Mini 1243: Magician Mafia (Game Over)

[Crab Canon]

vote vp

. I'm never on a team with that guy.
Oh wait...errr

unvote, vote: sottyrulez

There can only be one hydra.

~Juls

[Crab Canon]

1) Of fire and ice, I proceed. From my cage I have been freed. The cage of flesh and bone, with what I once forbode.What was in your cage?2) Some prefer logic, others their gut, how say you?3) Are you one who anticipates the enemy move, or one who reacts to the enemy's moves?4) In a world where you could never be criticized for being wrong (because no one would know that you are wrong) would you lie more often than normal? Would you speak your mind/do things more than normal?

1) stop trying to be creative
2) false dichotomy
3) I make the enemy react
4) I speak my mind quite often now...well pretty much all the time, so no to the latter question. To the first, that seems like an unrelated issue since lying is an ethical choice more so than being correct or incorrect.

Vi, where are you?

[Crab Canon]

@saulres - you've played with junpei before?

[Crab Canon]

@saulres - you've played with junpei before?

No, I have not. I've played with Amrun, and I've played with springlullaby, but not with anyone else in this game.

Why do you ask?

cause you were certainly kissing his arse with those high fives. I was wondering if you had a history together that I should know about.

[Crab Canon]

@Junpei - Do you get any alignment tells from Spring saying she is going to lurk for 10 pages?

@Sathoris - Why did you vote Junpei?

*eyes widen in alarm*
*conjures earplugs into hands from seemingly nowhere*
*places earplugs appropriately*

I spit my cherry coke out when I read this. Nice of you to finally join us!

~Juls

[Crab Canon]

*brings suitcase on stage*
*opens suitcase to reveal smaller suitcase inside*
*opens smaller suitcase to reveal a safebox*
*opens safebox to reveal a mystery box*
*opens mystery box to reveal a one-shot Cult Cop ability a matryoshka doll*

*shoves large pile of excess baggage to side*

I don't even know what this means or how it correlates with me spitting cherry coke but I love this post restriction.

Vi, tell me, are you allowed to break your post restriction X amount of times per day, X amount of times per game? Incorporate the number "1" into your response for the former, and the number "2" for the latter. The second number will be what X is, so you should incorporate that into your answer as well. If you are not allowed to break restriction ever, use the number "3".

Wow that is complicated.

Unvote, vote saulres

[Crab Canon]

^ post by Juls

[Crab Canon]

4nxi3ty - are you an alt?

[Crab Canon]

How about we all stop asking Vi about her post restriction in an effort to get her modkilled? It's pretty obvious what her restriction is, and there is nothing she can do about it. If you can't figure it out on your own, then that's your problem. Regardless of her alignment, baiting for modkills is dirty pool. So, knock it off.

[Crab Canon]

donates to Michele Bachmann 2012 Campaign

Policy lynch

[Crab Canon]

Many of them are, but I wouldn't say all. Nor should it matter. We're one head and you're not going to hear any cognitive dissonance from us. Don't you worry your pretty little head.

[Crab Canon]

Unvote, Vote: Junpei

Junpei, you learn anything about of your RVS questions? I find you strangely contentless upon review asking those questions, worrying about if I sign my posts or not, and then sheeping a vote onto salures for what looks more like noob behavior than alignment indicative behavior.

Tell me something substantial you've learned from those questions so I know you're not just faking it.

[Crab Canon]

The one comment he made about the questions was not substantial if that's what you're implying with the bolded. If it's not...I don't understand your meaning.

[Crab Canon]

I still don't get it, honestly. I think you're trying to say that part of my vote is weak, but it's page four and I don't mind.

[Crab Canon]

We're not calling you a noob and that is fact one of the conversations going on in our hydra QT. You aren't a noob. You and I (Juls) have played together. You were much more aggressive in that game. Trying to control things. You were town. Here, you are tentative (for instance where you put saulres at L-3) and seem to be posting just to be active, not to scum hunt (such as when you were asking why I signed my posts and VP didn't...what do you learn from that about our alignment? Absolutely nothing).

[Crab Canon]

Now I changed the questions slightly (my makeshift poem is in there now) from my last usage, but I did that for enjoyment. The only other place I've used these questions is in [redacted].

Now what I think you want to say here is "hey, I

only

use these questions as town". But what I get from this is "hey, I took these questions I used as town and put them here so I would look town." And you made sure to drive it home with:

Why'd you reference [redacted], an example I'd like to use but can't, don't make it seem like a poor representation of the questions.

To be honest, your questions don't concern me, it's the follow up that does. If you ask questions in this game you should have a reason for asking them and follow through.

Ace's 96 is spot on for what I am getting from Junpei.

I like it when answers like these happen (ones that aren't like GuyNamedRigs answers; very short) because there is more to analyze.

Why did you take exception with GuyNamedRigs' answers but not with ours? I do believe ours was just as short.

[Crab Canon]

4nxi3ty should really answer the question.

vote: crab canon

to even things up

"To even things up" just feels... off for a random vote reason. The subsequent unvote for seemingly no reason (and followed by no vote of anyone else) makes it look a little like distancing. It's nothing major for now but I would like an answer to my question so I can monitor their interactions in the future.

His "to even things up" looked to be in reference to voting the hydras when people started voting sottyrulez. Doesn't appear anything to me.

I can't make heads or tails of Shift, honestly.

[Crab Canon]

Why are you so inactive this game Locke?

[Crab Canon]

4nxi3ty got a lot better as he posted about Shift and about CC.

Elaborate on this please. Particularly the part about us.

lumping it into an accusation that attempting to communicate with Vi is trying to modkill Vi

orly? It was made out to be like any communication with Vi should be stopped?

Post 63 - It has nothing to do with inside information and more to do with figuring out who Vi is and realizing that it is likely a town role. Last time Vi "faked" a post restriction she pretty much admitted it was self inflicted. Here, I see the post restriction as coming from DDD given who it is.

Post 121 - Sometimes a rose is just a rose. How is being unable to read Shift at this juncture a scum tell. Can you read Shift? Is saying it out loud the scum tell?

So let's hear it.

[Crab Canon]

it's not guaranteed by any means. I think you'd have to know DDD to understand. I don't really want to get into any kind of discussion that would give away info on who I think the role is really. I know that's cryptic, but I feel like if I get too much into an explanation it'd be more obvious than it already is.

[Crab Canon]

I'm not using it to determine alignments. I'm not saying Vi gets a free pass for anything. I'm saying, 'this is a role I reasonably expect to be town, but take everything with a grain of salt.' Let's not make it out to be something it's not.

I do agree with you that mods can just WIFOM that sort of thing. Vi should be scumhunted like anyone else (though her post restriction complicates things a touch). So far she seems protown and my knowing DDD (and I know him well in the world of mafia) tells me that role is more likely town than not.

clear?

[Crab Canon]

His early posts were very WTF and I wasn't sure what kind of player we had here. But from post 105 onward he picks it up and starts scum hunting. He pokes Shift for the strange defense of his wagon he gave in post 67, something we noted on our read. It really comes out of left field.

ok, and you said that what 4nxi3ty said about us also turned you around. what exactly did he say about us that changed your opinion of him?

It's funny, I knew your response was going to be something along those lines. I think your statement can be interpreted to have that effect. At the very least, you were attempting to cut off a line of discussion. (About Vi's post restriction.) Personally my thoughts would have expanded to figuring out more about what Vi can respond to and how Vi might be able to communicate with us more clearly without having to talk about the apparent post restriction. (Which it seems Vi is unable to discuss.) Your apparent reaction was, STOP ASKING ABOUT THE POST RESTRICTION BECAUSE OMG MODKILL.

I don't think my statement can be interpreted to have that effect at all actually. I explicitly said 'stop asking about the post restriction' I believe. I don't see how that implies 'stop communicating with Vi.' And yes, I was cutting off that line of discussion because I think it's scummy to repeatedly try to press a player about something that has the potential to get them modkilled. Asking them once to clarify? Sure, that's cool if you think it's necessary. Repeatedly trying to goad the player into posting about it when it's already been made clear there is a risk of modkill? I'm going to stop that. Even IF the player asking is town and the player replying is scum, it's kind of against the integrity of the game, don't you think? I find it pretty ludicrous that you somehow find that scummy.

Character setup speculation, now that's a great reason to think someone is town.

Again, it's not like I'm calling Vi clear town on my speculation, just giving an opinion. You seem awfully antagonistic over nothing.

What was the point of it other than to dissent from other's reads? Why just him, in particular, at that point in time?

People were giving their reads of him. I've been keeping an eye on him, but I really am having a hard time getting a clear read on him. As above, this seems way too antagonistic for what I'd expect from you too. Frankly, it feels to me like you guys are reaching for any reason to vote for us. You really believe the stuff you're citing or are you just trying to pressure us?

[Crab Canon]

Unvote, Vote: Sottyrulez

Sorry, but townSottyrulez is never this obstinate about answering simple questions. I don't see how I strawmanned anything you said or argued semantics with you. You misrepped what I said when the meaning was as clear as day. In terms of softly suspecting you, well it wasn't so soft.

[Crab Canon]

How about we all stop asking Vi about her post restriction in an effort to get her modkilled?

It's pretty obvious what her restriction is, and there is nothing she can do about it. If you can't figure it out on your own, then that's your problem. Regardless of her alignment, baiting for modkills is dirty pool. So, knock it off.

Explain to me how that is unclear in any way, shape or form. Even drawing a picture would make that less clear than it already is.

[Crab Canon]

Everyone lynch Sottyrulez now. I won't be moving my vote today.

[Crab Canon]

How about we all stop asking Vi about her post restriction in an effort to get her modkilled?

It's pretty obvious what her restriction is, and there is nothing she can do about it. If you can't figure it out on your own, then that's your problem. Regardless of her alignment, baiting for modkills is dirty pool. So, knock it off.

Explain to me how that is unclear in any way, shape or form. Even drawing a picture would make that less clear than it already is.

Whenever you're ready to answer this, that'd be great. You can malign my name all you'd like and say I'm arguing semantics, but if you can't actually prove your point, then I don't see how you feel you're actually scumhunting.

For those of you following at home not so closely, this is the interaction:

Sottyrulez: CC was trying to get people to stop communicating with Vi.
CC: I don't see how what I said could have been interpreted that way.
Sottyrulez: I see how it could. You were saying to stop talking about her post restriction like it was a bad thing, implying you knew for sure she was telling the truth.
CC: Please show me where I said to stop talking to her.
Sottyrulez: LOL SEMANTICS
CC: What? Here's the quote where I explicitly said, let's not push on the post restriction she said she could get modkilled over. I think that goes against the integrity of mafia.
Sottyrulez: CC just wants to argue. LYNCH NAO.

and etc. Your complete and utter refusal to back anything up with logic shows you got in too deep with a bad argument, as scum are wont to do. I think I've given you plenty of chances to admit you simply misinterpreted what I wrote. Now you're actively misrepresenting it and painting it like I'm trying to malign your name through jedi mind tricks. I've directly quoted what I said and expressed how it is completely clear. Unless you can do the same, you're just puffing hot air.

[Crab Canon]

sottyrulez brought up some valid points and this fluffy interaction with saulres got my attention. so looks like crab wil be a very informative dish.

lol, answering saulres' question is a fluffy interaction in your opinion?

Which points that sotty made do you feel are strong?

This is going to be an epic day if scum go all in versus me today. This is my favorite type of game

[Crab Canon]

ok, and you said that what 4nxi3ty said about us also turned you around. what exactly did he say about us that changed your opinion of him?

yet to answer this Scumttyrulez

[Crab Canon]

Again, I don't understand why you're being obstinate toward very specific questions that should be easy to answer if you're town.

[Crab Canon]

I haven't twisted anyone's words in the least actually.

I was answering saulres' question because he asked. Presumably, he wanted to get a better read on me and answering his question would help him do that. I don't see a reason to ignore questions asked to me.

Speaking of which:

Which points that sotty made do you feel are strong?

[Crab Canon]

What the hell do the images in scottyrulezs' posts mean?

I mean, with Vi's, I can look at the file name and figure it out. But not scotty's.

they are saying I'm misrepresenting their posts. That I am "strawmanning them."

[Crab Canon]

He hasn't really said a lot about you, but he's voting you and well we like that. Cause you're scum.

Ok, missed that line amidst the BS. Saw the other two and those are definitely not answers. But it was exactly what I was getting at in the first place. You are saying you liked the things he said about me, but then it's just a vote, first in the RVS and then a vote without an explanation. I don't see how that does anything for you in terms of reading his alignment.

[Crab Canon]

Regradless, VP's twisting and squirming thought his pressure has been pretty bad. I don't think he has reacted well to our vote at all.

^this is a pretty big smear campaign. I asked you rationally several times to explain your reasoning. If anything, you were being belligerent with me and using buzzwords like strawmanning and semantics to bolster your rhetoric when you could not logically back the point you were making.

[Crab Canon]

I do encourage everyone to read over this past interaction between SR and myself. I think it is quite telling and needs to be looked at beyond the rhetoric spit by either side.

crab canon twists more than a machine at a twizzler factory XD.

Where's that exactly?

[Crab Canon]

I mean what words specifically do you feel I twisted?

[Crab Canon]

quotes please

[Crab Canon]

Every one of my arguments goes back to saying SR's points are pointing to things that are not scummy in the least. I've yet to misrepresent their case, which was:

1) calling Vi's post restriction real implies inside information that she's not scum
2) stating my inconclusive feelings on shift was scummy
3) I attempted to stifle discussion with Vi in a way that was beyond just her post restriction, and that if I was only talking about her post restriction it is still scummy.

[Crab Canon]

antagonistic is my interpretation and hardly any kind of buzzword. I do think their posts were antagonistic. This game is about giving interpretations and I don't think it's unfair of me to say I feel that way about specific posts. I also don't think saying they misrepresented something is a buzzword either because I backed it up with a quote from me that pretty much contradicts what they claimed I said.

Using buzzwords like semantics argument and strawmanning without providing concrete examples of how I am doing those things is different from what you are saying there.

Were there any other places you felt I twisted their words?

[Crab Canon]

Right. Let me clarify then: interpretations that logically follow from context and things said in the thread.

[Crab Canon]

@ Anxiety

how am I not scumhunting? Sotty and Zachrulez, the two heads of that hydra, are both excellent scumhunters and logical players to a hilt. I've played many games with both, including them combined as Sottyrulez. Now, when I see a completely bad case from them on me, it strikes me as quite out of character for them. Any personal bias aside, this is how I would react regardless of who they made the case on. I pressured back to see how they would react at first and determine if they were really believing the case they made or just blowing smoke in an attempt to figure out my alignment. The most telling thing about the entire interaction is that they persisted in the face of their case being shot full of holes. Had they said 'oh, well I guess I can understand better now' or something along those lines when I showed clearly that they were stretching to make a case, then maybe I could understand your point. They didn't though. They've dug in their heels and seem to want to paint me as some kind of word twisting, lawyer dog that can't be trusted. I think that's a pretty common smear campaign scum use, and I get vibes of their play in WWF Road to Wrestlmania when I had them pegged as scum and they claimed I was misrepresenting their play and blah blah. They even used the same "twisting our words" argument in that game. It's poppycock frankly.

I really wish DDD was playing this game because he'd be all over this like a cheap suit.

[Crab Canon]

You're hardly illogical, Zach. You may take different stances in mafia theory than some people, but I believe you are quite logical in the sense that you only vote for reasons you believe in and that do make sense. At least to me.

I do think the reactions are slightly different between these games because in that one you tried to appease me at first. Here you've gone full teeth without hesitation. What do you see are the differences in the 'twist your words' arguments you used there and the one you are using here?

[Crab Canon]

what do you feel I'm twisting then exactly?

[Crab Canon]

hi-larious

[Crab Canon]

not you. I mean SR and ace suddenly turning tail.

[Crab Canon]

*Anxiety

[Crab Canon]

my thoughts on ace so far are that he's not pushing hard on anyone so far. his primary suspect appeared to be Anxiety, but then he said he's not scummy. That is definitely scummy. He's not more likely to be scum than Sottyrulez however.

Please share your pantomime thoughts on Sottyrulez and explain if you can why you aren't voting them for their illogical play here. TIA.

[Crab Canon]

4nxi3ty misinterpreted me.

hrm?

[Crab Canon]

also, do you think Junpei is scummier than Sottyrulez?

[Crab Canon]

I actually agree with Sottyrulez on something, whodathunkit. No rolefishing necessary saulrex.

[Crab Canon]

I honestly don't understand what you guys are trying to say because I typoed two people's names that both start with A. It's pretty clear I was referring to Anxiety.

[Crab Canon]

You realize he was saying I'm scumbuddies with you. You're saying I'm scumbuddies with you?

[Crab Canon]

@sotty - *Vi starts CC wagon* *sotty jumps on CC wagon* *sotty fabricates ridiculous explanations* *Vi starts ace wagon* *sotty jumps on ace wagon* *TBC*

Yeah it's bullshit. Thought so.

I think that line of reasoning accurately applies to both you and Anxiety. What's so bullshit about it? Those things didn't happen?

*fishy replaces in*

Awesome Hi, Fishy!

[Crab Canon]

I get a clueless town vibe from Riggs honestly. Seems like a distraction more than anything.

[Crab Canon]

Boy this game has a lot of different bandwagons. Here I just finished my analysis of the sotty vs. cc debate, coming up with sotty being scummier than cc, only to find that now the leading bandwagon is on ace. Time to read again.

Welcome, fishy, fishy, fishy, ooh!

You can still vote Sottyrulez. It's a very viable and excellent bandwagon to join.

[Crab Canon]

I'm serious

[Crab Canon]

The thing is sottyrulez, you're just painting me like I'm some diabolical genius. You're saying 'town and scum can both be wrong.' So, in that situation where you were entirely wrong and greatly persistent about it despite being completely incorrect, how do you feel I should have read that? How would you read that if the tables were reversed?

I'm not going to lie that I have high expectations for you two, but I think you guys hold me up to a similar standard. I try not to have any kind of burden of proficiency for you, but it truly does bother me that you chose to get into a rhetorical argument with me rather than just say 'I dun messed up there.' I don't see anything about what I did as a 'personal spat.' you came at me hard with a terrible case. I pointed out why I thought said case was terrible based upon what transpired in the thread. How is that me making it some kind of spat?

If sotty flips scum, Anxiety needs to go next. Anxiety may need to go anyway based upon his continuing effort to active lurk and make unfounded accusations.

Saulres, if you're leaving for the rest of the game day, I highly encourage a sotty vote. They are scum big time, imo. It will give lots of information as well.

Sorry this is a brief post. I am in the process of moving. Juls should have something more substantial very soon.

[Crab Canon]

VP is in the process of moving and I am a little behind on this game due to a VERY busy week. I am going to read up today and get my thoughts up.

[Crab Canon]

Magician Mafia

This guy really looks like a schmuck doesn't he?

The Magic Castle is beset on all sides by those who would see it burned to the ground; can the Magicians who hone their craft inside defend it from this egregious assault or will it crumble despite their efforts and the art and history of magic lost for all time.

Game Type: 13 player Mini Theme

The Promise: No cults, no jesters

Player Requirements: No explicit requirements; but the mod (that's me) reserves the right to decline troublemakers and nuisances of all sorts.

Two pre-in spots remaining, PM me if interested.

I am catching up now btw.

[Crab Canon]

OK I am all caught up. I am going to make this quick (because football starts in 15 minutes and I do nothing else but football on Sundays!).

Reading our QT and VP's post in thread I completely agree with him on most everything except Guy_Named_Riggs (will explain in a sec). I won't rehash what VP has already covered but I had a few additional things:

Re: sottyrulez

VP's spot on in the way sotty has handled this argument. The only thing I would like to add is relating to post 189. This is the thing that made me go "wow!". VP has expressed the SAME EXACT THING that Amrun was saying over and over but Sotty refused to back down. Only when others started coming to our defense did SR finally back off their argument.

Re: saulres

I am really not liking the free pass that saul is getting in this game. Every post he has made since 199+ have been COMPLETELY USELESS. In 275, 288, 293, 322, and 342 he either gives us a recap of the game or he says "woe is me, I don't understand what's going on". This is a self-meta so it doesn't carry much weight, more of a red flag, but in 240 he also says "I am trying to figure out the setup" (paraphrase) which is exactly how I slipped by in Mind Screw by trying to "figure things out". Also, I noted a few places where it felt like he was playing a newb card.

Re: Guy_Named_Riggs

VP suggested that he thought GNR was just bad town but I disagree. Post 243 is really really damning to both him and sotty. I really hate how he suspects sotty but says "oh I will get your partner instead". Bus your buddy, vote someone else. If sotty flips scum you can guarantee that GNR is scum and ace is town (yes, yes, yes...connections...but we already have a firm scum read on SR).

Re: springlullabye

It's page 15, time to stop lurking.

Re: Junpei

Already mentioned a few things about him early on but his content here is way less than I would expect from him.

Re: Anxiety

There are some things I see from anxiety that are complete bull shit but I am not convinced it is coming from scum.

Re: Locke and Fishy

I am content with their catch up content

Re: Amrun

She's town, period.

Re: ace

He is making a mountain out of a molehill on VP's mistakenly typing ace instead of anxiety but otherwise town.

Re: shift

I have a small town tell from him in post 23 (stopping Spring from calling him town) but otherwise null.

Re: Vi

Mostly town but pushing weak associations between us and ace are, well weak.

I think that is everybody, end was rushed...football time!
tldr; good with our vote.

[Crab Canon]

Let me be clear...I get where you might see some of the earlier connections you noted but then I feel like you are just pushing it a little too far (reaching). Example.

[Crab Canon]

There you go again Junpei. What does that tell you about us? Stop fluff-posting.

[Crab Canon]

To be clear, usually we will discuss things in our QT, however, VP is gone at the moment and I can't discuss this particular read with him but felt it was worth noting. I will definitely when I get back. Get over it.

[Crab Canon]

Get over it.

I have been busy this week. It was my daughter's birthday and I worked a lot of overtime. I have skimmed the thread at best. I have been talking to VP in our QT a lot more since I have access to the QT at work but not the thread. GNR did not come up in any of our conversations (probably because VP didn't notice him). Are you seriously trying to make a case out of this? That's all you can come up with from my ENTIRE post?

[Crab Canon]

I am caught up now. I "had" skimmed the thread from Monday-Friday. (past tense)

[Crab Canon]

EBWOP (I clearly said "have" so that was a mistake, it should have said "had")

[Crab Canon]

I think what Vi is trying to say is that Ace is not interested in the wagons that involve us (Crab Canon) and is quick to dismiss them. He also says the wagon on us is bullshit while turning around and saying "but CC is scummy for saying my name when he meant Anxiety". Saying a wagon is bullshit on someone you note is scummy is not consistent. Close Vi?

What I don't get is how you think VP accidentally typing Ace instead of Anxiety is some sort of connection to ace when it was clearly a typo. For the most part I don't think ace's views have been scummy but that may be because I tend to agree with some of them (like that our wagon was bullshit). At best he thinks we are town, at worst he is buddying. Obviously we have a different perspective of this since we know we are town so we can't see the scum-motivation to buddy

us

, of all people, at the time he did. It would have been much easier just to jump on the bandwagon and ride the train to lynchville.

[Crab Canon]

I really don't like Shift's weak jump to a policy lynch when sotty is at L-2, why do you think springlullaby is a better choice than sotty right now?

Here's a hint, we aren't policy lynching today (although springlullaby isn't a bad choice for other reasons).

Put up a genuine case on someone or get back on sotty.

You know what I'm willing to see where this wagon goes,

Unvote, Vote: springlullaby

.

The timing of Shift's vote still leaves a bad taste in my mouth but I don't think it has any bearing on springlullaby's alignment and this game has been in a stall.

In no way does this mean we should be forgetting about sotty.

Yeah this is probably the scummiest thing I have seen all day.

Unvote, vote: ace

[Crab Canon]

The case where she lurks?

confirm vote ace

[Crab Canon]

Really, vi? You don't think that vote was a very opportunistic vote switch? Spring lullabye is not active lurking. She is actively being a waste of space and is very blatant about it.

[Crab Canon]

Junpei, you are taking a situation that is very clear and reasonable and turning it into a RIDICULOUS case. VP and I did not have an opportunity to communicate between the time I caught up and the time he left for his move. We joined a hydra together for this very reason. He was going to be moving and I will be out of town with no access from October 14-23. There are going to be times where there is just one head in here. GNR isn't the lynch today so the point is moot. If need be, we will discuss this further when he gets settled in. This is the last time I am discussing this. Either move on or continue to weak scum hunt and we will deal with you accordingly.

[Crab Canon]

@spring - I can't help but notice you take "regular posting" into consideration several times. I am curious what that makes you since your stance is to lurk for 10 pages (or more).

@amrun - why do you think shift is more viable than junpei? I would personally be more interested in the latter. Right now I would go for junpei, ace, or sotty. I really don't like how sotty has not posted much since the sr wagon deteriorated.

[Crab Canon]

I am not interested in either of those wagons today Spring. GNR, while I do feel is scummy, I want to discuss him more with my other half when he returns. In this regard he is closely tied to Sotty and I would be up for that lynch. If Sotty were to flip scum GNR would be my number one target. With regards to Shift, I think he is pretty preoccupied with life. I do have a small town-tell from him early where you tried to say one of his posts were coming from town based on his "join date" and he corrected you. In other words, he didn't want to get a free pass because of his join date. I think scum would have been content to let you continue believing the way you do. So I am not interested in that lynch either. We have a fast approaching deadline here. It's either going to be ace, you, or Sotty. I would prefer ace. I don't think you are as scummy as Vi thinks you are mainly because you have been so blatant about your lurkiness. I do agree this sudden interest in the game is an attempt to not get lynched but I don't know that it is always scum that will pull out all stops to not get lynched. I also liked your honesty when I asked you the "regular posting" question. My read on you is "slightly leaning town".

We have 52 hours until deadline folks, we need to come to a consensus. Please note the wagons you are interested in joining in your next post. For me, as stated already, I would be willing to get on a ace, sotty, or Junpei wagon today. I might consider a saulres wagon but it's awful late to start that up. Keep in mind that we need to get someone to L-1 today so we can get a claim and adjust if necessary.

[Crab Canon]

First: Masons or Neighbors? I would assume Masons given the duo but given the suspiciousness of GNR I guess Neighbors. We suspected a Penn was around but I would have put my money on Anxiety given the mimicking.

OK, so Vi's explanation of his 249 objection of ace makes a lot more sense now. And really makes me even more suspicious of ace. I had not read it like that, I just thought it was an odd case to make (reaching). Which now makes me think he is even more scummy.

I am reading your case on spring here Vi and I do get a self-preservation vibe from her. But like I said before, I don't really know that it is always a scum sentiment. I hate getting lynched. It makes me feel like a failure so I would fight my lynch hard as town too. I just think ace and Junpei are way scummier. Meh, I will think some more about it but I'm not seeing her as scummy as you are.

---

Again, I don't understand why you're being obstinate toward very specific questions that should be easy to answer if you're town.

I was answering saulres' question because he asked. Presumably, he wanted to get a better read on me and answering his question would help him do that. I don't see a reason to ignore questions asked to me.

do you agree with junpei, that not answering questions=scum?

or maybe ignoring some questions to avoid circular arguements is better?

CC i am still waiting for an answer to those two questions, i don't need whole a case on what is scummy, just a simple answer to the questions and why you chose to answer saulres and not me.

Well, this whole exchange was between you and my other head but I will attempt to answer. You had commented on a "fluffy interaction" with saulres who asked why we felt that Teller would be town. Now that the cats out of the bag, we both agreed that DDD's love for Penn and Teller would make them town. But I digress. We didn't understand how you thought that answering a question was somehow "fluffy". We just saw it as answering a simple question. Do we think answering a question or failing to is scummy? That would depend on the situation. The question sotty was failing to answer was a simple enough question and by not answering it showed us that they didn't have an answer for it. So in that instance it was scummy. Not answering RQS questions is another story and we could care less who answered Junpei's questions because we thought they were stupid. With regards to ignoring questions, again it would depend on context. If you are town trying to avoid a circular argument I would probably prefer you say "I'm not getting into a circular argument with you" or "you're scum so I am not answering your question". Make sense?

I have skipped some of these walls (except the Penn/Teller one because it was juicy), I worked 12+ hours today and I need a hot bath. I'll be back in a couple hours and will try to read them.

[Crab Canon]

CC i did not ask you to discuss theory or sotty or junpei or that interaction between you and saul.

I asked you to simply answer the questions and explain why it took so long to respond to me.

I did answer your questions, I just don't think it is a yes/no question. As to why we didn't answer your other question, I can't answer for my other half until he gets back but I didn't notice this question until you just brought it to my attention. It was on like page 7. Why didn't it bother you until now?


@sotty - I thought you two were married, why do you need a quicktopic to discuss reads? (not game related I know but my curiosity and etc.)

[Crab Canon]

My position is that I would like to lynch Ace,

I have no interest in lynching Sotty

and I would compromise on SL, but I don't have a particularly strong scumread on her. I think her play has been lacklustre but I don't see a whole lot of scum motivation (or any motivation up until recently) other than potentially in the self-preservation.

This summarizes my position as well (minus the stricken part).

[Crab Canon]

Why are all of us who have strong scum reads on ace having to compromise for the much weaker SL wagon?!?!?!

Amrun is suspicious of ace, Vi was suspicious of ace at one time, Fishy has been suspicious of ace, Junpei is ace's scumbuddy, GNR was on ace earlier, Shift is busy omgusing, Anxiety is in his own world.

Why is ace not the lynch and it's looking like SL will be?

[Crab Canon]

Why aren't you voting him now? Saulres is not getting lynched today.

[Crab Canon]

There won't even be a chance to claim or hammer if you don't put your vote on a viable wagon. And you wonder why I say you are in your own world?

[Crab Canon]

They are neighbors Amrun

[Crab Canon]

I am not going to be around at deadline and this will probably be my last post before night. I don't intend on changing my vote. Just an FYI. Get a lynch done please.

[Crab Canon]

I'm back suckas.

Vote: GNR

Juls had somewhat convinced me of her thoughts on him from what she left me in our QT and Vi looks way more protown out of that neighborhood.

@Vi - my biggest hangup with GNR is that he openly posted your suspicions of him in thread. Why would he do that as scum? I mean, I think his claiming time was weird and may have been meant as an attempt to out your role info...but his scum team would have already had that info, so that kind of knocks that motivation down. Why would he malign his name with your words if he's scum?

Anxiety is scum too, imo.

[Crab Canon]

VP is still not quite up to full activity and we are still trying to discuss some things that occurred in his absence. But I am still 100% on board for an ace or Junpei lynch. GNR would probably be my third choice though. I am going to go ahead and

Unvote, Vote: Ace

I told VP in our QT he can switch it back if he feels so inclined but I really feel strongly that scum is in Junpei/Ace (maybe even both although their "closeness in the openness" kinda makes me think maybe not both). GNR is useless for sure and some of my suspicion toward him was tied to Sotty. Also, the fact that Vi, who I have a town read on for the most part, is pushing him makes me interested to know more about their interactions outside of thread.

@Vi - when you get back tomorrow, can you please let us know if GNR is doing something outside of thread that makes you certain he is scum? Yesterday you seemed to be pushing spring on the idea that she and GNR were scum together. I did not get the impression it was the opposite.

I know there is more to address but I have to go to work. I have left some notes for VP in the QT so hopefully he can get online today and be more active. I'm off to work.

[Crab Canon]

I don't like this GNR/Vi/ace triangle AT ALL right now. It's a case built out of "just trust us" when 2 of the 3 I explicitly DO NOT TRUST and the other is slowly edging toward the dark side. From what I can gather, Vi is saying that ace is town because he is active and can post her thoughts in thread. And then the rolefishing...oh wait, he is backing off now that half the active players are calling him on it. My vote stands.

In other news, VP is still getting settled in, I haven't heard from him in a couple days (though that is to be expected). Hopefully we will be able to sync up just in time for me to leave on my vacation.

[Crab Canon]

Am I in crazy land? Why would we sac a vig for the possibility of confirming a bulletproof?

[Crab Canon]

Vi please explain to me why ace is town. I am getting annoyed as well. You have the ability to talk through your neighbors so use it...more.

[Crab Canon]

She explained why ace is town? Where?

[Crab Canon]

*rolls eyes*

[Crab Canon]

Completely unrelated but I saw Penn and teller in July. Saw the bullet trick in person. Pretty cool. Just thought I would share. VP said DDD would be jealous of me.

[Crab Canon]

Then you explain amrun...


Vi, which finger?

[Crab Canon]

Why you would be frustrated with me I have no idea.

I think she means she is frustrated with the pr and the situation but I dunno.

[Crab Canon]

You know you love me.

[Crab Canon]

Amrun and vi while you are both here, what are your current thoughts on junpei?

[Crab Canon]

Did your bulletproof go off last night, showing that someone tried to kill you? Does bulletproof work that way?

Manufactured question +scum points.

[Crab Canon]

Sorry, reading on my iPad, guess I missed that.

[Crab Canon]

hmmpf maybe i should go back to lynching saulres since everone thinks ace is a saint, cc will you pressure ace more or change your vote to saulres?

If I change my vote it is going to junpei or gnr.

[Crab Canon]

Actually I'm not going to get support for ace today. And 750 by Saul just made me want GNR dead.

unvote, vote gnr

[Crab Canon]

Hand a piece of paper to ace to explain your crooked smile and while you're at it explain the metal bar

[Crab Canon]

Because it felt like a question you already knew the answer to.

[Crab Canon]

Vi, you can vote me all day long if you want. You can blame yourself for fluxuating reads because you have thrown a massive dose of confusion on this game. You are like a woman teasing sex. You flaunt yourself and say "oh, doesn't this look nice" and as soon as I finally say "ok, I can go with this" you rip it back and say "No!!!! I hate you.". You have done this TWICE now with us and it is getting REALLY annoying. I am getting a strong Vi-from-Dynasty-Warriors vibe from you. Where you are completely confused and leading town on wild goose chases (at least here you don't seem to have the ability to kill town). I don't know which way is up. I really wish VP would get back because I have a mound of thoughts piling up in the QT and I really would like his input but here are my thoughts/responses, plain as day. If VP doesn't agree with him, well he can sort that out when I get back.

First, we have NOT been " on the sidelines". Take a peak at the post counts, we are solidly here, #1 on the leaderboard. We have made 18 posts today, which returned Sunday. 18 posts in 4 days is hardly on the sidelines.
Second, I expressed suspicion of GNR yesterday. He is in my top 3 as I have stated very clearly. However, I was backing off of it a little bit given some of my suspicion of him was tied to Sotty. With Sotty being dead-town, it reduced some of the suspicion of him. I guess VP was convinced by my arguments in the QT but being that I was here most of yesterday and he was not I felt I had a better feel for the game and that is why I switched to ace. Which leads me to...
Third, Ace. I have a strong scum read on ace. Yesterday his vote hop on spring was Bad with a capital B. And today he comes in rolefishing for a vigilante. I am really disappointed that you are giving him a free pass because he is posting your messages and pushing Anxiety (against your wishes).
Fourth, the Saul post. Saulres has played the newbie card consistently throughout this game. But sometimes he shows these glimpses of a person who really knows what is going on. I know the newb card well. I played it very often until it got to the point where it wasn't going to fly anymore. Tell me, does a newbie

really

ask the question "do you know if your bulletproof vest is hit or not?". I don't think they do. I think a newbie doesn't even think about that. It reads as if someone has told them the details of their role and he is trying to ask a question that makes him look "confused" if and when GNR gets lynched. So, yes, now I have an excuse to get back on a GNR lynch which I wasn't at all opposed to. Wow, crazy, I know.
Fifth, Junpei. Really? Vi has a strong case on me? You are kidding right? When I get home from work I am seriously going to make a mixed tape of all of Junpei's buddying. THIS....IS...RI....DIC....ULOUS!

[Crab Canon]

You flaunt yourself and say "oh, doesn't this look nice" and as soon as I finally say "ok, I can go with this" you rip it back and say "No!!!! I hate you.".

*puzzled look*

Day 1, you were pushing an ace lynch. When I came around to it, he was no longer scummy to you. Day 2, you are pushing a GNR lynch, when I came around to it, he isn't your choice anymore. It's like you are toying with me and it is making very nervous about you.

I am getting a strong Vi-from-Dynasty-Warriors vibe from you.

*prints post out*
*turns it around*

Why are all of us who have strong scum reads on

ace

having to compromise for the much weaker

SL

wagon?!?!?!

Fifth,

Junpei

. Really?

Vi

has a strong case on me? You are kidding right? When I get home from work I am seriously going to make a mixed tape of all of Junpei's buddying. THIS....IS...RI....DIC....ULOUS!

Can someone point to a single rule that

F&F

HAVE been right about? They are blowing smoke up our asses and you guys are saying "thank you may I have another?"

*gives inquisitive glare*

I am not saying you are blowing smoke, I just think you are off this game with your scum hunting. Spring Lullaby was not a good lynch. But you were stubborn about it and several people who I believe to be town were forced to compromise on it despite not really wanting that lynch. Now you are going to start pushing me and we are going to lather, rinse, repeat. You don't have a strong case on me. You are saying that because I had an "excuse" to get back on the GNR lynch I am scum. And now you have ace's name in green as if he is confirmed town? Penn & Teller: Bullshit!

today he comes in rolefishing for a vigilante.

*waves hi!*

That's not how he presented it at all and now this is revisionism. He came out rolefishing on the basis that he didn't trust you. Now you are saying that you were pushing him to get the vigilante to claim?

Fourth, the Saul post. Saulres has played the newbie card consistently throughout this game. But sometimes he shows these glimpses of a person who really knows what is going on. I know the newb card well. I played it very often until it got to the point where it wasn't going to fly anymore. Tell me, does a newbie really ask the question "do you know if your bulletproof vest is hit or not?". I don't think they do. I think a newbie doesn't even think about that. It reads as if someone has told them the details of their role and he is trying to ask a question that makes him look "confused" if and when GNR gets lynched. So, yes, now I have an excuse to get back on a GNR lynch which I wasn't at all opposed to. Wow, crazy, I know.

Saulres

has played the newbie card consistently throughout this game.

So, yes, now I have an excuse to get back on a

GNR

lynch

If there is a second killer, perhaps it's saulres based on his first post of D2. This is just conjecture; right or wrong he's not worth pursuing atm.

*points to you*
*makes hand in shape of gun*
*points at saulres*
*bends thumb to first finger while pulling hand upward*

I assume this is you saying that I should be lynching saulres and not GNR? If I believe that GNR/saulres *could* be scum together which one is the most informative lynch? I think the GNR lynch is way more informative because we learn about you and potentially ace. We lynch saulres, we don't get the extra info.

Next up:
1. dig up my list of saulres playing the newb card
2. make my Junpei buddying list

[Crab Canon]

I'm just going to do this raw from our hydra QT from where I caught up during day 1. I will see if there are any additions for this day. (Apologies in advance for multiposting)

Saulres:
Post 5 - "Why lurk" to springlullabye. Probably a newb thing and not realizing that spring is garnering reaction/telling the truth.
Post 37 - Upset about being voted, kinda a jokey post (followed by 38, another jokey post).
Post 62 - suggests vi signaled her scumbuddies to vote
Post 127 - Seems to be playing the newb card.
Post 129 - Chastising for insignificant things (quoting whole posts), says anxiety has info that there are no cults, stupid case all around
Post 177 - Another newb card.
Post 182 - I don't like this buddying here by Saulres especially after anxiety just talked about "fluffy interaction" It feels like he is trying to solidify a tie to us.
Post 192 - insinuating that we are masons with Vi is stupid. If we were masons, Vi wouldn't be suspicious of us.
Post 199 - Did he ever reread our interactions with sottyrulez?
Post 240 - This is a self meta tell but "trying to figure things out" is how I tried to blend in during mind screw.
Post 275 - Thanks for the update on the state of the game. *rolls eyes* I just think this guy is fluff posting.
Post 288 - Another game recap. Gawd this guy!
Post 293 - Fucking A, this guy gave another recap...wth?!?!?!
Post 322 - asks questions about what's going on...
Post 324 - stupid vote on anxiety.
Post 342 - More "I don't understand"

[Crab Canon]

We can add these to the list as well in a quick iso:

Post 348 - Fluff post
Post 479 - Fluff post
Post 591 - Disappointment over the SL lynch
Post 595 - Pursuing a stupid line of questioning about Vi using a rope in her post. Seriously, this is dumb.
Post 596 - Newb card about how the vote tags are formatted
Post 599 - More pursuing the rope questioning
Post 603 - Fluff post
Post 688 - Fluff post
Post 750 - Manufactured question
Post 765 - Newb card

[Crab Canon]

Notes on Junpei:

Post 9 - RQS questions.
Post 36 - getting details about Vi's post restriction.
Post 45 - Announce L-3 for Saulres, votes him after saying he didn't find him scummy for something but calling him scummy for something else (leaving lots of outs here).
Post 50 - it wasn't scummy until Vi brought it to my attention.
Post 71 - Making a mountain out a molehill for VP and I signing/not signing posts
Post 95 - Go back and see if he has highest post count? Suggests here he does. If I remember he has disappeared more.
Our Post 115 - did he answer this?
Post 330 - I agree with Sotty (in 331) this is another weak and stupid argument.
Post 346 - Buddying/defending Fishy
Post 361 - Pursuing hydra disagreement as a scumtell
Post 365 - Continues hydra disagreement agrument
Post 380 - More buddying Fish
Post 417 - White knighting on behalf of SL
Post 461 - More pursuing hydra disagreement as a scumtell
Post 526 - easing over to the SL mislynch
Post 563 - Possible buddying of ace?
Post 567 - Willing to hammer ace?
Post 569 - ace is a STRONG town read, SL is a STRONG scum read. This post is really scummy.
<Confused by 563 to 569>
Post 620 - buddying saul?
Post 773 - buddying Vi

I may change my vote tomorrow. I need to step away and digest this game a little bit. VP posted that he should have internet today/tomorrow so I hope he can get caught up and we can figure some things out.

[Crab Canon]

Wow that's pretty selective, picking out just that one question. How about the rest of it where I put an argument against 4nxi1ety?

These are my raw notes. I note the things that I find townie and the things I find scummy. I do not note things that are null to me.

What? How is asking for an explanation of an image a newbie card?

It's the whole "oh I am so confused/focusing on things that don't matter".

At tie to you? In what possible way could you have construed that?

If I recall correctly anxiety had just said "I don't like the fluffy interaction with CC" and you followed with a "fluffy interaction". I didn't like it. You are getting a little pissy over my raw notes here. These are my personal, raw notes on you as I noted them throughout my read. If I felt this was important enough I would have brought it up in thread at the time. As it were, this is probably not a big deal.

Why yes, yes I did.

I am aware that you did. Again, raw notes. I made a note of it at the time to make sure you did follow up and weren't just making promises.

Got it, asking to make sure I understand what's going on is a boring read for you. You can stop recapping that now.

There were a series of posts where you did NOTHING but say "Let me make sure I got this straight..." and recap what had happened since your last post. This, my friend, is not scum hunting. This is active without content.

Of course you would never do any of the things you accuse me of.

LOL, reach much? Probably one of those is truly a fluff post and that was the one about seeing Penn and Teller. One is letting the game know when they should expect content from us. The rest were ALL game related in some fashion if nothing more than to drive home a point.


And please, show me how you got to this:

Crab Canon (VP Baltar/Juls): High scum probability

from this:

Here I just finished my analysis of the sotty vs. cc debate, coming up with sotty being scummier than cc

At that point I realized that I kept getting what I felt as townfeel for CC and scumfeel for Sotty. I did some skimming instead of continuing the details and found nothing which made me change my mind.

and I look forward to reviewing the thread to look at CC more closely.

CC seems to be quite calm, I don't know why sotty was going all nuts yesterday over him. I see nothing in CC's ISO which is clearly town or clearly scum. Nulltell at this point.

Please, make your case. Otherwise this is strictly OMGUS.

[Crab Canon]

Oh really?

CC is town

Why? CC has gone up on my scumdar due to sotty's flip, I just haven't had time to review his ISO.

I do encourage everyone to read over this past interaction between SR and myself. I think it is quite telling and needs to be looked at beyond the rhetoric spit by either side.

Just did that as well as the rest of CC's ISO. CC seems to be quite calm, I don't know why sotty was going all nuts yesterday over him. I see nothing in CC's ISO which is clearly town or clearly scum. Nulltell at this point.

Spoiler: Rant about hydras (igonre if you want, except CC)

I'm rather -- distressed -- over the breaks a hydra gets that a solo player doesn't. In particular, "Oh, part of me feels that so-and-so is scum, but my other head disagrees." If a solo player said "I think that so-and-so is scum, but he could also be town" then that player is immediately criticized for not being committal (as 4nxi3ty did to me earlier in this thread). Where's the challenge of CC for that, 4nxi3ty? Oh, that's right, you can't because it's two people not one. I can't wait for the "I didn't agree with my other head on that vote but I didn't get back to the computer in time to change it."

Given that, I'd hoped that CC would have lived up to this:

We're one head and you're not going to hear any cognitive dissonance from us

But no:

Reading our QT and VP's post in thread I completely agree with him on most everything

except

Guy_Named_Riggs (will explain in a sec).

VP suggested that he thought GNR was just bad town but

I disagree

.

The next analyses I plan to do are on those who lynched SL yesterday. Most likely there's at least one (if not more) scum on that wagon. But I want to hear from Vi and GNR about Ace's reveal, first.

I am not great at math (actually I am, it was my minor in college) but I do believe 656 is greater than 628. So your case is that we went up your scumdar but on further review it was a nulltell yet that is your case on me?

Yeah...I'm gonna have to...

Unvote, vote: saulres

[Crab Canon]

First off, CC, your bit about those being raw notes and your interpretations therefore being suffice is wrong. When you do PBP you need links to the post so that we can cross reference every post with ease. The way you have it laid out makes it very hard to discern what you're talking about and forces us to open up more tabs and flip between them to read. What I'm trying to say is: Saulres has every right to be upset with your interpretation of the facts.

If you (or anyone) has questions about what I wrote I am happy to explain. They are raw notes so going back and adding links was more than I cared to do (although I am usually pretty generous with linking things). The way they have changed the board, opening up a second window and isoing the person is a very simple thing to do. When you have time, you can also explain your thought process from 563 to 569, thanks.

Also, I don't interpret that post by fishy that way at all. I think he is offering multiple scenarios, one of which is that he blocked anxiety from shooting player X. Another is that Vi was shot. I don't get how you think he is saying BOTH occurred.

[Crab Canon]

Crab Canon, this is a no reveal game, and a claim could potentially help town quite a lot. There is no harm in prolonging the lynch by a few hours when I'm around checking the thread constantly ready to hammer if someone wants to blitz day 1 for some reason. A claim would have been very helpful in the event that spring flips town (however unlikely). That was my logic, along with the fact that people indicated that they were going to post before the deadline and several hadn't.

I had no problem with prolonging the day. What I am asking you is why you were willing to hammer ace if he was a strong town read for you? Also, when did you develop this "strong scum read" on SL? I don't see much commenting on SL from you except to say that her reads were "cookie cutter".

[Crab Canon]

Yes, that is how I interpreted it.

And the second part to my question?

[Crab Canon]

The way you implied I interpreted it is the way I interpreted. I thought you were saying you would insta-hammer ace.

Also, really? Are we going to get into semantics here? strong read / pretty good scum read has the same intent. What did you see in her iso that made you certain she was scum?

[Crab Canon]

Unvote

VP said he is going to catchup tonight/tomorrow. We will vote after we talk.

[Crab Canon]

So you're saying us trying to figure out Junpei's motivation at that stage is pointless?

VP head reporting in here. I've read up, but I need to discuss things with my other head because I have a few different reads from her atm.

[Crab Canon]

well, that's probably true of any post. You really seem to not be giving Junpei any legs to stand on. What is the bullet version of your Junpei case again?

[Crab Canon]

I'll be waiting right here in the meantime. Shouldn't take long to sum it up.

[Crab Canon]

the longest bullet case in history

[Crab Canon]

six posts later, amrun still can't give me some bullet points.

[Crab Canon]

Locke vote is quite weird and pointless, imo. There are much better lynch options today. (Also, we think he's town, so...)

We're going to try to hammer out our disagreements today if possible and give a full reads post. I understand that my absence kind of threw things off kilter for crab canon in this game. This will be rectified shortly.

[Crab Canon]

Can I please just play one game where some noob doesn't claim early? whywhywhywhywhy

[Crab Canon]

^silly rabbit

some advice: the more scum call someone a village idiot the riskier it is to night kill them leaving a mislynch as the only option.

yeah, it couldn't be that it was a shitty play if you're town. I must be in the wrong.

[Crab Canon]

Well, on top of that, the wagon on you could very easily go nowhere. For instance, I think it's pretty curious that Amrun still hasn't come in here and posted a quick case on Junpei even though she's been posting all over the site since I asked. It rather shows to me that she's fabricating how much she thinks he's scum. I couldn't tell you what her case is, and I don't know if anyone could.

Even if you're town, and our hydra is kind of leaning in that direction due to your attitude and the speed of your wagon, claiming now essentially gives the scum info they didn't need as Junpei said. It was something that was completely unnecessary.

p.edit -

[Crab Canon]

let's look at it this way: unicorns and moonbeams. Anyhow, what's done is done. Let's move forward and stop making pointless justifications.

[Crab Canon]

Incoming wall. Apologies in advance...

Salures - major noob feel. Whether that is from town or scum is difficult to tell. He OMGUSed us really hard there, which looked like a terrible knee jerk reaction. He also doesn't seem to know what his reads were from Day 1, which suggests they may have been fabricated or he's just completely not paying attention to this game.

Ace - He has been forthcoming with his information today, which is good. If he was neighborizing scum, he would have been less prone to do this. Vi has a town read on him as well from QT interactions, which is even better. Juls had a strong scum read on him day one, but we both have a strong townread on Vi and we're willing to let that ride for now.

Amrun - Felt very town on D1 to both of us, today not as much. Juls feels she has some town meta similar to her play in Speed Mafia, Baltar doesn't find her to avoid the thread as town. Either way, we both think the fact that she took so long to give a Junpei case was weak. I had only asked for the bullet points, but she went back and quoted herself. Kind of makes me (Baltar) feel like she couldn't recite the case off the top of her head. I think town players should always be able to quickly rattle off a few reasons why they want a scummy player lynched...especially someone they have been going after relentlessly all game. Amrun seemingly was incapable of doing this. She said she had other matters to attend to, but had time to post frequently in GD/F62. Quick case should have been quick, imo. Juls is very deadset on Amrun being town though. Our overall read will remain in the town category.

Junpei - Juls feels very strongly that Junpei is scum because of the stuff from her earlier post analysis. VP isn't as sold on this. We both think he's being lazy. He's on the back foot a lot and spends more time defending himself than hunting scum. From Juls: "This does not feel like the Junpei-town I played with in his Newbie game. He can say he's turned over a new leaf all he wants but his posting is too docile and his scum-hunting is not aggressive. I would probably stake money on him being scum." Gonna put him in the scum category.

GNR - This is another slot we are having a hard time getting on the same page about. D1, Baltar thought he was mostly noob town and Juls thought he was scum. D2, Baltar voted him initially after being swayed by Juls' arguments, and to apply pressure on Vi's QT scumread. QT scumreads are powerful because it is difficult to hide your intentions in close quarters like that. Juls lost some interest in GNR today, finding him noob town. We looked at some of his other ongoing games (Newbie 1153, Mini 1230 and Newbie 1153 (completed)). Have to say he's a tough read. There are times when he looks pretty competent and is pressuring people. Other times (such as 1153) he is completely lost and gets emotional (voting himself). It is possible that GNR is just floundering this game. I wouldn't paint him as competent as Vi did, though he does have moments where he's not completely aloof either. Vi having a scum read on him in close quarters still weighs heavy, and he made excuses for not posting everything when clearly asked to do so. That seemed likely intentional. Overall he falls on the scummy and would be a good lynch to sort things out as well.

Anxiety - We think he's town, even if he's frustrating at times. Latest reason is him harping on how he was right to claim and then walking away kind of pissed off when he was clearly wrong. Needs better focus.

Locke - Locke is lurking way too much this game, but when he does come in he is making sensible comments and seems to genuinely care about hunting scum. He's not as influential as I normally see him in games, but posting on cruise control seems to be a disease this game.

Luxury - Shift was pretty null for us starting D2. He was another sideline player. Regfan came in with more fire in his belly. That was good and something we both liked to see. The SK hunting is kind of off, and could be seen as scum motivated. Not that it's bad to kill an SK if there is one. Eliminating a killing faction early helps the town. Problem is that we dont' know there is one. Scum may have more insight into something like that based upon group numbers/who they tried to kill etc. Townish side of neutral, but keeping an eye here.

Fishy - We've liked fishy's content for the most part. There is no doubt some bias here because his reads have been similar to ours, but he's been logical and explained his thought processes pretty consistently. His reads seem genuine as well, which is something I look for in Fishy-town vs. Fishy-scum. He maybe got a little defensive with Vi earlier, but Vi's been kind of frustrating at times this game (as she's prone to do as town )

Vi - Strong town read for both of us pretty much all game. Her push on springlullaby was bad yesterday, but she seems genuinely inquisitive overall. She's been kind of overly obtuse at times, but that's not a terrible sin. GNR flipping scum would confirm her as town, which would be awesome with her bulletproof as well.

unvote, vote: guy name riggs

We're ready to end this day I believe.

[Crab Canon]

woot

[Crab Canon]

vote: Junpei

This seems like the best choice for the day.

[Crab Canon]

What does no one dying have to do with your anxiety vote? Also, do you really think two scum were run up to lynching territory yesterday?

[Crab Canon]

so you think anxiety has a connection to GNR or you're just voting him for the same reasons as yesterday?

[Crab Canon]

Also reading through Riggs ISO essentially confirms Vi, Ace and Saulres as town especially his final post.

Salures is questionable. That's just too much wifom in that statement honestly. I can't judge him based on that. Vi is definitely town though, and bulletproof which may explain the lost kill last night. If scum were going to go after her, they'd have to take that shot eventually. that's wifom too of course.

[Crab Canon]

so you think anxiety has a connection to GNR or you're just voting him for the same reasons as yesterday?

I still need to look at their interactions, but I will. I cannot think of a better lynch though right now anyway.

pedit: Luxury, explain.

why not look for GNR connections and then vote?

[Crab Canon]

yes, I think anxiety is town. I also think you're scum, soooo

[Crab Canon]

Yeah, dont' get me wrong. I still have sal in my town column. That statement was just weird for me.

And you're right about fishy as roleblocker. I had kind of forgotten that he was in the game really, but he would definitely be a kill priority for scum I'd think.

Our hydra's official stance is that Amrun is town, but really that is me (VP) compromising with Juls' read. I actually agree with you that she is pretty scummy looking and was anti-GNR lynch, then kind of gave a false 'woo hoo' when he was lynched. HOWEVER, Juls says she has a strong town meta read of Amrun that she's super confident in. I told her I'd defer to her judgement on it since the scumminess I get from Amrun isn't super strong. You'll have to make your case to Juls before our hydra changes its official stance on that.

Meanwhile, Junpei is scum.

[Crab Canon]

prestidigitate

someone has been doing their homework

[Crab Canon]

Did you see me solve Sudo's math problem? I think we already know which one of us has been put to shame.

Anyhow, you voting Fishy and then questioning Junpei is worthy.

[Crab Canon]

Anyhow, you voting Fishy and then questioning Junpei is worthy.

*quizzical look*

You haven't heard from fishy yet and he could have simply stopped the kill last night. Meanwhile, Junpei has looked like scum for awhile now, avoided the GNR wagon, and started the day less than stellar.

tl;dr - u so crazy

[Crab Canon]

b-b-but I just got here

[Crab Canon]

You think or know Anxiety is an SK? Also, if you think he's third party, there would be two stopped kills last night wouldn't there?

[Crab Canon]

Yeah. that really seems like a lot of crazy speculation honestly. I mean, maybe I can get on board with the Fishy claims RB to save GNR part, but the SK stuff is a bit out there imo. Too much speculation to reach that conclusion. I want to hear from Fishy as well.

[Crab Canon]

Fishy - why didn't you vote salures? Why are you agreeing that Vi's points against you are valid when you know they aren't true?

Neither head of Crab Cannon cares for that response.

[Crab Canon]

Ok, can you clarify for me which you think is more likely now:

Scum team

or

Scum team + SK

[Crab Canon]

your tiger rips out people's hearts?

[Crab Canon]

also, why did you crumb like 10 pages after the start of the day?

[Crab Canon]

unvote, vote:salures

incentive

[Crab Canon]

saul is a vig/SK. At any rate, he's not the kind of person you lynch.

wat?

[Crab Canon]

Also, Snake, I assume you've had time to catch up now so I'd like to hear a lot from you today.

[Crab Canon]

I think the reason to rush is that it wouldn't look like you could be scum deciding by the seat of your pants to crumb later when it's potentially convenient. I need to discuss this with my other head, but my personal gut reaction is that the I vigged SR crumb is a little late in the day to be legit.

[Crab Canon]

Help me understand why you claimed today. You just didn't want town believing there was an SK around? You were worried that Fishy would be lynched incorrectly because of SK speculation?

I dont' quite follow your Vi/ace hate either, but I can read over it a few more times to see if that makes sense to me.

p.edit - there aren't rules of course. Let me try to explain what I mean by on the fly. IF you were scum in that situation, you would have seen people talking about a vig kill on SR already and thought 'hey, I could breadcrumb now as a safety net and maybe claim that vig kill later if I need to.' Whereas, had you claimed in your first post or something, there would be no doubt that you had been the one that took that shot because no one else would have brought it up before you. There is certainly wifom involved here. I hope you can appreciate that.

[Crab Canon]

we're fine with finishing mass claim, and I second that Amrun should go first

[Crab Canon]

ROFL the mafia and the town share an uncontrollable kill The Tiger, brilliant flavor.

Constant Vigilance...sorry, had to.

Catching up now...you guys post a lot when I'm sleeping.

[Crab Canon]

Ok, caught up.

First, I'm a VT and I dont' have any passive abilities. Snake's investigations has finally swayed Juls as well, putting Amrun back on the table for her. I'll just say this, VTs don't have passive abilities and Amrun is clearly lying about her role if Snake returned that. I don't see any reason for Snake to lie like that either.

Unvote, Vote: Amrun

In terms of the vigges, it could probably work as town and explain Vi's bulletproof claim. GNR was probably lying about his bulletproof claim and just playing off of Vi's claim I'm guessing. He may have even had it in a fakeclaim or something. I'm not sold on there being bulletproof scum. If he was lying, it makes Fishy a little more suspicious.

Anxiety, salures is really your only read at this point? What do you think of Amrun lying about her role?

It's very irritating Snake left before telling what the "You are Amazing" role does. Showing a clear ability would negate Amrun as a VT and hurry this process along.

I'm not sure why name claiming is a bad thing.

Fishy lynch is probably okay today as well, so I'm willing to put our vote there if needed. I think Amrun has a higher probability of hitting scum give her role lie/GNR defense/fakey fake celebration at the GNR lynch, but majority rules, so....

[Crab Canon]

paraphrase what the "you are amazing" ability says

Also, can you explain your townread on GNR yesterday?

[Crab Canon]

Not sure why you want to stay on gnr.

seems like strong feelings here. You were repeatedly going throughout the day saying how you thought it was impossible for him to be scum because of vig shots and etc. At least own up to it.

[Crab Canon]

I'm willing to wait on the order if you think it still has the possibility of catching scum now that Amrun went outside of it. If that botched it, I can claim now so we can hurry this along and get back to scumhunting.

[Crab Canon]

ok, I'll continue waiting then.

[Crab Canon]

The post I quoted was about 100 posts after what salures quoted. There were many others as well. I am just too busy at the moment to go back over them. You most definitely were knocking on the GNR lynch yesterday.

[Crab Canon]

At least we have another amazing character to give a little explanation now. It could be a misnomer by the mod to neuter Snake's cop ability some and create confusion precisely like this. I don't really care for Amrun's persistent denial that she was against the GNR lynch when she clearly was. Luxury's quotes are accurate. Even if you want to argue that you were simply calling Vi's theory "dumb," her theory was one trying to get GNR lynched and you were trying your hardest to shoot it full of holes. Basically what you're saying is that you were arguing against it so vehemently on principle alone...which is just weird. Town players are here to lynch scum and not lynch townies. If you had no real feeling about GNR, as you say, why waste your time trying to stop his lynch from going through? It just doesn't make logical sense.

I believe it's my turn to claim now, so I'm David Copperfield.

Fishy, apart from the "Amazing" gate, how do you feel about Amrun? You seem awfully quiet today about who you think is scum other than Anxiety.

[Crab Canon]

er..sorry sal. Thought you said you didn't care about order and I just happened to be online.

[Crab Canon]

I agree with Luxury, particularly the don't shoot snake part. He's V/LA first of all...that's his reason for not posting. Second, he can investigate people who claimed PRs or VT to see if they are telling the truth. Anyone returning unclaimed abilities is likely scum. Why you would want to shoot him is beyond me.

I think you guys shooting between Amrun and Anxiety is a good idea tonight.

I'm willing to wait on the Fishy lynch a few more days until he and Snake can get some posts in.

[Crab Canon]

well, if people are set on not waiting for fishy or snake, we may as well just lynch fishy then and move things along. I'm willing to hammer today. I'll be online for the next two hours or so.

[Crab Canon]

unvote, vote: Fishy

ok then, let's hope that's for the best.

[Crab Canon]

You killed Vi? wtf?

Also, I think we should be lynching Amrun today.

Snake, who did you investigate last night?

[Crab Canon]

Oh, guess I missed that part of it. Um, I won't direct your investigation honestly. If I were you though, I'd investigate the person I thought most likely to be faking their role, be it a VT or a PR. I'd probably have the VTs on my short list considering most of the PRs look legitimate. Saul ripping out Vi's heart is very strange though.

p.edit - then what happened there exactly? Why is Vi dead with the same flavor as Sotty?

[Crab Canon]

I think the setup speculation is getting a bit rampant here and probably not going to be that helpful. Clearly there is some weirdness happening with the night kills that we aren't going to be able to piece together.

I'm a little wary of calling both saulres and Junpei town. We've seen one town/scum pairing already in this game, and it wouldn't entirely surprise me to see DDD create a cerebral game with townie/scum partnerships. It's kind of agonizing though because there isn't much of a way to tell what is happening given the town PR we appear to have.

That being said, I don't think lynching either of them today is a good move. There are too many vanillas here imo. Someone is lying. I think Anxiety and Amrun both being resistant to being rolecopped again is more than a bit suspicious. Scum will have the voting ability as well no doubt, and Amrun already came back with something other than VT abilities (though none of us know what amazing does, honestly). I may be okay with a cop one, lynch one scenario.

[Crab Canon]

I can buy that as well. Anxiety lynch would be alright.

[Crab Canon]

sounds like a lot of fencesitting from you to me.

You say you're fine with an investigation BUT WATCH OUT TOWN.

I'm not gonna castigate you too much though because if I was investigated once as town, I'd think it was stupid to investigate me again as well. However, speaking objectively, it does make more sense to investigate someone for a second time today because of the nature of the role. It doesn't return perfect information, therefore a second investigation (be it on you or Anxiety) will return a much more likely clear or not clear on that player. I don't think a third investigation is necessary. It's a numbers game really.

[Crab Canon]

Snake, in your role PM, does your Amazing ability come before or after your Voter one?

I'm wondering if the results come in downward order, in which case that would clear 4nxi3ty and possibly Amrun, and would be extremely useful on Luxury or CC.

It was my impression that his investigation returns a random role ability. Why do you think it's in order?

In terms of Anxiety's suggestion I'm trying to dodge investigation, well that's just stupid. I'm saying Snake should investigate a VT and it should ultimately be his choice, even if that's me. I have nothing to hide and I can guarantee an investigation of me will return a voter ability. That being said, I do think --and I've explained logically why-- confirming a previous investigation is a more efficient use of the ability. Regardless, Snake just needs to pick and make it happen so we can move forward with the game.

[Crab Canon]

It's not a role I've ever heard of, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me to be random from DDD.

DDD is a mafia hunting purist that doesn't believe in putting too much faith in PRs to win the game for town. He doesn't like setup speculation without facts and he doesn't care for roles that are going to break the game for either alignment. If he created a rolecop role, I don't see why he wouldn't hamstring it in some way, shape or form. I see no reason to believe it's in sequential order when snake said he just investigates and receives and ability. My inclination was to immediately think random.

[Crab Canon]

Not sure what you mean by "without facts". I find it impossible to look at the lack of kills on nights 1 and 2 without speculating about the setup.

Facts would be something you can reasonably assume based upon various pieces of corroborating evidence. ie, things we don't have here.

How sure are you that Junpei is town? I really feel like you're town because your descriptions of everything are super detailed. Junpei I don't get the same vibe from.

[Crab Canon]

Yeah, I agree about hurrying the investigation up. We don't need the game stalling.

[Crab Canon]

why are you getting so angry?

[Crab Canon]

I agree with Saulres' analysis of Amrun pushing the biggest wagons but GNR. Felt that way since yesterday. I'm still torn between lynching Anxiety for the RB or Amrun for obv connection to GNR.

[Crab Canon]

In my continuing quest to find the true scum, I stumbled across this.

does a newbie really ask the question "do you know if your bulletproof vest is hit or not?".

That's not what I asked. I asked if bulletproof worked that worked that way. The key point of my current confusion is that nowhere did anyone say they had bulletproof vests. They said they were bulletproof, but they didn't say they had vests.

Luxury uses the same term

Since Riggs had a BP vest

But that came after CC's use of it. Is this going to be another case of "I use scum, mafia, and coven interchangeably"? Or is there something more to it? There are only 186 posts on this site which use the combination, but 2892 which use simply "bulletproof". The wiki also indicates that the vest is a variant. So it doesn't seem as likely to be a "normal" work mixup like scum/mafia would be. And with SR's flip and the argument with CC on day 1...

My logic has said CC's town, but my gut's been telling me otherwise for a while. This could be a solid scumslip, and I'm going to have to do an in-depth review of CC in this game. IGMEOY, CC.

vote: Amrun

I feel more sure about Amrun than I do Anxiety, though it's kind of a crapshoot between the two of them. If I was going to lynch outside of them, I'd lynch Junpei. I think there is a reasonable chance of a scum-town pairing in the vig partnership. The fact there is so much unexplained stuff happening with the vig kills gives me worry that one person out of that pairing isn't telling everything, that person being Junpei.

[Crab Canon]

I'm the only person voting Amrun. There is a vote count about 3 posts up.

Anxiety...u 2 dumm 2 b scum. You're lucky.

[Crab Canon]

You guys do realize that we were the ones that helped turn the tables on GNR after things started to swing away from him, right?

[Crab Canon]

We could have easily hopped on the Anxiety bandwagon at that point and pushed it through on confirmed scum GNR. Feel free to look at it yourself. Also looking at that is a point in Anxiety's favor as town, unless you think there were two scum run up there.

[Crab Canon]

Why should we not think that two scum were premiere wagons of a given day? Coincidence or is there a good reason?

I've played probably well over 100 games of mafia, and this almost never happens. It's not impossible, but town's are not that good. Running up two scum simultaneously would probably be more a matter of luck than reality.

@Anxiety - that wagon would not have turned without the momentum of our vote and persistence. Our vote was the lynch pin that greatly shifted the momentum. Additionally, you can see I was after him straight out of the gate. While we left the wagon momentarily, it was mostly because Juls and I needed to come to an agreement about it internally.

[Crab Canon]

Setal Speed Mafia is where town said "no way could all 3 mafia of hardlurked and not voted the days' main and pretty much only premier wagon day 1. Yet that's exactly what happened.

Also, scum never bus, right Crab Canon?

You're not even comparing similar things. Of course scum can lurk. That happens all the time. The odds of town being efficient and well tuned in enough to run up two scum simultaneously is extremely unlikely. The reason it's unlikely is that you basically need the scum players to assist you in doing this. That is against their win condition and not likely to happen unless they are completely aloof. Not impossible, but improbable.

In terms of bussing, yes that can happen. I'm not saying we're clear by any means, and I dont' expect anyone to believe that. What I am saying is, look at it and use your best judgement to tell if I was being genuine in my desire to lynch GNR or not. Personally, I think it's pretty obvious given the circumstances surrounding that lynch that I was actively scumhunting GNR rather than faking my way onto a buss.

your right about helping lynch him but i am not gonna rule out the possibility of bussing.

also you lied about pushing the lynch after things swayed away from gnr:

You guys do realize that we were the ones that helped turn the tables on GNR after things started to swing away from him

you pushed the lynch after my wagon died, evidence by ace's 907 post.

I didn't lie about shit. Ace did not dismantle the wagon on you.

Here is Ace's post switching votes:

I'd rather go with Riggs today since 4nxi3ty's claim doesn't read scum to me.

Unvote: Vote:Guy_Named_Riggs

Still haven't done any indepth stuff on players not named 4nxi3ty or GNR, but nothing has caught my eye recently either.

My post immediately after this is my wall post with indepth reads on everyone in the game, including GNR. I clearly laid out the most logical explanation for why GNR needed to die more than anyone else, and it was a domino effect on him from there. So, you're being more than disingenuous when you say I had nothing to do with it. I had pretty much everything to do with it. I articulated the clearest case against him.

[Crab Canon]

no, it fucking had not shifted. everything shifted after my case and vote. you can post whatever snippets you like. look at the reactions after my vote.

[Crab Canon]

the thing you're missing there is that Juls was wary of the GNR lynch. She had the stronger feelings of his towniness on D1. I (VP) thought he was scum and placed that initial vote. We had to internally reconcile our feelings, which we did and I was clear about.

No matter what you say here, you cannot refute I had the biggest case on him apart from Vi and my vote lead to the domino effect that resulted in his lynch. You can argue semantics about it all day, not gonna change those facts.

[Crab Canon]

Honestly, I don't even get what you're trying to argue. my case was perfectly clear on GNR. you're acting like it wasn't. Reads can waver, but I couldn't have been more clear from my lynching vote about my feelings on everyone in the game and why GNR was the best choice.

[Crab Canon]

that was in reference to early D1.

Here is the order of things from our QT:

Early D1 - both juls and VP are present. VP initially thinks GNR is bumbling idiot town, Juls thinks he's scummy.
Late D1 - VP is persuaded by the arguments Juls makes against GNR and agrees with her he is scummy. Juls has a change of heart and begins to think he's town. VP leaves to drive 3000 miles, juls takes over the hydra alone.

Early D2 - VP comes in and says he believes GNR to be the best lynch choice after having his reads swayed by Juls' arguments, votes. Juls, still hydraing alone basically because I was on the road, decides to pursue other avenues because she's not certain on GNR.
Late D2 - VP returns as Juls is leaving on her vacation. VP comes back and reviews the entire game, compiles reads, talks to Juls before she leaves. We reconcile all of our reads so there are no disagreements in thread. Wall post happens with clear reasoning on GNR.

All of this was made clear throughout the thread, but I understand you're slow and probably can't keep up with the timeline. I hope this clarifies your "lies" for you, so you can stop making idiotic accusations that make zero sense. kthx

p.edit - I really got to stop playing with noobs. I'm sorry, I like you guys, but you're not making any effort to actually follow this game and it's quite irritating.

[Crab Canon]

@Salures - if my memory of the timeline is slightly blurry, please forgive it because there was a ton going on at that time. It may have been N1 (which is still a part of the day 1 phase) that she backed off because of the SR flip. I was simply going from memory in that post I made. The point is that VP was the one who made the GNR vote on D2, Juls is the one who backed it off because she didn't feel as strongly. I'm sure I can go back and get a detailed timeline of every single post, but that seems quite unnecessary.

The case anxiety is making is not even clear. What is our scum motivation in all of this? His original point was that I was not pushing GNR or did not have a significant part in his lynch. My argument is that, yes we did. Look at the wall post I made and tell me if I wasn't clear. Don't get caught up in this he said/she said malarky. It's not real scumhunting and is obfuscating the issue.

I would ask to not be at L-1, lest a scum come in with a shitty reason to quick hammer. This game is already in a bad enough state, and lynching a VT over poor timeline reasoning is only going to make things worse.

[Crab Canon]

Okay, wow. Uh, I don't know what to say, these are contradictory statements regarding the thought process of the hydra.

I guess the reason I'm so surprised is that Juls and VP are considered good players, and these are huge slips.

vote CC

This is L-1, so everyone now is aware of that.

It's not a slip of anything. Please explain to me what is happening that shows any kind of scum motivation here? Do you believe we didn't play a part in the GNR lynch?

[Crab Canon]

@ Junpei - scumslips are exceedingly rare. I think if you're talking about fake scumhunting, there would be a lack of our vote explanations in thread. Those are present in my wall post. It was hardly fake and definitely not opportunistic. That's my point

2) We've tried to have almost none. Part of the problem is that I was gone for many days. Juls was unable to discuss her reads with me, nor mine with her. I think you guys need to give a little understanding to the extraneous circumstances here. We honestly have tried not to have any huge disagreements in thread, but it's difficult to keep everything perfectly uniform when one person or the other is not present. The game has to continue and the person who is present has to keep posting, whether s/he has time to discuss it with the other hydra head or not.

3) Alright. I will try to get you the timeline as I get a chance. I have a lot of work at the moment (I've already spent too much time on MS today), but I will lay it out with paraphrases from our QT and timestamps so you can better understand how it went down.

@saulres - I've been thinking about your vigging. I'm not 100 % sure you guys should vig tonight. We should crunch the numbers on it because it may have the potential to give the game to the scum if you miss.

[Crab Canon]

addendum to #2 - that being said, I do think we've been clear about our positions without having contradictions. Like I said, Anxiety is obfuscating his entire point. I don't know if he's just this bad at mafia or he's trying to distract from himself after he had his hissy fit. I lean toward the former given his wagon was counter to GNR, but his stupidity here is grating on my nerves.

[Crab Canon]

I've pointed where you're wrong several times. You continue to derp about it. I'm not gonna waste my breath if you're being illogical. But please continue to post as you like. I'm not concerned.

@ saul - what concerns me is that you're claiming the kill was sent to Vi last night inadvertently. We don't know what happened and if the scum have the ability to send your kill where they please again tonight, that's gonna be game over most likely for the town. Why do you "have to" vig?

wrong account. sorry.

[Crab Canon]

Blah, right, compulsion. Well I think you guys should try to target different people without talking about it in thread then.

@Anxiety - no, you're not keeping up with the timeline or even your own argument. The timeline is entirely unrelated to the argument you made, but you wouldn't know that. Secondly, the minor error I made in the time line was the difference between "late D1" and "first thing N1." You're deliberately trying to make it about that now, as if that is a real issue here.

[Crab Canon]

I gave very specific examples of why your case of me not pushing gnr was wrong. The vote counts are there for anyone to see as well. I don't need to requote them.

In terms of anything related to the timeline, that's going to take more time and I said I would do it later. You're simply quoting things out of context and calling them "lies." So yes, I do think you're dumb. If I didn't have a town read on you, I'd think you're scum. You should be glad I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

[Crab Canon]

Very busy today guys. Maybe timeline tomorrow.

@Anxiety - Hope everyone can see just how scummy anxiety is by selective quoting things to bolster an empty case. After that "I'm back" post, I ended up being very busy and was not here. Juls said this in thread several times after that post, stating that I had disappeared from the QT and hadn't come back yet.

VP is still not quite up to full activity and we are still trying to discuss some things that occurred in his absence.

In other news, VP is still getting settled in, I haven't heard from him in a couple days (though that is to be expected). Hopefully we will be able to sync up just in time for me to leave on my vacation.

I really wish VP would get back because I have a mound of thoughts piling up in the QT and I really would like his input but here are my thoughts/responses, plain as day. If VP doesn't agree with him, well he can sort that out when I get back.

And etc.

You are intentionally selective quoting stuff. These quotes are not hard to find at all. That's scummy and malarkey.

In terms of me saying I would lynch you or Amrun today, yes that's true. Even if I have a town read on you, it doesn't mean I'm correct. I think there is most likely to be scum hiding in the VT claims. You and Amrun are the most suspect in that group to me because Luxury looks way more town than you do. Ergo, you getting the rope isn't the worst thing in the world, even if I'm not confident that you're scum like I am with Amrun.

[Crab Canon]

You are intentionally selective quoting stuff. These quotes are not hard to find at all. That's scummy and malarkey.

In terms of me saying I would lynch you or Amrun today, yes that's true. Even if I have a town read on you, it doesn't mean I'm correct. I think there is most likely to be scum hiding in the VT claims. You and Amrun are the most suspect in that group to me because Luxury looks way more town than you do. Ergo, you getting the rope isn't the worst thing in the world, even if I'm not confident that you're scum like I am with Amrun.

yes i am selective quoting cause i want to only bring up the points that are relevant to my case and not irrelevant fluff.

you are being very non-commital with your read of me. if you have a townread on me you should be trying to prove to me why junpei(a scumread of yours) or amrun is scum, instead you deflect only to amrun(one of the easiest lynches) and say she is the best lynch because of only one point(the vt claim)

No, you're selective quoting and ignoring everything that proves your "case" doesn't make any sense. That's not fluff. That's you actively trying to skew facts.

And I'm certainly not waffling. I said I felt you were town, but you're also on a campaign of complete misinformation. I don't know how you expect me to read that as townie behavior. Amrun is hardly an "easy lynch," and she's also someone that I (VP) have been saying is scummy to me for quite a while. So bullshit on that too.

@Junpei - we are not waffling on reads or trying to exploit hydra disagreements for that reason at all. VP has been the only one posting for quite some time, so Anxiety claiming there is all this dissonance isn't even true. Juls isn't even around, so it's not possible. If you feel I've been unclear on a stance, ask and I'll tell you what my stance is. You can look at the quotes above to see how Anxiety is trying to spin it negatively when it's not.

[Crab Canon]

I never twisted a word from Sottyrulez though. That's the difference. God you better be scum this game because I can't believe you're legitimately this dense.

[Crab Canon]

no, I wouldn't have time to make the full time line, as that will take a multi-window operation with quoting and etc.

I do have time to quick reply while I finish some of my writing over these three hours however. And I will continue to call you dumb if you continue to make dumb arguments. I've shot holes in every part of your argument, and I can continue to do so without much effort. Don't you worry your pretty little head.

[Crab Canon]

Hi, it's Juls. I just got back today but I have been skimming throughout the week. VP is busy with work but says he is going to try to get to this tonight. If he can't I will but I just finished a 20 hour drive and am dead tired.

[Crab Canon]

Junpei, your threats don't scare me. If you want to vote me then do it now. Save us the bull shit reason you will make up based on our timeline. I said in my last post it will be done tonight. If vp doesn't do it in the next few hours I will.

[Crab Canon]

OK I guess VP got busy and didn't get to it. Here is our QT timeline of discussions of GNR. I have only skimmed this week but I *think* this is what you wanted.

Juls posts her catchup post late Day 1. First mention of GNR in QT

GNR
----------
Post 57 - RQS answers are boilerplate.
Post 154 - WTF, jokes and isn't even participating in the game.
Post 243 - I think you can almost guarantee that GNR is scum after this post and a STRONG STRONG STRONG tie to sotty here. Bus your buddy, vote someone else.

VP responds to Juls read of GNR

I probably wouldn't push GNR's lynch too hard today unless you're certain. He looks like low hanging fruit to me, but I have a hard time telling alignment when people play that bad.

Juls notes her tell on GNR is associated to Sotty

No, it is an associative tell. I would rather lynch Sotty who I find more scummy and then if she flips scum go after GNR.

Juls gives VP an update on what's going on with the game since he is on the road

It has now come out that GNR and Vi are in fact Neighbors (Penn & Teller of course). She used GNR to post a case on spring (by posting something in their QT and having him post it in thread) but I don't know.

End of Day One, Start of Night One

VP arrives at his destination

Hey, just got to Oregon. I'm still pretty behind in the game. You would know best strategically what we need to do I'd think. What are your impressions?

Juls explains her reads on GNR

Also GNR is scum for Post 243 alone regardless of all the lurking and the newbness. Read it. Like read it and read it again. It's God awful. And he's lurking. I need to read the few games he has been in to see if this is the norm for him but I don't have time right this minute.

VP agrees with Juls on her GNR

Ok, I read up through page 20 just now while eating lunch. I can definitely see why you think GNR is scummy. He needs to die soon cause he's very likely scum.

End of Night One, Beginning of Day Two

Juls starts backing off because most of her thoughts on GNR were tied to Sotty

I would really rather lynch ace or Junpei to GNR. GNR is useless for sure, but most of my suspicion of him was related to Sotty flipping scum.

VP wants to head back to GNR

GNR leaving stuff out from what Vi asked and then trying to make an excuse for why he left it out bugs me too. He's playing the aloof card to the hilt. I'd like to look at some of his other games and see if he's really this out of it normally or not.

Juls responds

yeah his stuff today (Saturday) has been weak. He says he lurks but Vi seems to think he gives content. I haven't had a chance to review his games.

VP convincing Juls that GNR is scum

Why was it that you backed off of GNR so much? I think their theory is bad, but Vi getting a scum read from him in a QT is a pretty strong scum tell to me. Harder to hide your intentions in close quarters like that.

Juls agrees

Because some of my suspicions of him was tied to Sotty. I don't mind if you go back there at all. We might want to put some effort into reviewing some of his other games though. I am being a little lazy on that front.

VP posts our "concensus of reads post" which was eventually posted as Post 907 in thread

**reads**

Juls responds

GNR:
Agree. I would support his lynch today.

You left off Vi. Strong town read obviously. I would like the vote to go on GNR or Junpei but I am open to other suggestions.

VP looks into GNRs "other" games

Looking at GNR's games made me wary of him. He's the best lynch today.

End of Day Two, Start of Night Two

See, we just needed to get on the same page about GNR finally.

Wonder what that bit of wifom he threw in about Salures was about. Self hammering was dumb, but he gave himself something redeeming there I guess.

[Crab Canon]

Obviously us switching in and out has caused some confusion and for that I apologize but pushing it as some sort of scum tell is dumb.
Junpei, you have decided that VP saying there will be "no dissonance" and then us having conflicting reads on one person is some sort of scum tell. That, quite frankly, is stupid. Any time we have had a disagreement we have stated it explicitly in thread. It is pretty clear who is posting for us most of the time. We often refer to the other by name when stating our other heads reads. This, we admit, has not been a traditional hydra as we have both had to leave it solely in the others hands at different times. But this is no different than someone replacing in. You don't expect Snake to have the exact same reads as Locke do you?

I will try to read up in detail on what I have missed over the next couple days and sync up with VP.

[Crab Canon]

The post you reference is the exact post that makes it look like you are attacking us for having "dissonance".

Oh I see now, Crab Canon is using hydra dissonance as reason for waffling on reads.

Yup, looks like you are saying we are scum here.

See, the thing here is a town hydra with issues could have those flip-floppy reads, but scum could also just be being noncommitable by abusing the hydra aspect of the slot.

By golly this looks accusatory too.

I don't like dysfunctional looking hydras, I can't tell what's going on in your head.

Yep, this too.

[Crab Canon]

Thanks for the timeline Juls. As you guys can clearly see, there was a logical progression of our thought process toward the GNR lynch. We had some trouble syncing up in our reads, but it was hardly flip flopping out of the blue...and this was all said in thread too. Hopefully going into more detail will end this useless cul-de-sac of a discussion so we can get back on track to lynching scum here.

[Crab Canon]

Thanks for the timeline Juls. As you guys can clearly see, there was a logical progression of our thought process toward the GNR lynch. We had some trouble syncing up in our reads, but it was hardly flip flopping out of the blue...and this was all said in thread too. Hopefully going into more detail will end this useless cul-de-sac of a discussion so we can get back on track to lynching scum here.

the really isn't a problem with reads changing or hydra's disagreeing, the main problem is that today vp baltar made numerous statements that directly contradict earlier actions and posts.

another problem is the timeline juls presented. there is no way for us to verify that what you are saying is actually in the qt, i would much rather have posts from in the thread that show this change of thought process. in addition, i saw nothing in the timeline that explains why you waited til

after luxury, vi, and ace said they wanted to lynch gnr

to push his lynch; all i saw in the timeline was you trying to present an unprovable defense of this particular contradiction:

D1, Baltar thought he was mostly noob town and Juls thought he was scum.

the thing you're missing there is that Juls was wary of the GNR lynch. She had the stronger feelings of his towniness on D1. I (VP) thought he was scum and placed that initial vote.

keep moving those goal posts darlin'

You were just harping about the timeline, now you get it and you're trying to cycle back to your original argument. My point (which was already stated) was that Vi is the only person other than us that was after GNR more. Our case was the most substantial and we feel it was the tipping point that sealed his lynch. Ace gave no case whatsoever, and Luxury wasn't that forceful about what he said either. It was our substantial case that brought in the votes that sealed his fate. You're welcome to disagree with our interpretation, but don't sit there and act like we had nothing to do with it when we clearly did. capiche?

[Crab Canon]

I feel like only half the people are playing this game.

Amrun, you would still lynch Junpei today despite his claim?

[Crab Canon]

MAYBE after Junpei is gone, saulres can vig properly.

Our hydra is kind of wondering this too.

saulres - what are your feelings on potentially taking sole control of the vig ability? Junpei has been scummy and taking him out of the equation may help to simplify whatever is going on with the vig kill at night.

[Crab Canon]

I am not opposed to taking Junpei out of the equation

if

my analysis determines he's likely scum. And however he flips will be very telling for the setup.

But

-- I'm very concerned that we could be at MyLo, so I'm not going to rush into voting Junpei if my analysis comes out with him in my top 3 town reads. Unless someone can put forth a convincing argument that there's a SK in the game, or only 2 remaining scum.

As amrun stated, I think it's on the safer side to assume 3 scum. We should definitely be lynching today with that as the worst case scenario.

I should clarify, I'm not suggesting we lynch Junpei for information purposes. We should only be lynching for who has the best chance of being scum here. Juls and I are both starting to feel Junpei may be the best bet here today. Despite his stupidity, Anxiety is probably town here...which is annoying since I'm sure the scum will leave him around to fuck up lylo anyhow. But we got to do what we got to do.

Anyhow, finish your analysis and in the meantime maybe snake can come in with some actual content.

[Crab Canon]

I sincerely hope this is the last time you play on MS.