Mini 568 - Nubigena (Game over!)

[Incognito]

Vote: Imat

for being about a millimeter above my name.

[Incognito]

Vote:avinashv

Mafiaplayer, did you even in fact read the opening post? Avinashv (vigilante) was killed during the Night. Further, why are you claiming Vanilla townie in the opening post?

[Incognito]

Vote:avinashv

Mafiaplayer, did you even in fact read the opening post? Avinashv (vigilante) was killed during the Night. Further, why are you claiming Vanilla townie in the opening post?

[Incognito]

I hope you learned your lesson about being an idiot last time. Try to actually devote some time and attention to the game instead of flailing around ridiculously. And claiming this early is bad, because your job as a vanilla townie is to draw kills away from power roles. I guess it wasn't much of a loss this time, because I don't think you're a priority target in anyone's book, but do think before speaking.

What's your rolename again? Be specific. (and nobody feed him answers)

jerubbaal, are you suggesting that you believe his claim? If so, why do you believe it so readily?

I actually read up on the Newbie game that I'm assuming you're referencing to and while Mafiaplayer's sporadic behavior in that game ended up getting him lynched, he didn't do something as strange as role claim right at the start of the day. I tend to not take unprovoked role claims very lightly, and I personally could see Newb scum attempting to role claim Vanilla right from the start.

Mafiaplayer, I'm gonna be blunt, what was your intention for claiming Vanilla in your opening post?

After my extensive and rigorous metagaming of the 4 or so games avinashv has joined in something like a week's time (crazy noob), I'm going to

Unvote, Vote: Lowell

What's this meta that you're referencing for this vote on Lowell?

[Incognito]

Also

mod

, could you please send a reminder to Near? I think he's the only one who hasn't posted yet.

[Incognito]

My intention was that everyone would mass roleclaim, and then we'd take the strategy of lynch all Powerroles (LAP). Sure, some Powerroles would really be powerroles, but Mafia usually claim Powers. Also, we may get a few really dumb mafia to say Claim:Mafia Goon.

In addition to what Reyo just said, there's a few things wrong with this theory:

1) Players who actually have power roles will most likely not claim to be a power role. They're more likely to claim vanilla townie than anything else to prevent being hit by the scum.

2) "Mafia usually claim Powers" is a misconception. The only time scum will most likely claim a power role is when he/she is close to being lynched. Under zero pressure though (like for example the point of the game you've suggested a mass roleclaim), scum will likely claim vanilla like everyone else.

There's probably other things wrong with the theory but that's what comes to mind right now.

Unvote; Vote: Mafiaplayer

I'd love to know what other "theories" you've got in mind.

[Incognito]

I don't see the point in asking players for the exact name of their role. The mod has listed the townsperson role pm in one of the opening posts. It does however make me wonder why Sammich has chosen to vouch for Mafiaplayer.

[Incognito]

Meh, I won't go as far as to consider both Sammich

and

Mafiaplayer as confirmed townies. I'll be treating both "claims" as null-tells and continue reading both of them as neutrals until they prove or rather

suggest

otherwise. Mafiaplayer's claim strikes me as more genuine though.

Unvote; Vote: Near

I dislike the whole "Hi, my name is Near, and I'm picking up my prod while agreeing with one person and not commenting on anything else in the thread" post.

P.S. Welcome aboard, Y.

[Incognito]

Based on a whiff of something, I'm working on a theory of a Near/Y scumteam.

You should vote for Near. He's the scummier one, and I'm all alone on this wagon. =|

[Incognito]

*sigh*

Where do I begin?

Aight whatever.

unvote, vote Near

.

Lowell, did you really fall for that? One thing that I absolutely despise is when someone tries to link two players as scum partners this early in the game. How could you claim with absolute certainty on

page 4

of the thread that you are convinced of a Y/Near scum grouping? And the fact that you actually switched your vote from Y to Near at my beckoning suggests that you

do

actually view the both of them as equivalents. I'd like a detailed analysis as to why you believe that Y and Near are most likely scum.

@Near:

You've now effectively posted a grand total of four times and in each and every one of your posts you've voted for someone different. First thephantom, then Sammich, then Imat, and finally Sammich again. Your vote hopping isn't making you look any better in my book. I currently like where my vote is.

mod:

Can you please prod thephantom? He seems to have vanished in phantom-like fashion.

[Incognito]

the_cat_herder might be a good prod too. Thanks.

[Incognito]

FoS Incognito

too, at one point he urges Lowell to vote Near, then berates him for falling into his trap. Or it was sarcasm, in which I substitute that FoS and place it on

Lowell

for just following Incognito around like a lost dog or something.

By asking Lowell to switch from Y to Near, I wanted to gauge whether or not he actually believed he found a possible scum grouping. Post 90 is just my affirmation that looking for scum groupings this early in the game without any actual solid evidence about anyone's alignments can be counterproductive. I'm curious to see Lowell's analysis though that supports the link he sees between Y and Near.

[Incognito]

Unvote, Vote:Sammich.

Once he's dead, we'll know his identity.

lol... I just noticed this.

Mafiaplayer, your reason for voting for Sammich makes no sense to me. Technically by your logic we should also vote for you all the way to lynch to find out your identity as well. Can you explain this please?

[Incognito]

As I've said, I think Mafiaplayer is some kind of troll. The idea that he might be an alt account has creep into my mind quite a few times. I don't see any genuine players, scum or not, playing like this. Well.... unless he is a jester.

These are my feelings as well. I don't necessarily think Mafiaplayer's actions have been indicative of him being scum; they're just very... off, for lack of a better word. If he really is town, I just wish he would put a little more thought into what he's saying, unless he's playing this way as some sort of Adel-ish townie gambit or something.

[Incognito]

Near, there's a few issues that I can see from your most recent post:

1) You've used two logical fallacies against jerubbaal:

a) Too Townie and
b) by claiming that jerubbaal is a good scumhunter who is pseudo-scum hunting, you've also used a form of the Burden of Proficiency.

2) Although you didn't cast a vote onto jerubbaal, this now marks yet another post where you've flipped your suspicions towards yet another player.

None of this looks good to me. Can you please explain what you mean by the following:

jerubbaal is acting too townie, it feels like he's aligning his posts to use as defense later.

Maybe provide some examples or other information from the thread that makes you feel this way?

[Incognito]

Unvote, Vote:XreyOx. She just accidentally admitted Mafia.

Mafiaplayer, could you elaborate on this? I can't seem to find where XReyoX admitted to being mafia. And in your recent answers to Y's questions, you still seemed to label XReyoX as scummy so I'm wondering why you feel that way.

[Incognito]

I disagree with having Mafiaplayer replaced out just on the basis of his playstyle. There are many players on this site who have generally anti-town playstyles who still play all the time. wank, Flameaxe, ryan (although I think he was perma-banned recently), Adel, and Battle Mage just to name a few. In our game it basically comes down to do you believe Mafiaplayer's role claim or do you think he's scum? No matter what alignment he is, he's obviously unhelpful for his faction but that's really not a solid enough reason to lynch him for.

The only way I would support a Day 1 Mafiaplayer lynch is if we absolutely can't decide on a good lynch candidate, and we're getting dangerously close to deadline. Right now though as I've stated before, I'm looking at all of his actions as null-tells. If he's scum, he'll probably eventually out himself anyway by doing something even more anti-town than we've seen thus far.

[Incognito]

btw is it possible to have a SK or a cult in this game?

Judging from the opening scene, it seems unlikely that an SK exists in this game (unless there's a doctor or roleblocker present and he/she protected/roleblocked the right person). It looks like there's only one anti-town killing group, especially since we lost a town-aligned killing role in the vigilante. That might become more apparent eventually though if two bodies hit the ground tonight.

As for a cult, it doesn't seem like there's any evidence to indicate that there is one but again, it's impossible to tell right about now. Right now though, I'm hunting under the assumption that there's only one anti-town group until more information is received that suggests otherwise.

@Lowell:

I see what you're saying about Y/Near but it's impossible to make that kind of distinction unless we are positive of either Near's or Y's alignment. One could argue that Near could be your scum partner for following your vote on thephantom. The point is, with no info about anyone's alignment it becomes somewhat illogical to attempt to link people as potential partners. It might be worth a second look though if Near is today's lynch and does come up as scum.

[Incognito]

I predict Near's lynch in about three pages.

[Incognito]

I predict Near's lynch in about three pages.

Yeah, well you need to do a little less predicting and a little more convincing me to why Near deserves my vote, bub.

Adel's been rubbing off on me. I'm still very interested in seeing the opinions of the_cat_herder and thephantom before I even think about coming to a final conclusion about who I think is scum.

[Incognito]

Ah welcome, gorckat. Looking forward to your contribution.

[Incognito]

Near, I've read up on your current reads of people and I'm a bit confused here. It seems like you're reading a number of people as town but the reasons you've given just don't jibe well with what you've said so far in this game.

Your reason for labeling me as town is because I've gone after you for quite a bit of Day 1. You seem to apply that same level of reasoning to Imat as well since you referenced his Post 123 in which he contemplates the possibility of you being scum. So in essence, you've labeled two people as town just because of the fact that they found

you

to be suspicious. Interestingly though you labeled jerubbaal as scummy earlier because he thought you were scum as well (Post 110).

Can you please explain these inconsistencies?

I don't entirely agree with your read on jerubbaal but I will admit that I, too, was finding jerubbaal suspicious early on but for slightly different reasons from you. I thought his usage of night-time WIFOM against Lowell to try to figure out the reason behind the NK choice was a bit eyebrow raising and so I questioned him about it. His response was decent, and his contribution has been pretty good so far so I decided not to pursue it further.

[Incognito]

Um, guys? Since when is voting for yourself with a real pair of dice a scum-tell? The other part about vouching for Mafiaplayer I'll give credit for but rolling dice? Come on~

[Incognito]

Um, guys? Since when is voting for yourself with a real pair of dice a scum-tell?

Not a scumtell, but not a good play either.

I don't get it. Why is it not a good play? Are you placing that much weight behind the random voting stage?

[Incognito]

Oh, so you take issue with all kinds of dice voting? I thought it was more because of the fact that he used actual, real-life dice as opposed to the ones provided by the site.

[Incognito]

All, just letting you know I'm trying to wrap up some big analysis for another game I'm in so I'll try to get caught up on recent stuff here once I'm done. Shouldn't take too long hopefully.

Incognito, why did you vote Lowell just because he's a millimeter above your name?

=/

I didn't vote for Lowell, silly! I voted for Imat.

[Incognito]

Question for the field: Is it plausible to believe that only scum lie? Is LAL a good policy to actually abide by? Why or why not?

[Incognito]

Sammich, I think you should really respond to XReyoX's questions. He's only been repeating them for the past... fifty or so posts.

The reason why I ask about LAL is because I just can't think of any potential benefit Sammich could get out of lying about dice rolling and voting for himself if he were scum. I mean think about it: If Sammich is scum, would he potentially gain something by lying about rolling real life dice to end up voting for himself on page 1? Near's case against Sammich seems to mainly focus on the fact that Sammich may have lied about rolling dice but presents as an aside the other evidence that could be MORE indicative of Sammich being scum; the fact that he vouched for Mafiaplayer. Even the fact that Sammich has been avoiding XReyoX's questions seems like a better argument to be made here but Near chooses to push the minor offense instead. I don't even know what to make of this.... Sammich seems scummy for avoiding XReyoX's questions and vouching for Mafiaplayer but Near seems scummy for his initial vote-hopping and pushing of this more minor case. I'll stick with my Near vote for now.

FTR, this dice debate is useless.

Lowell, do you care to comment on anything else in the game? I really hate these kinds of comments that criticize current happenings but do nothing to move us away from that kind of discussion.

[Incognito]

Errr... L-1 already? I'd like to hear more from Ripley and others before placing him this close to lynch. No need to be hasty.

Unvote

[Incognito]

OK, first welcome to the game, Ripley. Good to play in a game with you again. =)

Many recent criticisms of Near sounded a bit contrived[...]

Which criticisms in particular did you feel sounded contrived?

[Incognito]

There were the comments made by Imat in Post 177 and you yourself in Post 176 (I talked about this already in Post 244.)

For what it's worth, Post 176 wasn't contrived criticism - it was an inconsistency that I noticed and felt the need to question Near about, especially since there were other things that I didn't exactly like about Near's play prior to that post. I need to read through the rest of the criticism you've cited to see if I get the same feeling from it that you do, and I'll try and post my feelings about more recent stuff later as well.

[Incognito]

What do you call a person who is not a scum but wins with a scum and whose wish is to be lynched in order to save scum?

What is the intention of this post?

I'd like to reserve my final judgement about Near until after Sammich gets back and Near finally gets to follow through with this:

It feels like Sammich is trying to let this "dice" incident die down by avoiding to answer my question until the investigation moves on to other things. I am not sure whether to just say what I want to say about Sammich or wait. We don't have a deadline yet, do we?

I still feel like the lying about dice rolling argument is a bit weak and doesn't actually equate to Sammich being scum; the vouching for Mafiaplayer and recent question avoidance does look pretty bad, however. Maybe once Sammich gets back Near could clarify his reasoning for the repeated questioning of Sammich's dice roll.

Lowell again: answer Reyo's post 320, plz? kthx.

[Incognito]

I want to know what that role is called. Someone answer me please.

I want to say a Jester but I'm pretty sure that's wrong.

But

if he lied about it, then he was contemplating how to cover up his lie. To come up with a detailed step by step recollection of what happened 11 days ago. Via the longest post he had written in this game. This is what I find suspicious, and I feel it is a worthy of a vote.

That's actually an extremely interesting point that I hadn't considered. Now you've got me

really

interested to read your continued questioning of Sammich when he returns.

[Incognito]

I believe Sammich is a jester.

I disagree with you on this. Sammich mentioned the following about Mafiaplayer very early on:

How come we're metagaming on page 2?
D:
Is mafiaplayer a jester.

This doesn't seem like the type of thing a player with the role of Jester would say. Also I think it's pretty rare for Jesters to exist in mini-normals and knowing destructor, I kinda doubt he would include one in this game.

[Incognito]

I pretty much agree with Y. These last 7 or 8 pages have completely focused on this back and forth between Near and Sammich about this dice rolling incident and even after all of this, Near's final conclusion is that Sammich is a Jester? Why expend so much time and energy asking so many questions about this damn dice roll if you're just gonna come to the conclusion that someone is a Jester?

I

want

Sammich to finally answer the questions that have been asked of him repeatedly before deciding on what to do with my vote. It's now a day past Friday, and I know it's the weekend but he should be back by now and the game is beginning to stall.

[Incognito]

The stumbling block with this line of thought is always "but why would Sammich, if he was scum, have vouched for MP"? (assuming MP to be town) and this has been going round in my head for a while.

If Sammich is scum, I can actually think of at least two reasons he may have vouched for MP. 1) He had the potential to earn pro-town creds by claiming to be the same vanilla townie as Mafiaplayer at a time that a number of people seemed to be buying into Mafiaplayer's claim. 2) He could have also been trying to buddy up to Mafiaplayer (although with Mafiaplayer's playstyle, I don't know what buddying up with him could have accomplished).

I also agree with you about the unlikeliness of a Sammich/Near connection.

Welcome aboard, Mizzy. It should be interesting to see a new player's take on the game so far.

@Reyo:

Who are you currently most suspicious of? It seems like you're most suspicious of Sammich but you're still voting for Mafiaplayer/Mizzy.

[Incognito]

Last time when there was a night start, sammich was scum. I’m wondering what he was referring to when he said he didn’t do too well.

About this, do you know which game it was specifically where he had a night start? I've read through that Sammich post and it doesn't look like he reveals whether or not he was town or scum; just that the game was a night start. I've also taken a little more time to look through his gaming history and couldn't find any evidence that would suggest that ANY of his games had night starts. I didn't bother looking before but I think now that I've looked and not found anything it's another noteworthy thing to add to the Sammich collection.

[Incognito]

This is the game

#643

The game was abondoned but in 643 and 644, his scumbuddies revealed that he was the remaining scum. I assume that Fonz and Jordan are telling the truth since they have no reasons to lie after the game had ended.

The more I read, the more I'm suspicious of sammich's attitude about the night start. I think this is something worth discussing.

Ah, I didn't bother looking at the mod-abandoned game. Thanks for the link. It sucks that Sammich is being replaced now though and won't be around to discuss the issues that have been brought up related to the night start.

[Incognito]

Ripley's post where he calls Near a "whipping boy" is exactly right. He's being blamed for a lot of stuff in this game. I still believe the dice-roll issue is not a huge one, but I buy his interest in it as genuine. And it is a bit alarming just how QUICKLY votes started to pile up on him when he broached the idea of sammich as jester. While I disagree w/ both the dice-roll-as-important logic as well as the sammich-as-jester theory, I can't fathom a situation when one scum would so openly reverse his case on another scum close to deadline on D1. And if sammich is town and Near is scum, the scenario makes even less sense.

Also about this, I disagree with yours and Ripley's take on Near as this so-called "whipping boy". Speaking for myself here, I personally felt like there were certain actions especially early on that were questionable coming from Near which I've elaborated on in my previous posts. I was open to giving Near the benefit of the doubt and allowing him to finish his Sammich investigation to see if it lead anywhere. When his conclusion about Sammich was that he may be a Jester, I felt like the whole investigation just seemed like a waste of time especially since a number of us mentioned our feelings about the dice rolling incident (his Jester conclusion now seems like it was a newb-tell though as opposed to a waste of time since he seemed to not know much about mini-game set-ups). Yes, I think it's a point in Near's favor that he does genuinely seem to have interest in figuring this whole thing out, and I found his 328 to be extremely enlightening but to call him a "whipping boy" seems like a bit of an exaggeration.

[Incognito]

Btw, I am curious as to what Soothsayer is?

Soothsayer isn't an actual mafia role. I think it's just like a fortune teller added as an NPC by destructor purely for flavor and nothing else.

He hung on to his case earlier, then someone said that he was too scared to leave it alone after his attack. He backed off afterwards then someone pointed out that he was wasting our time.

Reyo, I really dislike the above snippet from your Sammich post. Earlier on this page, you had the following to say to Y:

Y:

I see what you mean. If Near is scum he is probably clinging onto his case.

in which you agreed with him, but in your most recent post about Sammich (I know you haven't gone into Near yet) you seem to make comments like what I quoted above that imply that you don't want to get your hands dirty ("someone said he was too scared", "someone pointed out he was wasting our time"). But the thing is you had agreed with some of these comments about Near.

Why does it seem like you're borrowing from other people's ideas of players and agreeing with them but then brushing those ideas off as not your own?

[Incognito]

Y, Incognito:

Are you waiting for others to see how they would respond to the main bit (the sammich bit) before laying down your views? If you're to comment on it, I'd appreciate you to respond to the maybe more important ones, other than the ones at the beginning and at the end first.

No, your summary does a good job of condensing the issues that have been mentioned within thread about Sammich's play into one post. I just took issue with the beginning portion of it because I felt like you were trying to keep your hands clean. I'm more interested in seeing what Sammich's replacement, Niv, and Mafiaplayer's replacement, Mizzy, have to say about the game before finally putting all of the pieces together from Day 1 to come to a good conclusion about the correct play for today.

[Incognito]

Again Lowell, you have yet to answer my recent questions. I can easily see why Y FoSed you, you don't really explain your votes too well. I don't know if that is Scum trying to mislead Town or Town trying to keep their arguments to themselves, but I'd say you need to start doing a better job of explaining your votes.

I have to agree with Imat here. Lowell, you were really pushing hard on the idea of Imat being scum and now that Imat came at you with a number of questions, you've refused to answer those questions and you seem to have conveniently switched your vote from your main target to Niv for probably the most dubious reason of them all (his flaking out of the game). Can you elaborate on why Niv is more deserving of your vote than Imat at this point?

[Incognito]

Dammit. I'm due for a prod soon. More content later.

[Incognito]

Upon a quick reread, Lowell, I believe you missed a question of mine:

Can you elaborate on why Niv is more deserving of your vote than Imat at this point?

Mizzy, I know you're pregnant and due soon, but do you think you'll have a game summary for us sometime soon? Deadline's on the 11th, and I'd like to wrap up my final thoughts after receiving some input from you.

[Incognito]

Niv, if you're still around, I've got a question for you. You came into the game in a bit of a tight spot as suspicions began circling around Sammich's play. Obviously you can't respond on behalf of Sammich since you're not him but you've mentioned that you had player summaries typed up but somehow they got deleted when you tried to submit them to the site. Instead of making an attempt to retype them or maybe shortening the summaries to allow us to know your feelings about the game, you put together one post to vote for Near. My problem is as follows: The Near wagon was the largest wagon at the time and since you didn't really provide any other reads on anyone else, it looks like you've slid your vote onto a wagon of convenience under the guise that MS somehow "ate" your post that had your summaries. Can you please make an effort to somehow reprovide these summaries or at least a shortened version so we could understand where your suspicions lie? It looks really shady to me for you to pop into the game and slide onto the largest wagon without saying anything about anyone else.

[Incognito]

A few things I'd like to mention before we enter N1:

I found myself liking Mizzy's post 522 as it outlined pretty well the same kind of thinking that I had when ooba placed his vote on Niv. I'm bothered by the fact that Lowell had absolutely nothing negative to say about XReyoX here:

Xrey

I just get straight townie tells from. No other reason. He pushes the conversation, varies his attacks, and just looks town to me.

when I personally feel like XReyoX's late Day 1 play taints him a bit. I mentioned this previously in Post 445 and would have liked to pursue it further but then he replaced. And the fact that ooba entered the game and didn't even bother to comment on anything else related to the game besides citing his predecessor's argument against Sammich/Niv makes me think even more negatively about his play as well.

Another thing I disliked was Lowell's comment here where he tries to cast some suspicion towards the people not voting:

Though in other news, I'm about to grow verrry suspicious of those still not voting. The fact that there are so many makes me think we may have it narrowed down to a scum and a non-scum and some teammates are waiting to see what happens.

If he had actually read the thread, he would have realized that of the people not voting at that time, two were still fairly new to the game and one was on the verge of being replaced while I was waiting for the input from the newcomers. Also, I believe Y mentioned this previously but Lowell

has

been actively lurking and has seemed to be able to get away with under the cloud of suspicions that circled around both Near and Sammich throughout Day 1. It now seems rather convenient that he won't be available any time soon with the approaching deadline. I think a pretty good amount of information came out of Day 1 with respect to people's relationships with one another and in my opinion, a D2 hunt of both ooba and Lowell is important to town winning this game.

I've also reread the arguments against Sammich/Niv, and I feel like my thoughts are back to where they were near the beginning of the game where I felt like the Sammich dice roll incident was blown up into epic proportions. Lying about a dice roll isn't scummy and the argument really shouldn't have progressed as far as it should have since it was pushed along for fairly dubious reasons. I also dislike how Lowell tried to factor Sammich's flaking into the general equation of his scumminess. The fact that he hasn't made any posts on MS since he last posted here correlates more with real life issues taking predominance to the issues related to this game. In short, I'm more distrustful of the Niv wagon because of ooba's vote and Lowell's added involvement with it and wouldn't be surprised if they are connected to Near.

I've outlined my Near suspicions previously and while I was interested in seeing him pursue his case against Sammich to see if there was something more to it, that wasn't allowed to happen, and I can only form my thoughts around what I've been given already. It's pretty interesting to see a game so equally divided between two suspects. I still think Near is scum for reasons I've previously cited before I unvoted and with the deadline approaching I feel comfortable placing him at L-1.

Vote: Near

[Incognito]

I checked out XReyoX on night 0. Her gun was unloaded.

Urgh.

Unvote.

Any counterclaims? I thought a gunsmith only determines whether or not a person has a gun but above you seem to be mentioning that Reyo had a gun but it was unloaded? Also why didn't you bother to claim back when you were previously at L-1?

[Incognito]

I checked out XReyoX on night 0. Her gun was unloaded.

Any counterclaims?

I thought a gunsmith only determines whether or not a person has a gun but above you seem to be mentioning that Reyo had a gun but it was unloaded?

Also why didn't you bother to claim back when you were previously at L-1?

I actually asked the same question to destructor. She said that "Loaded" and "Unloaded" is for flavour and Loaded basically means the person I checked out has a gun, and "Unloaded" means no gun.

Okay. That's slightly different from what you just said here:

I checked out XReyoX on night 0.

Her gun was unloaded.

but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now until everyone checks in. The fact that we had a vigilante who died during N0 does seem to lend some support to your claim though.

[Incognito]

Maybe I didn't make myself perfectly clear before, so here it is again:

I AM NOT IN SUPPORT OF A NIV OR NEAR LYNCH AT THIS TIME.

Yep. It was pretty clear the first time too:

Mizzy, I know you're pregnant and due soon, but do you think you'll have a game summary for us sometime soon? Deadline's on the 11th, and I'd like to wrap up my final thoughts after receiving some input from you.

Well, honestly, it seems like it's coming down to whether we lynch Niv or Near. It doesn't matter much, or doesn't seem to, if I think someone else should be lynched, because the vote would pretty much be wasted.

I'm on leave now, but getting my major doctor appointments out of the way, so in a day or so, I'll be able to really hash out how I feel and why, but for now, suffice it to say that I am not fully comfortable with either a Near or Niv lynch. Which is why I haven't voted yet.

but I guess bold and caps does add some emphasis. ;p

[Incognito]

I claimed vanilla when i showed up didn't I, (so did sammich)

I've been trying to put ogether a post regarding near. all in all, it all seamed pointless and repetive. I basically just echo everyone elses sentiments, with great dislike in all of the dice talk. sorry i cant put in the ime to do something detailed, and even if i did, i just feel it would all be redundant.

Niv, did you in fact read the last few pages of the thread? Near just claimed Gunsmith.

[Incognito]

I was asking to make sure for myself, too, because of his odd choice of grammar here and there. I like knowing these things. Your grammar is pretty fluent with classic English slang, so I didn't ask you

While reading through Near's posts throughout the game, I never got the impression that English wasn't his first language. At one point he even used the word "hyperbole" which doesn't strike me as a word that would even be thought of by someone who was not very familiar with English. I don't think his slip can be disregarded as a null-tell as you seem to imply, however it would be foolish to lynch a claimed Gunsmith on D1. Either way, there's still at least one player who hasn't even checked in yet to possibly counterclaim. We can always test the claim tomorrow if necessary.

[Incognito]

I am not sure what slips you guys are talking about (Mizzy and Incognito). Are you doubting me because you think "Loaded/Unloaded" doesn't exactly fit the role of a gunsmith? If so, it's not my fault.

Or are you doubting me because I forgot to explain it in my first post when I claimed? But, that's what my pm says. I will receive results "Loaded" or "Unloaded".

No. The slip I'm referring to is here:

I checked out XReyoX on night 0. Her gun was unloaded.

In the post above, you mentioned that Reyo's gun was unloaded thereby implying that Reyo both had a gun AND it was unloaded. When I questioned you about it, you said the following:

I actually asked the same question to destructor. She said that "Loaded" and "Unloaded" is for flavour and Loaded basically means the person I checked out has a gun, and "Unloaded" means no gun.

Above you changed it around a bit to mean that Reyo did NOT have a gun and that's why he was unloaded. It's a very subtle difference but it could be a slip nevertheless.

In the absence of a counterclaim though, I see no reason to lynch you over it right now.

[Incognito]

Meh. I'll go with this:

Vote: Niv

If Near is still around at end-game though, I'd advise that he is not allowed to live. As gorckat already mentioned, Gunsmith is just too good of a claim for scum to make especially with the already dead vigilante.

[Incognito]

will self lynch Before Deadline. I am of the camp tat any ynch is a good lynch

This is not good posting. Or good playing.

I agree.

Niv, after this last post, you look either like scum attempting to limit information available in the thread

or

like lazy town who has just realized his fate. If it's the latter, you should feel obligated to help us find out who the scum is instead of just "I think Near is scum".

[Incognito]

and I find it tough to believe that anyone would put quite so much work into

pretending

to scum hunt, especially at a time when (as we now know) he had been trying to deal with RL issues at the same time.

A quick look at Reyo's posting history would reveal otherwise though. Since his departure from this game, he's been plenty active on site which actually makes me wonder a little more about these RL issues that he was dealing with.

And that was before Near came up with an innocent result on him.

Also, I think you're overlooking the fact that if Near

is

actually telling the truth about being a Gunsmith, his results don't always have to be 100% valid. The mod could have easily thrown in some investigation-immune Godfather or something along those lines to throw things off a little.

[Incognito]

Although, having said that last little bit, I just remembered that a Godfather died very early in the game as an NPC. I wonder if that correlates in any way with the set-up we have in this game.

[Incognito]

Also, I think you're overlooking the fact that if Near

is

actually telling the truth about being a Gunsmith, his results don't always have to be 100% valid. The mod could have easily thrown in some investigation-immune Godfather or something along those lines to throw things off a little.

I'd like to add that there is always the sanity flag for investigative roles...

In a mini game? I highly doubt that.

[Incognito]

I have to agree with Y on this one. Near, could you point to specific posts where Y has defended Sammich/Niv? I just filtered all of Y's posts, and I couldn't find any posts with out and out defenses of Sammich

or

Near.

[Incognito]

EBWOFP: That should be Sammich

or

Niv. Not Near.

[Incognito]

/thirded.

Near, you should probably just come forward with your results. I really don't see any reason for you to wait any longer.

[Incognito]

Near, from his meta, seems to do silly stuff like this as town, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment, but damn, that was some really stupid play right there.

Is there any meta available for Near as scum? I looked through his posting history and couldn't find any.

[Incognito]

I still think Y can be a godfather.

Near, what do you think of ooba? Why have you not suggested that ooba may have some scum role that is immune to your investigations? I thought ooba looked extremely scummy at the end of Day 1.

[Incognito]

I hate myself for this, but I still won't lynch Near.

I'll throw a

vote mizzy

out there for her seemingly over-the-top reactions to Near's ridiculousness.

Everything you mention in the above post directly contradicts each other. You mention that "you hate yourself because you won't lynch Near" and that Near's actions were "ridiculousness" but then you place a vote on Mizzy for her reactions to it when you yourself seem to imply that his actions make no sense?

That

makes absolutely no sense. Did you even consider the rest of Mizzy's play this game or even Mafiaplayer's early antics?

Vote: Lowell

I think Lowell is scum. Why? First of all, he's been actively lurking throughout the entire game. Y mentioned this previously here:

In the meanwhile, other players just let themselves lurk, either truly (MP, for example) or in plain sight (I'm looking at you, Lowell).

and I happen to agree with him. On a number of occasions within thread, Lowell has mentioned different things like the following:

FTR, this dice debate is useless.

Still here. Will post more when I get a chance. RL sneaking up on me.

Well look I'm one prod from being replaced already. I'm keeping my vote where it is.

in which he seems like he'll eventually follow these posts up with some actual, useful content but he continued to fail to deliver. I'm generally leery of people who just don't seem to lend themselves to the game and actually participate in it where they instead act like an MLB commentator providing thoughts about a game from the outside. If you isolate Lowell's posts from within this game, you'll notice that he's done the latter.

I also completely disliked his reason for voting for Niv (a person we now as town):

unvote, vote Niv

. I'm willing to build on this bandwagon, and I too think his quitting under pressure is major scum-tell. Usually townies don't quit under pressure, if for no other reason so they can post a posthumus "Bah, I told you!" post.

I've seen a number of occasions where townies have quit when placed under pressure and for him to mention that Niv's quitting was a scum tell seemed like just a weak reason for Lowell to hop onto a growing bandwagon without saying "yeah, I agree with the rest of you guys". He also made it a point to place his vote on before Niv ever even got a chance to place his thoughts into the thread

(yes, I know Niv never really shared his thoughts anyway)

.

I also really dislike how Lowell quickly shifted to the small Y bandwagon before the deadline was coming to a close. To me, it seems almost as if Lowell

knew

that Niv-town would appear as town upon lynching, and he abandoned that Niv-wagon in an effort to keep his hands clean. Couple that with his recent actions and bingo, I think Lowell is scum who's been receiving a free pass all game.

[Incognito]

I don't get it. Why should we have to ask nicely? If you were town, you should feel obligated to provide as much information as you can without us having to beg it out of you.

[Incognito]

Anyone has any conclusions about Near's scum-play?
The only reason I'm not voting for him ATM is that he might be a really bad townie (And no one claimed a cop-ish like role).

I've actually been thinking about Near a bit more, and there's a few things I'm puzzled about. First of all, if Near really is the Gunsmith, I can understand why the scum may have opted to not choose him as the NK in that they may have feared that he could be the target of Doctor protection. The thing that puzzles me though is if we believe the opening flavor text is indicative of anything for the scum (i.e. the scum probably don't have a Godfather), then what other kinds of scum roles could there be? The only scum roles I could think of are Goons and Roleblockers. If the scum don't have a Godfather, wouldn't they likely have a Roleblocker to counteract the actions of pro-town power roles? And if that was the case, why was Near able to investigate someone last night? Unless of course the scum consists soley of Goons, which I'd find hard to believe.

The more I think about Near's claim, the less I buy it especially coupled with his Day 1 play and now his even stranger Day 2 play. I could definitely go for a Lowell or Near lynch today.

[Incognito]

@Mizzy:

I'm not sure I agree with your recent interpretation. In my opinion, the fact that Near wasn't roleblocked is indicative of one of two things:

1) Near is lying scum or

2) If Near isn't scum, then the scum don't have a roleblocker and instead have a role like a Traitor or something along those lines like you indicated above. If Near is telling the truth, it would be in the scum's best interest to roleblock Near anyway since they would know that he's telling the truth even if they knew Near would be investigating someone whom they knew to be town. That would allow for even more doubt and confusion than what currently exists in this game.

A lot of this is getting WIFOMy, but I just figured I'd bring it up in the first place to get my thoughts in place about what type of scum roles we may be up against or if Near himself is scum.

Your other points in 681 I do agree with though.

[Incognito]

1)

vote incognito

. 533 and 537 look bad to me. He accuses me, but votes Near. Then he promptly unvotes after the claim. Both look like he's trying to play it safe.

I had outlined my Near suspicions long before 533 and even voted him long before that as well. In fact, I had unvoted Near back in Post 256 after Mafiaplayer hastily placed him at L-1 when we hadn't even heard a word from our replacements. Post 533 was essentially my revote of the person I found scummiest all game. Obviously I'm gonna unvote after a Gunsmith claim while I waited for a counterclaim and in the absence of one, I saw no reason to lynch Near during D1. Your current OMGUS vote of me is noted though.

[Incognito]

Imat, did you ever find this:

I've kept Lowell in the back of my mind all game, I think it had something to do with the way he vote hopped, though that may have been Near. But I'm pretty sure I had something on Lowell that I filed away for later use. I'll find that and come back with it later today.

[Incognito]

/prodded.

Sorry guys. Been busy and neglecting all my games. I'll try to catch up very, very soon.

[Incognito]

Read over all of the recent stuff, and I still like my vote on Lowell. In addition to the stuff I mentioned in my previous posts about Lowell, his Day 2 play has seemed bizarre as well. I don't even think he

realizes

that his vote on me didn't even count as he barely seems to be paying much attention to the thread. I mentioned previously that Lowell seems to be approaching this game like an MLB commentator rather than an actual player in it. He has consistently summarized the thread in his post by post discussions but doesn't seem to be doing much with the conclusions he draws from his analyses. He seems to be hopping from vote to vote trying to find one that will actually catch some wind and casually sliding off when his vote fails to do so. My vote stands.

Lowell/Incognito scum pairing - discuss.

Will post my case in the evening..

Word?

This should be interesting.

[Incognito]

Lowell, whatever happened to your Day 1 Imat suspicions? Did they just evaporate?

[Incognito]

Lowell, whatever happened to your Day 1 Imat suspicions? Did they just evaporate?

Nah I've always liked Imat as scum. If I recall I brought it up and was shot down repeatedly.

If your question is: would I vote to lynch him? then the answer is yes.

No, my question was exactly what was written. It was pretty much a sarcastic comment as it's really hard to tell who you're actually suspicious of with your constant flip-flopping. And I certainly don't remember you getting shot down repeatedly. You seemed to just place your vote on Imat, and then about one or two posts later you flipped to Niv. And ever since that moment, you never seemed to mention him again.

[Incognito]

@ooba:

I really don't know how to respond to your case without getting all WIFOM-y. I still think Lowell is scum, and I won't be moving my vote. If he is today's lynch and does turn up scum, then I'll try to respond to your case tomorrow if I'm still around and if people believe your case enough to place the pressure on me to do so. As of right now though, I'm trying to help town find scum, and I feel like I've done so with Lowell.

I'd rather lynch one of the guys who've been lurking. Imat or Incognito. I dunno which one yet, I will do a re-read.

When have I lurked?

[Incognito]

When have I lurked?

I think he's referring to the need to have you prodded, no?

I guess? That was like one prod though at a time that I wasn't posting anywhere on site. It just seems odd to say that

I've

been lurking when there's like three people in this game (Near included) who are on the brink of being replaced due to inactivity issues.

[Incognito]

I would like to put Lowell at -1L to get a claim from him and add some heat under his butt. Anyone have a problem with that before I do it?

Please do. That's freakin' twice now that he's supposedly had somewhere to go in the midst of a deadline.

[Incognito]

Um, Near already investigated Y and he already came up innocent.

I know. I don't really know how to answer this except to say I don't think you can have understood my post - which covers Near's result on Y -properly.

Perhaps I didn't but it seemed to be future-tense, not present-tense. That's why I posted what I did.

Yeah, I think you are misreading the post. Ripley can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the beginning portion of Ripley's post is discussing things from the first-person perspective of Y during Day 1 around the time of the Near claim if we assume that Y is actually scum with some kind of investigation immune ability. I think that's why the beginning portion of Ripley's post sounds like it's in the future tense, i.e. it's what a Y-scum may have been thinking when Near revealed himself to be a Gunsmith.

Final thought: the Near we have now is almost unrecognizable from the player he was for most of the game.

QFT. I was thinking the exact same thing. Near seemed to be actively pursuing that Sammich/Niv case during Day 1 completely to the point of exhaustion. Day 2 has revealed a completely different Near - he seems to be lying much lower inserting his two cents here and there while not giving us that same high level of participation that we saw from D1 Near.

[Incognito]

Welcome back, jerubbaal!

I meant: Scum can say 'no gun' about someone who is not on their side.

I'm having a really hard time understanding what you're talking about. Can you clarify?

[Incognito]

I'm having a hard time figuring how two people aren't getting what I'm saying-

If you doubt Near's claim and want to test it...lynching someone he cleared doesn't do it. If he's scum, he can sit there and 'clear' people all game, tossing a partner out as needed to cement his place.

1) The vig is dead
2) Near claimed Gunsmith
3) Nearscum knows who does and does not have a gun

Doubts about Near shouldn't be directed at anyone other than Near.

Gotcha. When you said "scum could say 'no gun' too", it wasn't clear to me that you were referring to Near as the scum.

I'll be in Chicago for my girlfriend's graduation from Thurs night to Sat afternoon, so I'll be happy to hammer Lowell Sat night if we haven't had a counterclaim yet.

You're actually voting for Lowell right now since you replaced Imat.

[Incognito]

Interesting doctor claim. Does anyone have any counterclaims? gorckat, who did you protect Night 0?

I think the mass-claim that jerubbaal suggested is probably the ideal play in this situation. The only time I've been part of a mass claim was back in Portal Mafia and that order was determined randomly. I think that type of ordering actually worked out pretty well, and I wouldn't mind using that here as well.

[Incognito]

I'm a townsperson.

Next up?

[Incognito]

Okay so now that we're all good and role claimed I'll be doing a targeted reread to see if anything stands out to me. A few things I wanted to respond to though.

First I've noticed that both ooba and jerubbaal have cast doubts on there being a Godfather in this game. I still strongly believe that there is likely some kind of scum role, whether it be a Godfather or something else, that MUST exist in this game to cause some kind of confusion with Near's results. Now that gorckat has claimed Doctor, I highly, highly, highly doubt that the mod would make this game as simple as a boring Cop/Doc follow-the-cop kind of game. He's obviously put a lot of work into the flavor text and probably into the set-up itself that it just wouldn't make sense to me for him to turn this into a non-thinking game. So yeah, while I'll be keeping ooba and Y somewhat in the back of my mind during the reread, I won't completely keep them both out of the picture.

Also about this:

The scum team being Ripley, Mizzy, and Incog does confuse me, although when Mizzy claimed for the second time, she did claim vanilla townie, which isn't how the PM is phrased. I guess that means I was wrong about MP actually reading the first post.

I really don't like how you're setting this up so simply as these three absolutely must be scum while discounting the Godfather possibility. I also noticed that you mentioned having a problem with Mizzy calling herself a Vanilla Townie. Does it bother you that Ripley said the same thing about himself? Why did you not mention anything about that?

I'll definitely have more later once I'm done reading through all of this.

[Incognito]

Wow, this was an easier reread than I thought. Ripley and Imat/jerubbaal are totally scum with one another.

First, let's have a look at Imat (who may I remind you, jerubbaal subbed in for). I've just looked at his posts in isolation and talk about flying under the radar! Imat had a grand total of (drum roll please!!) 43 posts with most of his content containing mostly filler. Imat was doing what we call in the business good ol' active lurking. The most telling areas of the thread are as follows:

First have a look at his contribution, or actually lack of contribution around the time of the Niv lynch. Imat posted on the 3rd of April on page 21 and mysteriously vanished from the thread all the way up to the 10th of April on page 26 when the Niv lynch solidified. There's no telling how he would have reacted to Near's Gunsmith claim or the mounting Niv wagon because it seems like he made it a point to completely remain clear of the thread during the time period. I remember a number of times during Day 2 where Ripley actually gave Y a lot of heat for not abiding by the rules and following the mod's policy of unvoting and voting to hammer Niv but mentioned absolutely nothing about Imat who had gone conspicuously absent. And I mean why would he give Imat some heat? Nobody was coming down on Imat very hard all game... if Ripley and Imat/jerubbaal are scum together he probably felt no need to distance or bus him at that point since Imat remained completely under the radar. Newb scum have a tendency to lurk and vanish around deadlines while leaving their votes lingering in the hopes that

some

kind of lynch occurs on a townie. Imat completely fits that description.

Then there was Day 2. Oh wow, Imat's suddenly back! How coincidental. The most telling piece of information about Imat's alignment came around the time that I outlined my case against Lowell. I outlined my case here: Post 673 and here was Imat's response:

I've kept Lowell in the back of my mind all game, I think it had something to do with the way he vote hopped, though that may have been Near. But I'm pretty sure I had something on Lowell that I filed away for later use. I'll find that and come back with it later today.

At the time that I read this, I remember thinking of an Imat/Lowell scum team since the above post read to me as the type of post Lowell's scum partner might have made around the time he wasn't ready to bus him. Now that we know that Lowell was actually town, the above post reads even worse to me. He promises that he'll fill us all in with his Lowell information later that day (April 17th) but then doesn't do so until I

asked

him for it on the 23rd here: Post 717. He then followed up my 717 with the following:

Ok, some more thoughts on Near and an answer to Incognito's question: First, Incognito: Yes, I found it. If you search the 20 or so posts behind 461 by Lowell you'll find his "case" against me. In 461, Lowell changes votes to Niv with little to no support. If you look past 465, my third post asking him to explain his case against me, he says pretty much nothing. Lowell has formed bogus cases and completely lurked all game. When questioned about his cases he reverts back to his lurking self, hoping to wait out the questions. So far he has been able to do so.

Vote: Lowell

So after promising this grand content a week before this was the best he could come up with? And he had to wait until

after

I asked him to provide this content just to do so. Also I should note that by this time Y had already placed a vote on Lowell so from Imat-scum's point of view, he may have felt under very little pressure to place the vote at that point since he saw that two people were already voting for Lowell-town already. Then after that post I'm actually going page by page trying to find Imat's very next post and

that

doesn't come until Page 32 where again, he doesn't comment on anything that had happened as of that time and instead tries to make it seem like he had been pushing this grand case against Lowell here:

Mizzy: I've made my case several times, if thats what you'e asking. If you want quotes/examples, I've somewhat left it to you to find them.

Really? You made your case several times? I just displayed above how I had to basically beg something out of him and he attempts to hinge himself onto my case instead of doing any form of grunt work to show why he thought Lowell was scum. Then of course he eventually asks for replacement due to RL issues, and we end up with jerubbaal.

Jerubbaal's play so far has bothered me as well. He entered the thread upon replacing and mentioned the following about all of the players within the game:

I'd be happy lynching Lowell, if there's not a counterclaim for Near. I have a fairly scummy read on him at this point. I'm leaning very town on Mizzy and Incog, can't deal with Y until we deal with Near. Middling reads on gorckat, Ripley, and ooba.

Notice how he mentions that he's leaning very town on both me and Mizzy and claims to have middle-of-the-road reads on everyone else. But then at the start of Day 3, we have this from jerubbaal:

Agree that the likelihood of a godfather is about nil, considering the balance.

The scum team being Ripley, Mizzy, and Incog does confuse me, although when Mizzy claimed for the second time, she did claim vanilla townie, which isn't how the PM is phrased. I guess that means I was wrong about MP actually reading the first post.

We have four unconfirmeds and three mafia. It's easy for me, because I know I'm a townsperson, but it's basically riding on the confirmeds at this point.

I think Ripley's the clear scum, so we should lynch him first without a lot of question. Incog's play has been good, but I don't find anything that sways me any particular way. Mizzy being scum is a surprise, but I'm going to go back and read her stuff with a different mindset (I was thoroughly convinced she was town) and see if I find anything anomalous to make this decision easier.

So my play has been good but you don't see anything that sways you one way or another? Why are you backtracking now when during Day 2 you labeled me as "very town"? He basically did the same thing with Mizzy until recently where he mentions the following:

For the moment, I'm not going to deal with the case against you, because I still think you sound like town, I just absolutely can't justify there being a GF in this scenario as well as a miller. If that's the case we're playing a 12 person game with a night-0 kill and a heavily nerfed cop. The balance would favor scum pretty heavily.

Regardless, you're on the bottom of my list for the three scum. I need to do some meta on you, because if you're acting, it's really convincing. Ripley and Incog can be dealt with first.

So again you're completely changing your mind and attempting to label Mizzy as town again? jerubbaal's play looks desperate. He looks like he's trying very hard to solidify a scum win for himself but is realizing the dilemma he has. His case against Mizzy and me has been "while their play has been good and seemingly pro-town, they must be scum because I, jerubbaal, am a townsperson and all of the rest of the unconfirmeds must be scum!" which of course is no case at all. And since I

know

my own alignment to be town and have been reading Mizzy as fairly town all game, I wouldn't be surprised if jerubbaal was trying desperately to win the game by setting up two possible mislynches on pro-town players. I feel like he's trying to push a lynch on Ripley, his probable scum partner, to gain some pro-town credentials for tomorrow before dropping the hammer on either me or Mizzy.

This post got kind of long but I'll cover Ripley in a later post and cover who I think is likely to be the third partner also.

[Incognito]

@jerubbaal:

Obviously it's anti-town to push a case against a pro-town player but as a normal townie, I can only do so much that I can with what I have within thread. I can probably cite countless examples of instances where a pro-town player led the charge against another pro-town player only to learn that the player in question was town. For you to use that as a tell against me seems like a huge reach. I presented a case against a player who I thought was likely to be scum and waited for a response from him. I felt like his response did nothing to convince me that he was actually town and so I continued to pursue the case. It's cute how you try to make it seem like I was single-handedly responsible for his lynch when it took four other people to lynch him with one of them being your predecessor. If we assume a three scum set-up, then at least one of those additional players responsible for his lynch had to be town.

---

Anyway, here's the promised post on Ripley. I've actually played with Ripley previously in Newbie 516, which was one of my first games on site. We were both Townies in that game so I feel like I have a decent feel for what to look for coming from Ripley-town. Y mentioned that he's voting for Ripley because "he always seems to know better" than everyone else. I don't really view that as much of a tell for Ripley since I got the same impression from him in 516 also. A lot of the comments he made within that game seemed too perfect, too precise, and when that game was deadlined, by the end of Day 1, I wasn't too sure of my town read on him even though he and I shared the same viewpoints with respect to our suspicions. He had a tendency to refrain from voting, and the overall feel I got from him was that his play was extremely cautious. Like I said, he ended up being town there. The one difference that I did notice about Ripley there and here though is I never really felt like I

knew

with absolute certainty who Ripley was most suspicious of in this game, especially during Day 2, while in that Newbie game, it was pretty clear to me where Ripley's suspicions were.

During Day 1, it was pretty clear that Ripley was most suspicious of Sammich/Niv; while most people were focusing on Near, Ripley managed to move away from that discussion and instead he focused on the Sammich/Niv case which was, at that time, the minority opinion. Day 2 seemed to reveal a different side of Ripley. He voiced some concern over Near in this post, he then proceeded to voice some more concern about both Y and Lowell within the same post here: his 24th post, he maintained the majority of his focus on Y for a good remainder of the day, and he kept promising to review Lowell's past games to see if he has a tendency to switch votes often but he never seemed to actually get around to it. And since gorckat hammered Lowell well before the deadline, it never really was very clear who Ripley was most suspicious of since he never actually got a chance to vote. One thing that really bothered me about Ripley was a response to a question Near posed to him about me and Imat in which he responded with the following:

Incognito has become grouped with Imat in my mind as The Invisible I's, which probably isn't fair to either of them, but they do both seem to have the art of maintaining a low profile, while avoiding suspicion, down to perfection. You see yourself that in your last two player lists you could find nothing to say about either. And someone else, I think it was Lowell, did a list a while back that left off one or both of them.

To me it seems like he was making a very subtle attempt to link me with Imat here by classifying me as one of these so-called "Invisible I's" who don't receive enough attention. I find this strange since my case against Lowell was one of the primary focuses of Day 2 so to classify me as invisible seems like a bit of a misrepresentation. And since I strongly feel like Ripley and Imat are likely scum with one another, I can't help but get the feeling that Ripley may have used my "invisibleness" as an eventual weapon against me

if

Imat was ever lynched and turned up as scum.

So in short, my experience playing with Ripley allows for that "seeming to know all" and seemingly cautious type of approach even when he's town, so I view that argument as a null tell. His Day 2 play in which he seemed to make an attempt to link me with Imat and completely ignored the fact that Imat, and not just Y, had the opportunity to hammer Niv while he also never solidified just who he found to be scummiest sets off alarm bells for me.

As for the final scum, I still strongly feel like there might just be a Godfather or some kind of investigation immune role within this game. The only other time that I've played with a Gunsmith role was back in Portal Mafia, a game that was a Day start but had the following set-up: Goon, Goon, Godfather (investigation immune), Vigilante, Pro-town Roleblocker, 5 townies,

and

a weak doctor who died if he protected someone who was scum but could otherwise protect pro-town players from NKs just like a regular doctor. I highly doubt that our night start makes that much of a difference to offset the chance of an investigation immune scum role. And within that game, there were actually two whole town-aligned protective roles in addition to a vig. IMO, our having a vig and a claimed doctor along with a Gunsmith seems like just enough to make the investigation immune scum role possibility fairly likely. Therefore, I feel like if gorckat is the doctor, then the last scum would probably be either ooba or Y. If someone makes a case against Mizzy, I'd gladly entertain it, but I'd be really surprised if Mizzy was the last scum. I'm leaning ooba over Y mainly because of certain notable interactions that I noticed between the two other people who I think are scum but right now, I think this is pretty much water under the bridge. At this point in time, I would gladly lend my vote to either a Ripley or jerubbaal lynch.

Blaaaaaah, I'm exhausted. Time for dinner. Again, sorry for the long post.

[Incognito]

Why don’t you check the records? Imat, a normally prolific poster who was in several other games, didn’t post anywhere on the site for six days from Sat April 5th to Fri April 11th – which covers the whole of the period of Near’s claim and the deadline – apart from one post on Weds 9th in a game that had finished while he was away. He informed the mod that he had limted access until Friday and did indeed resume normal posting on the Friday. You seem to be suggesting I was favoring Imat by not accusing him of faking almost a week’s absence from all his games in order to avoid a deadline in one game, and I think that’s simply ridiculous.

It's not

that

ridiculous. I've faked an absence from all of my games before when I was scum in one of them, and I'm sure other players have too. Further, if he did actually inform the mod of that other game about his inability to post I feel like he could have done the same thing here.

Actually if anything it was the Day 1 Ripley that was the anomaly; I’ve rarely been as confident of a D1 lynch as I was about Sammich/Niv. Day 2 was much more like how I usually am. I rarely vote, I’m very cautious, I think aloud, I’m uncertain of my conclusions, all of which is intolerable to the kind of hyperconfident player who always knows they’re right, and that their playstyle is the only acceptable playstyle, and who will with an inevitable predictability demand that I be lynched for being wishy-washy and not naming scum or reaching firm conclusions at the point in the game that they, personally, insist that I should, and I’ve been through all of this so often I’m slouching with boredom just thinking about it.

I'm familiar with your playstyle, and I realize that you usually pick up a lot of flak because of it even when you're town. Either way, I still feel like you seemed fairly confident about a D1 Crub-lynch in 516 so I don't think it's as much of an anomaly as you're saying it is. I suppose it's possible that your playstyle could evolve during D2 and beyond.

[Incognito]

Woooo, I'm due for a prod soon. I've been busy setting up my own mini-game so this is just a quick post to let you all know I'm still here. I'll be posting more tomorrow, hopefully.

[Incognito]

Mizzy, if that's the case, who do you think is scum? You haven't really taken a stance on anyone this whole day.

[Incognito]

I agree some more input from Mizzy would be useful – and she’s not the only one - but it’s more than a week since you posted any content yourself. At that time you were trying to paint me and jerubbaal as a scum team with Y or ooba as a third. How’s that theory coming along? I’m starting to wonder if you’ve been watching, and figuring you can probably save your own skin today by lying low and letting other people slug it out.

Yes, it's been more than a week since I've provided content, but I really have nothing more to say. I've already made my case(s) by citing specific examples from within thread and meta-analysis and have pretty much been waiting for ooba, Y, Mizzy... anyone to chime in with their completed re-reads which they've all mentioned have been in the works for quite some time now.

Why are you voting Mizzy, Y?

If there's too much contention on the Ripley/me scenario, we could certainly just go and lynch Incog today. He's scum, and he's pretty much ducked out recently once the Ripley/me thing started going. We are running very short on time and I don't think we're going to get any real resolution before the deadline. No-lynching is absolutely and completely unacceptable at this point, we need to lynch someone.

Vote: Incognito

It's cute how you've mentioned numerous times now that you'd be willing to lynch any one of me, Ripley, and Mizzy but have now chosen to vote for

me

of the three

and

questioned Y about why he's voting for Mizzy. Here's how things look from my perspective: Jerubbaal has just chosen to vote for me when a vote has already been cast on Mizzy-alignment unknown. I think jerubbaal is scum and now he seems to be purposefully choosing to vote for me rather than anyone else despite the fact that he's mentioned that he has no preference? Does he

really

not have a preference when a vote has already been cast in Mizzy's direction, thus making his job of lynching

any

of us easier? It doesn't seem that way to me. I'm pretty much ready to cast my vote on jerubbaal at this point.

P.S. Funnier still is how jerubbaal labeled my increased frequency of posting as "scummy" earlier but now that I've been relatively quiet, he's labeled

that

as scummy too. This all pretty much goes along with that level of desperation that I mentioned earlier with respect to jerubbaal's play; he seems to be pretty much grabbing at anything to try and paint anyone in a negative light.

[Incognito]

One other thing. About this:

Incognito:

Lurker vibes and confident scum vibes from him, but I have been watching him for a while. I don't remember anything blatantly scummy from him (I'd have to reread him) but I do remember some latent and unyielding suspicion of him for a long time.

This whole "lurking" issue had been covered before by Near and you actually

commented

about it before in the following:

When have I lurked?

I think he's referring to the need to have you prodded, no?

I guess? That was like one prod though at a time that I wasn't posting anywhere on site. It just seems odd to say that

I've

been lurking when there's like three people in this game (Near included) who are on the brink of being replaced due to inactivity issues.

Yeah, I didn't say he was being smart about it We need him to post more, methinks.

Why are you suddenly changing your opinion about it and mentioning that you've been receiving "lurker vibes and confident scum vibes" all game coming from me? WHEEEEEEEEEEE after these last few posts from Mizzy and jerub maybe this game really is as simple as a jerubbaal, Mizzy, and Ripley scum team and maybe there really

isn't

some investigation immune godfather like I suspected.

[Incognito]

Because I mean, by golly, you didn't actually give an opinion about anyone all day until I lyk... ttly asked you for it.

[Incognito]

Oh, right, you keep ignoring that because it's easy to do so.

No, I didn't ignore it here nor there. Here I was pointing out an inconsistency in what you were saying now and what you've said previously in-thread. There I mentioned it again because Elmo had a question for me in that game while he was wrapping up his read of the thread. Anyway, it's stupid to reference ongoing games the way you are. Good try though.

[Incognito]

Okay, now that ooba is finally all good and caught up, here's the way things look to me right now.

First of all, jerubbaal is so fucking obviously scum. If you can't see that by now, you seriously need either your eyes checked or your head checked. I've already outlined my case against Imat/jerubbaal here:

Post 892.

And I happen to agree with ooba's analysis of Imat in the following:

Imat
Imat more on Near in 123 , 177 , Sammich in 205. Infact Imat's entire attack has been on Near,Sammich and Lowell - indicative of newbie scum.

Imat's play was so textbook Newbie scum it's scary. Since that time, jerubbaal has done nothing to convince me otherwise. Look at the amount of times that he's switched positions during Day 3. He's been like a damn sailboat trying to catch whichever way the wind has been blowing. He started off by mentioning that Ripley, Incog, and Mizzy are the three scum. Then he immediately withdrew that statement and said that Mizzy actually seems more town to him. On a number of occasions thus far today, jerubbaal has appealed to the "confirmed innocents" to finally produce their reads. And now that ooba has presented the possibility of a Traitor and has suggested that he believes that Y could be that Traitor, jerubbaal has again switched stances and agreed with ooba citing Y is likely the Traitor and Mizzy is most definitely town? Like for serious?

jerubbaal's appeals to the confirmed innocents remind me very distinctly of another game I was in in which I was a confirmed pro-town Mason and one of the scums constantly mentioned that he wanted to hear my opinions because "I was the only one he trusted". If anyone would like for me to link to that game, I'd gladly try and find the exact location that the scum mentioned that within thread. Jerubbaal has done that a number of times during Day 3 to the point that it's nauseating.

Then there was this from gorckat:

Incognito's calling out on Mizzy looks like it could be scum calling out a partner to get on board with pushing Ripley so they can win today.

I still feel most comfortable lynching jerubbaal out of the four of them.

followed by this from jerubbaal:

Why are you voting Mizzy, Y?

If there's too much contention on the Ripley/me scenario, we could certainly just go and lynch Incog today. He's scum, and he's pretty much ducked out recently once the Ripley/me thing started going. We are running very short on time and I don't think we're going to get any real resolution before the deadline. No-lynching is absolutely and completely unacceptable at this point, we need to lynch someone.

Vote: Incognito

in which he actually casts his

first

vote of the day which happens to be against me. I don't think it's a coincidence that jerubbaal cast this vote

directly

after gorckat mentioned his comment about me and Mizzy. To me, it looks like jerubbaal finally caught scent of which way the votes might be going and despite the fact that he mentioned previously that he'd be fine with a Ripley, Mizzy, or Incog lynch and the fact that Mizzy

already had

a vote against her, he voted for me despite the fact that I remained voteless at that point. So yeah, I think it's pretty damn obvious that jerubbaal definitely has a preferred order to whom he'd like to see lynched. And since I know I'm town, his vote on me looks

extremely

opportunistic.

Then there's Mizzy directly after jerubbaal's vote on me and only after I

asked

her to produce reads on people since she had yet to take a stance all day:

In short, I would be most in favor of an Incognito lynch today.

She mentions that she would be most in favor of my lynch after summarizing her thoughts about me in this short paragraph:

Incognito:

Lurker vibes and confident scum vibes from him, but I have been watching him for a while. I don't remember anything blatantly scummy from him (I'd have to reread him) but I do remember some latent and unyielding suspicion of him for a long time.

Her read of me is completely wishy-washy and after reading that, I certainly wouldn't be able to tell whether she's leaning town, scum, Chinese, Japanese, Korean... hell, anything on me. I certainly wouldn't be able to tell that she's most in favor of lynching me. To me, it looks like she

knows

that I'm town and simply can't do a good job of painting me to look scummy because (DEEP BREATH) I'm pro-town and she knows it. And I think Y brought up a fair point by mentioning that Mizzy really hasn't done much all game and has continuously made excuses for why she can't do so. Yes, obviously after having a baby I could imagine things being difficult but really by page 38 of the thread you shouldn't be producing the kinds of reads that she's provided. Further, there's the contradiction that I mentioned earlier in my Post 946 that just screams opportunism.

I've also already mentioned my thoughts about Ripley previously in Post 895. I think I'm the only person in this game who's actually played a game with him previously. While his Day 1 play reminded me very closely of his Day 1 play that I noticed from him in Newbie 516 in which he was town, his Day 2 play did seem drastically different from his Day 1 play to me in this game. I've already mentioned previously though that I really have nothing to compare that type of play to since Ripley replaced out of that game before Day 2 began. However the fact that Ripley had a vote placed on him by Y and jerubbaal still failed to cast his vote on him even after expressing that he'd be comfortable with lynching any three of me, Ripley, or Mizzy but yet still didn't cast his vote, I'd bet that he's scum with Mizzy and jerubbaal.

At this point, I'd be most comfortable with a jerubbaal lynch since he looks like the most obvious scum to me. ooba's analysis of the game makes me feel somewhat better of his alignment since he actually took the time to read through the game and create genuine reads of people so if there is actually a Traitor in this game, I'm less inclined to believe that he has that role. I'm still not too sure about Y though. His play has seemed fairly scummy at times but his actions around the Near-wagon seem more town to me than scum at this point. I don't think scum would be that blatantly anti-town around a deadline and instead, I think he felt like he had an honest-to-God scum read on Near and couldn't believe Near's claim since a Gunsmith is a rather rare role.

[Incognito]

Actually, that deadline extension isn't even needed. Both jerubbaal and Mizzy have already outed themselves as scum. It's time I played the ace card.

Both jerubbaal and Mizzy have seemed to come to this "tacit" agreement that the scum team is likely to be me, Ripley, and Y and that I would be the best lynch for the day. Mizzy's even gone as far as to say that Y is using his "confirmed innocent" status to recklessly vote for her (a so-called "townie")

and

mentioned that jerubbaal is likely to be town, all in one breath. Really, Mizzy? If anything, the fact that Y hasn't voted for jerubbaal yet

when he already has a vote on him

is actually indicative of one of the following:

• Either Y is scum with both
  you
  and jerubbaal, and he's waiting for someone to place a vote on me before changing his vote to me or
  
  
• Y is town who isn't completely sold on his read of jerubbaal

Jerubbaal already

has

a vote placed on him by gorckat who's already mentioned over and over again that he is most in favor of a jerubbaal lynch. So why would Y just not vote for jerubbaal then if jerubbaal really was town and Y was scum and Ripley and me were his scum buddies? Rhetorical question.

You're scum, jerubbaal is also scum, and either Ripley or Y is the third scum. Check and mate. I'm pretty much ready to vote for either one of jerubbaal or Mizzy.

[Incognito]

Let me see if I'm understanding. Your ace card is that Y

isn't

voting me? Basically you're asserting that, if I were town are Y were scum, I would be quicklynched by now. Scum can't execute a quicklynch from 1 to 4 without being obscenely obvious about it. I've actually been hoping someone would try it and shoot themselves in the foot, but no one has. Just look at the logic of this argument, it doesn't hold together at all. You're trying to sell a really sketchy interpretation as an absolute sure thing (ace card), which is really, really scummy.

Incognito - Strikes me as the most pro town of the bunch. His theory about scum quick lynching are wrong though - why would they ever risk it?

Guys, where did I mention anything about a quick lynch? In case I didn't make myself clear the first time, here was what I was getting at.

Mizzy said the following about Y:

Oops, sorry!

I feel Y is actually the godfather/traitor/whatever due to his play this whole friggin' game. Especially after his vote on me, which feels like he's trying to use his "confirmed" townie status to kill me.

and she also mentioned the following about jerubbaal:

jerubbaal2:

I think he's probably townie trying to secure a town win. I just think he's a little too confident in his own theories, which are incorrect ,as far as my alignment goes.

In essence, Mizzy stated that she felt Y was scum voting for her under the veil of this "confirmed townie" status in order to kill her (a claimed townie). But that logic makes no sense. If Y was actually scum attempting to kill someone under the veil of this "confirmed townie" status and if Mizzy

truly

felt like jerubbaal was town, wouldn't he just vote for jerubbaal, the person who already had one vote on him from gorckat? To me it looks like Mizzy knows jerubbaal's true alignment to be scum and simply couldn't see how gorckat's vote on jerubbaal-scum (a person she claimed to have a town read on) might have looked to a

true

townsperson. This is why I mentioned that jerubbaal and Mizzy pretty much outed themselves already by claiming that Y, me, and Ripley are the scum team. My post 971 had absolutely nothing to do with a quick lynch.

You're scum, jerubbaal is also scum, and either Ripley or Y is the third scum. Check and mate. I'm pretty much ready to vote for either one of jerubbaal or Mizzy.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that costs town their games. News flash: You are not psychic and you are not all-knowing. Get over yourself. And get off your ass and vote, too, would you? Or are you too afraid to have two scum on me before a townie hops on?

I still think jerubbaal is the best bet, with Mizzy at his side. I think either Incog is the third scum (my earlier thoughts on him poking at Mizzy), or Y if there is a triator/GF role. Both of them fit.

So basically you're okay with just about any lynch as long as it's not you?

I'm leaning towards a Gorckat/Incognito pair at the very least, now, with Y bringing up the rear.

Let's test the waters.

Vote: Gorckat

.

Now we have 1 vote on 4 different people, meaning that a lynch is only possible if the remaining 3 people all team up on one person or someone needs to switch. The remaining non-voters can't all be scum because otherwise, they'd have won already, so this is a pretty safe thing to do and might give us a good amount of information.

Mizzy, this whole entire post makes absolute zero sense. The first portion of your post only makes sense if you believe me to be town. The second portion where you propose a gorckat/Incog scum team only works if you believe me to be scum. Still can't decide whether to buddy up to me or label me as scummy, eh? And instead of voting for the person whom you'd be "most in favor of lynching" (me), you vote for the un-counterclaimed doctor after mentioning the following about him:

gorckat:

I am having trouble looking past his failure to save our cop, and yet at the same time, I can see why Near was seen as scummy and I question his sanity (Near's.) What should have been done was have the doc protect him and have Near investigate himself, but we did not think of that or have the chance for it.

Pro-town reads, even through the overbearing self-confidence in his opinions.

Again, you've pretty much outed yourself as scum. I feel confident enough to go with this:

Vote: Mizzy

On the other hand, I feel a lot better about lynching Mizzy now. Voting for gorckat at this point is completely and entirely inappropriate. He's so confirmed it's silly. If we want to lynch Mizzy today, it's all good.

Still waiting for the last possible moment to bus your buddy? Don't worry. We'll get you tomorrow.

[Incognito]

First of all, good game everyone!

destructor, that was an awesome job at modding. I really, really, really loved the flavor text and the unconventional set-up along with your ability to find replacements on the fly. I was shocked at how many people replaced on Day 1 alone and then of course Imat eventually replaced as well. Despite all that, I felt like this game still ran smoothly and never really lulled at any point. You're pretty much the reason I signed up for this game in the first place because I knew it would be a treat.

First of all, I definitely like being town much better than being scum lol. There were so many moments in this game where I felt like something was gonna go horribly wrong. To answer this question:

Did they actually contemplate not killing anyone Night 0? the game would have been pretty hard for them if they had killed gorckat(or the cat herder at that time)

Kinda sorta. I was really, really nervous about submitting the N0 kill because of that risk. There was essentially a 1/10 chance of me hitting my own scum-buddy so before I submitted the kill, I kept previewing the choice over and over again before finally clicking submit. thephantom and I were initially considering NK-ing Lowell since he was the most experienced but changed our minds last minute and went with a random in avinashv. I think we definitely lucked out with that since that got rid of 1 of the 2 power roles the town had. It also rendered our sole power role (the Mafia Doctor) useless since the only Night threat to us was that vig. I think this game was fairly balanced, and I actually kinda felt like this game was balanced in favor of the

town

and not the scum. We as scum had two blind opportunities to kill our own team member in the Night 0 kill and the Day 1 lynch.

The Night 1 kill was tricky for us. I really, really, really wanted to kill Near for obvious reasons, and I thought there would be no way destructor would include a Doctor and a Cop in one game. It just didn't seem destructor-like to me. I suspected the town may have had a roleblocker but not a doctor. Nevertheless, that Doctor risk really weighed on our minds since if we attempted to NK him and failed, he would be cleared, XReyoX/ooba would likely be cleared, and his Night 1 investigation would be cleared (Y) unless we kept on trying to sell that investigation immune scum role idea. So instead, we decided that either Mizzy or jerubbaal had to go since they seemed somewhat unlynchable at that point.

Night 2 was tricky also. We thought of so many scenarios that could happen the next day if we failed to kill Near again but this time we just went with it. Luckily it went through, and we were left in the LyLo situation. During Day 3, I actually would have never expected that Mizzy would end up being the lynch; she seemed obvtown to me, and I thought the townies might have thought the same (apparently not). I thought jerubbaal/Imat was a more likely lynch candidate and after Y voted for Ripley, I seriously began considering bussing Ripley since it didn't seem like Y would remove his vote. Eventually he did, thankfully, and the bus didn't seem as necessary. It would have been really risky to bus him at that point though since explaining away gorckat's lack of being killed would have gotten trickier and trickier. Generally, I was shocked that the town bought the Doctor claim so readily. I know it fit with the meta and all, but after that quick-Lowell hammer I thought for sure that gorckat was toast. I wanted to kick the computer for gorckat hammering the way he did lol.

I'm not sure why Near didn't investigate night 2 and was really confused when the_cat_herder decided to protect Fat_Tony. It seems pretty clear that she didn't understand her role. I did try to clarify it for her, but didn't feel like I should be telling her how to use her night action. Both of these were inconsequential in the end anyway.

Near didn't investigate Night 2? Wow... did he like never send you a PM or did he just say "no investigation"? And yeah, the_cat_herder was funny for submitting that Fat_Tony protection. lol.

Anywayz, good game all, and I'm glad to have played with you all!

[Incognito]

Yeah, Ripley, I'm really, really glad you replaced in on my side. I felt like with your experience playing with me as town, you might have figured me out really easily. I agree with you about the balance on the scum team; you and me definitely thought things through while gorckat had that cowboy-ish type of attitude. This was definitely a lot of fun. It was a real pleasure playing with you and gorckat.