Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[sirdanilot]

I agree that we can play chess first, and then play mafia.

move : e4

I'd like to note that I am not very good at chess, but I know the rules and some basic strategies.

[sirdanilot]

What's bad about Bc4?

[sirdanilot]

Look, the obvious next move for black is Qa5. How would we resond to that best? A defensive perimiter of pawns. Moving the bishop is nice for offensive, but they've used an opening that, for the time being, requires some defense.

Offense is the best defense.

Also, keep in mind that they can discuss moves in secret, while we cannot. That means that they're at a serious advantage as far as planning strategy. As long as we're playing with an open hand, we're forced to either make offensive moves without discussion of future tactics (meaning they'd have to be obvious enough that scum could tell the future tactics as well) or play a very careful defensive game. The usual tactics don't work here.

Now this is an interesting point. We can't plan smart tactics for the future, but we can negotiate about what the best move for the particular turn is and we should do that. Being defensive won't really solve anything.

[sirdanilot]

I don't see how a3 helps us against Qa5?

Anyway, nc3 looks like a reasonable option to me now.

[sirdanilot]

move: Nc3

To me it looks better than Nf3, but there's not that much of a difference.

[sirdanilot]

mod

: can we get a move count.

[sirdanilot]

I'd like to know the usefulness of f4 and g3 too. And Nf3 seems like a reasonably good move by now.

[sirdanilot]

So now we're at move-1.

Does anyone have objections against f4?

[sirdanilot]

I was thinking nf3 as well.

move:Nf3

[sirdanilot]

Why vote doomsday?

Also, exf5 gives us a double pawn, but I don't really see a better move anyway.

move: exf5

[sirdanilot]

vote: Bc4

Moving the queen to e2 (why is that written as Qe2+ ? What does the plus mean?) blocks our bishop so we're better off moving the bishop first, then we can consider the queen move.

Oh, just realized I'm parroting goatrevolt here. Anyway, Bc4 is the best move right now so we should do it I guess. White's doing rather well so far, in my opinion.

[sirdanilot]

Although I still do not favor a queen trade, I changed my mind about Qe2+, since it creates a lot of further possibilities for us and it's aggressive. It makes us get control of the board, as pesco said.

unmove move Qe2+

[sirdanilot]

move: Nd5

Any objections?

[sirdanilot]

Maybe this is a ridiculous suggestion, but wouldn't d3 do more to free the bishop? Also, it takes one more center square to control. But maybe that's just me looking only at the short term?

I'm not seeing where Nd4 would go afterward, and it doesn't do anything to control the center. d4 is obviously a worthy alternative but it would block the knight and somewhat stop the bishop's movement I think.

A big downside of d3 may be that it blocks the queen, but weren't we planning to move her ahead anyway. In fact, did anyone even consider Qe3 for this turn?

Also, no voting please. If you want to note your suspicion of a certain player for the mafia phase of the game, a mere FoS is enough.

[sirdanilot]

Ah yes, b3 is a very good idea too, but what does it do that d3 doesn't? d3 gives us more control of the center and opens up our bishop just as well.
*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d3
*/chess tag removed*...

Ah. I see it now. Bd2 would be no good, it would only threaten a double pawn. So yeah, d3 is no good, sorry for suggesting it. Let's try Qe3.

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. Qe3
*/chess tag removed*

The queen will take total command of the center, but she is a bit vulnerable there. I am thinking b3 is the best move for now, but we should start looking at letting our queen advance Qe3 in the near future. I'm not sure if O-O-O (or however the move that makes the king go to b1 and the rook to c1 is noted) will help us a lot, but it's an option as well.

[sirdanilot]

What is wrong with Qc4? It stops the black king from castling and is a good offensive move. It unpins the bishop but black can unpin itself anyway. It opens up the way for our bishop.

I see a problem though, a black d5 can stop our queen in her tracks. I don't really understand the merit of Qb5 though.

I'm not sure yet.

[sirdanilot]

Maybe you can explain why you're still voting Qc4.

The whole point of White playing Qc4 is to force Black to play d5, steadily stripping away his pawn defence. After d5, White follows up with Qb5+. Black can either reply with Bd7 or Qd7. I won't explain this step thoroughly, or Black will get a forewarning of what is happening.

Bd7 follows up with Qxb7. I can safely assume that Black is going to feel incredibly threatened at this point, and play O-O. So, White plays Ne5 to advance on the enemy.

If Black plays Qd7, White plays Ne5 anyway. Black will have to capture the Queen or be captured. Thus, a trade of Queens ensures - Qxb5, followed by Bxb5+. This leaves Black with two obvious moves, and perhaps one subtle move (I'm not sure about you guys - it took me 15 minutes thinking about the position and imagining myself as Black to see the 3rd move).

Seems like a well thought out move. I was first opposing Qc4 because of the d5 move, but now it makes sense that the d5 move is actually bad for black.

move Qc4

[sirdanilot]

All Qc4 will do is essentially plunge the game into mediocre suicide-chess. I'm not really that inspired by suicide-chess.

This isn't helping. Explain in detail why your move is better than the proposed move, rather than a general play style comment that doesn't help white at all. And you did a logical fallacy here. 'this is why X is good' 'x is bad' 'why is Y better then' 'tell me why you don't like Y over X'. Reply to the question instead of avoiding it.

FoS The Central Scrutinizer

Also, do you mean fianchetto as in gambit, maneuver, tactic...?

[sirdanilot]

So, shouldn't we be slowly coming to a solution now?

I'm sorry for not posting much, but I am really no real expert at chess so I can't be that much of help this turn, but still I haven't seen a compelling argument against Qc4, so I'm going to keep my move there for now.

[sirdanilot]

I still haven't seen anything to convince me that Qc4 is bad.

[sirdanilot]

I'm here, in case you were going to prod me.

[sirdanilot]

Screw it. I hope y'all have a plan.

Vote: Qc4

Sadly, this is what happens with long days like this one. People lose interest and decide 'whatever, I just want to see something happen'.

Let's try not to let it get this far next day, people.

[sirdanilot]

2. A better option is Bd2. It doesn't restrict our queen, (1)develops the other bishop, (2)threatens the b4 pawn, (3)and still allows us to castle, just via queenside. (4)Castling is also going to be more effective, since castling to the kingside would involve also having a bishop at e2, effectively keeping the rooks from getting into the game for a while.

1. How?
2. That's pretty nice indeed, but ...a5 would stop that
3. So does Be2?
4. Not following about the rooks part.

3. There is also d5, which is currently my top pick. It's an attacking move (I don't consider Bd3 to be attacking, as d5 shuts it down entirely) that keeps black having to respond to our attacks rather than initiate ones of their own. Black's obvious response of b5 gets met with Qd4, which continues to threaten black with the powerful d6.

Let me visualize, this is also convenient for the other players:
*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qd4
*/chess tag removed*

Sorry if I'm wrong but all I see is the development of our bishops hindered? But granted, it does show some possibilities for a Qe5.

I am not ready to vote d5 yet, but it does look like a plausible option.

[sirdanilot]

I don't see the merit of Be2?

[sirdanilot]

I don't see the merit of Be2?

It's a continuation move after Qc4. We develop our bishop and castle king-side when possible.

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Be2
*/chess tag removed*
Then what, ...b5 or ...d5 are looming. And the bishop is still not developed until it moves to Bd3 or we move the knight away, or the queen. Maybe it's just because I think too short term, but I still don't see the merit of this move, other than the castling at kingside but that hardly warrants a move if there's no other merit.

[sirdanilot]

Then what were you proposing? The reason that I'm asking is because

THE MOD DID NOT PUT UP THE MOVE COUNT YET.

just a subtle hint

[sirdanilot]

Stop voting. It's anti-white. (just wanted to use that phrase, sorry)

If you want to express suspicion, just FoS or something.

[sirdanilot]

mod: can we get the board please

[sirdanilot]

What does Bd2 do for us? Nothing, does it? Let me dig up a post of mine.

2. A better option is Bd2. It doesn't restrict our queen, (1)develops the other bishop, (2)threatens the b4 pawn, (3)and still allows us to castle, just via queenside. (4)Castling is also going to be more effective, since castling to the kingside would involve also having a bishop at e2, effectively keeping the rooks from getting into the game for a while.

1. How?
2. That's pretty nice indeed, but ...a5 would stop that
3. So does Be2?
4. Not following about the rooks part.

Could we continue this discussion?

[sirdanilot]

People should reply to my post.

Merry Christmas.

[sirdanilot]

Then what is the follow-up after Bd2 if we don't castle queen side?

[sirdanilot]

Trying to get me to reveal my chain of thought?

IGMEOY: sirdanilot

what? I can understand the sentiment of not wanting to reveal your plan, but unless someone explains Bd2 to me I'm not going to vote for it because I don't see any merit to it at all.

[sirdanilot]

No. I'm not going to vote this move unless there's absolutely no other option.

[sirdanilot]

Any suggestions if you don't support this move?

Well that's indeed a problem, I don't see a very good solution to our position myself.

[sirdanilot]

V/LAish today and maybe tomorrow, after that I'll have plenty of time I think. sorry!

[sirdanilot]

You can hunt if you want, but don't lynch because it gives black the chance to kill someone, even if we lynch scum (and chances are relatively low). We should finish the chess game before we start hunting and lynching and playing mafia. If you suspect someone, FoS them and you can vote them when we enter the mafia phase of the game.

[sirdanilot]

fos tcs

I would vote you but then I'd be the pot calling the kettle black! You'll be my #1 candidate when we enter the mafia phase of the game.

[sirdanilot]

As an aside to the lack of activity in this game, I think it's a design flaw that some sort of chess clock system wasn't implemented to keep the players participating.

this

Also, for some reason I got this error message: Invalid Session. Please resubmit the form.

I would really like to see that people stop voting each other. I don't see the point that is being made about the amount of mafia days, does it even matter at all?

[sirdanilot]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. d5 d6

Uhm, why wouldn't you have replaced out way earlier if that's your reason?

Oh, whatever. On to the chess game. So why would black d6?

[sirdanilot]

Then really, do we even have a good option? If not we should be looking for the best of the bad options...

[sirdanilot]

No change from me since my last posts.

Why? It's been shown that Bd2 is inadequate.

All moves are inadequate in our position. The question is, which move is the least inadequate? It may very well be Bd2.

[sirdanilot]

unvote; vote: Pesco47 We are in a bad enough position where no move is a great move and most lead to worse positions. Pretty sure us beginning to lose the game was the agreed point at which we would start lynching.

I don't see how we lost the game yet, just that we're not in the position to do a very good move right now.

But sure if we get a consensus to start lynching by all means be my guest. It'll spice up the game a little. But then we should completely ignore the chess game of course.

[sirdanilot]

unvote; vote: Pesco47 We are in a bad enough position where no move is a great move and most lead to worse positions. Pretty sure us beginning to lose the game was the agreed point at which we would start lynching.

I don't see how we lost the game yet, just that we're not in the position to do a very good move right now.

But sure if we get a consensus to start lynching by all means be my guest. It'll spice up the game a little. But then we should completely ignore the chess game of course.

You seem excited; impatient even, to get to the lynching stage.

FoS: sirdanilot

What? In that case I wouldn't have posted the numerous posts saying that you guys should stop voting, would've I?

What an utterly bad case, you just pointed that out as you saw it and didn't even bother to look back (or even remember).

Also I'm not that enthusiastic about it.

[sirdanilot]

vote Be2

Also veerus and pesco, stop talking

about

people rather than talking

with

them. The only reason I am not participating that much is because I'm simply not that good at chess. That's not a scum tell. In fact I regret joining this game but I will not replace out because I want to honor my commitment to this game.

[sirdanilot]

That seems like a reasonable idea goat, but when people can't see the long term advantage it may lead to the problem that the move doesn't get enough support.

[sirdanilot]

That seems like a reasonable idea goat, but when people can't see the long term advantage it may lead to the problem that the move doesn't get enough support.

Aye, that's a potential pitfall. I'm trying to think of a way to alert players to the benefit of the move without actually giving it away to black. I'm not sure if there's even a possible way to accomplish that.

Where's the rest of the game?

There isn't. Black is just as smart as white.

[sirdanilot]

If black is full of weak players, then the strongest player will have a higher chance of not being a black player, meaning we could use goat's strategy.

Unless this is some mastermind gambit of goat-scum?

[sirdanilot]

Mod did you get my v/la pm.

For the players, I'll be v/la 31-8, sorry

[sirdanilot]

I am back and not sure what to move yet.

[sirdanilot]

We should move Qxf5.

Sorry for just saying what the others said, but it beats getting prodded, and quite honestly there's little else I have to say about it.

[sirdanilot]

hammer move Qxf5

[sirdanilot]

... where is the anti climax?

[sirdanilot]

Qe5?

[sirdanilot]

move: Qd3[/n]

[sirdanilot]

try again

move: Qd3

[sirdanilot]

Be3 or Qe3 look alright to me, especially the former.

[sirdanilot]

So in the interest of the game, should mafia/town mutually agree to kill/lynch the two people who need replacements? Or does anyone know anyone who likes chess and would be willing to replace?

fos veerus

just for reference

[sirdanilot]

For some reason I have the hunch veerus is mafia. My hunch is usually right, but I'm not going to vote him anyway. Unlike Max I do think we should be playing chess since we aren't hopelessly fighting for a losing cause.

[sirdanilot]

The absolutely horrible anti-town vote, combined with OMGUS and the useless 'you didn't contribute much' card convince me that veerus is scum.

And no, I am not good at chess at all. I do not have an experience of reading games or playing professionally to build on. I can only build on my own logic and my knowledge of the rules of chess. Yet I always tried not to just ignore the analysis (which was really beyond me most of the time) but try to comprehend it as much as I can and think with you guys. The fact that you completely dismiss this as scum behavior means that either you are a very bad town player mafia wise, or you are scum. You do not seem a bad player to me, and you are also not a newbie. Therefore you are probably scum and I will ignore your suggestions, and urge everyone to do the same. Or at least take them with a grain of salt and see to it that he doesn't change your mind off a good alternative.

I would do a reread of veerus, but since we have not entered the mafia phase yet it'd be quite useless right now. Also one last comment:

If this is not a scum trying to start something against one of the more active players, I don't know what is.

I love how you ignore that I am one of the main proponents of not playing mafia at all yet. I love how you ignore that I never voted any player in this game, nor did I vote you. I love how you ignore that I am not at all trying to get you lynched.

veerus=scum

[sirdanilot]

ebwop:

I know for a fact that sirdanilot is way worse at chess than me

did you really have to stab me under the belt here mister?

[sirdanilot]

I vote no. There is no reason not to continue chess and try to win.

If we do get into the mafia phase let's lynch veerus. Because he's scum

Then again there's the problem of having too much information... so that would be a compelling argument to entering the mafia phase.

I'm not sure yet.

[sirdanilot]

Ne5 leads to a deadlock position. We're a pawn up therefore we need to trade down to make that advantage more pronounced.

said the scum

Also IH I'd advise against looking 5 turns into the future. It doesn't really help.

[sirdanilot]

still undecided

[sirdanilot]

I just don't see the merit of g3?

[sirdanilot]

Why do we need to move the queen?

I love how veerus hasn't even bothered to read my defense against him. oh wait why would scum do that. veerus, if you want to enter the mafia phase, do it good or just don't do it.

[sirdanilot]

? the g3 square is protected. So is f2. I can see it threatening Nxd2 though. Why don't we move the Bd2 somewhere instead.

wow I should have replaced out of this game... but oh well I am here now so I'll just try to do what I can. I am not replacing out, that would be lame.

[sirdanilot]

Ah ok now I get it.

Qe3 is better. Unlike what veerus-scum is trying to indoctrinate into our brains, Qb3 is clearly not the best option. It does not put any pressure on any pawn; a simple ...a5 will suffice to lock the queen up. Qe2 puts the queen too far back, meaning Qe3 will get my vote.

move: Qe3

[sirdanilot]

If we move to E3 they'll probably move to g5, followed by us a bishop to C3 then they move their knight to C5 (if they're following optimal strategy), then we'll move bishop to d3. It gives us a bishop and a knight at most, overall a disappointing plan.

Then prove to me how Qb3 is less disappointing.

Yes veerus, I did not realize that we had to move the queen. That is simply because of lack of chess experience and temporal inability to find out the logic why we need to move it. However, the fact that I am now trying to put my thoughts out there, despite my ignorance of chess, should have put me on your townie list a long, long time ago, because this is not the first time I've tried to do this.
Never have I pretended to know more about chess than anyone here.

[sirdanilot]

let's post people

[sirdanilot]

Don't listen to him; he's scum!

[sirdanilot]

oh the silence...

qe3 is better anyway. explain to me

why

exactly Bd3 has any merit whatsoever. How exactly does it pressure any black pawn on the board. It doesn't and I explained why on the previous page. Don't listen to veerus-scum.

[sirdanilot]

nothing has changed for me either.

guys we're starting to stall...

[sirdanilot]

nothing changes for me, which is annoying since I would definitely like to post something more constructive, but I can't since nothing is happening.

[sirdanilot]

who's there?

To be honest I am just following the discussion a bit. My knowledge of chess is too limited to really constructively participate, but so far nothing convinces me to vote qb2 instead.

[sirdanilot]

is that the hammer?

[sirdanilot]

? why do you vote if you already have a vote?

mod: please replace inactives thank you

[sirdanilot]

MOD: V/LA FROM TOMORROW TO LIKE FRIDAY. ALTHOUGH I MIGHT POP IN ONCE OR TWICE OR SO. DON'T COUNT ON IT THOUGH. REPLACE ME IF YOU MUST, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

I just have a tiny chance to pop in now so no content sorry ! maybe tomorrow morning

[sirdanilot]

ow wow time to post content

TSC: It;s better because all of the good things veerus described...?

Despite my suspicions of veerus I think I should just vote this because it seems a good option

move: Kxd2

[sirdanilot]

I don't see Bd3. or Qe3, or Re1. But the latter seems better to me.

back from vla

[sirdanilot]

sorry

vote: Re1

[sirdanilot]

Sorry, forgot about this game. Anyways, to make this game run a tiny bit quicker, you must make a lynch and a chess move this day.

No. You can't simply change the rules (which weren't originally yours in the first place) mid-game, in a fashion that strongly benefits one alignment over the other. You just can't.

You agreed to mod this game (which has absolutely horrible rule set. and I mean HORRIBLE) which has been a great disappointment (at least to me) and is taking like forever. if you are fed up with it, then be my guest and abandon it or something or find someone else to replace you or simply continue as we're doing now which is like a Tantalus torture. The only reason I am continuing this misery myself is an ethical one. I hope I will never experience such a long winded and unenjoyable game ever again.

I would almost say 'lynch me and put me out of this misery' if it weren't for the fact that I am town and if somehow people approve of this nonsense then sure, there's 37 pages to scumhunt from! Be my guest. It'd be better to at least lynch a mafia. but we shouldn't lynch now I think, and the MOD shouldn't be favouring another alignment.

[sirdanilot]

I am considering replacing out if the mod follows through with this. At least I will be able to put 'replaced out due to incompetent moderation (random mid-game rule change benefiting a certain alignment)'

I disagree that this game is torture. It hasn't been crazy amounts of fun, but I like the concept, and want it to succeed for that reason alone. I do agree, though, that the game loses redeeming qualities when the rules change midway through.

The game wasn't well designed. It should have had some sort of chess clock system. You cannot simply introduce one now mid game IMO. The concept sucks, and for purely ethical reasons we should deal with it.

I have some options. Maybe we should vote for this.

1. Game abandon. Everyone agrees to abandon the game and let it die.
2. Draw. We'll probably have to do this through the mod to avoid outing scum. Everyone sends in if they want a draw or not, and maybe the conclusion will be to end this misery.

I'd go for a draw at this juncture.

[sirdanilot]

Ne5? Re3?

thank you mod

[sirdanilot]

Bh3?

[sirdanilot]

wait the knight
Bg2?

[sirdanilot]

wait.

Bh3 is better than Bg2 for offensive purposes. Bf5 would be a key position eventually to prevent g5 with Bxg6e.p.?

sorry just ranting. still Bh3 looks fine, but Bg2 as well

[sirdanilot]

Secondly, you can only en passant with pawns. Even if you could en passant with a Bishop, we'd be trading a bishop for a pawn, which isn't in our favor.

? I thought you could do it like in this position:

1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Bb4 3. c4

You could do ...Bxc3 e.p. ? Or only if there's a pawn on b4?

[sirdanilot]

Oh nvm the en passant rule is indeed only with pawns. Please go on, nothing to see here!

[sirdanilot]

... hello?

[sirdanilot]

sorry was vla

back

[sirdanilot]

Personally? Unless you massprod weekly, I'd vote to kill the game because it seems we bog down way too often and half the people don't even bother to post anymore.

yes

[sirdanilot]

yay

[sirdanilot]

I don't care about the mini limit either (I do mostly newbie games nowadays). the problem is that this game does take time and effort, and it has been doing so since half a year ago, every single day. And that despite I don't even post here a lot. so let's put this thing to an end ok. shorter deadlines are ok

[sirdanilot]

...and it didn't help!

Let's abandon this failure of a game.

[sirdanilot]

vote:MafiaSSK

agree or die!!

[sirdanilot]

YES! IT'S DEAD! DON'T YOU SEE THE MILLIONS OF DEAD PEOPLE HERE?

Oh wait. The game was so badly designed NOBODY IS DEAD YET, WHILE MORE THAN HALF OF THE PEOPLE STOPPED POSTING!!

[sirdanilot]

Yeah, please replace half the players, then we can start talking about continuing this. If you aren't making effort to find replacements (not that it's your fault, it's Awesome Pants' fault really for inventing such a horrible setup) then you can't expect us to continue the game, can you.

[sirdanilot]

Sensfan is actually around the site, so you could try prodding him first if you want.

[sirdanilot]

post to avoid replacement

[sirdanilot]

prod avoidance

[sirdanilot]

move: Bd3

Veerus, why would I bother giving a suggestion if I'm not only very bad at chess, but there's also nobody willing to listen to my suggestions, not to mention that you actually thought I was scum due to my suggestions (most horrible thought ever)?

Also this game sucks.

[sirdanilot]

gxf4 seems better

[sirdanilot]

You don't need to read the thread yet.

[sirdanilot]

move: Qe2

[sirdanilot]

Lawrencelot is scum then I guess? Because I had absolutely no idea what I was doing.

I am only a filler spot in this game and I am not enjoying it.

[sirdanilot]

Ng5 Qf5 Re6 gxf4

^options. discuss

out

[sirdanilot]

was away for weekend

[sirdanilot]

due to a family emergency I wil have to request at least temporary replacement out of my games.