Open 887: Coalition of Frogs (Game Over)

[Merlyn]

VOTE: Ari for succumbing to Datisi's charms so easily

Do we have to vote all 5 people at once?

[Merlyn]

hello! how u doin?

i feel as though some burden of many years has been lifted, but i can't quite put my finger on it.

also jet lag

your scum meeting was that far away huh

outstanding burn

Hiya HoldSteady! Good to play with you again. Also, I will never vote you into the coalition

[Merlyn]

would actually not mind winning this game on page 10 with an all town coalition.

lol I wonder if I just guessed your main

[Merlyn]

second, do u have a problem with me being confident about my reads and feeling like we're awesome enough to win before page 10?

I said it was LAMIST because it feels like the kind of lamist mafia like to say in this format of games. you reframing it to "oh are you saying we're not awesome enough to win before page 10" is kind of ????

Personally I've never won coalition on page 10 and if you're town and you actually get us an early win I would be quite happy about that .

agree I don't know what you expected to get out of that question

[Merlyn]

what did THS do that's making folx scumread them again?

[Merlyn]

I dunno, some of that is a reach.

I don't ness. think Hero is scum for giving the reasons but I don't agree with them

pedit: Bella, for example: you think someone was gonna use try and use a joke about flying in from the scumthread to try and prove later he had a scumread on implosion?

[Merlyn]

I dunno, some of that is a reach.

I don't ness. think Hero is scum for giving the reasons but I don't agree with them

pedit: Bella, for example: you think someone was gonna use try and use a joke about flying in from the scumthread to try and prove later he had a scumread on implosion?

@mer, can you expand/reword this? I feel like the question is wieirdly specific when I've been talking about 'vibes' but maybe you can re frame?

yeah, I was responding to the post you made were you said you agreed with most or all of what Hero said. It surprised me that you said that bc I had just been writing a post about how some of the reasons were weaksauce. I was using the joke one as an example to ask you if you really meant it when you said you agreed with it all

[Merlyn]

UNVOTE: Ari

[Merlyn]

this might sound really silly but:
@drew, merlyn, kittens, implo - feel free to townspew yourself if you are town

already am

[Merlyn]

I am town, all my spew has to be town

I don't have any real reads yet, I'm not sure why. Even the folx I have some town leans on are so tentative I don't really know if they're townleans.

[Merlyn]

I dunno, some of that is a reach.

I don't ness. think Hero is scum for giving the reasons but I don't agree with them

pedit: Bella, for example: you think someone was gonna use try and use a joke about flying in from the scumthread to try and prove later he had a scumread on implosion?

@mer, can you expand/reword this? I feel like the question is wieirdly specific when I've been talking about 'vibes' but maybe you can re frame?

yeah, I was responding to the post you made were you said you agreed with most or all of what Hero said. It surprised me that you said that bc I had just been writing a post about how some of the reasons were weaksauce. I was using the joke one as an example to ask you if you really meant it when you said you agreed with it all

I meant mainly the two posts about Ari and TSH? What I was also intending to get across was I originally thought hero's push on tsh was more weaksauce, but is liked what they were saying about the 'feel' of the posts. I also particularly agreed with what hero said about the coalition and their reads in that specific order bc it parelled mine for similar reasons.

Ah, okay, I see where you were coming from with that

[Merlyn]

But I think it is +town just for the brazenness of a seemingly relatively new player being like "nah i'm really not playing how scum would be playing in this setup lol" in this way.

I want to lean town on THS bc I don't agree with most of the case that Hero laid out. But I think it's dangerous to paint THS with the 'new scum would never do X' brush bc I just came off of two games where he fooled me and just about everyone else as the most towny scum I've seen in a while. I don't know if he's played somewhere else before and I haven't asked but he's very good.

[Merlyn]

I almost expect more from Merlyn if she's scum. I'm recalling someone said somewhere that she has a pretty strong scum game. If you want to be in the coalition you have to be proactive and I'm just seeing a totally different approach from her.

This is gonna look like I just said this bc you gave me an opening, but I'm posting here before I go back and respond to stuff bc I've been thinking about this game and I feel like there's a sense of urgency that I find strange. Like, there's this push to solve by pg 10, it's scummy that I don't have a set of reads by pg 6 (by page 6!?), there's a request to have a set of coalition choices by Friday...I don't get it. The game opened less than 2 days ago. There's 14 days from the time I'm posting now before day ends. Two freaking weeks left! When I signed up for this game and saw there was a 16 day D1, I planned to take my time figuring things out. And I'm going to stick to that if I can.

One of the things I'll be considering is whether I think this rush is scum-driven or just overzealous town (or both). My gut reaction is to say yes. But it's probably not enough to accurately read someone, so it's just something I'll take into account along with all of the rest of the stuff that gets said.

[Merlyn]

But I think it is +town just for the brazenness of a seemingly relatively new player being like "nah i'm really not playing how scum would be playing in this setup lol" in this way.

I want to lean town on THS bc I don't agree with most of the case that Hero laid out. But I think it's dangerous to paint THS with the 'new scum would never do X' brush bc I just came off of two games where he fooled me and just about everyone else as the most towny scum I've seen in a while. I don't know if he's played somewhere else before and I haven't asked but he's very good.

I don't even feel like that's a play that "good" scum is likely to make. It's the kind of thing that probably a lot of good scum would avoid because it's practically likely to be scumread by a good swathe of people.

I don't even feel like that's a play that "good" scum is likely to make. It's the kind of thing that probably a lot of good scum would avoid because it's practically likely to be scumread by a good swathe of people.

Are you making the mistake of assuming how a player, especially one that you are not familiar with, would play under a certain alignment?

Especially when there is another player, Merlyn in this case, has first hand experience with THS as scum......and you are seemingly poo poo-ing their read?

I don't even feel like that's a play that "good" scum is likely to make. It's the kind of thing that probably a lot of good scum would avoid because it's practically likely to be scumread by a good swathe of people.

Are you making the mistake of assuming how a player, especially one that you are not familiar with, would play under a certain alignment?

Especially when there is another player, Merlyn in this case, has first hand experience with THS as scum......and you are seemingly poo poo-ing their read?

this is just a weird take. 1, mafia is a game that is fundamentally built on a pile of assumptions. 2, I don't need to defer to someone else's read just because they've played with the person before. And most importantly 3, no, that's not what I'm doing at all, I'm making a reasoned counterargument to Merlyn's reasoning; she said that THS is a good scum player so we shouldn't townread him too easily and I gave the counterargument that my reason for townreading him should still apply even if he's a good scum player. It's also kind of heinous in isolation to say i'm "poo poo-ing" Merlyn's read just because I'm disagreeing with it and she's played with him before. Like, heck, i'm not allowed to disagree with someone???

This is bullshit.

You are doing mental gymnastics to town read THS, Merlyn just said 'Hey, I have seen them in the wild, they don't fuck around as scum'.

And you said nope, you aren't listening to actual first hand meta, and like I said assigning how you would play to another person.

I don't even think you are scum, just doing what I see too often from town who doesn't observe enough.

hey Doc, real quick, are you white knighting me?

[Merlyn]

It feels overexplainy in the way of scum who feels the need to appear justified rather than town who actually has reasons behind what they're doing

good point - i felt hesitant to tr that post but didn't know why. this point is actually very subtly scummy.

hard leaning town on implo atp, slight scumread on drew.

I don't have any real reads yet, I'm not sure why. Even the folx I have some town leans on are so tentative I don't really know if they're townleans.

could you tell us your townleans even if they're weak?

Bella and Mala. Pure vibes.

[Merlyn]

We've still got time but let's get some organization to our approach. I'd like to challenge everyone, by Friday, to come up with 2-3 people you absolutely want in your coalition, and 2-3 people you don't.

this posts feels really off, but not even in a scummy way. it feels like THS has to have zero gamestate awarenessbto make this post when multiple other people have already expressed their preferred coalition and he hasn't.
i doubt this is scum indicative, but i am noting it bc it's weird and i would like to have people's thoughts on this, if they have any thoughts.

I think it's a rush and I don't like the rush. I'm keeping an eye on everyone who seems to be wanting to rush through D1 rn (but that also includes you lol)

[Merlyn]

actually like, idk how much exp you have with mala, i don't have that much, but she doesn't strike me as a sort of thinking 5 steps ahead scum player (no offense) that you're making her out to be there, do you think it's like, likely that scum-mala would've been thinking so much about something like that on page 2?

Hear me out.

Reading that post again by Dats, doesn't it read as he knows you are town?

Uhh...no?

[Merlyn]

Hero- I'm sure I saw you ask me how much exp I have being scum but I can't find the post. I'm pretty new and all my games (excluding some real life one night werewolf which does not help here in form mafia land) are here. I feel like I roll scum a lot actually, but I haven't gone back and counted how many town games to scum games.

[Merlyn]

i'm just going to disengage from the line with Drew. although maybe i won't completely since hero says they want to see how it develops lol but I feel like it's almost certainly one of those things that is practically not going to be actually useful for sorting compared to how much it'd bog down the thread. I think it's probably very likely that Drew and I just sort of parse arguments in incompatible ways.

I like that you said this, I feel like when I see someone stop a 1v1 they tend to be town, I don't think scum has a lot of incentive to stop a spat

[Merlyn]

it's scummy that I don't have a set of reads by pg 6 (by page 6!?),

I don't think this is a fair characterization. It's not that you "don't have a set of reads", it's that you hadn't given any at all, in conjunction with you saying that you'd already been townspewing which, no, does not mean "posting literally anything as town".

I do agree there isn't much of a real rush. But I feel like there's been lots of quite useful content so far. I don't really agree with THS's take that scum are necessarily proactive in this setup; yeah, they need to get in the coalition, and actually the point could have some truth to it if people are playing in such a way that the scum

feel

rushed. But I think it's entirely possible for scum to play under the radar, especially if they think their scumbuddy is going to get in to the coalition.

I was kind of going for humor there when I said bc I thought it was a question that deserved a flippant answer. Like, it's not a serious thing to ask a bunch of folks to townspew like it's something someone can come in on the next post and go, "oh! Got it, here's my townspewing".


I'm going to get really nitpicky on this idea that it's scummy that I hadn't given any reads. I posted as soon as I saw the game was open. When you posted 156, I had been playing in the game for 29 hours. I also slept and went to work twice in those 29 hours. So, was it really dubious that I hadn't formed or posted any reads yet? Am I really the first player you've met who decided to take more than 29 hours to figure out what they think? Or am I right to think it's odd that it's even being remarked upon?

[Merlyn]

I'm going to get really nitpicky on this idea that it's scummy that I hadn't given any reads. I posted as soon as I saw the game was open. When you posted 156, I had been playing in the game for 29 hours. I also slept and went to work twice in those 29 hours. So, was it really dubious that I hadn't formed or posted any reads yet? Am I really the first player you've met who decided to take more than 29 hours to figure out what they think? Or am I right to think it's odd that it's even being remarked upon?

i don't really like this, it feels like an oversimplification. i don't want to speak for implo here and obv he can correct me if i'm wrong, but his 156 made me realise that merlyn's posts are mostly like, fluffposts. like, it's obvious she was reading the game because she was responding to things about the game, so she did put some thought into it, but there was no Actually Alignment Comments in those posts. and scum is more likely to go into that mode of responding to things and asking questions, but not actually solving, because you know they can't solve.

so it's like, it's not the issue that she didn't have reads, hell my reads are probably utter ass currently, but that she wasn't really working towards getting them?

I have this memory of you pushing me as scum in a game I repped out of and I think you were a lot meaner than this, so I like this post for town.

I think you're just describing a playstyle difference, I could have come out of the game with reads that I didn't really have confidence in too, but I don't feel like I had to, I maintain it's fine to wait a couple of pages and days to figure things out, especially in a game with a long D1.

I definitely know how to fake a read as scum btw lol. If you someday catch me as scum in another game it won't be because I didn't know how to put any fake reads out there. And I ask questions to figure out how to solve.

[Merlyn]

But her not liking her coalition group is just bizarre. I don't know what to make of it tbh. Unless it is a bit of TMI, like she knows one of her buddies is in it.

well I don't particularly think anyone really cares about what I want the coalition to be so I don't particularly care about trying to force my opinions through.

I'd rather not, I have low expectations this coalition wins but I am ready to be surprised.

Why put through this coalition if you think it has a high chance of failing?

because I can always just be wrong

If you have low confidence, why not put yourself in it?

because i'll just get misyeeted when it fails

This comes off as over the top defeatism.

It is super defeatist, but in your experience is that AI for Ari?

[Merlyn]

@ari, if you had to pick a coalition to form right now, what would it be?

maybe me you implo hero and bella

very much a 6am not very awake thought

Mala implo & bella

?

well datisi doesn't townread mala so he doesn't want her in the coalition

I don't townread you or datisi but if datisi is town then he's probly right about you being town

and if the coalition fails I'll know who I want to vote

I do agree that numbers wise it just makes sense to put yourself forward for the coalition bc if you know you're town then you can only be wrong about 4 spots rather than 5. The only person who can really relax and not need to advocate for themselves here is a wolf who is pushing a partner in there. There's no point in being worried that it will make you a target later if the coalition fails, you're getting heat now anyway.

[Merlyn]

I think Ari is scum.

Can you expand on this read for me?

[Merlyn]

Ari- don't love the latest posts, already explained why
Bella- vibing a lil town to me
Datisi- leaning town because I remember him being cutthroat as scum, I also kind of like he went against the sudden wave of people tr'ing me bc as scum it would be easier to just go along with it and not make waves.
Drew- I just kind of want Drew to be town bc it's so rare we don't instantly scumread each other. My single experience with Drew as scum was as a partner and I do think he sheeps more as scum.  Maybe I'll just go with it and hope I'm not in the Whiskey Pocket.
Hero- oh idk. I have to think about it. 
Implo- I think they're probably town, I like their posts more than I dislike
mala- a bitty townvibe
THS- so far this the play is not out of his scumrange at all, time will tell ig

HEAL: Merlyn, Datisi, Drew, Implo gotta think more on how to pick a fifth

[Merlyn]

I do agree that numbers wise it just makes sense to put yourself forward for the coalition bc if you know you're town then you can only be wrong about 4 spots rather than 5. The only person who can really relax and not need to advocate for themselves here is a wolf who is pushing a partner in there. There's no point in being worried that it will make you a target later if the coalition fails, you're getting heat now anyway.

i have two completed games of coalition;

viewtopic.php?t=91245
viewtopic.php?t=89428

I am town in both

I suggested not being in coalition in both

I ended up in the coalition in both

I personally do not enjoy being in the coalition unless I'm absolutely certain my coalition is winning.

I am nowhere near that level of certainty at present and might never be.

Saying that I am mafia for not wanting to be in the coalition because all townies would want to be in the coalition and ascribing the only possible reason for someone not wanting to be in the coalition as "they are mafia who are pushing their partner in instead" is reductionist and absurd.

Good think I didn't say that the was the only possible reason huh? I was pointing out that there's a good reason why folx would suspect you for not putting yourself in. You seemed to be saying the main reason you didn't is bc you'd get heat if it failed, and I was pointing out that you're already getting heat. This post kind of feels like an overreaction.

I appreciate the links, I'll read them if I have time

[Merlyn]

This post kind of feels like an overreaction.

it feels like you've spent more time shading me and very little time trying to understand my perspective

I've only ever interacted with you once before this and it was to agree with you on something

[Merlyn]

I think the

implication in 274 is that the only reason I have for not advocating for myself is that I am a wolf who is trying to push my partner into the coalition.

when I explain I do this in previous runs of the game as town and say this is not a reasonable conjecture -

you claim you didn't really even say it

.

you just feel slimy here to me.

I don't want to get hung up here on semantics, but the implication isn't that it's the ONLY reason. I agree that town could do it. I wanted to see if you had considered this one, particular reason that it might be good to be in the coalition. I wanted to hear your response once I'd shared it.

I was saying that I didn't say it was the ONLY reason, as a response to this particular thing you said:

and ascribing the only possible reason for someone not wanting to be in the coalition as "they are mafia who are pushing their partner in instead" is reductionist and absurd.

Because I found what you said here to be extreme and untrue.

You can throw insults if you want- and I do find being called slimy to be an insult and really ought to be against the rules- but it's just a game and I'm just trying to sort you because that's what I'm supposed to do in the game. There's no reason to get this mad over a scumread.

[Merlyn]

I'm just gonna stop responding on this topic to you, I don't think we can see eye to eye on it

[Merlyn]

I do agree that numbers wise it just makes sense to put yourself forward for the coalition bc if you know you're town then you can only be wrong about 4 spots rather than 5. The only person who can really relax and not need to advocate for themselves here is a wolf who is pushing a partner in there. There's no point in being worried that it will make you a target later if the coalition fails, you're getting heat now anyway.

i have two completed games of coalition;

viewtopic.php?t=91245
viewtopic.php?t=89428

I am town in both

I suggested not being in coalition in both

I ended up in the coalition in both

I personally do not enjoy being in the coalition unless I'm absolutely certain my coalition is winning.

I am nowhere near that level of certainty at present and might never be.

Saying that I am mafia for not wanting to be in the coalition because all townies would want to be in the coalition and ascribing the only possible reason for someone not wanting to be in the coalition as "they are mafia who are pushing their partner in instead" is reductionist and absurd.

Good think I didn't say that the was the only possible reason huh? I was pointing out that there's a good reason why folx would suspect you for not putting yourself in. You seemed to be saying the main reason you didn't is bc you'd get heat if it failed, and I was pointing out that you're already getting heat. This post kind of feels like an overreaction.

I appreciate the links, I'll read them if I have time

This is the post Ari is referring to.

[Merlyn]

I know, I just feel like this convo happening on two levels isn't helping

no kidding. Can someone share the game you three are talking about please?

[Merlyn]

you know what? i am done. i am done with this meta discussion, i am done with discussing my tr of datisi, and i am done with this silly 1v1 with ari. it's not fun and it's not helping town win.

so here's what we're going to do instead. i am going to propose a coalition, and ari - please sheep it eliminate me if it fails. you have my solemn promise i won't push you (but i will be looking for scum). here's my coalition:
HEAL: ari, datisi, hero, implo, bella

i'd rather tell ari "i told you" in the postgame after we won than continue this stupid, unfun argument. or i guess if she's scum i can tell her "gg wp you tricked us all". but i don't think she's scum.

the above coalition is actually final*.

*barring extreme shenanigans like datisi claiming scum or some crazy, game changing scumslip.

I would support you or ari, but not both. Sub out drew or myself for yourself or for ari and I will go along with this.

[Merlyn]

yuck. i think ari is scum.

HEAL: Bellaphant

there, there's my coalition.

THS, what about the conversation that just went on all day led you this way? Also, do you think Hero is town then or are they not correlated?

[Merlyn]

Oops

HEAL: Doctor Drew

Same question for Drew actually

[Merlyn]

oh, sorry, this one

THS, what about the conversation that just went on all day led you this way? Also, do you think Hero is town then or are they not correlated?

[Merlyn]

i also think we should agree on a coalition quickly.

Why?

[Merlyn]

I guess I should clarify, I'm asking if the same reason as Bella?

[Merlyn]

you know what? i am done. i am done with this meta discussion, i am done with discussing my tr of datisi, and i am done with this silly 1v1 with ari. it's not fun and it's not helping town win.

so here's what we're going to do instead. i am going to propose a coalition, and ari - please sheep it eliminate me if it fails. you have my solemn promise i won't push you (but i will be looking for scum). here's my coalition:
HEAL: ari, datisi, hero, implo, bella

i'd rather tell ari "i told you" in the postgame after we won than continue this stupid, unfun argument. or i guess if she's scum i can tell her "gg wp you tricked us all". but i don't think she's scum.

the above coalition is actually final*.

*barring extreme shenanigans like datisi claiming scum or some crazy, game changing scumslip.

I would support you or ari, but not both. Sub out drew or myself for yourself or for ari and I will go along with this.

why do you tr drew

Meta mostly. I don't feel like scum Drew gets annoyed or irritated like he did with implo here. I could be wrong but I feel worse about Hero and Ari

[Merlyn]

plus merlyns response to ari could easily be her as scum trying to insert herself into a coal so the game isn't lost for her. I think I agree it's time to fill the coal and if the game doesn't end then go from there

Yeah, and your response here could be you setting up suspicion on me for a future lim. We can go down the wifom rabbit hole for a while

[Merlyn]

Can we agree that Merlyn and THS are not buddies?

Conversely is this theater?

I am going back and forth tbh.

i think it might be theater

especially cause earlier THS wanted me to put merlyn in the coalition instead of ari but didn't offer himself

This is such a weird convo for two folx who claim to tr me to have

[Merlyn]

merlyn i don't think you explained the "i would support you or ari but not both" thing yet, can you please explain that?

I didn't think there was anything to explain- I don't tr either of you so I'd rather not take two chances over one

[Merlyn]

I would support you or ari, but not both. Sub out drew or myself for yourself or for ari and I will go along with this.

This is a sentiment that I don't understand. Why do you want to avoid a specific combination of two people in the coalition? Isn't that... not how a coalition works? Are you just trying to compromise? Doesn't asking for a compromise not make any sense if one of the people you distrust is the one making the decision of who to sub out for who?

---

The way hero is playing the game right now is very town and also annoying. I kind of hate the attitude of "well if this is wrong then woe is me, i'll just exit stage left". No, if this coalition goes through and is wrong then you don't get to magically shirk responsibility if you're town, you have to play the rest of the game.

I don't feel particularly confident in this coalition. I guess I feel also annoyed at the This Coalition Is Unilaterally Final thing. I like THS (i'll talk about the scum case on him in a bit but it seems like hero is particularly intransigent on him). I feel like Malakittens feels town from what posting she has and is a viable member of the coalition if she winds up showing up to the game more, which I'd theoretically like to give her a chance to do even if she doesn't get added to the coalition because, well, I don't feel as gung-ho as Hero does.

I don't really understand why Ari is just going along with a coalition that it seems like she thinks has decent odds of failing (given that she has expressed a townread on Hero but not on Datisi) after talking about how she's annoyed that she always gets put on failing coalitions as town.

I also don't really buy Hero's datisi-town case, it just reminds me of reasons I have incorrectly townread Datisi in the distant past. I do lean town on Bella but not with high confidence and I like her reason for townreading Datisi somewhat more but it is also pretty intangible because I don't think I've ever really seen things from Datisi-scum that made me want to actively scumread him in early days in past games like she describes, though I definitely believe that someone could.

I don't really understand your questions towards me. I'm offering a compromise bc if Hero accepts then there are more folks in the coalition that I tr. If THAT's not 'how a coalition works' then I don't know how a coalition works. I'd be the one 'making the decision who to sub out for who' bc I'm the one making the suggestion. I don't know if that phrasing makes any sense either way, though, bc I don't have the power to 'make the decision' for the coalition and neither does Hero. Even if he and I end up agreeing it doesn't mean three others will too. Re: distrust- his very acceptance or denial of the offer will also affect my read on him if this coalition fails.

I'm also not really understanding what you mean by 'this coalition is unilaterally final'. I don't think it's final, that's why I'm trying to suggest other options. If you don't agree with it, propose a different coalition?

[Merlyn]

lso, i agree with you that merlyn's perspective of either me or ari doesn't make sense because that's not how coalition works. i think merlyn is scummy for that.

I'm about to throw my hands up at this game and be done

[Merlyn]

I didn't think there was anything to explain- I don't tr either of you so I'd rather not take two chances over one

that makes no sense

why would you support someone you don't tr?

So, you genuinely believe that when the final coalition is made, it will be of all your townreads only, and four other people will have supported it, and you will not have to compromise on anything? Because I've been thinking there's no way that's going to happen and we will need to negotiate with each other

[Merlyn]

Can we agree that Merlyn and THS are not buddies?

Conversely is this theater?

I am going back and forth tbh.

i think it might be theater

especially cause earlier THS wanted me to put merlyn in the coalition instead of ari but didn't offer himself

This is such a weird convo for two folx who claim to tr me to have

Well one of these folx has just said they are not sure about townMerlyn.

And there is something going on between you two.

This is such a weird convo for two folx who claim to tr me to have

i sort off dropped the tr on you several pages ago

Cool, I've done nothing differently so that's interesting

[Merlyn]

I don't know who is scum. Pass the chocolate

[Merlyn]

@Hero- if your coalition goes through and then fails, who will you be voting for?

[Merlyn]

I don't know who is scum. Pass the chocolate

Ma'am, this is a gift basket for std, not you.

std is a generous soul, he'll share

[Merlyn]

VOTE: Mala

Days of no activity, then a sudden burst of activity leading to the hammer? I think your buddy was urging you to get in there behind the scenes

[Merlyn]

we should vote out someone in the coalition first - voting outside of coalition is p bad

That's probably right

VOTE: std

[Merlyn]

VOTE: Mala

Days of no activity, then a sudden burst of activity leading to the hammer? I think your buddy was urging you to get in there behind the scenes

we should vote out someone in the coalition first - voting outside of coalition is p bad

Can we stash a Merlyn vote for later?

Yes we can, whenever you want

[Merlyn]

I guess I feel like I can get a better read on STD given more time so I'm not really in a rush to vote him yet.

I feel good things about your slot which historically means I'm being snowed by you since I''m not scumreading you

I feel like I can't really touch hero atp since everyone thinks he's town and maybe it's just me being the idiot who can't see it.

I dunno I feel worse about bella than before.

I'm not sold on Hero being town

[Merlyn]

hi, i am back.

the fact that this is friday does do wonders for my wim.

I guess I feel like I can get a better read on STD given more time so I'm not really in a rush to vote him yet.

I feel good things about your slot which historically means I'm being snowed by you since I''m not scumreading you

I feel like I can't really touch hero atp since everyone thinks he's town and maybe it's just me being the idiot who can't see it.

I dunno I feel worse about bella than before.

I'm not sold on Hero being town

i'm sold on you not being town though.

This is a weird post.

okay would you think i'm crazy if i suggested voting merlyn instead of one of the coalition members? probably yes. i mean i think i'm crazy right now because if i were sane then how come my coalition failed.

Why post this? Either scumread me, build a case, and vote me, or not. This is just useless shade.

VOTE: Mala

Days of no activity, then a sudden burst of activity leading to the hammer? I think your buddy was urging you to get in there behind the scenes

we should vote out someone in the coalition first - voting outside of coalition is p bad

Can we stash a Merlyn vote for later?

ok i think i'm really hapoy with reading drew as town for now.

Does it ususally work out for you finding town by choosing people who agree with your reads?

[Merlyn]

The most annoying thing about this is that I'm being set up for the next lim should I be wrong about std (or maybe even if I'm right, I don't know) and I really shouldn't be at the top of anyone's list. I'm one of the people trying to actually play this game, even though getting engagement has been like wringing blood from a stone. How are you going to even discuss limming me before you look into two people who voted for the coalition without even being in it? How does that not even warrant a cursory post exploring what you think about them?

[Merlyn]

This is a weird post.

why?

Because your read on me doesn't affect my read on you. Let me put it to you this way: what information were you trying to share with your post?

[Merlyn]

Does it ususally work out for you finding town by choosing people who agree with your reads?

um, i'd say that it works better than random.
like it's not a perfect method, but then i don't know of any perfect method of finding town.

also i'd been previously thinking that you and drew were svt and this post by him strengthened this feeling and made him look townier in comparison to you.

It does? Genuine question. What would, observing that you do that, stop scum from imitating it and pretending to agree with you? It's fine if this a post game question, I'm not really sure it helps me sort you.

[Merlyn]

that i don't really care about your read on me

You're not meant to, really. I was talking to someone else about you. That's what made it weird to me. It was like you felt you had to pop in and say 'don't listen to her, Ari!' and that kind of panic is something I associate with scum.

[Merlyn]

It does? Genuine question. What would, observing that you do that, stop scum from imitating it and pretending to agree with you? It's fine if this a post game question, I'm not really sure it helps me sort you.

two things:
the first thing is, i normally don't care only about what people

state

their reads to be, but also the reasoning behind it. so if someone copies all/most of my reads it looks obvious and i scumread that.
the second thing is, here it didn't feel like drew was catering to me because i had not recently expressed a desire to vote you when drew said that. if he had said that

after

i said i want to vote you, i might've even scumread him for it, but he said it before i said that, so it's clearly not imitation.

Okay, I get that. Just to be clear I was not thinking Drew was doing that, I still pretty much mostly tr Drew .

[Merlyn]

and like i just don't get std making a super obvious hammer post and then saying he didn't realize it was a hammer

i can't rationalize it.

it makes zero sense.

i would actually tr std if he said the hammer was intentional and that he was 100% sure it would win the game, but this retraction is

really

weird.

I agree with this post. No I'm not trying to pocket you, I think that would be pretty silly of me at this point. I went back and looked at the hammer and it does read like someone hammering on purpose.

[Merlyn]

vc. sorry for not getting a pagetop I will try harder next time

and I will try harder to stop you

[Merlyn]

I just like implo, I don't want to vote there. I get why Drew's voting there but that doesn't mean I think he's right about it. I scumread the other two slots to varying degrees so that makes me uneasy about this wagon. I'm actually pretty happy with my current vote

[Merlyn]

i don't think its as easy as rh9/std but I am willing to suspend my pessimism to trust in implosion at least one time

Ari, what makes you feel this way, despite implosion saying he'd want you to be the next to go if he bites it?

[Merlyn]

Not gonna be posting much till nighttime for me all weekend, just fyi

[Merlyn]

It's hard to come in and post meaningfully when we are basically at an impasse. Here's what I'm currently thinking: everyone who is one either the std or implo wagon has given their reason for doing so, and recently.

THS, you have had a vote on Hero since Sept 26. That was during D1, you haven't changed it since then. Mala, you have had a vote on Ari since Sept 28th- again, a vote you placed in D1. I think that you both need to either a) make a good case for why four other folks should leave thier current wagon for yours or b) stop sitting on your votes and get on either the implo or std wagon.

(btw, yes I do find it sussy to realize how long you've both been sitting on those votes. I get that the game has been moving slowly but c'mon)

[Merlyn]

It's hard to come in and post meaningfully when we are basically at an impasse. Here's what I'm currently thinking: everyone who is one either the std or implo wagon has given their reason for doing so, and recently.

THS, you have had a vote on Hero since Sept 26. That was during D1, you haven't changed it since then. Mala, you have had a vote on Ari since Sept 28th- again, a vote you placed in D1. I think that you both need to either a) make a good case for why four other folks should leave thier current wagon for yours or b) stop sitting on your votes and get on either the implo or std wagon.

(btw, yes I do find it sussy to realize how long you've both been sitting on those votes. I get that the game has been moving slowly but c'mon)

I replaced Mala like a while ago and I'm on implo?

I'm sorry! I mean Bella

[Merlyn]

ok since i'm here all by myself i might as well just say my thoughts

i kinda feel weirded out that nobody is pushing me right now, everyone except bella (which i think is leaning std) and THS (which idk why he's still voting me but hasn't actually pushed me) is voting either implo or std. now i do think std is scum so it makes sense for him to be voted, but i just don't get the votes on implo???? like if i were drew or std i think i would be voting either hero or ari, you know? our previous 1v1 /should/ make both of us look kinda suspect.

the thing is, i see voting hero/ari as both the scum play (easy misfade) and the town play (we objectively look worse after the events leading up to the coalition and then the coalition that failed). so like not voting us doesn't make sense for me for either alignment (from std's viewpoint, mind you - i obviously wouldn't vote myself, nor do i wanna vote ari). can someone who is objective (i.e not me or ari, and also isn't std) explain to me why i'm wrong about this?

I guess my question would be (in the nicest way possible, bc I do like you as a player), does this matter to the game? If you're wondering why neither scum nor town has taken an action, do we learn anything from trying to answer it? It sounds like since neither side is doing it, we won't be able to find town or scum through discussing it.

My answer to this fwiw is that I think that either of you are the easy targets you're thinking of.

[Merlyn]

I guess my question would be (in the nicest way possible, bc I do like you as a player), does this matter to the game?

it depends. if someone can show me a scum!std motivation for voting implo over me, it would make std more likely scum. if there's a town!std motivation voting implo over me, then std might be town.
but in general, i think it helps to try and figure out what you /don't/ understand about the game. if you understand everything, then the game is basically solved, right? so if it's not solved then there must be something you don't understand. so the fact that there's something you don't understand could point to the fact that you are not on the right track (or you could be on the right track, but you'd only understand it after figuring the thing out).

for example, in a recently completed game, there was a leading wagon which had very good reasons to be scum. however, i didn't understand why they kept tunneling an obvtown player - this just didn't make sense to me as a scum action. and when i thought of this i concluded that the must be just very frustrated town (which they were). not that it mattered in the end because they got hammered anyway :p

also, i'll take that as a compliment

My answer to this fwiw is that I think that either of you are the easy targets you're thinking of.

i'm not sure what you mean? are you saying implo is as easy a misfade target as myself?

I butchered what I was trying to say there. I meant that I don't think either of you are the easy targets. You were really confident and a driver of that coalition, you'd have to be really bold scum to do that. Ive pondered whether you are in fact, but I'm pretty much accepting at this point that you're town. I think it would be hard to get a wagon on you. And Ari said she's been pushed into coalitions and then mislimed before, I think that makes her a less obvious push than you're thinking.

[Merlyn]

i dunno. i was wrong about someone and i think implosion looks like the most likely candidate

What makes them the most likely vs others?

[Merlyn]

ari, why?

because it feels like there's too many people twiddling their thumbs on the sidelines and their votes are on irrelevant people[THS,Bella] and that's sometimes a sign that scum are fine with the current choices/dichotomy in the game and kind of just hoping someone gets offed.

and I reread some of datisi's early posting and didn't feel great about thinking he's mafia.

STD is still bleh but I don't feel great about just mailing it in

Your thinking is very similar to my own, but where are you ending up? If you're saying that we should be wary of the current choices, you mean std and implo I assume. So who are you wanting to vote for instead?

[Merlyn]

aw man, she got the pagetop anyway

[Merlyn]

Am I supposed to explain to the person I think could be scum why I think they're scum?

Well, yeah, bc it helps the rest of the group sort you

[Merlyn]

Prodding Doctor Drew.

Ahhh sorry.

Will read up more later tonight, but these last few posts from THS are really pinging my gut that they am imo are buddies.

See you all soon

Drew, come back! I would like to hear your thoughts on the current gamestate

[Merlyn]

@merlyn how likely do you think is a std/ari solve?

depends a bit on what happens next- if there's an std flip and they go red, Ari leaving the wagon right before it could gain critical mass will be sus to me. If they flip green she drops lower on my list.

[Merlyn]

i have one thing i understood from page 30

THS is not scum here

what on pg 30 makes you feel that way?

[Merlyn]

I don't have anything else to say right now, I'm fine with this flip, even if I'm wrong so what. I'm not going to really learn anything new until the next day at this point.

[Merlyn]

Drew, come back! I would like to hear your thoughts on the current gamestate

agreed

I'm here!

I think at this point I would be fine with an std flip, still not sure if they are scum but I think it would really help the game state to have a flip.

Still prefer imp though.

But what do you think about the rest of us? Hero, myself, Ari, Bella, we've all been playing. What is your progression on us?

[Merlyn]

Coz we are running out of reasons the coalition failed if it's not std.

I'm obv town, hero would always say hero is town, hero strong trs implo (I think? I do), so it's almost poe by that point? Weird q

yes + i was sring ari at sone point in the past and then we 1v1'd and both decided the other was town. though tbh her tr on me could be opportunistic since it happened right after i included her in the coalition.

honestly i'm tempted to just vote her first and std on day 2 if she's green, because while scum!std is good at looking townie, i don't think he would be able to manipulate the gamestate on d2 to get out of being limmed like scum!ari can (and she can, i believe. she's pretty good at playing scum even though she denies it.

also i think RH9 is scum 90% of the time because that "duck it" from mala is literally one most anti-town play that happened this game, except for me declaring my coalition unilaterally final (sorry about that).

also i just realized i'm logged in from wrong account but it's pretty clear that this hero, yes?

UNVOTE:

We have 24 and a 1/2 hours left from when I'm posting this, so I'm trying to figure out where you're going with this. It's really late in the day to get a wagon going on someone who I (don't think?) has any votes? If you're planning to make a case to convince four other people to vote Ari with you, you kind of need to...you know, get on that.

I'm hesitant to vote Ari bc she held up the STD wagon at a critical juncture. If he's town and she's scum, why would she do that? If they're both scum, awesome, I'll stick with my STD vote.

[Merlyn]

UNVOTE:

also am i a dum dum for only now realizing i wasn't even voting?

LOL! I thought you were doing it for emphasis- like, you felt so strongly you needed to unvote again!

If he's town and she's scum, why would she do that?

To get townread after he flips green? idk

do you want me to just hammer?

I'll have to think about whether I think that's likely or not, but okay. I could see WIFOMing into oblivion following that logic though

I want you to vote for the person you think is most likely to be scum, and if that person is different than the one with the leading wagon entering the last 24 hours I want you to try and convince me and others to switch.

[Merlyn]

I'm not sure from these latest posts, RH9, are you thinking STD is scum?

[Merlyn]

I'm really surprised Hero was not the NK last night. I think they were way more townread than THS. I would really not want Hero to make it to Elo.

Drew, what makes you clear Ari here? I think she got off the std wagon at a really critical time, and didn't offer up an alternative.

For me it's somewhere in RH, Ari, and Hero.

[Merlyn]

that's me, Ol Bad New Merlyn

[Merlyn]

tbh i would've expected implosion to get nightkilled

the other wagon? That take surprises me, why?

[Merlyn]

Who do you think is scum here, Ari?

[Merlyn]

I gotta go back and look at Bella again. I liked her in D1 but I do remember not liking her end of coalition day actions

[Merlyn]

I'm inclined to say that Hero's incredibly aggressive waffle on STD comes from scum really really rarely. It's one thing to like, distance noncommittally so that you don't have to bus if there's an alternative. But hero actively committed and uncommited like 3 separate times from wanting to lim STD. That seems like a very scary thing to do as scum partnered to STD who doesn't know the day is going to go on that long, and like, if they wanted not to bus they could have easily justified voting me over STD at any point and if they wanted to distance without really intending to bus then idk i feel like they wouldn't have like 3 separate posts where they say "okay now for realsies i'm voting std" and if they wanted to bus then they could have just bussed. It feels like what they did is a weird amalgamation of all of these that I think there are very few scum players who would consciously decide to play the day that way.

This makes a ton of sense and I agree with it. The thing that stresses me out about it is why isn't Hero dead?

[Merlyn]

RH9, so who's scum?

[Merlyn]

I don't think it's Hero. All of this stuff, including yesterdays vote waffling, would have to be a performance. If I'm throwing away the game here I'll congratulate him at the end and also be slightly scared of him.

[Merlyn]

i think at this moment in time (like page 14) my ideal coalition would probably be dats/hero/implo/bella/ari but i am like. doubtful that's ever going to get voted in. and in the event it fails, it feels like it would be an utter shitshow.

for those who've played with scum!Datisi before- would he put his partner in here?

[Merlyn]

So went over the whole end of coaltion day again. Here's my thought process:

so just for emphasis
HEAL: ari/bella/dragons/hero/implo
pls sheep me so we can get somewhere before deadline.

This was the coalition. Three votes on it, Hero, Ari, THS.

Hero, how would you feel about replacing std or maybe bella with THS? I feel like the logic you gave is indicative of THS is town but is (as i'd said previously) strongly indicative that THS should be in the coalition because if it's already succeeding then adding him almost never hurts it

Then, implo suggests getting rid of someone we now know was scum, and subbing in someone we now know was town. Hero doesn't immeadiately strike it down:

i can probbably iso THS in a bit and maybe it's a good idea.

could you tell me in concrete terms how much better would you prefer THS over std/bella, which one of them, and why?

The next thing that happens is mala comes in and votes the coaltion

uck it

HEAL: ari/bella/dragons/hero/implo

and std rushes in to hammer.

My take is that mala is scum, and she and std had to rush to get in there bc there was only one scum on the coaltion (std) and if they had been replaced it would be game over for them. VOTE: rh9[/rh9].

[Merlyn]

I don't think it's Hero. All of this stuff, including yesterdays vote waffling, would have to be a performance. If I'm throwing away the game here I'll congratulate him at the end and also be slightly scared of him.

I am unwilling to lose to hero!mafia but if everyone else wants to I won't care

What do you think of my case on Rh9

[Merlyn]

But let's just lim RH, then if they do flip town we can discuss who should be next instead of just nuking Bella or Ari right away(or maybe you lol).

Yup yup yup

[Merlyn]

I am not sure how many times I have to tell you that I have seen him fake emotional reactions to game events as mafia for you to understand it is not clearing and his emotional reactions do not even make sense

We'll, this would mean something to me if I knew who you were talking about and could go check for myself but for some reason we have an alt player who has only revealed himself to half the group

[Merlyn]

If you really want Hero today, we can do him.
Though, I agree with Merlyn that his EoD would've been performative as scum.

This is bad

so your theory is that I'm mafia and I decided instead of letting you push RH9 to death today and then Drew to death tommorrow I started to jump up and down and say you're mafia

ok sure why would I do that

Ugh, posts like this do make me want to tr Ari.

I read the fight, I got nothing. I think the safest thing to do is Titus, and then re-think if it isn't. But actually this game might be just on easy mode.

Let's give Titus 24 hours and then yeah, intent to hammer

Sounds good to me

[Merlyn]

most of these pages make me feel nothing except that i feel bad for not hammering last night if titus is indeed scum

[Merlyn]

bloop

[Merlyn]

just stopping Ausuka from taking

[Merlyn]

[Merlyn]

Like I am 85% sure it's Hero.

Would you agree to limming you today and if you're town limming hero next then?

[Merlyn]

I kid cause I love

[Merlyn]

Like I am 85% sure it's Hero.

Would you agree to limming you today and if you're town limming hero next then?

I don't agree to being limmed. You guys already apparently decided to ignore whatever I'd do.

I'm settled on your slot, yes. But it feels like quite a few people are not ignoring what you'll do, as a hammer has been held for over a day now and 3 separate people have asked you to play.

[Merlyn]

Both rep ina have made really strange decisions for town straight off the bat. I'm over this, let's hammer and be done?

Yeah, I think so

[Merlyn]

Man, I have no idea who is scum. Not even a little bit

[Merlyn]

specifically with respect to the hero read - I just feel like he was so uncomfortable with the amount of pressure I applied to him yesterday that if he had a nightkill he would just use it on me instead of doctor drew?

So, I'm paranoid about this in the opposite way. You don't think it would a big red flag for the number one person who was anti-Hero to go down and pretty much seal his doom?

[Merlyn]

what's a bop shot?

[Merlyn]

You know what, I'd be in. I'm out of ideas on how to figure this out

[Merlyn]

Actually, you know what? Implo, would you be willing to do a bop or reverse bop?

[Merlyn]

i feel like this is a weird suggestion to make (from ari) right after i talked about my strong townread on her and why i'm not sure why she'd shoot drew. Like, wouldn't you rather just... not be limmed and try to make people listen to you?

Actually, you know what? Implo, would you be willing to do a bop or reverse bop?

I literally just said I don't feel good about who's scum right now so no, I'm not really interested in taking a 1/4 shot at winning when we can get a strictly better EV shot by playing normally. The only reason to do a "BoP shot" is if we're convinced someone is scum and we trust their judgment very strongly in the case that they're town. I don't trust my judgment in this game to that extent, and if you think I'm scum, I'd much rather just be limmed normally today than declare who I demand will be limmed tomorrow first, because that means we get 0 information from the nightkill. And evidently whoever is scum is making weird nightkills.

Of course I'd rather just not be limmed at all, and then maybe not eat a nightkill again for whatever reason. Are you thinking that I'm scum, Merlyn? If not, why do you want me to do a bop or reverse bop?

I'm trying to reevaluate everyone. I mostly wanted to see what you'd say

[Merlyn]

I am pretty much ruling Ari out as scum and hopefully that won't be a big mistake. What if we'd taken her up on the reverse BoP idea?

I could get behind an implo lim. It's so weird he's alive. He didn't want to do the BoP idea. Drew was scumreading him.

[Merlyn]

Uggghhh I dunno I guess I need to read the vote sequence on STD again. Couldn't he have gotten off the wagon at some point?

[Merlyn]

Okay. I'm going to stick with my gut reads on Ari and Hero, that makes PoE for me Bella or Implo. So that's where I'm voting today.

[Merlyn]

ARGHHHHH Every time you come back and post I start tr'ing you again

[Merlyn]

Ari, who are you leaning towards?

[Merlyn]

In fact, I'd love to hear Bella and Hero too. Who are you leaning towards? Do you have any hard town reads? Let's get some content on the board.

[Merlyn]

merlyn is and has always been somewhat limmable but never the most limworthy person.

that's me, the Once and Future Lim

[Merlyn]

Is there enough people that people do agree on to have not hero, Ari or mala in the coalition?

bella why are you sring me all of a sudden?

@hero, I'm not really, I'm talking about one we could agree on? I dunno, I still like dats' suggestion

i just read this again and i'm actually struggling to understand that thought process as town.

were you trying to get a town coalition or were you merely trying to get a coalition people could agree on? because i feel excluding the three you wanted to exclude is definitely a way to get a compromise coaltion "people can agree on" with zero success chances. idk if it's just me.

also the "still like dats' suggestion" feels a bit like a slip, because he only suggested it after i asked you why you wanted a coalition without me. it's like the littlest slip ever, but right now everyone is so townie i have to look under the rug to find anything scummy.

would like the rest of you to also check that and make sure i'm not hallucinating.

It's thin, but then again you acknowledge that. It is true that we now know that it wouldn't matter if hero, ari, or mala weren't in the coalition as long as Datisi/STD stayed in.

[Merlyn]

The without you bit is interestibg but I feel I've covered it again: I don't 100% trust you..you feel at times like you are narrative crafting, but I can't tell if that's just personality, or scummy. I thought you were originally Alisae, because you remind me a lot of them in team mafia, where they had the same vibe. I dunno if the alt thing is throwing my subconscious more than I think.

I do agree that everyone looks town to a fair degree. What makes mer town to you? They are the only person who's thought process I've not been like 'yeah sure ' on, but they haven't been overtly scummy

I feel like every time you talk about me, Bella, it's about me to someone else and not at me. I've heard you state doubt towards me multiple times in this game, so why aren't you engaging with me and attempting to sort me through that engagement?

[Merlyn]

VOTE: Hero at Heart I've gone back and forth on this a lot but 1143 solidified something for me. If Hero is right that I'm doomed then I don't really want Hero in the last day. If he's town he's a real wild card- sorry, Hero!- and if he's scum he's setting up an end of day where he can vote against me bc of his intense confidence I should have gone down, and he's also indicated a preference for Bella to live who has expressed a lot of doubt against me.

[Merlyn]

merlyn i said i won't vote you even if you live

i get why you don't believe that, but think of the following:

i promised ari not to lim her if coalition failed, and i didn't do that. so am a man of my word


anyway you can lim me, it might even be optimal so i don't get mislimmed last day, but i will be very sad and it will be a miselim

LOL but we're playing a game where some of us are randomly sorted into a role where we cannot be a person of their word. Like that's the whole game

[Merlyn]

(i will have u kno that this is mostly lighthearted, i don't actually expect you to be convinced. though i do expect you to realize i'm town considering i haven't acted in a very survivalistic manner and am not even pushing any of you/implo/ari)

But how does that help us win if you're town? That's why Im saying I'm accepting the chance that you're a mislim here. If you end up in the endgame I'm not confident you find the scum

[Merlyn]

So who are you voting for???? Who do you think is the scum????

[Merlyn]

rush through the day phase...? Hero, there's one day left

[Merlyn]

all right, UNVOTE: Hero for now

Maybe the fact the neither Bella nor Implo hammered means its just Ari after all

[Merlyn]

Yeah, I'm thinking there's no rush to put the hammer down on you, I don't know why if you're town and Bella or Implo is scum that they don't come in and end it. Cautiousness tends to be more towny. The other option is that you really are scum

[Merlyn]

Yeah, I'm thinking there's no rush to put the hammer down on you, I don't know why if you're town and Bella or Implo is scum that they don't come in and end it. Cautiousness tends to be more towny. The other option is that you really are scum

Worth noting Bella hasn't posted since the E-1 happened. Honestly I also still want her on the table for today, I feel like I'd have a hard time not voting her in f3. I really don't think Ari is the play today. I feel like I really like the reasons I have to townread her. Like fuck, Hero gave a great reason to townread her in his post against me seven minutes before voting her >_>

That's a good point, I guess I was just thinking Bella as scum would check in more after the first vote and be ready to go. She is really hard to read on more than vibes, I haven't been able to get her to engage with me fully.

[Merlyn]

merlyn made a good point so i re-looked at the possibility of ari!scum, one which i had earlier dismissed, and found that it is possible.

I guess the main thing is that this took you like 3-6 minutes to re-evaluate. I get that if you're town you're just not confident in yourself but it really is a staggering amount of reads volatility.

Friendly reminder that it is like 17 hours to deadline. I'm flying out tomorrow morning and am not sure how online I will be in general during the day. I think I should be chilling at the airport a bit after I land so should at least have that chance. I still want to hear more from bella.

Are you going to vote now in case you can't? Bella doesn't have to answer this prod until after the deadline expires.

[Merlyn]

VOTE: Hero

[Merlyn]

Look, I don't know if you're scum. I think there's a chance you are or I wouldn't be voting for you. But- and here's that honesty you prize, okay? I'm also voting you because if you get to the end game as town you are not, by your own admission, going to attempt to solve the game. Like, the whole point of the game is to try and find scum and you will not be doing that. I think by your words here (again, assuming you're town) that you think not solving is...noble, or something? The way you're saying "I'm being more honest than most people by saying I don't know"....okay, but none of us except scum know. At some point you have to move past the fear of being wrong and just play the game.

[Merlyn]

i actually have no words

do you think i'm not trying to solve???

then what the hell were all my scumcases of ari and implo about?

You've been back and forth on both so much though

[Merlyn]

4 hours left

waiting for implosion or bella

Yeah, stressful

[Merlyn]

crap

[Merlyn]

@mod- how does Bella's prod timer work here?

[Merlyn]

This is a fucking weird elo: I was coming in ready to vote for Ari. For me, either I've been wrong the whole game, or it's just mer. I am back from my really intense tine with the kids tho, so please don't rush this elo.

Bella, when you say 'wrong this whole game' or it's me, do you mean Ari or something else?

[Merlyn]

Bella, would you say you tend to lurk more as scum?

[Merlyn]

Anyone else got points for me?

I know you gave a sort of rundown of your reads a couple pages ago but I don't feel like I have a good idea of where your head is actually at right now, mostly because that rundown doesn't actually explain who you're feeling like you'd like to lim or not lim today and partially because it feels like you've sort of been playing your game in a way that's not enmeshed in the rest of the game. E.g., what did you think about the bop shot debacle? How are you feeling about like, Hero's waffling or Ari's ultimately going back to Hero?

Who specifically is your preferred lim(s) and why?

Let's start here. Im not sure why you are confused as you are about my reads: I think I've been really clear about who I definitely wouldn't lim, and who's an option. Hero and Ari both held similar places for me: they slid between my reads a bit, but hero was town and Ari had the potential to be scum. With you, I've basically never even thought of sr-ing you before the end of last phase, whereas I've never had mer as 'town'. This is what I'm saying about being wrong, potentially.

What do you mean you've never had me as town? You had me as prob town all this day:

Ok, merlyn is probably town, which helps narrow stuff down a bit.

I don't see the implosion push at all? I think in this game more than most toy need to be really confident with your trs and this is weak sauce.

Rh9 replacing in and immediately defending std just looks too scummy to be...both scum? Ugh, I thought for a sec that rh had replaced std and was defending his own slot, that's how hard their post made me double take.

I don't have any hard conclusions though.

[Merlyn]

As for the rest of the post, I'm just not emeshes for a few reasons: I think I've had different takes than a few people, but I also feel I've been a bit more definite about some things than some people, especially last day phase when it seemed noone had a clue. I'm also jasy not here as much as I'd like, and when I am here my timezone seems to mean noone else is, which I really struggle with. Anyway, back to reading

Hey, what's your timezone btw? I don't think you post overnight for me, I could try and be more around to interact

[Merlyn]

Mer, I have found it impossible to get on your wavelength all game, but I'm now concerned that it's mainly a me issue. I'd really love you to throw some questions at me, about my iso, or anything, so we can chat.

I have two questions out for you right now on this page if you want to start there, and I'll go answer the one you just asked me in 1231

[Merlyn]

VOTE: Hero at Heart I've gone back and forth on this a lot but 1143 solidified something for me. If Hero is right that I'm doomed then I don't really want Hero in the last day. If he's town he's a real wild card- sorry, Hero!- and if he's scum he's setting up an end of day where he can vote against me bc of his intense confidence I should have gone down, and he's also indicated a preference for Bella to live who has expressed a lot of doubt against me.

I don't see what you see in 1143. Can you explain this more?

Hero said this

think town never wins a 3p with me, ari and implo so i want to kill one of us.

and I thought that if Hero and Ari were both town, town won't win. Ari had Hero down as scum from coalition phase, and if he made it to the end she would need to hear a pretty compelling case on the third (non hero) person to not vote Hero. And Hero is a very emotional player, his reads are all over the place because they change with how he's feeling. For whatever reason that meant he was unwilling to just sit down and case someone in 1143 If he was town I couldn't see him convincing Ari who scum was. So in this scenario scum wins.

If Ari was scum, Hero was already saying he wouldn't vote for her, so Hero and Ari going to the end means scum wins.

If Hero was scum- I thought the whole thing where spent a lot of time saying why I was about to die was really unhelpful as town and potentially an excuse for him as scum to stop saying he'd never vote for me and set me up for the lim.

[Merlyn]

@Implo- how would you describe your scum game?

[Merlyn]

Another one for Implo- what's your best guess as to why you didn't get NK'ed after the STD lim?

[Merlyn]

I'm re&reading your games, mer. Any you think stand out?

I think if you look at my scum games they tend to skew more lurky than I've been here, but I'm actually trying to change that so I wouldn't say it clear me here.

For town games, maybe the recent trustfall or one further back where I was supersaint? I think those are good examples of what I look like as town.

[Merlyn]

A couple of questions for Bella:

I don't think you answered this explicitly- how would you characterize your scum game?
If Implo is the scum here, what do you think your chances are of catching him?

[Merlyn]

For me this might really just come down to what I think is more likely: a straightforward game where Bella is the scum and she's been a bit absent and thus hard to pin down, or a more complicated game where Implo is a scum mastermind who voted his partner off in cold blood.

I guess Occam's razor says I should just assume it's Bella- it's really just because I do think Implo is a very good player that keeps giving me pause

[Merlyn]

Whhaaaat first time?! Have fun!

[Merlyn]

I sort of have a similar point of view of you two except I'm nervous about Ari dying last night being you leaving me alive to lim bella.

I kind of see this point of view, given that you were open about sussing Bella yesterday, but Bella would be a dangerous choice for me as scum to keep alive as she's indicated for a lot of this game that she could see me as scum. If I were scum in this game I'm not sure I would chance that and go for Ari instead, who has been on the fence about me in a more neutral way and I could frame for leading the charge on Hero.

In general I've played two kinds of scum games on this site, very cerebral with a lot of posting and very lurky where I pocket early and try to always be the second choice instead of first for lim (with varying degrees of success). I also like to bus, so this game would definitely be in my scumrange. You've brought up 601 a couple of times now, and you're right that I was pretty annoyed with the game that day lol, I was feeling like I was an inevitable mislim for no good reason and maybe even being set up by a scum!Hero.

I think the best case I can make me for as town is that I don't know how I vote Hero yesterday as scum. He said multiple times he would never lim me, including before he flip flopped on similar vows. Even if he changed his mind, I could used that as ammo against him in a final three. I'd already gone on record as saying I thought he was town pretty strongly- as scum I don't think I deliberately court the heat by changing course there, I think I just vote Bella.

[Merlyn]

I mean maybe, but if you're scum and relying on me voting Bella then it doesn't matter who Bella votes.

I don't think you were so down on Bella that this would be a smart thing for me to do.

I don't quite follow this - the fact that he'd flip flopped on other such vows would be reason to believe he might flip flop on you, no?

When did Hero flip flop on a vow before the Ari one?

Especially in f3. I feel like someone changing their mind on something like that is something that in the modern meta is not actually seen as materially scummy. If anything that sort of thing is why I had been townreading Hero before I changed my mind.

I have no idea what the modern meta is lol.

I don't think there was ever momentum toward Bella yesterday, so you'd have had to be the first one to go in that direction and I feel like there'd be a risk associated with that. I guess this isn't even an argument that you're scum, I just don't agree that this is a great reason to townread you.

If there was no momentum towards Bella yesterday, then why would I be 'scum relying on you voting Bella' as quoted above?

[Merlyn]

In post 1247, Bellaphant wrote:
Implo, I feel like the ths nk was weirder than the drew nk: I asked earlier int he game why if scum wanted a low info kill, that it wasn't mer, and I think hero responded saying they'd never lim ths after the std flip (or something): what are everyone's thoughts on this?
Is the implication here that you think THS may have been a low-info kill by Merlyn because she wanted a low-info kill and couldn't shoot herself?

Iirc I felt pretty good about THS town but I don't really remember it being about his interactions with STD in a way that would mean to never lim him after the STD flip. But yeah, it's possible that my advocacy for THS as town made scum think THS wasn't gonna die this game so that it was a safe low-info kill or something.

What are you both talking about? It can't be Hero saying he'd never lim THS after the STD flip bc THS was the nightkill after STD was limmed.

[Merlyn]

I don't remember THS being widely townread at all, but I"ll go back and look

[Merlyn]

"I think the best case I can make me for as town is that I don't know how I vote Hero yesterday as scum" can we talk about this? I think getting rid of a loud voice is always helpful for scum?

If it's about getting rid of a loud voice, then what's the explanation for why he survived to D3?

I'm saying that there's never a good reason I as scum bring you vs. Hero.

Hero said he would never vote for me. So either he a) never votes for me or b) he goes back and his word and I have a great reason to vote him and convince the other person that Hero can't be trusted.

You on the other hand cast doubt on me for a good 3/4s of the game, it doesn't make sense for me to pick you for elo and lim Hero the day before. Implo is saying that he was doubtful enough about you yesterday that as scum it would make sense for me as scum to pick you and then go all in on convincing him. That's a big gamble from me as scum I think. I also don't think my actions today have been consistent with someone who needs to convince Implo you're scum.

[Merlyn]

P-edit, that's what I've been saying? Why do you think he was nked? Like, I don't even think it was to frame me, because i knew that two scum weren't in my pool of four people making shit choices, and hero has basically town cased then to me...

At the time, I thought it was odd that Hero wasn't the lim bc he was so townread. But getting off the wagon of a scum flip is probably the reason why. The people most likely to be NK'ed are the people on the STD wagon, I think, because they just flipped scum. That's, in order of votes: Implo, Merlyn, THS, Ari, Drew.

It's not going to be implosion, he was was the counter wagon. I was more scumread than townread at this point, I don't know why I'd be the likely lim here. THS kind of an unknown quantity at this point. Ari was suspicously on and off the wagon, she wouldn't be the likely lim. I don't know how many people besides myself and you were townreading Drew, so makes THS a good candidate.

[Merlyn]

Yeah, I'm thinking there's no rush to put the hammer down on you, I don't know why if you're town and Bella or Implo is scum that they don't come in and end it. Cautiousness tends to be more towny. The other option is that you really are scum

Worth noting Bella hasn't posted since the E-1 happened. Honestly I also still want her on the table for today, I feel like I'd have a hard time not voting her in f3. I really don't think Ari is the play today. I feel like I really like the reasons I have to townread her. Like fuck, Hero gave a great reason to townread her in his post against me seven minutes before voting her >_>

Ay yai yai. Does Bella ever take Implo to the end after he said this?

[Merlyn]

Him never voting you would be a great reason to have him at the end though?you'd be unlimable?!

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, as scum I don't lim him after he says that, I would take him to the end

[Merlyn]

Also, could you expand on this 'I also don't think my actions today have been consistent with someone who needs to convince Implo you're scum.'

I think I understand but I want to respond once I do

Basically the only reason I as scum take you is if I think I can convince Implo you're scum. What I meant is that I haven't been doing that. I haven't built a case on you to sell to him. I've been trying to solve you both.

[Merlyn]

I'm basically talking myself into voting for Implo

[Merlyn]

VOTE: Implosion If you're scum Bella congrats. But don't be scum please.

[Merlyn]

Holy shit

[Merlyn]

Well, up to you then!

[Merlyn]

I'm really not scum here. You can never trust me again in another game if I'm lying here but I'm not

[Merlyn]

Thsts what scum would say!

If you were, in trying to work out if what you just did would have any benefits for you, and like ...yeah, if you like pyschicly knew how much I liked team work, but in real terms, you just reduced Implos options to...you.

Lol I do not psychically know that though

I'm aware that if I was right implo would be voting me but someone has to vote first, and I realized that somewhere yesterday I had started interacting with you like I thought you were town. And then when I find that quote from implo saying he would have a hard time not voting you I just couldn't see you as the scum here

[Merlyn]

lol at myself stopping in the middle of a sentence.

I think merlyn voted me here because she saw bella starting to sway against me and her having the opportunity of being in real time with Bella and being able to be persuasive that way. Honestly it is a really good play. But she is scum.

Good luck Bella, he is very good at this. I stressed about that vote right until I hit enter and then stressed even more after that lol. But don't be snowed here, he's set this up for a long time

[Merlyn]

Yeah, I'm thinking there's no rush to put the hammer down on you, I don't know why if you're town and Bella or Implo is scum that they don't come in and end it. Cautiousness tends to be more towny. The other option is that you really are scum

Worth noting Bella hasn't posted since the E-1 happened. Honestly I also still want her on the table for today, I feel like I'd have a hard time not voting her in f3. I really don't think Ari is the play today. I feel like I really like the reasons I have to townread her. Like fuck, Hero gave a great reason to townread her in his post against me seven minutes before voting her >_>

Ay yai yai. Does Bella ever take Implo to the end after he said this?

how does implo ever come into today as town saying he were STILL pretty sure it was Bella and not even consider how odd that would be

[Merlyn]

oh hey that was my 14000th post. neat.

how does implo ever come into today as town saying he were STILL pretty sure it was Bella and not even consider how odd that would be

I never said this today. I said I was inclined to think it was Bella, and then I started digging in more to things; granted, digging into those things was making me lean more towards Bella, but I was definitely not sold yet.

I think saying 'i never said I was pretty sure, I said I was inclined ' is kind of splitting hairs lol

[Merlyn]

I think the vote on me is a going with the flow/opportunistic sort of thing - she felt like she could get away with it in the moment based on interacting with you and based on my rhetoric around her.

I don't think anything I said somehow becomes 'less' or 'not valid' by being read not in real time. I would have had the same thought process on how I arrived at my vote whether there were five minutes or five hours between posts.

[Merlyn]

And I think that this sort of in-the-moment cleverness is not really what she's describing here but in that sense it makes sense for her to think along those lines after describing her scum game differently (bc obviously scum aren't obligated to tell the complete truth).

No one has to believe me on this, they can go see for themselves in my games that I'm not the mastermindy kind of scum.

[Merlyn]

I think saying 'i never said I was pretty sure, I said I was inclined ' is kind of splitting hairs lol

Inclination is much weaker than "pretty sure". More relevantly you also said

not even consider how odd that would be

when I literally did consider in that post that it would be odd for Bella to leave me alive after I made that comment

Okay, I'll stop arguing with you about 'inclination' being weaker than 'pretty sure' because it's such a silly thing.

I don't think you DID consider it, that's my whole point. You said, it would be odd for Bella to leave me alive and then never pursued the thought.

[Merlyn]

I also honestly don't think my scumgame is very good.

In the one scumgame of yours I believe found (which Bella was also in) where everyone is playing under psedeonyms, people marveled at how good you were as scum actually.

Like maybe Merlyn was always planning to push me in f3 and I'm overcomplicating things with the whole "she decided to go with you in the moment" thing

So my plan now was to bring someone you said you suspected into the endgame, the same someone who has sussed me most of the game, and always convince them to vote you? That's...an incredibly complicated plan.

It's really frustrating to have been correctly read as town for the first couple days and I feel like I was basically bound to be scumread after that just for being alive :\. .

and yeah that's AtE, but etc. It's hard to provide hard evidence for something like "this player is capable as scum" when I don't know the player very well, I've played with her before but not much. But she is scum this game.

Posting this here for future reference that good scum will just lie about emotions!

[Merlyn]

HURT: merlyn
HEAL: implo

i saw that i have 1 notification from mala and i thought it was going to be her responding to the 1 question i asked her, but no it wasn't. yes i'm complaining for the sake of it.

anyway uhh. merlyn i'm starting to like less after someone pointed out that she hasn't really had that many reads (oh it was implo pog) and after reading that i can easily see her slot playing in a sort of quiet townie don't rock the boat scum play. implo feels townie. i liked the drew read and the merlyn read was a good catch. also i do have Thoughts on the drew/implo thing but considering the post right above me, i comment later

@ari, if you had to pick a coalition to form right now, what would it be?

also uh i will be pretty busy and confined to phoneposting for most of the day. this will likely not impact much but on the off chance it does i'm putting it out there. ok cool.

.can someone who knows more about the coalition meta discuss this unvote?

Oh god, the wifom in this post.

Fuck, datisi is good

lol, it's true, either he took his partner off the coalition or he put his partner on

[Merlyn]

Bella, I'll be mostly around for the next couple of hours if there's anything you want to ask me

[Merlyn]

The setup in principle rewards scum for distancing or even hard bussing during the coalition phase,

Datisi didn't show distancing or hard bussing towards me actually. He showed at most a mild distrust. Whereas Implo and Datisi do. not. interact. Even a little bit.

You don't have to take my word for either of these, go ISO us each with Datisi.

[Merlyn]

Also, if Merlyn's take is that Datisi and I didn't interact at all, then I'd like to think that if I were scum with Datisi, we would interact a lot?

The setup in principle rewards scum for distancing

Also, if you don't agree with that 'take', feel free to show me all the the interactions you had

[Merlyn]

Like, I don't think I'm especially *good* at scum

Hey, true or false: your last scum game was about a year ago, and multiple people marveled at how good as scum you are.

[Merlyn]

i said i agree with the statement that I didn't interact much with Datisi and that it's evidence that I'm town. Particularly if I am good at scum, I should know how to interact with a partner (especially a partner like Datisi) in a more convincing way than just ignoring them, whereas there's a very good explanation for why I ignored Datisi on d1 as town, as I said.

Aw, we're just going in circles here. You say it's evidence you're town that you didn't interact with Datisi after post after you said distancing would be a good idea as scum in a coalition game. You say you're not good at scum and that's why it can't be you today, but that if you ARE good at scum that's ALSO why it can't be you today.

I'm sure that statement is true but I do not remember what game that is lol. It's possible I'm better at scum than I give myself credit for but it's entirely irrelevant to the argument at hand, if anything the better I am at scum the less my d1 play toward Datisi would make sense if we were scum together.

I mentioned the game in question a few posts ago if you want to check on which one I found.

If it's irrelevant, why did you bring up that you don't think you're a good scum player? You brought it up because you wanted to use it as part of the argument that you couldn't have pulled this off.

[Merlyn]

Like, what kind of master class scum that I'm being made out to be rolls scum with *datisi* of all people and then just ignores him d1 lol. I feel like if I drew scum with Datisi I'd be excited and want to do something out there, like hard-reading him one way or the other, dialoguing with him a bunch, or something like that. I feel like the last thing I'd do is ignore him

One who is here, in the final three, that's who. And is using these very actions to try and paint a picture that's not true.

[Merlyn]

I don't really understand your point there at saying your posts are not directed at me- are you expecting me to, what, ignore your posts?

I also don't really understand what you mean by it would be unusual for a very talented player and a very inexperienced player to not interact much. I haven't really encountered that as a general rule or anything.

[Merlyn]

implo clearly does talk about his read of datisi a lot, so mer's take that this didn't happen is weird.

I said interact

[Merlyn]

like, look at the last day before this. Look how his thoughts on you switched so fast. Why? What solving happened in between? Look at the things he said. He literally said he couldn't imagine not voting for you in the final day....if he felt that strongly, WHY DIDN'T HE TRY AND SOLVE YOU AT ALL THAT DAY? Where are the posts where he goes back and looks at thing you did? Where is the attempt at analysis? Where's the vote?????

He played an amazing game here. I get it. But there are clues here to follow.

[Merlyn]

Tbf, I don't massively feel like you tried to solve me much? Actually, can you talk about your read on me?

??!

Trying to solve BOTH of you is literally all I did for like six days. I went back and read previous scum games, I asked a ton of questions, I read the whole stupid game again.

I'm actually really proud of myself for finding the last scum. This is the first game I've ever been right about both scum.

What do you want to hear about my read on you?

[Merlyn]

No,I know, sorry, worded badly. I can see what you've done!

I meant before..I don't know if we both just filled each other as 'meh, maybe scum?' or something else?

Until D3, you were solidly middle of the road, 'idk about her but I have other folks I want to solve first for me'

D3 I was wondering if you were lurking for game related purpose, and I was frankly leaning towards you if I Hero was the wrong choice and I made it to the end.

Today, I came in with that perspective, but when you started talking and interacting more I started to move away from the idea that you'd been lurking. I also read some of your games and I could only find one where you seemed to be lurking as scum and it was a while back. Around the same time the conversations with both you and Implo turned to 'why did specific NK's happen?' and 'why are we 3 in ELO?' and the more I started thinking about that and looking back on posts the more I realized it would be bizzare for you to take implo if you were scum. I also realized I'd started to respond to you somewhere around 1274 as someone who was talking to me in good faith vs. agenda. So I took the plunge on voting Implo.

[Merlyn]

I very much did try to solve Bella yesterday. I was waiting for a reply and then oops all deadline. I just didn't have a ton of time or energy for going back and analyzing stuff thoroughly at that time because, as I mentioned, i was doing stuff IRL.

Hey, RL is thing, I believe that you were legit busy even knowing that you're scum. I really was looking for the analyzing part though.

[Merlyn]

I wish I was scum here and these compliments were real lol

Idk if I'll be around till deadline- I've been opening and closing MS for a while now hoping I'll get to see the end but I'm supposed to be grocery shopping. I'll try though

[Merlyn]

this is so stressful

[Merlyn]

I had Implo D1, that slimy sonuva B got away though.

Congrats though lol

I was thinking about this all D4 Drew, I could feel you in the dead thread.

gg scum!! Implo that was a damn clinic you put on there. Just amazing!

Much love to Bella, you are a delight and I look forward to playing together again. I'll try and take your advice and give my reads more freely in the future

Thanks Auskua for modding! SO. MANY. CUTE. FROG PICS.

[Merlyn]

so my main struggle this game was figuring out nightkills. And of course I regretted every nightkill basically as soon as the following day started, I regretted shooting Drew as soon as Hero said they would have been pushing him, I regretted shooting Ari as soon as Bella said she'd have been pushing her. The main motivation for the THS and Drew kills was that I knew I was too townie coming out of d1/d2 and I needed it to not be that auspicious that I was being left alive, so I wanted to keep some of the other townier people alive with me. It *sort of* worked? I shot THS specifically because he was townreading me at the time IIRC and I wanted to shoot someone townreading me in the moment to play for the long game. I also wanted to shoot on the StD wagon. I shot Drew because I thought he was townreading me at that moment but was liable to go back.

I also don't begrudge the replace out, irl is more important.

Ah, the mystery of the THS killing revealed! Shooting Drew was very smart, I do think he wouldve gone back on you.

[Merlyn]

econd of all, merlyn, i just didn't get your thought process at all in regards to voting me. you knew you were town. it's /beneficial/ for you as town not to be voted by someone else, regardless of if they are town or scum. why do you think me not wanting to vote you because i am that confident you are not scum is a scum characteristic / anti-town thing to do? if both of us survived to elo then the game would basically play out like an elo with a confirmed townie meaning 50% ev instead of 33% ev, which is amazing. but i guess i wasn't clear about saying i won't vote you because i am sure you are town, lol.

It's more that I didn't really believe you wouldn't flip flop on that vote, Hero. Tbh I can still see a final 3 scenario where Implo gets you to change your mind and vote me. I also have to say that I don't know that I would have figured out Implo was scum here if Bella wasn't in the final 3.

[Merlyn]

from the mafia PT:

This one will be kind of a painstaking decision.

An operative consideration is "what would Bellaphant do as scum here"? The main dynamics: I've given townreads on ari and merlyn, probably stronger on ari. Merlyn had before said she was feeling me or bella, but then wound up voting Hero while also saying it could be Ari (lol). Ari is... a wildcard. I think if I kill Merlyn it feels like anyone's guess who Ari votes for in elo and also anyone's guess who Bella votes for. If I kill Ari then I think Merlyn will on average wind up feeling like she's suspicious of me but will end up voting Bella most of the time *unless* she thinks Bella would have shot her or me over Ari. Which she could think, because I've implied suspicion of Bella. The upside of this is that me and Bella both being alive tomorrow can easily be framed as scum leaving us both alive so I mislim her, whoever I kill.

There is also the option of just killing Bella. I feel like that pegs me a bit though since I'm suspicious of her.

I think the "default" kill here is Merlyn because she's been somewhat universally townread, Ari was suspected by the now-dead Hero at Heart, etc. The thing is that the 3p dynamics are pretty complex. My plan for most of the day was to shoot Ari but things have changed to the point where it feels very hard to pick.

If bella is scum here, she keeps me alive because she thinks she can get the third person to vote me, in principle. Honestly my gut says so strongly to shoot Ari because I feel like I have no idea how to manipulate the way she thinks about the game right now. The feeling I get is that a Merlyn kill sends vibes of "the game is going how scum wanted it to go" and an Ari kill sends vibes of "uh-oh, something weird is going on". And maybe in those vibes it's hard to get Merlyn to vote Bella with me but not hard to get Bella to vote Merlyn with me.

Kill: Aristeia

liable to change idfk

I'm really glad you articulated your thoughts here, it's genuinely fascinating to go back and see how your thought process led to the right decision for you here

[Merlyn]

nope, i would always go implo in a final 3 of you/me/implo. the fact that he was alive is simply too incriminating.

lol, is this not you in the dead thread thinking I'm the scum after all?

I think we all kinda played bad the last couple days, should have been a slam dunk for us, ah well.

i can agree with this

let's see if merlyn somehow turns it around though

kind of think mer is the last mafia but wouldn't be surprised if i'm being a clown

huh, maybe you right

in which case i will fucking laugh at the fact that i was sring her day 1 due to a mostly innocuous interaction with doctor drew that i decided randomly /must/ be svt and then never shared it because i thought it was a silly read.