Mini Normal 2285: GM [game over]

[geraintm]

this game has taken so long to get going, ive been in the queue for ages

im going tobe so out of my depth with this game, excuses now for bumbling through it.

anyways, Wales off to play Iran in 19 minutes. i am hopeful of a 2-1 Welsh win

[geraintm]

Nah there's no sane reason to over-analyze this unless you're tryharding yourself.

VOTE: herta for this

[geraintm]

I dont get, or like, the church wagon
I think we should be wagoning herta or kittytacky

Naughty point. Didn't like your stream of posts

[geraintm]

I dont get, or like, the church wagon
I think we should be wagoning herta or kittytacky

Naughty point. Didn't like your stream of posts

What does naughty point mean here

Something for me to remember for later that I didn't like that player

[geraintm]

I dont get, or like, the church wagon
I think we should be wagoning herta or kittytacky

Naughty point. Didn't like your stream of posts

VOTE: skitter30

Would love to hear more abt both of these

the 4 posts from you 64-67 i just didnt think went anywhere and were filling the game with no content.

[geraintm]

im going tobe so out of my depth with this game, excuses now for bumbling through it.

Actually what is this your I'm an inept clown scum game? I've seen that before.

but i am an inept scum. just people nevre vote for me whilst i am inept, not my fault.

[geraintm]

Tiger might be scum

this might be true.

and this post is as helpful as Toto's

[geraintm]

Tiger might be scum

this might be true.

and this post is as helpful as Toto's

#
i keep forgetting you get a pass for being as helpful as this.

[geraintm]

also my reads in games lately have slayed so i’m kind of ego tripping being like i’m the best mafia player ever

Page 15 was nothing

Page 16 was less than that
Page 17 was more than 16, about the same as 15

Pooky's read list - i confess i am not even aware of some of teh players they've stuck in there. it could be copy pasted from adifferent game and i wouldnt notice.

[i have not been very engaged so far this game, can you tell?]

there are afew posts were people are leaning this way and that on people based on their meta. which is nice i guess?

No no I'm fine with playing this out actually and like your perspective (of all fucking things)

VOTE: Scolosis

in a complete absence of any direction, Pooky gave it some and then unwnd pushed it away from Dann towards Scolosis. and i don't know why.

Ah, Scolosis comes in and trashes Pooky - and i can understand why.

Unwnd's scol vote is a little icky

it is, but i cannot see a good reason why scum would do it?

UNVOTE:

ah man....then they go do this. Naughty point for Unwnd

Post 515 - SColosis tries to tie me to Skitter

Why does it look like you two are pushing each other for distancing? Geraintm is voting you while dissing skitter.

and then they try and use my random vote to implicate me and Herta?

Naught ypoint for Scolosis (that is one each for SKitter, Unwnd and Scolosis now)

and then in 518 Scolosis solves the game and plots out the next 3 days of eliminations....
Boy i am not a fan of Scolosis style of play for day 1. day 1 i think is worthless, and they are reading so, so much into everything.

oh, and then a bunch of drama

[geraintm]

The most significant post created over the last 24 hours was 572. In the grand scheme of things that's what I care about.

It was a p bad post indeed

well, that is a strong inducement to post more

[geraintm]

[i have not been very engaged so far this game, can you tell?]

Yes, unfortunately, you can.

sorry, there was such a long gap since my last game ive got out of the flow of the site.
but, heck, it is day 1 - what else did you expect from me?

[geraintm]

VOTE: geraintm

I've decided I like my pookythebear/herta/geraintm solve the most, and I prefer this wagon because I feel reasonably confident geraintm is scum and it gives more time to figure out the other slots.

can you elaborate on how/why you are reasonably confident on geraintm

it is day 1, there is no way anyone can get a read on me, just isn't possible. and certainly at the point they claimed they were certain i was scum - i had what - 8 posts and halfof those were random votes stuff?

[geraintm]

A lot of vote timing arguments are arbitrary especially beefore flips

agree, and is usually more useful on who jumps off wagons or is trapped on them with no way off. and none of that is possible until day 2

[geraintm]

Well you're right re geraintm and it took me a minute to think about it and I voted him out of frustration more than anything.

Right about what part?

He does, however, know how to use that as a scum tool -- I have seen him explicitly state it in scum PTs.

That's the sort of thing I was looking for, and if you have a specific game in mind I would be grateful.

That said, even if there is a record of them basically saying "my scum plan is to post level 0 thoughts on the game and get written off as LHF town" and had success with that I'm still not sure I could be confident I could distinguish that for actual disengagement on what he have so far, and geraintm feels too much like a consensus null-to-leanscum read to be a useful flip either way. It may push me away from the slight townlean I am getting from 572, but wouldn't have me supporting a wagon there unless there is a night-and-day difference.

If this is their scum meta and there is a significant enough difference with their townplay to actually have a good chance of hitting scum there, then happy days, but I don't think there are many players who last very long with such a detectable difference and my opinion is that geraintm is a bad flip today.

i think this is the first time (i can recall) it has ever been brought against me that as scum i don't like engaging day 1 and let the game flow by.
it is just a shame that it exactly matches my "i don't want to engage day one as town because all reads are pointless". it is partly why i have gotten away with it for so long.

[geraintm]

also, i think i am a bad scum player - i get way too skittish and panicky as the game goes along and i think i am very easy to spot compared to being town. i don't think i am ever a good idea for an early kill, i think i am easily solvable as the game progresses.

[geraintm]

Is ger really just a null slot? he’s totally capable of doing shit as town and here he’s don’t really contributing much/driving his own opinions, just kind of lurking existing

that random wall post kind of just felt like out of the blue randomly prompted to provide content for the same of it, probably from his teammates or self consciousness or smthng

it was a "i am logging on at half 8 in the morning and have a night's worth of posts to catch up on and i'll do it all at once. pretty much like this series of posts. it is fairly standard for me to catch up like that. (it was just sad that 3 pages of it all was a waste). i am not doing naything different this game than in others.

[geraintm]

Is ger really just a null slot? he’s totally capable of doing shit as town and here he’s don’t really contributing much/driving his own opinions, just kind of lurking existing

that random wall post kind of just felt like out of the blue randomly prompted to provide content for the same of it, probably from his teammates or self consciousness or smthng

yeah that's a fair scum read

I'd kill it

naughty point for Dannflor. swayed by a post from Innocent Villager to scum read me when the arguments made are not correct.
[naughty points for Dannflor, SKitter, Unwnd and Scolosis]

[geraintm]

It would help if people not voting start voting someone, we need more drama to sort this out.

OK.
VOTE: gera

this is fun

[geraintm]

VOTE: geraintm

I've decided I like my pookythebear/herta/geraintm solve the most, and I prefer this wagon because I feel reasonably confident geraintm is scum and it gives more time to figure out the other slots.

can you elaborate on how/why you are reasonably confident on geraintm

Yes, after I posted 515, which explains where I first started to ruminate that geraintm might be scum, geraintm posted 572 which is exactly the kind of post I expected scum to make from his position. Even without already having built a cogent world view containing scum geraintm, I would have scumread him or anyone else for posting 572. I think there is a self-defeating aspect to geraintm's play where he truly doesn't wish to have to play the game (because he rolled scum), and if he must play it, then he prefers to do as little as possible. Ironically, this is not unlike the play of our ic, Toto.

people can wring an ocean from a sponge sometimes. me catching up in the morning is scummy? despite it being the exact same sort of post i do in every game. sometimes they are all in one post, sometimes i split them up.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89907&user_select[]=2369

if you go there for example, my post 79 is at 8:35 am
then 80 at 9:01am
81 and 9:03am
82 at 9:06am
83 at 9:07am

compared to post 572 in this game which was at 9:52am which was only 1 post but quoted 5 different posts.

anyone using my post 572 as somehow something scum me would do....well it is exactly what i do in all my other games.

[geraintm]

I'm willing to take a chance on your reads IV

VOTE: Geraintm

naughty point number 2 for you

[naughty points for Dannflor (2), SKitter, Unwnd and Scolosis]

[geraintm]

gera can u organize your reads maybe or like

idk

i’m reading your posts here and it doesn’t feel like they say a lot even when ur giving reads i don’t really get what you think of the game? like you have these little evil points but it feels ... detached i guess because your main focus is like the posting thing or it feels like that in ur posts

it’s the thing i usually vote for but i feel weird about the wagon makeups right now and i don’t really get why so i’m ?? at this game

i don't have a reads list.
i will just make snide comments day 1 and call out things i don't like. i responded this morning to how people perceive my posts because there are very few facts i know in this game, but me being green is one of them so i can answer back to people doubting that (as best i can)

[geraintm]

I'm willing to take a chance on your reads IV

VOTE: Geraintm

naughty point number 2 for you

[naughty points for Dannflor (2), SKitter, Unwnd and Scolosis]

this post pings me because why does gera say Scoli is being naughty but doesn't vote for scoli or like literally anyone on this naughty list when scoli is the most viable counterwagon to him?

like maybe if scoli is town here gera doesn't want to spew him as town if he thinks there's a good chance he goes down here and removes scoli as a viable mis-lim.

i havent even got them with the most points, why would i vote for them over Dannflor?
why would i vote for someone just because they are a competing wagon to me?

I aint voting for anyone at the moment, day one sucks and is worse than random at finding scum. why would i want o vote for someone today i think is mor elikely to be town than now?

[geraintm]

I'm willing to take a chance on your reads IV

VOTE: Geraintm

naughty point number 2 for you

[naughty points for Dannflor (2), SKitter, Unwnd and Scolosis]

realise i did this wrong.

it should be
Dannflow, Skitter, Unwnd (2) and Scolosis

[geraintm]

I aint voting for anyone at the moment, day one sucks and is worse than random at finding scum. why would i want o vote for someone today i think is mor elikely to be town than now?

arent u voting for herta -.-

my initial vote that i havent moved

[geraintm]

why would i want o vote for someone today i think is mor elikely to be town than now?

Is that your actual read on Scol? More likely town than scum?

i am of the opinion that people who are run up and/or voted out day 1 are more likely to be town than scum

[geraintm]

also his "i become readable over time" is kind of bullshit since he literally won at endgame viewtopic.php?p=13483106#p13483106

by barely playing the entire game.

I am 90% sure if people take time to look at my posts over a game I can easily be spotted as scum. I know my posts (and votes) are different as scum and I can't help it.
I have zero idea why people struggle to spot me as scum.

There is no way I should ever be allowed to get to an end game any more without being checked, last game I begged and begged for people to look over me early doors so I wouldn't be a problem later.

[geraintm]

geraint - I believe you can logically believe that town is < rand to flip scum on D1 but still attempt to play the game seriously regardless.

I know my d1 reads personally probably aren’t all that much better than rand if at all. I might even agree with you that on average scum flips < rand d1, not totally sure. I think that has little to do with not trying on D1 regardless, however

Just my 2c

I am.pkaying seriously, what makes you think I am not? I am noting behaviours I think are suspicious, and once day 2 comes around and we have more info, I'll be able to make better informed decisions than right now

[geraintm]

i am of the opinion that people who are run up and/or voted out day 1 are more likely to be town than scum

Okay. Gotcha.

Now, putting the wagon aside, do you think he is more likely town or not?

I think they are no more likely to be town than the rest of you

[geraintm]

i am of the opinion that people who are run up and/or voted out day 1 are more likely to be town than scum

Okay. Gotcha.

Now, putting the wagon aside, do you think he is more likely town or not?

Your view that D1 is pants and is basically random is acknowledged; but even if it is totally random, sometime those dice roll in our favour and we do land on scum.

Pooky is theorising you are going anti-spew here, and your answer to us both isn't doing much to prove that incorrect.

I'm not sure I know what anti spew means, sorry

[geraintm]

i am of the opinion that people who are run up and/or voted out day 1 are more likely to be town than scum

Okay. Gotcha.

Now, putting the wagon aside, do you think he is more likely town or not?

Your view that D1 is pants and is basically random is acknowledged; but even if it is totally random, sometime those dice roll in our favour and we do land on scum.

Pooky is theorising you are going anti-spew here, and your answer to us both isn't doing much to prove that incorrect.

why would i want o vote for someone today i think is mor elikely to be town than now?

Is that your actual read on Scol? More likely town than scum?

i am of the opinion that people who are run up and/or voted out day 1 are more likely to be town than scum

What happened to just voting for the Most Popular Wagon at any given point on d1?

I did that in a few games, but once it was noticed it became less interesting to do. I did it to see if anyone started calling me out as scum for my actions, but I can't remember anyone doing so so it got dull and once known, it couldn't really be done anymore

[geraintm]

How is your play in this game different from

Subject: Mini 2273: SDTLLSP 2 | Mafia Hideout

Right now, probably no different. It's day 1, to do something now would be so out of my abilities I would assume someone had hacked my account
It is day 2 onwards when I am scum that I am different to town me. I panic once partner's start going down, get wildly optimistic when we aren't. My votes will 'accidentally ' be on town way more often than they should be and I don't vote my partner except in truly bizarre circumstances

[geraintm]

Yo, close your eyes, IMAGINE its day two:

Scenario A) 99.9%: we murdered Scol, he was scum. Poor Toto got shot.

Scenario B) 0.1% we murdered Scol, he was town. Poor Toto got shot.

Who is scum now?

No idea. I will look at who was on the wagon, when they got on and why and take from there. I say repeatedly there is no point speculating day 1 when we don't have any info, why am I going to alter now just because you asked?

[geraintm]

From my point of view there’s no doubt that geraintm will flip scum. He is active now that his slot is on the line, and as soon as attention drifts elsewhere he will disappear again. I have nothing to add except that I urge anyone who is conflicted about geraintm to review some of his scum games and see for yourself that this is a very surface level iteration of his usual scum tactics.

Back in my 572 I said I strongly disliked your playstyle day 1.

This post just merely confirms it. "No doubt I will flip scum"!

I don't have you as scum though, I think I have you as town leaning, as scum you would not burn youtself this much trying to eliminate me. I'm not worth the effort.

[geraintm]

I am aware I look very bad if the coin flips tails and gera is actually scum, I just think what he's been doing is completely NAI because he thinks D1 is irrelevant.

I wouldn't worry about looking bad then.

If people want a claim, then people who want to share info should probably do so before I respond as I reckon I will likely get eliminated quickly after my response.

[geraintm]

geraint is there zero analysis you can give at this point? who are the scummy votes on your wagon? Like you’re about to get eliminated and in theory you know you’re town, is that not information similar to what we’d otherwise know on D2?

geraintm [5]: Scoliosis, Freedom, unwnd, PookyTheMagicalBear, Dannflor

that is the current wagon

Scoliosis

VOTE: geraintm

I've decided I like my pookythebear/herta/geraintm solve the most, and I prefer this wagon because I feel reasonably confident geraintm is scum and it gives more time to figure out the other slots.

that was their vote for me,

geraintm [1]: innocentvillager

Geraintm now has two votes and I don't plan on unvoting for probably the rest of d1.

VOTE: geraintm

I've decided I like my pookythebear/herta/geraintm solve the most, and I prefer this wagon because I feel reasonably confident geraintm is scum and it gives more time to figure out the other slots.

can you elaborate on how/why you are reasonably confident on geraintm

Yes, after I posted 515, which explains where I first started to ruminate that geraintm might be scum, geraintm posted 572 which is exactly the kind of post I expected scum to make from his position. Even without already having built a cogent world view containing scum geraintm, I would have scumread him or anyone else for posting 572. I think there is a self-defeating aspect to geraintm's play where he truly doesn't wish to have to play the game (because he rolled scum), and if he must play it, then he prefers to do as little as possible. Ironically, this is not unlike the play of our ic, Toto.

they then later on usemy post 572 as evidence i am scum, because it is what scum me would do.
i have responded to that, showing that type of post is exactly what i do in every game. they have not responded to that though.
this player i have said i hate their day 1 approach. anyone who is ever this confident about their reads on day 1 is just a bad player.

i also don't think they are scum, because SCum Scoloisis would not be using so much of their credibility to get rid of me.



Freedom

i confess,i had no idea this player was in the game they made such low impact on me

It would help if people not voting start voting someone, we need more drama to sort this out.

OK.
VOTE: gera

that was their initial vote.
It stinks.
since then they have barely been in the game. they agreed with a post Val made about me, and that is about it.

Dislike this slot, would lean scum on it and they are getting away with being on my wagon way too easily.

Unwnd

I'm willing to take a chance on your reads IV

VOTE: Geraintm

that was their vote. I wonder what they will do now that The person they cribbed their vote from has changed their mind on eliminating me?

that was their post 121 out of 125.

I think I would be fine ending the day somewhere on Herta/Geran/Scol. I haven't been paying attention to geran, but none of the key players (in terms of activity, presence) are not pinging me enough to want to risk limming them. I think Dann's statement about 'I'm playing low value' or whatever is likely true. It's not alignment indicative however, so I am taking his stances more at face value; we agree on herta and that's something. I...hesitate on Skitter still and it seems confbias but I don't like that she pitched the idea I was just using pooky's push for my own gain. It's gripes for now as she also agrees herta is scummy. I sort of think he's a prime candidate to get bussed in either scenario of the two aforementioned, so as long my read stands I would very much like to pursue that. Ydra I am null on because ydra and IV I sorta like but am unsettled. Pooky I think is gut town. Too much to be evaluated in the meta chambers.

that was an earlier post, where i am at the top of their list of people to eliminate despite them not paying me any attention
TBF, no one should be paying me any attention. but they - like others, seem to have fallen into voting for me just because it is the prevailing winds. i have no idea what i have done this game to get voted off today.

Pooky

VOTE: gera

his catchup feels like spammy antispew because its chock full of random half assed self meta and literally no discussion of who we should be killing other than him

their vote on me.
and well....this could be said about me every game.

I'm willing to take a chance on your reads IV

VOTE: Geraintm

naughty point number 2 for you

[naughty points for Dannflor (2), SKitter, Unwnd and Scolosis]

this post pings me because why does gera say Scoli is being naughty but doesn't vote for scoli or like literally anyone on this naughty list when scoli is the most viable counterwagon to him?

like maybe if scoli is town here gera doesn't want to spew him as town if he thinks there's a good chance he goes down here and removes scoli as a viable mis-lim.

comaplains i am not voting Scolio, despite that player not being at the top of my Naughty list

I aint voting for anyone at the moment, day one sucks and is worse than random at finding scum. why would i want o vote for someone today i think is mor elikely to be town than now?

arent u voting for herta -.-

they don't realise i still have my random vote on

the last game I played with gerain was a large normal datisi setup

he basically did no solving and lurked all the way to the end and just twiddled his thumbs while the town ate each other for lol reasons.

I have no desire to repeat the experience if he's not going to put in effort and become readable/try.

ah, this makes sense. they have PTSD from the last time i was scum with them and want to avoid that. i can 100% get behind this.


Dannflor

VOTE: geraintm e-1 i think

that was their last vote for me. i had been their initial random vote too.

claim claim claim

I can{t say i particularly enjoy geraintm having 0 reaction to the e'1

they appear to have run me up close to elimination just to get a claim from me.
that is....not good town behaviour in my opinion.

ok i can kill scoliosis I suppose

fine with geraintm too

earlier post, before a vote of Scolio. this slot just is happy pushing me and Scolio (a player i think is town) and getting info from them.
i think this is not own behaviour.

Overall, of the 5 votes on me, i think one comes from town, one i can understand and 3 i think are bad. those would be the ones i would be most interested in seeing gone if anyone was to go today.

[geraintm]

Thanks I’ll read it a bit more closely later - why didn’t you do something similar to this until I prompted you to I guess? It still feels you’ve been very whatever about your E1/elimination idk

I have been very whatever, but getting to one off elimination does make me up my effort levels a little

[geraintm]

And having the known info that I am town does give me a tiny bit more to work with than the normal just look at wagons on random people day 1

[geraintm]

3 i think are bad. those would be the ones i would be most interested in seeing gone if anyone was to go today.

who do you want to kill today

Why on earth are you asking me?

I have done nothing but sit here and say day 1s are useless, we get no good info until after night 1 with a kill and some night actions. The only reason I can have opinions on those 5 people is because I know my alignment.....but you don't so why on earth should you trust me?

Like I think there is likely to be scum in that threesome, maybe 2, but that is just me

[geraintm]

@herta
My vote was random. I believe your post was 21 after my initial entry.
..
I am not claiming anything.

Weekends I am around less often, so don't think just because I am motnposting it is deliberate..

This game BTW has don't nothing but reinforce my "I hate day 1" thinking. If you think I am bad this game, just wait till my next one when I can bring this one up as recent evidence.

[geraintm]

I feel freedon is still getting some free passes.

Why?

Freedom

i confess,i had no idea this player was in the game they made such low impact on me

In post 722, Freedom wrote:
In post 717, Toto wrote:
It would help if people not voting start voting someone, we need more drama to sort this out.

OK.
VOTE: gera


that was their initial vote.
It stinks.
since then they have barely been in the game. they agreed with a post Val made about me, and that is about it.

Dislike this slot, would lean scum on it and they are getting away with being on my wagon way too easily.

^^^
I just lifted the above from a post I did earlier in the game. The slot is, I suspect, very happy with how things have gone this game

[geraintm]

On the first layer he disappears whenever possible, hoping that others will forget he is present in the game. (His absence of meaningful thought and refusal to get involved with the content between 332 and 572, not to mention most of the discussion which he lurked actively through between his posts 18 and 330.)

This is bollocks. I didn't disappear. There was 24 hours between 332 and 572. Posting once a day is reasonable activity. It could be better sure, but I check in every day.

And you say I lurk....Well yes I do, because day 1 is pointless!

[geraintm]

On the second layer he pretends to be meek and humble, hoping that others will feel sorry for him and vote someone else. (330, 763, 767 -which is refuted by pookythebear in 836 and 838-, 854 which is unbelievable, 857, etc.)

I don't pretend to be meek and humble. I say I am a bad player who gets better as the game goes on. Someone who lost to me when I was scum has a problem with me, but that doesn't alter the truth of my abilities as town

[geraintm]

On his third and final layer he creates intrigue and confusion about his role, hoping others will become uncomfortable with the ambiguity behind his refusal to claim and move on to someone else

I suppose this js true.
As I have said, I am not claiming anything.
Day 1 where scum whip round loads of wagons forcing a succession of claims is not good for town.

[geraintm]

It is odd Scoliosis, I have you pegged as bad town and I don't think you are going to sway me from that thr rest of the game

[geraintm]

I am not trying to do badly in this game for any reason. That goes against the rules doesn't it? Everyone should always play to win.
I don't want to lose. I don't want to be eliminated. I have no strong thoughts about who else should be - though I have come up with a small group I am sus of - and I have one player who I think is town and won't vote for.

It is awkward that thr competing wagon to me is the person I town read, not going to lie about that.

[geraintm]

I am not going to self hammer

[geraintm]

@val I think I have expressed the thought previously that players being run up day 1 to force claims is bad. It just means that at thr end of day 1 scum not only get a free kill, but get info about possible roles that town have. It is just bad eV for town in my opinion for a series of town roles to be flushed out so early

[geraintm]

I'm starting to think that you have some role that is rare for Town to have.

Yes and geraintmn doesn't have a fake claim prepared yet so he's milking the mysterious card.

It is amazing how you manage to see the worst in all my actions at every single moment. The timing of my posts, thr length kf my posts, my warning people I am less likely to be online at thr weekends, that I have not made a claim because I am just waiting to come out with a fake claim.

When I get flipped green, I would like you to acknowledge that your read of me has been 100% wrong and your overconfidence has been entirely misplaced, and I refuse you to allow the excuse of " he didn't givr me any option, he was so scummy"!
It is not my fault that you have decided for whatever reason that I am scum and are subsequently reading every single one of my actions as scummy, even when I have done my best to respond to your jabs and you have not responded to them at all.

[geraintm]

I shall say again, I am not going to claim I have a role.

I love that people sit there and say I am dumb for my views....and I haven't even mentioned that I think town should not eliminate anyone day 1....

[geraintm]

I thinknthere are 3 scum btw

[geraintm]

There is a very nonzero chance we are just wasting our time on two town wagons and scum is sitting back laughing but whatever

I think exactly this

[geraintm]

On his third and final layer he creates intrigue and confusion about his role, hoping others will become uncomfortable with the ambiguity behind his refusal to claim and move on to someone else

I suppose this js true.
As I have said, I am not claiming anything.
Day 1 where scum whip round loads of wagons forcing a succession of claims is not good for town.

If anyone thinks my stance on claiming has been plucked from nowhere to try and escape pressure now, I said thr above a while ago and i believe it stands now

[geraintm]

If I claim a role, then town flails to a different bad wagon.
It may well force another town member to claim, all good for scum.

If I claim vanilla and town forces through an elimination of me, well you can all deal with that outcome because there was nothing I could have done today to stop that.

So I repeat I think it is best for town that I not claim.

[geraintm]

because i dont get the point of the execution of how its done versus just like being lazy and out of the spotlight d1

(i dont even remember why gera got ran up atp)

Scoliosis decided I was scum. They haven't moved off that all day even though I have responded to all their jabs at me they have just ignored.


Freedom literally had no reason.
Unwnd sheeped Iv
Pooky has ptsd
Dannflor just wanted a claim.

The wagon stank

[geraintm]

ok but why is it town to do so

It’s town to do so because scum never does it

Geraint could be scum here but he has a fake claim ready if he’s scum. He’s not stalling

I don't have a fake claim.
Eliminate me if I say anything beyond what I already have

[geraintm]

So freedom, any claim from me would be enough for you to unvote?
You are saying you are only voting for me because enough people voted for me that you think that should force a claim from a player?

[geraintm]

So, if my claim has no impact on if you vote for me or not, and i believe town roles should ntk be forced out of us in sequence by scum running up multiple wagons....you think I am going to give you anymore than I have done.

I still cannot understand why you are voting me. You agree you had no good reason yo vote for me, but you were happy to jump back on because I won't tell my role now? Do you think I am scum?

[geraintm]

Because I'm not sure you have actuallynsaidnyou thinkni am scum?

[geraintm]

If I claim a role, then town flails to a different bad wagon.
It may well force another town member to claim, all good for scum.

If I claim vanilla and town forces through an elimination of me, well you can all deal with that outcome because there was nothing I could have done today to stop that.

So I repeat I think it is best for town that I not claim.

CLAIM.

FUCKING CLAIM.

YOU WILL DIE IF YOU DON'T CLAIM.

YOU DON'T WANT A TOWNIE TO DIE, DO YOU?

I don't want to die no. Being green, I want to survive.
I have also said repeatedly that I am not going to claim a roll, I think scum switching through wagon after wagon to get multiple claims doesn't help town.
I have also said if I do make a claim, eliminate me on the spot.

I do think my day 1 thinking is at the extreme wing of mafiascum play, I acknowledge that. And many will.call it irrational, but it is what I think..
I've tried all through today to tease out why people are voting for me and respond when there is an actual argument or point out when there is no obvious reason for their vote. But people haven't engaged with these attempts and people are now fixated on the claim thing and I am giving no one a blank cheque to say "we had to vote them because they were stubbon" as a GOOJFC.

[geraintm]

I am not claiming anything.
.

As I have said, I am not claiming anything.

I shall say again, I am not going to claim I have a role.
)

i am going to post those three above.

Im sorry that i have driven so many people to distraction today, it was never my intent.

ninja is new though. and a massclaim seems unhelpful for town?

[geraintm]

It's D1 sure but it'd be nice to vote mafia and I dunno if I think Gera/Scol are just partners who happened to get double wagoned

if we are scum together, it would have requied Scolosis to have intent to hammer me from the start of the day, and scum to offer up no other wagons at all today besides the two of is. even when i offer up 3 other people i think are sus, not even my partner went that way and i never even voted?

[geraintm]

It's D1 sure but it'd be nice to vote mafia and I dunno if I think Gera/Scol are just partners who happened to get double wagoned

if we are scum together, it would have requied Scolosis to have intent to hammer me from the start of the day, and scum to offer up no other wagons at all today besides the two of is. even when i offer up 3 other people i think are sus, not even my partner went that way and i never even voted?

just....this is a ridiculous suggestion that we are both scum and have made no effort to get anyone else pushed?

[geraintm]

Based on your recent posting, it sounds like if Scol hadn't claimed then you wouldn't be as opposed to claiming. So every claim in your eyes is severely -EV to town. Is that correct?

My question to you is: Do you really think the difference between 0->1 claims is not as large as the difference between 1-2 claims?

I would say no, and I think you need to present a compelling argument if you believe otherwise.

The fact of the matter is, Scol has already claimed, we cannot change that 1 person has claimed. So if you would claim if Scol hadn't claimed but not right now, I suggest you reconsider it from a logical perspective.

geraint can you answer this please?

If you are not going to claim, I think you should at the very least genuinely look at it from the perspective of an uninformed townie in this game and suggest a reasonable course of action. I know you think Scol is townier than not, but we have to do *something*. You can bombshell a case on someone else if not. Make a case for that something even if you feel like it's choosing between the best of a few bad worlds.

I shall say again, I am not going to claim I have a role.

Do you not want to claim on D1 when you get run up in general? Is it because Scol already claimed? Is it because of the nature of your role? Help us understand so we can talk you into doing it

I know you said that you don't like running up too many people on D1 and that sentiment is somewhat understandable to me. I believe Val for example laid out a bunch of reasons why it's better for you to claim. Another relevant thing seems to be that Toto's information can help town and your claim might assist in that. Please discuss these issues in more depth or claim.

Because if you don't claim we are actually just going to kill you

First of all I would say it's important to distinguish those for clarity of communication especially in this case. You are implying that just because in one of his recent game's, scum was eliminated D1, so he should logically reverse his policy or otherwise he's scum for sticking to that belief. Clarifying that he only said d1 wagon is <rand to be town weakens that argument a lot.

The issue is I think he at the very least holds this belief as town too. I agree with you that it is "wack", and that

@geraintm needs to actually proactively contribute to and suggest town's path forward

(we have to do SOMETHING).

If we are killing geraint, I think we should be honest about how much of the kill is genuine belief in him being scum and how much of it is policy. It feels to me like part of you wanting geraint dead is emotional/policy (which is fine). I think there is a portion of my current vote on geraint that is policy too.

None of this was addressed

The only defense I hear repeated over and over again is "i don't want to die but it is bad if scum runs up 'multiple' wagons and so therefore I should just not claim despite town saying they'll kill me if I don't" which just doesnt answer any specific questions and is just a massive leap in logic imo

a claim from me that moved the wagon elsehwere would have resulted in a 3rd claim and so on...

a course of action - would no lim be ok?

[geraintm]

No we would've killed Scoliosis, not run up a 3rd person.

I had like at least 5 questions in there also

you had many questions, it is 11:30 pm here and trying to focus on what i can.

[geraintm]

Do you not want to claim on D1 when you get run up in general?

^^^

i dont have any objection to claiming in principal, if people think it is best for town to claim their role then they should. i dont think it is good for town for me to say any more than i have already

[geraintm]

The issue with no lim is that we don't get to see any flips. We don't even have a shot at flipping a potential scum. You think Scol is town but you yourself said d1 info is bollocks/are you THAT sure Scol is town?

we get one flip (though i do understand this game might be weird with such an obvious target, but when i was saying that earlier i assumed sscum would have to play a shell game with if they want to go after the obvious townie, knowing they might get tracked - i had zero idea about the ninja thing which complicates it).


also, in this complex game townies with roles will be able to come back tomorrow with what they know. i have always though giving scum a free death is bad, why give them a head start?

[geraintm]

@geraintm needs to actually proactively contribute to and suggest town's path forward (we have to do SOMETHING).

i would argue that i have actually put forward 3 names with actual thought to it, based on actual actions in this game (i always liek looking at actual actions in game, and votes on my wagon are real events) - which is way more than most people who have gone arond claiming people are scum because they don't like how i have posted or the lenght of time between posts.

[geraintm]

i hope that answers your questions some what, i have probably missed something.

[geraintm]

i have always though giving scum a free death is bad

You have said D1 wagon is < rand to hit scum. I honestly might even agree. However Pooky and I have been in games with you where scum got flipped D1. Clearly it is not always to go on town in your experience.

So why think of eliminating D1 as a free death?

It's only a free death if you don't claim and we eliminate you.

At least with Scol there's a chance he flips scum, right?

yes, day 1 should be way less than random to hit scum, scum should be able to manipulate the game state so it is unusual for one of them to get caught. people will always bring up instances where scum were caught, but that is just poor anecdotal bias.

i know my reputation, and i know there is no way i will ever be allowed to coast as scum to the end game. it just wont happen. i know Scum me will die before the end of the game.

i honestly think Scol is town, way way higher than random. they have pushed me so hard and ignored eveyrhting i have said back to them....i just cannot imagine a situation they are scum and not just really bad Day 1 town who, for whatever reason decided early doors i was scum and have twisted everything i do as scmmy behaviour.

and yes, i think killing someone day 1 is effectivly a free death for Scum

[geraintm]

I have an issue with the fact that you refuse to cooperate with town

what have i done exactly? i think my wagon is not pure. the wagon is demanding i explicitly claim. why should i cooperate with that?
i have played the game as townie as i can, trying to go through the arguments people have put against me or called out the players who i think were voting me for piss poor reasons. i got either no response or "well, yeah, my initial reason was bad but now you won't play to our rules so you deserve to go"

Or i get Unwnd saying me and Scol are partners?!

unwnd starts off with saying they arent paying me any attention, then sticks me in their top 2 scum, then copy your vote to justify their vote, and is ending up beleiving i am scum with SCol?

Freedom

they vote me liek this

It would help if people not voting start voting someone, we need more drama to sort this out.

OK.
VOTE: gera

and then revote me after coming off because they agree with Scoloisis that my not explicity claiming is scummy and seem to have stuck on my lack of claim as a reason to keep on voting me. they dont ever respond to me, they ducked away and only came back after getting approval from others to vote for me

Dannflor is now on scolosis....they managed to get the pressure on me and then run away despite pushing me to 1 away from elimination and chanting claim at me - why have they moved off? they never explained why

[geraintm]

so i disagree with your idea that i havent been "cooperating" with town - i really dont think the push for an explciit claim from me comes from town

[geraintm]

sorry for day 1.


i knew being VT that i was a half decent elimination for town, and in a game billed as complex where i expected there to be multiple good roles for town i was happy to accept taking a dive. seeing who i pegged as 99% town go down day 2 was disappointing though.
i was claiming VT though when i said "I have also said repeatedly that I am not going to claim a roll", i just left it for the rest of you to either pick up on that or choose not to.

[geraintm]

sorry for day 1.


i knew being VT that i was a half decent elimination for town, and in a game billed as complex where i expected there to be multiple good roles for town i was happy to accept taking a dive. seeing who i pegged as 99% town go down day 2 was disappointing though.
i was claiming VT though when i said "I have also said repeatedly that I am not going to claim a roll", i just left it for the rest of you to either pick up on that or choose not to.

idk about the others but I'd have retracted my ultimatum if you just claimed VT.

The guy we pushed next was also town but he had more than scum equity. Ugh. Whatever. We win anyways and I kinda understand the reasoning behind your play but it was objectively bad and wasted a day.

i felt like i had claimed, saying i wasn't going to claim i had a role is effectively saying i am vanilla or else a role that should not be broadcast to scum. once people had a bee in their bonnet about it, i was happy to see what happened though.
i still have no idea how Enchant/Scoliosis got killed Day 2 though, from where i was sitting they made zero sense as scum.