Open 888 | Welcome to Feryland! -- End!

[Cometbright]

VOTE: Gimli to honour my sister's hatred of LOTR.

Hello everyone

[Cometbright]

Really nice to play with you again Black!

I've not played with you Python but I've spectated games you were in and you were always very interesting to watch!

[Cometbright]

Hi Comet! I still feel bad about our newbie game so I've decided to townread you no matter what this game

HA! I definitely didn't play perfectly that game either, all good!

[Cometbright]

Can we go through you without going through Comet?

We shall see

[Cometbright]

I know this isn't technically newbie's queue anymore but it might be helpful if we all know each other's general level of experience as I know this game was hosted sorta as a newbie-friendly setting.

This will be my fifth game on site (though the first two games were waaaay back in 2016 or so) so I would come under a Semi-Experienced label I think, but I definitely still feel like a bit of a greenhorn!

[Cometbright]

It will be my final vow

Your vow made, thy duty manifest.

@Anenien - yep RVS is still a thing! Though I've seen the duration of it vary rather wildly between games. Welcome back!

[Cometbright]

I got so many pockets, you can call me Men's Jeans.

Hello Dragon, glad to have you with us! And yes, I'm far too nostalgic for my old lady to give up on her so I've taken to always editing her to fit the game I'm playing, she seems rather calm about being suddenly transported to the feywild... perhaps she's an Archfey Warlock?

[Cometbright]

That being said I think I'm passing out pretty early tonight - cats kept waking me up cause I made the foolish mistake of giving them treats before bed and man did I come to regret that.

Looking forward to the last half of us entering the game - please let us know your levels of experience when you arrive! Direct experience with Mafiascum or other Forum Mafias, indirect experience via other deception games etc. all is helpful to know and gives a framework to work with

[Cometbright]

Well go ahead and vote me

In fact, I'll make you a deal. If you vote me in your next post, I'll join you and vote myself. How's that?

Dragon it's page two lmao this is a pretty wild gambit to be doing this early. I mean I'm pretty sure I've seen you do stuff like this as town before so I'm not reading it scummy as I would have with anyone else, but I doubt Python is going to have a solid position on you this early. Feels strange to do a self-vote play when the cases are nowhere near confident yet.

[Cometbright]

We're not getting any of that neutral "this is scum" energy from anyone posting here

Agree with this, no one in this group is in my limpool for today.

ARE YOU MASONS

No but on a completely different topic does anyone want to attend my bricklaying seminar?

[Cometbright]

I dunno... picking on the newb without so much as a "hi" seeeeeems kinda scummy imo

VOTE: Gimli

Just to clarify, was this a serious/genuine vote back Kitty?

[Cometbright]

Also, the idea of pressuring people with votes and then they role claim etc. That's a new dynamic for me, the bulk of my past play role claiming was never, ever allowed. So... traditionally, how does this play out? I'll have to get used to it, I was wired to consider that not a "fun" style of mafia.

And finally, I need to figure out the voting tags, so VOTE: TimmerRC

I do find it interesting that you clearly grasp the idea of using votes to pressure people and then proceed to vote yourself. New scum players do tend to be a little scared of starting any conflicts so plays like that come across as a little people-pleasing and non-confrontational. Who's your biggest scumread right now?

As for the question though, generally speaking roleclaiming happens when someone is put at E-1 (one vote away from execution) and someone else announces an intent to hammer (cast the final executing vote) and they'll usually give a time-frame (e.g. "I'll hammer in 24 hours.") which gives the person on the gallows a chance to roleclaim so town avoids executing a PR.

[Cometbright]

Irrelevant fluff about past games. Generally "trying to be nice" style. Trying to pocket Black.

I don't really think asking questions about past game experience is irrelevant (if I'm reading you correctly here?). Town obviously will tell the truth since they have no reason to lie, whereas scum have to commit to an answer now that they can't really wriggle out on in the future without looking shifty. If a newb!scum player says as such then I know if I see a surprisingly sophisticated/strong play that I can suspect either deception or coaching from a more experienced player in scumchat. If an experienced!scum player says as such then I know I can disregard any doubts in my head of "Is this a scum thing or a newbie thing?". Obviously there's a lot of stuff subject to interpretation, but with no hard info to go off on Day 1 I find the strongest play for me is setting up frameworks like this for me to use later

A newer player with a lot of questions. If he had a scumbuddy, he'd have been given answers in their chat. Therefore,

Actually I find that new scum loves to utilise exactly this, asking questions etc. is a great way to appear active in a thread without actually doing any proper reading/content.

Why are you interested in whether there are Masons in the game?

This was a pretty obvious RVS joke imo

Don't really agree with your conclusions there but I do like the first lengthy reads post to give something to read and comment on, you can earn a townpoint or two for it.

[Cometbright]

Okay so I have a few minutes now. Here's what pinged me about Python:

Full admittance here, I have spectated a few of Pythons games and I think I was wrong about their alignment every time... still with the amount of posts they make I'm leaning in favour of keeping them alive till later as there will be a lot more things to potentially ding them on if it comes to it.

I don't think I felt their retort against you was scummy? The logic checked out to me even if I didn't see it as particularly scum-indicative on your part as I believe I've seen you make similar plays as town.

I think I agree to some extent on Gimli, he's hovering somewhere in the town-null range for me atm, enough at least for me to unvote. I'll type out a quick readslist in a bit and vote whoever's on the bottom then.

UNVOTE:

[Cometbright]

How come Knott's being voted #69-#70? Didn't both of you say you disagreed with VIP's reads? Or did you agree with the Black wagon point?

[Cometbright]

Comet is town

Black locktown confirmed

[Cometbright]

I feel like I'm going to have trouble reading Knott this game.

[Cometbright]

I dunno we will have to wait and see

I'm down to let you cook but unless it's a point that you're sitting on because you need the person in question to do a thing you're anticipating, it's generally wiser to share thought processes - the theme of the game is an informed minority (scum) vs the uninformed majority (town) after all, everything we can do to inform ourselves further helps!

The reason I asked is because your response to Gimli's vote seemed strangely aggressive given it was a random vote with no thought process attached to it. My personal rule of thumb is that getting voted for is a lot more stressful for scum (as they know the town is right and are worried that town has noticed a slip-up/some mistake) than it is for town (who knows they are town and knows guaranteed that the person voting them has made some form of mistake/misinterpretation that they can rectify). It's not ironclad, but it's something I keep an eye out for.

[Cometbright]

Hmm... I do see your logic there actually.

[Cometbright]

Hmmm... I could spend a lot of time shifting people around but I think this is roughly where my mind is right now. Obligatory this is early day 1 reads that are subject to change as the day develops.

Town

Python
Anen
Black <3
Dragon <3
Gimli
Knott
Kittie
Timmer

Scum

And as promised, VOTE: TimmerRC as he's bottom of the list.

[Cometbright]

You mean you don’t care? Why include the rest of us in that ‘we’? Of course it all depends on which ‘we’ you are referring to…. Is that a reasonable assumption?

AFAIK Python is a plural so 'we' is referring to all of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong of course.

[Cometbright]

How's it possible that you have no Em-pool? (Lim-pool? What's it call nowadays?)

Group is in reference to the group that Python mentioned in #32, everyone who had posted up until then seemed pretty townie to me. No one in the group of Black, Dragon and Python (the people who had posted) is in my current lim-pool. I do have one though, which you should be able to gather from my readlist above.

Also, what sort of answer was that for that mason question?

A witty remark designed to flummox buffons.

[Cometbright]

I can't believe Comet rolled scum without me! And on her first scum game, too!

I'm sorry Dragon, I petitioned the mod to put you in a team with me and everything.

Wow, I completely missed somehow that you are a DnD GM.

I am! I'm doing a big ol' homebrew cowboy western-style campaign right now but with magic and demons chucked in, it's a little stressful NGL but the players seem to be enjoying it

[Cometbright]

You can tell by the fact that she's not townlocking both of me and you, and her hesitation on us is really forced.

Tbf I haven't townlocked you but I have said you're not in my day 1 limpool, that's not *nothing*.

[Cometbright]

(Friend wants to grab my ear for an hour or so but please chuck your questions at me and I'll answer em when I'm back.)

[Cometbright]

It isn't *nothing*, but the hedge on me just feels really forced, and I see no reason why Python and Pigeon should be higher than both me and Black on your readlist. Like if you gave a good reason to TR them it would be different but i don't feel you have. Also like saying "Black locktown confirmed" and then putting her number 3 in your reads is ???
I feel you are trying to be too logical in how you approach your reads instead of relying on your gut, except that you as town do rely on gut so it really feels off tone-wise and trajectory-wise.

Because I have actual reasons to townread Python and Pigeon outside of our amicable truce here. For Python I have been consistently agreeing with their posts and even the ones I don't agree with I think their logic is sound. Pigeon I townread because as mentioned I thought his big post was, although I didn't agree with bits of it, still a genuine effort at content and sparked some good discussion with multiple people.

Black locktown was a joke, I've had no strong opinions on her so far, mostly just liking her vibe so she gets to at number 3 below the two people I have stronger reasons for townreading.

I'm not entirely sure if you can say that A: I only rely on my gut for reads and B: that me using logic for my reads is even scummy to begin with. Can you outline the reasons for finding me scummy here? Cause right now it seems like the two reasons I can make out is 1: I'm not townlocking you and Black and 2: I'm being too logical with my reads... how do you want me to argue against that because I agree that I am doing both but I wouldn't say any of that is scummy behaviour.

[Cometbright]

As for why I'm hedging you it's because like I said some of your plays here have been kinda questionable to me - I'm not inherently reading them as scum because I know you do this as town as well but it's weird enough for me to put you in the middle for now and see if you sort yourself further as the game goes on.

[Cometbright]

Also, those lock-towns are mostly jokes then?

Just to clarify since I think it's been causing some confusion, I'm not actually town-locking Dragon or Black (sorry!) though they are good eggs who I hope will be in this game for at least a few days cause it's fun vibing with them. I also know them better than other people in this game which is why neither are in my day 1 limpool as I feel if they are scum I'll have an easier time reading/picking up on it than I would with the rest of you.

[Cometbright]

.... or an attempt at being funny.... *shrug* clearly didn't land

This was why I asked if the vote was genuine, cause I could see a situation where it was intended to be humour. When you didn't give a straight answer to that I decided to just outline why it read a bit iffy to me and see your response.

Thank you for the clarification though!

[Cometbright]

I’m crammed into a car on a long road trip so responses will be limited I’m afraid

Will probably not be around at all tomorrow but should be around Sunday as a heads up.

[Cometbright]

@Comet could you please answer this?

One last post before I sleep:
@Comet, does Kittie give you IcetFeelsPain vibes?

Browsing forums is awkward on phone so going off pure memory alone, maybe a few similarities courtesy of being newbies but IceT outright scum slipped pretty early and was fairly neutral/people pleasing whereas Kittie has felt a bit more bristly.

In regards to Kittie the thing throwing me off with her is the noncommittal “Maybe, we’ll see.” Answer she gave to a pretty simple “Was this vote a serious vote?” question cause it feels like weeeeeird I dunno why you wouldn’t just answer straight… though I can see the angle of it being jokey even if that explanation has me wrinkling my nose a bit.

[Cometbright]

Anen #193,

Frankly it partly comes down to me wanting her to be town and manifesting it. Our readlists were pretty similar so our thought processes are aligned, I haven’t seen her post anything objectionable, she joins my votes, defends me, sure there’s an argument that it’s pocketing but like I said before I’ll feel more confident sorting her as the game goes on so I’m down to slap an early townread on her and shift focus to others.

[Cometbright]

Phone posting while stuck in a car is pain, any further questions/posts can wait till I’m at our destination unless you want responses in interpretative emoji hieroglyphics.

[Cometbright]

Hello! Back home - a little exhausted from shepherding about ten drunk people around the place but I'll set aside some time for today.

[Cometbright]

This I don't understand because you should know that I do this as town and there's literally no reason to think it's scummy of me - I don't think I've ever done that as scum, ever.

I know you do it as town, but why does that make a play I would normally attribute to scum/scum-aligned no longer scummy? It's not a full one-on-one comparison but lets say someone has a habit of fake-claiming and they do this as town too - if it later came to light that they fakeclaimed in a game then you'd still be justified seeing it as scummy, no? I've only seen one scumgame of you (and it was a late-game replacement, if I remember right?) so that's not really enough of a sample-size for me to know it's something you wouldn't do as scum.

Like, I have taken that you do it as town into account - that's why I left you in the middle of my readlist as opposed to lower down.

[Cometbright]

Hmmm... this is a weirdly passive day 1. There's been some stuff slung about but nothing that's really stuck or held for long, I'm kinda tempted for everyone to share their current elimination pools (list of people you'd be okay with executing today) and seeing if we can establish some common block here just so we can prompt some more pointed poking here and narrow the focus further. Thoughts?

[Cometbright]

I'm not sure I'm wrapping my head around what we're discussing Dragon. What's the point of contention? My post #83 where I said the thing you did was, from my opinion, scummy but not as much in your case because I know you do it as town?

[Cometbright]

I think this is a gamestate in which town loses the majority of the time btw

I've got a short set of notes I have written up to help me keep track of things and this was something I added (albeit in different wording) when I got back and read over the thread an hour ago lmao

[Cometbright]

I'm kinda tempted for everyone to share their current elimination pools (list of people you'd be okay with executing today) and seeing if we can establish some common block here just so we can prompt some more pointed poking here and narrow the focus further. Thoughts?

[Cometbright]

I don't really agree with #251 but I'm not sure if getting into an extended back-and-forth on meta is really helpful for the gamestate right now.

[Cometbright]

Limpool-wise... right now I've got Timmer, Kittie and Knott. I can potentially be okay with a VIP vote? My hesitation is because his playstyle seems to be based on 2014 days and rather than it being scummy it might just be... how forum mafia was played back then.

[Cometbright]

Your idea's valid, but what if it's passive because neither of the scum is remotely in danger now? I know it's speculative, but it's a possibility.

Not impossible - but either way a passive town is a dead town. My worry right now is that the game keeps chugging along all slow and then we just do a compromise last minute execute at the end of the day and get very little info from it as a result. If we discuss out the executions then if we execute scum, great - and if we execute a townie then we'll have some meat (posts and discussion) to work with for the vote-count analysis afterwards if that makes sense.

[Cometbright]

Uh...

[Cometbright]

Was that a hammer? I literally just wrote a post saying we need proper discussion so we have valuable VCA

[Cometbright]

Well VIP, you can post till mod locks thread so if you have anything important you wanna say I would say it fast.

[Cometbright]

Awwww...

[Cometbright]

Genuinely thought you hammered at #271 and #273 there, but then yeah I went to check the votes and saw you had voted already, then posted #276 cause I wanted to see what you were cooking up.

[Cometbright]

Gimli this confuses me. If you thought Python hammered then your unvote doesn't do anything. You seemed fine putting VIP at e-1 so why the sudden fear over a fake hammer test?

^I was thinking this but you've put it into coherent words.

[Cometbright]

Didn't you put VIP at E-1...? Hang on let me check votes again...

[Cometbright]

VOTE: VIP

I guess I can kill that which I don't understand

Dragon had just put VIP/Anen at E-2, and then your vote was E-1 and Python fake hammered afterwards. Right?

[Cometbright]

Python, Black, Dragon, Gimli makes 4.

[Cometbright]

I checked the votecount and didn't see VIP so I thought it was a brand new wagon

The one reason I could think of was that you had just gotten VIP and Anenien confused cause we haven't been using a consistent name for them so that checks out.

[Cometbright]

I kinda want to believe this is genuine town clumsiness and not scummy AtE, but part of me is just really hoping you are town so we might have another Death Note moment

I read it as town clumsiness myself fwiw. I feel pretty good regarding Gimli - I like him mentioning and bringing up the slow/bad gamestate cause I feel scum would be happy to just let it stagnate and be quiet. Yeah it could be scum joining in with me saying the day felt weirdly passive but idk... it felt genuine?

[Cometbright]

I was speculating to myself that the lack of any major scummy content would indicate two experienced players being the scumteam (or one experienced scum player who is heavily coaching the other) but I don't want to underestimate a newer player.

[Cometbright]

Your next post is 1000!!!

Waheyyyy

[Cometbright]

NOTE: DO NOT HAMMER BLACK OR YOU WILL BE POLICY LIMMED

Had to check to see if Black was somehow at e-1 there lol

[Cometbright]

Ok I have read over my coffee and I have thoughts, I will share later when I have fully marinated on them to create a whole picture. that is cohesive and easy to follow.

I'm looking forward to it, I think we've got a few (three-four?) people who have said they're going to post some proper stuff tomorrow/later so I'll hold you all to it.

1) what would be the purpose between having 2 types of game play for scum or town? If your a regular player would it not make more sense to have a consistent game play to keep everyone guessing?? Just a thought. Having 2 game play types would just tip people off when you are indeed scum. no??

This stuff is rarely conscious/intentional - there's always inevitably going to be some differences with how you play just because as scum you have knowledge that a town member shouldn't have and will usually play differently because of it - the mark of a good scum player is being able to minimise how visible/obvious it is and vice versa those good with meta reading like to spot these subtle differences. Of course there's the WIFOM pitfall where a player might intentionally play unpredictably to try and disrupt this kind of meta reading so it's not a perfect science.

[Cometbright]

It's come up twice now - what's the context/meaning of something being a hero lim (hero vig?) - is this a new lingo term I'm out of the times with?

[Cometbright]

I'll tell you a secret once someone who isn't you or VIP votes me.

Dragon I wish I knew what your game strategy for this Open is, it makes my head spin.

I think the thing is a little silly but if it gets you to explain then alright.

VOTE: DragonEater70

You're at E-2 now, can you explain this secret? And also why it required you to vote yourself and incite someone else to vote for you to do?

[Cometbright]

Was trying to bait some reactions with everything I did (including the vote on you). This clearly didn't do anything.

Oh, was this the reason/secret?

[Cometbright]

What did I do to fall off your list… between these two posts. I haven’t posted in all until now. Or are you completing someone else’s list?

...? What? When did you fall of my list?

Python, Black, Dragon and Gimli were the people who voted for Anen/VIP during the fake hammer.

[Cometbright]

The more I read the more the only clear choice for me is one of Kittie, Timmer or Comet.

I'm confused about how you start a post with this and end it with voting outside it.

[Cometbright]

Also heads-up, Dragon just put VIP at E-1 if I'm reading votes correctly.

[Cometbright]

Honestly I can't say I really feel too good about a VIP vote here... which is weird because my two of my pretty firm town reads are on it.

[Cometbright]

I'm having a rough day so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to post but I don't want anyone to hammer before I can catch up

Take care of yourself Black. Hope it gets better.

[Cometbright]

VOTE: Afrayed Knott

[Cometbright]

Ok got it, so I’m still on your list?

Yeah

[Cometbright]

I'm reading from the perspective that Anen/VIP is town so statistically there's a very high chance that at least 1 scum was on the e-1 wagon out of Dragon, Black, Python and Knott. Black and Python are townreads, Dragon will sort himself out for me later, so that just leaves Knott.

[Cometbright]

Comet can you tell me a bit about DnD?

It's a lot of fun but also a lot of work. Also it's really expensive when you keep commissioning art of your characters.

[Cometbright]

ngl I have no idea how we're supposed to read Tim/Knott/VIP without a vibe check and at this point in the game the focus on "X is scum" instead just vibing makes us think we're not gonna be able to sort them this game period

I feel this but subtract VIP with Kittie for me.

[Cometbright]

Also I disagree on the E-1 thing cause the scum could be inactive or afraid to vote, or just hiding in the shadows

Not wrong but also maths/statistics is the strongest tool I have at this point in the game so I'm willing to use it. That and the fact it felt like the VIP vote was added on at the end as like a 'okay I had this post already written out but I see now that the current leading wagon is VIP and VIP isn't me or my scum partner so I'm totally happy to try and push this wagon to end day 1 with a misexecute so I'm just going to tack on a VIP vote at the end of it'. It seems even more likely when you note the timestamps (#388-#393) cause it shows a lot of it has been written up before and then posted all at once so the idea of then tacking on something at the end of it seems to make sense to me?

[Cometbright]

In response to the confusion I have caused in people's minds, this is what is missing from my post prior to voting, I've bolded it for clarity

I appreciate this but there's always going to be a bit of suspicion of 'was this actually intended to be there from the start or is this an addition written later after people have raised issues with it?'

[Cometbright]

Do you do that as a GM though?

We swap campaigns weekly so that everyone gets a chance to play.

[Cometbright]

is it? or is it opportunistic? So no I dont think that's wrong at all

Funnily enough this is the reason I'm voting you right now.

[Cometbright]

Okay I think this is literally the point this game got of RVS and things are getting spicy.

You think the fake hammer stuff fell under RVS?

[Cometbright]

because of my stupidity at not finishing my train of thought and fully explaining why my vote went on VIP and not her or the other two. I feel she has picked up on that, well she has picked up on the comments made by others about it.

So you agree that you made a mistake/error but think I'm scummy for voting you because of it?

[Cometbright]

I'm not saying it's scummy to post all at once. I'm saying it makes it makes a theory that one would write up a bunch of stuff then add something to the end of it even if it contradicts/goes against something you wrote earlier more likely. Is that wrong?

[Cometbright]

I made a mistake in not finishing my train of thought, I think your vote was opportunistic yes, I found you scummy before your vote

So you think I was capitalising on a mistake you made by voting you over it? Would it have been more townie in your eyes for me to ignore/not mention the mistake?

[Cometbright]

Please share with the class.

[Cometbright]

there is no way I can prove or disprove this, but it is a genuine statement on my part. If you feel its not then why don' t we use your timestamp comparison------ all my pre prepared posts hit the thread at the 55 to 58 minute to the hour point in time. My vote post occurred at the 11 minute past the hour mark, so some 13 minutes...

I was referring to #407 as the follow-up to #395 (as in the additional clarification you added for why you voted VIP despite him not being in your limpool when responding to VIP questioning it), not the actual vote post itself.

[Cometbright]

Yes, and I am not sure, what reason do I have to trust you?

I would say that declaring people scummy for pointing out mistakes you fully know you've made is itself pretty scummy, I don't think trust really comes into it.

[Cometbright]

What you are scumreading is a perceived fake trajectory in his votes, which is indeed scummy. However, the fact that he had pre-written everything, combined with the fact that he didn't complete his train of thought (which I actually tend to believe) result in his (real) trajectory being completely invisible and obfuscated. So you get the same (scummy) effect regardless of whether he's town or scum, basically.

IDK if it makes sense, words are hard. In my mind it does make sense.

I'm not entirely sure if this fully explains it away, I think there's still ambiguity in the whole 'did he or didn't he complete his train of thought' thing but I will sit and think on this for a bit to figure out where I'm standing on it.

I think his subsequent reaction to my questioning doesn't look particularly great though.

[Cometbright]

Why are mistakes scummy?

They're scummy when they're involved with a push/wagon for someone, no?

[Cometbright]

I should say because I'm confusing myself now, Knott is arguing that the VIP vote thingy was a genuine mistake (he didn't finish his train of thought and voted without explaining how he went from Comet/Kitite/TIm to VIP) and not scum-behaviour. I'm saying that from a town!Knott perspective it shouldn't really be scummy for someone (me) to question and vote him over a mistake which he knows could be seen as scum-behaviour. Does that make sense?

[Cometbright]

Like, lets say I posted something which I then realised could be read as a scumslip after someone pointed it out. I wouldn't then accuse someone of being scum if they then voted me over it because even though I know I'm town, I can totally see why they were voting me and wouldn't say they're being opportunistic and therefore scummy for it.

But maybe that's a playstyle thing? What would you do in that situation?

[Cometbright]

He thinks that doing this mistake has no bearing on his alignment.

I feel like I did pretty clearly state why what he did has scum-alignment in #432. Now yes, he can say this was a mistake and that he actually hadn't completed that post before voting but as I said in #433 this isn't something we can confirm is town!Knott realising he made a mistake and clarifying or if it's scum!Knott realising he made a mistake and is now coming up with a reason for it.

I was under the impression Knott also understands why what he did was scummy judging by his acknowledgement he made an error and saying that I had picked up on it. Hence why the subsequent accusation of me being scummy for pushing on it felt off.

Knott, do you understand why from a town!Comet perspective (and even if you think I'm scum here then please indulge me and consider it) what you did might look scummy?

[Cometbright]

I dunno, maybe I'm being too harsh/laser-focused here? It's not like we have anything really that strong to go off so this combined with the statistics I mentioned in #419 and the fact that Knott is going to be a hard read this game makes me comfortable with a vote on him.

Open to people picking apart my case here though - would appreciate others inputs whether it's criticism or agreement.

[Cometbright]

So having read what has transpired here since my last post I do acknowledge and accept why Dragon and Comet have picked up on on my reactions and more pointedly my posts and deemed them scummy. But there is a flip side to the argument as I see it, when you consider it was my side of the argument. I'm not discounting the theory presented around why town Comet would react the way in which she did, but then how would scum Comet react? I'm not sure, as I have very little to go on her. What is her play style like as both town and scum? And having never played her before how could I be held up for not trusting her. Although yes the reasoning is sound, for example in the light of day (literally) most would pick it up, I would too, but regardless of alignment. So why wouldn't a player with experience not pick it up regardless of which camp they sit in?

I'm not entirely sure what this is saying. Yes, town!Comet would react this way but also scum!Comet would react this way too potentially so picking up on a mistake and pushing it is scummy? I'm not saying that scum!Comet could not also point out a mistake you've made and push you over it - I'm saying that the act itself of pointing out you've done something that looks scummy and pushing you over it is not something you can really say is 'scummy behaviour' given you've also acknowledged that it's understandable why it would seem that way (if I've interpreted your posts right?).

This I just don't get, why would you lim someone as they are a hard read, you are a hard read to me, as are most as I am fairly new to the game, even if you count my last forage into it. To me the only reason I can possibly come up with as to why you would say this is I might be close to the truth with regards to your alignment.

Think it through logically. The further a game goes on, the less room there is for mistakes/misexecutes. Tactically speaking you do not want people you have a lot of trouble reading to be there in the final three because you're going to be in a lot of trouble as you'll have to now try and read them to judge if they're town or scum and getting it wrong is game over. I'm not saying you being a hard real is the sole reason for me wanting a lim on you since that'd be pretty weak reasoning, but if I have a set of people I feel I'm more able to read/get a grasp of then yeah there is incentive for me to want to keep those people around as opposed to people I cannot read, right?

I know it might seem like I'm leaning in too hard here but the last game I was in I found scum day 1 in a similar manner where I pushed them as part of a group involved in something scummy and their subsequent reaction and attempts to push back and accuse me of being scummy in return felt so ingenuine and weird that I kept it up and sure enough following a roleclaim fiasco they were exposed as scum. I suppose in a way you're giving me similar vibes.

[Cometbright]

I'm probably going to drop it for now though because I feel like my last 10 posts on the matter have just been me repeating and rephrasing myself and there doesn't seem to be much support for it right now. I wish I could see the strong town vibes from Knott's posts that others seem to see - I'm just not getting it.

Moving onto the Timmer wagon that follows, arghhhhh... Timmer's still in my limpool but at the same time there's this vibe with him that he's the classic newbie!town who gets executed day 1 for not conforming/fitting into the gameplay as well as others. Yeah he's not posted much and when he does post there's not much to it so for that alone I don't think a lim on him is *awful* but... I dunno. I think if it comes to like the final three days and we're settling on a lim I'd be okay with it but I don't think he's scummy enough for me to be actively pushing at this point.

Now Timmer if you could post more and give me a reason to either more firmly townread you or scumread you, then that'd be awesome.

[Cometbright]

I actually missed the Anen posts regarding Knott, my bad - I'll respond to the pertinent bits.

So, Comet, does this mean that it wasn't only me whom that question had given bad vibes?

Yep. Not a strong point or anything but it gave me vibes of someone overly concerned with how they were being read and was the proverbial last straw for me to hop wagons.

There were about 13 minutes difference between Knott's #394 and #395, but only 3 minutes between #388 and #394. So he pre-wrote all the posts but not the conclusion? I don't think this is informative in itself. Is there anything I miss regarding this topic?

I think my reasoning at the time was that since #388-#394 were all put up as they were written it makes sense for them to be super clumped together whereas #395 was the post that in my head had subsequent alterations made to it (voting for VIP) so it would make sense for it to have a delay from the others.

But then would there really be that extended gap just to add in a vote without the explanation for it? Maybe if he was reading over the thread or even scum pt to discuss shifting wagons onto VIP...? I'm not entirely sold on this point. I feel like there's still something here about timeframes that I need to figure out but I acknowledge it's not really a strong or grounded point at this moment.

[Cometbright]

Alright alright I'll get up. I lost my job yesterday so I'm just slightly depressed

Oh Black I'm really sorry to hear this

I hope you're taking care of yourself.

[Cometbright]

I feel like the Kittie Gimli push is scumreading Gimli's post/'narrative' style as opposed to actual scum behaviour. Yeah he's flip-flopped a lot but afaik there's always been stuff happening in between the flip-flops (e.g. going from 'I'm on board with a comet wagon' to 'rescind liking the comet wagon' when there was a response by me to Dragon's push in between said posts) so I can't say I've seen any of them as particularly scummy. A quick glance at the Python case doesn't reveal anything I find too concerning either.

Still, it's nice to see scumhunting content from you Kittie.

[Cometbright]

Wow I LOVE kittie's case on Gimli. kittie has really won me over as being town.

This is interesting to me because I felt like a lot of Kittie's case on Gimli was to do with him flip-flopping/backpeddling with his wagons and votes then immediately afterwards...

I disagree with this, this is how town players often play. If you look at my own play for instance, I went from townreading to scumreading to townreading Comet a bunch. It is entirely believable that Python would vote Gimli (in RVS!) and then think he's townie.

You pointed out that doing exactly that is something town players do. Not saying this is scummy but can you explain which bits of Kittie's Gimli case you liked? I might've missed something on my end.

[Cometbright]

Quick follow up to my earlier post about being overwhelmed... I had signed up for this thinking it was in a way a newbie game, which to my mind meant it would be a bit more low key, is.... this... what is considered simple and straightforward on this site, lol?

Like, the level of posting and the sheer amount of words in what is essentially nothing? Is this a quieter game by the site's standards?

I think this Day 1 is shaping up to be longer than the other newbie Day 1's I've been in. I think the sweet spot is usually somewhere in between like 20-25 pages? Just as an explanation it might seem weird that there's this much discussion on day 1 despite there being no 'hard facts' but a lot of day 1 is going to be establishing the groundwork, a person's playstyle, activity, behaviour and interactions with other players which can then be read over and examined later when we have actual hard information to work with. E.g. if a scum flips we can look through their earlier posting to try and establish their partner/people they were pushing and if it a town flips we can look through their posts with 100% guarantee that their analysis was done with a townie outlook to hunt scum.

[Cometbright]

Alright I should have gone to bed a while ago - sorry for the compressed and slightly disorganised posting - it was a busy day today! If I missed anything then holler at me and I'll respond tomorrow. Night all.

[Cometbright]

comet I want you to know I'm sheeping you, whoever you think is mafia I trust your insticts with it

I spent half an hour looking for a phone that was in my pocket today, just want you to know what you're getting yourself into here

[Cometbright]

1. Regarding kittie/Giml: Yes, that's true that town changes their opinions, however I don't see how this should affect my read on kittie? I just liked the thought process and critical thinking there, and Idk if I'm actually scum reading Gimli based off that.

Huh?

Wow I LOVE kittie's case on Gimli. kittie has really won me over as being town.

Anyway I'm sold on scum Gimli tbh

[Cometbright]

Huh?

So you didn't scum read Gimli based on Kittie's case? I interpreted 540 as you indeed thinking it was a strong case and subsequently agreeing that Gimli was scummy.

[Cometbright]

I've got a tinfoil I'm keeping close to our chest for a little bit

Can I borrow it? I'm running low on tinfoil and I have to bake brownies tomorrow.

[Cometbright]

2. I think you are wrong on Timmer being "classic newbtown". Unfortunately I am phone posting and tired so you don't get links, but please go check patchwork's and OMIGRON's ISO's in newbie 2112 or even Comet's, and compare to Timmer's ISO here.
Then have a look at elpis's ISO in newbie 2114 (elpis was scum) and also compare it to Timmer here. Please tell me which ISO Timmer feels most similar to.

I think it's a bit futile to compare newbie meta, no? Isn't the whole point of newbies that they're new and not going to have any kind of pre-existing meta to work with?

[Cometbright]

I don't think a deep-wolf/competent scum player here is unlikely.

[Cometbright]

Considering that i just found that you are basically voting more than the rest of the game combined right now, I would say that you are posting a ton and know very well where the game is at? You are def my top scumread at the moment.

Hmmm... I think this is an interesting point. I'm going to file it away in my head for later.

[Cometbright]

I liked Timmer's case/scumhunting post more than I liked Kittie's.

[Cometbright]

but I didn't push back on you, I instigated the feel. You had virtually ignored me until I put you on my Lim list, as far as I can recall that is

I don't really consider being on a lim list as an active push. Also I'm pretty sure I had already had you on my lim list before you put up yours and posted a readlist where you were 3rd from the bottom so I wouldn't say I ignored you.

[Cometbright]

Why?

I think I've already mentioned I didn't really find much of Kittie's points compelling in #552 but to re-establish, a lot of the points felt focusing on viewing Gimli as flip-flopping when I felt something had happened in between each flip-flop to give justification for the switch. I suppose you could say the act of flip-flopping itself is scummy but... eh...... I don't really view it as a strong scumtell. Could you point to anything you felt was particularly strong/convinced you Black? Nothing really jumps to me.

By comparison Timmer's case actually poked at an aspect to Dragon that I hadn't really picked up on myself (saying he'll have to catch up because he's not fully read the stuff yet despite being super active/replying) to be intriguing. I'm not saying it's a strong argument because it's not falsifiable or anything but it's something new and interesting to me. Also that combined with the 'scum prefers to vote on already formed wagons as opposed to starting their own' point from you in response to it I thought had me nodding my head even more. Does that make sense?

[Cometbright]

I feel like Tim's case is more likely to be accurate and also more likely to come from scum compared to kittie

How so?

[Cometbright]

For me the first thing was definitely a stronger one, than the second one about the timeframes. However, am I right that the whole timeframe story generates more like a gut-read in you than a logical one?

At the moment yeah timeframe is just sparking gutreads in absence of me having something concrete there.

[Cometbright]

Everyone else is a blank in my head so this evening my plan is to give players like black, gimli etc some study.

I would be really interested to see who your townreads are here actually

[Cometbright]

I'm stuck because the two top suspects forming in my head rn feel like they don't really fit as a scumteam. Hmmmm...

[Cometbright]

Can these weak links materialise already

[Cometbright]

Someone call Anne Robinson

[Cometbright]

The absence of weak links is also informative

This game feels like a fortune cookie.

And I don't like fortune cookies.

[Cometbright]

Hello, around for an hour or so! Reading up now...

[Cometbright]

what I found interesting about dragons voting style is that he seems to push for a wagon to be started by someone else, and then and only then joins it.

Yeah, Timmer touched on that and then Black linked it to scumplay and I thought it was a valid observation. I'll need to check Dragon's past voting history to see how it falls in line.

I think I like this Kittie post more? Though I should say that post amount usually doesn't reveal too much - sometimes scumplayers will hyper-post (in fact it's a tactic to try and flood/overwhelm the thread with guff) and sometimes townplayers will lurk.

[Cometbright]

I've possible had no responses as I did not place a question mark at the end.

As in opinions on if those series of posts were a scumteam of Black and Timmer trying to disrupt the wagon? Maybe? I feel like given scum have their own private chat it'd be a whole lot easier to coordinate a play more subtle than that, but if one flips scum then something to look back on later I suppose.

[Cometbright]

I’ve been sat here in my panadol induced fuzz and can only come up with this - Lim on DE, Gimli or I. I know what I will flip and when you see that, if i am your choice, then Lim the other 2. Or is that just too much melodrama?

This is a level of confidence that feels strange with no flips or claims yet.

[Cometbright]

If I had a nickle for every time I had to pause and check votes to see if Python just hammered...

[Cometbright]

My brain is melting - was that a hammer? Mod votes have been a bit incorrect this game (it says I'm voting for Timmer? I think I'm voting for Knott still.)

[Cometbright]

Ok cool cool, I will continue my read.

[Cometbright]

Deep wolf = a scum who's hard to be caught?

Essentially. Wolf comes from the mafia variant 'Werewolf' (or is mafia a variant of werewolf? I don't actually know) where the scum are wolves. Deep wolf means someone who is lying deep/concealed among the town, usually associated with a player who actively buses/pushes their own scumteam just to look even better and subsequently win the game in the finale by appearing the towniest.

[Cometbright]

Also I am reading these Gimli cases btw but I'll respond when I finish up reading since it seems there's going to be more of it over the coming pages.

[Cometbright]

Again, I may be outdated but Day1 team speculation rarely worked long ago. I was told so multiple times (and I usually forked it up whenever I speculated).

I'm not saying this point from you or Python from earlier is invalid but in my head if the two people who are looking the scummiest don't seem to fit together in a potential team at all it indicates to me that I'm reading *something* wrong - whether their scuminess or their scumteam potential.

[Cometbright]

TimmerRC (2): Cometbright, DragonEater70

Just to ping ya mod, I believe I'm still voting for Knott as of #415

Fixed, thanks! ~f

[Cometbright]

I’m sorry, but does no one else see what I see. Black, Timmer and either VIP or Gimli?

That’s my scum, now.

VOTE: Timmer

Was Timmer at e-2 before this? Assuming me and also Anen/VIP were listed as voting Timmer if I'm reading his #685 right. If so then that's Knott putting someone at E-1 unannounced which is again just getting my 'Knott going for opportunity wagons' alarm bells ringing.

[Cometbright]

So both Gimli and I are at 3 votes and you vote this bluntly without explanation and without mentioning it is e-1?

Ok he was yeah

[Cometbright]

Also, those Python votes are terrible as fork. Who are they? Oh wait... Black and Gimli.

Is this you saying you think it's a Black/Gimli scumteam?

[Cometbright]

Afrayed is probably town for thinking there's 3 scum

Damn it.

I actually think this is an annoyingly good point.

[Cometbright]

I feel Black and Timmer for definite. And then one of you or Gimli

But then why would a townie be *this* confident!? Arghhhhh

[Cometbright]

This is a laughable hedge.

TBF I gotta say I went into this game being like "I think I have a good idea of Dragon meta in my head and can read him." and that has very much not been the case.

Black's posting has been designed to stop as many wagons as possible from occurring

I really quickly skimmed through Black ISO to check this point. I did see her switching votes but it didn't really seem like her stopping wagons, just genuinely shifting between people to put pressure on and get reads. Would be really interested to see further explanation here though.

[Cometbright]

comet is always town and if she is scum or regardless she is my favorite poster this game

Sometimes moronic but always iconic.

Put that on my tombstone.

[Cometbright]

Won't really comment on the Dragon vs. Black thing until Dragon responds cause I don't wanna taint the fruit. Kinda interested to see where it goes though.

[Cometbright]

Who said that Black has not once voted for Gimli, and is that still the case? If Black isn’t voting and still feels as they do about Gimli, why no Vote?

VOTE: Black

Are you voting Black for not voting for Gimli because you think Gimli is scum? Shouldn't you be voting Gimli to confirm if he's scum before then going on Black?

[Cometbright]

Have you caught up yet…. Keep reading

Comet has not caught up

[Cometbright]

Have you caught up yet…. Keep reading

What am I looking for? Your last post was the Black vote until just now.

[Cometbright]

Huh? I thought if you a lim’d you had to claim your alignment? Or am I missing something?

It was a fake hammer

[Cometbright]

it wasnt and i was joking

[Cometbright]

Have you caught up yet…. Keep reading

[Cometbright]

A lightbulb just dinged above my head and in popped a theory but in needs more time to subsequently cook so I will leave this message here that I can point to and go "This is when it occurred to me." if/when I explain it later.

[Cometbright]

Okay but it seems the current top wagon is on Gimli if I've read the votes correctly?

I think Gimli frankly hasn't done much for himself here and I wish I could see some proper defence from him but I gotta be honest I'm still not seeing it. Has he been a little lurky? Yeah. Has he sheeped? Yeah. But I can 100% see a town!Gimli doing exactly that. If there's any other arguments for Gimli scum then yell em at me.

The reason I see Gimli as town is because A: vibes (sue me), B: the posts pointing out gamestate, C: a trickey pit of WIFOM where frankly wouldn't scum!Gimli have been putting a bit more effort into this wagon forming on him? It's not come out of nowhere - I'm pretty sure the last five IRL days have had people pointing out that he's been inactive and following other people rather than doing his own pushes, he's had more than enough opportunity to reverse that exactly like Timmer has... so why wouldn't he? Continuing with your playstyle even if it causes suspicion has always been a townie thing to me when I've seen it... and I feel that with him.

[Cometbright]

Deadline is approaching and we've got the weekend coming up so activity for a few people here might be sporadic. I'm worried if we don't have some consensus on the lim here then we're not going to have enough time to handle potential roleclaim shenanigans if they arise.

[Cometbright]

Dragon's on my limpool but I really do want to see his case against Black here.

[Cometbright]

There's a world where he's pretending for the town cred but I don't think it's likely

This is what goes through my head when I read #712. An uncharitable part of me is reading it as scum!Knott being like 'Oh how foolish of me, what a silly mistake I've made which also just so happens to make me look VERY townie, goodness!' Especially because he read your post and immediately understood the error he had made rather than being confused and asking for clarification/questioning you about it unlike other confusions before. Almost as if it had been discussed out in scumchat with his partner being like "Do this and then they'll be like 'But there's only 2 scum what do you mean?' which'll give you towncred as surely a scum player would know there's just two scum." and so upon the bait being taken he immediately jumps on it.

But then I read that and I'm like damn Comet, I'm pretty sure Occam's Razor is saying you should just accept it as a townslip from Knott and re-evaluate your case.

[Cometbright]

The roleclaiming thing is new for me, how does it generally go down?

Someone gets put to E-1. Proper courtesy (unless you're Python trying to scare people) is for the next person who wishes to cast the final vote to announce an intent to hammer and usually a time when they'll do it, e.g. "I will hammer in 24 hours from now." when this happens the person on death's door should almost always claim their role. The complications come from if the person claims a power-role (something that isn't a vanilla town) as then we have to discuss whether or not we believe that person's claims and if there's any counterclaims (other potential PR's who conflict with the initial roleclaim).

[Cometbright]

My vote on Back was a genuine failed attempt to lure a hammer onto Gimli and prove my point that Black and Tim are the scum team. which I still maintain.

I'm not sure I understand the plan here. You voted Black to try and get Black to hammer Gimli? How would that prove that Black/Timmer scumteam? They would have both been on the wagon but that wouldn't really prove anything.

[Cometbright]

I don't find the Black case particularly strong.

I'm in another confliction spot cause why wouldn't scum!Dragon just hammer there? I'm pretty sure he's the second or at least third potential wagon behind Gimli so you'd think he'd just hammer there especially with a VT claim rather than back off and look for a new wagon.

[Cometbright]

I think Gimli is town. Though I'm also not sure if we keep pushing for E-1's and role claims at this point. If not Gimli then who is the other execute candidate? I've got Knott and Dragon in my limpool.

[Cometbright]

You think scumteam is Kittie + DE or Black, Gimli?

[Cometbright]

Apologies - only semi-present at the moment.

Really dislike the super early E-1 and I feel like a broken record at this point but once again it was Knott putting someone at E-1 without saying as such. I also find Knott's progression here making so little sense - near the end of Day 1 his scumreading on Black was dependent on Gimli being scum (he wasn't) and his other scumread was VIP who is... on the Black wagon today that he joined. I think his justification here today is he's sheeping Python but... why?

Dragon/VIP/Knott - are you comfortable with the fellow people on your wagon here?

[Cometbright]

I'm not saying Black scum is impossible here but this huge push right out the gate feels off - especially with the overlap between this Black wagon and the Gimli wagon.

[Cometbright]

Yeah I'd say that Knott had been my biggest/most consistent TR in the game after Python and Gimli, who are both dead. And VIP's vote doesn't feel scummy.

Knott being your biggest/most consistent TR baffles me but very well.

Care to explain why?

You think there's nothing at all scummy about someone being put to E-1 straight out the gate with significant overlap between the Gimli town execute and the rapid-fire E-1 wagon? I don't really view you as scummy for the first vote, but you don't think the sheer speed and time at which it picked up has anything weird at all about it?

[Cometbright]

Hm. Which one was the first time? Timmer or me?

Actually mistake on my part - this is the second time Knott has put someone to E-1 unannounced. I thought he had put you at E-1 unannounced but that was actually Dragon. The votes were pretty close together in time so I got em confused.

First time in that case was Timmer in #684 (was not actually E-1 but mod error in votecount had Timmer at E-2 in the votecount right before Knott voted).

What if he wanted to stay away from the Gimli wagon because he knew what the flip would be?

Possible - though I don't know how effective this would be because he was pretty openly shading Gimli - he was voting Black *because* he saw Gimli as scum if I recall correctly.

That's Dragon and me. Knott was voting for Black at that time.

Knott was voting for Black because of Gimli being scum - so I kind of count it as pseudo being on the wagon because for it to make sense he would have to believe Gimli was scum.

[Cometbright]

The Black loss blows

Hey Dannflor!

[Cometbright]

dragon can you explain how you emotionally went from this:

Frankly he's been very erratic this game if you ISO him. It's why I'm having a lot of trouble reading him.

[Cometbright]

I am fine with being elimmed today, but that doesn't mean I think we should waste this day phase without scum hunting and pressuring people.

My problem here is that not only was it a very quick E-1, it happened when literally none but the three people on Black wagon at the time had even posted. What discussion/pressure was there to even be had?

[Cometbright]

I don't understand the bolded part.

You and Dragon are in my limpool as I said at the end of Day 1 and VIP is somewhere in null at the moment. I'm asking if the three of you all see each other as townie and this as a genuine townie push against a (presumable) scum!Black/Dann or if you think someone on there is taking advantage of the push - which has implications. Since I view the three of you as either scummy or null, I think you know my opinion on the matter.

try these to start 190388470480565567577647

190 says you view Timmer as scummy. 388 says you view Anen/VIP as scummy. 470 says you view Comet as scummy. 480 says you view Timmer as scummy. 565 says you view Black as scummy (because you think Gimli is scum). 567 is your reasoning for voting Timmer. 577 is you saying you're confident in Timmer scum. 647 is you saying once again you view Black as scummy because she's covering for Gimli!scum.

How is any of that relevant to this Black vote/your progression on it...? If anything isn't it pointing to the exact opposite because Gimli flipped town?

[Cometbright]

483 yes I sheep there and I will freely admit that. but that is becasue i am consistent in most of my reads. yes they fluctuate but they do show a core consistency

Python is a strong player - not contesting that - but they did push a Gimli wagon into a subsequent Gimli townflip. Does that not make you waver even a little? Why take Python's reads over say, Gimli's reads? He flipped town too.

If you're consistent in your reads, then why the sudden Black e-1 over voting Timmer? Don't you confidently view him as scum? Because all I've really seen regarding your own reasoning for Black!scum has been tied to trying to cover/protect scum!Gimli... who flipped town. I just don't get your reasoning here - and that's not a good sign when you're apparently confident enough to put a wagon to E-1 unannounced.

I feel confident though that Timmer is a scum.

[Cometbright]

I sometimes wish I was as good at this game as Comet.

Frankly I think you'd have better luck with a Magic 8 Ball, but I appreciate the vote of confidence.

Just as a heads-up it's still between you and Knott right now in my head - I just think Knott's vote was a lot worse than your vote.

Also as an aside, tonight's a bit hectic for me so might not be around to post! Will endeavour to try and at least read over and reply to anything urgent before I head off to bed though.

[Cometbright]

Read through but am stuck on phone which is awkward cause really need to pin up quotes for a response which I can’t do easily on phone.

Will respond to something from you Knott real quick - I realise now I was confused and was under the impression you voted Black thinking it was a Black/Gimli scum team in Day 1 because of the weird vote test thing you did and when I asked if that was what you were doing in #781 your response in #786 didn’t actually clarify if that was the case and I interpreted it as you saying “Yes that was why I did it and you can’t tell me what to do with my vote so back off.” hence me bringing up what I viewed as your poor reasoning for the Black/Gimli scum team. There’s still bits I’m confused about but we’ll touch on that later.

I still have some issues with this whole Timmer/Black thing but I’ll get into that when I’m not on phone.

[Cometbright]

Just in case you’re around Knott and can respond, let me make sure we’re on the same page here so I don’t end up confused again.

Your current scumteam is Black (now Dann) and Timmer. Timmer you view as scum for several different reasons whereas Black you viewed as scum because it looked like she was trying to cover and help Timmer out of his wagon. Do I have that all right? Am I missing anything?

[Cometbright]

pg 12- Ah, a classic python fake hammer.  Gimli, Black, and Comet all dumbtelled, huh?  Yeah that's too many dumbtells

Not entirely sure what you're saying with this. You think it's scummy that we all played along with the fake hammer?

[Cometbright]

Please tell me where it says I should do what you are insisting I do.

Please tell me where I said that? You can play or vote how you like - I'm just also allowed to scum or town read you for how you play respectively.

You should read this for your first dig

I did miss this - my bad. I think I skimmed and didn't pay it too much heed cause I'm generally hesitant to get too heavy into speculating why someone was killed A: because it's a WIFOM minefield and B: I don't want to give mafia any assistance with their own night kill analysis. I still think my point regarding why sheeping them isn't the best of ideas is valid though - you say they were forceful and killed for their reads but their main scumread (Gimli) that they pushed ended up flipping town - doesn't that sort of put a bit of a damper on that whole idea?

[Cometbright]

Bu that was not my reason for my vote, stop misreping me thank you

Now that I have a better idea of why you're actually voting Black here I'm still a little bit confused by the logic. The posts you specifically outlined regarding Black as being suspicious is #565/#647 where you say you feel like Black is trying to deflect a wagon, right? My points regarding the whole Black/Gimli thing still apply here - Black being scum is conditional on Timmer being scum according to your own argument right? If Timmer is town then the whole scumpartner trying to deflect their fellow scum's wagon here obviously doesn't make sense, so in no world should you want Black executed before Timmer - a Timmer flip actually would confirm if your theory is even right or not whereas a Black flip gives you less info to work with.

Now you did vote Timmer first, true. If your vote had stayed on Timmer then I think it'd be an okay vote even if I disagree with it, but why would you switch to putting Black at E-1 so quickly? I don't find the arguments of pressure being of much worth because again it was so early that only three people (you, Dragon and VIP/Anen) had posted so what exactly does putting Black to E-1 do? Again - you state it clearly in #985 that you are confident in Timmer scum and it's the *interactions* with the Timmer slot that has you scumreading Black so Black!scum is absolutely conditional on Timmer!scum right? I just don't get why you would ever want to hammer Black before Timmer knowing that.

[Cometbright]

This is pretty much the main reason I'm scumreading you. When I try and put myself in town!Knott's shoes where I'm fully committed to your arguments and beliefs then I would be pushing hard for a Timmer execute as he's my confident scum and then when he flips scum I then push Black because of her scummy interactions of trying to cover for scum!Timmer. Instead you've been trying to mostly get Black executed first and it makes no sense from my town!Knott perspective. Lets say Black flips scum - I was already confident in Timmer scum so that isn't helping me... and if Black flips town then I've made a serious blunder but it doesn't even clear Timmer in my head because I'm scumreading Timmer for reasons outside of the Black interactions so I've gained nothing from it.

Whereas if I look at your posts from a scum!Knott perspective then I can see a more logical/realistic reason for why I've been acting the way I am - getting a townie to E-1 so early in day 2 is putting pressure on town and not me or my scum!partner. I can rationalise and make sense of the actions (even if personally I think putting someone to E-1 that early is just going to make everyone on the wagon look scummy) - which I can't do as town!Knott.

If you can explain if I'm missing something here then I'd appreciate it - I've seen multiple people now saying they see you as very townie and I'd love to understand/agree with them, but I just don't get the whole pushing for Black before Timmer thing you've been doing.

[Cometbright]

Okay it's very late and I should sleep. Enjoy your evening yanks

[Cometbright]

The self-vote really screwed us here Dragon, but no point agonising over it. Kittie reading scum into people voicing suspicion of her isn't entirely new (she had the whole vote back thing with Gimli early into Day 1), how confident are you that this is actually Kittie scum behaviour and not just new player getting overly defensive and OMGUS the person pushing at them?

[Cometbright]

I double checked their posts, they have NOT voted for you.

Black voted for him though and Dann (her replacement) never formally unvoted. The vote doesn't go away upon replacement.

[Cometbright]

It's why Merlyn did her unvote in #975.

[Cometbright]

I genuinely don't believe Timmer knew he was hammering you there - the Dann/Black thing combined with the self-voting honestly gives enough grounds for me to be able to buy someone not realising that you were actually just a single vote away from execution. Though there is always that crackpot theory that an experienced player coached him through it... but that wouldn't make sense with a Kittie/Timmer scumteam.

[Cometbright]

I'd do a longer response to you Knott but literally any second the thread could suddenly lock so have to be quick here.

I think Knott would still be in my limpool even with his evidence - limming the theoretically more experienced scum makes sense but again your entire case for Black!scum was dependent upon Timmer!scum - it just does not compute for me??? I dunno man I'll think over it during the night but I might be killed so want to say it out here now.

[Cometbright]

It's good practice to unvote upon re-entering but Dann did not unfortunately.

[Cometbright]

Did Merlyn ever fully catch up? If Dragon flips town here we're heading into ELO which is going to be a nightmare with neither replacement really having integrated fully into the game here.

[Cometbright]

Note for the newbies: if Dragon flips town and assuming a town is killed during the night we will be in ELO (eliminate or lose)! This means you SHOULD NOT vote without being fully confident the person you are voting is scum as if you mistakenly vote for a town member, the other two scum can quickly vote together to hammer and end the game with a scum victory.

[Cometbright]

This is going to be a nightmare.

[Cometbright]

I'm assuming your vanilla town Dragon?

[Cometbright]

2 scum among Timmer, Kittie, Knott, Dann and Merlyn.

I think gun-to-head right now it's Kittie/Knott but man frankly I don't have enough from Merlyn to really clear her... nor Dann but I like Black enough to at least trust the slot to some extent. Will have to read over during night but if I don't come out Day 3 there's my suspicions.

[Cometbright]

I want to believe Timmer is town here. Might have a few doubts and yeah the hammer is bad but ughhhhh...

Can really see Knott!scum here but also am worried I might be getting too focused on him and not spotting lurky scum or something. Obviously we need to be careful tomorrow with the potential of ELO. Praying that somehow you flip scum here Dragon even if it's looking so unlikely right now...

[Cometbright]

Hello I've got DnD today and a pretty busy schedule so probably won't be around much to discuss. Before I go though a few things:

For the newbies, if you are a Doctor, Cop, Jailkeeper or Mason and you are not Timmer, you should claim now as you know with 100% certainty that Timmer is lying about his role.

Also for the newbies, no kill tonight means that either A: a doctor healed the person being attacked, B: a jailkeeper jailkept the person being attacked, C: a jailkeeper jailkept the person doing the attack or D: the mafia chose to no kill.

Now normally mafia won't no kill as you give up a lot of tempo and delay the game further which is usually bad for them, but since we're currently in MELO (if we execute the wrong person here we lose as scum could nightkill and endgame the town) there's probably a pretty good case for the mafia intentionally holding their kill to keep the pool of suspects wider and increase the chance of a wrong execution.

[Cometbright]

I think with claims the usual method is doing roleclaims first then announcing who you actually targeted once everyone has done so as it forces scum to roleclaim themselves without knowledge of what actual PR's have done.

[Cometbright]

I doubt scum risked no killing here

How come?

[Cometbright]

Frankly I'm not even entirely sure if we should be claiming here.

[Cometbright]

(Unless your claim contradicts Timmer then I think claiming is the right play.)

[Cometbright]

Cool so we don't vote outside of Timmer and Merlyn today.

50/50 - we win and we get to repeat this again tomorrow, we lose and we get endgamed. I guess it saves me having to actively read the rest of you for now.

[Cometbright]

Pigeon invested python.

This is strange to me because Pigeon seemed pretty set on Python being town throughout most of Day 1 - I know you can't answer for him but why would he pick Python to investigate?

[Cometbright]

I have no idea why Python were Nightkilled. I considered them obv-town, but the most of you didn't share this.

I suppose there's an argument to be made he checked them because others were unsure but I dunno, I don't think Python was anywhere near the Day 1 chopping block compared to other people.

[Cometbright]

Do i remember correctly that the merlyn slot was put to e-1 at some point d1

It was put to E-1 and Python fake-hammered it.

The people on the vote were: Gimli, Python, Black, Dragon. All confirmed town except Black/Dann/you.

[Cometbright]

I think you're town fwiw - does there being 4 townie on VIP/Merlyn's slot fake hammer wagon make Merlyn look worse or better to you? Or no indication either way?

[Cometbright]

Darn I’m phone posting. That is in response to Comet at 1124

Yeah I think that was my only conclusion which I mentioned in #1128 but even then I just feel like Pigeon would have better people to investigate. Sadly I can't actually ask him about it.

[Cometbright]

Is this to me?

That fakehammer was just odd to me, obviously it must be a gambit people do here. But having never seen it happen, I don't know how to interpret it at all.

Was to Dann cause he's the sole unconfirmed player on the Day 1 VIP fakehammer wagon. Gimli, Python and Dragon all flipped town after all.

[Cometbright]

probably worse

This was my read on it too.

[Cometbright]

I dunno I have more thoughts on this but I kinda wanna wait for Timmer and Merlyn to actively discuss this out a bit before I insert my takes.

[Cometbright]

Yup yup. Lim me tomorrow if I'm lying, but Timmer has to go today.

Given if you're lying and we lim Timmer, we get endgamed, so this isn't really an option.

LOL I thought Timmer was town after yesterdays lolhammer. The only folks I'd be checking are Knott, you, and Kittie, but Knott was the one I wanted to resolve first.

Obviously I'm biased but yeah Knott would have been my investigate too.

Uh huh. Convenient that you left it open to pretty much anyone.

To be fair he did ask/indicate multiple times he wanted/was ready to say who he had targeted - you also line up with his brief description of who he had jailkept before he revealed it as you.

[Cometbright]

They were the most clearly townie player in the game imo, I thought they had the best chance of being targeted for a kill.

I felt like I was a pretty prime target for a early night-kill (highest post-count, seemed fairly town-read across the board, had pretty clearly indicated who I was suspicious of making me a good kill to either shut me up or to frame someone) so looking from Jailkeeper!Timmer perspective this checks out.

[Cometbright]

So way I see it there are two options here:

If Timmer scum then Merlyn is cop and scumteam of Timmer/??? deliberately chose not to night kill.

If Merlyn scum then Timmer is indeed the jailkeeper who jailkept Merlyn and likely stopped her from killing (there is still a world though where scumteam Merlyn/??? chose not to night-kill).

The question I suppose comes down to do you think it's more likely that scum deliberately no-killed to cast suspicion or do you think mafia was blocked from killing via Jailkeeper.

[Cometbright]

I'm a little alarmed by the sudden consensus that merlyn is more likely to be lying

Funnily enough this is the bit that stops me from being firmly on Timmer's side here. Town has gotten all the previous executes wrong - if you subscribe to the 'scum is controlling/influencing these wagons' theory then this Merlyn consensus feels weird.

[Cometbright]

Deliberately chose not to nightkill and then revealed a roleclaim unprovoked that would be immediately contested if it were false.

There's logic for both here. No nightkill means the potential pool of scum is higher and mafia doesn't care if it's ELO or MELO cause they win either way. A risky roleclaim also isn't that out of the left field because it forces town into a 1v1 where getting it wrong means scum wins. Even if town does get it right then town still has to get past ELO tomorrow - stats wise that doesn't work out too bad for scum. Also scum knows there's a PR out there somewhere - if the PR has a guilty on someone (as Merlyn is claiming in this case) then scum aggressively claiming to try and shut down any such turnabout would make sense.

Not saying I fully subscribe to this - but it's not as unlikely/impossible as you might think.

[Cometbright]

can i ask who everyone's guess for merlyn's partner is?

The annoying thing is everyone who could be Merlyn partner (Dann, Kittie, Knott) all have reasons why I don't view them as partners. I think I'm ruling out Dann because Black's reaction to the VIP/Merlyn slot fakehammer did not seem like a scum who actually thought their partner just got surprise hammered (unless Black knew it was fake and was acting which tbf is possible) so between Kittie/Knott I think I lean towards Kittie as Knott has had a lot of argument/clashes with VIP whereas Kittie's clashes felt a lot weaker and with no actual votes behind it. That being said the strange turnaround from Timmer to Merlyn from Knott does feel weird and could easily be scum switching gears and wagoning their partner as the town consensus seems to be leaning against Merlyn and they don't want to be top scum candidate if Merlyn flips scum.

[Cometbright]

In regards to Timmer scumpartners...

Knott tried to E-1 them without warning - that'd be super ballsy for a scumplayer... not impossible but enough to have this scumteam pretty low down. Kittie I think he has only addressed once a single time super early into Day 1, he has defended her in passing though... perhaps new!scum in a team together not realising a lack of interactions looks pretty bad? Black/Dann also has scumteam potential - I know Knott mentioned the 'wagon dissuading' thing which I don't reeeally find too scummy but I can absolutely see Black coaching Timmer halfway into Day 1 because his posting was pretty sparse and suspicion was slowly piling up and then having that mini-argument in thread to set-up this sudden re-engagement/improvement of playstyle... though maybe that's reading a bit too much into it.

[Cometbright]

when?

UNVOTE:

I’m sorry, but does no one else see what I see. Black, Timmer and either VIP or Gimli?

That’s my scum, now.

VOTE: Timmer

At the time of vote mod error had the votecount listed as me and VIP voting for Timmer so he appeared to be at E-2 - the vote by you put him at E-1 from our perspectives (which you can tell as he says as much in #688).

So both Gimli and I are at 3 votes and you vote this bluntly without explanation and without mentioning it is e-1?

[Cometbright]

And Comet why are you hung up on that. when this:-

I'm not accusing you of breaking the rules. What are you arguing here? I mentioned that you put Timmer to E-1 unannounced which indicates to me that if Timmer is scum then it's unlikely you're his partner. Are you arguing that you are Timmer's scum partner here?

[Cometbright]

If Timmer is scum then yeah Knott is (probably) town.