Mini 508- Trouble in New Catania-Game Over

[Lowell]

vote beastly

. Hurt me, I hurt you. We both hurt. OPEC strategy.

[Lowell]

I got a prod. I'm here.

Tell me when something interesting happens.

[Lowell]

Check that.

unvote, vote Streeflo

Inside jokes don't sit well with me, and that's twice you've referenced other games. Trying to make friends?

Oh, also, the "suspicion" on claus is retarded. A bandwagon? Really?

FOS Kiribu, Kirishu, or whoever he is

. Too lazy to look back at the name, but one of his posts looked off as well.

Carry on.

[Lowell]

Also, why is suspecting Claus retarded? Have we outed your scumbuddy?

Yes, that must be it.

But seriously, Stree is scum.

[Lowell]

Thats weird theres a major wagon of FOS jumping around but no serious action against that person even tho there has been 4 consuective FOSes against him? Any explanation why that might be?

Good post.

People, it's okay to vote for someone (even if it's me). These FOSes look stupid and suspicious as hell.

As for the claus thing, I didn't like the way he was attacked for "starting a bandwagon". This seems like a too-convenient reason to attack someone, when in fact I dont' find putting *gasp* a 2nd or 3rd vote on someone all that meaningful.

[Lowell]

(cont'd)

.... while, yes, I am aware that he

could

in fact be scum.

[Lowell]

When someone gives me a good reason that I'm scummy, I'll respond.

I'll give you the quick teaser of what to expect:

1) The attacks on claus are retarded. MORE retarded, however, are the attacks on Scumteam Claus&Lowell. Nothing ruins D1 conversations more than people chiming in about how they found not one, but TWO, scum, based on whatever.

2) Streeflo is still scum. And I think kuribo is too. I've found not one, but TWO, scum. Don't thank me, send money.

[Lowell]

Well I'll feel bad if I die without giving my thoughts on each player. After a quick reread, here's my BRIEF synopsis of the game so far.

p1&2
-claus refuses to random vote
-stree votes and chides him for it
-LML calls that interation "interesting" post 15 (Disagree... mostly uninteresting)
-someone2 makes inside jokes with stree
-23 claus votes LML, says wants to start bandwagon
-24 rite hops off "bandwagon" (overly cautious, only 3 votes)
-31 kuribo out of nowhere chides claus for attempting bandwagon, doesn't vote (this is either waaaay cautious or just plain scummy. "Bandwagon" had exactly TWO votes)
-32 Beastly makes a point about kuribo... why does he care about this 2-person bandwagon?? Is there connection between he and rite? (agreed)

p3
-Lowell accuses Kuribo and stree for whatever reason
-FOSs start piling up: BMQ 56, someone2 58, LML 59, rite votes Lowell 57
-someone2 votes LML for lynch-talk (either crazily conservative [only 2 votes on me] or scummy)
-death omen points out how odd FOSs are (agreed, only 2 votes on me)

p4
-75 rite now decides Lowell looks scummy (looks bad, he was ALREADY voting me, looks like he's just trying to "sell" the case on me more now that others have expressed similar thoughts but have been noncommital)
-77 meaningless post by Happy accusing Lowell, but doesn't vote (looks bad due to timing, as if he's trying to fit in)
-80 kuribo votes Lowell (looks like he's trying to drive the lynch here, for the first time. Something about the post had a feeling of finality to it. Again, this strikes me as opportunistic, given others misgivings about my behavior)
-87 BMQ votes Lowell
-94 LML votes Lowell
-113 someone2 votes Lowell (scummy as hell. this is the same guy who two pages ago jumped all over LML for "ynch-talk when I had ONLY TWO VOTES. He doesn't offer much to explain why the dramatic change from attacking early bandwagoners to now putting the Lynch -1 vote. He just says it's "necessary")

Here's more specific thoughts on a few players:

Claus

is TOWN. I hope you all find that amusing. He pointed out something about BMQ that everyone else missed, that I think scum would not have bothered to do.

Stree

is Town.

unvote

. His general behavior has been decent, and I no longer blame him for the original "chummy" jokes flying around this thread.

vote someone2

. I don't like his behavior one bit. He led off by trying to buddy up to stree, then attacked an early bandwagoner on me (when it was cool to do so), then JUMPED on the bandwagon later (when it was cool to do so).

I also have reservations about

kuribo

,

happy

, and

LML

. Kuribo seems to have a bit of the "be conservative, be popular" bug, happy has been opportunisitc with the timing and tone of his posts, and LML generally strikes me as a conservative player pretending to be aggressive.

That's all. Now unvote me.

[Lowell]

I also have reservations about kuribo, happy, and LML. Kuribo seems to have a bit of the "be conservative, be popular" bug, happy has been opportunisitc with the timing and tone of his posts, and LML generally strikes me as a conservative player pretending to be aggressive.

Never, have I ever, been conservative. Do your research before you make unsubstanciated claims.

Vote stands.

Do my research?? Really? That's an argument?

Also, "I'm always this way, therefore..." arguments don't impress me.

[Lowell]

Wait, Lowell, in one post you've accused me of being too aggressive against BMQ and against Claus, and then you say I'm playing it conservative? Which is it?

Both, now that you mention it.

Hence the suspicion. That's called opportunism.

[Lowell]

Yeah okay.

unvote, vote kuribo

[Lowell]

Okay I'm getting newbie-town vibes from kuribo. From beastly as well.

unvote

I guess I'll read back to find someone else to vote.

kuribo, your "we're getting close to deadline, he's a prime candidate" is not a great reason. If this is town behavior, it's not very helpful. We get much MORE out of having MULTIPLE candidates and forcing people to choose between them. You're doing scum's job for them.

[Lowell]

I'm not certain. I just believe/d they were.

Do you want me to equivocate more? Is that your problem with me??

[Lowell]

Why is Lowell's vote hopping and all around jumpiness being vastly ignored?

Because I'm awesome.

Did everyone hear the mod? No deadline. Let's at least PRETEND to look at other lynch candidates besides me.

[Lowell]

If you'd actually like a defense, LML-- No, I don't think votehopping is scummy. Or bad. In fact I think a lot of towns would do a lot better by themselves by getting legitimate bandwagons on more people more often on D1. Attacking just one person makes it waaay to easy for scum to hide their votes.

[Lowell]

Sorry for my inactivity of these last days...

Today I won<t have time to post content. Gonna post my thoughts tomorrow

At least you have time to lynch me...

[Lowell]

kuribo, in hindsight, has a lot of reasons for voting me, which to me looks like scum (a) getting caught for voting, and (b) trying to justify it. This last post in particular really reeks of desperation. "I don't feel like Lowell is going to be any more helpful, even if we give him 100 more pages". Really? Why not? You're not even curious?

I'm a little unclear as to why, if your reason for voting is you THOUGHT we were on a deadline, your vote remains on me still. Especially since now you seem to be certain CTD is scummy-looking.

[Lowell]

Wow that's a terrible slip by someone2.

unvote, vote someone2

Well at least he has only 1 scumbuddy!

[Lowell]

someone2 is insane, and probably scum.

[Lowell]

For HS:

I think someone2 is scum, but I can't be sure maybe he's scum but maybe he's not because I am town and can't tell you exactly who is and who isn't scum so please believe me but if you don't I'll understand cuz like I said I don't know for sure that's the important thing so make up your own minds and try your best so we as town can go get the bad guys and make them pay YAY TOWN!

Is that better?

FOS HS

. "one scum left" is why I'm voting someone2. I was clear about this.

[Lowell]

We need to get a better bandwagon moving here.

It's clear to me scum are sitting back hoping I'll be lynched. We need to move another candidate to the front, at least to make people have to choose. I still say someone2 is scum (even his "defense" reeks of scuminess to me), but if not then let's pile some votes on somene else. This is going nowhere.

[Lowell]

Ok.

unvote, vote LML

[Lowell]

Huh? That was weird Lowell its almost like you want to have a vote on a particular person all the time. Just because no one else was voting for Rishi's suspect doesnt always mean you have to jump on just to please them.

FOS:Lowell

I'm not trying to please anyone, I'm trying to get this game going. Unless we get another viable wagon that people can talk about at least, I'll be lynched by sheer inertia and laziness.

Here's your problem. If I end up dead, there will be NO good information to go on for tomorrow, since no one else will have ever been in danger. And as satisfying as it may be to write "oh well, he deserved it for acting scummy" it'll still not help force some of the lurkier players to do anything that could potentially help later on.

[Lowell]

I like this someone2 guy. He's tenacious.

But really, another wagon would be useful. Does no one see this, really?

[Lowell]

rishi's post is right on the money. Too many folks are hiding behind their early votes.

unvote, vote rite

. Because why the hell not. Something needs to happen here.

[Lowell]

It's a bandwagon driven by interia and a bunch of silent players more than by reason and argument. That's what's wrong with it.

If I'm scum you'll have time to kill me later. For now, the move has to be to put some real pressure on some other players.

[Lowell]

I'm curious about something.

Lowell -- What do you think of the someone2 wagon?

I feel pretty good about it. I jumped off when it didn't seem to be gathering any steam.

FTR, I'm still not sure buy the "slip" as merely language confusion.

[Lowell]

unvote, vote HS

. He deserves a vote.

[Lowell]

These are just suppositions that can give the town information. I know that the townies are not always voting for scum players,they can make mistakes, I'm not stupid like that. But forget about the townies and think about the scum. If a player is scum, his scumbuddies will be tempted to defend him, if a player is town, scum would be tempted to attack him. So SCUM have BETTER CHANCES to defend Lowell if he's scum, and SCUM have BETTER CHANCES to attack Lowell if he is town. I know that scum can attack their scumbuddy and defend townies, but i think it would be rather stupid for a scum to attack his buddy when he's at lynch-1, but that's just my opinion, I don't know everything.

This is true only if the scum believes that his behavior can swing the town's decision to lynch that day and in the next couple of days. If a lynch is inevitable scum will defend a town player or finish off a scum player to appear pro-town. The scum realizes that if he mounts an unsuccessful defense against a correctly identified scumbuddy or manages to drive support against a townie this will draw suspicion the next day.

HS disappears, then reappears to meta-game. He casts a wide net so as not to make any real opinions clear, doesn't vote, and then shuffles away to a corner again.

[Lowell]

Man am I bored today. I'm sitting here waiting for people to post so I can inanely respond...

Anyway, let's get this HS wagon moving, please. The guy deserves to have to PLAY the game, rather than sniping from the distant rooftops with random meta-gaming theory.

[Lowell]

This is a really really lazy day. Folks who are lurking need to get off their asses and start voting.

No one has been in any danger except me the entire day, and I'm about to be lynched out of sheer inertia. This is ridiculous. There are plenty of other people worthy of a vote, let's see some action here...

[Lowell]

rite, your logic is terrible.

I may not be driving the discussion single-handedly (is that what you need?) but at least I'm HERE, and I have responded to everything that I deem important (note the last four words there) and voted for SEVERAL other players I found suspicious.

The whole point of me voting for several players was to get this game MOVING. I got attacked for that, now you're attaking me for NOT moving the game forward. This is ridiculous.

How's this for an idea. Instead of lynching me, let's go for a lurker, who we KNOW is useless.

[Lowell]

That's bad reasoning, sateal. Generally scum don't want to drop the hammer, as they'll be the first ones suspected the following day.

Let me put out there that I no longer think someone2 is scum. I would be very happy to see another lynch.

unvote, vote rite

for instance.

[Lowell]

unvote, vote someone2

great... I'm forced to do this since no one cares enough to lynch someone useful...

[Lowell]

vote HS

. Let's get this show on the road.

[Lowell]

vote vaughn

. I dont' believe I derailed this lynch yesterday. If so, sorry.

[Lowell]

Received another prod. In all likelihood I won't be able to post much until the new year. So, you know, sorry.

[Lowell]

I completely agree with stree on this. I'm not sure why the tracker claim satisfies everyone so easily.

unvote, vote kuribo

[Lowell]

unvote, vote vaughn

. This is what I was trying to do earlier. I'm giong to jump on this wagon while it's still cool.

[Lowell]

vote RossWilliam

. For Rishi's reasons.

[Lowell]

RossWilliam has not looked any more town since his votes. Post 475 especially does nothing for me. I still say he's a better lynch than someone2, though he's not a bad choice either.

I very much like claus' entrance, and consider him pro-town at the moment.

[Lowell]

Sorry didn't realize day was back. No, lynching Lowell is the wrong move.

I'm going to look back through the end of yesterday. I don't like how lynching Ross was like pulling teeth.

[Lowell]

I need to reread.

I've only played with Thok as town and his play was nothing like this - he was very active and was scum hunter champ. Has anyone played with him as scum before?

This is a stupid question. If you want to meta him, do it yourself.

FOS Satael

. So you know, there is literally nothing else to my case against her. But this post feels wrong.

I forget, what was everyone's thought on a massclaim?

[Lowell]

Yes. Very articulate.

No, but really, can someone rational answer the question, please?

[Lowell]

Okay then:

I hereby suggest a massclaim.

Now, what are everyone's thoughts? Particularly given our seeming lack of power roles, I'm not really sure why folks are so instinctively opposing this.

[Lowell]

I like Thesp's 565. Let's do it.

[Lowell]

I AM...

not a role blocker.

[Lowell]

Should I claim even if I'm at L-1 for retarded or non-existent reasons?

[Lowell]

I'm a townie.

Before some idiot hammers me, explain to me what I've done to make you think I'm scum.

[Lowell]

I'll concede I've hunted little this game. In mafiascum, sometimes you feel like you're in control and have a good read on things. In other games, not so much.

Still, this case against me looks weak, at best. Votehopping (especially early in the game) is not a legitimate reason. You're WIFOMing yourself into believng I'm scum. Sometimes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's just a damn duck. Look elsewhere.

[Lowell]

I didn't notice this about Ythill before. Let's go with that.

vote ythill

[Lowell]

1) Knowing my alignment won't do much for solving a D1 wagon. D1 wagons never make any sense.

2) The "case" against me, as far as I can tell, is STILL just "he contributes less than others." This just isn't a good reason.

3) Post 579 is awful. I'll buy the S2 as scum theory as well.

4) Sorry, I cherry-picked what claus said. What I'm more focused on was your defense of Thok over me yesterday. The best way to find out who is scum is to see what happens when, at the end of a day, a scum is up against a do-nothing townie for lynch. I think there's a lot more to be gleaned from how that lynch went down. He may have thought a protracted lynch battle might expose another scum.

[Lowell]

The "psychology" of scum is to try to lynch people who aren't them.

There, I saved us a lynch.

[Lowell]

The "psychology" of scum is to try to lynch people who aren't them.

Thanks for stating your opinion.

Please explain why D_O didn't hammer you in #115 or #124. Also please explain why he started arguing against your lynch in #124 and #136.

1) Because he didnt' want to be the guy who hammered a townie!!

2) Scumplay 101. Find a townie who isn't paying much attention, rush to his defense at his hour of need. Earn his praise and avoid his wrath.

I don't understand the question. He's arguing against my lynch because he knows I'm not scum. Imagine, if we're both scum, how he's going to look if I AM lynched (as he likely expected to happen).

[Lowell]

Here's the thing - I don't think Setael is scum, largely because of how he went after someone2. I don't think Setael would attack someone2 like he did while Thok was doing the same (though less vehemently), it's not consistent with my experience of how scum go after town. I also don't think someone2 is scum, in large part for how Thok attacked him - it certainly didn't feel like bussing to me!

I have this lingering doubt about Streeflo/Ythill which hasn't subsided, despite Ythill's pristine play.

I want to see what our newcomer thinks.

I like this post a lot. In fact, in think the most important ways scum expose themsleves are (a) when a contentious lynch vote comes down to a scum and a non-scum and (b) when a scum teammate leads a charge against a town player. Thesp's assessment looks about right to me.

[Lowell]

I feel like it has to be Yhtill or Sateal. Or both. Whatever.

[Lowell]

Wow. Big incentive for him to jump in then.

Think harder, Ythill.