Open 291 Frenenemies (+ other guy) - Game over: Wolves win!
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Crazy Mafia Scum
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Saying something's dismissable doesn't do anything except kill a possible discussion point. Why'd you feel the need to point that out?chkflip wrote:Now, which comment is more odd - Quaroath's choo-choo comment without him actually being on the wagon or the fact that Glass felt it necessary to point out the obvious? Neither. They're both dismissable.-
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RQS answers:
Not too badly.Krazy wrote:-How screwed is the town?
Werewolves, definitely.Krazy wrote:-Which are cooler, werewolves or mafia?
Expect me to post a lot in this game.Krazy wrote:-How lurkerish are YOU?
1. Neutral, and it's rarely rolefishing.Krazy wrote:-Rate the following on a scale of Very Scummy to very Noobish to Totally Pro:
-1. Asking questions about role mechanics (Is this always role fishing?)
-2. Talking about No Lynch
-3. Talking about theory in the first few pages
No Lynching is usually bad for the town but talking about it is a null-tell.
2. Neutral, but usually bad for the town.
3. It's scummy if that's all you're talking about.
Because he's obv-town and I'm afraid to get on his badside.Krazy wrote:-Why haven't you voted Crazy yet?-
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I was getting to you. Krazy's RQS was just easier to answer right away.
This doesn't make sense. Quar's elaboration happened after your earlier post. WHY, at that moment, did you feel the need to mark something as "dismissable?"chkflip wrote:It could only kill the discussion if everyone has the same opinion I do... which I highly doubt. I felt the need to point it out because, to me, at that current moment, it's not worth much; NOW, however, it strikes me that Quar still felt the need to elaborate.-
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I'm gone for over 24 hours and there are only 5 posts?
Krazy, your last post sucks. Explain yourself, please. Just because you openly admit that you're a hypocrite doesn't make it any better.
I don't agree with the wizrak wagon, but at least park is doing SOMETHING, which is more than most people have done.
Unvote: chkflipbut still IGMEOY
Vote: Quaroath
There was no excuse for him just posting his RQS answers and nothing else, despite there being plenty of stuff on Page 3 to comment on. And the fact that it's been almost 48 hours since then and he still didn't follow up on anything doesn't help his case.
Yes, there are other lurkers, but my focus in on Quaroath right now.-
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Okay, Quaroath. I'll keep your schedule in mind; that's totally fine.
My issue with you really wasn't with you not posting; it was more about your choice of what to respond to. Posting answers to Random Questions (and nothing else) at that stage was kind of pointless; there were more interesting things to talk about.
I'm just wondering - if you had limited time and couldn't respond to everything in the thread, why was Krazy's RQS the thing that you chose to comment on?
The reason I'm asking is because posting RQS answers and nothing else made youlooklike you were contributing, but in reality, nothing you gave in that post was substantial at all. It's essentially active lurking.
Though I do thank you for providing us with Post #85.-
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@park - Here is the main reason I voted chkflip. I eliminated all unnecessary information from the argument to make for easy reading. If you think I'm trying to chainsaw this, feel free to go back and read the actual posts.
chkflip wrote:Now, which comment is more odd - Quaroath's choo-choo comment without him actually being on the wagon or the fact that Glass felt it necessary to point out the obvious? Neither. They're both dismissable.Crazy wrote:Saying something's dismissable doesn't do anything except kill a possible discussion point. Why'd you feel the need to point that out?chkflip wrote:Now, why did I feel the need to mark it as dismissible? Not only to play Devil's advocate for a moment, but to get discussion flowing. I cannot clearly express my utter disdain for RVS.Crazy wrote:How is saying that something is "dismissible" supposed to start discussion?
"OMG everyone look at what that guy did!! Now let's dismiss it!"
To which I *eyerolled* because it's clear that the discussion came from me pointing out his scumminess. I'm sure that's the kind of discussion he was looking for, lol.chkflip wrote:The same way it already has.
Is there any reason to call something dismissible? No. But that's not why I voted him. I voted chkflip because of the pathetic way he tried to justify his actions. A townie is way more likely to admit that they made a mistake than a scum is. If he had just said "Okay, I see your point," then I probably wouldn't have voted for him. But then he proceeded to argue some ridiculous point that he was starting to start discussion, so I voted him.
As for Quaroath or wizrak, they may have other reasons for voting chkflip; but this was my reasoning.-
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I'm taking "it strikes me" to mean that chk found it suspicious, which is silly, because Quar only really "elaborated" because you (Glass) pointed his choo-choo comment out to him.chkflip wrote:It could only kill the discussion if everyone has the same opinion I do... which I highly doubt. I felt the need to point it out because, to me, at that current moment, it's not worth much; NOW, however, it strikes me that Quar still felt the need to elaborate.
I also dislike the way chk phrased that. I don't like when people avoid using the words "suspicious" or "scummy" and instead say crap like "noteworthy," "interesting," "odd," or in this case, "it strikes me." It's just really wishy-washy; either he's afraid to say "scummy" or he's just trying to fill up his posts. Bleh.-
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Another reason to lynch Krazy:
It's clear from this context that Krazy was intending to use wizrak's "thin skin" as a reason to lynch him. The way Krazy started backpedaling on this when I questioned him about it reeks of Krazy-scum. See posts #111 and #114 where he insists that heKrazy wrote:Thin-skinned much?
Guys I'm really feeling this wizrak wagon.didn'tintend it as a scum-tell.-
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@park - Even though I disagree with the wizrak wagon, you get town cred for showing initiative there. Krazy just piggy-backed on your case in a very opportunistic manner. His "I'm really feeling this wizrak wagon" post and his lame backtracking that followed really rubs me the wrong way.
@aaah - That doesn't answer the question of WHY you voted Glass in the first place.
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The lurkers either need to post or get replaced. Smash's V/LA ended yesterday, so he's due for a post. Chkscum and TBL seem to have totally disappeared, so they probably just need replacements. As for Jerbs, I'm awaiting his promised catch-up post.-
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Tell me that Post #104 does not look like opportunistic scum.Glass wrote:First off I think that the crazy-krazy exchange from last night is rather ridiculous on crazy's part. Don't think that needs any more covering.
Tell me that his posts that follow that do not look like lame backpedaling.
Tell me HOW you can possibly think that.-
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Chk, you definitely have a way with stuffing a lot of words in your posts yet still saying nothing at all. So you're basically denying ever having a stance on anything?
I don't care what you find "interesting" or what "strikes" you. Tell me what you find scummy!
What I find scummy is when someone tries to pass off the notion that calling something "dismissible" was part of an elaborate ploy to start discussion.-
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This is very much on par with something I've said as scum before, in an old game that I just looked at the other day.Krazy wrote:You're welcome to look at Open 289 for a game where I get emotional and advocate a policy lynch in my first post. Unfortunately I haven't flipped yet in that game, but it's hardly new behavior for me
A townie wants to play well and be helpful to the town. A scum just wants to look like town, even if it'sbadtown. So Krazy pointing out "Hey, look in this game where I also played badly" just seems like an argument scum would use.-
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I agree about your assessment of wizrak - that was a pretty bad wagon.
As for park, uhh, I just don't quite feel it. Wizrak's actions were kind of scummy according to traditional tells, so even though I disagree with the wagon, Icankind of see where it came from. IMO Krazy's attitude towards the wagon was way worse than park's, and I think initiating a case on someone is almost always more pro-town than bandwagoning on that case. Eh, I dunno, I'll probably have to get a read on park's replacement. I'm just not as confident with park being scum as I am with Krazy or chkflip.-
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I kind of don't want to make this comment in fear that it might derail the Krazy wagon, but this just "strikes me" as "odd."
Glass, why did you go from defending Krazy from my case in Post #148 right into voting him in Post #150? Is Krazy's one comment of "Why can't it be all of the above?" the only reason you're on this wagon?-
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Quotewalls ugh. Focusing on the main points FTW!
So Glass, I can't exactly figure out what you think Krazy's post #180is. Do youthinkit was a scumslip? Krazy just not reading your post? Or do you buy his current excuse that he was commenting on how your points about him seemed mutually exclusive?-
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I find both of you suspicious. Especially with 2 scum-teams, it's entirely possible that both you and Krazy are scum.Glass wrote:
You are voting for krazy though...crazy wrote:FoS Glass
What's up?
@Krazy - if you weren't sure whether Glass' original vote on you was a joke or not, why didn't you just ask him about that earlier?
You also seem to have a pretty well thought-out case on Glass, which makes it significantly worse that you didn't bring it up earlier. As a townie, why the heck would you keep your suspicions hidden like that?-
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I actually didn't say it was good; I said it was "well thought-out." Honestly, this feels like just another lame excuse, since there really was no reason NOT to call Glass on it immediately. Just like your other lame excuses that I called you out on earlier:Krazy wrote:LOL what are you talking about, that's not a good case against Glass. I didn't ask because it was meaningless to ask if it's a joke or not; whether he pursued it later on once the lurkers became more active would make clear whether it was a joke or not and also the intentions behind it.
andKrazy wrote:Like this: "The thin-skinned overreaction of wizrak makes me not want to play with her, so I want to lynch her. Thus I want her to be scum, so I feel better about wanting to lynch her." Does that make sense? It wasn't really a funny joke to begin with, and is just dreadful when I have to break it down. Was it really that hard to follow?
I didn't say your earlier post was a scum-slip btw; I was asking Glass what he thought it was.Krazy wrote:Honestly I was laughing so hard when I realized Aaah had voted for the same person twice without an explanation either time that I didn't deem it worth responding to.-
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Okay, so it wasn't a "case;" I don't care what you call it. It was a point that led to discussion; there was no pro-town reason to delay it. It's pretty dang obvious that you found post #148 from Glass at leastKrazy wrote:Call him out on it? I'm all for my cases being "well thought-out" but that wasn't a case, that was a discussion. You'll notice my vote was not on Glass. That's because I wasn't calling Glass out. I was engaging him to clarify a point of murkiness. It seems that you want to not cast blame on people yourself, but instead characterize other people as casting blame to do your dirty work for you.mildlysuspicious, so why did you totally ignore it at that time and wait until Glass attacked YOU in order to bring it out?
I'll explain my FoS on Glass once he answers my question.-
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What question are you referring to?Glass wrote:Don't really feel like answering this question since you totally ignored my last one to you, but whatever:
This one?
I answered that, in that I was suspicious of both of you, and I didn't see it that if one of you was scum then the other was automatically town.Glass wrote:You are voting for krazy though...
What's up?
Or this one?
Which I might not have directly answered but I thought I implied that it was because I didn't want to derail the Krazy wagon.Glass wrote:Why wait until now to bring this point up?-
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My FoS on Glass was because of his reaction to Krazy's post #191.
Glass' reason for voting Krazy was pretty weak to begin with, and then in post #191 Krazy basically destroyed that reason entirely. When I saw Krazy make that post, I immediately wondered how Glass would react to it. I expected a townie to at least beslightlytaken aback by it.
Needless to say, Glass wasn't taken aback at all and instead he just mindlessly started going after Krazy more than he ever had before.
And the fact that Glass is still sticking by THIS argument after all this makes me even more suspicious of him.
For the rest of you that don't understand my point here, see Krazy's posts #191 or #194. It's blatantly obvious to me that KrazyGlass wrote:I don't even get why krazy would bother to leave a single "What if I am scum?" line, so I would have to opt that he did not reading my post sufficientlydidread Glass' post #148.
So what am I saying, exactly? Glass' reason for voting Krazy was weak to begin with, and yet he still stuck by it even when Krazy totally proved him wrong.-
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@Krazy - You either missed or ignored my question:
Crazy wrote:Okay, so it wasn't a "case;" I don't care what you call it. It was a point that led to discussion; there was no pro-town reason to delay it. It's pretty dang obvious that you found post #148 from Glass at leastmildlysuspicious, so why did you totally ignore it at that time and wait until Glass attacked YOU in order to bring it out?-
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@Glass - Krazy's big long explanation for his comment:
Whether you agree with Krazy's logic or not, it's pretty obvious to me that Krazy thought this out ahead of time. since it'sKrazy wrote:The first is that he gets emotionally involved in the game and that influences his decisions (granted, this happens for everyone, but I mean more so than the average joe). The second is that he is open to policy-lynches, he sees wizrak as being a hindrance to town even if he is town. The third is that he was being an opportunistic scum trying to lynch wizrak for being thin-skinned.
It seemed like no matter which option you chose above, you were going to be positioning yourself somehow:
If you opted for possibility one, then I am, if not trolling, then 'emotionally involved.' This is your null-read that leaves open the most possibilities, but can in any situation be used to attack my ethos or credibility should I turn my crosshairs toward you.
If you opted for the second possibility, then you could use that as a "mostly town" read, which you could use to explain a town-read of me to help you "buddy" me.
If you opted for the third possibility, you could begin making a case against me.
It seemed like the most profitable for you at this point in the game probably would have been possibility two, which is why I raised the possibility that it might be more than one: why can't I be both two and three; opportunistically lynching the player that I can say that, even though they might be town, were still being a hindrance? I mostly just didn't like how you were setting up possibility three as a stand-alone possibility. Perhaps you could claim possibility two today, but then after wizrak flips or later down the line, begin a "but maybe I was mistaken... maybe it was possibility three all along!"veryverbose and it does fit in with his question in Post #149. To say that "OMG KRAZY DIDN'T READ MY POST SCUM!" after the explanation here doesn't make sense to me. It sounds to me that at some point during the day you *decided* that you were going to vote Krazy and then you had to continue to justify your case rather than look into future developments.-
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@chk - I didn't vote you because you called something dismissible; that's just what caught my interest. I voted you because you tried to justify that you calling Quaroath's choo-choo train comment "dismissible" was an elaborate play in order to start discussion. Yeah, well, all you managed to do was make yourself look like scum. If that was your goal, congrats on starting discussion.
Reaction fishing is great - I've probably done it like 17 million times this game. But if you're calling something dismissible, then you're not reaction fishing, or at the very least you're doing it very poorly...
Bad reaction fishing: Quaroath's choo-choo comment is dismissible!
Good reaction fishing: @Crazy - What do you think about Quaroath's choo-choo comment?
I'm interested in hearing your case on Krazy, though.-
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After reading the chk's and Krazy's cases on each other (i.e. chk's case and Krazy's defense of it), I feel slightly better about chk since now he's actually posting valuable information, and I feel about the same towards Krazy.
The only thing that bugged me about chk here is that he failed to understand the sarcasm in Krazy's "hammer before replacements can catch up" post. In context, I thought it was pretty obvious. Note: I'm not saying that misunderstanding sarcasm is scummy; I'm saying that I don't entirely buy the notion that he actually misunderstood it. But that's a small point.-
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@ModWas the back-up mason determined at the start of the game or will the role just go to a random townie that's still alive whenever one of the masons die? If it's the former, then what would happen if the back-up mason died before he became a mason? Would he be revealed as a "Back-Up Mason" or as a "Townie?"
Also, if both masons died in the same night, would the back-up mason still be notified and get a link to their QT?-
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Thinking it over, I want to VOTE: LlamaFluff for trying to take us on a mafia-hunt. I think he's a werewolf trying to force the spotlight on finding mafia rather than finding werewolves or just finding scum in general. Honestly, a werewolf lynch isn'tthatbad, and I'm pretty sure in most cases it will actually bebetter.
Lynching mafia today will put us in a 4-2 endgame tomorrow. Lynching a werewolf today could lead to a bunch of possibilities. Most of them are better than a 4-2 endgame. If we lynch the other mafia today, we destroy the possibility of crosskills on Night 2 AND Night 3.
Also, a mislynch in 4-2 will lead to a werewolf win. A mislynch in 3-1-1 means the game still continues with a Prisoner Dilemma-like problem where the town still has a chance to win.
The only way a werewolf lynch would beworseis if both scum-teams ended up killing different masons (which is why I asked that question in my last post). But I don't feel that that's a strong enough possibility to focus all our efforts on specifically lynching Mafia.-
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There are 8 people alive right now. A 2-1-1 is impossible. With a werewolf lynch we get 3-1-1, 4-1-1, 4-1-0, or possibly even an instant win. And you can't say "If we lynch town today" as part of your argument - that has nothing to do with anything. What do you mean by "the sure thing," btw? Tclawren isn't confirmed mafia.
Also, if we mislynch in 3-1-1, the game isn't over. If we mislynch in 4-2, it is over.-
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I'd rather have a 3-1-1 than a 3-2, since if we accidentally mislynch in a 3-1-1, the game's not over. The "two confirmed townies" thing is silly and not even true. We'd be guaranteedoneconfirmed townie in a 3-2, AS WELL as in a 3-1-1. The logic you're using is akin to this:
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Crazy: I'll take a burger.
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*sigh* This is going to be the last time I'm going to talk about this crap, since it's totally going nowhere.
Llama, please stop using the number of confirmed townies in your argument! Both mafia and werewolves are equally capable of killing masons! We're just as likely to go into a 3-1-1 with 2 confirmed townies as we are to go into a 3-2 with 2 confirmed townies. Note my burger and fries reference. That's what you're doing.
A mafia lynch will lead us into a 4-2, with a NL after that leading us to 3-2. That is the ONLY thing that can happen.
A werewolf lynch could end up leading into a bunch of possibilities. The absolute worse is a 3-1-1, which is STILL better than a 3-2 due to the chance of a Prisoner's Dilemma scenario. In addition, there are better things that could happen after a werewolf lynch. If one scum team kills the other, we have a 4-1. If both scum teams kill each other, we get an instant win. None of that is possible if we go mafia-hunting today.
At the very worst, a werewolf lynch is approximately equal to a mafia lynch. At the best, it is much much better.
@Other people- Is Llama a likely werewolf due to his insistence that we go mafia-hunting today?
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And yeah, I didn't like that avatar very much either, Glass. I changed it back.-
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- Joined: May 6, 2008
- Location: Somewhere
Seeing how you stuck by the idea that a mafia lynch is better makes me think that you do sincerely believe that and that it is not indicative of your alignment. So I'll abandon that for now, and if I suspect you again, it will be for different reasons.
If you end up being a werewolf, I'll probably kill myself, though.
I probably need to examine a few things to figure out which one of you guys I should tunnel next.-
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Crazy Mafia Scum
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Crazy Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4435
- Joined: May 6, 2008
- Location: Somewhere
Quick defense from me. I don't want to spend a whole lot of time on this, because the fact that you actually made a case against me gives me a town feeling about you. I think scum would search out one of the numerous easier wagons, or if they genuinely thought I was scum, just NK me.
-I didn't address your vote for me originally because I was waiting for your case. I assumed you were going to explain yourself later. If you hadn't, I would have voted you after a certain point.
-If I ignore certain posts, it's because I don't care about them at that time, and I don't want my posts cluttered with useless information that will go nowhere. If there's something specific you want me to address, point it out to me.
-If you think I'm leading the town, that's your perception, but I don't see how that has anything to do with my alignment.
-I wasn't really "werewolf hunting" so much as objecting to Llama's "mafia hunting." I really have no idea how "werewolf hunting" would be much different from general scum-hunting, anyway, since no werewolves have flipped yet.
-I wasn't attempting to "hide behind numbers." If you noticed in one of my recent posts, I even addressed that the debate between Llama and me was going nowhere. I asked other people to comment just to gain some possible insight, but then I ended it. My overall opinion of the thing now is that Llama is slightly more pro-town for it. I still disagree with him, but I have a hunch that scum would have backed down more in that situation in fear of looking horribly scummy, and Llama didn't back down. My main goal in that argument wasn't merely to debate theory, but to better deduce Llama's alignment. As for the lynch today, I'm satisfied if we lyncheithertype of scum.-
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Crazy Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4435
- Joined: May 6, 2008
- Location: Somewhere
Meh... he's not really "searching those out" though; his priority was on me.
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@chk - Why did you assume that Llama was a mafia instead of a werewolf? And why didn't you comment at all on the Glass wagon? Put that together with your interactions with Glass on Day 1 and something definitely seems "odd" here.
(Sorry, couldn't resist. )-
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Crazy Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4435
- Joined: May 6, 2008
- Location: Somewhere
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Crazy Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4435
- Joined: May 6, 2008
- Location: Somewhere
I dunno. I pretty much have town reads on singer, Llama, and Furculow. I have scum reads on Glass and chkflip. That leaves you and smash. Both of you sorta seem "town-ish" but there's nothing specific that I can say makes me think "Wow, that guy is totally town."tclawren wrote:Crazy- If we were to acually mafia hunt, who would be your no. 1 suspect.
Glass is my top suspect, and he could be either type of scum, easily. My hunch is that he's a werewolf with chkflip, but I don't feel strongly about that; I just feel strongly that he's scum in general, and since I think lynching a werewolf is slightly better than lynching a mafia, that's all I can really go on at this point.-
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Crazy Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4435
- Joined: May 6, 2008
- Location: Somewhere