TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[chennisden]

I know it sounds egotistical but I also think that if my slot went along with one of the many wagons that just popped up along the day, said wagon would've went through

On the other hand, I think that Johnny wagon would have gone through D2 or D3 at most regardless given his lack of presence.

Maybe. But I think I'm on the mark here, along with a good portion of the rest of the game, and I don't think I'd be on the mark if said D2/D3 wagon had to go through.

[chennisden]

Sorry Shirou but I think I'm going to be a heel in the mud here even though I think Auro/Flopz nearly always wins the game, mostly because my ego would never recover if I was wrong

[chennisden]

I'd like to reread the game before Johnny wagon gained traction and see how people positioned themselves around it and me.

[chennisden]

auro i would like your reads right now

it doesn't have to be on everyone if there's people you just dont have an opinion on rn, but i'd like reads + a little bit of explanation rn

[chennisden]

Sorry Shirou but I think I'm going to be a heel in the mud here even though I think Auro/Flopz nearly always wins the game, mostly because my ego would never recover if I was wrong

Do you mean you'll engage with them?

I'm fine with it but this is like, opening the door to scum victory when even if for some miracle Flopz/Auro are both town, we still have 2 elims left and a solid mechanical play I described

It's like, beyond suboptimal in my opinion to engage them because if I was scum in their shoes, I would rejoice anyone trying to interact with me, because it gives me a chance to disturb the collective thought process with constant bullshit, parroting, strawman, misrepping, derailing, etc.

I'm mostly going to be rereading the relevant parts of Day 1 in the next few (irl) days. But I won't completely ignore them.

Also you've probably gathered this already but my playstyle is a very low-confidence playstyle. My reads jump all over the place. When someone's 80% confident X is scum I'm only, say, 60% confident. (Assuming a baseline of 50%.) It's just that the reads I hold onto tend to be accurate and influence the game enough to get a lim there.

Based on D1 I think this is a read I'm holding onto pretty tightly, but I'd just like to give myself more information to parse through + more chances for me to re-evaluate before I actually commit to anything.

[chennisden]

auro i would like your reads right now

it doesn't have to be on everyone if there's people you just dont have an opinion on rn, but i'd like reads + a little bit of explanation rn

AL!town Flopz!town[but meh?] Lilith!scum. I do have w o r k right now, will detail later today. My team's pitching in soon, I'll relay their thoughts too.

do you not have a read on me

[chennisden]

Auro the fact you seem so resigned about your lim is not making me happy

[chennisden]

If you're scum you can do whatever you want, although for the sake of site meta I guess you should fight harder or something. Try to rip through dangerous slots instead of get killed 5 days after D2 start instead of, idk, 2 days after D2 start. Only way u win is by challenging me to a rap battle and winning, and I dont think ur gonna win a rap battle

If you're town you absolutely have to stop being resigned to your death and just thinking "o well town will figure it out hurr durr," and the fact you're acting so ambivalent makes me think you're scum

[chennisden]

If by any chance we derail our votes to people outside of Auro/Flopz first, we will give them the opportunity to WIFOM:

"but what if there's people in the townblock? or Mena / AL partners? or etc etc etc".

While if we get them out of the way first, we either win the game or get confirmation about how correct our townblock is.

It's a no-brainer to me. Too much of something usually backfires, this includes even dedication to solving in this case.

There's a point where enough is enough in my opinion.

To be clear there's almost no way I vote outside of Auro at the end of today, and I know this is probably pointless and Auro just wins the game regardless of whatever alignment flopz is, but just in case I'd like to be in a better position d3 if we dont win

[chennisden]

It's very rare for me to adopt the "no engage policy", but I do feel that it's needed here at least from me because I've nothing to gain from interacting with them.

I've re:read the game, thought about it quite a bit, looked at their posts, the VCs, considered our mechanical advantage, and to me it's a question of getting this out of the way which in most cases wins the game.

If it doesn't win the game, at the very least it confirms scum in the town block which is already another important piece of info.

!Reminder!
It could be too late by that confirmation.

@Chennis: +town unless I find an explanation for your strategy of coming around on the townblock later in the day, which means you'd have to force a trajectory against it at some point which hasn't happened yet?

To be clear, I came around on the townblock by nature of "probably just not scum" rather than "I actively townread super and koba's play!" Although jqoiza is just actively towny

[chennisden]

I'm fine with my death because of the consensus algorithmic approach that would otherwise leave me to a lylo lim which is gonna suck, and I'd rather have my flip provide backing to my reads.

Or.. or.. you can come find scum and help us perfect this game

[chennisden]

Let's start... "My role PM says 'Hi Auro you're scum, and your partners are Johnny and [...],' please lim the third instead of me after D2 oh wait you cant"

[chennisden]

Or.. or.. you can come find scum and help us perfect this game

Which I am doing today, no?

I'm fine with my death

disagrees

[chennisden]

By the way the only situation that loses the game here, I think, is 2/3 scum in {Shirou, Menalque, Autumn}, which would mean I'd be embarrassingly wrong on 3/3 reads

[chennisden]

By the way the only situation that loses the game here, I think, is 2/3 scum in {Shirou, Menalque, Autumn}, which would mean I'd be embarrassingly wrong on 3/3 reads

Wait 3/3??? I'm so good at math that 1+1=3 apparently

[chennisden]

I'm fine with my death disagrees

Exclusive from "I'll hunt down scumz today"

I don't believe for a second that you'd be resigned to your fate if you were town.

[chennisden]

Auro I love you but not your alignment

[chennisden]

I'm so sorry you had to roll scum in this game

[chennisden]

I don't believe for a second that you'd be resigned to your fate if you were town.

I have precedence Rapier U-Pick go search it up

Well maybe dont just do it again?

[chennisden]

Oh wait mbmb to do that again you must be town

[chennisden]

(by the way if it's not clear i'm mostly memeing, im a freaking SPAMMER for crying out loud)

[chennisden]

I don't believe for a second that you'd be resigned to your fate if you were town.

I have precedence Rapier U-Pick go search it up

Well maybe dont just do it again?

What's the

point

? Solving >>> surviving when survival is temporary and doesn't really matter much as opposed to solving when consensus is against your reads.

Hi

So once there was a game where ppl just thought I was scum and were too busy shitting up the thread D1 to actually, y'know, vote me

And I, with my ability to outspam any player in said game, just prevented them from limming me, and all this WITHOUT giving into town consensus and just voting the easiest slot to survive

Eventually town came around onto my correct scumread which I had been pushing and angling for since the beginning of the day, and on D2 the town was in a good position

By the way this game is "Black Flag Nightless" if I remember correctly

[chennisden]

Btw shirou is the prime example of why replacements break the game and I think it's pretty ridiculous the site has such a lenient culture with replacing out

[chennisden]

People townreading you is irrelevant to me unless they can make a convincing case that you're town, which I haven't seen yet.

I didnt sit around waiting for someone else to case me town, no I didnt

[chennisden]

(by the way if it's not clear i'm mostly memeing, im a freaking SPAMMER for crying out loud)

I dunno Chennis, I did agree with Firebringer that I don't see you as a spammer necessarily.

But I suppose you're spammy, and can be a spammer in some games, but being a bit spammy doesn't directly translate to being effectively a spammer in some games?

I think we need to theory discuss the functions, responsibilities and meaning of the title spammer...

wtf

you might look at the postcounts and think, "chennis is in the MIDDLE of the playerlist? what a casual." but you're not considering the most important thing

who has the most USELESS posts in this game? who has the highest useless post : useful post ratio?

you think I need something like POSTS to spam the game? im just on a different level from you all

[chennisden]

there's a level of paranoia in town that's like "NO Im town you BETTER TOWNREAD ME" even when said town isnt under threat of dying, and this is a) present in lilith and b) hard for most scum to fake, I think

[chennisden]

No, I would objectively case why Lilith is a godtier scum player if she turns out to be scum here

I'll even give a quick example of something

The fact that Lilith focus now is questioning Auro inconsistencies but not immediately voting would be very good scum play in my opinion. Lilith simply could engage me and get me to say for her to sheep me, or she could act indignant in Auro still scum reading her and insta-vote, but instead she still seems to be trying to sort him to solidify her mind.

I don't think that much of my scum game, but if I was scum here, I wouldn't have that patience at all of perfectly replicating cautious town process. I would just vote Auro and work from the point of accusing him in most cases, although I do the same quick votes as town so I guess it's NAI to me, but still I think in many angles Lilith is playing an amazing scum game if she's scum.

Actually would like to point out that you don't even have to be very good at scum to do what you're describing

It's really easy to present cautiousness (and advantageous to actually BE cautious!) as scum, I think. I agree faking it is hard, but when I display cautiousness I don't really

fake

it, there's a high level of genuineness there because I really do need to make sure how I'm angling myself doesn't end up backfiring on me later. And I'm not amazing at scum, there's definitely better scum than me in this lobby. Idk lilith's meta but "better than chennis" is a LOW LOW bar for scumplay

[chennisden]

Think Johnny was basically confirmed scum by the time he did that

[chennisden]

fwiw before Shirou subbed in Lilith was the one who really entertained the Johnny scumread and didnt let it fade from collective town consciousness

of course my Game History might be wrong here, correct me if it is

[chennisden]

Btw shirou is the prime example of why replacements break the game and I think it's pretty ridiculous the site has such a lenient culture with replacing out

I don't necessarily disagree with this, I had something similar happen to me with okapoka replacing in a game I had as scum considered virtually won because I had setup the stage for the last day be Tunneled Town vs Pocketing Partner vs Sacrificial Lamb, but hmm...what happened surprised me a bit although I predicted it a bit when the replacement took place.

However, elaborate?

I think scum's plan has been entirely shattered in half by the replaceouts in general, and particularly by FB->you. If I were scum, I'd have planned to take control of the thread after the dusts of the toxicity cleared up and had my way with slots like koba(aka mathblade) or firebringer(aka you) or whatever,

especially because everyone was on the table at one point

.

[chennisden]

Actually would like to point out that you don't even have to be very good at scum to do what you're describing

I guess I partially agree on this as long as we also agree on this:

Most people don't seem to enjoy or put that much effort into being scum, therefore although it's arguably not that difficult, in practice it's rarer to encounter those kind of behaviors because scum often just get greedy, impatient, low-effort etc.

I would consider Lilith here as very good scum play either way especially considering other points, but dunno, to each their opinion.

You're right, I don't disagree that Lilith would be good as scum here, but the reason I think this is because of the town paranoia

[chennisden]

Like how much paranoia is enough?? Is it too much? Or are you not defending yourself enough? Etc. These are the kinds of hard questions I think scum would have to ask themselves if they tried to pull that off

Which is why "Lilith scum" just doesn't seem likely to me. I'll take people's word for it that she can be good as scum, but pulling this and a variety of other easier things that compound together to be extremely difficult is also extremely unlikely, compared to "I rolled town with a 70% chance and can get toneread as town yippee"

[chennisden]

Not all scumhunting techniques require direct engagement, and sometimes direct engagement can work *against* your efforts to read someone when they're competent at responding and carrying out conversations~

Wow, this just describes the way I feel about your slot

[chennisden]

Yup Auro's insistence that there's no plan after Auro Flopz just makes me think he's scum

[chennisden]

I also also dislike Chenn’s attempts to take more cred than I think he deserves for johnny!wagon

can you elaborate on why you think i've taken more credit than i deserved?

[chennisden]

Oh, I also think scum probably bussed which makes me more suspicious of (shirou/chenn/AL)

yes, i decided to start bussing on page 30, of the BLACK FLAG game, instead of idk pushing onto the super menalque conflict

im just so good at scum that my master plan is to kill my own partner and then my very good scumbuddy shirou, who i didnt even know would be shirou until way later, can coast to endgame with me when the probability of people going "OMG BUS!!!" in this pl is over 9000

[chennisden]

i have no interest in killing you shirou

you read the game, for crying out loud, and you KNOW that these kind of propositions aren't going to be effective

[chennisden]

shirou i think the chances of you being scum are extraordinarily low and i also think the chances of auro scum are high, but i also think these kinds of propositions are a) anti-town and b) only going to discourage people from voting the wagon

[chennisden]

because I still think the two most obviously correct elims today are (AL, math) and your positioning today is strongly avoiding that

which is not to say this can't be town!you reaching a divergent conclusion. but it's not helping me feel good about you, especially given your reversal on math!slot and that you don't seem as eager to lay down your life for you mech!win plan as you claimed to be yesterday

ding dong i think ur wrong

[chennisden]

im back to thinking al was just lhf

[chennisden]

i guess the reason these kinds of propositions make me nervous is because there's almost always something wrong with them. there's a reason they're there and it's usually because "scum has

this might not be the case here because idk this seems too

soon

to fit said description. but i still think there's no way we finish the game today (irl time).

[chennisden]

auro's at less than e-1 right

[chennisden]

Chennis, would you consider scum!Lilith strongly if I and Flopz get limmed in succession?

i would mostly be looking in {shirou lilith al}, i guess

[chennisden]

auro i legitimately dont get your play as either alignment here

[chennisden]

altho if ur scum i cant really fault you, since the jig is up

[chennisden]

Let's start with Chennis and Fire.

Let's start with Chennis and Fire.

C - their push on you is... a stretch. Does not seem genuine.

Fire comes from a place of real aloofness and honesty. I don't see scum saying out loud that they don't wanna disappoint their team this early

i want to note this interaction

[chennisden]

auro i legitimately dont get your play as either alignment here

Which part of my play aren't you understanding?

every part

[chennisden]

auro i legitimately dont get your play as either alignment here

Which part of my play aren't you understanding?

if ur scum ur just hoping that "ok kill me idc" gets you not killed not only RIGHT NOW, but also NOT FOR THE REST OF THE GAME. that's like... i dunno, maybe i'd actually do that as scum, but it's not something i'd expect to work

you're basically going "Dooooomed" the same way johnny is, and if you're scum who's already given up sure I guess, but if you're town wtf

[chennisden]

every part

1. I'm in a position where my own lim is virtually guaranteed to me in the next four elims.
2. I have a scumread that everyone else is townreading, which I am pretty confident on.
3. It seems like the current consensus of elims that it will mostly be me and lhf that get limmed.
4. Follows from (1) and (2) that momentary survival is unimportant in contrast to convincing people to see what I see.

Any part in specific?

1. if you're town, hell no it's not
2. im guessing its lilith but the fact i cant even be sure is not a good sign
3. then fight this by BEING ALIVE
4. this assumes you're right and also going to die.

[chennisden]

you're basically going "Dooooomed" the same way johnny is, and if you're scum who's already given up sure I guess, but if you're town wtf

What do you expect me to do as town? Throw pages of AtE that killing me is daft?

no, maybe to fight it

[chennisden]

with idk this thing called, what's the word, "Logic"

[chennisden]

you're trying to look as though you're anti consensus except you're offering nothing that's not consensus

[chennisden]

you're trying to look as though you're anti consensus except you're offering nothing that's not consensus

AL!town, Flopz!town and Lilith!scum are all anti-consensus, I feel. Do you disagree? Although I'm weaker on the first two.

I'm gonna be honest

the fact that Auro still suspects me when I'm proposing a BoP on him, when he should know he's town and therefore this is a stupid play from me, is another very confusing point in world where it's town!Auro

I still haven't stated any explicit suspicion on you, I just said I'm OK with Auro->Shirou->Lilith I agree with Mena on following up on your deal -- as "you know I'm town because I wouldn't make a deal otherwise so pls get off" is stupid -- I'm fine with that because Lilith is in the lim order.

i can say auro!town, shirou!scum but that doesn't make me anticonsensus

i can't see your work

[chennisden]

meh whatever

before i really decide either way about your alignment, id like to see something from math autumn and flopz at least

[chennisden]

Of course it would be better in long-term to let the game play out, maybe even go for AL/Math today as most people seem to want, and just later finish with you/Flopz if it didn't win the game.

It's much more safeproof than this. Am I the kind of person that makes such a boring decision though? No.

I'm not sitting here for 2 ~ 6 more weeks for a game that I feel there's little chance I'm wrong. Time is my most valued asset. The unique thing that you can't really buy, trade or create in this world is time.

I'm fine giving myself a mechanically weaker position if it means it does save me weeks.

If you mean "short-term" as in "you're only thinking of the consequences to this game", I don't care about that.

I don't care about winning as scum anymore and if people would take those propositions more seriously when I'm town, that would be a win in my book.

It's not common for me to make those propositions I think though.

Please stop doing this. I play forum mafia because it allows me to play the game at my own pace, and given my RL commitments sometimes that happens over the course of several days. In general it also feels like you have been brushing my points aside and just trying to get me to do what you want to, which is not necessarily scum-motivated but really bothers me.

I need time to reconsider Auro and discuss with my team. I do think Auro's daystart is weird and his push on lilith is poorly articulated. I will probably do a pass-through of the game tonight with a look at the following teams:

{Autumn/Flopz}
{Auro/Flopz}
{Autumn/Firebringer(Shirou)}*

* the third one is my paranoid tinfoil and is why I'm not willing to entertain your proposal to rush things. I'm partial to the Firebringer slot in light of the Johnny flip, but your sheer insistence on keeping Autumn Leaves alive has skeeved me out a little bit as well as my teammate Hercule, who I want to discuss with further after I have the chance to review the game.

I hope you enjoy your birthday but I will be taking my time with this game.

ditto

[chennisden]

i will say that my paranoia tinfoil is autumn/shirou.

[chennisden]

i also think this day is mostly gonna be worthless for reading anyone and we should be focusing on d1, because while johnny didnt post a lot i still do think he probably spewed p hard

[chennisden]

That’s how I normally hide as scum.

No way math could be scum, who is his partner?

Requiring a solve when we only need one to win is silly.

It's precisely because you only need one scum to win that you entertain multiple solves here

if you think X/Y team is possible, and so is Z/Y, you go for player Y here for higher odds of victory.

entertaining multiple teams and what are the keystone slots is the correct play in this gamestate rather than just sticking your guns to an one-sided read.

holy people are actually using keystone as a term now

[chennisden]

i dont like the deal, and even if i vote auro today, it does not mean i'm willing to go through with it

[chennisden]

no

[chennisden]

i will be the heel in the mud and refuse to let this go through until we sort everything out b/c i think this is a one way ticket to loseville if auro, by some magic spell, is town

[chennisden]

i will be very disappointed if that is the case. but, as ive learned from my -1 years of life, disappointment is inevitable.

[chennisden]

If this is the deal, anyone resisting it within the townbloc is also scum if there’s only one person resisting it

w h a t

[chennisden]

i generally prefer not to play with "x is scum if y is town because x was really really sure y is scum," because that isnt how mafia works

[chennisden]

I strongly predict that (shirou, chenn) is the exact team and it makes a lot of sense with the way that shirou entered and made a big deal of being good at reading chenn and then inserted him into the townbloc solve thing

i strongly predict ur clowning

[chennisden]

I strongly predict that (shirou, chenn) is the exact team and it makes a lot of sense with the way that shirou entered and made a big deal of being good at reading chenn and then inserted him into the townbloc solve thing

yes we three way bussed at the beginning and middle of d1

[chennisden]

If you have a slot going “I will self vote tomorrow if I’m wrong” and then they don’t do that, you’re throwing if you don’t elim them

birds of a feather

[chennisden]

I strongly predict that (shirou, chenn) is the exact team and it makes a lot of sense with the way that shirou entered and made a big deal of being good at reading chenn and then inserted him into the townbloc solve thing

yes we three way bussed at the beginning and middle of d1

Yes

This is entirely plausible and shirou has done similar shit before

In our very first game together he and another scumbuddy both fakeclaimed cop where the claim meant one had to be scum

yes but I, CHENNISDEN, who plays scum pretty cautiously and doesn't really like doing insane things, decide to HARDBUS MY TEAMMATE, have my other teammate BUS ME, and instead of thriving on the misdirection caused by the super/koba/menalque/al situation, just push EACH OTHER TO DEATH when super could've died and we could've pinned the bus on one of our scummates AFTER the mislim went through instead of sacrificing our dear friend johnny for NOTHING

[chennisden]

EVEN IF you think this wifom is SO EFFECTIVE or whatever, it STILL is a thousand times dumber than just... pinning a tough d1 mislim on a teammate and bussing then

[chennisden]

I strongly predict that (shirou, chenn) is the exact team and it makes a lot of sense with the way that shirou entered and made a big deal of being good at reading chenn and then inserted him into the townbloc solve thing

yes we three way bussed at the beginning and middle of d1

Yes

This is entirely plausible and shirou has done similar shit before

In our very first game together he and another scumbuddy both fakeclaimed cop where the claim meant one had to be scum

oh wait also

my scumbuddy SHIROU, who has big scum balls, did not join the game until AFTER said midgame bus

[chennisden]

have my other teammate BUS ME

To be fair, I think Firebringer would be pretty happy planning to stage a rap battle as scum theater.

the question isn't "can fb/shirou and chennis do this," the question is WHY

[chennisden]

Chennis, let me make something clear:

I've, intentionally messed up the gamestate now with my actions. You can hate me for that I suppose, but even if the Auro wagon doesn't go through, Mena will now focus on [Shirou/Chennis] that this whole theater to gather town points.

Is it a questionable read? Yes, but I doubt you'll change a scum read on you by arguing with that person directly.

The best way to defuse the bomb I've implemented in this game currently is to exactly make the Auro wagon happen today, and give less ammunition for scum to angle [Shirou, Chennis] if you believe I'm town. If you believe I'm scum, following the wagon is also the correct choice to force my hand on D3.

If you think this is the same gamestate that we had in the initial D2, it's not.

I intentionally burned much of the "social credit" of my slot through my interactions/actions in the last pages. From a slot people were a bit doubtful, but comfortable with, I became an active source of suspicious.

I implemented a bomb and am giving you as well the method to defuse it, and saying "do it?", a jerk move arguably, but still likely the correct move.

I'm essentially another LHF if Auro doesn't happen today and town is going to lose focus on more important slots either way with my presence. Consider voting Auro.

bleh what's auro at

if i'm not hammering i'll consider it

[chennisden]

VOTE: auro

[chennisden]

sorry if you're town, auro, but i really don't think this is on the rest of us if it goes through

[chennisden]

we've given you dozens of chances to engage us and you really haven't taken them. and a thousand other things that i'm sure we all know

[chennisden]

we've given you dozens of chances to engage us and you really haven't taken them. and a thousand other things that i'm sure we all know

I'm sad that you say this.

yeah this was a bit unfair, and i apologize for this regardless of your alignment

[chennisden]

man these last n pages have given me reason to doubt my initial read

[chennisden]

I think if people are going to quicklim me and then say that I ignored everyone / didn't take any chance to engage with anyone I will be quite disappointed myself. I feel like I've been doing that sufficiently.

i will say that i dont think you've been exploring the motivations of what people have been doing this game. i think there's a lot of good stuff to call out that you

should've been calling out

, at least from my pov. in no way did i mean that you were playing poorly or whatever, just that i thought it was unfortunate there were things i expected to happen and didnt see if you were town

[chennisden]

auro can i get your read on shirou?

[chennisden]

i will say that i dont think you've been exploring the motivations of what people have been doing this game. i think there's a lot of good stuff to call out that you should've been calling out, at least from my pov. in no way did i mean that you were playing poorly or whatever, just that i thought it was unfortunate there were things i expected to happen and didnt see if you were town

I simply think I view the game very differently than you are.

auro can i get your read on shirou?

This will be spicy: town

then why allow two mislims to go thru?

[chennisden]

yes, you seem very resigned to me?

[chennisden]

why not start with "half the playerlist isnt here and hasnt checked in guys chill with the speed??" do you really think we're going to be in the best position for d3/d4 if you don't at least try to delay it and let people like mathblade and flopz chime in?

[chennisden]

you might not believe me when i say this, and that's fine by me, but i was actively looking for reasons to doubt my scumread on you and wouldn't have voted for you. i questioned myself and asked if it was too easy for you to be the partner even as johnny flipped red. i would probably not have voted for you, or not as fast, at least, if i got that

[chennisden]

why not start with "half the playerlist isnt here and hasnt checked in guys chill with the speed??" do you really think we're going to be in the best position for d3/d4 if you don't at least try to delay it and let people like mathblade and flopz chime in?

Obviously

I think you should chill with the speed! I

want

to delay it and have my teammates pitch in, too!

so why're you just sitting here and going "alright well i guess im dead " instead of delaying it??

[chennisden]

Again you're just expecting me to generically "fight the wagon if you're town!!" with "LOGIC!" but I really don't know what that would entail when I already conceded that the logic isn't the problem with a lot of the case.

ive felt the same way about the reads on my slot!! like, "yeah ok i know i COULD do this as scum" i think the main factor is just "ok cool i mean i could do this as scum but also i could as town, here's why i think what you're describing differs from my townplay..."

[chennisden]

why not start with "half the playerlist isnt here and hasnt checked in guys chill with the speed??" do you really think we're going to be in the best position for d3/d4 if you don't at least try to delay it and let people like mathblade and flopz chime in?

Obviously

I think you should chill with the speed! I

want

to delay it and have my teammates pitch in, too!

so why're you just sitting here and going "alright well i guess im dead " instead of delaying it??

Okay and how would I be delaying it?

If there was X method to delay it I'd be very very interested in delaying it as scum much more than town? I don't resign as scum. I was scum in a near mechanical loss and I still tried to fight it just for the kicks (of course, we still lost, mechanics)

i don't think you could've done it NOW but i think you could've done it anytime from a long time ago to a short while ago

[chennisden]

i dunno. maybe it's not fair that i'm asking you to fight to the end. but i think you're pretty invested in this game as well, no?

[chennisden]

meh nah

UNVOTE:

[chennisden]

i want to look at flopz before we continue.

[chennisden]

i also think flopz is more likely than auro to be scum

[chennisden]

i don't particularly want to be forced to make a play i'm not ready to.

[chennisden]

also if i do end up voting auro i want hammer

[chennisden]

Did no one notice Math's pop in to intent to hammer?!

i did

[chennisden]

see the reason i'm not voting you right now is because a) i want hammer (we already established that i'm the best spammers, and better spammers make for better hammers), and b) i dont really want to allow mathblade and flopz to continue to slinker away

[chennisden]

see the reason i'm not voting you right now is because a) i want hammer (we already established that i'm the best spammers, and better spammers make for better hammers), and b) i dont really want to allow mathblade and flopz to continue to slinker away

by the way if anyone contests that im the best spammer they're getting absolutely DESTROYED

[chennisden]

dear god why can't we iso 4 people at once wtf

[chennisden]

assuming auro is town i'm at mathblade/flopz, and i want to see if im bullshitting here

[chennisden]

auro u JUST GOT UNVOTED are u asking for me to vote u again???

[chennisden]

challenging my spammer supremacy smh

gn auro, hopefully u reflect on ur BLASPHEMY

[chennisden]

Chennis, any particular reason you use a Pichu as avi?

By the way now that I think about it, I may have played with you in one of your first games on site, I had forgot it was actually you back then.

It was a game where me vs RC had...a nasty fall off in late game, but I was scum.

I used to play SSBU and use Pichu (until he got nerfed stupid hard), but now I use it because it kind of has become part of what I'm known for as a player

I think I was there, but that was one of my not-as-early games onsite

In fact maybe it wasn't you...?

I remember it being a pair of pichus...

Hmm, I used to have a good memory, what happened with me...

This is a different pichu avi, I used to be a pair of pichus so that was me

[chennisden]

@Mena What makes you confident we'll have enough support for the shirou elim? Even if I go along with it, and math and you will presumably vote there, and he'll self vote, but others didn't seem particularly interested in taking the deal

I need mena to answer this too.

I think that at least (joqiza, lili) are town who wouldn't throw if a deal like that has been done

Did you even ask them? I'm pretty sure joqiza explicitly said he wouldn't do the deal

VOTE: shirou

@Chennis

This is what I talked about

I said you'll regret it most likely. There's nothing but chaos from here btw.

But I hate indecision so I guess I'm fine with this.

oh my fucking god

[chennisden]

Couple of things to say before I go into the Shirou proposition

First, Auro scumread me for not being part of the Johnny wagon and joing a vanity wagon instead while then having his own vanity wagon by voting for me. He also has 180'd his read and is back to TR me and idk what he even believes at this point. Auro is plenty scummy from my pov.

I also do not like Chenn+Shirou and think there's a good chance of a scumteam here and there's been quite a few meh things about Shirou's play that I want to talk about (with Hop's help):

Shirou hard townreads Chenn for like no reason and both Chenn/Shirou's votes on the Johnny wagon were bad - Chenn was first/not seriously pushing Johnny and Shirou only joined the wagon after it became clearly leading to a lim.

Shirou's saying that Shirou/Chenn/Math + Auro/Flopz is one pool where there's 2 scum at one point based on the townblock then ALSO say that if me and Auro flip town they'd be more interested in pushing in the townblock afterwards. Completely ignoring Chenn there.

Chenn also immediately refused voting Shirou out as well and their trajectory on agreeing here is so bad.

Also Hop says Johnny has a history of bussing partners and then Johnny never actually voted on Chenn is a bit bleh

Tho after Shirou is all but guaranteeing they'll self-vote if there's a D3, I see no reason to join this as it's two bird one stone.

VOTE: Auro

Flopz have u ever considered that your read (and everyone else's read) on Shirou is just absolute shit

[chennisden]

yes we decided to three way bus

[chennisden]

all of us are just THAT BIG BALL

[chennisden]

it's like "omg what chennis is doing in the moment COULD be construed as scum if you bend over 180 degrees so let me do exactly that!!" yes im scum and NOW, D2, is my MASTER PLAN and EVERYTHING that happened in D1 was just MISDIRECTION

[chennisden]

@Chennis

If you've noticed clearly now that my slot is getting limmed if we don't do Auro, and that it just gives more leeway for scum!Flopz to get away, can you place your vote on Auro?

We may not get a third opportunity, since this is already the second one.

VOTE: auro

[chennisden]

this is faster than i wanted it to be, but if we're gonna go fast let's not let d1 shit repeat

[chennisden]

chennis can NEVER BE TOWN

if he catches scum D1 he's just bussing

if he's annoyed ppl are scumreading him for shit reasons it's just because he's playing the LONG GAME of misdirection

[chennisden]

Fucking hell chenn

wait shit was that hammer

[chennisden]

wtf wtf

[chennisden]

Fucking hell chenn

wait shit was that hammer

I think so, we'll find out ig

yeah shirou unvoted

[chennisden]

or voted you, i dunno

[chennisden]

in big bold letters

WE ARE AT E-1

[chennisden]

that was a good pagetop if i say so myself.

[chennisden]

Pichus are ineherently evil dear Chennis.

Such foul-looking creatures could never roll a green pm card.

please, my pfp is like 50% green and 0% red

[chennisden]

oh wait i got it

I rolled YELLOW

i might not have a plan as scum but i simply CANNOT be town

[chennisden]

What are you talking about, im not SCUM, im YAWFIA

[chennisden]

What are you talking about, im not SCUM, im YAWFIA

ur fucking kidding me

[chennisden]

Hopkirk said "*Hopkorn it"

lmao

[chennisden]

this is faster than i wanted it to be, but if we're gonna go fast let's not let d1 shit repeat

yup

like, this isn't bragging or anything, but I think one of the reasons as scum my plans work out sometimes is because I can just...somehow "feel" the room temperature to know what to expect next.

Probably everyone can do it though, I don't think it should be that hard.

But yeah now there's nothing waiting for us but hell if we don't do the chain. Sorry if I'm wrong.

should've expected this not gonna lie

[chennisden]

i was thinking how hilarious it'd be if the scumteam was me/auro or shirou/auro rn

[chennisden]

i think its wrong of u to have fun playing mafia at all, i dont think fun is allowed in this game

[chennisden]

"scum!Shirou offered his head in a silver plate when everyone was comfortable with him on Day 2 opening, just so that he could get the super hard miselimination of Auro, a player no one town read, but you see, that's where the plan begins, because now that all the attention is on him in D3, he's gonna talk his way out of the self-vote for 3 days straight".

I could see how this does make sense if Auro was a threatening slot to a team of Shirou/Chennis, but like...Auro was focusing on Lilith...

But I digress. I do understand it's hard to see the flaws on the reasoning when you're uninformed, just as me/you may have been overlooking the flaws on a case of scum!Auro, but I can't help but find the situation intriguing.

no we're obviously scum, and we're trying to get a scummies nomination by playing this super tight game and wowing everyone by winning in this tense atmosphere where people are lolreading us

[chennisden]

Couple of things to say before I go into the Shirou proposition

First, Auro scumread me for not being part of the Johnny wagon and joing a vanity wagon instead while then having his own vanity wagon by voting for me. He also has 180'd his read and is back to TR me and idk what he even believes at this point. Auro is plenty scummy from my pov.

I also do not like Chenn+Shirou and think there's a good chance of a scumteam here and there's been quite a few meh things about Shirou's play that I want to talk about (with Hop's help):

Shirou hard townreads Chenn for like no reason and both Chenn/Shirou's votes on the Johnny wagon were bad - Chenn was first/not seriously pushing Johnny and Shirou only joined the wagon after it became clearly leading to a lim.

Shirou's saying that Shirou/Chenn/Math + Auro/Flopz is one pool where there's 2 scum at one point based on the townblock then ALSO say that if me and Auro flip town they'd be more interested in pushing in the townblock afterwards. Completely ignoring Chenn there.

Chenn also immediately refused voting Shirou out as well and their trajectory on agreeing here is so bad.

Also Hop says Johnny has a history of bussing partners and then Johnny never actually voted on Chenn is a bit bleh

Tho after Shirou is all but guaranteeing they'll self-vote if there's a D3, I see no reason to join this as it's two bird one stone.

VOTE: Auro

Flopz have u ever considered that your read (and everyone else's read) on Shirou is just absolute shit

In particular a) if we needed misdirection, we had PLENTY OF THAT on D1, b) even if we decide to bus Johnny instead of let anything else go through for some reason, we CANNOT bus or allow self elim d2, c) adding onto the last idea, we can easily line up 4 mislims without doing anything d) yall apparently suck ASS at reading me (im actually pretty easy to read i think?? whoever's on a team w/ fl can easily confirm fl can read me, shirou can read me, oka can read me most of the time, etc????)

[chennisden]

oh also e) i think the reason you scumread me is because you play a different way from me and you can't understand my rationale here as town, rather than you actually think i have a rationale here as scum

[chennisden]

f) contrary to popular belief, my iq is actually a positive number, and i can make NON IDIOTIC plans as scum

fun fact - i don't think i've lost a serious (non-hydra, non-bastard) scumgame minus the FIRST GAME I EVER PLAYED ONSITE. shirou can probably claim something similar. do you think we just.... allow this to happen for zero gain???

[chennisden]

no we're obviously scum, and we're trying to get a scummies nomination by playing this super tight game and wowing everyone by winning in this tense atmosphere where people are lolreading us

I don't want to be petty because everyone can be wrong on reads, including me on you/Auro etc, but it's just curious to me how the consensus seems to be:

1) scum!Shirou is miseliminating Auro and talking his way out of self-voting in D3/D4/D5.

Rather than

2) scum!Shirou is trying to get town credit by proposing a BoP in a wagon that will likely not happen today, therefore having the ammunition of defense that he offered his head early in the game, but the playerlist didn't take it

I do think it can be solid to scum read me here, it's just, the motives for it are different.

yeah, i mean, i don't think you're

not

the kind of scumplayer to play with fire, i just think it's unlikely you immolate yourself while being completely self-aware of that

[chennisden]

also this presumes that i would actively play the way i did wrt johnny and firebringer early d1, and while the rap battle is something i have big enough balls to do as scum, i don't think there's an actual gain in like... p much everything i did

[chennisden]

tl;dr I have a yellow role pm and id have to be actively bad at the game to be scum here

[chennisden]

CHENNIS NOT TOWN THOUGH: ROLE PM CLAIMS HE IS "YAWFIA"

[chennisden]

I have lost a fair share of scum games actually. People opinions of my scum game are mostly based on Baton Pass / JK9 ++, which probably may be skewed samples and maybe the paranoia around me will decrease eventually the more games I play?

Dunno.

maybe. although i remember your scumgame being quite good based on a decently large sample size, though with any sufficiently large superset one could easily cherrypick

[chennisden]

fun fact - i don't think i've lost a serious (non-hydra, non-bastard) scumgame minus the FIRST GAME I EVER PLAYED ONSITE. shirou can probably claim something similar. do you think we just.... allow this to happen for zero gain???

wait, didn't we lose that game I was talking about early with RC?

We were mechanically guilted which is fair if you don't want to count I guess, but we still lost.

wait i do not think i was ever scumpartners with you

[chennisden]

this makes me sad, i want to be scum with you now

[chennisden]

actually i have no idea why i've been townreading flopz and autumn this entire game, and i think i was just being stupid the whole game

[chennisden]

i will look VERY STUPID if i spent all of d1 resisting autumn elim in favor of johnny elim

to be fair, it had a non-negative effect on the game, but still funny to think of nonetheless..

[chennisden]

fun fact - i don't think i've lost a serious (non-hydra, non-bastard) scumgame minus the FIRST GAME I EVER PLAYED ONSITE. shirou can probably claim something similar. do you think we just.... allow this to happen for zero gain???

wait, didn't we lose that game I was talking about early with RC?

We were mechanically guilted which is fair if you don't want to count I guess, but we still lost.

wait i do not think i was ever scumpartners with you

You were actually. Check it out, I think we were partners for sure.

By the way, very disgusting/evil of me but I was laughing remembering how I had fakeclaimed vigilante in the last day and would basically say

"ok guys I'm ignoring consensus and vigging RC" (RC was close to confirmed town in the game, if not confirmed town)

make RC go absolute apeshit over me and how they should eliminate me, drama happens, I fake calming down, everyone back to normal until

"ok fuck it sorry guys but I really want to vig RC"

RC go absolute apeshit again²

I had to do it because our other partner Inferno was being wagoned, but they were already associating me/Inferno, and we were 90% already mechanically guilted, and Inferno being limmed that day made it 100%, so I had to dismantle Inferno wagon by creating drama with RC, and hope that they don't return to Inferno wagon, but unhappily, the returned to Inferno wagon and I just scum claimed after the hammer since it was a mechanical guilty.

After the scum claim, there was still one or two players that thought they should "take their time" discussing the events of the previous day, but soon they all voted me and yeah, that was it.

You were bussed by me in the early days for me to get town credit. I tried to save your slot initially, but after I sensed that people would lim down you sooner or later I bussed you to try to make Inferno/me alive in endgame.

wait i remember that game now holy shit

[chennisden]

yoooo i was really bad at scum then

[chennisden]

actually still am probably bad but THAT was another level of bad

[chennisden]

Chenn if you're frustrated about people scumreading you despite you having played badly if scum, imagine my frustration when it's been years since I've gotten a good chance to actually prove I'm competent as scum. If I'm scum here, you have to admit I played terrible.

yeah this is like, the reason i didnt think you were scum for a very long time

[chennisden]

i dont mean any offense by this if you ARE scum, but the way you've played seems so planless that i think it's just more likely you are town

[chennisden]

3 way bus

[chennisden]

anyone wanna bus me?

[chennisden]

i think we are making very many AngryVotes on people, and not ScumVotes on people

this is the problem with the d2 gamestate in general, i think

[chennisden]

3 way bus

No

3-way buss for the 5 days of the game

literally scum can't win without town all block voting the unique two-one extra townies on every day.

Not even sure how to win in this plan in the final day.

yeah honestly this is why i think what i said in 4681

people are just annoyed at each other's play (and they don't really want to articulate that, either to themselves or the thread), and i dont think ppl are scumreading each other for being scum

[chennisden]

theres just NO WAY some of what ppl think is a scum plan IS really a scum plan, man

[chennisden]

oh we got a hammer huh

[chennisden]

i will complain if we lose

[chennisden]

asdfghjkl;'