Mini Normal 2316 | Halloween | Endgame

[BlackStar]

Hi, guys

VOTE: Wartortle

[BlackStar]

If you could produce a specific example to support that because I briefly skimmed some other games of his and nothing really strikes me the way that 24 does. It just really hits as a scum fretting over apperance whereas I think Town would probably be chill enough to just let the naked vote lie.

IDK it seems like the type of thing that I might post, so it didn’t feel scummy to me.

[BlackStar]

either wizzler is super new to mafia and genuinely has thought processes like this as town, or wizzy is new but not

super

new to mafia and tries to badly pocket affrayed like this as scum

In the game that I played with Wiz recently, he was scum and made a lot of posts like that. I wanted to wait and see if he made more posts that reminded me of that game instead of immediately pointing it out though

[BlackStar]

UNVOTE: Wartortle

[BlackStar]

either wizzler is super new to mafia and genuinely has thought processes like this as town, or wizzy is new but not

super

new to mafia and tries to badly pocket affrayed like this as scum

In the game that I played with Wiz recently, he was scum and made a lot of posts like that. I wanted to wait and see if he made more posts that reminded me of that game instead of immediately pointing it out though

would he have illogical posts like that as town too?

That's the only game that I've played with him, so I don't know

[BlackStar]

The interaction between DragonEater and Annie feels TvT to me

[BlackStar]

The interaction between DragonEater and Annie feels TvT to me

Who're your scumreads?

Smileydude and TheHoldSteady

[BlackStar]

What about you?

[BlackStar]

What about you?

Well... this feels like buddying scum
this post feels so off

How?

[BlackStar]

I'm not sure :/

Smiley and THS I was scumreading at some point as well as OWER, but none of these are as strong right now as they were.

I think I want to see more posts from all three of them honestly.

Why are you scumreading these two?

Pedit: I don't really agree Naerys :/

The posts THS made asking Wartortle if he had previous experience felt kind of pointless to me. One of Watortle’s first posts was him mentioning that he was used to shorter days, so I didn’t get why THS was asking if he’d played before after that. It just seemed like fluff posting to me

The only post he’s made so far where he took a stance on something was when he brought up the perspective that OutworldER was scummy.

Smileydude just gives me a weird vibe so far

[BlackStar]

BlackStar (IDK why I keep calling you DarkStar in my head), do you still feel Wiz is posting like in his scumgame?

It’s too early to be sure about it, but he seemed to just sit on the fence a lot and not claim to scum read anyone unless a lot of other people had already expressed a scum read on that person in that game. He seems more proactive here so far, so I have a slight town lean on him

[BlackStar]

What about you?

Well... this feels like buddying scum
this post feels so off

How?

It feels like " look how i am working with town to catch the scum", attempt to get some info and position urself into town reads

I just want to know what he’s thinking lol

[BlackStar]

I'm not sure :/

Smiley and THS I was scumreading at some point as well as OWER, but none of these are as strong right now as they were.

I think I want to see more posts from all three of them honestly.

Why are you scumreading these two?

Pedit: I don't really agree Naerys :/

The posts THS made asking Wartortle if he had previous experience felt kind of pointless to me. One of Watortle’s first posts was him mentioning that he was used to shorter days, so I didn’t get why THS was asking if he’d played before after that. It just seemed like fluff posting to me

The only post he’s made so far where he took a stance on something was when he brought up the perspective that OutworldER was scummy.

Smileydude just gives me a weird vibe so far

I was just waiting in the wings for a scum to hop on my bandwagon fot a dumb af reason and here it is.

Again, I'm VLA until Monday

If I wanted to join your wagon, I would’ve joined it. The game has barely started, so it’s silly to expect anyone to have strong reasons for their feelings yet

[quote=OutWorldER post_id=13966211 time=<a href="tel:1698516002" style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">1698516002</a> user_id=34889]
"Hop on the bandwagon"? BlackStar doesn't even have a vote down as of right now (which admittedly bothers me despite him having SR's on two people both of which he could reasonably place a vote down on). Incredibly defensive, my confidence in a THS vote only increases.

I've been accused of being scum in almost every town game I've played on here and my scum games, nobody suspected me. You can't read me brah, but I'm tired of explaining these dumb reasons away. Of course I didn't mean hop on the bandwagon in a literal way. I meant it as a euphemism. What next dumb reasons do you want to bring up?

VOTE: THS

Go ahead, do it. Idc
[/quote]

This rage and frustration seems like an overreaction, but it also feels genuine.

[BlackStar]

I always mess up quotes lol

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Smiley

This feels like the right move

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Smiley

This feels like the right move

Why did you wait, and what changed your mind?

Also, is nobody going to ask why I think this feels like a Newbie game?

I wanted to see more posts from THS and Smileydude. THS raging, calling everybody dumb and self voting felt really townie. Smiley hasn’t posted in a while, so I want to pressure him into being more active so I can sort him

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Smiley

This feels like the right move

Why did you wait, and what changed your mind?

Also, is nobody going to ask why I think this feels like a Newbie game?

This is a simple game. So finding scum should be simple. Right?

Maybe if we ask nicely they’ll tell us who they are

[BlackStar]

@Smileydude1

Besides THS, who do you town read right now?

[BlackStar]

I’m not opposed to y’all pressuring them to get us more info.

Ya'll? Why don't you pressure me yourself? You definitely seem more hesitant this game to step on any toes.

In the same paragraph that quote is taken from, I state that I don’t think you’re scummy then—I’m fine with them pressuring you

if it helps them figure you out

and focus on someone with a better case against them. Why vote someone back to E-2 if I have several other scumreads ahead of them.

Plus, I would say spending like 10 posts in a row debating with DragonEater about how I think him and Wartortle are scummy isn’t being hesitant to step on toes, nor is sharing a theory about Naerys sheeping multiple people.

Are you saying that you don’t need to figure him out?

[BlackStar]

@Smileydude1

Besides THS, who do you town read right now?

Right now my top townreads are Python and Wartortle. Would put Dragon and Hold right behind them

Why do you have Python so high up?

[BlackStar]

I agree we haven’t had much direct interaction, but I think that fact supports my theory instead of weakening it—it’s weird to have me as a top townread and sheep my reads when we’ve not interacted aside from me saying that I want to trust her once.

I think all of that was part of subtle attempt at making me want to further trust her over time without having any easy, quotable evidence like directly saying she trusts me or likes me or something. It’s quite natural to trust people who have similar reads, especially if other people are against those reads, right—that’s the way I think she was trying to pocket me.

Plus, out of everyone in the town, I was probably the best candidate for her to try that on, since I’m new, already reading her favorably, and have reads that other people are against.

VOTE: animatedwiz

I don’t get why you’ve spent so much time talking about how you’re suspicious of Naerys but you don’t seem to have any intention of voting her. It feels like you want approval from everyone first

[BlackStar]

I agree we haven’t had much direct interaction, but I think that fact supports my theory instead of weakening it—it’s weird to have me as a top townread and sheep my reads when we’ve not interacted aside from me saying that I want to trust her once.

I think all of that was part of subtle attempt at making me want to further trust her over time without having any easy, quotable evidence like directly saying she trusts me or likes me or something. It’s quite natural to trust people who have similar reads, especially if other people are against those reads, right—that’s the way I think she was trying to pocket me.

Plus, out of everyone in the town, I was probably the best candidate for her to try that on, since I’m new, already reading her favorably, and have reads that other people are against.

VOTE: animatedwiz

I don’t get why you’ve spent so much time talking about how you’re suspicious of Naerys but you don’t seem to have any intention of voting her. It feels like you want approval from everyone first

I’m explaining my theory because people keep questioning me about it.

Also, VOTE: DragonEater. Weird last three posts.

You were just talking about how you feel confident in your theory and then you go and vote for someone else entirely. I don’t get it

[BlackStar]

If I was scum and wanted to play in a way where I wouldn’t be caught, I would not be silly enough to repeat similar tactics that got me scumread by people in my last scum game… especially when those same people are now in this game, and on D1 no less.

Me sounding similar in both games is why BlackStar is scumreading me, and if I remember correctly, it’s the same for Hu Tao and, uh, maybe Enchant? Me sounding similar to last game to them doesn’t track with me attempting to fly under the radar.

I don't think that you sound that similar. In that last game, I was pretty sure that you were scum from almost the beginning. Right now, I'm still 50/50 on you being scum. I'm voting for you because you're giving off a vibe that feels like you're not really trying to solve and figure people out.

[BlackStar]

I am going for an op tmorrow ( having my gallbladder removed)
So i am not sure if i will be able to post tomorrow. I should be released on Wednesday, so i will see when i will be back.

Good luck with the operation

[BlackStar]

Catching up

hi

[BlackStar]

VOTE: SmileyDude1

No one finds this one suspicious? By suspicious i mean in "Not Townie Way". I am townie so i know how townie could act!

Elaborate

[BlackStar]

I like the posts that Black has made so far. The logic seems consistent and she’s putting in effort to figure people out.

Thestatusquo’s push on Wartortle because they think he’s lying about playing forum mafia feels weird.

And I wish that Enchant would dial down the trolling by like 20% lol

[BlackStar]

I like the posts that Black has made so far. The logic seems consistent and she’s putting in effort to figure people out.

Thestatusquo’s push on Wartortle because they think he’s lying about playing forum mafia feels weird.

And I wish that Enchant would dial down the trolling by like 20% lol

That is not the only thing I said about Wartortle. Nor was it the most important.

You said that he has a lot of takes that seem to go nowhere but you’ve spent more time talking about his his experience level, so I thought you cared more about that

[BlackStar]

I like the posts that Black has made so far. The logic seems consistent and she’s putting in effort to figure people out.

Thestatusquo’s push on Wartortle because they think he’s lying about playing forum mafia feels weird.

And I wish that Enchant would dial down the trolling by like 20% lol

That is not the only thing I said about Wartortle. Nor was it the most important.

You said that he has a lot of takes that seem to go nowhere but you’ve spent more time talking about his his experience level, so I thought you cared more about that

This doesn't seem like the post of someone who is actually interested in evaluating my thoughts. Like ok maybe you missed it or maybe you thought that the only thing that matters is 'what someone talks about the most.' Which is kind of Bizarre way to play Mafia to begin with, but you still don't engage with that thought in any way in this post.

Like if you were interested in evaluating my positions why would you post this sort of weird defense of yourself rather than actually talk about the argument I made?

This post just seems extremely self conscious.

"This feels weird" was the evaluation. You're saying stuff like "cut the crap" to him and accusing him of lying, so why would I not think that you thought his experience level was an important point? You haven't spent any time grilling him on his "endless takes" to try and find out what he believes. I don't see how anything that I said was self-conscious.

[BlackStar]

@Roden

Have you had a chance to get caught up yet?

[BlackStar]

I like the posts that Black has made so far. The logic seems consistent and she’s putting in effort to figure people out.

Thestatusquo’s push on Wartortle because they think he’s lying about playing forum mafia feels weird.

And I wish that Enchant would dial down the trolling by like 20% lol

That is not the only thing I said about Wartortle. Nor was it the most important.

You said that he has a lot of takes that seem to go nowhere but you’ve spent more time talking about his his experience level, so I thought you cared more about that

This doesn't seem like the post of someone who is actually interested in evaluating my thoughts. Like ok maybe you missed it or maybe you thought that the only thing that matters is 'what someone talks about the most.' Which is kind of Bizarre way to play Mafia to begin with, but you still don't engage with that thought in any way in this post.

Like if you were interested in evaluating my positions why would you post this sort of weird defense of yourself rather than actually talk about the argument I made?

This post just seems extremely self conscious.

"This feels weird" was the evaluation. You're saying stuff like "cut the crap" to him and accusing him of lying, so why would I not think that you thought his experience level was an important point? You haven't spent any time grilling him on his "endless takes" to try and find out what he believes. I don't see how anything that I said was self-conscious.

Even this post fails to actually engage with my argument about how he seems to lack follow through so I'm gonna just continue to ask what you think about it until you actually answer?

He’s bringing up points about people and then voting for them. It seems like he’s following through to me.

[BlackStar]

Does it seem to you like he's actually trying to make the lims he wants happen?

After rereading his ISO, I think you have a point about him not trying hard to push his reads through. Before I saw him as being willing to change his reads and adapt, but now it feels like he's just shifting his vote to anyone for weak reasons

[BlackStar]

@Wartortle

What's your current reads list?

[BlackStar]

Hm, on going back through their ISO, I both don’t see many questions (most are after you start questioning them around page, uh, 17 or so?) and also not a lot of stuff that feel like sorting. Lots of, “this person is spitting,” or “this is an issue, but not enough to do something about it,” which is weird (both because I somehow remembered them asking questions when they didn’t, and also because it’s very, uh, passive).

I feel like, um, early on they were pretty concise and stated their feelings on posts (which I said something about in 136), but after a while it gets a bit muddier about what they’re feeling—still have posts that are just as short, but they have far less clarity. They also admit to sheeping at one point, which is also pretty passive.

I wouldn’t say I scumread Python now, but this reread did evaporate the townread I had on them.

This feels opportunistic to me. You're casting shade on them without explicitly saying that you think they're scum which will make it easy to hop on the wagon later if it gains momentum

[BlackStar]

I feel like it would be way easier and less suspicious if I just… said I wasn’t sure about Python in the first place

here, instead of going, “I really trust them, oh wait, never mind.”

You already mentioned earlier that you town read them, so that wouldn't have worked

[BlackStar]

This feels opportunistic to me. You're casting shade on them without explicitly saying that you think they're scum which will make it easy to hop on the wagon later if it gains momentum

Huh? Why would he explicitly say he thinks their scum if he doesn't think that? Did you read his post or?

I said that it seems like he's setting the scene to hop on the wagon later on. That's why his post was negative towards python but ended with him putting them down as null. He's sitting on the fence and seeing how things play out

[BlackStar]

BlackStar just seems to be reaching here but it also could be conf bias

Maybe

[BlackStar]

This feels opportunistic to me. You're casting shade on them without explicitly saying that you think they're scum which will make it easy to hop on the wagon later if it gains momentum

Huh? Why would he explicitly say he thinks their scum if he doesn't think that? Did you read his post or?

I said that it seems like he's setting the scene to hop on the wagon later on. That's why his post was negative towards python but ended with him putting them down as null. He's sitting on the fence and seeing how things play out

I did something similar yesterday when I reevaluated my Steady read after looking at his past games, but you said you liked my posts. Did you like my posts just because everyone else did? I feel like if you're town here then you would have questioned my Steady stance a little more

You did a page by page explanation of your thoughts on everyone's posts. And right after you made that post about being how he could've potentially imitated his town meta, you said that you decided to town read him. I liked the transparency in your thought process.

That's not the same thing as Wiz pointing out his problems with python and then saying that he was null on them. And after looking back at that point in the game, I didn't see anyone say that they liked your posts before me

[BlackStar]

You already mentioned earlier that you town read them, so that wouldn't have worked

What I’m saying is, I could’ve just said I changed my mind in the first post I made and said all the stuff about, “they’ve become less clear over time and have been really passive,” instead of saying something that turned out to not be true first.

Unfortunately, it’s just that I held the town’s idiot ball for a bit.

P.E.: I think BlackStar is town—this feels like him last game, and a lot of the logic he’s using makes sense to me if he’s applying stuff he learned in the last game here to sort me.

Okay, I get your point.

And I probably am comparing you to that game a bit even though I'm trying to not rely on meta

[BlackStar]

I don't really like the way blackstar is interacting with the game.

What don't you like?

[BlackStar]

Ok, that's fair. I still think it's not unreasonable for Annie to put python in the null pile after townreading them and then finding out his main reason for townreading them wasn't really accurate

Yeah, I guess

[BlackStar]

Town Lean

TheHoldSteady
Roden
OutworldER
Thestatusquo
Black

Null

Wartortle
usesPython
Hu Tao
Smiley
Enchant
Naerys

Scum Lean

AnimatedWiz

[BlackStar]

Does it seem to you like he's actually trying to make the lims he wants happen?

After rereading his ISO, I think you have a point about him not trying hard to push his reads through. Before I saw him as being willing to change his reads and adapt, but now it feels like he's just shifting his vote to anyone for weak reasons

Just to clarify, you said this and then put Wartortle at the top of your neutral reads, right? Did anything happen in between these two points?

He was a town read for me and this is when I dropped him down to null.

I’m just now realizing that this isn’t that different from what I got on your case about, so I guess I should cut you some slack haha

[BlackStar]

Town Lean

TheHoldSteady
Roden
OutworldER
Thestatusquo
Black

Null

Wartortle
usesPython
Hu Tao
Smiley
Enchant
Naerys

Scum Lean

AnimatedWiz

Thanks. Can you talk about your Smiley read a little?

IDK, he and the people below him have been hard for me to get a read on. Smiley seems to have put effort into trying figure out a couple of people and explain why he town reads them. At a glance it doesn’t feel like he’s pushed that hard against his scum read, but Naerys seems to be ducking the question that he asked her so maybe it’s not fair to say that. I’m not sure about him yet

[BlackStar]

Does it seem to you like he's actually trying to make the lims he wants happen?

After rereading his ISO, I think you have a point about him not trying hard to push his reads through. Before I saw him as being willing to change his reads and adapt, but now it feels like he's just shifting his vote to anyone for weak reasons

@Wartortle

What's your current reads list?

good progression

town:
TheHoldSteady
SmileyDude1

leaning town:
BlackStar
OutWorldER

null:
Hu Tao
Black
Roden
usesPython

leaning scum:
Thestatusquo
Enchant

scum:
Naerys

dunno:
AnimatedWiz

If you have a null section, why do you also have Wiz in his own separate section called dunno?

[BlackStar]

Town

: Black, TheHoldSteady

Townlean

: BlackStar, thestatusquo, usesPython, Enchant

Null

: SmileyDude1, Hu Tao

Scumlean

: Wartortle, Naerys, OutworldER

Scum

: Roden

Why is Enchant a town lean for you?

[BlackStar]

DE/Roden, Black <--- Townread
Hu Tao, Smiley <--- Townlean
Naerys, THS <-- Null
Enchant, Python <-- Scumlean
AnimatedWiz, Wartortle <-- Scumread

Hu Tao gets a townlean from me because I genuinely don't think scum that's playing the way she is would make the vote she made in 264. Python was fairly passive during the Wiz wagon for reasons they've explained but their recent posting feels weird to me as their posts don't seem to align with their vote on Naerys. Naerys is still a null, I don't like her recent posting but I'm willing to chalk it up to surgery and tiredness. THS I'm just going to commit to not being able to sort this D1. Every other read I've expressed here I think I've expressed elsewhere and if not I can explain them.

Your list is missing thestatusquo and me

[BlackStar]

UNVOTE:

[BlackStar]

UNVOTE: Hu Tao
VOTE: Wartortle

Since we are slowly running out of time, i believe this is the best course of action.
E-1

VOTE: Wartortle

Wtf? Why would you hammer so fast?

[BlackStar]

UNVOTE: Hu Tao
VOTE: Wartortle

Since we are slowly running out of time, i believe this is the best course of action.
E-1

VOTE: Wartortle

Wtf? Why would you hammer so fast?

Why not

He claimed cop afterward. If he’s telling the truth, then you just lost us a PR. It doesn’t seem like you care

[BlackStar]

For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon.

It feels like it built up naturally.

[BlackStar]

For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon.

It feels like it built up naturally.

Oh? Who would you say is the scum that drove the wagon?

The votes from Python, Naerys and Enchant didn’t feel natural to me.

[BlackStar]

Who is Shea?

[BlackStar]

For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon.

It feels like it built up naturally.

Oh? Who would you say is the scum that drove the wagon?

The votes from Python, Naerys and Enchant didn’t feel natural to me.

I went ahead and used Ctrl+F to check Python's ISO for Wartortle mentions and their vote. What was it that you didn't like?

The part where they reread the game and gave us their reads on each page. It felt like that was all a show to justify hopping on the Wartortle wagon. Especially since they didn’t give us any insight on why they ranked people where they did as they were reading.

Before the reread, they said Wartortle was “spitting” a couple of times and sheeped him on an early read. The jump from that to voting him felt off. They even had Naerys ranked below him after the reread and still voted for Wartortle

[BlackStar]

We could have a protective role, or perhaps the scumteam elected to not use their nightkill?

We could have a protective role, or perhaps the scumteam elected to not use their nightkill?

Nah, personally never witnessed scum not using their nightkill. They need to weaken town as fast as possible, or they risk being found out and limmed.

We could have a protective role, or perhaps the scumteam elected to not use their nightkill?

Nah, personally never witnessed scum not using their nightkill. They need to weaken town as fast as possible, or they risk being found out and limmed.

Yeah, I think you’re totally right that killing would be the correct move on N1—I personally think the mindgames of a fake protective claim or something wouldn’t be as effective as just getting rid of the opposition, but maybe it’s WIFOM thing?

Food for thought, but we should definitely assume it was just a blocked kill, yeah.

This progression feels weird

[BlackStar]

The speed of going from "maybe they didn't kill anyone" to immediately agreeing that "not killing would've been the wrong" was too abrupt

[BlackStar]

I wanted to open with vote on Smiley.

Why do you want to vote for him? And why haven't you?

[BlackStar]

If you call someone brainless, there's no need for them to fake being upset. It was unnecessary on your part

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Black

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Black

Go on

It just seems like you’re controlling the flow of the game more than anyone else. You were one of the people who pushed the Wartortle wagon through. As soon as the day started you worked to get the Naerys wagon going.

You seem to make a lot of posts along the lines of “I think these people are partners, this looks like the solve” and the confidence behind those posts feels unearned.

This is admittedly weak, but I mostly just go off of vibes and tone. It feels like you just want to push lims through

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Blackstar

Why?

Like 60% gamestate read, I think going from being completely meh about the Wartle wagon to suddenly hating it and the people on the wagon after it went through is scummy as hell

I townread Wartortle early on and defended him in multiple posts. Then towards the end of the day I started to get swayed by the arguments about him not following through on his pushes and I stopped defending him.

I was away for a while and when I came back Naerys had dropped a weak vote on him followed by an immediate hammer from Enchant. It’s understandable that I would think the wagon was fishy after that rushed hammer on someone who didn’t seem that suspicious to me

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Blackstar

Why?

Like 60% gamestate read, I think going from being completely meh about the Wartle wagon to suddenly hating it and the people on the wagon after it went through is scummy as hell

And the attempt to shade Black could be attempt to pocket me. This warrants some thinking.

Why would scum want to pocket someone that nobody really trusts?

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Blackstar

Why?

Like 60% gamestate read, I think going from being completely meh about the Wartle wagon to suddenly hating it and the people on the wagon after it went through is scummy as hell

I townread Wartortle early on and defended him in multiple posts. Then towards the end of the day I started to get swayed by the arguments about him not following through on his pushes and I stopped defending him.

I was away for a while and when I came back Naerys had dropped a weak vote on him followed by an immediate hammer from Enchant. It’s understandable that I would think the wagon was fishy after that rushed hammer on someone who didn’t seem that suspicious to me

Are you unironically scumreading Enchant for quickhammering someone day 1?

I scumread them at the end of D1, yeah. I don’t now

[BlackStar]

Are you unironically scumreading Enchant for quickhammering someone day 1?

I scumread them at the end of D1, yeah. I don’t now

Have you played with Enchant before

Nope

[BlackStar]

Based on that fight with Black, I’m like 90% sure that Roden is town

[BlackStar]

I don't think your Enchant read is real

[BlackStar]

I don't think your Enchant read is real

Spoiler: unspoilered gifs bad, side text

What made you go from scumreading Enchant for the hammer to not scumreading them

I agreed with them that all the posts speculating about the lack of might kill felt kind of forced. And I was thinking about voting for Smiley too going into this day & Enchant said the exact same thing. So their views started to line up with mine a lot.

Also I like how they don’t seem to care at all about what people think of their posts lol

[BlackStar]

I don't think your Enchant read is real

Spoiler: unspoilered gifs bad, side text

What made you go from scumreading Enchant for the hammer to not scumreading them

I agreed with them that all the posts speculating about the lack of might kill felt kind of forced. And I was thinking about voting for Smiley too going into this day & Enchant said the exact same thing. So their views started to line up with mine a lot.

Also I like how they don’t seem to care at all about what people think of their posts lol

Why didn't half the playerlist going "Yeah Enchant always quickhammers d1" factor in to your initial SR of Enchant

Because it’s crazy to immediately disregard the possibility that someone quick hammering is scum. If they do that all the time they can do it as either alignment when they know people will just see that as typical for them

Like your progression feels unrealistically "clean", idk how to explain the vibe. It feels like you're putting out "good" reasons to pivot away from Enchant but those reasons don't really feel real

I think it's that your initial Enchant SR doesn't jive with how quickly you got off them with the reasons that you give

Don’t know what to tell you. I like the posts they’ve made today, so I townread them now

[BlackStar]

Based on that fight with Black, I’m like 90% sure that Roden is town

I think I’m running into the issue that over half the town has gotten really heated at one point or another already—it’s become less and less alignment-indicative with each frustrated post, at least for me.

Running out of people who haven’t gotten outwardly upset, y’know?

I wasn’t town reading him for the frustration. Well, I guess that was a small part of it. His posts in that exchange with Black just came across as more logical to me, whereas Black seemed like she was flailing and just being defensive

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Black

Go on

It just seems like you’re controlling the flow of the game more than anyone else. You were one of the people who pushed the Wartortle wagon through. As soon as the day started you worked to get the Naerys wagon going.

You seem to make a lot of posts along the lines of “I think these people are partners, this looks like the solve” and the confidence behind those posts feels unearned.

This is admittedly weak, but I mostly just go off of vibes and tone.

It feels like you just want to push lims through

I don't get why people are jumping on OWER for 1067

I just wanted a wagon

and I don't really care if it's on OWER or Roden. In this situation at least OWER is putting in effort (and in a respectful way) so a Roden wagon it is

Come on guys

[BlackStar]

alright, I got back from work fairly early, so I'll drop this now and then probably go to sleep, and respond to whatever is posted in response in the morning when I wake up

Spoiler: WHEN YOU JUMP TO IT AND YOU CAN'T GO THROUGH IT AND YOU CAN'T KNOCK IT DOWN

Black vs Roden, I think, is incredibly obvious TvS, and Roden is the very obvious scum in this situation. It feels this D2 Roden came from a completely alternate universe than D1 Roden. His assertion that Black can't vote scum does not track with his own stated reads, where Black's vote has been, and his own (lack of) defense of the Wartortle wagon. Look at the following quotes here:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall

I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately

Because I know for a fact you don't

huh?

Roden thinks you and OWER are scum but for some reason he seems to think I can't vote for scum

Thats quite weird. Seems like scum was caught being inconsistent.

Y'all said this about Wartortle and he flipped town. Wake up.

Everyone hop on. I'm driving this wagon off the cliff

Vote this off tomorrow so this slot doesn't make us lose in ELO please

If you were to replace into this game right now, and the first posts you saw were these, you'd think that Roden would've been hard defending Wartortle D1 and heavily against his elim. This isn't true to reality though, because if we look at his ISO D1:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 2nd

Sorry, I had trouble connecting to the site the last couple days. I had caught up when it was 15 pages and I'm just going to give my thoughts from there. As of now I'll be playing in the present and just catch up over the night phase.

Smiley: Seemed odd early on but I agreed with a lot of his posts. 210 and 353 are posts I especially liked and thought were townie.

Hu Tao: A lot of nothing for awhile, but I think that's townie for her judging by past experience. Which maybe sounds mean and I don't intend to mean it that way, but I've seen them be very active/proactive as scum and I don't think their attitude matches their scum games so far.

Naerys: I don't agree with most of the reasoning she's given for her reads. 152 is the only post I kinda like, but even then she only null reads Star later on, which is just off to me. I hate the Wartortle and Smiley reads.

Wiz: Idk why this player has been getting scum read, and I don't agree with the previous player in my slot. Wiz has been pretty solvey all game, and he's been one of the most active players. This game has been too inactive for scum to actively decide to put so much attention on themself like he has.

Wartortle: A self proclaimed town leader that I'm fine with town binning for now. Depending on flips, I could see him potentially being a power wolf, but it feels very unlikely.

Enchant: Pass.

Heip: Hard to follow what's going on with him, but he looks like lim bait. Going on the backburner for later.

Hold: I got genuine townie outrage from him and feel some empathy there. I think this is just town.

OWER: 345 rang alarm bells for me, it read like panicked scum who was scrambling around all of the replace-ins. The fact he moved his vote later on solidifies this for me.

Star: Has some LAMIST posts that I didn't like. I have a scum lean here but it's based mostly on vibes.

Knott: Nothing to comment on. I'm hoping Shea town tells.

Python: I like posts 125 and 327, I feel fine setting them aside as town.

VOTE: Naerys

Explain maybe?

Your vote on Naerys feels opportunistic. When reading your catchup post it feels like you mainly scumread her for having bad reads which isn't even really scum indicative. When I compare your read on her to OWER and to an extent BlackStar I feel like your vote should have gone to one of the latter two, but instead it goes on Naerys who just so happens to be one of the leading wagons

Nothing in your catchup gave me enough town vibes to make me reconsider my scumlean on DE

Initially I had an issue with your readslist because I thought it was ordered and that didn't match your reads but looking at it in more detail, it seems like you just threw names into the piles without ordering them. Correct me if I'm wrong here

Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear but I mainly scum read her for the

reasoning

she gave for her reads, not because she had bad reads. I specifically hate the Smiley read because I think he'd done enough to not be a null slot, and I hate the Wartortle scum read because it had zero lead up to it and it didn't match up with their prior interactions.

I would vote OWER, but 1) I haven't fully caught up and I want to know the context of why he changed his tune about his Wiz, 2) I don't have enough buy in and good will to start a brand new wagon two days before deadline, and 3) I still think Naerys is scum, and of my three scum reads she's the most likely slot I can successfully vote out.

As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.

Also yeah, my reads list isn't ordered, but only because it isn't final yet.

For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon. It feels like it built up naturally.

The first two quotes are like...the most Roden ever offered in defense of Wartortle, and the last one is almost outright an endorsement of the wagon. Roden's read on Wartortle is also incredibly hedgy, stating a weak TR on the slot while also proclaiming he could see him being a "power wolf". Roden also does basically nothing to push his "preferred alternative" (Naerys) at all D1. His readslist, initial vote, and some weak justification offered

almost entirely in defense of himself

is the most he ever does to try and push Naerys D1.

These two narratives are completely incongruous with one another and the scum motivation here should be obvious: Scum lets a town-led miselim through while off-wagon, then beats Town over the head D2 with the fact of their mislim to try and gain some towncred off of an "I told you so" narrative. Except in this case Roden didn't even bother to try and pretend he wasn't going to let the Wartortle elim go through in the first place.

The rest of the fight is just theatre on Roden's part:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 3rd

Woah calm down, Black

I mean the guy is purposely being snarky and rude just to piss me off and shade me. Mission accomplished. I'm not personally attacking him, I just said I don't give a fuck if he thinks my response is real or not

Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky

I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated

Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip

And you're still doing that today

I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately

First of all...rude

Second, you think Naerys, OWER, and Enchant are all town? Because I know for a fact you don't. So why the shade?

Who are you voting

You said I'm not capable of voting scum, which implies you don't think I've voted for scum this game. So yeah this is pure shade and I think you know I'm town

I'm telling you to stop fucking around with bad votes and pointless shade

It's Day 2 and you're voting someone you barely have a case on. Do you seriously have so little information that you can't formulate a legitimate case? Do you find it impossible to work with other people and try to reset after making a bad mis-elim go through?

Idk what your problem is but your attitude is atrocious and your ego is embarrassing

These potshots are utterly divorced from the reality of the game, especially the first one. Go back and read those quotes where Roden talks to Black D1. The responses from both players are civil, and in the context of Black's 692, 696 and 697 the frustration coming from Roden seems incredibly exaggerated and out of proportion. Black has been incredibly transparent with the DE/Roden read, both that she had a scumlean on him and that her read was also not entirely set in stone. If you want to say that Roden's anger here comes from being voted by Black, I'd counter that he should reasonably have forseen this possibility from his interactions with her D1 and the fact that there was no NK from which to do NKA that could've affected Black's reads. The only thing that could've affected Black's reads was Wartortle's flip, but reading Black's ISO I think Black made it clear her read on Wartortle was divorced associatives-wise from her read on DE/Roden.

But the real kicker is, if you read these in a vacuum once again, it looks like Roden is a frustrated townie yelling at a person who he also thinks is a townie. Then:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 4th

Honestly I can't even town clear you Black for the way you're acting here because this isn't even the third time that I've pissed off scum so badly that they want me dead

Granted...they all won afterwards because everyone town read their genuine anger and played it up even after my mis-elim

Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky

I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated

Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip

And you're still doing that today

That's cap. I was clearly willing to re-evaluate in 697 and I even admitted I was wrong about one of my points in that post. But whatever dude

Yet you voted me without trying to engage with me first...interesting...

VOTE: Black

SUDDENLY WE FLIP GEARS COMPLETELY.

On the weakest, most incredibly reachy progression possible, which somehow even overrides his stated SR and vote on me beforehand. Go through Roden's ISO yourself and find where he

ever

states even a nominal suspicious of Black's slot, and you won't find until the literal 2 last posts he made in this argument. I think Roden realized that people were voting Black on (what I think is a) weak case (the idea that Black "goaded" Naerys into voting so Enchant would hammer) and realized he could twist it into trying to start something on Black (remember that at this point in the argument Enchant and BlackStar were still voting Black). Or just to throw it out there to try and improve his image and make it look like a TvT. The point is that I don't think this vote here comes from town.

I don't think any of Roden's part in this conversation comes from Town.

I think the entirety of Roden's posts here are about making himself look good and not about actual scumhunting.

I don't know how to end this wall.

VOTE: Roden

I think your argument against him doesn’t really work for two reasons, but I want to see Roden’s response before I share the issues I see with it.

[BlackStar]

BlackStar, I don’t think you’re wrong that Black is very limhungry, but she has been pretty keen to also defend townreads and such. Additionally, I don’t think pushing for an elimination is super scummy if she makes good arguments for the targets—I mean, we’re supposed to want the people we think are scummy to be eliminated, right?

I mean, it’s not like she denied wanting to eliminate people in her response to you in 924

(though I will say she didn’t technically confirm it either), and she was like this in our last game too—lots of “sharpness,” as Shea put it.

That post that you quoted had her literally saying “that’s not true”.

[BlackStar]

No, she says if what you’re implying by her wanting to create a wagon is that she wants the day to be short,

that’s

not true—she’s debating the reasoning for her pushes, not that she has them.

That is what I was implying and she just said a few posts ago that she doesn’t really care who we lynch. OWER making a case that Black herself doesn’t even seem that excited about doesn’t seem like a good reason to hop on a wagon. Especially since she claims to scum read Black. Why would you join a wagon with one of your top scum reads just like that?

And maybe it’s just me, but I only ever vote for the person I’m scum reading the most at the moment. Flipping around just based on what lim seems more likely to go through seems like a bad idea.

[BlackStar]

No, she says if what you’re implying by her wanting to create a wagon is that she wants the day to be short,

that’s

not true—she’s debating the reasoning for her pushes, not that she has them.

That is what I was implying and she just said a few posts ago that she doesn’t really care who we lynch. OWER making a case that Black herself doesn’t even seem that excited about doesn’t seem like a good reason to hop on a wagon. Especially since she claims to scum read OWER. Why would you join a wagon with one of your top scum reads just like that?

And maybe it’s just me, but I only ever vote for the person I’m scum reading the most at the moment. Flipping around just based on what lim seems more likely to go through seems like a bad idea.

EBWOP

[BlackStar]

Sorry, I didn’t notice that I reverted to the older term.

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Roden

I don't care and I lost interest, just kill Black tomorrow

Don’t just give up

[BlackStar]

TvT

Why do you think so?

[BlackStar]

VC 2.2

Monster Mash

Roden [4]:

AnimatedWiz, OutWorldER, Black, Roden

Black [1]:

BlackStar

OutWorldER [1]:

Enchant

Naerys [1]:

Hu Tao

Thestatusquo [1]:

TheHoldSteady

TheHoldSteady [1]:

Naerys

BlackStar [1]:

usesPython

Not Voting [2]:

TheHoldSteady, SmileyDude1

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2023-11-14 12:58:34).

Mod Notes:

The votes for THS are confusing. He’s listed as voting for Shea and also as not voting

fixed

[BlackStar]

alright, I got back from work fairly early, so I'll drop this now and then probably go to sleep, and respond to whatever is posted in response in the morning when I wake up

Spoiler: WHEN YOU JUMP TO IT AND YOU CAN'T GO THROUGH IT AND YOU CAN'T KNOCK IT DOWN

Black vs Roden, I think, is incredibly obvious TvS, and Roden is the very obvious scum in this situation. It feels this D2 Roden came from a completely alternate universe than D1 Roden. His assertion that Black can't vote scum does not track with his own stated reads, where Black's vote has been, and his own (lack of) defense of the Wartortle wagon. Look at the following quotes here:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall

I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately

Because I know for a fact you don't

huh?

Roden thinks you and OWER are scum but for some reason he seems to think I can't vote for scum

Thats quite weird. Seems like scum was caught being inconsistent.

Y'all said this about Wartortle and he flipped town. Wake up.

Everyone hop on. I'm driving this wagon off the cliff

Vote this off tomorrow so this slot doesn't make us lose in ELO please

If you were to replace into this game right now, and the first posts you saw were these, you'd think that Roden would've been hard defending Wartortle D1 and heavily against his elim. This isn't true to reality though, because if we look at his ISO D1:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 2nd

Sorry, I had trouble connecting to the site the last couple days. I had caught up when it was 15 pages and I'm just going to give my thoughts from there. As of now I'll be playing in the present and just catch up over the night phase.

Smiley: Seemed odd early on but I agreed with a lot of his posts. 210 and 353 are posts I especially liked and thought were townie.

Hu Tao: A lot of nothing for awhile, but I think that's townie for her judging by past experience. Which maybe sounds mean and I don't intend to mean it that way, but I've seen them be very active/proactive as scum and I don't think their attitude matches their scum games so far.

Naerys: I don't agree with most of the reasoning she's given for her reads. 152 is the only post I kinda like, but even then she only null reads Star later on, which is just off to me. I hate the Wartortle and Smiley reads.

Wiz: Idk why this player has been getting scum read, and I don't agree with the previous player in my slot. Wiz has been pretty solvey all game, and he's been one of the most active players. This game has been too inactive for scum to actively decide to put so much attention on themself like he has.

Wartortle: A self proclaimed town leader that I'm fine with town binning for now. Depending on flips, I could see him potentially being a power wolf, but it feels very unlikely.

Enchant: Pass.

Heip: Hard to follow what's going on with him, but he looks like lim bait. Going on the backburner for later.

Hold: I got genuine townie outrage from him and feel some empathy there. I think this is just town.

OWER: 345 rang alarm bells for me, it read like panicked scum who was scrambling around all of the replace-ins. The fact he moved his vote later on solidifies this for me.

Star: Has some LAMIST posts that I didn't like. I have a scum lean here but it's based mostly on vibes.

Knott: Nothing to comment on. I'm hoping Shea town tells.

Python: I like posts 125 and 327, I feel fine setting them aside as town.

VOTE: Naerys

Explain maybe?

Your vote on Naerys feels opportunistic. When reading your catchup post it feels like you mainly scumread her for having bad reads which isn't even really scum indicative. When I compare your read on her to OWER and to an extent BlackStar I feel like your vote should have gone to one of the latter two, but instead it goes on Naerys who just so happens to be one of the leading wagons

Nothing in your catchup gave me enough town vibes to make me reconsider my scumlean on DE

Initially I had an issue with your readslist because I thought it was ordered and that didn't match your reads but looking at it in more detail, it seems like you just threw names into the piles without ordering them. Correct me if I'm wrong here

Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear but I mainly scum read her for the

reasoning

she gave for her reads, not because she had bad reads. I specifically hate the Smiley read because I think he'd done enough to not be a null slot, and I hate the Wartortle scum read because it had zero lead up to it and it didn't match up with their prior interactions.

I would vote OWER, but 1) I haven't fully caught up and I want to know the context of why he changed his tune about his Wiz, 2) I don't have enough buy in and good will to start a brand new wagon two days before deadline, and 3) I still think Naerys is scum, and of my three scum reads she's the most likely slot I can successfully vote out.

As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.

Also yeah, my reads list isn't ordered, but only because it isn't final yet.

For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon. It feels like it built up naturally.

The first two quotes are like...the most Roden ever offered in defense of Wartortle, and the last one is almost outright an endorsement of the wagon. Roden's read on Wartortle is also incredibly hedgy, stating a weak TR on the slot while also proclaiming he could see him being a "power wolf". Roden also does basically nothing to push his "preferred alternative" (Naerys) at all D1. His readslist, initial vote, and some weak justification offered

almost entirely in defense of himself

is the most he ever does to try and push Naerys D1.

These two narratives are completely incongruous with one another and the scum motivation here should be obvious: Scum lets a town-led miselim through while off-wagon, then beats Town over the head D2 with the fact of their mislim to try and gain some towncred off of an "I told you so" narrative. Except in this case Roden didn't even bother to try and pretend he wasn't going to let the Wartortle elim go through in the first place.

The rest of the fight is just theatre on Roden's part:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 3rd

Woah calm down, Black

I mean the guy is purposely being snarky and rude just to piss me off and shade me. Mission accomplished. I'm not personally attacking him, I just said I don't give a fuck if he thinks my response is real or not

Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky

I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated

Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip

And you're still doing that today

I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately

First of all...rude

Second, you think Naerys, OWER, and Enchant are all town? Because I know for a fact you don't. So why the shade?

Who are you voting

You said I'm not capable of voting scum, which implies you don't think I've voted for scum this game. So yeah this is pure shade and I think you know I'm town

I'm telling you to stop fucking around with bad votes and pointless shade

It's Day 2 and you're voting someone you barely have a case on. Do you seriously have so little information that you can't formulate a legitimate case? Do you find it impossible to work with other people and try to reset after making a bad mis-elim go through?

Idk what your problem is but your attitude is atrocious and your ego is embarrassing

These potshots are utterly divorced from the reality of the game, especially the first one. Go back and read those quotes where Roden talks to Black D1. The responses from both players are civil, and in the context of Black's 692, 696 and 697 the frustration coming from Roden seems incredibly exaggerated and out of proportion. Black has been incredibly transparent with the DE/Roden read, both that she had a scumlean on him and that her read was also not entirely set in stone. If you want to say that Roden's anger here comes from being voted by Black, I'd counter that he should reasonably have forseen this possibility from his interactions with her D1 and the fact that there was no NK from which to do NKA that could've affected Black's reads. The only thing that could've affected Black's reads was Wartortle's flip, but reading Black's ISO I think Black made it clear her read on Wartortle was divorced associatives-wise from her read on DE/Roden.

But the real kicker is, if you read these in a vacuum once again, it looks like Roden is a frustrated townie yelling at a person who he also thinks is a townie. Then:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 4th

Honestly I can't even town clear you Black for the way you're acting here because this isn't even the third time that I've pissed off scum so badly that they want me dead

Granted...they all won afterwards because everyone town read their genuine anger and played it up even after my mis-elim

Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky

I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated

Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip

And you're still doing that today

That's cap. I was clearly willing to re-evaluate in 697 and I even admitted I was wrong about one of my points in that post. But whatever dude

Yet you voted me without trying to engage with me first...interesting...

VOTE: Black

SUDDENLY WE FLIP GEARS COMPLETELY.

On the weakest, most incredibly reachy progression possible, which somehow even overrides his stated SR and vote on me beforehand. Go through Roden's ISO yourself and find where he

ever

states even a nominal suspicious of Black's slot, and you won't find until the literal 2 last posts he made in this argument. I think Roden realized that people were voting Black on (what I think is a) weak case (the idea that Black "goaded" Naerys into voting so Enchant would hammer) and realized he could twist it into trying to start something on Black (remember that at this point in the argument Enchant and BlackStar were still voting Black). Or just to throw it out there to try and improve his image and make it look like a TvT. The point is that I don't think this vote here comes from town.

I don't think any of Roden's part in this conversation comes from Town.

I think the entirety of Roden's posts here are about making himself look good and not about actual scumhunting.

I don't know how to end this wall.

VOTE: Roden

I think your argument against him doesn’t really work for two reasons, but I want to see Roden’s response before I share the issues I see with it.

Roden's response was to self-vote, which I don't see how you take as anything but a scum claim (his top scumread [myself] comes down to drop mucho texto on top of him, and instead of fighting it he just gives up?), so I'm curious to hear this counter-argument you have.

Hi I just woke up at 1 PM in the afternoon. I'm mostly caught up.

Members of the town self vote all the time. Two townies did it in my last game. I was one of them lol

And I thought Black was his top scum read. Sure, I can share the problems I had with your argument. I wish he was defending himself though

[BlackStar]

alright, I got back from work fairly early, so I'll drop this now and then probably go to sleep, and respond to whatever is posted in response in the morning when I wake up

Spoiler: WHEN YOU JUMP TO IT AND YOU CAN'T GO THROUGH IT AND YOU CAN'T KNOCK IT DOWN

Black vs Roden, I think, is incredibly obvious TvS, and Roden is the very obvious scum in this situation. It feels this D2 Roden came from a completely alternate universe than D1 Roden. His assertion that Black can't vote scum does not track with his own stated reads, where Black's vote has been, and his own (lack of) defense of the Wartortle wagon. Look at the following quotes here:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall

I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately

Because I know for a fact you don't

huh?

Roden thinks you and OWER are scum but for some reason he seems to think I can't vote for scum

Thats quite weird. Seems like scum was caught being inconsistent.

Y'all said this about Wartortle and he flipped town. Wake up.

Everyone hop on. I'm driving this wagon off the cliff

Vote this off tomorrow so this slot doesn't make us lose in ELO please

If you were to replace into this game right now, and the first posts you saw were these, you'd think that Roden would've been hard defending Wartortle D1 and heavily against his elim. This isn't true to reality though, because if we look at his ISO D1:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 2nd

Sorry, I had trouble connecting to the site the last couple days. I had caught up when it was 15 pages and I'm just going to give my thoughts from there. As of now I'll be playing in the present and just catch up over the night phase.

Smiley: Seemed odd early on but I agreed with a lot of his posts. 210 and 353 are posts I especially liked and thought were townie.

Hu Tao: A lot of nothing for awhile, but I think that's townie for her judging by past experience. Which maybe sounds mean and I don't intend to mean it that way, but I've seen them be very active/proactive as scum and I don't think their attitude matches their scum games so far.

Naerys: I don't agree with most of the reasoning she's given for her reads. 152 is the only post I kinda like, but even then she only null reads Star later on, which is just off to me. I hate the Wartortle and Smiley reads.

Wiz: Idk why this player has been getting scum read, and I don't agree with the previous player in my slot. Wiz has been pretty solvey all game, and he's been one of the most active players. This game has been too inactive for scum to actively decide to put so much attention on themself like he has.

Wartortle: A self proclaimed town leader that I'm fine with town binning for now. Depending on flips, I could see him potentially being a power wolf, but it feels very unlikely.

Enchant: Pass.

Heip: Hard to follow what's going on with him, but he looks like lim bait. Going on the backburner for later.

Hold: I got genuine townie outrage from him and feel some empathy there. I think this is just town.

OWER: 345 rang alarm bells for me, it read like panicked scum who was scrambling around all of the replace-ins. The fact he moved his vote later on solidifies this for me.

Star: Has some LAMIST posts that I didn't like. I have a scum lean here but it's based mostly on vibes.

Knott: Nothing to comment on. I'm hoping Shea town tells.

Python: I like posts 125 and 327, I feel fine setting them aside as town.

VOTE: Naerys

Explain maybe?

Your vote on Naerys feels opportunistic. When reading your catchup post it feels like you mainly scumread her for having bad reads which isn't even really scum indicative. When I compare your read on her to OWER and to an extent BlackStar I feel like your vote should have gone to one of the latter two, but instead it goes on Naerys who just so happens to be one of the leading wagons

Nothing in your catchup gave me enough town vibes to make me reconsider my scumlean on DE

Initially I had an issue with your readslist because I thought it was ordered and that didn't match your reads but looking at it in more detail, it seems like you just threw names into the piles without ordering them. Correct me if I'm wrong here

Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear but I mainly scum read her for the

reasoning

she gave for her reads, not because she had bad reads. I specifically hate the Smiley read because I think he'd done enough to not be a null slot, and I hate the Wartortle scum read because it had zero lead up to it and it didn't match up with their prior interactions.

I would vote OWER, but 1) I haven't fully caught up and I want to know the context of why he changed his tune about his Wiz, 2) I don't have enough buy in and good will to start a brand new wagon two days before deadline, and 3) I still think Naerys is scum, and of my three scum reads she's the most likely slot I can successfully vote out.

As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.

Also yeah, my reads list isn't ordered, but only because it isn't final yet.

For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon. It feels like it built up naturally.

The first two quotes are like...the most Roden ever offered in defense of Wartortle, and the last one is almost outright an endorsement of the wagon. Roden's read on Wartortle is also incredibly hedgy, stating a weak TR on the slot while also proclaiming he could see him being a "power wolf". Roden also does basically nothing to push his "preferred alternative" (Naerys) at all D1. His readslist, initial vote, and some weak justification offered

almost entirely in defense of himself

is the most he ever does to try and push Naerys D1.

These two narratives are completely incongruous with one another and the scum motivation here should be obvious: Scum lets a town-led miselim through while off-wagon, then beats Town over the head D2 with the fact of their mislim to try and gain some towncred off of an "I told you so" narrative. Except in this case Roden didn't even bother to try and pretend he wasn't going to let the Wartortle elim go through in the first place.

The rest of the fight is just theatre on Roden's part:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 3rd

Woah calm down, Black

I mean the guy is purposely being snarky and rude just to piss me off and shade me. Mission accomplished. I'm not personally attacking him, I just said I don't give a fuck if he thinks my response is real or not

Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky

I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated

Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip

And you're still doing that today

I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately

First of all...rude

Second, you think Naerys, OWER, and Enchant are all town? Because I know for a fact you don't. So why the shade?

Who are you voting

You said I'm not capable of voting scum, which implies you don't think I've voted for scum this game. So yeah this is pure shade and I think you know I'm town

I'm telling you to stop fucking around with bad votes and pointless shade

It's Day 2 and you're voting someone you barely have a case on. Do you seriously have so little information that you can't formulate a legitimate case? Do you find it impossible to work with other people and try to reset after making a bad mis-elim go through?

Idk what your problem is but your attitude is atrocious and your ego is embarrassing

These potshots are utterly divorced from the reality of the game, especially the first one. Go back and read those quotes where Roden talks to Black D1. The responses from both players are civil, and in the context of Black's 692, 696 and 697 the frustration coming from Roden seems incredibly exaggerated and out of proportion. Black has been incredibly transparent with the DE/Roden read, both that she had a scumlean on him and that her read was also not entirely set in stone. If you want to say that Roden's anger here comes from being voted by Black, I'd counter that he should reasonably have forseen this possibility from his interactions with her D1 and the fact that there was no NK from which to do NKA that could've affected Black's reads. The only thing that could've affected Black's reads was Wartortle's flip, but reading Black's ISO I think Black made it clear her read on Wartortle was divorced associatives-wise from her read on DE/Roden.

But the real kicker is, if you read these in a vacuum once again, it looks like Roden is a frustrated townie yelling at a person who he also thinks is a townie. Then:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 4th

Honestly I can't even town clear you Black for the way you're acting here because this isn't even the third time that I've pissed off scum so badly that they want me dead

Granted...they all won afterwards because everyone town read their genuine anger and played it up even after my mis-elim

Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky

I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated

Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip

And you're still doing that today

That's cap. I was clearly willing to re-evaluate in 697 and I even admitted I was wrong about one of my points in that post. But whatever dude

Yet you voted me without trying to engage with me first...interesting...

VOTE: Black

SUDDENLY WE FLIP GEARS COMPLETELY.

On the weakest, most incredibly reachy progression possible, which somehow even overrides his stated SR and vote on me beforehand. Go through Roden's ISO yourself and find where he

ever

states even a nominal suspicious of Black's slot, and you won't find until the literal 2 last posts he made in this argument. I think Roden realized that people were voting Black on (what I think is a) weak case (the idea that Black "goaded" Naerys into voting so Enchant would hammer) and realized he could twist it into trying to start something on Black (remember that at this point in the argument Enchant and BlackStar were still voting Black). Or just to throw it out there to try and improve his image and make it look like a TvT. The point is that I don't think this vote here comes from town.

I don't think any of Roden's part in this conversation comes from Town.

I think the entirety of Roden's posts here are about making himself look good and not about actual scumhunting.

I don't know how to end this wall.

VOTE: Roden

The first problem I have with your case is that your argument seems to be based around the idea that he’s trying to appear like he was defending Wartortle before hard on D1. He hasn’t said anything to that effect, so everything you wrote after that is based on a flawed premise.

The second reason why it doesn’t work is that you said he suddenly flipped on Black and it was a random overreaction, but you’re ignoring the context a bit. Black voted for him and he said that Black can’t vote scum. It was obvious that he was saying that he knows he’s town and he’s frustrated that Black was voting for him, especially after her confident mislim yesterday.

But Black took the conversation in a completely different direction and started talking about all the other people she’s voted for and making the claim that Roden must be informed that they were all town. Roden asked her who she was voting for right now (him) and then Naerys jumped in and made a snarky post along the lines of “hello? Are you even paying attention to the game?”. She seemed to completely miss the point he was making and that just served to make him more frustrated. I’d get angry too after that.

His posts following that progression don’t feel like an overreaction when you take all of that into account, especially since Black kept egging him on and was also counting down how many people were on the wagon.

[BlackStar]

It's not a flawed premise because Roden has zero reason to come into the day with 948 unless he's trying to pull some "I told you so" kind of nonsense. All of the first three posts I quoted in that wall are trying to knock Black down for pushing a mislim. The implication here is obvious.

But Black took the conversation in a completely different direction and started talking about all the other people she’s voted for and making the claim that Roden must be informed that they were all town. Roden asked her who she was voting for right now (him) and then Naerys jumped in and made a snarky post along the lines of “hello? Are you even paying attention to the game?”. She seemed to completely miss the point he was making and that just served to make him more frustrated. I’d get angry too after that.

Okay, but Roden's last few posts in that argument do not, at all, follow with this narrative you're putting out. Look at 973, 974, 975. Roden is outright calling Black scum here, a progression that does not make any sense at all. You're trying to say that Roden's trying to vote off a person he thinks is town out of anger (if I'm understanding you're arguement correctly, and I may be stupid so it's possible I'm not), but that does not at all follow with those posts.

If he didn’t say that he defended Wartortle hard, it seems weird to me to say that he might have planned t do it in the future. He’s had all this time to say that and still hasn’t, so it seems like you’re pushing a hypothetical instead of basing your read on his actual actions.


I don’t know if he think Black is town or not. My point was that multiple people either unintentionally or intentionally seemed like o misunderstand what he was saying and it’s understandable that someone would be upset about that

[BlackStar]

I don't know what world you're living in BlackStar. Roden definitely lost his cool and made it personal after I voted for him. Saying I'm not capable of voting scum is a ridiculous take considering I've voted for two of his scumreads this game

Idk what to tell you. If he's town then he can't handle his emotions and maybe this game isn't healthy for him. If he's scum then he's pulling out all the strings to try to reverse the wagon (OMGUS, AtE, self voting)

He definitely could’ve handled it better

[BlackStar]

I've caught up. I think there's scum in the quiet contingent.

I don't really like how smiley and blackstar are like positioning themselves as voices of reason without really needing to take much risk and are letting the louder members of the town eat each other. I don't know if everyone yelling is town but I think the majority of them are.

Also I've done the exact thing roden is doing with the self vote lim my target tomorrow as both town and scum so I'm treating it as completely NAI.

I don’t think anyone has ever acused me of being the voice of reason lol. I’m barely ever sure about anything and terrible at explaining my thought process

[BlackStar]

I mean, but thats what I don't like about your ISO blackstar. You seem to be unwilling to push the game forward in any direction. It reminds of how scum look when they're worried that if they push the wrong person that they'll end up getting counterpushed or they can't think of anything to push so they fall back into the much safer pattern of pointing out slight flaws in things other people think rather than trying to advance their own thoughts.

I just second guess every thought about people that I have and don’t feel like sharing thoughts that I’ll probably back out on a page later. When I post, it’s because I feel somewhat strongly that it’s something important to mention

[BlackStar]

UNVOTE:

The way that Black was willing to reconsider her read on Roden felt townie to me. She could've kept pushing for his wagon to go through but she was able to take a step back and reconsider things

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Smiley

[BlackStar]

Town

TheHoldSteady
Thestatusquo
Roden
Enchant
usesPython

Null

Black
OutworldER
Naerys
Hu Tao

Scum

AnimatedWiz
Smiley

[BlackStar]

I guess this would be a little more accurate

Town

TheHoldSteady
Thestatusquo
Roden
Enchant
usesPython

Town Lean

Black

Null

OutworldER, Naerys (same level)
Hu Tao

Scum Lean

AnimatedWiz

Scum

Smiley

[BlackStar]

That's a lot of townreads. I wish I had your confidence

I don't think you have ever explained your Smiley scumread

I've flipped back and forth on you, Enchant and Python, so I don't think I'd call this confident lol

My Smiley is kind of hard to explain. He's made cases, but all of his posts give off a completely detached feeling. Like a bunch of people in this game have gotten passionate and gotten into fights to defend themselves or their opinions but his posts don't give off the vibe that he has any personal investment in what's happening or the things he says. I'm not saying that getting into fights makes you town but he barely feels like he's in the game

[BlackStar]

Smiley, Annie, and Hu Tao are my choices

[BlackStar]

This game has gone off the rails

[BlackStar]

I'm a doctor

If you're claiming you might as well fullclaim

I'm a doctor what else is there to claim?

Target cause you're claim isn't a mech clear even with the lack of nightkill

We're literally saying that a doctor claim after a no kill isn't a mech clear and asking for a fullclaim, how is that not an obvious soft

I read that as you thinking Hu Tao was lying but I didn’t think you were trying to soft something. That makes sense now though

[BlackStar]

Saying that someone is making bad reads is different from calling people useless and brainless like you guys have been doing

[BlackStar]

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

[BlackStar]

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

Why not Smiley?

These posts from right before the flip kind of felt like Wiz already knew that Hu Tao was town and he was setting things up for afterwards

Means we have to fill in the dots and assume stuff that might not be the case.

Which leads me to asking, if you’re still here with us, Hu Tao, that you shared your thoughts one last time to help us figure stuff out. Scum or townie, either works.

It was, yes. I think Python is really trying to make some good points and seeing who benefits the least from a townflip—I think if we’re wrong and Hu Tao flips green, there’s a bit more weight behind Python’s theorizing since it happened before the reveal.

[BlackStar]

I’m a bodyguard. I targeted Thestatusquo N1 and usesPython N2.

[BlackStar]

I’m town. I don’t really know anything about setups or roles so trying to figure out the game through that is hard for me

[BlackStar]

BlackStar, if I could ask, why did your read on Smiley change between 530 and 992? You never mentioned wanting to vote for Smiley during the beginning of D2, even when you responded to Enchant voting for him in 848.

I just looked at the votes at the end of D1 and tried to decide who seemed the most like scum. I looked at the people off the wagon first because I figured at least one of the scum would've been off of it and since there were fewer people off the wagon, it might be easier to narrow down who was suspicious.

I was town reading THS and Roden, so that left you and Hu Tao. Hu Tao seemed pretty much the same to me as the last game we played together where she was town, but she wasn't posting that much so I felt a little bit wary of her. That just left you and I didn't see much from your iso that would make me want to trust you. I didn't want to start tunneling you and being a jerk though, so I kept looking at everyone else.

Then I looked at the people who actually were on the wagon. I was town reading Thestatusquo, Black and usesPython so that left OWER, Smiley, Naerys and Enchant. I had a town read on OWER earlier in D1 but was starting to have more doubts about him. Naerys and Enchant were really hard for me to figure out and I had no idea how to get a better handle on them.

Smiley was the only person who I didn't really have any strong thoughts about at that point. It was hard to remember any specific things that he'd said or done and it felt like he just slipped his vote in there and faded into the background. So that's why I considered voting for him and pressuring him

[BlackStar]

ngl i briefly considered using my doc save on you but my role states i can only use one action and i didn't trust you as much after hu tao flipped town.

Literally why is everyone on a BP

Nobody died N1, so I thought you'd already been shot

[BlackStar]

I think python being scum is a possibility here but I don't particularly like BlackStar's response to being wagoned

In Mini Normal 2313 BlackStar was much more engaged and inquisitive as he was being run up. It felt like he was considering who was scum pushing him there and I'm not getting any of that here. Instead it feels like he wants to say as little as possible and isn't doing much other than answering softball questions from Annie

@BlackStar can we get a readlist from you

I was engaged because people were asking me nonstop questions. All the conversation right now is about speculation. Nobody is directly interacting with me, so there's not much for me to comment on.

This was the reads list I made when D2 ended, but I need to reread all the stuff from this day to see where I stand now

Town

Thestatusquo
usesPython
Enchant

Town Lean

Black

Null

TheHoldSteady
Roden

Scum Lean

OutworldER
Naerys

Scum

Smiley
AnimatedWiz

[BlackStar]

All the talk right now is about roles and what is and isn't possible and I don't know how any of that works. I guess I'll just go through the wikis or something

[BlackStar]

All the talk right now is about roles and what is and isn't possible and I don't know how any of that works. I guess I'll just go through the wikis or something

I feel like if you were town here then you would still be trying to solve outside of the mech talk. You don't really need to engage with the mech at all imo

How? If people were saying that they didn't understand something that I said then I could try to defend myself. But since nobody is saying anything to that effect, I don't have anything to work with. Half the votes on me have been placed without reasons and the other half are just people saying they don't think I'm the bodyguard. That's not enough information for me to try to decipher intentions

All the talk right now is about roles and what is and isn't possible and I don't know how any of that works. I guess I'll just go through the wikis or something

Don't you have 3.4k posts on this site? How would you not know about common Normal roles like Jailkeeper/JOAT/Bulletproof/Watcher?

I've been gone for like 5 years. Even before the break my eyes would glass over whenever people would start talking about this stuff

[BlackStar]

VOTE: BlackStar

This screams "it's time to bus" to me

That's e-2 and even though I'm like 95% down to fade BlackStar here, I don't think we should do it so fast. Trying to make him talk more is the play

Please no more votes. It really feels like scum is gearing up to have BS hammer himself

If you make it that blatant that he's getting limmed today he's gonna keep quiet lol

I'm at E-2. It's not a secret that I'm close to death

[BlackStar]

BlackStar, if I could ask, why did your read on Smiley change between 530 and 992? You never mentioned wanting to vote for Smiley during the beginning of D2, even when you responded to Enchant voting for him in 848.

I just looked at the votes at the end of D1 and tried to decide who seemed the most like scum. I looked at the people off the wagon first because I figured at least one of the scum would've been off of it and since there were fewer people off the wagon, it might be easier to narrow down who was suspicious.

I was town reading THS and Roden, so that left you and Hu Tao. Hu Tao seemed pretty much the same to me as the last game we played together where she was town, but she wasn't posting that much so I felt a little bit wary of her. That just left you and I didn't see much from your iso that would make me want to trust you. I didn't want to start tunneling you and being a jerk though, so I kept looking at everyone else.

I feel like your reasoning here for voting me is really off from what you’ve stated previously about your reads on me—in the past,

you said it was about how I seemed on the fence, like I was looking for group approval, and that I was acting similarly to my previous scum game. If it’s now just process of elimination out of those not on the Wartortle wagon, I feel like the story isn’t matching up properly.

Moreover, I’m unsure why you’re so concerned about your push on me when that’s not really been addressed at all today—it feels to me like you’re trying to preemptively defend against that line of questioning. It feels… performative?

It's both. And I'm not concerned about the push, I was explaining my entire thought process leading up to wanting to vote for Smiley

[BlackStar]

VOTE: usesPython

The simplest explanation for the lack of a night kill on N2 seems to be that Smiley really is the jailkeeper and you're scum

[BlackStar]

VOTE: usesPython

The simplest explanation for the lack of a night kill on N2 seems to be that Smiley really is the jailkeeper and you're scum

This feels more like a survival vote than an actual solve considering python was your top TR for most of the game

My top town read was thestatusquo or theholdsteady

[BlackStar]

This was the reads list I made when D2 ended, but I need to reread all the stuff from this day to see where I stand now

Town

Thestatusquo
usesPython
Enchant

Town Lean

Black

Null

TheHoldSteady
Roden

Scum Lean

OutworldER
Naerys

Scum

Smiley
AnimatedWiz

My top town read was thestatusquo or theholdsteady

Look who's at the top: thestatusquo. Black was talking about the majority of the game. If you look through the reads lists I've posted, you'll see THS near the top of most of them before that

[BlackStar]

Look who's at the top: thestatusquo. Black was talking about the majority of the game. If you look through the reads lists I've posted, you'll see THS near the top of most of them before that

Blacks point is that we're also on the top

She said that I had you at the very top throughout the game and that's not true.

[BlackStar]

Why did THS drop to null then if your TR was so strong there

He hammered Hu Tao and then both he and Wiz immediately seemed doubtful about if Hu Tao was actually scum, so I was suspicious

[BlackStar]

THS being null feels like you and the scumteam were preparing to push him today, or at some point. I don't think it's a coincidence that both Naerys and OWER shaded THS today as well

Damn scum really fucked up by leaving me alive. I feel like I'm on fire

*cut to postgame where I was completely wrong about everything*

If you're town then I hope you apologize if I get limmed

[BlackStar]

Oh you moved them both to scum leans actually, I didn't see that. Why?

Naerys was on both mis-lims and it doesn’t feel like she’s really doing anything. Out of the people who were off the D2 wagon, I trust OWER the least so that’s why I dropped him to a scum lean.

[BlackStar]

I'm town and your claim of jailkeeper seems legit. If we can also believe in Black's results from N2, then it seems like the only 2 possible answers for why there was no kill last night are either

a) Python is scum

or

b) The scum team chose not to kill anyone to make us lim whoever got jailed.

It seems unlikely that they would choose to go a second night without getting a kill, so option A has to be the asnwer.

[BlackStar]

I'm town and your claim of jailkeeper seems legit. If we can also believe in Black's results from N2, then it seems like the only 2 possible answers for why there was no kill last night are either

a) Python is scum

or

b) The scum team chose not to kill anyone to make us lim whoever got jailed.

It seems unlikely that they would choose to go a second night without getting a kill, so option A has to be the asnwer.

Thoughts on 1802.

Also can you explain why you chose the targets you did?

Most people were town reading Python. I don't think there was much risk in them carrying out the kill.

I just chose people who seemed to be town read by a lot of people.

[BlackStar]

I'm town and your claim of jailkeeper seems legit. If we can also believe in Black's results from N2, then it seems like the only 2 possible answers for why there was no kill last night are either

a) Python is scum

or

b) The scum team chose not to kill anyone to make us lim whoever got jailed.

It seems unlikely that they would choose to go a second night without getting a kill, so option A has to be the asnwer.

Why am I not a possibility for scum FYPOV?

When you claimed, I immediately assumed that you were lying because I would be dead if you tried to shoot thestatusquo. I wanted to claim right after that, but I decided to wait and see if somebody claimed to be a doctor or something like that because that could potentially clear you. Then Smiley said that he jailed you and it made sense that I was still alive.

I guess it is possible that you're also scum and Smiley got lucky with targeting scum both nights

[BlackStar]

Okay so i wanted to reread some people ISO, but the claims happened and that gives us something to work with. Also i am tired,first day after 14 days in work.
JOAT/ bodyguard claims are sus. One of these will be scum.
BlackStar/OWER/Enchant looks like a possible scum team.

Like if Naerys truly believes that one of THS/BS is scum then why would she want to vote for a VT all the sudden?

I saw that as evidence that she knows I’ll flip town

[BlackStar]

[BlackStar]

Okay so i wanted to reread some people ISO, but the claims happened and that gives us something to work with. Also i am tired,first day after 14 days in work.
JOAT/ bodyguard claims are sus. One of these will be scum.
BlackStar/OWER/Enchant looks like a possible scum team.

Like if Naerys truly believes that one of THS/BS is scum then why would she want to vote for a VT all the sudden?

I saw that as evidence that she knows I’ll flip town

Meh. Maybe I'm overthinking it. This post just made me think we could be getting played

If you’re town then you’re getting played by Python. If I’m understanding things correctly then the only possibilities for the lack of a night kill last night are that Python was jailed scum, scum chose not to kill anyone, or there’s an unclaimed doctor who saved someone else

[BlackStar]

Which of those sound the most likely?

[BlackStar]

What were all the night actions for N1 again?

[BlackStar]

Python deserved to go for constant mentions of notes PT and anime avatar

It's actually pretty funny that all the people getting scumread this game have anime pfp's

This is a video game avatar, fam

[BlackStar]

Python deserved to go for constant mentions of notes PT and anime avatar

It's actually pretty funny that all the people getting scumread this game have anime pfp's

This is a video game avatar, fam

are you trying to claim Persona isn't anime?

It was a joke lol

[BlackStar]

[BlackStar]

I’m more partial to eliminating BlackStar before UsesPython—I understand the suspicion of their spot,

but his claim and the way he’s responded to the pressure is far more scummy to me.

I think you might be getting distracted by a new scumread and forgetting your stronger one, Black.

Elaborate

[BlackStar]

Unless Black has a guilty result, I don't have a problem getting voted out today. The PoE is too small for scum to win at this point.

What was the point of posting this? You weren't even being considered for the chopping block

Because the game is kind of just over now. A Blackstar red flip puts us too far ahead for scum to win. There isn't really a point in trying to argue who should go out first.

It looks like you posted that before I claimed though

[BlackStar]

It looks like you posted that before I claimed though

Unless Black has a guilty result, I don't have a problem getting voted out today. The PoE is too small for scum to win at this point.

What was the point of posting this? You weren't even being considered for the chopping block

Because the game is kind of just over now. A Blackstar red flip puts us too far ahead for scum to win. There isn't really a point in trying to argue who should go out first.

That's not why you posted that

Sorry, I didn't realize you had mind-reading powers

You don't need to be a mind reader go see that your response doesn't really make sense. The game wasn't "over" when you made that first post, so your rationale for making it must have been different

[BlackStar]

I’m more partial to eliminating BlackStar before UsesPython—I understand the suspicion of their spot,

but his claim and the way he’s responded to the pressure is far more scummy to me.

I think you might be getting distracted by a new scumread and forgetting your stronger one, Black.

Elaborate

I explained some in 1760, but I’ll share more.

In 1734, when asked to share a readslist you gave one from the end of D2, and said you’d catch up and give a new one. Soon after, you say that you’re not really able to use the mech talk and how people respond to it to formulate reads, essentially absolving yourself of having to give a new readslist.

You’ve also been a bit quieter than in our last game, as Black mentioned in 1731—as if you’re trying to squeak by as our attention gets pulled elsewhere. I feel like Python’s far more active and trying to solve—both defending themselves and giving their alternate ideas. Out of the two most likely possibilities for the lack of nightkill (Python was jailed while attempting to NK, or you attempted to NK a jailed Python), it feels far likelier that you’re the scum.

Nobody is ever absolved of making a reads list. I forgot that Black asked for it, but here it is now

Town

Smiley
TheHoldSteady

Town Lean

Enchant
Black
Thestatusquo

Null

Roden

Scum Lean

OutworldER
Naerys

Scum

AnimatedWiz
usesPython


I don't think it's fair to say that I'm trying to squeak by. If I was scum who wanted to hide, there wouldn't have been any reason to defend Roden so hard earlier when his wagon gained momentum. And after everybody started being suspicious of me, I could've just pulled the classic scum move of saying that "I'll get caught up on the game soon" and then just never post anything. But instead I'm here and I answer any question or point that people make about me

[BlackStar]

It looks like you posted that before I claimed though

Unless Black has a guilty result, I don't have a problem getting voted out today. The PoE is too small for scum to win at this point.

What was the point of posting this? You weren't even being considered for the chopping block

Because the game is kind of just over now. A Blackstar red flip puts us too far ahead for scum to win. There isn't really a point in trying to argue who should go out first.

That's not why you posted that

Sorry, I didn't realize you had mind-reading powers

You don't need to be a mind reader go see that your response doesn't really make sense. The game wasn't "over" when you made that first post, so your rationale for making it must have been different

What context is missing then?

Black asked you why posted that. You said you posted it because the game was over and it didn't matter if we flipped me or Python first. But I hadn't claimed yet at the point when you made that post, so that couldn't have been your thought process at that moment in time

[BlackStar]

Ok, so I guess you meant that since most people had claimed it would be easy to find out who was lying. My bad

[BlackStar]

I don't know what y'all are trying catch me on here when I literally said you can vote me out and still win

Kind of a pointless thing to argue about or grill me on

I misunderstood you and it just seemed like you were changing the reason for what you originally said. I didn't know what the reason could be, but I didn't want to ignore what seemed like an inconsistency

[BlackStar]

I’m voting Roden because I know that if I jump on the BlackStar wagon, it could cause the the day to end early. I also just still do not like the vibes of Roden’s posting—it feels like fluff and he’s actively pushing for BlackStar’s elim, which makes me hesitate on it. I know one of BlackStar and Python is scum, but I’d really rather not sacrifice a townie too if we don’t have to (AKA I’d like to get it right the first time).

And also, I feel like if I wanted to set up for an elim on you, I’d just be quicker and more direct about it—I feel like a lot of my turnarounds on people like BlackStar have been far faster and more obvious. And what benefit do I have to eliminating someone who considered me locktown? It’s way better for scum!me to just play as your lackey and let you consider me town while I try to guide you to miselimming other people.

After I flip, Black would be one of the leading people behind 3 mis-lims. It doesn't matter that she considered you lock-town in the past because she would be an easy person to use as a target for the next lim after Python.

[BlackStar]

I’m voting Roden because I know that if I jump on the BlackStar wagon, it could cause the the day to end early. I also just still do not like the vibes of Roden’s posting—it feels like fluff and he’s actively pushing for BlackStar’s elim, which makes me hesitate on it. I know one of BlackStar and Python is scum, but I’d really rather not sacrifice a townie too if we don’t have to (AKA I’d like to get it right the first time).

And also, I feel like if I wanted to set up for an elim on you, I’d just be quicker and more direct about it—I feel like a lot of my turnarounds on people like BlackStar have been far faster and more obvious. And what benefit do I have to eliminating someone who considered me locktown? It’s way better for scum!me to just play as your lackey and let you consider me town while I try to guide you to miselimming other people.

After I flip, Black would be one of the leading people behind 3 mis-lims. It doesn't matter that she considered you lock-town in the past because she would be an easy person to use as a target for the next lim after Python.

3? I didn't want to fade Hu Tao

Sorry, I thought you did. Still, you led the Wartortle wagon and got this one started so it would be easy to start a wagon on you once I die

[BlackStar]

I think it’s E-2?

[BlackStar]

Mechanically i am against Python.

Reads wise i am against BlackJack.

What are your reads right now?

Also, I’m BlackStar not BlackJack haha

[BlackStar]

Can the people voting outside the 1f1 stop being useless

VOTE: usesPython

[BlackStar]

That readslist is incredibly strange and the progression of Voting BlackStar --> Thinking it's better to vote inside the VT's --> Python SR is not one that feels natural or real to me.

It feels weird to me too

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Blackstar

Let's hope this is right.

It's not

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Blackstar

Let's hope this is right.

You will regret stealing from me.

I'm pretty sure I'm at E-1 right now. But you should vote for Python instead

[BlackStar]

Nvm, I'm bad at math

[BlackStar]

Lim scum tomorrow, instead of town. Good luck

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Blackstar

Let's hope this is right.

It's not

Any legacy reads outside of Python scum?

Honestly, I have the same paranoia as Black that it's possible both of us are town and the mafia are playing us. I have no idea what you should do. I don't trust Wiz though

[BlackStar]

GG. The scum team did a great job. You did a good job too, Wiz