Mini 626 - Crew vs. Pigs - GAME OVER!!

[Goatrevolt]

Hey, I just replaced Chenhsi, who appears to have a bit of a wagon on him. I probably won't have an opportunity to read through this game until tomorrow, but I should definitely have something by tomorrow evening.

[Goatrevolt]

Hey goat! Very pleased to see you replace Chenhsi. That also takes away the reason for my vote (I think I can safely assume Goat isn't a lurker).

Hi! No...I can't say I often get accused of lurking .

I've read through page 4. Here are some notes I have so far. Please answer any questions directed at you.

Post 20, darkdude: Wow a claim already. I disagree with your reasoning for making the claim. The entire point of your role is to soak up a night kill, and claiming kind of defeats that purpose. Regardless, while I disagree with you claiming, I see no reason not to trust that claim. Scum generally don't come out that early with a claim like that, because it defeats their purpose of remaining undetected by the town and paints a huge target on them. Unless further evidence surfaces, I see no reason to disbelieve him.

Post 22, forbiddanlight: Wants to have a cop check him immediately. My question is why do you want him to be checked by a cop?

Post 26, Kison: Why is it important to you whether or not he can be killed in the endgame? I don't like this fishing at all.

Post 27, Matin: I'm not a fan of this post. Your end result is that you believe his claim, but throughout the post you plant seeds of doubt in people's minds (could be lying scum, could be godfather). You remain in the camp of "believe his claim" but you're throwing information out there to lead others towards a disbelief in his claim. I find that scummy.

Post 29, Ghyrt: Don't buy the push on raider here. I think him asking everyone to weigh in on darkdude's claim was a reasonable request.

I don't see an issue with raider's post 23. There's no harm is forcing everyone to put down an opinion on the claim this early. I consider it a null-tell basically.

Post 47, DarkDude: How do you think you claiming is going to help us towards catching scum? Edit: Never mind, answered later on.

Post 48, Cass: I don't see darkdude not thinking about wasting a cop investigation as a point against him. The general consensus here seems to be that either he's telling the truth or is a mafia godfather. Having a cop investigate him is purely a waste. Also, your statement that he should have considered "all possibilities" is a bit unfair. YOu can't expect him to have seen every possible scenario on page 1 when claiming. I don't agree with him claiming, "but it smells more like a judgement error than an outright lie" as Ghyrt said.

Post 54, forbiddanlight: I have a strong urge to just ignore this post. .

Post 59, Cass: I find it interesting that you note that DarkDude's claim is the kind of claim you don't believe when he's at L-2, but then go right ahead and ask why he didn't wait until L-2 to claim it.

Post 60, DarkDude:

"I disagree. I think we have a good idea of players' behaviour by looking at their reaction at my claim."

I agree with this statement. Players reactions to claims like this are invaluable resources.

Post 62, raider8169: Yeah, I think that's pretty much the general consensus, hence he shouldn't be investigated by a cop.

Post 69, raider8169: I like this post, or at least where he's going with it.

Post 70, Ghyrt: Doubtful. He'd have no way of knowing whether or not we'd jump to the conclusion of a godfather, etc. It'd be a ballsy play as scum.

Post 71, Ghyrt: I like this post here. I think this is a pretty good analysis of the situation.

Post 73, forbiddanlight: Disagree. I don't think the cop should investigate him.

Post 84, ting =): Why don't you think discussion of darkdude's claim is helpful in any way?

Post 85, raider8169: Good point in the top half of this post, which actually leads me to a suggestion. If we have a vig, they should shoot darkdude. If he's bulletproof, it won't hurt. If he's a lying scum godfather, then we nailed a lying scum godfather. Thoughts?

Post 86, Ghyrt: Agreed almost entirely here, except for the part at the end where you say it's a null-tell. Ghyrt is absolutely correct. Calling this action WIFOM and ignoring it is being short-sighted.

I'll hopefully finish my read tonight and be able to jump right into discussion.

[Goatrevolt]

I guess I can buy the instinctive question bit. That was actually the first question that came to mind for me as well based on a discussion I remember reading somewhere about bulletproofs.

My issue was simply that if he's town, it's free info to scum. If he can be endgamed, the scum know they can leave him be. If he can't be endgamed, then they'll have to figure out a way to deal with him. Basically, I don't see that information as useful at all to the town but potentially helpful to scum. It rang alarm bells for me when you got that info out of him.

[Goatrevolt]

Ok, I'm fully caught up. I have much less thoughts on the second half of the day because I wanted to get caught up quicker and it was taking me forever to comment on a ton of posts like i was doing earlier. Anyway, here are the rest of my comments while reading through

Post 105, forbiddanlight: First you say that the cop should investigate darkdude, and then later backtrack into the cop shouldn't listen to you anyway so it doesn't matter?

Post 112, raider: I disagree with some of this. I'm inclined to believe darkdude is town for now, but that doesn't mean that he should be deciding our lynches. Town =/= correct. Can you explain why you think he should lead us around and why we should follow?

Post 115, Ennui2778: Can you explain this post? I don't see how darkdude's claim could be construed as a way to draw out other claims.

Post 141, Ennui2778: This post rings some bells for me. It strikes me as a "I can't believe the town has an overpowered role" type of post. Lamenting the balance of a town power role really doesn't sound pro-town to me at all. I'll admit though, that this argument is based on my current read that darkdude is town. If he's scum, then it's a null-tell.

Post 159, Ennui2778: Nefarious? I'm not liking that added justification to the vote, which makes your vote sound better, but isn't real reasoning. Nefarious implies that chenhsi had been actively posting things that were directly anti-town, when in reality he was simply just lurking.

Post 177, Kison: I like this post. Maybe I'm just partial because I'm still here as a result, but Kison is bringing up legitimate points. Some of the Chehnsi votes were pretty awful, such as Ennui's on post 159, which is some indication of a poor wagon.

Post 178, darkdude: I'm not a fan of this mentality. If you have a player who is hard to read you can solve it with a cop investigation or figure out whether they are town or scum through other means. Lynching someone for the sole reason of "lynch him now because he's unreadable and he'll be trouble at Lylo later" is really poor in my opinion. That completely fails to take into account any external factors which may be used to clear a player as a townie. Cop investigations, voting histories, etc.

Post 181, raider: If a townie is a bad poster and you lynch them you still lynch a townie. Can you explain how that's a benefit because I don't see it?

Post 210, forbiddan: Rolling over is not a scum tell. It's a null tell. Are you trying to say that only town try to fight their lynch and scum just always accept it? It's in both town and scum's favor to fight their lynch. It's not in either's favor to roll over and die. Other than that, I don't have much of a problem with your mega post. Usually people are too wishy-washy, but you at least take some solid stances here which I like. I agree with most of your positions as well.

Coming later: who I think is scum and why.

[Goatrevolt]

Also, I wonder why you've been such a fan of Raiders posts yet he came to a very similar conclusion as I. Seems inconsistent..

Hmm...I'll have to check into that.

[Goatrevolt]

By far, my top suspect is Ennui2778. I feel fairly confident that he's scum, but I will admit that a lot of my arguments against him hinge on darkdude being town, so take that as you will. I feel fairly solid about darkdude based on his claim and posting today, so I'm willing to make the bet that he's town for the purpose of this case.

Soudns true to me.

I'll start with this as a framework. Ennui believes darkdude's claim, meaning he thinks darkdude is town. Keep that in mind.

Perhaps darkdude was claiming to get others to claim as well, I don't believe this has been suggested, but while Darkdude clearly has a

very powerful role

, there could be a counterbalance to his power.

This post right here reeks of scum fishing for a way to deal with a powerful town role. Seriously, if Ennui thinks darkdude is town, then why is he fishing for a way to deal with darkdude's role? He should be happy that darkdude is a tough customer for the scum to deal with.

I was just saying that there's probably an equally powerful person on the side opposed to DD, whichever one that may be. And it may not be suicide, a person with a similar role to claim could just as well say that he was town and we'd be faced with yet another variety of WIFOM.

Meaningless speculation about the scum having an answer for darkdude.

I'm not claiming anything. I just thought it would be a tad unbalancing if it turns out that we have this nigh-untouchable character with no "yin to his yang" as the saying goes.

This post right here is pretty much where I stopped and said, "yep Ennui is scum." Why is he worried about the balance issues associated with a pro-town role? Shouldn't he be happy that the town has a role that's tough for scum to deal with? This in combination with the earlier post I quoted suggests a mentality of worry and frustration with a seemingly overpowered town role. Scummy.

This opens an interesting point, how many factions are there?

Speculation on the number of factions. This definitely piqued my interest as well.

What bothers me a bit is the question about factions. Why do you need to know? If you are town, kill scum. If you are scum though, knowing about another faction to use might be beneficial.

This right here is a good point, and I agree. It's day 1, we try to lynch scum and we figure out the setup as we go.

vote- Chenhsi

for all the reasons everyone else did. He's gone beyond simply being quiet and is now nefarious.

Shameless bandwagoning, and extra but meaningless information to try to sweeten up his vote as something more. This is in my opinion the absolute scummiest vote on the Chenhsi wagon.

And honestly, that's it. He has 10 total posts in the game.

Ennui has shown a few notable signs of being scum and to top it off has basically lurked his way through the entire game. His vote on Chenhsi is also interesting considering he's only put in slightly more game related conversation but yet is willing to vote a lurker. I think there's a really strong chance Ennui is scum.

Vote Ennui2778

[Goatrevolt]

Strongly agree with the shameless bandwagoning and fast acceptance of DD's role. Not so much on the 'yin for yang' part. Ennui is actually the second most bothering vote on that wagon(actually, most bothering if you consider that FL actually never voted), simply for the lack of reasoning alone.

I think the yin for yang part is a pretty strong tell actually. A natural townie response is not to bother thinking about the overpowered nature of a role that he thinks is town or possible ways to counteract it. If darkdude is telling the truth and is town, then scum are probably fearing his role, and I think we're seeing some of that mentality slipping out in Ennui's posts.

[Goatrevolt]

The problem is that the counteracting ability would already be in the hands of scum. Why would scum speculate about a role they know doesn't exist?

That's a good counterpoint.

I still don't like that post though. I fail to see any pro-town motivation for discussing ways to counteract the bulletproof role, especially when he claimed that he thought darkdude was town.

I still don't like the "tad overpowered" comment either, because I hold it's a natural scum response but not something a townie is going to intuitively come to. The tone of the post reads to me like he's lamenting the fact that the town has a powerful role. That just doesn't read like town.

[Goatrevolt]

I answered this. I think discussions of the player's reaction to it is helpful. Discussion of the claim itself would be recursive. e.g.

player x: No scum would have the balls to do what he did, he must be town.
player y: Ah, but that's exactly what scum want you to think.
player x: Do you really think scum would have gone out and made a fake claim right when the day started?
player Y: Argggh. Can't you see that that kind of thinking is exactly what scum would want you to have on the claim?

..... and on and on. To have a discussion on it, you'd have to assume him being either town or scum at the get go, which kind of spoils the point of the discussion, which is to find out if he's town or scum.

The discussion is only circular and pointless if you assume that there's even motivation for him to make that claim as town and scum.

Personally, I don't see scum making that claim that early in the game. It completely flies in the face of everything scum are trying to do, which is remain undetected. Scum don't like to be in the spotlight like that, because it gives them plenty of opportunities to screw up or get caught.

You can say that a clever scum might want to do it because people think it's a townie move, but I hold that's a far less likely scenario, because it still puts that player in the spotlight which is anti-scum.

There are so many potential downsides to making that claim as scum. If he's a godfather he loses to a vig. If he's a regular goon, he loses to a cop. I don't see scum putting themselves under that kind of scrutiny early. I disagree with the assessment that his claim is a null-tell or WIFOM and should be ignored. WIFOM assumes that there is equal motivation for either scum or town to make that play, and I hold that there is clearly not equal motivation for town or scum to make that claim.

[Goatrevolt]

@goat: so you believe Darkdude, and you believe he is town. But what does that mean? You won't treat it as a null-tell, do you consider him a confirmed townie then?

No, he's definitely not confirmed.

I don't think his claiming is a null-tell. I find it a townie tell, which leads me to believe that he's town for now. One townie tell does not make a confirmed townie though. I consider this a point in favor of him being town, but it's not conclusive. If he plays like scum, then he should be lynched.

[Goatrevolt]

Works for me. I'm not entirely happy with the Ennui case. Not many people are being unique in their points on it. Then again, I think I'm just a bit too wary of wagons in general :S.

I fail to see what uniqueness of points has to do with how good a wagon is. Why are you wary of wagons. How do you lynch scum without wagoning them?

I think the case on Ennui is really strong, and I'm glad people are voting him.

[Goatrevolt]

Actually, Forbiddan, I want to hear your thoughts on my case on Ennui. You've talked about the Ennui wagon and the nature of the people voting him, but I'm interested in what you think about the actual points against him.

[Goatrevolt]

Only skimmed some things. Ennui : Please don't claim until L-2 at the soonest.

I think he is at L-2. I'd like to see a claim personally, but agreed that he should only claim if others intend on voting him.

Actually, I'd like to wait until LlamaFluff has a chance to catch up and comment before making him claim, but I'd support him claiming after that.

I still am worried about balance issues, as all town should be. While I expressed my belief in the validity of DD's claim that he was an un-NK'able pro-town, I was not swept away by the breadth of his power. I was hypothesizing as to the existence of a mitigating factor to his power. Is it so absurd that there would be such a lopsided character without someone on whatever other side there is, to oppose him? Do not misunderstand me, I would be thrilled if I was wrong, and DD is a character who is nigh immune to the scum, but a lack of jubilation, and a look for information into the nature of a high power-role is hardly a scumtell.

Why should all town be worried about the balance issues associated with a pro-town role? Granted, he may not be pro-town, but you suggested you believed his claim. What pro-town benefit is there to discussion of what might be able to deal with Darkdude? If you're town and he's town, then I see no reason you would need to know this or even bring it up. If you're scum I can see this as a natural reaction to a powerful town role.

While my alternative theory is clearly drawing great suspicion, I would like to direct your attention to those advocating a vig-direct. For, instead of simply exploring possibilities regarding the role, certain players advocated the outright killing of him, just to prove a point. I would ask you to reconsider who is scummier- he that would put forth a hypothesis or he that would direct a vig, (away from him/herself(that we don't even know exists) and kill a potentially great ally.

Meh. I'm not a big fan of this paragraph. First of all it's basically a "no, he's worse than me" defense, which isn't a defense at all, it's just a deflection. Secondly I want you to explain what's scummy about having a vig shoot darkdude. If he's a bulletproof as he claims, then how would a vig kill said potential ally?

The number of factions is absolutely relevant to the play, and I condemn in the strongest language anybody who wishes to say otherwise. If there are multiple families, there are multiple deaths, and those that do not appear to get along could still both be scum, while not exactly "scum-buddies," as it were. Yes, I admit that my post was in the wrong place, overly abstract and borderline counterproductive, and I apologize for that, and recognize that I would call someone else on the same thing (this is only my second game, though this is, of course, absolutely no excuse for anything). But I still believe that it would be advantageous for us to play D1 whilst laboring under the assumption that there will be two, not one people dropping dead tonight, and that the scum may not be as homogenous as we'd like to think.

I don't even understand where the idea of multiple scum factions even came from is my point. Why would that even be something that you bother to ask? Multiple scum factions is pretty rare in my opinion.

Yeah, the number of scum factions is definitely relevant to play. Why you immediately jump to the conclusion that there might be multiple scum factions is beyond me though. Why should we play today under the assumption that there are two scum factions? Do you have any evidence to suggest that this is the case? Honestly, I think this might be a slip of inside information.

I'm content keeping my vote on him.

[Goatrevolt]

Making that claim as scum is risky business, and likely to backfire. He gets shot by a vig, checked by a cop, etc. and he gets caught. Yeah there's always that slim chance he's the uber-powerful scum nightkill immune godfather but I don't see that as highly likely. He's put the spotlight on himself. If he's scum, I bet he gets caught sooner or later.

Are you opposed to just leaving him for a vig to test?

Also, the flavor arguments against him are weak in my opinion. Sure, it doesn't match up perfectly with the role, but it makes sense. The flavor suggest an inability to be night killed by one method, the role is night kill immunity.

[Goatrevolt]

Given this information, I am very suspicious of the players who seem to want DD to get vigged, getting vigged is not the same as getting “arrested” with the flavor presented. I think if someone decided to vig DD, he would turn up dead BPV in the morning.

I would think not, considering he has said multiple times that his role PM specifically states that he is immune to all NKs. I trust he is able to correctly interpret his role PM, and if he's lying and making it up, then he's dead scum. I'm not seeing a downside to vigging him.

I'm interested in seeing your cases tomorrow. I'd also like to hear you weigh in on my case on Ennui.

[Goatrevolt]

Llama:

For the last time, please let there be no confusion about whether I am only immune to scum attacks or not. My role explicitly says I am NK immune, which would imply all types of attacks.

[Goatrevolt]

This

is the very reason I voted for Chen. His weak spots and scum tell had been pointed out by the others, and I was agreeing, and voting based on the evidence brought forth by others. I reiterate, it is not scummy to vote without adding new information. Besides, even goatrevolt himself said that

It entirely hinged on the manner in which you voted me. You added additional justification that was completely unnecessary and untrue to try to sweeten up your vote. You were over exaggerating the circumstances simply to make your vote look better, which is scummy. That doesn't sound like town trying to vote scum, it sounds like scum trying to sneak on a wagon.

Because balance issues might exist. And I'm not scummy because I look into balance. While I said that I believed DD, what I did not say was that I'm willing to expose my back to him (bare being figurative only).

The way you worded those two posts screams to me of scum worried about a powerful town role, not a natural townie response.

And one of the reasons (but far from

the

reason) I did put forth the multiple scum theory was that I was accused of lurking, and I wanted to put forth a theory that would affect the game, as it clearly has.

I don't see how this is a conclusion you would just jump to. That would be like me saying early on in the game "I think there might be a cult in this game." Cult's aren't commonplace in games. For me to make that suggestion isn't natural thought process for a townie. I really think this might be a slip up and revealing of hidden information.

Oh, and it's L-3, not two. Nice try Goat.

My bad. I thought someone had mentioned putting you to L-2, so I took their word for it.

I find it weird to consider a claim which is OBVIOUSLY DETRIMENTAL TO TOWN IF TRUE a town-tell.

How is his claim detrimental to town? Are you talking about the fact that by him claiming he directs scum night actions elsewhere?

My thought that it's a town-tell has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the result of him claiming benefits the town. I already mentioned that I didn't think he should have claimed. Not beneficial to the town doesn't mean he's scum though. The likelihood of scum making an early claim like that and putting the spotlight on yourself is far less likely than a misguided townie doing so.

WATCHER OR TRACKER - Every night you can follow someone to find out where they go and what they are up to OR watch their house and find out who visited them.

ONE SHOT NIGHTKILL IMMUNITY - You have a standard issue thin bulletproof vest on that will stop a bullet. But it won't stop a second one. Cheap standard issue piece of crap. Actually, you're able to stop any nightkill action once no matter what its form. Ninjitsu, fast talking, cheap bulletproof vest. Whatever you have it works.You have one shot nightkill immunity.

Hi scum. *waves*

There's no way two pro-town roles both have night kill immunity. His 1-shot NK immunity would make sense if he's scum and there are multiple scum groups, an idea that he brings up unprovoked. Imagine that.

So, yeah. He's definitely scum. If he doesn't get modkilled, can we lynch him please?

[Goatrevolt]

In case I need to be more convincing here, I'll go through again why Ennui is scum.

-Discussion of whether a role he considers pro-town is balanced. That doesn't fit a townie mindset. It fits a worried scum mindset.
-Votes me, but uses meaningless additional reasoning to try to sweeten his vote. He's inventing reasons to join the bandwagon on me, which is scummy.
-Speculation on two scum groups comes out of nowhere and in my opinion suggests a slip of revealing hidden information. I can't honestly think of a reason he'd jump immediately to multiple scum groups unless he's scum and feels he's on an underpowered team. This also fits with his mindset of DD's role being unbalanced.
-His role is basically counterclaimed by darkdude's existing claim. There's no way there are two pro-town roles with NK immunity.

Actually, and here's one last point that I just noticed and I think should hopefully be the nail in the coffin.

In his roleclaim, he says:

You have a standard issue thin bulletproof vest on that will stop a bullet. But it won't stop a second one. Cheap standard issue piece of crap.

The term "standard issue" when referring to a bulletproof vest implies that he's being issued it as though he's a cop. As in "this is the standard bulletproof vest all cops get issued." That type of deal.

Can you imagine a mafia group saying something along the lines of: "Hey, here's your standard issue bulletproof vest. Oh, and here's your badge and gun. Good luck hunting down crime!" Doesn't fit. So yeah, I think his role PM sounds fishy as well.

I seriously could not be more convinced that he's scum.

[Goatrevolt]

Ooooh. Another thought. Based on DarkDude's claim, the scum are arresting people, not shooting them. Darkdude's claim flavor involves being immune to arrest. Ennui's claim flavor involves being immune to getting shot. I think that's a fairly clearly indication that they are not on the same team. One of them is scum. That would be Ennui.

[Goatrevolt]

I want to see what the mod does at this point, but I do believe the claim. I've never had a player seemingly quote a mod PM before, does is it always result in a modkill? If there's a modkill does the mod always/never give a full coroner report?

Why do you believe the claim? What do you think about my recent trifecta of posts on the topic?

[Goatrevolt]

Im in the same boat so I will answer atleast for me. I do believe his claim however his goal could be different. WATCHER OR TRACKER sounds like a role for a townie though. I dont see what scum would do with that.

Watchers/Trackers are those kinds of roles that you can see on scum just as well as town. As scum, they're good for finding town power roles. As town, they're good for finding scum making night kills or catching people in counterclaims.

Don't let his watcher/tracker claim fool you into believing he's town. His night kill immunity simply doesn't fit with DD's claim.

[Goatrevolt]

Why do you believe the claim? What do you think about my recent trifecta of posts on the topic?

To start, it reads like he quoted from his role PM and he later admitted to doing so. Secondly, if he was scum, I don't think he'd run the risk of claiming it was a direct quote from his PM and then have to face a bunch more suspicion as to why he wasn't mod killed.

Yeah, I believe he quoted from his role PM. I don't see any reason why him quoting his role PM at all means he's town in any way.

I suspect the mod is going to come in the thread and say "Yes he gets modkilled" or "No, he's fine." Him telling the truth about quoting his role PM isn't going to result in any more suspicion on him, and is not an alignment tell in any way.

[Goatrevolt]

Don't let his watcher/tracker claim fool you into believing he's town. His night kill immunity simply doesn't fit with DD's claim.

Why does this necessarily mean that Ennui, and not DD is scum? Answer: it doesn't.

No, it doesn't, but do you honestly think DD's been scummier than Ennui? I'd like to hear you comment on my reasons for finding Ennui scum, since you've kind of just brushed by it. Did you read the bulletproof vest point?

Also, you said that you're willing to cut Ennui some slack for being a newb. His discussion about multiple scum groups reads like the ultimate noob scum mistake of revealing information you shouldn't know. Thoughts?

[Goatrevolt]

Ohh, good call Cass, standard issue sounds like something that a cop would get.

Haha. Cass, people seem to listen to you when you say stuff yet ignore me when I say it . Next time I want to get a point across, I'll try to funnel it through you .

Or also consider that DD could be lieing?

I'm 98% sure it's Ennui as scum and not DD.

[Goatrevolt]

Oh, only 98% huh? lol..

Really, to your point the standard issue thing is compelling. The role implies investigator of some sort, which I immediately assumed was pro-town. I guess it is possible that the scum had an investigator..

Realistically, I'm more like 100%, but I gave a 2% buffer just in case. This is the most convinced I've ever been about a day 1 lynch since I've been playing mafia. Every single sign points towards him being scum.

Also:

Ennui2778[4] Goatrevolt, DD, Kison, raider

Is what I've got his wagon at right now. We just need 3 more brave adventurer's to lynch us some scum.

[Goatrevolt]

An important point is, if the scum are being issued with bulletproof vests, there must be another killing group.

Yeah. We're probably dealing with SK + Mafia or Mafia1 + Mafia2.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Ennui was a Serial Killer. SK's with some sort of NK immunity aren't that uncommon. I'm not sure how his watcher/tracker claim fits with that, but I guess we'll find out. He's obviously some sort of scum though.

[Goatrevolt]

Doesn't have to be or, but we'd have one fast game if it isn't. And I could see and SK fitting a lot better than a second scum group. Hell, I could come up with flavor right here for an SK.

If you want to paraphrase your SK role PM to us, I won't stop you.

[Goatrevolt]

Not buying it for a second. You got called out on the bulletproof vest part and now you're an ex-cop helping out the mafia. Convenient...

[Goatrevolt]

huh? that reads as if you are scum in this flavor, how does that clear you?

well, you're definitely scum the only thing to consider is if we should go with llama's plan to try and lynch someone else or just lynch you now..

Dude, he basically just claimed scum. Of course he gets lynched today.

[Goatrevolt]

Dude, he basically just claimed scum. Of course he gets lynched today.

Also, the llama plan I referenced was to try and get a twofer...obv Ennui dies either way..

Ah, I gotcha.

Jesus Christ Ennui, you do realize this not only ruins the game for your partner, but also for Cicero, who spent the time putting it together on top of months waiting in the moderating queue, right?

QFT. I'm happy for dead scum, but it does cheapen the game somewhat.

[Goatrevolt]

Given that this is obvious modkill, and hopefully at least temp-ban, I still am not against trying to see if we can lynch FL and get the modkill D1

If he's telling the truth about the partner being on the wagon, then I'm thinking it's CubsFan.

[Goatrevolt]

but you must admit, DD has acted scummy most of the game.

Examples?

[Goatrevolt]

I don't like trying to exploit the situation to our advantage either. I get much more enjoyment out of the game by winning through legitimately kicking scum ass than have the game handed to us through crazy circumstances.

Not buying the push on DD either. I'll have to see some convincing arguments there. I'm still liking Cubs Fan as the partner.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm thinking it's CubsFan myself, but I want to take another look at that wagon before making a decision.

[Goatrevolt]

We definitely should be trying to wipe out Ennui's scum group as soon as possible. Cutting down to 1 night kill each night would be a huge benefit.

~I couldn't say anything to keep me from going down, but my piece-of-crap scumbuddy who hopped on the wagon against me can go down too. And when you take him out- shoot twice

You'll have to.

I actually believe Ennui was telling the truth here. He just admitted to being scum, quoted his entire role PM, and seemed extremely frustrated, so I see no reason why he would go to lengths to deceive us here. Under the assumption that he's telling the truth, I think we should search for his buddy from that wagon.

Here was the wagon at the time:

Ennui2778[6] Goatrevolt, DD, Kison, raider, forbiddan, cubsfan

I think you can safely rule me out for a few reasons. First of all, I made the initial case against him, and then pushed the case back on him even after people were unvoting from the role claim. That would be pretty extreme lengths for busing. Secondly, he joined the wagon against Chenhsi (who I replaced) in a really scummy manner. For someone who seemed extremely pissed at getting bused, I doubt he would try to bus his own buddy like that. Thirdly, He mentioned that his scum buddy "hopped on the wagon against him." I started the wagon.

That leaves DD, Kison, raider, forbiddan, and cubsfan.

I'm ruling out Kison and raider simply because I've gotten fairly strong town reads from both of them.

I feel I can somewhat rule out DD because of the points I made about Ennui seeming worried about the overpowered nature of DD. The one thing that gives me pause is that Ennui claimed that you'd have to "shoot twice" to take out his buddy, and DD claimed a bulletproof role.

If there is a town vig who shot DD last night, I think you should shoot him again tonight. Either he's telling the truth and is a bulletproof townie who won't die, thus pretty much confirming him as town, or he's lying and will be dead scum. Seems a win/win to me.

That leaves forbiddan and cubsfan, and I will likely vote for one of those two. I'll just have to review and figure out who seems a better fit.

[Goatrevolt]

Nice catch. I guess that makes things easy.

Vote CubsFan

[Goatrevolt]

I'm thinking it's Cub as well, but what's bothering me is that FL pushed so hard to have Dark Dude investigated. What we know from Ennui's role PM is that his team realized they had a BPV ability and lacked investigation immunity. I could see them assuming the other team was in the same boat when Dark Dude came out so early and claimed to have a bulletproof ability.

Are you saying that you think DD might be a bulletproof from the opposite scum team? It's possible, and another reason why I think the vig should shoot him twice.

[Goatrevolt]

Oh Pickles

Scum tell.

As for whether or not _I_ think it's true, I'm not sure. We don't know what he other team has as far as abilities goes. I find it weird that scum without an investigation immunity would try to do something like this, though.

I agree. DD would be one ballsy scum to try a gambit like that without investigation immunity. Once we shoot him twice, though, he'll either be dead or confirmed, so that'll solve that issue.

Last day there were:
- People who wanted to wait for the mod
- People who wanted to lynch Ennui on principle
- People who wanted to lynch someone else, hoping to get two kills in one day

Now this situation was quite unique, so I have no idea if any of those reactions is a scum-tell or town-tell at all.

I don't really think any of those stances really points towards alignment. You waiting for the mod to come in isn't a scum tell at all.

Not too keen on people saying stuff like this about themselves, but meh. You have a point.

I generally avoid the "preemptive defense" as well, but I figured I'd just cross myself off the list from the get-go.

CubsFan's vanilla claim doesn't mean much one way or another. I see no reason not to hammer once we're ready to end the day.

[Goatrevolt]

My vote is at the ready. I just want a consensus on how we'll deal with me.

What do you mean deal with you?

[Goatrevolt]

Forbiddan, you were one of my top two picks for Ennui's scum partner, but then Kison pointed out that it was a he. I think you could definitely be part of the other scum group, but I'm not seeing any reason why we need to discuss that today.

One lynch at a time.

Disagree with lack of death being a confirmation. Nothing indicates that there is a Vigilante in the game. In fact, misleading flavor has already been confirmed via Ennui's roleclaim. Take a look at it. The PM he showed us says he has a one-shot bulletproof vest capable of preventing any night kill, yet the scum in this game 'kill' through use of arrests. Taking that into account, at least, Ennui's bulletproof is explainable through the existence of a second scum group. Dark Dude's, should he be telling the truth, is explainable through the existence of scum - there doesn't have to be a Vigilante in the game for his role to make sense.

Should we see a dead Vigilante somewhere in the future, that would be a different story entirely.

I totally agree. I got ahead of myself there. Either he's dead and scum, or he's alive and possibly confirmed, which depends on the presence of a vigilante.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm convinced people in this game don't even read the posts anymore.

What do you mean?

[Goatrevolt]

yeah basically- I mean I get that you all have basically decided to take a day for granted but like some discussion about it at least would be cool as opposed to a million "yeah- i agree with that guy- sounds like a good plan"

I'm definitely fine with discussing it further, but you're going to have to give us more reason than "Kison is sure pushing my case hard" as a reason to think he's Ennui's buddy.

[Goatrevolt]

Both Kison and Raider were on the Ennui bandwagon. Since they're both dead townies at this point, I think the only other males on that bandwagon were myself and DD. I'd have to check back to see if it makes any sense, but that would certainly point towards DD being Ennui's partner. Or possibly Matin? I think he was on and off the wagon at various points, so maybe Ennui was referring to him.

On the other hand, DD is still alive today, which would point to one of three things. There is no vig. There is a vig but they haven't been testing DD. There is a vig who has shot DD twice confirming him as pro-town.

One thought is this. If there are two scum on the opposing team, then by lynching Ennui's partner today we would lose tonight. It's probably in our best interest to lynch scum from the other team and hope for cross kills.

So, I think we need to start looking for scum team number 2.

[Goatrevolt]

Wow and I thought Ting was scum after what he did to me.

Looking through Raider's posts in day 2, that would be the only thing that suggests his investigation result from night 1. It seems that he investigated Ting.

[Goatrevolt]

The database wasn't infallible but you can be sure

some of the cops you were looking for were listed in there

I'm not sure how much to read in to this statement, but the bolded "some of the cops" might be heavily hinting at a godfather role.

Also, what are thoughts on a mass claim? We're potentially at Lylo, so it might be a good idea to mass claim and go from there.

[Goatrevolt]

OK, here's the deal. IF you are a vig AND you shot DD twice, I want a claim. Otherwise, don't.

Obviously, not I.

Forbiddan already claimed vig, so I'm missing the point of this exercise.

I did not shoot DD twice, though.

@Cass: I assume the scum can probably cross kill each other, simply from a game balance standpoint, but I have no clue if that's actually true.

At this point, I'm starting to really feel that DD is the Ennui's partner, based on process of elimination, the bulletproof vest, and the heavy hint at a godfather in raider's death flavor. The pieces are starting to fit here.

Forbiddan, you've shot him once already? Shoot him again tonight. At least, that's my suggestion. I think we should go for lynching the other scum group and then tonight shoot DD. Either he's town and gets confirmed, or he's scum and we all rejoice.

[Goatrevolt]

Hang on! Where?

Post 468.

[Goatrevolt]

Easy. I tried to vig llama. I got a message at day start that my vig failed. That was because he got arrested first. Why am I convinced DD is scum? I explained in my claim post. I shoot, cops arrest. Why does town have to be bulletproof? I suspect one shot immunity myself.

I'm not sure if that flavor argument really condemns DD. Either way, I still think the best idea is to simply shoot him again tonight.

I believe forbiddan's claim. I will heavily boggle at shooting LlamaFluff night 1, though.

@Goat: If Forbiddan is right and arresting is faster than shooting, your plan will fail horribly. So I really first want to hear from Forbiddan what makes her believe that is how it works.

Hmmm. Although it's not exactly the same thing. Basically we know that if the vig targets someone that the scum are arresting the arrest goes through first. But maybe the vig can shoot someone, and then later get arrested the same night by the cops.

Generally, if the vig shoots scum and scum shoot the vig, both kills go through. I'm not sure whether or not that's the case in this game, but I don't see why not.

[Goatrevolt]

I have a thought. What happens if we kill a scum pairing? It is possible we get our crew back? Thus the difference between arrests and kills? I'm not sure we should bet the game on it, but it might be worth a chance. I wanna hear thoughts on this. The only problem I see is that unbalances it in our favor again, since we get confirmeds back...so I could be barking up the wrong tree. But it's worth considering I think.

I highly doubt it. Killing officer Jones doesn't mean that the police force releases all the baddies he's put away just cause he's dead.

I'm in favor of a mass claim. We're (possibly...likely?) at Lylo, so I think it's a good plan to know what we have and then plot out our course.

ok. My kill goes through even if I'm killed, unless someone elses role screws it. I'm not opposed to your claim cass, but I'm wary of any mass claim. We know the scum is roled.

Good. I'd advocate pumping a second shot into the darkest of dudes.

[Goatrevolt]

Yeah, I kinda realized that as I was posting, but figured I'd put it out there. It's odd that he's specifying the precint :S.

That's a good thing. It shows us which night kills belonged to which scum groups.

[Goatrevolt]

I seriously can't tell if Fonz's response is "frustrated townie" or "frustrated by being pushed with weak case scum."

I don't think lurking is a point against him. I don't think the "no stances" is much of a point either. I'm surprised that he didn't see any scum tells from Ennui, but not seeing a case on someone doesn't mean that he's scum.

However, I'm not a fan of the OMGUS on Cass. Why do you think Cass is scum?

[Goatrevolt]

Oh, and we now know cass is scum. Cause she's softclaiming some kind of investigation she can't possibly have.

Yeah, I'm not sure what that's about either.

Normally if she has proof of you being scum, I'd say lynch you then lynch her if you're town. But since we're possibly at Lylo, that's not really an option.

[Goatrevolt]

No, I meant cop direct. Do you not recall why you were so sure I was scum D1? Reread your own posts. It still felt like hesitation on ennui. The way you phrased that post about the standard issue seemed to be downplaying it.

Unless you think he's Ennui's scum buddy, what do you think his downplaying of Ennui suggests?

[Goatrevolt]

Oh, and she's softclaimed an investigative role, she can't possibly have anything incriminating on me, and so she must be scum.

There are other ways of knowing someone is scum beyond just an investigation.

I'm a little confused as to how her role is able to both catch you as scum and confirm forbiddan as town though.

[Goatrevolt]

Darkdude just practically admitted to being scum in that last post. He doesn't believe a vig after that vig has fired on him once. He's scared out of his mind that you're going to shoot him again tonight forbiddan and he's trying to come up with some way to get you lynched.

Also, he 100% contradicted himself. Compare:

Game-wise my role message says I'm immune to all night attacks.

If I had only left it at "I cannot be arrested by rats", then it would be confusing, but I believe I also added a part saying that game-wise this translates to NK immunity.

For the last time, please let there be no confusion about whether I am only immune to scum attacks or not. My role explicitly says I am NK immune, which would imply all types of attacks.

With:

My flavour says that, again, I cannot be arrested by the cops. As pointed out many times before in cases against me, IF there is a vig who kills it should go right through my protection.

This guy is scum. That's obvious. Most likely he's Ennui's buddy, but I guess he could possibly be from the other team as well.

There are benefits to both lynching him today and vigging him tonight. Both plans seem to have their ups and downs. The lynch him today plan completely cuts out a NK (assuming he's Ennui's bud), which is good, but would mean forbiddan has to shoot the correct person tonight with her vig shot. The vig him tonight plan is much riskier but has potential for a higher payout. It's riskier, because it's possible that we'll have 3 night kills. If DD is Ennui's buddy, then we'll have his NK, the NK from the other group and him getting killed by forbiddan. Even if we lynch scum today, we could end up losing tonight.

I'm personally more in favor of the lynch him today and have forbiddan vig someone tonight plan. The other plan strikes me as too risky. We'd have to correctly lynch someone from the other scum team, and then hope we get lucky with night actions. I don't like to rely on that.

So I'm going to

Vote DarkDude

.

As for who you should shoot tonight, I'm not positive. I don't really have anything specifically against Matin, but there's nothing there that suggests to me that he's pro-town either, so that seems like a decent place to shoot. I'm not sure what's up with the Fonz/Cass's argument, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is scum. Ultimately, I'd prefer that you made your own decision, however.

[Goatrevolt]

We can't take the risk that all cops have bulletproof vests.

Yeah, that's a good point. If the other team has vests we'd be screwed.

Unvote

. I guess that puts us back at shooting DD tonight and lynching from the other group today.

I'll happily claim once Fonz is dead.

I'm not going to lynch The Fonz simply because you say so. Not at Lylo. If you're scum you can force down a mislynch and win, and it's not worth the risk.

I think you either need to give us your information or convince us that he's scum through other means.

[Goatrevolt]

Wow, a lot of stuff just happened. Let me read through everything and I'll let you know what I think.

Also, let me know if you want me to claim.

[Goatrevolt]

Assumptions:
- I and forbiddan are crew, a Vig and a RB. Goat is also crew, because of both his behaviour and process of elimination.
- There's two teams of two cops.

I'm willing to bank that forbiddan is crew. I'm nearly 100% positive on that. The problem is that I can't make the assumption that you're crew.

Ennui claimed and implicated his partner. At the time we looked at Kison and Cubs because they were on the wagon. But if you reread his posts, you'll notice

Matin totally bussed Ennui

. He just got off the wagon after the claim and so managed to go off the radar. Lucky him.

Conclusion one: Matin is Ennuis missing partner.

I think there's just as much of a chance of DD being Ennui's partner as Matin.

Cass, I think your analysis is fine. It makes sense. The issue is that it only makes sense if we can draw the conclusions you've drawn. That means that we have to take your assumptions at face value and draw some conclusions that aren't necessarily clear cut.

Here is my overall thought. We have Fonz (Doctor) and Cass (Roleblocker). Both have the potential to screw stuff up tonight if they are scum. Fonz could block a kill on a scum buddy and Cass could roleblock the vig shot. My initial thought is that one of the two is scum and the other scum are Matin/DD. If I'm correct, that means we'd have to correctly lynch whichever of The Fonz/Cass are scum to avoid having forbiddan's shot blocked tonight.

What makes you so sure of 3 pigs! That's what is pissing me off! If there were 3 pigs, all they'd fregging have to do is claim pig, and lock the game! They win! In fact, when I came out as vig, all they had to do was say "kk, we are cops, we all vote forbiddan". Anyone trying to claim to be a cop would have to vote me, and they wouldn't if they were protown. The game is screwed with 3. It only works out if there are 2. However, if the pigs would like to come out and try to lock the game, I'd be happy to see you try so we know who to vote.

You're overlooking the idea of multiple scum teams and how it plays a role here. It's definitely possible that there are 3 pigs and the game isn't over.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm going to go ahead and claim, since I see no reason not to complete the mass claim.

I'm Ronnie Ravioli. I'm the crew's watcher/tracker.

Each night I can keep an eye on someone and make sure they aren't working against the crew, or make sure they aren't worked over by the pigs.

Night 1, I tracked Ting. He did not target anyone.

Night 2, I tracked forbiddan. I can confirm that she did target DD last night.

I haven't made any decisions yet about who I'm going to watch or track tonight. That's going to depend on the results of today's lynch.

[Goatrevolt]

Well, I'm definitely glad you tracked me, just a bit curious why. Also, why Ting N1?

Basically, I'm hunting to catch someone making a night kill. I have two ways I can go about doing this. I can either track someone hoping that they are scum making the kill, or I can watch someone hoping they are the one getting killed.

Night 1, I debated between tracking Ting and watching raider. Raider struck me as a likely kill target simply because he was fairly pro-town, but also not extremely aggressive. He was playing like someone with a role, basically. Ting struck me as a likely member of the not-Ennui scum team. I was pretty sure that CubsFan was the other member of Ennui's team, so I tried to catch a night kill from the other side.

Night 2, I tracked forbiddan simply because I thought she had a good shot of being scum. When i saw you target DD, I figured you were the vig, and definitely support your vig claim 100%.

[Goatrevolt]

One of them must die today.

And it should

reeeaaaally

be forbiddan that dies, right? So you don't get vigged tonight. Am I wrong?

[Goatrevolt]

I've just skimmed through this last page, and I think Matin might be saying the same thing, but here's why Cass's plan doesn't work.

Let's assume for a second that she's scum. She doesn't roleblock DD and instead kills Forbiddan or Fonz or me or someone. DD also kills someone and forbiddan kills DD. It doesn't matter that I would be able to out her as scum, because she'd just win anyway.

[Goatrevolt]

My role is too well confirmed.

No, ONLY BY GOAT, which claimed tracker.

If I actually missed it, please point out where someone else confirmed you.

Cass semi-confirmed her with a roleblock as well. Are all 3 of us scum?

[Goatrevolt]

I honestly can't think of good pig roleblock flavor

Slipped a sedative in their drink and they sleep peacefully all night? I wouldn't get too hung up on flavor.

[Goatrevolt]

At least 2 players who have claimed to be a power role are scum. One of those is obviously darkdude.

Then one or two of the following are scum:

Me, Cass, Fonz, Forbiddan.

I know forbiddan is telling the truth about being a vig, and she is additionally partially confirmed by Cass.

I'm not a pig, I'm a goat.

From my point of view, either Cass or Fonz or both are scum. I think one of those two needs to be our lynch today, and either of those two have the ability to win the game tonight if they are left untouched as scum, especially if we mislynch.

I need to read back through and make a decision.

From a strictly role standpoint, doc makes less sense as a scum role than roleblocker. I also think Cass's "lynch Fonz then I'll claim tomorrow" thing was kind of shady, considering she didn't have any information on the Fonz at all. So right now, I'm leaning towards voting for Cass. I definitely want to give a thorough review before making a decision though.

[Goatrevolt]

Matin is very likely to be scum. My only hesitance to vote him is that if he's Ennui's buddy then we simply lose. Cass/Fonz as scum just have to shut down forbiddan's vig kill and then shoot someone else and it would be 2-2 going into the final day game over.

I'd rather lynch the scum out of Cass/Fonz for 2 reasons:

1. They don't make sense as Ennui's buddy
2. They both have roles to nullify the vig shot

If we lynch one of them as scum, then forbiddan can kill DD uninhibited and we still have a decent shot at winning the game.

Killing Matin basically makes it a coinflip of whether or not he's Ennui's buddy and I really don't like leaving it to chance like that.

[Goatrevolt]

Given what Ennui said though, isn't DD more likely to be Ennui's buddy? We are almost certain Matin is scum, we are certain DD is scum, why do we have to coinflip on Cass/Fonz?

Why do we have to coinflip on DD being Ennui's buddy?

Technically, neither are coinflips. There is evidence that gives more weight to certain results. It's not strictly guesswork here. I need to review the evidence on DD/Matin and how they fit with Ennui.

However, I think the evidence definitely points to Cass as scum more so than Fonz.

1. Fonz is a doctor. Either he false-claimed it, risking a counterclaim from anyone after him, or he's telling the truth. Although this setup does allow for a scum doc to make functional sense, it still seems more likely that a doctor is a pro-town role. Roleblocker makes so much more sense as a scum role.

2. Cass claimed that we needed to lynch The Fonz, heavily hinting at role information that would be revealed after he was dead. She was not taken up on that offer, and it turned out that her role information had absolutely nothing to do with Fonz. That's pretty shady.

So, I'm definitely leaning towards voting for Cass. I think there's a very good shot that she's scum here.

Also, note that Goat's claimed investigations provided us with no new information.

The only way I could have provided new information is if I had caught someone making a kill. I was able to verify forbiddan's claim, though.

None of us 3 (Fonz, Goat, Cass) have really strong claims to lean back on. You haven't successfully protected a kill yet, Cass hasn't made a successful roleblock on a kill yet, and I haven't successfully tracked anyone making a kill yet.

[Goatrevolt]

Eh, I'll vote Cass if you'll vote Cass, and if we are wrong we share the blame for damning the crew.

hahaha. No pressure right?

I'm not going to make any hasty decisions quite yet.

[Goatrevolt]

For those thinking of scum doctors and role blockers...

What do you think is more likely, a scum TRACKER, a role which has been proven to exist for one of the two scum pairs, or a new scum power role which doesn't necessarily balance the tracker...? I really can't see how one scum team with a tracker and the other with a doc or a blocker is more likely than two identical scum groups.

I don't see any reason why both scum teams have to be the same. There are ways to balance two scum teams without giving them identical roles.

This kind of discussion is just gaming the mod to determine whether he'd be the type of guy to make identical scum teams or mix them up. Personally, I think it'd be stupid to lynch me solely on unknown setup speculation.

[Goatrevolt]

I have a hard time seeing a scum doc to be honest, but I guess it's a fair point that he could be stretching the truth on his role. I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibilities that he has some sort of protection role as scum to shut down cross kills and vig kills.

I still want to reread both of you before making up my mind.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm going to bed. I'll finish rereading tomorrow. One thing to note is this:

three little pigs

Darkdude built his house out of straw. I think Forbiddan can blow his house down.

[Goatrevolt]

Wow, 5 pages this morning? I'm reading through it all right now, but I want to note something.

Darkdude is obviously lying. The only way he'd know if both scum groups had the same abilities is if he was part of the non-Ennui scum team, so when he says he's Ennui's scum buddy, that's lie number one. Who's going to counterclaim him anyway? "Actually, I'm Ennui's scum buddy, hah, counterclaimed DD. What now!" If someone wants to step up to say that be my guest.

His story about him losing the bulletproof vest is a moving tale, but why are we taking the word of a guaranteed scum in order to incriminate forbiddanlight, who has been semi-confirmed by two separate accounts? This is madness.

Darkdude claims that he's only doing this because he's already lost and wants to help the town out. How truly altruistic of you DD, but somehow I don't buy it. I think he's simply pushing for a way to get me lynched so that his scum buddy can save him with a doc/RB ability tonight and he can win. I'll ask again, why are we believing the words of scum who is clearly still looking for anyway he can to win this game?

@Fonz, Matin: How do you feel about lynching Goat then? We can maybe tell FL to vig DD tonight to confirm herself? Eh, I just don't know anymore...

Lynching me is not the key to winning here, if you're town. Lynching me simply because darkdude, confirmed scum, is telling you to do so is definitely not the key to winning.

[Goatrevolt]

Wrong. Logic fail.

I'm the godfather, and I know the setup contains 2 teams of identical scum pairs. I am the GF and Ennui was the Tracker. You claimed tracker, which was a semi-fake claim because you're actually the scum tracker with FL as the GF.

You miraculously know so much about the game's setup and the opposing scum team for being Ennui's partner. I don't buy it for a second.

This is nothing but a plea from dying scum to try to twist the outcome of the game into his favor one last time in hopes of winning. I seriously can't believe people are buying into this.

People would rather believe darkdude then forbiddanlight who has been confirmed in two separate ways? The town almost deserves to lose this game, seriously.

I'm going to go ahead and

Vote Cass

because I'm nearly certain she's DD's scum buddy at this point, trying to hammer home a mislynch on me to win based on DD's scum ramblings. I'm not seeing the pro-town motivation for that in the least bit.

[Goatrevolt]

I guess now we just have to cross our fingers and hope Cass is DD's buddy.

[Goatrevolt]

Awesome. Cleaner streets for our kids to grow up on. I love it.

[Goatrevolt]

That's actually hilarious that despite all the doubt...we really had Investigation immune NK immune scum.

To be honest, day 1 I honestly thought DarkDude was town. It wasn't until we came to night and Matin showed me his role that I realized he was scum.

I knew Ennui was scum the moment he mentioned multiple scum teams. I just had to push other avenues to get him lynched. Also, he claimed the same role as me, which made it quite obvious.

This game was a ton of fun. I thought I was dead that last day, especially after claiming Watcher/Tracker, but I figured a vanilla claim was as good as game over for me as well. DD was actually correct that both scum groups were identical, but I don't know how he would have known that.

Day 2 worked out perfect, because we could force down the easy CubsFan mislynch and then have darkdude die anyway once forbiddan shot him twice. It was like the absolute perfect scenario, especially since not once did either scum group double up on night kills or make cross kills.

[Goatrevolt]

Oh, and I could also watch/track and kill the same night.

Cass was making plans that were bad for us based on the assumption that scum couldn't do both. The reality is that scum COULD do both, but I couldn't shoot down her plans because that would be admitting I was scum. It was sad...

Cass, I think you played an excellent game, actually.. You just had to die because you were on our case .

[Goatrevolt]

Oh yeah, Cass definitely played best for the town in the end. I wish I had stuck to my guns with trusting her. lynching DD was our best play after all. I should have gone with my plan.

You would have lost if you lynched DD. Unless Cass got lucky with her roleblock.

[Goatrevolt]

You would have lost if you lynched DD. Unless Cass got lucky with her roleblock.

How do you figure that?

DD dies. He was en's partner. One kill that night, I'm forgoing my vig. Cass was ready to kill you, so she'd probably have RB'd you. Fonz would have protected me, likely. I don't think you'd get the kill.

If we had done it early on in the day, Cass would have probably roleblocked the Fonz. I would have submitted the kill on Cass. We could have snuck the kill through no problems.

[Goatrevolt]

The results I claimed were almost the truth.

I did track Ting because I thought he fit the profile of scum or a power role.

Night 2 I actually watched Darkdude to find the vig. I just claimed a track on forbiddan instead, because watching DD was kind of an anti-town way to use my role.

We killed LlamaFluff because he had Matin in his top 2 suspects and is a good player. We killed Kison because he was on the Ennui bandwagon, and so we didn't think that Darkdude would shoot him, and we wanted to avoid doubling up on kills.

I was wondering if you were call me out as scum forbiddan for killing Llama/Kison, who were both spies players.

[Goatrevolt]

~I couldn't say anything to keep me from going down, but my piece-of-crap scumbuddy who hopped on the wagon against me can go down too. And when you take him out-

shoot twice

.

We didn't miss that Llama.

[Goatrevolt]

Night 2 I actually watched Darkdude to find the vig. I just claimed a track on forbiddan instead, because watching DD was kind of an anti-town way to use my role.

Eh...you should have tracked me Night 1. If I were Ennui's partner you would have known then and there.

And tracking me isn't really anti town because everyone was suspicious of my claim.

We already knew you were Ennui's partner. It was just vastly to our advantage to force down a Cubsfan mislynch instead.

[Goatrevolt]

We already knew you were Ennui's partner. It was just vastly to our advantage to force down a Cubsfan mislynch instead.

But why track me Night 2 then?

I didn't. I watched you to see who targeted you. Forbiddan was the only one who did, thus she was the vig.

Fonz was obviously the doc when he was arguing with Cass. He obviously was a power role who had targeted people consistent with a pro-town outlook. I had no idea what Cass was because I thought she was implying that Fonz was scum through use of her role. I expected her to claim Watcher/Tracker and I was going to counterclaim her.

[Goatrevolt]

forbiddan, your vig shot can also finish off scum that have been hit by cross-fire. It was weak, but not useless.

I feel the setup was fairly balanced, to be honest. I'd say it was like 33/33/33% chance of any group winning. Perhaps the town had a slight advantage in that roleblocker + doc are really powerful in a setup where it's easy to roleblock a scum kill or doc someone to clear them (of at least 1 scum group).

The scum was woefully awful at NKing power roles. The only one hit was raider, who was admittedly very weak with 2 godfathers. The Fonz was always in our top 3 of people to NK, but we just never did it until that last night. I wish we had killed him over Kison, but I honestly expected DD to shoot The Fonz.

[Goatrevolt]

Yeah. I think 1 BPV per scumteam was balanced.

Like i said, with BPV all round, the vig is actually negative value for town.

Stoofer disagreed. Figured crosskills would have slanted it heavily in favor of town.

What might have worked, and it simply didn't occur to me until it was too late, was to have the vigilante be full strength and have the crosskills only affect arrests. But that also worried me in terms of giving town too much power. This was the compromise. Lots of roles that could block things and lots that could wear down the armor. I (and all the reviewers) thought crosskills in this would have really tilted the balance in favor of town.

There were no crosskills in this game, which I think may be skewing perception. The roleblocker was also a very poweful town role.

Despite no crosskills, the town was so close to winning. You were one vote away from lynching me and winning the game.

[Goatrevolt]

Take out the cop.

I mean, we figured it out without him...

Then that also weakens the scum by making Matin/DD vanilla.

[Goatrevolt]

Despite no crosskills, the town was so close to winning. You were one vote away from lynching me and winning the game.

Then darkie would have pressed the case on me. I would have been lynched after you were shown scum. There would be 2 kills that night unless Cass honestly thought I wasn't scum (not likely).

how would darkie have pressed the case on me when he was dead from your vig shot?

You lynch me. You shoot DD, and Matin is the obvious lynch the next day.

[Goatrevolt]

There were very few blocked crosskills at least partly because 18th precinct played in a way that told 14th precinct exactly who they were.

Ennui made it obvious he was scum before I had seen my partner's role or even talked with him.

DD only was obvious as scum after I saw Matin's role and realized that DD claiming bulletproof as a 1-shot NK immune godfather was a decent idea.

We had a huge leg up on the other scum team, and tried to milk it for all it was worth.

[Goatrevolt]

how would darkie have pressed the case on me when he was dead from your vig shot?

You lynch me. You shoot DD, and Matin is the obvious lynch the next day.

I get roleblocked, or Fonz protects, I get lynched for some godforsaken reason being linked to you.

That wouldn't have happened. Cass would have roleblocked DD. Fonz would have protected you.

[Goatrevolt]

DD only was obvious as scum after I saw Matin's role and realized that DD claiming bulletproof as a 1-shot NK immune godfather was a decent idea.

If Ennui survived better then I was planning for him to hunt down those who reacted scummy to my claim. But it didn't work out, obviously.

So do you guys think my claim was good or not?

It was a decent claim, but the whole "scum claiming early puts a spotlight on them and we'll eventually catch them later" thing is still true. I stand by everything I said about you on day 1.

The only issue with the claim was that it outed you to the other scum group. The other scum group only had to then do something like suggest you get shot with a vig twice and you were dead. If there hadn't been another scum group with equivalent roles, then it would have likely worked for you.

[Goatrevolt]

I want to thank Cicero for the awesome game. This is definitely one of the most fun games of mafia I've played. That final day was crazy, and I seriously couldn't make up my mind what I wanted to do...whether to push for Fonz or Cass. Our chance to win relied on us killing one of those two though.

Good job to Matin. I appreciated having a reliable scum buddy, and that hammer on Cass was like the perfect timing. We definitely should have planned for that . Can't argue with a perfect win though!

The town didn't play a great game, but I think Cass played pretty well. I read through her posts last night and was like, there's no way I can frame her with anything because she was so pro-town. It just so happened that the best pro-town play (agreeing with DD) looked scummy enough to force down the lynch. If we didn't force that mislynch right when we did we would have certainly lost if the day dragged on. I think The Fonz looked pretty pro-town as well, and his doc claim and targets made sense and fit with his play.

Thanks all for the great game. I enjoyed every minute of it.

[Goatrevolt]

I love how I am very carefully excluded from any complimenting here out of the last townies. It's fine, I know my play sucked, but I'd also like opinions on how to improve it.

I went out of my way to specifically exclude you. I wanted to make sure there were no possible positive references made here .

I didn't think your play was that bad, but you definitely trusted me a bit too much. You probably shouldn't have taken my "I'm a goat not a pig" defense at face value.

[Goatrevolt]

Another random thing: I noticed that town didn't seem quite accepting of the fact that it would need Darkdude on its wagon in order to lynch scum at all on the final day.

Yeah, I could tell people were starting to come to realizations that darkdude was basically a townie for all purposes on the final day. I had to change gears and try to push the idea that Matin was Ennui's scum buddy, not Darkdude.

If people came to the conclusion that Darkdude was Ennui's scum buddy, then Matin automatically becomes the correct lynch. I was planning on going through and basically strawmanning a case on how Matin was Ennui's buddy, not DD, and push attention back on Cass/Fonz.

[Goatrevolt]

I still hold that 80% of the time someone who does something like what Darkdude did is town. I hold that this is a special scenario, because honestly, how often is someone a godfather with 1 shot NK immunity? And even if he is scum, I hold that lynching a player like that day 1 is a bad idea, because you'll eventually figure it out, much like we did. There was no reason to lynch him day 1, we thought of a better plan to deal with him, which was popping him in the face with two shots from FL's shotty.

Also, I don't think Matin would have been lynched day 2. I think people would have been persuaded to lynch either Cubsfan or DD instead. Also, that's exactly the reason you got NKed anyway Llama. I could tell you were probably going to be pushing for Matin, and that seemed like bad news.

<3 Kison. Sorry for putting you in the slammer.

[Goatrevolt]

I felt bad for Cass. She was working so hard at the end and was so close to having everything figured out and then got speed lynched while she was not around.

[Goatrevolt]

I realized it. I was all over it, too. But unfortunately I had to get offline right at that time and the others didn't see it...

I saw it.