ's last posts and his

terribad scummy scum scum

scum list. If you wanna lynch him first fine, I'm all for it too.

[[Low Key]]

Ok and a brief explanation of the significance of the day vig. The two scenarios are:

1)

The scum have the vig

-- their ultimate goal would be to hold it until D3 following 2 mislynches by town which is an AUTO-SCUM-WIN. That's right. If town mislynches twice and the scum have the vig there is NO DAY 3.

Now you can see why I was pushing so hard with these questions.

2)

The town has the vig

-- ok here the scum motivation is to delay the use of the vig so the scum can try to NK them.

Now Toro actually manufactured a mindset change on this issue in-thread, dodged a question about it and then lied about doing so and even answered a question about it for CJ and has lied about that too. He has also demonstrated knowledge of why he should be lying and did so unprompted. Both he and CJ replaced into this thread and started setting up mislynches as well.

[[Low Key]]

Strong Town

popsofctown
Spadille
SnakePlissken
Arch
DeityKabuto

Unconfirmed Town

Parabollocks
Muffin

Scum

CJ
Toro

Snarky

DJ-Chikflip

[[Low Key]]

@DJ: I don't think you are the third scum but we actually do need your reads on CJ.

[[Low Key]]

@Toro: I can throw up quotes but simply it was your overall attitude during the time when you would of been certain that you were being vigged. You basically offered no defense and just remained very passive. Town doesn't act that way.

I think your vote for CJ is quite good and am willing to lynch either one of you today. Right now CJ is looking far and away more scummy than you are but you both have been the scum of this thread.

[[Low Key]]

Unofficial

Votecount 1.9.1

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Toro(4): Parabollocks, [Low Key], Archaist, Snake
DeityKabuto(1): Spadille
chkflip(1): popsofctown
Parabollocks(1): chkflip
cjdrum(1): Toro
Spadille(1): CJ

Not Voting(2): DeityKabuto, Muffin

The vote by CJ speaks volumes as to why he's scum.

[[Low Key]]

@Muffin: I was willing to compromise with you on Dk, I'll offer you the same deal on Snake and let's lynch CJ. Ok?

[[Low Key]]

Well on DK:

1) There is no way that Snarky would of bussed a buddy that hard so early and all day long
2) Snarky also fence-sat that vote so hard it made my nose bleed, further indication that DK is town

[[Low Key]]

One advantage of lynching Toro today is that we can move BOTH Muffin and Parab into the confirmed town slot. By lynching CJ only Muffin goes to confirmed (if he follows along).

[[Low Key]]

Scum won't bus their partners on the way out, especially when they are certain of death. They would rather accuse a townie so that townie will be cleared.

Does anybody believe that assertion? I mean c'mon!

[[Low Key]]

Hey I just found something:

Don hasn't posted much content, but I find his vote on PB less odd for some reason than the one of pops.

Wow pretty ironic as Pops ends up shooting Snarky!

Remember, this was when DJ (Don) made that awful FoS for Parab and followed it up with the populist Vote-Upon-Demand.

I pointed out how odd this was in my case against Snarky but I said that I couldn't figure out why he did it. I think we have our answer now!

(hint: "for some reason" = Don is scum!)

This is a real winner:

Unvote, Vote Chkflip

[[Low Key]]

Ya DJ wasn't to Snarky's liking either

[[Low Key]]

What is "perposterous" was that he could say that DJ's vote was better than Pops' (town) in any way. Nobody saw that (everybody saw the opposite) and the only "some reason" for it is that you are scum and he was defending your slot.

So ya. You are in the evil list of 4 with a solid connection to known scum.

[[Low Key]]

So that's how you defend here? Flail more.

[[Low Key]]

So that's how you defend here? Flail more.

[[Low Key]]

(hint: Snarky called DJ-Chkflip his scum buddy)

[[Low Key]]

Can you explain how DJ's vote was better than Pops'?

I sure as heck can't but I CAN sure explain how Snarky would of been covering for DJ-scum who was looking pretty bad.

To make it easier you just call it "miniscule".

[[Low Key]]

OK finally an actual defense from you. Glad you finally got around to it.

If Snarky had a brain at all, and I'm sure he did, then he spent the D1 he was here to plant seeds and send people on goose chases D2 forward. Now that he's dead? Here we are.

Occam's Razor here is pretty clear (the simplest solution is the correct one).

So you would have us believe that Snarky saw DJ make a scumtastic move and so he thought to himself, "Hmmm, let's throw out a goose egg and make ourselves look scummy/strange rather than pointing out the obvious." Waaaat??

Nope not buying it. Hang.

[[Low Key]]

That's the point, he called someone behaving in a scummy way a townie AND in the process implicated himself WHICH MAKES NO SENSE.

[[Low Key]]

OK so now he's newbscum and not a scheming, clever plotter?? You really are flailing now.

[[Low Key]]

Now you have just ceased to even make sense.

So far your "defense" is hangtastic.

[[Low Key]]

Well you have yet to adequately explain how Snarky's actions actually make sense. Instead you have thrown up multiple contradictory theories and weird unrelated comments and just called it all "miniscule". The reason it isn't "miniscule" as you say is because it is a connection to known scum and once again, you have failed to adequately explain a possible motivation for his actions.

So would you care to try again?

[[Low Key]]

Ok, "No" is probably the best answer here. Took you long enough to get around to that too. I think we're lynching you unless you can come up with a better candidate.

[[Low Key]]

(hint: this is a good time to bus your partner)

[[Low Key]]

come on Loki, that's gratuitous

I think not. My job is to determine the sincerity of his defense. I would expect a townie defense to run like this:

Ok, there IS something wrong here. Let me pull up the quotes and see. Wow, that really WAS a weird comment and from known scum too. I don't have any ready explanation but I've read the thread and I think (Toro/CJ) is scum because of this and such etc.

Instead I have not seen any evidence he actually read the thread, we've seen his weird VT-caim obfuscation and then he actually tries to weasel out of it with weird contradictory reasoning and finally rage quits.

I don't see townie there. Sorry if I offended you Pops.

[[Low Key]]

Ya and that "chainsaw" thing was

really

weird.

[[Low Key]]

I was listening but I didn't hear town.

[[Low Key]]

Arch is fail I'm telling you right now. I think you need to re-read.