Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[Oso]

I don't understand Oso's contradiction. I don't want to defend Tasky here because I think he's pretty scummy anyways, but I still don't get it.

Oso: I'd like you to answer these questions before we get deep into the game.

Friend: Ok, but they are not really game related, how does this help?

Oso: They don't really, just might be helpful to me as the game goes along, sort of build a personality profile on you.

Friend: Sounds pretty innocuous but I think I'll pass. They aren't helping the game as a whole as far as I can see.

Oso:But not answering questions is denying information... and thats scummy

Friend: But you said......

Oso:

SCUM

I apologize if that comes off as sarcastic. Best way i could illustrate it without hitting you with an 'Oso certified' text/logic wall. Basically, the contradiction, as I see it, comes in where Tasky comes in and says a list of questions basically have no real bearing on the game except to 'mainly to get out of the RVS' but he his willing to base scum reads off of people who won't answer them based off denying information. Information he has already stated that, in the post where he poses the questions, was nothing more than to get out of RVS. He keeps adding reasons though so I'm sure we are not through with this.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@Friend: As you wish:

ISO: 1 Does RQS. His RQS questions are mostly good, but #2 and #3 indicates rolefishing.

ISO: 2 Gives poor reasons for voting vezokpiraka, sounds like OMGUS.

ISO: 3 Response to first quote is not a solid defense. I counter attack him in #30, saying that the questions were rolefishing because they could potentially reveal town power roles, something that we do not want to do. I also noticed that he has not answered the question I asked at the end of #30.

ISO: 4 Performs a major contradiction. At the top of the paragraph, he said it was just for him to get a sort of a personality profile. In his response to jayfl383, he said that not answering the questions were scummy. See #43 for more information about the contradiction.

ISO: 5 Said that having personality profiles were town. Claims that scum already has almost all the information that they needed. Goes on to say that the more he knew about the person, the easier it was to find if the person is scum. I counter-respond to that paragraph in #47. I say that information is beneficial to town, but sometimes, they can help scums more then town. Tasky's second and third questions are examples of informations that benefit scums more then town.

[Tasky]

ok I see your point... but if you looked carfully, you'll see that vezokpiraka didn't just refuse to answer questions 1/2, but also 3/4/5/7... and now please don't tell me that those questions are pointless...
I can see if someone doesn't like questions 1/2, but I'd still prefer if they answer it... but he basically refused to answer at all

[Tasky]

EBWOP: this was referred to Oso's post

[diddin]

definitely town... scum already has (almost) all information they need... if I know more about you, it will be easier for me to find out whether you are scum or not...

The scums know who are the townies and who are the scums. But like townies, they can learn more. Information is helpful to town, but the downside is that they can sometimes be helpful mainly to scums. Scums want power roles dead before normal townies and

by asking those questions, you are giving the scums an advantage.

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?
how exactly are those questions supposed to give the scum information on the power roles?

No, he's saying that both sides are looking for information, do it can be a double-edged sword.

ok I see your point... but if you looked carfully, you'll see that vezokpiraka didn't just refuse to answer questions 1/2, but also 3/4/5/7... and now please don't tell me that those questions are pointless...
I can see if someone doesn't like questions 1/2, but I'd still prefer if they answer it... but he basically refused to answer at all

But you said earlier that the questions were just a player profile. We aren't gonna catch scum just by answering basic profiling questions. It gives info, but it might give scum some tells for when people have particular roles.

[Tasky]

how exactly is scum supposed to use it if I answer "I like being [insert role] and I really hate playing games if [insert role] is present" to questions 1/2?

But you said earlier that the questions were just a player profile. We aren't gonna catch scum just by answering basic profiling questions.

of course not... but definitely more than just casting random votes
and then, everyone uses his method to scum-hunt... I like knowing a little more about you (I'm not referring to private stuff), others don't care...
if you'd like me to do something because it can help you scumhunt, and it doesn't cost me anything and I'm not afraid of what you might get, I'll collaborate even if I would do it differently...

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?

Read the post. I said that information is helpful to the town, but sometimes, they benefit scums more then town. But generally, no, they do not hurt the town because without information, town cannot make informed lynch decisions.

how exactly are those questions supposed to give the scum information on the power roles?

They have a preference for a role. Those two questions can help scums pin down which townsperson has a power role and which doesn't.

For example, if I did answer both of your question, scums could use my answers to help indicate which role I might have and which role I might not have. Sure the person could be a Vanilla Townie, but they could very well be giving out there role for the game without knowing it. This puts townies in even more risks for a Night Kill then they already are.

[Tasky]

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?

Read the post. I said that information is helpful to the town, but sometimes, they benefit scums more then town. But generally, no, they do not hurt the town because without information, town cannot make informed lynch decisions.

that's exactly what I am saying...

how exactly are those questions supposed to give the scum information on the power roles?

They have a preference for a role. Those two questions can help scums pin down which townsperson has a power role and which doesn't.

For example, if I did answer both of your question, scums could use my answers to help indicate which role I might have and which role I might not have. Sure the person could be a Vanilla Townie, but they could very well be giving out there role for the game without knowing it. This puts townies in even more risks for a Night Kill then they already are.

this assumes that people will answer telling the role they have in the game... but the questions is what role

you like/don't like

not what role you are... just because I like a role, that doesn't mean that I'm going to get that role...

look, I can kind of accept the argument which says that those questions are useless... maybe they are, but maybe they are not... I like them and that's reason enough for me to ask
but I cannot accept the scum-could-use-it argument as I explained above...

[xvart]

@xvart: look at my last post

Yeah, I missed that. You think that your second vote on Friend generated the discussion that is going on? We should all thank you for that vote?

definitely town... scum already has (almost) all information they need... if I know more about you, it will be easier for me to find out whether you are scum or not...

The scums know who are the townies and who are the scums. But like townies, they can learn more. Information is helpful to town, but the downside is that they can sometimes be helpful mainly to scums. Scums want power roles dead before normal townies and

by asking those questions, you are giving the scums an advantage.

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?
how exactly are those questions supposed to give the scum information on the power roles?

I already gave you the answer to this. Say someone responded that they like a specific power role and then that person lurks, says something along the lines of I having trouble getting into this game, etc. In scum eyes, that may not be a solid case for determining if that person should be NK'ed; but it certainly is evidence to support that that person is not enjoying the game and is probably not one of the roles he previously mentioned that he enjoyed playing. In addition, asking how people characterize their playstyle also gives clues to the mafia if someone is not behaving in the way they described. You are taking the information=pro town a little too literally; as more information is pro-town as long as it comes out fluidly in the game.

because that's the same justification I gave in the other game... simple as that

The justification you gave in the other game was because he scared a poor cat?

xvart.

[xvart]

Sorry, didn't see the third page. Some of my commentary is redundant.

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?

Read the post. I said that information is helpful to the town, but sometimes, they benefit scums more then town. But generally, no, they do not hurt the town because without information, town cannot make informed lynch decisions.

that's exactly what I am saying...

So you think it's okay to okay to provide opportunities that may be more advantageous to scum?

xvart.

[Tasky]

definitely town... scum already has (almost) all information they need... if I know more about you, it will be easier for me to find out whether you are scum or not...

The scums know who are the townies and who are the scums. But like townies, they can learn more. Information is helpful to town, but the downside is that they can sometimes be helpful mainly to scums. Scums want power roles dead before normal townies and

by asking those questions, you are giving the scums an advantage.

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?
how exactly are those questions supposed to give the scum information on the power roles?

I already gave you the answer to this. Say someone responded that they like a specific power role and then that person lurks, says something along the lines of I having trouble getting into this game, etc. In scum eyes, that may not be a solid case for determining if that person should be NK'ed; but it certainly is evidence to support that that person is not enjoying the game and is probably not one of the roles he previously mentioned that he enjoyed playing. In addition, asking how people characterize their playstyle also gives clues to the mafia if someone is not behaving in the way they described. You are taking the information=pro town a little too literally; as more information is pro-town as long as it comes out fluidly in the game.

I'll have to accept your opinion even if I don't agree with it... I think the kind of information one gets from those questions is much more pro-town than pro-scum but everyone has his opinion on such things...

because that's the same justification I gave in the other game... simple as that

The justification you gave in the other game was because he scared a poor cat?

yes... RVS joke on his avatar...

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?

Read the post. I said that information is helpful to the town, but sometimes, they benefit scums more then town. But generally, no, they do not hurt the town because without information, town cannot make informed lynch decisions.

that's exactly what I am saying...

So you think it's okay to okay to provide opportunities that may be more advantageous to scum?

the "that's what I'm saying" point is that generally information doesn't hurt town since the need it to make lynch decisions

[quadz08]

I'm pretty neutral on this issue of Tasky's questions. I personally think that questions can really help get a game going (as they have). All this contention about Tasky's 2nd and 3rd questions, I feel, may be suited to a not-in-game setting; I don't think Tasky did anything scummy, or even anti-town. As I believe has been said, any information gathered from those questions is backed up by very WIFOM-y reasoning. I can understand the points being made against it, but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

[ChibiSanNub]

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?

Read the post. I said that information is helpful to the town, but sometimes, they benefit scums more then town. But generally, no, they do not hurt the town because without information, town cannot make informed lynch decisions.

that's exactly what I am saying...

So you think it's okay to okay to provide opportunities that may be more advantageous to scum?

the "that's what I'm saying" point is that generally information doesn't hurt town since the need it to make lynch decisions[/quote]
But the thing is, trying to figure out power roles is not necessary in order for town to make a good lynch decision. Not only is it not necessary, but it gives scum an advantage and they'll be able to possibly find PRs. I don't get what you're not understanding, rolefishing most definitely will not help town.

[ChibiSanNub]

EBWOP: I fucked up the quotes somehow. Whatever.

[Friend]

I don't understand Oso's contradiction. I don't want to defend Tasky here because I think he's pretty scummy anyways, but I still don't get it.

Oso: I'd like you to answer these questions before we get deep into the game.

Friend: Ok, but they are not really game related, how does this help?

Oso: They don't really, just might be helpful to me as the game goes along, sort of build a personality profile on you.

Friend: Sounds pretty innocuous but I think I'll pass. They aren't helping the game as a whole as far as I can see.

Oso:But not answering questions is denying information... and thats scummy

Friend: But you said......

Oso:

SCUM

I apologize if that comes off as sarcastic. Best way i could illustrate it without hitting you with an 'Oso certified' text/logic wall. Basically, the contradiction, as I see it, comes in where Tasky comes in and says a list of questions basically have no real bearing on the game except to 'mainly to get out of the RVS' but he his willing to base scum reads off of people who won't answer them based off denying information. Information he has already stated that, in the post where he poses the questions, was nothing more than to get out of RVS. He keeps adding reasons though so I'm sure we are not through with this.

I'm just having trouble seeing the contradiction here. Tasky didn't refuse to answer any questions, just said that the questions would help him scumhunt. This is quite possibly just my stupidity though.

[quadz08]

The contradiction is that he first said the questions weren't game-related, then went on to use not answering the questions as a reason to call someone scummy.

[Friend]

By the way, I still think diddin's play has been a little...off. His wagon on me didn't do anything, but he's proud of it like it helped out the town. And then harping on Tasky for Oso's "contradiction" seems like he's taking advantage of the situation.

@quadz and Oso: while Tasky said the questions weren't game related, he acted like they helped him scumhunt. If they do, that's fine by me.

[Oso]

And that is fine Friend, more power to him if he can actually make it work reliably. My problem with the whole idea wasn't against the idea, but rather that he used a refusal to participate as a basis to call someone scum.

What I actually think of the idea is a discussion I would like to have. But not here, in the middle of an active game.

[Friend]

I see what you're getting at, I suppose. While I don't think not answering the questions is scummy, I think I can see why he does.

What do you think about diddin, Oso?

[diddin]

By the way, I still think diddin's play has been a little...off. His wagon on me didn't do anything, but he's proud of it like it helped out the town. And then harping on Tasky for Oso's "contradiction" seems like he's taking advantage of the situation.

@quadz and Oso: while Tasky said the questions weren't game related, he acted like they helped him scumhunt. If they do, that's fine by me.

I'm not claiming sole responsibility for ending RVS, I'm just saying that my usual plan for getting out of RVS worked, regardless of because what I did or not.

[Friend]

But...the reason we're out of RVS is because of Tasky. I don't think anyone mentioned the wagon on me - I didn't even notice.

[quadz08]

Yeah, Diddin's comment about his "plan" working is a little strange, though I'm inclined to believe it's mostly poor wording on his part.

Also, UNVOTE: ChibiSanNub

Also again:

@Mod: has q21 confirmed yet? Just curious. Also, could we get an official vote count? Thanks!

[vezokpiraka]

@tasky
Your first three questions are useless.
Your playstyle question is stupid. You are just giving the chance to self meta. That won't help you scum hunt.
Bandwagoning is sometimes good and sometimes bad depending on circumstances.

I won't link to the game because it's still in progress and on another site.

[totallynotmafia]

Vote count 1.1

Oso (0)
Tasky (4) vezokpiraka, Oso, diddin, Super Smash Bros. Fan
KageLord (0)
Friend (1) xvart
q21 (1) KageLord
jayfl383 (0)
xvart (1) ChibiSanNub
quadz08 (0)
diddin (1) Friend
vezokpiraka (1) Tasky
ChibiSanNub (0)
Super Smash Bros. Fan (0)

Not voting: q21, jayfl383, quadz08

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

Deadline is July 21, 10:30 AM (GMT + 10:00). I live in Australia, so remember it's (GMT + 10:00) and my July 21 probably comes before most of yours does.

q21 has still not confirmed and has been prodded.

Edit: whoops, made a mistake on the vote count - fixed.

[xvart]

the "that's what I'm saying" point is that generally information doesn't hurt town since the need it to make lynch decisions

The town needs character profiles in order to make lynch decisions?

I'm not claiming sole responsibility for ending RVS, I'm just saying that my usual plan for getting out of RVS worked, regardless of because what I did or not.

But you are claiming some responsibility; so show me where the conversation occurred about bandwagoning or the person you bandwagoned occurred. AND, you then say your plan for getting out of RVS worked, whether you did it or not; so logically, you are saying because what I did failed, we still got out of RVS. The fact that you are trying to take credit for something to gain town points is highly suspicious. Care to link to games where you enacted your usual plan?

Plus, your vote on Tasky was extremely opportunistic.

Unvote
Vote: diddin

xvart.