Newbie 1117(Town Wins)

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/confirm

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Hi everyone, I'll be your IC in this game. Feel free to ask me any gameplay questions you have. Here are a few useful links; I also recommend reading a few of our games, since it's one of the best ways to get a feel for how to play.

Newbie Guide
Commonly Used Abbreviations
How to Be Awesome

I'll try to lead by example, and also do more teaching as the game goes along. There are a few things I'd like to mention right away, though. First of all, never claim your role unless it's necessary. Even if you're a vanilla townie, you'll just be helping scum find power roles. The usual time to claim is when you're 1 vote away from being lynched (L-1), and someone is willing to hammer (place the lynching vote).

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Oops, I hit submit instead of preview.

Along the same lines, if someone is at L-1, don't hammer if they haven't claimed. And if you're town, never selfhammer (place the final vote on yourself). It goes against your win condition.

Finally, when there are 3 townies and 2 scum, or 2 townies and 1 scum, left, it's known as Lynch-or-Lose (LyLo). Don't vote until you're sure someone is scum, because the remaining mafia are able to quickhammer (place the last votes and win the game). This won't come up for a while, and hopefully not at all, but I wanted to say something before I forget.

Good luck, and enjoy the game!

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VOTE: Bbmolla

Star charts can't be wrong.

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^^I'd like to ask the above questions to everyone.

How do you think those questions will help determine other players' alignments?

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@Toasty and SRG: I guess that's reasonable, although I don't think these particular questions will lead to much discussion.

1. I prefer being scum. Since town is more common, it's more exciting to be the bad guy.
2. Nah, I couldn't murder my own grandma.

I think it ends once we have some leads Red.

Right...there's no time limit, but it's best to move on as soon as we can.

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Anyhow, i really don't want to get too tunneled on this right now, still waiting for some players to jump in so:

VOTE: Quackerz

VOTE: SomeRandomGuy

How is it pro-town to return to a random vote when you already have legitimate suspicions?

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Anyhow, i really don't want to get too tunneled on this right now, still waiting for some players to jump in so:

VOTE: Quackerz

VOTE: SomeRandomGuy

How is it pro-town to return to a random vote when you already have legitimate suspicions?

Because my case is well and truly made, i have no where else to go with it right now until he responds, what i don't want to do is narrow the game to a single line of investigation. As it stands i will be putting my vote back onto BBmolla as i believe his thoughts and responses have been nothing but scummy. I'm hoping seeing a vote on himself Quackerz will join in. I want more than one lead to go with in this day phase.

So, the Quackerz vote is basically pressure to provide content. But wouldn't a BBmolla vote create more pressure, and be more useful, because it is for a serious reason?

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Well, lurking is a somewhat serious reason, but it's a null tell IMO.

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Ugh, wallposts (large blocks of rambling text) on page 3. Actually, this ended up as a wall, too, but I promise not to post them too often.

The fact that he stated he answered them so no one would call him scum is a little...selfish. Don't know if that's the right word, but saying that instead of agreeing that it brings on more discussion isn't pro-town to me.

I'm not going to sheep and say that something is a great idea if I have issues with it.

Also, I personally do not FoS Random at this point in time, I think his arguement is pretty logical tbh. Seeing how people react under pressure is a good idea because I know for a fact people will react differently, whether intentionally or not, when they're scum under pressure and town under pressure.

I mentioned the not hammeran because I didn't want to die with my song unsung.

This doesn't really address the entire point. IMO, answering the questions to avoid being called scum shows a scummy instinct for survival. What do you have to say to that?

@Bo
I resent RVS because in EM you would normally NL d1, or if you were crazy you were bandwagon and rl. EM is different though because most games start in the night phase, so the first day something has already happened.
However, because every game does use RVS here, it must be proven to work better. I'm not too happy with it, the thought of lynching a PR or outing one d1 is not a pleasant idea for me. But I'm not going to force an NL if people don't agree with me.

Since you brought it up, let me discuss a bit of theory. No lynching Day 1 is a terrible option. Assuming the scum succesfully nightkill, it leaves us with a 6:2 town-to-scum ratio instead of 5:2 if we lynched. Why is that bad? We lose a mislynch.

6:2 (no lynch + nightkill)
4:2 (first mislynch + nightkill)
2:2 (second mislynch + nightkill, game over)

5:2 (first mislynch + nightkill)
3:2 (second mislynch + nightkill, we still have one more mislynch)

@Haze: If you need clarification for any abbreviations, just ask.

SRG's reactions look town to me. He seems to believe what he's saying, and is sincerely looking for scum. Kad is a bit confused, but his thought processes are townish.

UNVOTE: SomeRandomGuy
VOTE: BBMolla

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@Toasty: I believe you still have a random vote on. What are your reads so far?

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BTW, just so you know I read the rules.

I like the post about me being defensive or whatever by trying to NL

, I don't see how this makes me ignorant of the rules.

And, those who voted me, give a second FoS please.

The song unsung is a reference to a song.

And @bvoigt I say you're pulling for straws with scumtells. We "lose" a mislynch that is almost guaranteed to kill a blue, I don't see how that's extremely beneficial. Forget about the NLing.

Once again, don't hammer. Gonna tally up the votes and see how many I have.

Is the bolded referring to me? I wasn't saying that the suggestion made you scummy, just explaining why it was a bad idea.

Again, you're not really addressing the real point. It's easy to say I'm "pulling for straws," but that doesn't defend against my point about trying to look good and stay alive by answering the questions.

As for a FoS, I'd say ToastyToast. He's posting fairly often, but doesn't seem to be offering much scumhunting.

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@Toasty: I believe you still have a random vote on. What are your reads so far?

I will be making a list today, but I think random-BB is town on town

Yes, I'm totes not scumhunting. Even quakerz is doing a better job at that!

You haven't done much, for the number of posts you have.

I'm too hardcore for rules bro.

Be lucky these rules are standard. One day you'll be in a large theme and wind up modkilled for breaking a post restriction

All these long posts....mafiascum was completely shut down for me for a while so I apologize if I don't have much to say regarding the last page. People other than the 4 of us need to talk.

Newbies: Lurking may seem like a great strategy when you first start playing (both as town or mafia). Perhaps if town you are worried about putting your opinions out there, but we need your voice to get a read on you.

Mafia and PR's may lurk because they want to avoid attention. This only directs suspicion towards you.

For example, this post came at a time when there was a decent amount of stuff to respond to. While you gave good advice, I don't see anything here that is trying to discern someone's alignment.

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Toasty's case is...meh. Some of the points are good, but others don't really make sense. (His post has numbers; check them to see what I'm referring to.)

1. I would agree with this. Red, why didn't you answer the random questions?
2. This point might be valid later in the game. But at this stage, I think reads can change pretty quickly, especially when you have a few pages to catch up on.
3. I'd agree with your first bullet point, but you admit that his second reason is valid, and since Red had already outlined a couple of reasons, it wasn't just a gut read. I don't think the vote was scummy.

It shows us an obsession against SEEMING like scum. As a VT I can't see what BB has to fear about looking scummy is; unless you think that either your powers of deduction or your role is valueble to the townies, I don't personally see any real problem with dying; it's part of the game and allows others to move on and pick up deductions from there. Only two situations I see here are that BB's a power role or you're scummy.

Where are you going with this speculation? It looks like rolefishing (trying to provoke unnecessary claims) to me. BBmolla isn't going to claim scum, so all you're going to do here is possibly out a power role.

Is this you claiming VT or alluding to BB as being VT?

After this, you go on to clearly explain why VT claims are anti-town. So what pro-town reason do you have for asking this question? Haze, it's better if you don't clarify what you meant.

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3. I'd agree with your first bullet point, but you admit that his second reason is valid, and since Red had already outlined a couple of reasons, it wasn't just a gut read. I don't think the vote was scummy.

I had a problem with his interpretation of the event. Anyone can plead not to get lynched. He didn't mention the timing at all, which I consider to be the most important part.

IMO, the timing thing was pretty clear in context, since it's obvious when you read the thread that BB was nowhere near being lynched.

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Unfortunately my reads are highly biased from whose been voting me and who hasn't been so I need to work more on looking at it from a different point of view. Not much to say until the replacement and Quackerz post more. Feel free to ask me anything if you guys want, once I get some reads on the replacement and Quackerz I'll throw out a vote.

What

are

your reads on the other 7 players?

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Haze, would you please explain why you were speculating about BB's role?

BB, why are you suspicious of Bo?

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i did answer them ?
i said i wouldnt try to manipulate my own grandma into a plot to kill her.

Toasty, did you see this?

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@Mod:

Could we please get prods on kad and Quackerz?

MuffinMan is looking town so far. He's seeing a lot of the same things I saw with Toasty's IIoA, and weak case on Redcolbalt.

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I'm sooo going to rage at you two the next time I post.
The game is 6 pages long. Sorry if I don't get reads in the first 4 pages of a game. It takes more than that for me to think things through. Hence why the beginning play is complete BS.

More later, not in the mood atm

But you weren't doing much to get any reads. For example, this post contains some good advice, but you didn't ask any questions to discern alignments.

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I asked him if he thought bb and srg were scum together. This idea was largely rhetorical, because I don't believe/see that at all. As such, the other option is that one is scum and the other isn't. This leads to chaining lynches, which is VERY scummy.

Why couldn't they be a scumteam? SRG has voiced suspicions of BB, but his vote is still on Quackerz. Other than that point, I have a town read on SRG; however, if BB flips scum, I'll be looking carefully at their interactions.

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You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

I think the funniest part is that I was going to add that I stopped posting because whenever I posted it seemed to hurt me more than harm me but I didn't because I thought I'd get call scummy for saying it.

I voted for RedCobalt because of Toast's reasonings seeming to make sense, even though I didn't analyze them completely.

I don't like either of these posts. What's your concern with having different reads from other players? And how do the two bolded lines match up? Also, "I thought I'd get called scummy" continues to show a survival-oriented motivation.

@Haze: Pretty much what Muffin said. Since he's coming to the same conclusions as me, he probably has the same perspective and motivations.

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Were we really in danger of a quicklynch?

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My original suspicions on BBmolla are confirmed with this post: (snip)

What about his post makes you suspicious?

What's your concern with having different reads from other players?

Should two townies really get different reads most of the time? Just seems a bit odd.

Before I respond to this, one question: what players, exactly, have different reads from you?

And how do the two bolded lines match up?

They don't. My reasoning wasn't very well thought out so I didn't really have a true reason to vote him.

Well, it seems like a contradiction to me...first saying "I can't specifically state why," then saying, "I voted for RedCobalt because of Toast's reasonings."

Also, "I thought I'd get called scummy" continues to show a survival-oriented motivation.

Cool.

Do you have a response to this point? I think it's legitimate.

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@SRG: I see where you're coming from; however, Kad looks town to me. His posts would definitely be scummy for someone with more experience, but I see them as newbie-tells. Also, the "trying to see if mafia will hammer" thing from ISO #2 doesn't seem like something he would fake as scum.

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I'm thinking Toast is scum, for the reasons I explained in previous posts.

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What's your concern with having different reads from other players?

Should two townies really get different reads most of the time? Just seems a bit odd.

Before I respond to this, one question: what players, exactly, have different reads from you?

All. Mainly the read on Toast.

Hmm...I guess I see where you're coming from. But my other points still stand.

Also, my point was that logic should always take priority over gut. Redcolbalt voted BB with poor reason and had decent reasons to vote for srg. But he didn't. Why? because srg is at this point in the game considered by most to be a townread.

This explanation doesn't make much sense. Most people have a town read on SRG at this point in the game, but Red's post came at the top of page 4. At the time, SRG had at least two votes on him.

Also, if you'll excuse an IC-tangent: I recently read an good post here in Mafia Discussion. The "For Townies" section was especially interesting. For some players, gut is much more accurate than logic. Of course, it's hard to convince other players with gut, but it's pretty useful for scumhunting.

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Instinct begins an investigation, proof/reasons are what lynch a person. Once again, redcolbalt was getting scummy vibes from srg, too, yet he still picks bbmolla(gut, sheeping, poor reasoning) over srg (gut, original thoughts, some remnants of a case). Comprende?

I actually thought Red's case on BB was stronger than his case on SRG. He also had reason to believe SRG was town:

Random, started scummy, but he has over the posts, kinda like showed me that he is to clean to be scum, he is willing to open up and explain his ideas without holding anything back. I still kinda think your "null"

And as I said in my last post, the sheeping/bandwagoning thing is not true. SRG had two votes on him at the time; if Red voted SRG, you could easily accuse him of sheeping with that vote as well.

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bv can you do a recap of why BB is your top suspect now?

He often shows an instinct for survival, answering the random questions even when he didn't like them. He did this again later on, admitting that he didn't say something because it might make him look scummy. He contradicted himself about his reasons for voting Redcolbalt. And as verydark said, despite having EpicMafia experience, he doesn't seem committed to any of his reads.

@Mod

: Have you prodded kad2361 and Redcolbalt?

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Also, as more experienced players, I have a question. Would it be wise to push BB to L-1 and force him to claim, or do we wait for some responses in defense to his possible quicklynch?

Sorry, I meant to respond to this and forgot. As Muffin said, only put him at L-1 if you think he's the best lynch for today. However, @BB: if you are at L-1, don't just claim automatically. Only claim if someone not on the wagon is willing to hammer. Likewise, don't hammer anyone without a claim.

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@Red: You haven't posted much in the last few pages. Any comments?

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FoSes on Kad and Red because they're the only ones playing as bad if not worse than myself.

Do you think bad play makes someone more likely to be scum? IMO, it's only indicative of experience.

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Also, I'm worried that I'm the only one who is noticing the obvious reason that BB is town. And it's a very, very obvious reason at that. Although possibly a gambit, it's much more likely to come from bb-town than bb-scum... Yet people aren't even commenting on it, let alone making references to it. Weird. And yes, I know I'm being somewhat subtle here, but if you know what I'm talking about, then you know what I'm talking about, and if you don't, then you don't need to know.

Actually, you may be right. While I still think BB is scum, he's probably not the best lynch for today.

UNVOTE: BBmolla
VOTE: ToastyToast

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srg might be flying under the radar right now, and were skipping iver a few people...

Do you think you've been under the radar so far?

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ya, so vote me

I think it's pretty obvious why this is a silly thing to say, regardless of alignment. It's similar to selfvoting: if you get lynched, all it does is hurt your faction. There are a couple exceptions (outed scum might want to end discussion more quickly), but right now, asking for votes just makes your side less likely to win.

ya, so vote me

....

Unvote:Vote:kad2361

Do you think the statement you quoted makes kad more likely to be scum? If so, why?

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@BB: Same question I asked Toasty. Do you believe asking for votes makes Kad more likely to be scum? If so, why?

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It seems to me that he's a town member that doesn't care, which in the long run could be more detrimental to the town than a scum member hiding amongst the town.

However, he could possibly be scum trying to throw us off by asking to be lynched.

You're voting a town read? We can win with a somewhat anti-town townie alive. We can't win if we don't lynch scum.

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With 5.5 days until the deadline, it's time to see who's a reasonable lynch candidate and who isn't. It would be nice if the people who aren't voting place a vote. Really, IMO, you should always be voting on the first two days; it places pressure on your suspect and lets others know what you're thinking.

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"It seems to me that he's a town member that doesn't care" is a dumb read?

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BV, how would you normally attempt to distinguish Village Idiot from Mafia?

I try to read their posts and think about the underlying motivations. Are they writing from a town perspective or a scum perspective? And I still have a slight town read on Kad.

Look, I'm not 100% certain he's mafia. There only way I would know for sure is if he cc'd me as a PR. All I do know is I wouldn't want him to be with me in a 3 way LYLO, and there is no way, if he is town, that the mafia is going to kill him.

He is either:
A. Mafia.
B. A town member who doesn't care.

Yes. A town member who doesn't care would be a dumb read.

Well yeah, he's either mafia or town. Which one do you think he is? It still sounds to me like you actually have a town read on him.

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What i am interested in also though is the speed the bus began rolling onto kad, there seemed to be little or no defence of him when this seems to be the closest to lynch we've taken someone and it's becoming an actual possibility but Bv did kind of stand by questioning as it happened.

That's right...I'm not supporting a kad lynch. I think that the votes for saying "ya, so vote me" are pretty opportunistic. It's not a scumtell to say that, because it's just plain bad for any alignment. It doesn't help him if he's scum.

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Looking at verydark - he replaced Quackers, who had a single post with no content in it. I don't really have all too much of an issue with verydark, nothing really looks all that scummy in his posts, I just don't like his tunneling of BB. I want to look at verydark's scum meta before I decide on anything else here.

Could you clarify what "Scum Meta" is for me? I wouldn't really call my analysis of BB "tunneling", I replaced in kinda late, and did a blanket analysis of everyone, and decided he's my top pick for scum. It seems like many people agree with me. If this wagon on Kad catches on, I might jump on board, because it always rubs me the wrong way when a players responds with "so vote for me then". It's an easy out, that is both suspicious and anti-town.

The purpose of the game is to have a discussion and to actively scum hunt, if you are under scrutiny for your actions- it is your DUTY to defend yourself as a townie. The last thing I want is to lynch a townie because they were too lazy to actually play the game.

If you have completed games as scum, that would be "scum meta."

What makes asking for votes suspicious? It's a bad play, undoubtedly, but I don't think it makes sense for scum. It's also kad's duty to defend himself if he's scum.

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Guys, the deadline is under 2 days away. As I explained earlier, we need to lynch someone.

UNVOTE: ToastyToast
VOTE: BBmolla

I think this has more support.

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BB is at L-1.

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Was almost sure hammer was inc. Regardless, whether someone was going to hammer or not is pretty irrelevent; if I'm at L-1 why should I wait for someone to say "I'm going to hammer on you." when there is no clear reason why the lynch would possibly change? And Blue is VT.

Voidedmafia said it well: many wagons stall at L-1, so why not wait to claim until you

know

someone wants to hammer? Just look at our current situation. Everyone is voting either kad or you, except Muffin, and he's leaning towards voting kad. Your lynch is certainly not inevitable.

[bvoigt]

So, read through BB in ISO, pretty sure he's town. Read through kad in ISO, thoroughly unimpressed. I'm probably not going to change my mind at this point, but I wanna read back over the last few pages and look at how the wagons developed before I vote.

Why do you think BB is town? You mentioned his PR softclaims earlier, but now he's claimed vanilla, so....

That said, I had to look up in the wiki what "Blue" meant.

I believe it's the EpicMafia term for a Vanilla Townie.

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I truly and honestly believe I can contribute more to this town then kad; and I think a ML would be well spent on him.

You said just a few posts ago that kad was your scummiest read. Now, you think he's a mislynch?

uh, just quickly because I'm busy atm, but the reason I thought BBmolla was softclaiming a PR is because he said he had something to say but couldn't say it without outing his role, which to me suggests soft-claiming a PR. But when he actually claimed VT, he said something along the lines of "my defense was just going to be lynch me" or something to that effect, which made me look back and realise I probably did misinterpret the softclaiming. But I also think he's town independent of that.

What else makes you think he's town?

@BB: soft-claiming as a VT actually can help town a lot, you just have to do it really well (see Andrius, whose title is the Baker for how much he crumbs his roles)

It's pretty risky, though.

[bvoigt]

Sorry, I was gone over the weekend.

BBmolla

In addition to the points I mentioned earlier, I'm guessing there was scum on the kad wagon. BB's vote seems like the most probable candidate. He seemed to vote kad more for being unhelpful than being a true scumread. He also contradicted himself about his read on kad: first saying "he's a town member that doesn't care," then saying "I'm getting a dumb read," then saying "he's my scummiest read."

Bv + Toast: Any thoughts?

About anything in particular?

@Toasty: Was your "Hmm" referring to the way verydark criticized the kad lynch before the flip?

[bvoigt]

Er...VOTE: BBmolla

[bvoigt]

@bv: If I were to be scum, who do you think my partner would be?

I'd say Toasty. I find him scummy independently, but you'd also make a fair amount of sense as buddies.

And if I were to pop up blue, who would be your immediate suspects?

Toasty and Voidedmafia. This would be mostly process of elimination, since I have town reads on Muffin, SRG, and verydark. All 3 of them have been making logical points and sincerely scumhunting.

[bvoigt]

@bv: Yes, the hmm had a lot to do with verydark's post showing criticism of the kad lynch. It came off as if he knew 100% that kad would flip town, and suggested that the reasons for voting kad were terrible, when, in my opinion, the reasons for voting BB were significantly worse.

Eh, it didn't read like he knew 100%. After all, he did say "I guess we will see if you made the right choice."

ANYWAYS, I re-read verydark and decided to drop my suspicions of him. My 2 biggest suspects are bvoigt and voided. bv, i feel you are faking content/active lurking. Voidedmafia seems overly concerned with what people think of him (what do you think about my hammer?). The whole "I'd vote me" came off as an attempt to distance people with a scum-read on redcolbalt, and suggest to them to drop it as well.

Are you able to give examples of this active lurking?

How can you claim to find your replacee scummy, then claim that you at the time had no idea who you were replacing?

This, on the other hand, is a good point. Voided mentioned he was Red's replacement only a handful of posts after his first one.

[bvoigt]

@bvoigt: I find you to be guilty of a lot of the things I was called out for. For example, you spend a lot of time asking questions without giving your own opinions. Other than the occasional BBmolla discussion or the "TT is scum" comments, I really have no idea what your stance on people is and why. In other words, you seem to just be drifting through the game rather than actively hunting (letting other people do the work for you, never being the primary aggressor).

I think I've given my opinions on just about everyone. BBmolla is my strongest scum read, and I've been trying to get him lynched. After BB come you and Voidedmafia. For much of the game, I've had a scumread on you, and have been mostly null on Voided. However, Voided looks scummier than he did after the point you made here. And I mentioned townreads on the other 3 players here.

[bvoigt]

You really don't think I could've just walked into this game without knowing anything but my role? It was a stupid move on my part, but that's what happened.

I don't see why not.

[bvoigt]

bv says I'm null leaning scum, basically
SRG finds me null.
You find me scummy
I think verydark finds me scummy.
Based on BB's recent post, I'd say he thinks I'm town.

But only SRG has explained any "WHY" that is different from my own reasons.
Mafia is a group effort, and just latching onto someone else's argument isn't great regardless of allignment
bv calling you leaning scum makes you 2 as scum together even more likely. He defended RedColbalt and went on a counter-attack after my case, which effectively drew the attention on colbalt to myself.

1

He later asks redcolbalt to post more (a light jab).

2

After your arrival, he pretty much ignores you unless he agrees with you.

3

Then, after he mentions what you did with the "i'd vote me" thing is scummy, but quickly backs of with your explanation (which leaves a lot unanswered and we have no way of knowing if you are telling the truth).

4

So thats blind acceptance, light defending, and light distancing.

You buddied with me

5

You distanced with yourself AND bv (the latter only has relevance if we get a scum flip)

6

You contradicted yourself about what you did/didn't know at the time of saying "Colbalt is scummy." If you truly became aware, then you would have explained what happened earlier, and not with a one liner that says "well, i'd still vote me if I didn't find out that I replaced redcolbalt." You also lied when you said "where did I say I would vote myself?" when it was pretty obvious what I meant.
We are in a circular argument. Its been a constant "why did you say this" + "I didn't know who I was!" + "You said right here that you did know" + "well, I didn't know at the time!" and on and on and on.

I really don't like the angle that many of these attacks are coming from. You're taking things that could be either town-motivated or scum-motivated and twisting them by only looking at the scum perspective.

1. I simply didn't find your case on Red to be all that great.
2. For one thing, I never called Red scummy because of his lack of content. And asking for content is simply the pro-town thing to do.
3. What of it? Some players just don't have as much to comment on as others-- for example, other than asking him about possible rolefishing, I didn't really question Haze a lot.
4. I haven't "backed off." I still agree with that particular point.
5. Or, to look at it from another perspective, he agreed with your case and mentioned a town read.
6. First of all, Voidedmafia only said he had a null read on me. Secondly, you could call just about any sort of case "distancing."

[bvoigt]

I'm leery of BB's VT claim, because that would mean there are 2 more VT's left, but 2 mafia, and 2 PRs. So out of the 3 people whose roles have been revealed, they are

ALL

VT? I don't like those odds.

BTW, I think this argument would be an example of Appeal to Probability. I don't really find it scummy, just fallacious.

We're entering the phase where everything is being super scrutinized, I have 2 questions for everyone, just to get some opinions.

1)

It seems like we're accepting that NK on Haze was just because he wasn't really on the radar, a random kill, if you will. I've scrutinized his posts and peoples reactions to him, and I seriously have found nothing of use. Is it a waste of time to research his death? What's everyone's thoughts on Haze, and why he was Nk'd.

2)

Since BB beat around the bush a lot as to potentially having a power role early in the game, and then claiming he's a VT at hammer time....why wasn't he the one that was NK'd. No one else slipped up like that. Could it be because he's actually

neither

a PR or VT?

1. Yeah, he wasn't really a high-profile player, but he would have been tough for scum to lynch. They probably killed him for that reason, or maybe because they didn't want the kill to be analyzed.

2. There are some reasonable explanations if he is town. Since he claimed VT, scum might think that getting him lynched is worth the chance of him being a power role. With that being said, I do think the real reason is that he's scum.

What do you guys think of my points in #423?

[bvoigt]

@bv: I can't really prove any of my buddying points/ you as a possible scum-team with redcolbalt until one of you flips scum. However, the fact that you leaped to redcolbalt's defense, yet still seemed mindful of what he was doing at all times strikes me as scummy. Its the sort of things I would expect an IC to do when teaching a newbie how to play as scum.

zMuffinMan also disagreed with your case on Red. Obviously, all 3 of us can't be scum. As for the second part, well, I wasn't convinced by your case, but overall I had a pretty null read.

[bvoigt]

Out of bvoigt and verydark which one would you rather lynch?

I've thought of them both as scummy for a while, but I thought it was just me. The only people I'd feel safe lynching today is either of them, or maybe Voided if someone comes up with a logical argument as to why he seems scummy.

It seems pretty convenient to say this right after Muffin called us scummy. Why haven't you tried to make a case on verydark or myself before you knew other people agreed?

[bvoigt]

Toasty.

btw, bv, never got an answer yesterday. Did you have a town read on kad or was there some other reason you were voting BB over kad?

I had a slight town read on kad, and a definite scum read on BB.

@verydark and bvoigt
Any case I made on you would have easily been arguable with "Well you're just mad cause we're voting you."

No, it wouldn't. That's what's known as OMGUS (Oh My God You Suck). And it's one common scumtell that I do not agree with at all. Sometimes people will yell "OMGUS" when they vote someone, and that same person votes them for legitimate reasons. I believe it's done because the people who are yelling can't actually refute the points against them.

BB, that's a decent case, although I personally don't agree with it. However, I still find it scummy that you held off making this case until you realized other people agreed with you. How long, approximately, have you found verydark and myself scummy?

@SRG: When you say Voided, do you mean verydark?

[bvoigt]

What changed between the time you unvoted BB after I thought I noticed a PR softclaim and the time you voted him again for deadline reasons? You said you didn't think BB was the best lynch today when you unvoted him. Or was there something he did in between that made you change your mind again?

Nothing really changed in BB's play, but like you said, the deadline was near, and BB had more support than Toasty, my second suspect. Since I thought the other main lynch candidate was town, the higher chance of lynching scum outweighed the chance of BB being a power role in my opinion.

[bvoigt]

@BB:

How long, approximately, have you found verydark and myself scummy?

@Voided: Conftown as in confirmed? Huh?

[bvoigt]

If

a cop were to come forth with an inno on BB, who would you think is scum and why?

Toasty and Voided. I think I explained this earlier, but it would be partly PoE...I have town reads on SRG, verydark, and you. I also still find the thing about Voided's replacement odd. And Toasty, in addition to his IIOA early in the game, has been making many attacks from scummy angles.

[bvoigt]

@bv: Still don't understand this scummy angle thing. It has an angle, and that angle is that I have suspected you. In other words, its going to be biased.

My point is that you're not looking at things from the perspective of someone who doesn't know my alignment or Voided's alignment. Instead, you're twisting actions that could come from either alignment into definite scumtells as a way to make the case more convincing. For example, you say that asking Red to post more and agreeing with one of your points on Voided are "light distancing."

Me and voided together?

Perhaps you're not the most likely scumteam, but there's no reason you guys can't be scum together. I also feel that associative tells (tells that link one mafia member to another) are a waste of time without a scumflip.

[bvoigt]

BB, OBVIOUSLY you're gonna get called out on it.

Okay, look, we coddled you (well, not necessarily including me at this point) through D1 until you showed signs of being helpful (remember this being my reason for hammering kad?). Now, you're not helping, and I'm done coddling you.

Vote: BBmolla

. If it takes L-1 or the threat of a hammer (assuming the latter is actually going to be on the table soon) to get you to actually DO SOMETHING, then so be it.

To me, this vote doesn't feel like you actually believe he's scum. Like Muffin said, someone may be annoying and unhelpful, but that does not necessarily make them scummy. (Our Day 1 lynch was a perfect example.)

[bvoigt]

Hmm. On one hand, I feel like that vote is very scum-motivated, and if Voided is scum, BB is probably town. On the other hand, BB's vote for kad on Day 1 was actually very similar to the vote Voided just made.

[bvoigt]

@bv: but voided is not under much pressure. BB was under A LOT of pressure

You're saying that BB and kad were the only likely lynches at that point? Well, if that was truly BB's reason for voting kad, he would have just said it.

You're right. Annoying=/=scum, and

this particular vote isn't because he's scummy

. But he needed to start working 7 days ago, and that didn't happen, and now it's too late.

Unless you have other suggestions, BB's still the most informative lynch, and with the deadline coming up (or rather, already past and I'm not sure if we are even going to get to lynch), I'm not gonna move my vote.

Really? You're planning to lynch someone you don't even find scummy?

[bvoigt]

@bv:

I switched to Kad because I honestly believe he has less to offer the town than I do.

Translated: "I think he's town, but I'd rather lynch someone worthless that get lynched myself."
If he outright said it, someone would've hammered.

He said that

after

five or six posts explaining that kad was "a dumb read" and his top choice for scum.

[bvoigt]

I'd vote a town read if it came down to a choice between him and I.

Yeah, that's the correct play, since (assuming you're town) there is of course a higher chance of a town read being scum than of you being scum.

Or if your problem with BB is that he was inconsistent with his read, I'm not entirely sure about that. Seems to me like he was saying that kad is either scum or "dumb" town, and if kad was town, BB was less of a liability, or something to that effect.

And he also called kad his "scummiest read."

[bvoigt]

Prod dodge. I still want to lynch BB.

[bvoigt]

There are just over 4 days until the deadline. It's time to see who's a viable lynch and who isn't.

[bvoigt]

The thing with bv is, I don't get the feeling that he's actually considering anything other than 'standard' tells. Like, it's hard to describe, but every time he accuses someone of being scum, it's like he's looking at the face of their posts, and not digging any deeper to get a feel for their alignment. Doesn't sit well with me.

Well, I feel like BB, and Toasty and Voided to an extent,

have

had scum motivations on a "deeper" level. He showed that he was focused on survival early in the game. His vote on kad seemed to be more for unhelpfulness than scumminess, and you could say it was also only looking at the surface: kad's lack of content appeared to be his playstyle more than anything else. As for Toasty, he twisted some common actions into scumtells when making his case, which helps him to get a mislynch. And Voided's vote on BB was somewhat similar to BB's vote on kad.

Has anyone heard of the Amished tell btw?

I havent, what is it?

It's basically when someone, replacing in, apologizes for the play of their predecessor. I've seen it used here, but the player in question flipped town.

When is deadline? bv is one of my scum reads, so I'm definitely voting him over BB if those are our only choices. I wish bv was more actively defending, as there are certainly holes in some of the reasons for voting him. In fact, its his lack of a strong presence that is concerning me most atm.

What do you want me to say? I've made my points about BB, and I'm waiting and hoping he gets lynched.

@BV please note that you will probably be claiming relatively soon. If Toasty & Muffin stick to their word.

I will only claim if SRG says that he intends to hammer.

[bvoigt]

Also, I will be

V/LA

from Saturday the 23rd through Sunday the 31st.

[bvoigt]

Quick post, as I just remembered: if we lynch a townie today, Day 3 is Lynch-or-Lose (LyLo). Do not vote right away unless you're sure someone is scum, because the two scum can "quickhammer" for the win.

[bvoigt]

@SRG: Anything you want to ask me about my BB case? I think I've summarized it a couple of times already.

[bvoigt]

He chooses different targets and pushes hard on them until it is evident they won't be lynched.

What do you mean by this, exactly?

[bvoigt]

He chooses different targets and pushes hard on them until it is evident they won't be lynched.

What do you mean by this, exactly?

You find a reason to vote someone and then continue to push on them. It's like a tunneling, but you switch targets randomly.

I don't think I've done that. In fact, IIRC, I've been voting you for the entirety of the day. Where have I switched targets "randomly"?

[bvoigt]

Examples, please.

[bvoigt]

Ok, this is the farthest I've got in a mafia game- so what generally happens on D3?

Since none of the PR have been killed, I think it would be beneficial to find out what cop/doctor/jailkeeper actions have been taken, and how they have affected the outcome of the game thus far.

Maybe an SC or IC can shed some light as to the procedure for today?

Since it's LyLo, the usual procedure is to massclaim. It does no good to keep power roles hidden if we don't lynch correctly, so we want to have as much information out there as we can. You'll see on the wiki page a description of popcorn-style massclaiming, and (from what I've seen) it is the most common and effective method.

And this has been mentioned already, but don't vote until you're sure of your top suspect.

Since I had 3 votes on me yesterday, should I claim first?

My top suspect is probably Voidedmafia. Since 2 of the 3 people who were voting me flipped town, there is guaranteed to be at least one scum on BB's wagon. And Voided fits the bill, both based on my other reads, and the way he voted. I know I'm town, and verydark and SRG don't seem like scum to me. Voided, on the other hand, has been somewhat scummy. Finally, his vote here was the most scum-motivated. (He later unvoted, but then revoted BB without any additional reasons.) It didn't seem like he truly believed BB was scum, just unhelpful:

BB, OBVIOUSLY you're gonna get called out on it.

Okay, look, we coddled you (well, not necessarily including me at this point) through D1 until you showed signs of being helpful (remember this being my reason for hammering kad?). Now, you're not helping, and I'm done coddling you.

Vote: BBmolla

. If it takes L-1 or the threat of a hammer (assuming the latter is actually going to be on the table soon) to get you to actually DO SOMETHING, then so be it.

@Bv + voided - thoughts on Toasty please
@Toasty + very dark - thoughts on Bv please

This is in context of the votes, however if you want to expand it would be appreciated.

I'd say the two town flips on a town wagon would make him more likely to be scum. But there's no guarantee of at least one scum, like the BB wagon. For that reason, I'd probably prefer a Voided lynch.

[bvoigt]

I am just a Townie. I think we should do popcorn style, where the person who claims chooses who goes next. I'd like Voided next, please.

@SRG: My thoughts on bv are the same as my thoughts on him yesterday.

bv and voided are still looking like the scum team to me.
PEDIT: Even with the last post considered
Also, I was only on one wagon where town flipped. WTF u talkin about?

I meant that the wagon on me yesterday had two townies, and you, on it.

Also, I'm in agreement with SRG that we should sort out our thoughts on each player first b4 massclaiming. The main advantage of a massclaim in a setup like this is that we basically get two confirmed town with results.

I'm not saying wait all day but I want to hear from everyone first. At this point having 2conf town is more valuable then having hidden PR's

Well, they wouldn't be confirmed town. We might have an extra VT, and only one power role.

[bvoigt]

Bah!

[bvoigt]

Well, good game, everyone. Here's the scum QT. And I agree...town played very well. We lost mostly by process of elimination...Toasty did an excellent job of remaining hidden, and most of the VTs made it pretty clear that they were town as well.

[bvoigt]

I have to admit BV, that your buddying up to me and the BB wagon DID solidify to me that you were town. It wasn't till you claimed VT, and my jaw literally hit the keyboard.

Isn't it hard to type with your face two inches away from the keys?

Anyways, I caught the scum-team early. WHy wasn't I killed? Hid that well?

To me, at least, it seemed like you were our only chance at getting a third mislynch.

I'm not sure if I'm going to IC another game. It's just not really my "thing." But I do like the Newbie setup, so I'll probably SE my next game. Toasty, on the other hand, would make an excellent IC. However, here are some last comments and words of advice:

Kad- One of the most important parts of playing town is making yourself appear town. It does no good to call the scumteam if you lurk, don't make cases, and get lynched. Make sure you read the thread carefully, and answer all questions that are directed toward you.

Haze, SRG, Muffin- Keep up the good work.

BB- I really feel like you have potential. Just don't give up when you're close to being lynched...it's really not any worse to be lynched in LyLo than it is on Day 2. If you give up, there is no chance of lynching scum. If you fight against your lynch, it still might be you, but it could also be scum.

Toasty- Not to make it sound like sour grapes, but I still think the "links" between me and Voided were mostly confirmation bias.

Voided- I'm sorry, man. I said I would send in the RoleCop for Night 2, and then I somehow completely forgot. Totally my fault...I could have warned you that SRG was actually a VT.

Verydark- Glad you learned your lesson. You're definitely a solid player, but just need to work on tunnelvision.

[bvoigt]

bvoigt

I will go ahead and say it. I was very disappointed with you this game. I don't feel that you for filled your IC responsibilities. On the teaching aspect, I believe that Toasty did more, and did better than you did. You kind of lurked at times. No IC, or even player should do that. If you would like a copy of the review of you that I sent to Vel I will send it to you via PM. On the player side, I still was disappointed. I felt that you let Voided down. You were very obv scum and didn't even try to not be. Your play was weak and not committed. I'm sorry I am saying this, but it is the truth. I think the only reason this game lasted until lylo is because you were hiding behind newbies newbieness and calling it scum. Also, you NKs. Voided may not know better, but you man. Why?

I would like to see the review, if you don't mind.

What more do you feel I needed to teach about? I disagree that I lurked, except at the end of Day 3 when I was V/LA; this will be my 81st post. Verydark had 56.

And saying that I "didn't even try to not be obv scum" is clearly false. I did my best, and the fact that both mislynches were newbies were just because they were the only players who were acting scummy enough to get strung up. I also had "suspicions" of Toasty, so it's not like I was just picking on the new players. As far as the NKs go, Voided and I both agreed on them, and you can see our reasoning in the QT.

Toasty jailkept verydark Night 1, right? Why did I get a "No Result" PM for him? The role PM says that any actions performed on him except Kills will still resolve. Also, I would advise you to wait to send the result PM until just after day starts...you sent it out when it was still Night 1, IIRC. This cut off our discussion time, because I didn't want to post again in the QT and possibly reveal my result unfairly.

[bvoigt]

Voided- I'm sorry, man. I said I would send in the RoleCop for Night 2, and then I somehow completely forgot. Totally my fault...I could have warned you that SRG was actually a VT.

FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-!

AARRRRGH! I COULD'VE USED THAT! Could've pinned the blame on SRG or something, claimed cop, and/or actually not NK and get away with mislynching verydark.

I know, right? So stupid.

Well, I hope at least a couple of you aren't angry at me. If you have any last questions, just let me know.

[bvoigt]

Toasty, who'd you jailkeep Night 1? Shotty says it was me, but I thought you said verydark.

[bvoigt]

So...I should have gotten a result on verydark, right?

Oh well.