Newbie 1116 -- Game Over

[Workdawg]

So ironic. I'm out of town at my cousin's wedding for the weekend, but im here and I will be as much as possible for the next couple days.

For now

VOTE: estcerourt because wat? I don't think I can pronounce that.

[Workdawg]

Lol, right.

Maybe I shouldn't reply to pms when im drunk.

/confirm

[Workdawg]

Hey all. Sorry I've been inactive so far. As I mentioned in my first post, I've been out of town at my cousins wedding. It was a great time, and I'll be on the way home later today. I did a quick read over on my phone, but the format makes it hard to see text and avatars, so I don't really have a good grasp on who has said what so far. I have a 2 hour layover later, so I'll. Try and give it another read then.

I'm in the central timezone in the US. I also have a desk job that allows for some free websurfing time. So I usually post fairly frequently at various times of the day.

[Workdawg]

Ok. I've had the chance to catch up again. I still want to reread it on a computer just to be more thorough, but I think I've got things straight

So far im not seeing anything that really seems scummy, but we still have plenty of time for that.

About cymru's "slip", I don't really think its a big deal. Actually reading what he typed, it doesn't even really make sense at all if he meant to type that. Why would anyone be trying to "prove I'm scum" as he put it? It makes 100% more sense as a simple typo for "prove I'm not scum".

About the issues with people being concerned about looking scummy, I tend to agree that, at least in newbie games, its a very unreliable tell. Most newbies aren't that familiar with the game and don't realize that it looks more scummy to do so.

About the comments about zih being voted up to 3. This is also something I wouldn't be worried about. As al pointed out, it would be EXTREMELY suspicious for two people to jump on his wagon and quick hammer him. Even if it happened, it would most likely be a net gain for the town because of the massive amount of information.

A couple tips for the newbies.
1. The truth will set you free. If you are town, then there is ZERO reason to lie. If you are genuinely trying to scum hunt, your actions will reflect that. We do not need you to tell us you are town, that looks suspicious anyway. Be truthful and call it like you see it.

2. Information is power. The one big thing scum have going for them is information. They know everything and town knows nothing. To that point, if you find something suspicious, speak up. Theory more information we have out there, the more chance we have of finding scum.

[Workdawg]

Sorry about my lack of presence so far, but I've finally had a chance to give the thread a fair read.

I have a few thoughts so far.

Grimm
There's been a lot of talk so far about "trying not to look scum," which I have noticed also. I don't really see him doing this, at least not directly. What I have noticed is that he seems to be trying to explain every significant move he makes. As opposed to trying to be deliberately cautious about what he's doing, he's explaining it all extremely thoroughly.

Another thing is your request for reads from everyone but then barely providing your own. You say you think VE is town, but don't say why. You comment on bigAl is pretty insignificant as well.

VE
Some of his posts just rub me the wrong way. In particular, I'm not really sure what to think about the seeming desire to take a leadership role. "Make sure you don't put hammer someone by accident"... etc.

I'm also interested in why he seems so concerned about what we think of his reads.

I know neither of these are great reads, but there's not much there yet.

On an unrelated note...

I rather prefer RQS to RVS. I know we are past the "random" stage of the game for the most part, but I would still like to ask at least a single question.

What is everyone's experience with mafia? How many games have you played? Here or elsewhere, online, IRL? etc.

[Workdawg]

Grimm said a couple times that VE is consistently missing things ("oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever") but I haven't really noticed that, and he didn't provide examples...

@Grimm

- could you provide some examples of where you are seeing this?

@VE

- I don't think cym should EXPECT people to support his campaign. Everyone should be challenged and he should have to make a good case if he wants us to vote for his target.

[Workdawg]

lol... I agree with Al. I have to say, this kinda reminds me of the bickering I've done in my past games.

When someone starts to rub me the wrong way, via scummy actions or not, I tend to really let loose on them... and that's what I'm seeing here. It seems to me like the two of you have gotten into a fight and it's clouding the situation. I don't necessarily dislike it, as there's a lot more going on now because of it... but I don't really see anything that's screaming scum from either of you, despite it.

[Workdawg]

Curious... I have some thoughts on this, but I have a meeting in a few minutes.

[Workdawg]

@VE

Post 180 you say "I'm comfortable with where my vote is."

Post 184, not 3 hours later, you unvote and follow up with what appears to be a hissy fit about how no one commented about your case. Certainly there is a lack of activity around here, and that's no good, but what changed in those 3 hours? It hadn't even been posted for 24 hours and you've already backed down? It took me a long time to get used to the idea of days lasting WEEKS around here, but you've got understand that not everyone is going to be able to check the site every day; or even every couple days. It's even worse for someone who's super active, like you are.

Between the you and Grimm, you posted 3 pretty big walls. It's a lot to read, as bigAl pointed out. It's taken me a few rereads and I still don't really have my head around all of it.


VOTE: VE

For a handful of posts that come across as "too town" to me. WE NEED MOAR ACTIVITY! DON'T PUT ANYONE AT L-2! etc. It looks like he's just trying to earn some town cred to me.

(In fact, I wonder if post 83 was him trying to make sure his scum-buddy zihark wasn't lynched too early)

And for flopping around on his votes

Vote 1. Pressure vote on zihark because he hasn't posted much.
Vote 2. Big al - for what boils down to: trying to jumpstart the game, posting less often (being late to pointing out suspicious things), and a making a lame WIFOM statement.
Vote 3. Cym - for not sharing his reads.

The first three I'm generally ok with.

Vote 4. Grimm - not 12 hours after his vote for cym, he FoS's Grimm and then posts a case against him. Cym hadn't posted at all in this time, though I would say both bigAl and myself expressed low concern about him during this time. Grimm had only posted one significant post during this time also (162), but all the sudden VE is all over his business.
Vote 5. Unvote - this is what really piqued my interest. As I mentioned above... it's barely been 24 hours and already he's abandoning ship in what's been pretty much the only real case against someone so far. He keeps wanting everyone to post up more, and he's essentially stifling that now by unvoting.

[Workdawg]

@VE

Your post 193 reeks of scum to me. It's certainly possible that you're just fed up with scum hunting after 48 hours and not having getting a positive reaction from the rest of us... but come on now. Throwing a tantrum isn't helping anyone.

As Grimm pointed out, "I'm just going to vote town and hope for the best" is a glorious copout and is EASILY the scummiest thing I've seen so far in this game. It let's you actively lurk (scummy) by saying "I'm done scum hunting" and then if we lynch town, you can try and avoid accountability by saying you were just following the rest of us.

There's also the appeal to emotion you're playing up... but I'm not really convinced that's a scumtell by itself. Combined with the above, I'll call it that in this case though.

FWIW... my initial case on you was extremely weak, but I was looking to put you under a little bit of pressure and see the reaction. You've only made my case against you stronger.

[Workdawg]

@VE

About your reply to my case

"Too Town"

I agree that "too town" is kind of a sketchy descriptor, but I think it's adequate. I certainly don't want to discourage people from speaking their minds, however I feel like a lot of your comments are obvious and overwhelming. Throwing out obvious points in HUGE LETTERS just kinda seemed like you were trying to earn bonus town points. I guess this IS a newbie game, so maybe I should just let that go.

Scum-buddy with zihark

This comment was mostly an afterthought and I find it rather unlikely... but there are certainly reasons for voting him if that is the case.

Firstly, a vote from his own scum-buddy is much more likely to prod him into activity. If he is messing up bad enough that even his scum-buddy is voting him for inactivity, then he should know for sure he's got to get his ass in gear.

It also gives you a history, albeit a minor one, of voting for him that you could try and twist in your favor if he does flip scum later on.

It's a pretty safe move to vote him in this manner so early on when there are few votes on him.

Voting

I'm not really buying this.

In his ONE post I mentioned, he was replying to me and he barely said anything. He only referred to the things he had already said before. Why didn't he get on your radar when he said it the first time?

I'm willing to give you a little leeway on the tantrum stuff because the length of the days takes some getting used to, but not on this. I don't see that as an excuse having for your switch from cym to Grimm.

"Back in the game"

I don't think your response and your "rejoining" the game is redeeming at all. In fact, I think the fact that your "back" so quickly is a bit suspicious as well. Not even an hour after I call you out for your actions being scummy, you pull a complete 180. It seems like your just trying to appease me, since I'm suspicious of you.

@bigAl

How can you see VE's post 194 (the "I quit" post) as town? He's been BY FAR the most gung-ho player in the game so far. He doesn't get the reaction that he wants and he quits... and somehow this is good for town? I don't see ANY town motivation behind it at all.

[Workdawg]

I would also like to hear what specifically is causing cym to suspect Grimm. I don't necessarily disagree with him, but I'm curious about what specific examples he would cite to back up his statement that Grimm is scum.

[Workdawg]

@pokemon

WTF

...
...

@Tomie

I was out of town and rather than asking for a replacement/getting replaced for inactivity, I chose to check in a few times on my phone. I did miss the five or so days of the game, but now that I'm back into my normal schedule, I've been playing. My last game was plagued with replacements, and I know how much it sucks. I didn't want to subject a bunch of other people to that if I could help it. That also extends into post 99 (the one you have issue with). I was sitting in the airport reading and trying to post from my phone. I'm not sure if you've had to do that before, but it's incredibly hard to do both. Getting the text big enough to read easily is hard enough without having to keep track of who is writing each post. I guess if you want to hold that against me, it's up to you.

As for my comment on "there's not much yet"... that was true... but trying to compare my statement of that with Grimm's (who asked for other people's reads) is a bit ridiculous. Asking for everyone else's reads without providing their own is a simple tactic scum can use to identify targets for mislynch. If it turns out 3 other people think player A is scummy, they can just jump on that wagon and try to push it. I didn't ask for anyone else's reads, I only provided mine because I was asked and I felt like sharing my thoughts would benefit the town.

About my cases...
You don't like that I use "too"... okay. I must have forgotten that only scum are allowed to use that word, my bad.

The scumbuddy point... that really wasn't even part of my case, and I already said that. It was an afterthought and the only reason I even elaborated on it is to explain to VE how his interactions with zihark could have been seen as scummy.

My voting analysis... I straight up said the first three were insignificant, and it sounds like you agree with me on the other two... so yeah.

As for why his actions are scum versus town.
If he were town, I don't think he would have come back into the game so quickly in those circumstances. He flipped out and all but said he doesn't care about what happens the rest of the day. This is a much safer move for scum than town. Town only has a 2/9 chance of lynching scum; they are statistically pretty safe. Even if VE was town and got lynched for his actions, it's not a huge hit to town. Statistically it's very likely we will lynch town today. If it's VE or someone else, why should he care if he's all but given up?
On the other side of the coin... if he's scum and this draws enough attention to himself and he gets lynched, he's letting his scum-buddy down; big time.

[Workdawg]

@Tomie

I was out of town and rather than asking for a replacement/getting replaced for inactivity, I chose to check in a few times on my phone. I did miss the five or so days of the game, but now that I'm back into my normal schedule, I've been playing. My last game was plagued with replacements, and I know how much it sucks. I didn't want to subject a bunch of other people to that if I could help it. That also extends into post 99 (the one you have issue with). I was sitting in the airport reading and trying to post from my phone. I'm not sure if you've had to do that before, but it's incredibly hard to do both. Getting the text big enough to read easily is hard enough without having to keep track of who is writing each post. I guess if you want to hold that against me, it's up to you.

As for my comment on "there's not much yet"... that was true... but trying to compare my statement of that with Grimm's (who asked for other people's reads) is a bit ridiculous. Asking for everyone else's reads without providing their own is a simple tactic scum can use to identify targets for mislynch. If it turns out 3 other people think player A is scummy, they can just jump on that wagon and try to push it. I didn't ask for anyone else's reads, I only provided mine because I was asked and I felt like sharing my thoughts would benefit the town.

I've taken both of these as they share one thing in common: You posted no opinions of a player in one and barely in the other.

Maybe I'm confused here... Are you referring to "both of these" as my two paragraphs above? I was addressing your thoughts on me. Why would I be giving opinions about other players if I was just addressing your case against me?

So my question for the first paragraph: If you were to read every post before post 99, which opinions would you have given about the players at post 99?
If I were to look at the post that comes afterwards, I don't have to expect much from that answer as you know I don't like the reasons. With that said, I do compare your response with the one from Grimm. Because you agreed with him that there wasn't much to go on yet. But unlike him, you didn't try to gain information on other players. You discredit him for that attempt. And now you mention that it could have been helpful to town to know your reads, so what would it have done for town if Grimm's question would have lead to multiple players giving their reads?

I did read every post before 99 when I made that post, and since I read every post ON MY PHONE, it was all a jumble of WTF. Try reading the thread without looking at player names and let me know how that works out for you. Cause that's practically what I had to do reading it on my phone. That's why I didn't have any real thoughts on people at that point. I commented on a few specific things I found interesting, but outside of that, I really hadn't had a chance to form opinions on anyone because no one else really stood out enough to look into further. I suppose it's easy to come in here 275 posts after it starts and act all high and mighty because you can jump right in and give reads on people.

Now you seem to be twisting my words. I never said information was bad for town or that people shouldn't give there reads. I said that it is scummy to ask for everyone to give their reads and not give his own. I've already explained why. It allows him to choose a target for a mislynch without committing to a read on anyone else. If he came out and said "I think x, y, and z are scum and here's why... who does everyone else think is scum" that's completely different. If no one else thinks x, y or z are scum, then he'll look suspicious switching off onto someone else. If he doesn't provide his initial reads, he avoids that.

You don't like that I use "too"... okay. I must have forgotten that only scum are allowed to use that word, my bad.

Don't twist my words. I give an example: the 'too scummy to be scum' fallacy. Why is it a fallacy? Because when you use it, you admit that a player is scummy. But because it's 'too much', he must be town. The same can be said in these cases. Both Grimm and Viscera are doing something good. But because it's 'too much', it's seen as coming from scum by you. Easy way to attack a player.

I would propose that "too scum to be scum" is maybe a fallacy, but I don't think it works the other way. Town players aren't trying to look like scum. The only reasonable way you could explain "too scum to be scum" would be unguided newbieness; and that should be pretty apparent. On the other hand, "too town to be town" is completely viable because scum IS trying to appear town. They very well might go too far to appear town and it very well might look suspicious. I suppose semantically it's a "fallacy" because you "are admitting he's town" but that's pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

And you went down. As you know, one of our arguments is about Grimm asking players for their reads but giving barely information himself. You thought it was scummy. Now I asked your opinion about a specific matter I haven't given my opinion on, yet you don't mention anything about it against me. Want to explain?

Your opinion on a specific matter isn't as important as reads on everyone in the game. At the very worst, you are scum and you are hoping I say something on this specific topic that you can use later. It's completely different from reads on all the players.

But the answer excludes one point. How come it's not Viscera-town, who understands why it's stupid to give up like that and is willing to try it again?

It could be, but that's not really the impression that I got from it.

[Workdawg]

Geebus H a lot has happened.

Blue is still looking suspicious to me, because after all that he still doesn't seem to have any real thoughts on anything. He's posted up an extremely vague list of "prime suspects" but it consists of everyone who didn't post during that chatfest. I guess that means if you post a lot, you aren't scum?

The same goes for cymru. He seems to be a little bit more insightful, but still hasn't posted anything truly helpful.

Grimm and VE still seems like town on town to me. They're getting along better, so that's good I guess. FWIW, my initial vote on VE was a pressure vote, and when he flipped his shit, it didn't help AT ALL. Am I convinced he's scum, no. Do I still think there is a chance he is, sure. I don't like my vote sitting idle on no one though, so it stays where it is for now.

Welcome cobbler

[Workdawg]

@cobbler (and VE)

- There's no point in unvoting and leaving my vote on no-one. Mine is the only vote on VE, leaving my vote there is not putting him in any immediate danger of being lynched.

@cobbler

Addressing any potential power-roles is suspicious. Preempting your comment with a "you can ignore this if you want" does nothing to mitigate that. Mostly for the reason that bigAl suggested, but also because town shouldn't want to know if they exist or not. If town knows, then scum would also know and would NK them for sure.

The "not wanting the IC to be lynched unless we are sure" comment sounds a bit like you are trying to divert his suspicions. Convenient that the person who was suspicious of your motives is the IC you are saying you wouldn't want to lynch.

@blue

- I'm not sure what you are talking about with your mention of lurkers, but I'll address the other part. Town's job is to find scum. Scum's job is to hide. Town absolutely needs to pressure people in this game. Pressure makes people make mistakes, and that's how you catch scum. Your reason for voting for me seems completely off-base.

@VE

- A no-lynch is NOT an option IMO. A no-lynch would most likely end up with town getting stuck at 8-players (scum would NK one of us). As you pointed out previously (sort of erroneously actually, and I forgot to mention that, post #283), an even number of players is bad for town because we still need a majority vote, but we lose a town voice. Town would need EVERYONE but one town player to get on the same wagon (or scum would have to be on the wagon)... it just puts town in a bad spot. The part that I mentioned where you were in error is because you were referring to lynching a townie. Again, if we lynched someone, scum would get a NK and we would most likely end up at 7 players left. Not only is that a better number, but we get the additional information of another flip. Certainly lynching town is not ideal, but I would say that in 99% of cases it's better than a no-lynch on D1.

VOTE: cymru

You don't post very much (lurking), you STILL haven't shared any opinions on people that can't be summed up with OMGUS (JJ) or "lurking" (really they weren't lurking, just inactive... and that's why they got replaced). You seem to be actively avoiding taking a stance against anyone but JJ.

@Blue

- You seem pretty suspicious too, but you seem way more newbie than scummy so far. You've got over 20 posts per day, but very few of them contain any significant information. You REALLY need to make sure you are reading carefully and don't be afraid to share your thoughts on people.

[Workdawg]

I'm not using my thread anymore, and I know you said that. But like I said, adding a disclaimer to your statements means nothing.

I didn't post up real "RQS" because by the time I really got into the game, we were beyond that.

[Workdawg]

wat... EBWOP: I'm not using my PHONE anymore...

[Workdawg]

I don't recall ever defending cymru. I remember saying that I didn't think his "slip" was anything substantial, but I don't recall commenting on anything else. Got a quote that you are thinking of?

[Workdawg]

Son of a bitch. This overnight chatfest is annoying. Could you guys try and avoid posting stuff that has NO use to the game? I'm not opposed to you guys playing "mini speed mafia" in here, but at least keep it on topic and try to make the content worthwhile.

"anyone here", "i'm bored", etc. It's just cluttering the thread and making it take much longer to read. There are 6 pages worth of posts since last night and really only enough content for about 3.

Now that I spent an hour catching up, I have to go skim all those pages and look for the specific posts that actually contained content so I can refer back to them.

I digress...

Things that I can actually remember from all that crap.

About my posting habits (I guess)

VE mentioned that "my most substantial posts" have been defending myself against Tomie. Certainly my longer posts have been in reply to him, but I find it A LOT easier to defend myself than to find scum. I know my intentions, and that makes it a lot easier to speak exactly to people's accusations against me. FWIW, that's only two posts.

While Tomie might not have said that he thinks I'm scum, he certainly has implied it pretty heavily by taking the extra time to analyze my posts (and set them apart from most others) and by saying "

don't look good."

Needless to say, I'm not going to sit around and let someone accuse me (straight up or not).

bigAl

First, his suggestion of lynching someone other than cym/blue; I'm REALLY torn on this.

On one hand, it's pretty damn good advice. Pretty much the only things I can remember others saying about them (myself included) is that they are both very obviously newbies and both not playing very well. If they do flip town, we won't learn very much.

On the other hand, if one of them is scum, bigAl could be trying to defend his partner in either of them.

That said, I don't get a very scummy vibe from bigAl. He's wearing the IC hat well. He's rather self-detrimental, which I'm not really sure what to make of. It doesn't seem scummy on the surface, but calling himself out on various things gives a hint of "oops, I hope no one notices that". I have to say that in both my two previous newbie games, everyone was very reluctant to vote the IC because they didn't want to lose that "advantage" a veteran player brings. But in both games, the IC was NK'd first night too.

As a semi-related side note... people who are throwing out "town points"... I'm not sure I like that so much. You are essentially giving scum feedback about what kinds of things YOU consider to be town. If I were scum, I would make note of what people are doing to earn "town points" and try to mimic those things.

Blue

He continues to rub me the wrong way, and I'm not sure if it's because he's so new or what. He bends to the will of whoever he chats with over night. I loaded up his ISO and it's 111 POSTS? W T F.

He votes VE, then unvotes when bigAl points out his reason for the vote is terrible. (go with the flow)
He reads the thread (after being pressured to by Grimm) then votes for VE AGAIN. This time because VE voted for zihark. (OMGUS)
Unvotes AGAIN after Grimm and bigAl tell him his reason for voting is bad.
Let's restart... -_-
Votes for Grimm, a vote I don't actually hate. He has a reason at least. Not sure on if it's really accurate or not, but hey.
Unvotes because they all had a nice SEVENTY FIVE post campfire chat and apparently that convinced him Grimm isn't scum.
FOS cym because cym agrees with him, and his theory is garbage... wat?
Votes for me (workdawg) because I was pressuring people.
Unvotes me.
Votes himself...
Unvotes himself after people tell him how terrible that is.
Decides he will sheep VE and votes no-lynch.
unvotes when people tell him sheeping VE looks scummy.
Votes Cym for lurking and not helping town.

And that's JUST votes. Of all of that, two of them are things I could maybe see as being reasonable.

Other things I noticed. He says that he has never played before, but then later he refers to playing on some yugioh site. This is his first game on this site, but it makes me wonder how much he's played on whatever yugioh site he was talking about. Is he acting the newbie role to try and slide under the radar?

Others

Grimm, VE, Cobbler and even Tomie I don't have strong reads on.

Grimm I would say I feel is the most town right now.
Tomie I would give a slight town read as well. He's provided good discussion points, despite them being mainly directed at me.
Cobbler and VE are middle of the road. They've both done things that I can see either way.

[Workdawg]

Do you have any explanation for why you have switched your vote around so much, and why you seem to be doing it when someone gives you negative feedback about it?

[Workdawg]

beacuse I dont want to do something that screws over town and dont like pepole mad at me

also im expermenting with diffrent startegys so far I find a all out noob claim is the funest.

also ik no im pretty spamy but im always like that i dont have compostion skill to sit and write copel paragraphs it bores me

What? (above bolded section)

You are trying out different strategies and claiming "all out newb" is one of them? So you are lying to us?

Also, do you think you could try spell checking your posts before you post them? Most browsers run check as you go, the little red underlines show what is misspelled. When I quoted your above, like 1/3 of the words are misspelled. It's really hard to read.

VOTE: blue

Lying (see above), contributing almost no content, and not taking a stance on ANYTHING (changing votes and opinions whenever anyone gives him negative feedback)

Welcome Fonz!

[Workdawg]

I am going to make an Official Request.

PLEASE try your best to contain your thoughts as a player to as few posts as possible. Posting six times

in a row

in the space of eleven minutes is not cool.

HOORAY !

[Workdawg]

@bigAl

I didn't say I think Grimm is town... I said that he has the most town read for me, so far. There's a distinction there. Of the 4 people I don't really have great reads on yet (from my previous post), I have gotten the most town vibe from him.

Grimm started off pretty abrasive, but that's gone aside more recently. He seems to be pretty analytical of everything and I haven't really noticed him doing anything that's really scummy (other than that one post where he wanted everyone to give their reads). He's had a reason for every vote he's made IIRC.

If your main issue with him is hit recent rally against you, then I think you might have a touch of OMGUS. I do agree that he's stretching a little bit on his points, but if the intent is to just put a little pressure on, then I don't really see the harm in that. If he were really pushing hard for your lynch, then it'd be more of an issue for me.

@Fonz

lol... another replacement who comes in and thinks I'm scum because of post 99. Really? Read my response to Tomie about that.

My thoughts on "too town" from back then were because of a handful of specific comments, not his overall gameplay. He did some other things that were suspicious at the time, and considering that, his "too town" comments just look like he was trying to earn town points.

[Workdawg]

I have posted my reads...

I've said what I think about cym a few times, and others recent reads are here (582).

[Workdawg]

You know what I meant. But I just thought of something that's actually kind of obvious at this point. I'm not going to say what it is.

I don't know what you mean. Can you elaborate on that without revealing your recent revelation?

[Workdawg]

Oh FFS, thread padding, really? If I had known I was just going to get shit for trying to save the game from a replacement right out of the gate, I wouldn't have bothered. Like I've said many times before. I was hardly even reading the first few days, I posted up just to make sure I didn't get replaced.

As for being scum because I voted for someone you feel is town, that's a terrible reason. Also, NONE of my votes have been for "playstyle" issues. I've cited viable reasons for all of them. You replaced into the SE slot and that's what you've got against me?

The Fonz

He comes in with a lot of reads on people.
His first in-depth read is Grimm, who he calls out on two specific things. He gives reasonable arguments for why Grimm is suspicious.
Yonzy (Tomie) is really pinging his scumdar, but he doesn't know why.
Then he gets to me and I'm just straight up scummy because of post 99, again. I post too much IIOA and am "non-committal".
The IIOA thing I've addressed many times, so yeah...
I guess he claims this after only reading to page 17, so maybe he missed the parts where I posted a case against VE and argued back and forth a couple times. I know that SCREAMS non-committal... wait... no, that's pretty much the opposite.

In his latest post, he sticks to his guns that I'm scum, but for the reasons above this time... which I think I've already established are "bullshit"... to quote Grimm.

Work has been picking up recently, so I don't know how much I'll be able to post during the day today and tomorrow, but I should be able to check in at night at least.

[Workdawg]

Workdawg concerns me because in addition to the thread padding, he's voted you- who I think is pretty obvtown - plus the two 'playstyle' wagons. That doesn't overly suggest to me a player who's really making an effort to identify town and scum.

Agreed.

Wait, you agree with this? That I'm "padding" the thread, or about my votes? Examples please.

[Workdawg]

But his reasons for saying that were because I'm "padding" (which you disagree with) and my votes (which he is wrong about).

Do you have a different reason for thinking that, or ... ?

[Workdawg]

Also, I guess the reason I'm not going too crazy on the scum hunting is because I tend to tunnel on people pretty hard, and I have also been accused of being a "loose cannon." See Newbie 1052 (my first game) for reference on that. I was completely wrong on everyone I thought was scum, but I got so focused on my one target at a time that I was able to convince others they were guilty as well. I ended up in LYLO with two SEs and I chose wrong for a town loss pretty much because I was there with someone who I had always had suspicions of. I ignored obvious signs of scumminess by the other player. I'm trying to avoid that this game.

[Workdawg]

Newb question here: Can anyone explain what this "padding" issue is about? What is padding? Checked the wiki but didn't come across anything.

I can't say for sure I guess, but my interpretation based on how Fonz was using it to accuse me, was that he's saying I'm posting a bunch of irrelevant information to try and look like I'm helping. I've heard it called "posting fluff" or even "active lurking" I suppose. I'm "padding" my posts with irrelevant stuff to make it look like I'm posting more information than I really am.

[Workdawg]

@cobbler

My meta or Fonz's meta? I cited my meta as a reason for my less aggressive scumhunting, Fonz didn't even mention his.

But I have some questions now.

You agree with things Fonz has said against me (609 AND 630).
Fonz says you might be my scum partner without any reasoning (630).
You agree with Fonz that I'm not trying to scumhunt very much (632, clarification from 630)
I say things to further arouse your suspicions. (my 634, your 643)

And then you vote for Fonz? What is your reasoning for this? Based on the above outlined information, I would think you'd most certainly be voting for me instead of him.

The only reason I can think of is that you are OMGUSing him because he said you might be scumbuddies with me (someone you both agreed might be scum).

/boggle

[Workdawg]

Okay, so if we strike out that one part...

@cobbler

You agree with things Fonz has said against me (609 AND 630).
Fonz says you might be my scum partner without any reasoning (630).

You agree with Fonz that I'm not trying to scumhunt very much (632, clarification from 630)

I say things to further arouse your suspicions. (my 634, your 643)

You still agree with Fonz and think I'm suspicious.

I looked back to make sure I'm not missing something... but I don't see ANY mention of you thinking Fonz is suspicious other than the aforementioned scumbuddy accusations that he didn't provide reasons for.

[Workdawg]

I agree with Grimm... this whole discussion has me confused as hell.

[Workdawg]

my reason beacuse im bored

/facepalm

Then maybe you could try reading the thread and forming an opinion, since you haven't done that yet... reading the thread should take up many hours of your time by itself. Forming an opinion could takes DAYS at the rate you are going though.

[Workdawg]

At this point, it really doesn't look like we'll come to a consensus otherwise.

Blue has made a few suspicious moves, but he definitely seems more newb than scum to me (not ruling out newb scum, of course). I would be on-board with a his lynch IF it avoids a no-lynch. Otherwise I'd prefer to keep up the discussion as long as possible to see if we can't find someone better.

That said, I think it's pretty suspicious that you, of all people, are suggesting this with 6 days to the deadline.

[Workdawg]

That last exchange between Cobbler and I has still has me a bit confused. I went back and reread it, and I just don't know.

One thing I did notice though is this.

(snip)

I think his partner is probably CF or Tomie, although BigAl is creeping up in my suspicions lately.

This bugs me. Particularly the part about bigAl. Not sure why. It's kind of off.

I'll read your meta while you're away.

Just to get a feel for your style.

Oh wow, CF is me. I've never seen my screenname abreviated like that. lol.

I'll explain why when I get back from the 36 hrs V/LA which begins as of now.

Woops missed this.

UNVOTE: The Fonz

So, in 630 he acknowledged reading that Fonz would be v/la, but in 648, he says he didn't realize Fonz was going to explain himself after he got back from v/la?

@Cobbler

Did you accidentally not read the part about him explaining himself the first time around or what?

Overall, that exchange just gives me the impression that Cobbler OMGUS'd Fonz and then started back pedalling when I called him out on it. Not to mention the fact that he seems to be flailing around a bit on his read on me. Take a look at these quotes in chronological order...

@Fonz: I'm glad we agree on Workdawg. (snip)

Workdawg concerns me because in addition to the thread padding, he's voted you- who I think is pretty obvtown - plus the two 'playstyle' wagons. That doesn't overly suggest to me a player who's really making an effort to identify town and scum.

Agreed.
(snip)

(snip)

Wait, you agree with this? That I'm "padding" the thread, or about my votes? Examples please.

Sorry, I agree that you don't seem to be making much of an effort to identify town or scum. (I disagree about the padding.)

(which he does acknowledge isn't always a scum tell, in 645)

Workdawg's #634 doesn't sound good to me. Since we're running lower on time I guess I'll vote now and if his meta change's my mind I'll unvote:

VOTE: The Fonz

I call him out... then all of the sudden...

(snip)

He replaced Miss JJ remember? I agree you were suspicious. But now I'm less sure, I agree with him that you are doing what he says you are doing, not that you are scum. Though you might be and I might vote for you tomorrow. It depends.

I'll explain why when I get back from the 36 hrs V/LA which begins as of now.

Woops missed this.

unvote The Fonz

[Workdawg]

ZOMG, Tomie's post is a wall of text like no other. I'm having trouble following it all due to the rambling. Cobbler put it perfectly. It seems like he just took a bunch of speed and started a brain dump onto the thread and didn't bother to proof read any of it.

It also doesn't help that he's like 20 pages behind...

For my actual thoughts on this... is this 90% IIOA? I appreciate you pretty much proving that you read the thread, but what are your THOUGHTS about these actions? You only mention a handful of actual questions/suspicions in all of that. It's like a review of what's happened and that's it.

I actually copied his post into MS Word so that I can go through and format it better and stuff. I ended up bolding the sections that actually expressed thoughts aside from "scummy" and yeah... I found 8 sentences out of all of that.

Viscera:
-My point against Workdawg about him not scumhunting applies for a big part to Viscera as well. You can see it in her first posts already. She questions Grimmjow’s RV, which she later admits that she can feel he thinks his reason was valid, though she sees it as defending Workdawg.

The first part means that she can see why he’s questioning Yonzy, so the conclusion she’s making doesn’t add up.

Later comes Cymru mentioning he doesn’t want to appear scummy. We only get a question, which doesn’t mean anything and when looking at the opinion she gives later on, this question was strange. EDIT: The same could be said about Cymru’s ‘flip’. Wow, Big EDIT. After mentioning she can see why NewbTown-Cymru would worry about suspicions, she still wants to hear why he worried about it. Very scummy.

Edit question: What would you have thought of Cymru had he kept playing the noob-card to defend himself?

Next up, she mentioned that she believes active-lurking is one of the scummiest things. Instead of calling those players out, she ‘warns’ them. There was also her vote on Zihark, which comes closest to scumhunting,

but got minus points there when she directs other players towards Cymru by asking other players their opinion on him.

I could continue this point, but then it would become too long.
-Then comes her post full with opinions on some players.

I don’t see the points against BigAl and Grimmjow.

But that’s not the important bit. That comes later on as BigAl responded to her case. She never mentions it and I’m wondering why.

This points gets even worse as she mentions that most points still stand against him after BigAl posted his explanations.

-One of her accusations she made was against Miss JJ, who only responded to the part aimed at her. In post 148, Viscera does exactly the same to Grimmjow. To make things worse, it’s at that time that she refers to the less active players.

I can see this as an attempt to get attentiuon elsewhere, a point Cymru also has against him.

And as an extra, she later does have something to say about Grimmjow’s analysis in the post in which she votes him.
Talking about the case against Grimmjow, Grimmjow explained a lot in his response to you. Even with questions. Yet, you ignored it completely by mentioning he doesn’t state why your case is bad. Which is exactly what he did.
-

I think it was already clear that I didn’t like her ‘no lynch’ vote.

-

And yes, I also didn’t like Viscera’s quick turn-around.

First we have the vote against Grimmjow, which will be the wagon she’ll be pushing towards the end. She unvotes out of rage that nobody had responded (which isn’t quite strange due to the inactiveness which was present at that time) and then decides to stop scumhunting for the day. Eventually, she also stops with that. One thing needs to be added as mentioned before, she also fully ignored Grimmjow’s defense as she doesn’t respond to any of his points. And last,

my thoughts about this gets further reinforced as she has mentioned somewhere after I replaced in that Workdawg had valid reasons to vote her.

I need to find it sometimish :/

(This is up to the part where she went for the no-lynch. Perhaps now you guys understand why it's taking so long >.<)

Even with all that, there's almost no real analysis of anything.

[Workdawg]

+1 to what Grimm said.

[Workdawg]

I really don't see the analysis part. Maybe others do...

[Workdawg]

I just checked this and saw blue put himself at L-1...

UNVOTE: blue

I'll catch up later though.

[Workdawg]

You're exaggerating the difficulty of reading on a phone. I've done it before, and it's certainly harder than on a normal computer, but it's not 'impossible to see who posted what.' That 'a couple tips for the newbies' paragraph screamed 'helpful advice' to me- as I said with Cobbler, 'helpful advice' I often see as a way of generating the illusion of usefulness for scum. I see you actually agree with that, since your clarification on VE appears to be that you were accusing him of 'trying to look town.'

The difficulty is compounded by the fact that it was the beginning of the game and being unfamiliar with peoples styles and avatars. My "helpful tips" was helpful advice, but there's a difference between giving a few tips and making numerous statements IN ALL CAPS ZOMG. Not to mention the fact that my tips were general gameplay advice not specific to our game. I think that's an important distinction as well.

And it's not that post alone. The following three or four seem fluffy to me. Taking fencesitty positions on issues, without talking about who's scum, and asking an RQS question (and RQS is generally somewhat scummy) outside of the early part of the game (indicates desire to keep the fluffing going). Your posts up to 185 do not include a solid 'this is my top suspect' or vote. It all looks VERY active lurky. When I post from my phone, it tends to be short, to the point, and talks about who my top suspect is. IE, I'm more worried about taking positions and exerting pressure than 'being seen to contribute.' You seem to me to be doing the opposite.

I disagree that the "three or four" after #99 look like fluff. I provided my basic thoughts and posed a handful of questions to people. Just because you choose to be direct and short when you post from your phone doesn't mean that it's scummy not to. Post #99 was actually the last post from my phone anyway.

In addition, I've read your previous scum game, and that looks pretty similar. Empty posts for a while, then a jump on a town wagon (and no, I am not insiniuating that I have inside knowledge of anyone's alignment here, so you can forget that line of argument).

Your response to Tomie about high horses etc felt uncalled for. He voted you for IIoA posting, which is legitimately scummy. If you're town, and it's not impossible, then learn that things aren't bad scumhunting just because

you

think you have an excuse. Likewise your 'I would expect better from an SE slot.' LOL. Your problem with my vote isn't that it's poorly reasoned, or newbish. It's that it's on you.

I told you both why my contributions were lacking at the beginning of the game and I'm sick of trying to defend myself over that. If you don't want to believe it, then fine. Your points against me can be summarized as follows (up until now):

1. IIOA from post 99 (607)
2. Non-commital (607)
--- You claim to have only read up to page 17 by this point...
3. Thread padding (628)
4. Voting for someone YOU THINK is town (628)
5. Two "playstyle wagons" (628).

1. ... yeah
2. I made a case against a person and voted for them. I don't think that's non-commital.
3. Simply not the case, and everyone else I've seen comment on this agrees with me.
4. lolplz
5. My votes against cym and blue were both intended to try and pressure them into posting, but obviously that didn't really work on either one of them. I suppose my vote against cym is based on his playstyle. However my vote on blue was based almost entirely on his slip in which he pretty much says he's only claiming to be a newb.

So yeah... my problem with your vote against me IS that it's poorly reasoned.

That said:

Now you seem to be twisting my words. I never said information was bad for town or that people shouldn't give there reads. I said that it is scummy to ask for everyone to give their reads and not give his own.

This is a decent point. One might even call it scummy. However your points on VE were votehopping (not a scumtell) and 'flipping his shit' which I thought looked PARTICULARLY town. Then you jump the playstyle wagon on cymru. And then, with deadline pending:

Blue has made a few suspicious moves, but he definitely seems more newb than scum to me (not ruling out newb scum, of course). I would be on-board with a his lynch IF it avoids a no-lynch. Otherwise I'd prefer to keep up the discussion as long as possible to see if we can't find someone better.

Distance from the wagon, unnecessary 'looking town' - saying you don't want a no lynch' and wanting to 'see if

we

can do something better, without making any really significant effort to rally people to a new wagon.

My vote against VE was not for votehopping, it was because he seemed to be votehopping based on the reaction he was getting from everyone else (trying to please the masses, rather than sticking to his case)... non-committal, as you called it. We disagree on his freakout, and I don't think disagreeing with you on that is scummy.

As for my thoughts on blue... I stand by that. Would you prefer a no-lynch? I'd vote for pretty much anyone who's even mildly suspicious to avoid a no-lynch scenario on D1. As for not making a case against any else, I intend to do that today/tonight. I was busy at work last friday... and then also busy most of the weekend. I just haven't had a chance to go back through the thread.

[Workdawg]

I'm in the process of doing ISOs and typing up my thoughts, but let me pose this questions quick.

Which would be more scummy, to ignore the cases people bring against me, or to defend myself against them? Should I just ignore the huge walls that are brought against me and scumhunt instead? I would find that a lot more suspicious looking on from the outside. When no one is making a case against me, I scum hunt, but lately there have been quite a few cases against me that take up my time.

[Workdawg]

So what would you call all the posts that AREN'T defending myself? Just because the posts that are in my own defense are the biggest ones does not mean the others are worthless.

[Workdawg]

Part One, of many, hopefully.

Cobbler

- Says he's suspicious of bigAl because of IC status.
- Doesn't like the "this could be WIFOM" stuff that bigAl says, but then uses the exact same thing in post 427.
- The power roles discussion, because "ignore this if you want" is a justification for saying something scummy.
- Seems to really like buddying up to bigAl despite being "extra suspicious" of him due to IC status and previously mentioned things. Multiple posts looking for affirmation or recognition from bigAl.
- He stretches two votes, two FOS and one "I would lynch him" into intent to lynch when he accuses me of being opportunistic in my vote against cym. (One of those FOS was from blue... so that's hardly even worth counting.) I skimmed the thread looking for a "would lynch" list, but I didn't find that either. Maybe he was referring to his own "Less sure of now" reads, but he's got half the players in there.
- His vote for The Fonz is suspicious as outlined earlier... he agrees with the Fonz numerous times, then votes for him. Then unvotes when I call him out on it.
- When Grimm made a case against Cobbler, Cobbler's response was extremely sarcastic. I can understand getting defensive over things, but Cobbler doesn't actually give a reasonable defense, just a bunch of caps lock.
- Seemingly opportunistic vote against blue. Blue put himself at L-1 and forcing me to unvote him, then Cobbler comes in with a vote afterwards. Cobbler has barely expressed any feeling of scumminess towards blue up to this point. Blue continues his scummy behavior and this causes Cobbler to unvote...
- The Fonz comes back with a case against me and Cobbler jumps all over it. Interestingly, the reason Cobbler unvoted Fonz (he was going to explain the scum team speculation) was not satisfied when The Fonz posted up his case, but Cobbler seems to have forgotten about that.

I picked cobbler for my first ISO/analysis because he's made a few questionable moves recently. I have to say that I didn't notice anything that makes me think ZOMG scum, but a good player wouldn't. He has made quite a few questionable decisions/posts though. His initial suspicion of bigAl is perfectly acceptable (even if his initial reasoning was sketchy). But he continues to post suspicions of bigAl, and at the same time he seems to be looking for bigAl's approval. If you think he is scum, why would you care what he thinks? It makes me wonder a little bit if there is a scumteam there. But speculating about scumteams is futile until we have a flip to go off of.

The power roles discussion. The general consensus around here is that practically ALL discussion of power roles is scummy, and I agree with this. The town's ONLY secret in this game is the power roles; scum hold every other card. There is NO reason to discuss power roles in the thread unless it's done by the player holding the role and it's absolutely necessary to save the town. Preempting his comments with an "ignore this if you want" only seems to try and make it look innocent IMO. I find it interesting that his suggestions had to do with bigAl and they were the main people in that discussion.

"The The Fonz Situation" this has been covered before and it's still pretty suspicious to me. His excuse for the whole thing is missing a line of text that he himself had quoted, and that his read on me is "VERY swingy". Smells VERY fishy to me. The first part is that The Fonz mentioned a couple potential scum teams and said he would elaborate on them. Apparently Cobbler missed the "I'll elaborate later" part and voted Fonz because of the (at the time) unjustified scum teams. Interestingly, when The Fonz returns, he puts up another case against me, but leaves out the scum teams again. Cobbler doesn't care and literally just jumps on the wagon with nothing more than a "You are right The Fonz!"

@Cobbler

In your post 760, you vote for me and then say "I just hope my realization was wrong."... implying that you hope I flip town. Why would you ever hope the person you are voting for flips town?


I will reserve my vote until I have a chance to review other ISOs, but right now Cobbler is my top choice.

[Workdawg]

In RE post 769 by VE. Why are you answering the question for him? You wanted a response from him, and then you tell him what to say? That doesn't do any good.

[Workdawg]

@Cobbler In your post 760, you vote for me and then say "I just hope my realization was wrong."... implying that you hope I flip town. Why would you ever hope the person you are voting for flips town?

No, my realization was that you seemed to have been giving power role tells. Thus I hope I'm wrong about you being a power role. But to tell the truth, I think that if you

were

a power role, you would've gotten that hint by now. Seriously. (This is also why I described my read on you as "swingy")

So, if I am a power role, you're going to be sad, but if I'm just a vanilla townie, that's ok?

- The Fonz comes back with a case against me and Cobbler jumps all over it. Interestingly, the reason Cobbler unvoted Fonz (he was going to explain the scum team speculation) was not satisfied when The Fonz posted up his case, but Cobbler seems to have forgotten about that.

I can vaguely remember to what you are refering. Would you mind posting the quotes or even just the post numbers or something?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p3154463

[Workdawg]

bigAl

His ISO was almost mind-numbingly boring TBH. Up until post 707 there was almost nothing going on. He used his IC hat a handful of times, he gave his thoughts on various topics, etc. Nothing scummy that I could see that hasn't already been pointed out. The "I don't know how QTs work" is interesting I guess, but his claim to have not played here in a long time seems legit, and maybe he really didn't know. His self deprecating comments are also mildly interesting, but I haven't noticed anything scummy at all really.

Post 707 he gives his reads and really starts to "come out of his shell" so to speak. There's some decent analysis in there and he covers pretty much everyone. He still seems like he hasn't really taken a firm stance on anyone yet. I guess that's the only thing that's really suspicious to me. We've got almost 800 posts (granted many are worthless fluff), but I would expect someone who seems to be so knowledgeable to take a more firm stance.

I think he's town.

cymru

His ISO is pretty quick, so I'll just toss this on the end here.

He has a few interesting bits, but a lot of it is just lacking in content, as we all know. His vote for Zihark actually seemed like a good vote. Zihark OMGUSd VE and cym called him on it. Granted VE had already called him on it, but hey.
His post 223 actually makes some sense as well (Grimm is scum and had to resort to jabs instead of logic to defend himself). I don't know that this is necessarily the case, but it's a good thought anyway. It's too bad he had become fixated on JJ so much at this point. I have to wonder what would have become of it if he had switched to Grimm. It's too bad he reneged on it only 2 hours later.

It seems to me like cymru has flickers of "helpful thoughts", but they are too scattered amongst amidst a lot of non-helpful posts. They seem to be coming more frequently as the deadline draws near, which is mildly suspicious, but not enough to make me think he's scum.

All that said, I'm really not sure what to think about him at this point, but I do think there are better targets for today.

[Workdawg]

I've read a few more ISOs and no one else is looking nearly as suspicious to me.

VOTE: Cobblerfone

[Workdawg]

After thinking it through again, I've decided I'm just tired with this day and decided out of the three I've been hounding Workdawg seems to be the only viable lynch.

VOTE: Workdawg

I hope you take your socks off before you put your flipflops on.

[Workdawg]

Neither of my first two newbie games made it to 30 pages TOTAL... this is pretty ridiculous.

Anyway...

@Cobbler

You think TWO people are going to hop on my wagon and hammer me down with a week left to the extended deadline? I have to say, you're vote/unvote/vote/unvote is pretty suspicious to me (and would even be if it weren't ON me).

You seem extremely reluctant to vote for me and I wonder if it's because you know I'm town and you don't want to look like the scum who hopped on the wagon to lynch the townie. (scum like to be in the middle of the wagon, typically)

I'm the only other wagon right now, so if you're scum then you seem to be between a rock and a hard place. Vote for me and be caught lynching a townie, or find another wagon (which would require you to lead off against someone else)... or not vote at all, I suppose.

[Workdawg]

I have to say, I actually get a little bit of a town vibe from Cobbler's post above (818). I think if I were scum I'd try more likely try to rally votes against the opposing wagon than point out potentially scummy things someone else did.

On the other hand, he seems to be throwing in the towel pretty early, which gives me more of a scummy vibe.

I don't think it outweighs the evidence brought against him though, so my vote will stand.

[Workdawg]

Damn it Zach! I was pretty suspicious of VE, but everyone else thought it was "ultra town" the way he flipped out. Why must you make me reconsider him!

[Workdawg]

lol... I haven't changed my vote yet, but I'm certainly going to go back and take another look. Cobbler's recent play has me pretty convinced he's scum though.

bigAl, Tomie, and The Fonz at least I recall specifically saying they felt the flipout was a town tell. I actually don't remember anyone BUT me saying it seemed scummy, but if you did, then my bad.

[Workdawg]

bigAl, Tomie, and The Fonz at least I recall specifically saying they felt the flipout was a town tell. I actually don't remember anyone BUT me saying it seemed scummy, but if you did, then my bad.

Ahum?

-And yes, I also didn’t like Viscera’s quick turn-around.

My bad... must be someone else I was thinking of. In any case, I'm about half way through VE's ISO and I'll share my thoughts when I'm through.

[Workdawg]

@Tomie

- Maybe it's the formatting of that post, but not really. it's INCREDIBLY hard to read. Even with you outlining your points above I'm having a tough time figuring out what you were talking about in that previous post. The post above though is much easier to read.

VE

I just finished reading VE's ISO and while I agree with pretty much all the points Zach made, I didn't really see anything else in his ISO that jumped out at me. I noticed one suspicious thing, but it's completely circumstantial and not worth revealing quite yet. It'll hold a lot more weight once we've seen a flip. That said, IF I end up close to being lynched, I'll make sure to share it.

Overall, VE is on my radar as slightly scummy, but Cobbler is still at the top.

[Workdawg]

4 days is plenty of time considering we have a few targets identified. If we still had no wagons going, then I'd be worried.

Also, I'll be on vacation over the weekend. I will have my laptop with me, so I'll most likely check in at least once a day, but I may not get the chance. I WILL be back before the deadline though.

[Workdawg]

What is YOUR opinion between Cobbler and I? There's been plenty of debate both ways.

[Workdawg]

No content?

I have to say that I think you're just sheeping other peoples previous reads on me. Original thoughts or examples to support your argument please. And if you bring up post 99, I'm gunna pull a VE on you guys. (<3 VE)

[Workdawg]

@VE

I have to say, I disagree with your analysis of Zach. I think if he were opportunistic scum, he would have just hopped on one of the current bandwagons and gone with the flow. With the deadline very close, it would be extremely easy for him to slip through D1 without arising any suspicion. The fact that he chose a separate player entirely rings town to me. Your reaction smells a lot like scum though. The Fonz's suggestion that your trying to end the day more quickly by switching wagons seems dead-on to me.

I think I'd actually be okay with lynching VE today if the cobbler wagon manages to implode somehow. Cobblers recently play seems more town, but the evidence against him from before still outweighs it for me.

@cym

The hammering vote is always going to be thoroughly scrutinized, but if it's genuine, then there shouldn't be a problem. If someone comes from out of no where and hammers with a lot of time left, or without having voice any suspicion of their own, then that usually looks bad.

Someone has to hammer though and as long as their intentions are town motivated, that should be fairly clear.

[Workdawg]

Well, that's interesting.

I agree with The Fonz that it's pretty suspicious that neither he nor bigAl got NKd last night. Unfortunately I don't really get a scum read on either of them.

When I read the hammer vote I was really surprised as well. Zach seems to come out of nowhere and lays it down with a whole day (?) left. Suspicious indeed.

@cym

- This game isn't 'everyone against cym'. Why do you stretch everything that happens in to some kind of attack against you? Tomie's last post was about how you OR I would have been a better lynch than Cobbler. Considering that I was the other wagon, don't you think trying to frame me would make more sense?

That said, there's really very little point in discussing why anyone get's NKd because there is no way to know the scum's motivation, it's all WIFOM. They could have lynched someone who was on to them, they could be trying to frame someone else, or they could have thrown a dart at a list of players and chosen one at random to throw us off.

[Workdawg]

@VE

- If you are referring your "sniping power roles" comment to reason for NKing someone... then obviously that would also make sense... though N1 it would be a total shot in the dark unless someone was dumb enough to reveal their power role. I had no idea of Tomie's role, other than leaning a bit town on him.

@The Fonz

- I have to say, I did find VE's switch from cobbler pretty suspicious too, but for other reasons. Cobbler and I were 2-2 until bigAl and cym joined the wagons, and I think everyone would put a lot more weight on bigAl's vote than cyms. No one really knows what cym is doing, but we know that bigAl has reasons for voting (town or otherwise).

If you go back and look at what actually happened, not just the vote counts, you might see things a little bit differently. Check out post 814. At this point, it's 2 votes for me, 3 votes for Cobbler (right after bigAl votes) Prior to this post, VE hadn't really voiced much, if any, suspicion towards Cobbler. Then, after bigAl joins Cobbler's wagon, VE all the sudden says he's "willing to put Cobbler at L-1 if everyone else is willing." Appealing to Majority to try to deflect blame when he gets on the wagon late (scummy move) so that he can say "we all agreed!" instead of just "I thought he was scummy." Of course, he got berated for that already, but the point stands.

@Zach

- You hammered with a day left to discuss and your reason can be summed up by saying that you were tired of waiting for the day to end. It doesn't matter who was on the wagon. Your hammer doesn't seem to have any town motivation at all.

[Workdawg]

First of all, I'm not scum, and that much should be painfully obvious...I've been trying to help town from the very beginning.

cymru, you have provided NO credible evidence that I'm even suspicious other than the fact that I voted for Cobbler. And you'll note that I was far more suspicious of Workdawg anyway. Perhaps bring something real to the table instead of baseless speculation and maybe you'll get some support.

VOTE: Workdawg

Because he was one of Tomie's main suspects, along with me (whose alignment I'm sure of already) and cymru96, whom I have no suspicion of...he's pretty obviously just noobTown. Also he was among the first to push a Cobbler wagon to begin with.

First, you claim town and passively call us idiots for not believing you.

Then your reason for voting for me is that Tomie was suspicious of me and that I was on cobbler's wagon? Come on now. Just because Tomie flipped town doesn't mean he actually had the correct reads. As for the cobbler wagon, you're vote to put him at L-1 was MUCH more suspicious.

[Workdawg]

Sorry about my lack of content today so far, I've been pretty busy lately.

Anyway... I just reread the end of D1 and the start of D2 and here are some of my thoughts.

Cymru

Cymru seems pretty suspicious to me. We all know that for A LONG time he provided almost no original content. That's easy to chalk up to being a newbie. I think some of his actions closer to the end of the day seem more scum motivated though.

For the first half (or so) of the game, he managed to avoid taking ANY stances on anyone besides MissJJ/The Fonz... and even then, his stance on JJ was GIANT OMGUS and pretty ridiculous. After that, he brings almost NO original thoughts to the table. When he does comment on someone's scumminess, it's either agreeing with something someone else said, or repeating the thoughts of someone else (pretty much the same thing, but hey).

He ends up flipping back and forth a little bit near the end, sort of. As I said, he never really takes a stance. He comments that cobbler and I were the top two wagons, and speculates that were are both probably not scum, but then he asks which of us is the scum (takes no stance). When I prod him about this, he says he thinks it's me because of "long posts with no content", something that someone brought up long ago and was decidedly not the case anymore. Then he votes for me.

The very next day, once VE has abandoned my wagon for cobbler's, cym starts talking about hammering cobbler. In fact, he posts FIVE times about hammering, but keeps making excuses why he won't. I should say that there was still 2 days left at this point, so I don't think a hammer at that point would have been a good idea, but it sounds to me like he's trying to get on the wagon, without getting on the wagon. Continuing the streak of not really taking a stance. He wants to seem like he agrees with everyone else, but doesn't want to actually be associated with the lynch.

On D2, he immediately jumps out with "workdawg or VE" for lynch today, again with NO reasoning behind it. He votes VE for no given reason (and he's never mentioned suspicion of VE before). After getting prodded into action by The Fonz, cym digs up a couple scraps. He quotes post 890 and makes some weak comment about a comment VE made about "knowing alignment". He makes no sense. The next thing he mentions is the fact that VE switched wagons at the end, something that TheFonz already pointed out was a big deal.

I just don't know about him. All the prodding we've done to try and get him to make a contributing and it still seems to go to waste.

I have a few more thoughts, but work is catching up with me for now.

[Workdawg]

@The Fonz

- You didn't vote for bigAl yesterday because his suspicions aligned with yours? Back in post 628, you said I "concerned" you because I voted for VE, who you felt was obvtown. I'm a bit concerned that your voting seems to be based on who agrees (or doesn't agree) with you.

Also, the below quote rubs me the wrong way.

The thing that kept me from voting Al yesterday was that, although he didn't seem to be doing anything that was particularly difficult for scum to fake, his suspicions did basically align with mine. Well, of those suspicions,

he chose to wagon the town one over the one of unknown alignment

, and today he seems to have dropped workdawg suspicion pretty much entirely for reasons I can't entirely fathom, and quietly returned to pushing the horrendously newbish Cymru along with Grimmjow.

It seems a bit, devious (for lack of a better term, I guess) to imply that bigAl knew his choice of wagons would be on "the town one." At the time, no one (except scum, of course) knew the alignment of either. Subtly implying that bigAl is scum, are we?

At the end of the above quote, you also attack bigAl for "dropping" his suspicion of me. I have to say, I find your vote suspicious for the same reason. At the end of the day, you had cobbler and I at "a virtual tie", and yet now you are going after bigAl? Tomie was suspicious of me, and he got NKed. I would think that would have focused a bit more attention on me, but I'm sliding out for bigAl to take my place?

I think I'm going to have to take a closer look at your ISO. I got mostly town reads from you before, but there seems to be some deviousness coming out now...

[Workdawg]

Scum generally aren't suspicious of their partners, so if you agree with someone else's suspicions, that can mean that they are more likely to be the same alignment as you.

Or they are just copying you to hide their scum intentions... I would call it a null tell in most cases...

But my point was that for both the people he has voted thus far, he's mentioned it as a reason, which I find suspicious.

I haven't had a chance to give him a thorough read through yet, but he will be next for sure.

[Workdawg]

You seem to have a couple broken quotes above which makes it kinda hard to follow, but I think I've got it enough.

Firstly... I was just saying exactly what you said about voting for BigAl. You didn't say anything about thinking either VE or I was scummier than him.

The thing that kept me from voting Al yesterday was that, although he didn't seem to be doing anything that was particularly difficult for scum to fake, his suspicions did basically align with mine.

Go back and read the bolded part there from my previous post (which you quoted). You said HE CHOSE TO WAGON THE TOWN ONE. If he's scum, then he did knowingly choose a town wagon. If he's not scum though, he chose an unknown wagon. I don't know if bigAl is scum or not (though I admit I'm leaning town), but I'm not defending him either. I'm attacking your comments as they are very clearly intended to make bigAl look scummy by skewing the situation, and that IS scummy. If you had said "he ended up on a town wagon", then I would have no problem; but you didn't. You chose to word it in a way that is inaccurate and makes him look incredibly scummy. The way you worded it, it sounds like we have 5 scum in here, because we all CHOSE to lynch town.

[Workdawg]

No, you're being dishonest.

I said 'He chose to wagon the town one over the one of unknown alignment.' That is true, it is the situation as we can see it. In neither case (town or scum) was it a choice at the time between a known town player and a player of unknown alignment. If he's town, it's a choice between two players of unknown alignment, and if he's scum, two players of known. Therefore, I could not possibly have been implying anything about what he knew then, because stating that he was deciding at the time between a player he knew was town and a player he didn't know the alignment of does not make any sense.

The thing that kept me from voting Al yesterday was that, although he didn't seem to be doing anything that was particularly difficult for scum to fake, his suspicions did basically align with mine.

Well, of those suspicions, he

chose

to wagon the town one over the one of unknown alignment,

and today he seems to have dropped workdawg suspicion pretty much entirely for reasons I can't entirely fathom, and quietly returned to pushing the horrendously newbish Cymru along with Grimmjow.

chose
- 8 dictionary results
chose
1    [chohz]
–verb
1.
simple past tense of choose.

That's exactly what you said. Chose indicates past tense, which would mean at the time of the vote based on context of the quote.


Also, FWIW, I agree with cymru. Insulting him personally, and his country, is crossing a line. It has NO benefit to the game.

[Workdawg]

You can try and justify it however you want. You made a statement that I FEEL was meant to make bigAl look more scummy. I already said that if you had worded it differently it would not have been a big deal, but the way you worded it seems suspicious to me.

[Workdawg]

This is true only if BigAl is town, right? Cobbler 'was an unknown alignment' only to town players. I'm not imputing scum motivation to Cymru, I'm pointing out that he might have let slip that he has scum

knowledge.

Of course, this only applies if Al is not scum, and I think he is, but it's worth noting nontheless.

But this applies to the 4 other people on cobbler's wagon as well. I suppose not me though, since I wouldn't vote myself... so 3 others.

Workdawg further cements the BigAl-Workdawg link that was the point of the sentence which started this furore by responding to an attack on BigAl by attacking BigAl's attacker, but not directly defending BigAl. Note that this is scummy of Workdawg regardless of Al's alignment: if Al is his buddy, he's protecting him, if Al is town, then Workdawg is using my attack on Al as an excuse to attack me, but leaving the door open to lynch Al later. Contrast VisceraEyes' response: he said he thought Al was town.

Also, the attack itself is a misrepresentation, for reasons I've explained repeatedly. It's one thing to misread something: it's another to keep pressing the point after it's been explained that the way he has 'interpreted' the statement doesn't make any logical sense, so can't have been what I actually meant. I'm not saying you're scum, Grimmjow, but the fact remains that for the sake of accuracy, if I am calling the attack scummy, and I am, I should note that you have also done the scummy action. There's almost certainly one scum in (Workdawg, Cymru, you). I don't think both scum are in that group, and I think Workdawg is scummier than either of the other two.

You said something scummy and I called you out on it. We can go back and forth all day with you breaking it down word by word and stuff, but you won't convince me that the specific wording wasn't intended to make him look scummy. I noticed in your more recent post that you actually changed the wording this time to "... the player he chose to wagon was town."

Shining the light on bigAl, we've learned that he 'Doesn't necessarily' think my point is bad, but he's also neglected to call anyone else's part in this scummy. So this big argument is raging in thread, and there's no indication that Al has gleaned anything about anyone's alignment from it. This goes back to the basis of my Al suspicion: he's not scumhunting. But because he's not pissed anyone off, people think he's town. Look at Cymru's attitude toward me and Al: he seems pretty favourably disposed to Al, who's voted for him on multiple occasions, and hostile to me, despite the fact that I've actively defended him, because I think he's dumb town. Al doesn't want to make enemies.

I do agree with this though. It is curious that through all this he hasn't really commented on anyone at all.

[Workdawg]

I'm not going to get into this argument again, this is the end.

THE PLAYER HE CHOSE TO WAGON WAS TOWN - He chose a player, who was town.

HE CHOSE TO WAGON A TOWN PLAYER - He chose a town player.

I don't give a shit if you want to break it down and give me a grammer/logic lesson. I really don't. I'm not an idiot. I understand your logic. But the way they read is completely different.

[Workdawg]

EBWOP:

The first implies that he chose a player of unknown alignment.

The second implies he knew the alignment of the player.

[Workdawg]

I don't give a shit if you want to break it down and give me a grammar/logic lesson. I really don't. I'm not an idiot. I understand your logic. But the way they read is completely different.

Your argument that the statement doesn't make sense the way I interpret it doesn't matter anyway. Is it not possible for someone to lie or to make an illogical statement for their own benefit?

"BigAl chose to vote for a town player." sure as hell sounds like I'm accusing him of knowing exactly what he was doing.

"BigAl chose to vote for a player who was town" doesn't sound the same at all. He chose a player, who ended up being town.

[Workdawg]

I don't think, however, that placing a pressure vote is very effective when another player asks if the vote is there with the intention to lynch... If you say "no, I"m not really intending to lynch this guy" then there's really no pressure, is there?

This x100. I swear I already mentioned this at some point, but maybe I didn't. If you admit that the vote is just for pressure before you vote (or while the vote is still there), then you are taking all the pressure off.

Asking people if their vote is for pressure or for intent to lynch is a stupid for the above reason IMO.

--------

Other thoughts:

I agree that bigAl hasn't done anything useful today, but he isn't really the only one. The bickering between The Fonz and I has distracted the town a little bit and there hasn't been much of anything going on besides that unfortunately. I tried to just drop it, but I couldn't. I also agree with The Fonz that it's suspicious that bigAl didn't bother to actually defend himself or call anyone else out... but I got a town read from him D1 and I don't think this is enough to sway me completely... especially not if he's been busy (I have too).

As for who I DO find to be scummy, there aren't any obvious targets to me... at least not from any of the new information today.

The Fonz has piqued my suspicions a bit today for the previously mentioned things, but he also seemed town yesterday and therefore is not a suspect yet.

cymru seems to be continuing his pattern today. Few posts with little content. I'm still not sure how to feel about him. I guess his content has gotten slightly better, but he' still flying under the radar IMO. Still no stance, etc. His asking about putting bigAl at L-1 rubs me the wrong way again, I dunno. He did the same thing with hammering cobbler. Continuing his trend of not committing to anything and being worried about how he looks. Newbie tells as much as scum tells.

Zach gives me the strongest town read out of everyone. He was V/LA for a long time, but he's back now and seems to be bringing his A game. He hammered a day early, but that's the only thing I have against him.

Grimm, I don't really have much to say about. He joined in the bickering a little bit, but mostly neutral today.

VE...
With The Fonz focusing on bigAl today, it seems like VE has slipped from people's minds. At the end of D1, cobbler and VE were pretty damn close to me. Cobbler was actually posting more town and VE more scummy.

Go back to D1 and read Zach's thoughts on VE.
He also jumped wagons from me to Cobbler very shortly after (Zach suggested this was to try and lynch early to avoid suspicion building on himself).
Today he votes for me and then switches to cymru after cym makes a cym style post. I suppose this is continuing the trend of not really taking a stance on anyone.

VOTE: VE

[Workdawg]

Like I said, other than Zach's hammer, I find him to be very much town. (also, he is from MN and clearly there are no scum in MN)

As for my vote on VE. He was tied with cobbler at the end of the day yesterday and has done nothing to dissuade me today.

The Fonz seemed very town yesterday and other than the couple of things I've already mentioned still seems that way. They've made me more wary of him indeed, but not enough to overcome my suspicions of VE.

I would have likely voted VE much sooner if I hadn't been so distracted by the previous argument with The Fonz.

[Workdawg]

Cym has put bigAl at L-1... just so everyone knows.

[Workdawg]

The obvious first question is, why is it only bigAl or cym? But with 7 days left and people already pretty significantly divided, I will indulge you.

bigAl

I got a lot of town vibe from bigAl yesterday. He was asking good questions and really the only thing that concerned me yesterday was his self-deprecating comments. It seems like an easy ploy for an IC to call himself out on scummy comments... "I should point out the scummyness here, cause I'm the IC." Cover up sneaky actions with the guise of teaching the newbies.

Today, I absolutely agree that he hasn't really done anything. He's poked his head in here and there... but he's avoided making any significant contributions until he was called out on it. Once he was, he posted an extremely weak (IMO) case against grimm. I should say that I'm also finding it hard to figure out who is the best lynch today, but I don't think it's Grimm.

cymru

All he's really done is continue with what he did yesterday. He seems to be attempting to contribute more, but there still isn't any real analysis in his posts. I just don't know how I feel about that. I could see an argument for active lurking, but he's been doing it consistently and hasn't slipped up yet if he is scum. I don't feel like there's enough reason there to lynch him because he hasn't made any really scummy posts that I recall. He's made a couple of "misstatements" that could be read to indicate he's scum, but I think they can mostly be explained by simply bad wording/typos.

---

So, I guess I'd be voting for bigAl if it came down to it.

[Workdawg]

Having just reread my post, I realize I sort of accused both of them of active lurking. So why bigAl over cym then? Because cym has done it the whole time and he's new. bigAl contributed yesterday and is the IC. He should know better and we KNOW he can do better.

[Workdawg]

Having gone back through today, I still feel that VE is a better wagon than either bigAl or cym. Since my short/basic case against him didn't really get much response, here are overall thoughts.

#1.

The flip out. This has divided thoughts, either extreme town or extreme scum. I'm of the mind that this was a scum play. He gets mad that people aren't listening to him and he gives up. I admit that this initial reaction seems more town then scum, but his immediate and complete 180 when he is called out on it SCREAMS scummy to me. It reeks of trying to earn the approval of the town after he realized he messed up bad.

#2.

He doesn't really take a firm stance against anyone. Aside from the case against Grimm early on in D1, he hasn't really stuck to a stance after facing adversity about it. He backs down to easily. This also indicates to me that he's just after the approval of the town.

#3.

The wagon switch. Up until post 804, VE had no voiced any significant suspicion of cobbler. Then in 804, "[he's] starting to get a queesy [sic] feeling about cobbler." He states he's willing to put cobbler at L-1 if everyone else is willing. (More trying to please the town). So he goes from really nothing to I'll put him at L-1 if we want? This is 5 days to the deadline, FYI. My thoughts on this are that he's trying to distance himself from the wagon, but get in on it at the same time. He'll vote if we want him to... giving him leeway to deflect blame when cobbler flips town.

Zach also speculated, and I agree, that he was doing this to try and avoid a wagon on himself. When Zach posted his thoughts and vote against VE. Grimm and I both posted that we were suspicious of VE as well. This seems to almost prompt VE to change his vote to cobbler.

On D2, when he votes back to me (post 923), he says himself that "... [he] was far more suspicious of Workdawg anyway"... if he was far more suspicious of me, then why did he switch votes with 5 days left? There was plenty of time for the wagons to shift my way if he had stuck to it, but he didn't. More evidence to indicate that his switch to cobbler was not genuine.

#4.

VE's reaction to Zach's case. Post 854. VE write's a decently long post, and most if it as attacking Zach rather than defending himself. Instead of telling Zach why he's not scum, he analyzes Zach's post and tries to make it seem like a scum move to even accuse him, deflecting.

#5.

Vote for Cymru. What's this all about? Two strikes for cyms questionable play? He elaborates more on his vote in post 967 at Zach's request, but it's still pretty weak. Just smells like he's trying to pick on the newbie. Note that he's second on the wagon too, breaking up the 4 way tie at 1 vote that he was complaining about before.

An interesting note... asking for a claim with a whole week left?


--------

So there you have it.

[Workdawg]

2) What exactly constitutes a firm stance? A big long post that everyone complains about having to read? I'm actually altering my play based on Zach's assessment of 'cases', which I agree with. I'd never thought of it that way before and I'm trying something new. I'll gladly write up a case against cymru if that's what you want, but it seems like everybody already KNOWS why I'm voting for cymru, so it seems like a waste of time to me.

Sticking with your case after someone pokes holes in it. Interesting that you voted for Zach and then flipped over to me already.

3) I like how your reasoning is so that I can deflect blame if Cobbler flips town, but when Cobbler flips town, I took just as much responsibility for it as everyone else. So I guess that rules that out, huh? I noticed Zach was SHOCKED to find that I was 'decrying' that wagon, when in fact I had posted that I'm just as responsible as everyone else.

That was just a random thought, what I would have done if I were scum I suppose. But there was much more to point 3 than that.

4) Zach's points were ridiculous, they were just external musings of the newly replaced-in player rehashing events that, while controversial at the time, were no longer at bar. AND he voted based on them, in spite of us having a very real possibility of scum between the two candidates ALREADY ON THE TABLE. It's very anti-town to come in with a new candidate in the eleventh hour, regardless of how scummy you think he is. It adds to the risk of a No Lynch, which as far as I can tell on these forums is ABSOLUTELY TABOO. You're right, there were 5 days left. If he didn't agree that I shouldn't be a lynch candidate, he should've actually tried to convince people. But what did he do? He hammered Cobbler. Yes, I was attacking Zach. Zach's posts regarding me were mostly accurate, but A) weren't taking all the facts into account and B) were horribly timed given the circumstances. If he were just going to hammer Cobbler anyway, why not just wait until d2 to raise his points on me?

How gloriously ironic... you just did exactly the same thing. Less than a week to the lynch, two established wagons, and you vote for someone with no votes. (I did too, obviously, but I didn't think it was scummy). Is it still scummy now that you did it?

Zach's posts against me seemed very WELL timed if he were trying to save someone on the present lynch docket. The only people being considered when he replaced in were Cobbler and Wordawg. Cobbler flipped town.

First of all, when he voted for you, it was 3 for cobbler and 2 votes for me. If he wanted to save me, don't you think he would have just jumped on cobbler's wagon and put him at L-1 and left me in the rear view?

[Workdawg]

Hmm, I disagree with bigAl's case against Grimm. His points are pretty weak and it really feels like he's stretching for something.

Zach brings up an excellent point as well, and I think bigAl would know this... which makes me suspect him a little bit more.

[Workdawg]

REALLY?

This... I don't normally FOS... but

FOS: VE

[Workdawg]

WTF just happened here? VE claims jailkeeper and claims that he jailed The Fonz preventing an NK because The Fonz was mafia's choice for who was going to perform the NK? Too bad that IF that's the case and you are the jailkeeper, The Fonz could also be innocent and you just protected him from being the target of the NK (as The Fonz points out). Then there's also the scenario where you are scum and you tried to NK anyone and the jailkeeper protected them. But we are jumping into WIFOM territory here.

The only thing we KNOW to be true is that someone is the jailkeeper.

@Nobody Special: Can you confirm that the jailkeeper can even prevent an NK if they target a scum player who is performing the kill? This format is new and I just want to make sure that's even legit.

That said...

@VE

, why would you E V E R hammer someone whom you felt was innocent with more than 10 seconds left until the deadline? You hammered with like 3 days left and you said you didn't think he was scum. I demand a reason for this.
Also, why would you role claim at this point?


------
PEdit:

WOAH now... The Fonz get's on the train that this happened, attempting to confirm VE's role as jailkeeper? I smell scumteam all up in here.

Shit just got real.

[Workdawg]

And since only us three have posted, who knows... You going to explain why you hammered so early, ve?

[Workdawg]

And just think, had you reread during the 3 days left before the end of the day, you might have noticed this and not hammered a townie into the ground.

Please explain to me how ending the day early is pro-town. Then explain how it's pro-town when you are hammering someone you don't think it's scum. You answers are woefully insufficient. And The Fonz's adamant defense in your name is only making him look just as guilty in my eyes. It's mighty curious that you vote him right out the gate and he sits here defending you anyway. I don't think he's dumb enough to blatantly buddy up to his scum partner, but wtf.

[Workdawg]

There is no reason to take time away from town, and that's what you've done. All we have is the time allotted to expose as much information as possible. The game had not stagnated, it was the weekend.

[Workdawg]

Yeah... it's lynch or lose, unless the NK is prevented.

only this time we need to get all 4 town on board with the lynch, obviously scum won't lynch their partner... this is about as bad as it gets.

[Workdawg]

IF the kill is not compulsory, I can absolutely see what Grimm is talking about... I was thinking it, but I had already dabbled in WIFOM enough.

It especially makes sense seeing as 6 players is just as bad for town as 5 is, if not worse. We still need to get all the town players to agree on a lynch or we lose. It's a little better because we have an extra person to throw ideas around with, but that can also be bad as it's another opinion on who is guilty.

It's an extremely devious plot... which we have no way to prove. There is no excuse for the things VE has done, and if our glorious mod confirms the mafia can choose not to kill anyone, I'm onboard with lynching him. I won't vote right away, because IF VE is town (and that's a GIANT if) scum could hope on and lynch him for the win.

If the NK is compulsory, then I don't know wtf is going on. VE seems so scummy to me, but it seems rather likely he really is the jailkeeper since no one has come forward with a counter-claim.

[Workdawg]

Yeah... it's lynch or lose, unless the NK is prevented.

only this time we need to get all 4 town on board with the lynch, obviously scum won't lynch their partner... this is about as bad as it gets.

Lynch or lose...does that mean if we no-lynch we lose? Because if my calculations are correct, we could technically no-lynch and ACTUALLY be in lylo tomorrow. Is this an honest mistake or an attempt to confuse town? There are 6 of us now, if we no-lynch that would leave 5 tomorrow....correct me if I'm wrong.

I would be okay with a no-lynch in this scenario, actually. Even numbers are bad for town, and a no-lynch would be the safest play if we don't weed out the scum. A no-lynch gives them an NK, but at the worst we end up 3v2 tomorrow. If we lynch and miss, we have a much higher chance of losing because then the NK MUST be blocked.

If we no-lynch do we not get a night phase to still have a chance of blocking the NK? How would the scum get an NK if town can't use their roles? The Fonz seems to be implying we don't in 1101.

[Workdawg]

Happy birthday to VE!

As his present, I will now go V/LA until Saturday, Aug 6. I'll probably check in once in a while, but no guarantees.

[Workdawg]

1. Is an interesting point.

At this point, i'm fairly suspicious of a ve / the fonz team, but that's simply because the potential gambit greatly intrigues me. I think that's fairly unlikely, but I think if anyone could pull it off, it would be them. I'm far more suspicious of the fonz though.

As for my status, im currently up north with family, I would be happy to post a picture of the lake if you want to accuse me of trying to hide during an important time.

[Workdawg]

Well, the main thing is that you and the fonz are already involved, and I can see you two make it work. The fonz is obviously a very smart player, and you've established a track record for doing wildly scummy things and avoiding suspicion for them.

[Workdawg]

Well, I'm back... but I have a lot of work to catch up on first. Thankfully, not much has happened while I was gone. Cymru's vote was dumb, but I don't think it was really that big of a deal. I'll have to review his voting patterns I guess, but even if cym is scum, he'd already have hopped on the wagon to early. He'd need an extra town vote to get a lynch.

I'll do my best to get some more thoughts out here in a couple days. I'm actually going V/LA again at the end of this week, FL this time.

[Workdawg]

What makes you think it's more likely that The Fonz was blocked from completing the nightkill instead of just protected from it?

[Workdawg]

Ugh... this stupid gambit is still stuck in my head. It makes a ton of sense, but at the same time, we'd be in LYLO if there was an NK last night, not MYLO... so yeah. Considering that, I have to admit that VE seems all but confirmed to me. I have trouble believing that based on his play... but whatever.

That said, I don't really know who scum is. Cymru continues his pattern of mildly WTFage. I just reread his ISO and two things occurred to me, he's been calling me Wordawg this whole time. (missing the K)... which explains his nickname of "Word" I suppose. Second, I'm not sure I agree with Zach that his last vote is inconsistent with his other votes (aside from the MissJJ stuff). He has always tended to use his vote to get some kind of action out of the game. Usually its to get a response from someone he is voting for, but hey.

The Fonz bumps to my top suspect I guess (after VE is forced out), but he's AWOL. As cym pointed out, it's certainly possible the riots are causing this, and if so... good luck to him.

[Workdawg]

I feel stupid now.

lol... np

[Workdawg]

..
I think it's most likely workdawg/grimmjow, but there's also the possibility of Cymru as a buddy since WD pretty much held the balance of power on Al vs Cymru, and swung it toward Al, despite the fact that he'd voted Cym day one, and attacked me for attacking BigAl.
...

Uhh, what? I've maintained a fairly solid town read on Al the whole game. When asked if I HAD to choose between them, I said I would choose big al, only because his play had become less consistant... but I also said that I wasn't sure who scum was. I made a case right after that for lynching VE instead. Don't you think if Cym and I were scumbuddies, I would have hopped on bigAl's wagon with vigor?

Interesting that it's YOU who asked me who I would pick between the two, and now you are calling me out on having some sort of power because of it.

[Workdawg]

+1 Zach... I was just going to say that.

As for who I think is scum, I said that in my post yesterday... The Fonz is my top pick. He was already at two votes though, so I was not about to put him at L-1 at this point. Cym is making a questionable vote again.

I took a closer look at cym's voting. I just sort of skimmed it before when I commented on it, but looking closer at context I've noticed something. In 1014, cym posts a list of people that are probably scum, (Wordawg, Grimm, Fonz or [cym]), then makes a case against me, and jumps on BigAl's wagon... wat? Oh... he was putting bigAl at L-1 when their wagon's were even.

I also noticed that at the time of both lynches, cym and The Fonz were on the same wagon, (my wagon D1, BigAl D2)... this is also true of VE and Zach, but I think they are town... and probably smart enough to avoid a tell like sheeping each other if they were scumbuddies. In both cases for cym/The Fonz, The Fonz led the way and cym jumped on later. (not the case for VE/Zach... though interestingly, they've both hammered, and both times it was a little bit early).

Now on D3, cym has made two questionable votes. At first glance, his vote on Zach seems like the usual pressure vote. But he doesn't even seem to care that it didn't really prompt Zach into anything. Zach came back, but cym doesn't even seem to care.

Then cym votes for me (L-1!) with pretty much no reason given. Note that he's followed closely after The Fonz, again.

@Cym

Why am I your top suspect? You said Grimm or The Fonz are your picks for #2, but provide no reason why I am above them, or why you are eliminating Zach from your choices.

So I guess I'm suggesting now that we're looking at The Fonz/cym as a scum team. I'll have to go back and review the thread to look for more interactions between them.

[Workdawg]

Right. You chose the one who 'You'd had a solid town read on all game' over the one you had attacked quite a bit.

Up until that point, yes... cymru's play had been consistantly newbish/whatever. Bigal's D2 play was subpar, by far. Please show me where I attacked cym "quite a bit." I recall voting for him once, and posting a rather lengthy commentary about his play, but not attacking him as you imply.

This is relevant why? Anyone can SAY they don't know who the scum is.

It implies that I didn't really think either of them were scum...

WIFOM argument "I wouldn't have done that if I were scum." It makes perfect sense for you as scum to distance from the wagon before

putting it over the top.

Plus, you know, I think VE's almost certainly town.

Dishonesty and mudslinging. I asked you precisely because you DID have the power. You were in a position where Al was at L-1, and Cym was at L-2 with Al not voting for him. Al would presumably have preferred to lynch Cymru than himself, so if you'd said you preferred a Cymru lynch, then Cymru would be dead.

Which I didn't do, so you're argument is irrelevant. After I voted for VE, the cym wagon fell apart anyway. Grimm unvoted and VE flopped around and ended up hammering BigAl. You can say "I had the power" all you want, but just because the town is divided, does that mean I have to vote for someone I'm not convinced is scum? If Al wanted to lynch cym, he would have voted for him. Maybe that would have been enough to keep cym's wagon together, maybe not... the world will never know.

You asked me who I would prefer to lynch, and I answered the question in that context... but I did not vote either of them. If answering your question somehow gave me magical powers to sway everyone else, then I guess I should have just said I would have preferred a VE lynch, and you guys wouldn't have lynched a townie... oh wait. I did say I preferred to lynch VE... but that was outside the context of your question.

[Workdawg]

VOTE: The Fonz

[Workdawg]

I'm going to be officially V/LA again until Aug 18... but I will definitely be checking in once in a while during that time... Florida this time.

[Workdawg]

UNVOTE: the fonz

[Workdawg]

At the airport right now, but I had to get that out.

Im glad you've seen the light ve, but its WAY to early for anyone to be at l-1. cym just did it and got yelled at, why would you do this? I'm starting to really suspect you, but the decent chance of you being jk just wont allow me to vote for you.

[Workdawg]

I see you snuck in a post Zach, its definitely interesting that the fonz didn't get hammered down by his top scum picks.

While I agree with ve that the fonz seems to simply talk his way out of suspicion, ve never ceases to amaze me with his scummy play.

What are your thoughts on that, Zach?

[Workdawg]

I don't want the day to end prematurely, that's all. I still think he's scum, but we're a week from the deadline and if we are wrong, ve would have just cost us the game.

I honestly didn't even notice the number of people who had a chance to hammer him, I just rushed an Unvote as soon as I read he was at l-1. Actually, now that I take a count, EVERYONE not on his wagon (only cym and grim) had a chance to early hammer him. So I guess if they don't intend to do so, wtf.

VOTE: the fonz

[Workdawg]

FUCK

You were solo scummy ve, how souls the rest not see it? Great gambit though. Gg

[Workdawg]

Wow, my phone autocorrect slaughtered that last post. I think you get the gist of it though.

[Workdawg]

I was just pondering this game again... kicking myself for letting VE pwn us like that when I remembered this draft I had saved... dated July 12

God damn it.

-----------

VE and Cym

Post 67 - Coaching about switching votes... meh
post 85 & 93 - reaction to Cym's "scum slip"... as MissJJ mentioned, seems a bit like coaching here too. Why would you hope he doesn't make a scum slip? You should be hoping he DOES.
VE votes for Cym twice (156, 460) - Both times he gets a typical response from cym, and then unvotes within 24 hours. Cym doesn't really defend himself in either case, but VE unvotes anyway. Smells like he's just prodding his scumbuddy.
Post 700 - coaching

The wagons

Cym joins my wagon and then VE jumps off. Cym then starts talking about how he's going to hammer, but he never joins cobbler's wagon (I already posted my thoughts on this). As a team, are they REALLY trying to avoid being on the same wagon? Why did VE abandon my wagon in favor of cobbler's right after cym joined it? I know Zach's post and vote against VE occurred, but cym had just evened out the wagons to 3-3.