Micro Normal 1100 | Game Over

[RolandOfGilead]

Long days and pleasant nights, my fellow townies.

[RolandOfGilead]

VOTE: Solon

[RolandOfGilead]

VOTE: Solon

Why do you besmirch my name with your vote?

It just feels like a little much at this stage of the game. You also, perhaps unintentionally, phrased your suspicion in a way that made it seem like you were taking it upon yourself to end RVS, but you did it by taking what seems to be trolling to be entirely serious. That seems like an odd way to end RVS if you really wanted to take it upon yourself to do so.

The RP here is also a little jarring, since from what I can tell, you did plenty of RP in your last game where you were scum. It is a handy way to redirect attention but it's not something I'm totally comfortable with.

[RolandOfGilead]

Do I detect role-fishing?

VOTE: Gob

I declare that RVS is now over. Onwards!

So which part of Gob’s post was rolefishing?

Why u trying to play the otherside now?

You made your line in the sand FreezerGuy.

Also i am a cop with a gun. I check role alignmente and kill people.

I think I'm going to have to defer to others on what the F you are doing here. You're clearly trolling, but that's also an incredibly effective scum strategy to just troll all game long and give yourself an excuse to not move the game forward. Because trolling is perhaps "just your thing" or some such.

[RolandOfGilead]

im the cop

protect me tonight

I’m the vig

I’m shooting you tonight

See this sort of thing does NOT bother me so much, because it's a like-for-like response. If anyone took GuyInFreezer seriously here, that would make me scratch my head a little.

[RolandOfGilead]

Not a bad answer. You can be town, for now.

I AM town, not just for now, but for the duration of this game. But thanks?

Feels like you want to put yourself in the driver's seat here.

[RolandOfGilead]

I see, I see.

If there are two scum openly lolclaiming like that, in your opinion, what do you think they hope to gain?

P-Edit: FOS - Finger of Suspicion. Basically I-got-my-eyes-on-you

They hope to gain reactions to their role-claims, like I've already said.

I'm perturbed by this line of questioning. It feels like you're trying to pacify rather than advance the game, which is what I'm trying to do.

In fact, I think I've seen enough to put you as my number one suspect.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: GuyInFreezer

Are you just going to vote for anyone who asks a question now?

[RolandOfGilead]

Okay. Then what is it about my question that you are fine with, vs. the question GuyInFreezer asked you?

Their question didn't really seem unfair or indicative of anything to me, so I'm trying to sort out why you seemingly reacted like this to it.

[RolandOfGilead]

What looks even worse for you right now, Solon, is the fact that you added vote #3. We need 5 votes to eliminate someone, yes? So you opted to turn this into a wagon, using what seems like kinda odd and wishy-washy rationale for it, which could push GuyInFreezer to have to reveal their role way sooner than we want to. I don't at all like the fact that a wagon has formed THIS early, before everyone has even checked in yet. Like what is the rush?

[RolandOfGilead]

I mean, it's page 1, who cares? This is a common occurrence in the game for people to say things that don't push the game forward. He was play-acting in post 14. Is that egregious?

[RolandOfGilead]

Yeah I feel pretty okay with where my vote is right now.

[RolandOfGilead]

Yeah I feel pretty okay with where my vote is right now.

btw you mentioned that you played with scum-Solon before right? Is that your only experience with Solon?

I have not played with Solon. I just poked into their post history to do a bit of background research but I was not involved in that game.

[RolandOfGilead]

By the same token, why are you holding me to such standards in the first couple of pages?

Well I dunno man, why are you pulling anything from post 14 if the first couple of pages are [insert whatever term you are comfortable with since you seem to take issue with whatever words I assign]?

[RolandOfGilead]

Yeah I feel pretty okay with where my vote is right now.

No matter, we'll be buddies eventually. I can feel it

Uh, gonna tell you right now, with 100% honesty, if you keep up the way you're interacting with me, we most certainly will not. Just so you know.

[RolandOfGilead]

Solon is giving a master class in conflation right now.

[RolandOfGilead]

RolandOfGilead seems to be town but i think their defense of Freezer is misplaced

You interpret my actions here as defense rather than offense?

[RolandOfGilead]

I've heard that conflation is a towntell.

Okay. From who?

[RolandOfGilead]

I've heard that conflation is a towntell.

Okay. From who?

It's been whispered through many an ear, going back generations.

Who really can know the source of such wisdom?

So you made it up, to try and make yourself sound better, got it.

[RolandOfGilead]

This is fun to watch but I’m not sure it’s giving me much information.

What do you think of what Solon is doing here? Am I right to be suspicious?

[RolandOfGilead]

This is fun to watch but I’m not sure it’s giving me much information.

This take, tbh, is a little odd to me. We have GuyInFreezer saying they have 3 (? correct me if I'm wrong) townreads based on the first few pages, whereas you are saying you got pretty much nothing from this. Why are two players getting such different takeaways here?

[RolandOfGilead]

This is fun to watch but I’m not sure it’s giving me much information.

It doesn’t have to be grandiose you know.

It can be simple things like “I think GuyInFreezer is townie and Solon is tripping on something hard,” “I think Solon vs Roland is Town vs Town,” or even something like “I think Gob is town because I have the bar really low for him and he went over that bar.”

Perhaps you two just have different ways of approaching the game?

[RolandOfGilead]

This is fun to watch but I’m not sure it’s giving me much information.

This take, tbh, is a little odd to me. We have GuyInFreezer saying they have 3 (? correct me if I'm wrong) townreads based on the first few pages, whereas you are saying you got pretty much nothing from this. Why are two players getting such different takeaways here?

To be fair, if he’s experienced he probably can pick up on things I can’t. I’m learning, especially how things are done on this forum. If anyone is getting meta-based reads from the first few pages, I can safely say that I wouldn’t be able to agree or disagree with those just based on not understanding certain metas yet. But to reiterate, I can’t give any actual reads at the moment, I’m just observing. There are a few people I vibe with in terms of the way they post but that doesn’t mean I read them as town yet, just that I’ll enjoy reading their posts more than others.

Fair

[RolandOfGilead]

This is fun to watch but I’m not sure it’s giving me much information.

What do you think of what Solon is doing here? Am I right to be suspicious?

You’re probably both town being silly. I’ll report back with more intelligent reads like this soon.

You know I didn’t actually expected to see this, and I am proud of you. I might have to up the bar on you now.

Call me crazy but I find this strangely condescending.

[RolandOfGilead]

That was my genuine surprise actually.
“I have no opinion” to “I think these two are town infighting” is one hell of a jump.

Why?

Saying a fight is TvT is literally the easiest and safest thing one can do in a game of mafia.

Wouldn't saying nothing be even easier and safer?

If you say an interaction is TvT, you're documenting town reads on two people, not just one.

[RolandOfGilead]

You can't just say nothing forever.

I never said anything about staying silent forever.

[RolandOfGilead]

Solon if you want to pocket me, step number one is going to be to stop twisting my arguments and taking liberties with what I am saying.

[RolandOfGilead]

I have 2 locktowns and 1 hella strong townread. And it’s only page 3. I really might solve this by page 10.

Who were these reads at this point in time?

[RolandOfGilead]

I'm not taking any liberties or twisting arguments.

I am telling you that you are twisting my arguments and misrepresenting them. I know what my arguments are, what I am saying, and you do not. It is not

your

place to decide whether

you

are fairly representing what

I

am saying. It is

mine

and mine alone.

[RolandOfGilead]

I have 2 locktowns and 1 hella strong townread. And it’s only page 3. I really might solve this by page 10.

Who were these reads at this point in time?

This is fun to watch but I’m not sure it’s giving me much information.

It doesn’t have to be grandiose you know.

It can be simple things like “I think GuyInFreezer is townie and Solon is tripping on something hard,” “I think Solon vs Roland is Town vs Town,” or even something like “I think Gob is town because I have the bar really low for him and he went over that bar.”

You can call me slow if you want, but I don't see how that answers my question.

[RolandOfGilead]

Yo
VOTE: Doctor Drew
Gob and GuyinFreezer are town

This seems very arbitrary and unnatural to me.

For one, I don't think Gob has done anything to earn a town read and has, at the very least, done a lot less in general than other people here. Any read on Gob right now is pretty high-error. A pretty high dose of trolling which could be bored townie amusing himself or a scum playstyle that excuses a lack of contribution. I can't identify anything he has done here as moving the game forward so he has got to be a null at best.

The vote on Doctor Drew cannot possibly be based on anything, since all he has said is that he hasn't had time to play yet. If Gob is null, then Doctor Drew is null times a thousand. So perhaps the vote is just RVS for FancyPants' first post, but then it suddenly isn't RVS at all if he's giving actual townreads.

It adds up to a fairly arbitrary mishmash that I don't understand.

[RolandOfGilead]

“I think Solon vs Roland is Town vs Town,”

or even something like

“I think Gob is town because I have the bar really low for him and he went over that bar.”

These were my reads in disguise

Why do your reads need to be in disguise?

[RolandOfGilead]

RolandOfGilead seems to be town but i think their defense of Freezer is misplaced

This is the only thing Gob has done that I would characterize as "moving the game forward". I don't think Gob gets credit for the reactions that were made to his trolling that did move the game forward; that credit should go to those who reacted. But as far as I can tell, the only thing he's done to help move things forward is deliver reads on two people, without any rationale for it. That cannot possibly be all that a person needs to do to earn a town read from someone else.

[RolandOfGilead]

VOTE: FancyPants

[RolandOfGilead]

What in the actual fuck

[RolandOfGilead]

I'm not taking any liberties or twisting arguments.

I am telling you that you are twisting my arguments and misrepresenting them. I know what my arguments are, what I am saying, and you do not. It is not

your

place to decide whether

you

are fairly representing what

I

am saying. It is

mine

and mine alone.

I really vibe with this, seems like genuine frustration.

Roland, how much experience do you have with mafia?

I used to play it with an old World of Warcraft guild of mine on our guild forum, though we called it Werewolf rather than mafia. I've played Town of Salem also, more recently. Been a while since I have played a true forum game of mafia, though, and our days were much shorter than this also. So if my playstyle seems a little weird or something y'all aren't used to, that might be why?

[RolandOfGilead]

Yes, Roiland and his quest for the drak toweler.

[RolandOfGilead]

Indeed, it makes perfect sense to abandon a town read and do a complete 180 if a person answers your question about mafia history and makes a dark tower reference. This vote makes perfect sense.

[RolandOfGilead]

I said perfect sense twice. Damn my redundancy!

[RolandOfGilead]

Indeed, it makes perfect sense to abandon a town read and do a complete 180 if a person answers your question about mafia history and makes a dark tower reference. This vote makes perfect sense.

Also, who said I was town reading you?

I thought that was what you meant to convey when you commented on my frustration. I guess that wasn't your intent, then?

[RolandOfGilead]

I have a strong disdain for the works of Stephen King

Damn, that sounds like Misery but good for you for taking The Stand. Your strong opinions are The Shining quality here. IT must be difficult to be the Gunslinger in what must feel like The Dead Zone, Under the Dome. Maybe we should pull a Shawshank Redemption and bust out of this Pet Sematary to send the scum walking down The Green Mile. Anyway, let’s get back to the game and catch some bad guys!

Carrie on.

In case anyone is wondering, this is the most award-worthy post of this game.

[RolandOfGilead]

What do you think my intent was?

To convey that you were townreading me.

Also about asking what your mafia experience was as well.

To understand me better. For the same reason anyone asks anyone how much experience they have in any activity they are participating in.

These feel like some pretty straightforward questions and I don't understand why you needed to ask them.

[RolandOfGilead]

I have a strong disdain for the works of Stephen King

Damn, that sounds like Misery but good for you for taking The Stand. Your strong opinions are The Shining quality here. IT must be difficult to be the Gunslinger in what must feel like The Dead Zone, Under the Dome. Maybe we should pull a Shawshank Redemption and bust out of this Pet Sematary to send the scum walking down The Green Mile. Anyway, let’s get back to the game and catch some bad guys!

Carrie on.

In case anyone is wondering, this is the most award-worthy post of this game.

The game barely started and you're already throwing out value judgements every which way. How about you yourself move the game state forward? Hm? These posts are just as worthless as many as mine.

It looks like I just did.

[RolandOfGilead]

What I mean is: your frustration here seems genuine. If you were scum, I don't think you'd have minded that I said that you were pretty null at this point in the game. But you seem at least a little pissed off that I said you weren't really moving the game forward. That's some good evidence of your towniness and helps all of us to focus our efforts better.

[RolandOfGilead]

So you don't think that's townie of Gob to have reacted like that? Like what is the issue you take with what I just pointed out?

[RolandOfGilead]

So you don't think that's townie of Gob to have reacted like that? Like what is the issue you take with what I just pointed out?

Again....more votes please

Why are you not answering the question? I feel like I have a legitimate point here, that what Gob did just now is townie. Why is it so scummy of me to point this out that you request others to hop on the wagon and vote for me also for making what I honestly believe is a totally legitimate point? What is this?

[RolandOfGilead]

Alright well I tell you what dude, if you think people are going to join a bandwagon to vote for me for making a good point about Gob's behavior then good luck with that lol. You are free to conf-bias your way into a read on me if you like but, as one of my town reads, I hope you instead do something that is actually productive, like giving more thought to my case on FancyPants, for example.

At the very least, you really shouldn't act like you have the game figured out when you haven't seen enough content from everyone yet. Who are you to say that the scum team is not fully contained in the people who have hardly posted a thing in this game, which includes Random Nurse (3 posts), FancyPants (1 post), and Not_Scum (1 post)? I know it is fun to go all inspector gadget on what you have and solve the puzzle, but it's probably a lot more likely that the people hardly saying anything are the ones more worthy of your suspicion.

[RolandOfGilead]

...this whole situation with Gob is predicated on what I said about him in the case I wrote on FancyPants. I said I didn't think Gob had done nearly enough to deserve a town read at that point, which was relevant for my case on FancyPants. Gob was frustrated to hear that and expressed these frustrations, and importantly he was frustrated about the implication that he wasn't moving things forward, not that he wasn't being townread. I think that's a good reason to townread him.

You hated this line of thinking so much that you not only voted for me for saying it; you are even encouraging everyone else to vote for me for saying it. And now I find out you don't even know where the line of thinking originated from? Not to mention you seem unable to even explain your rationale anyway? So clearly this case of yours is bullshit.

On top of that, it's really strange you haven't read it, since my frustration post was 142, and my case post was 147, but you somehow missed post 147 entirely, even though it's probably the most useful thing I've said so far and was only 5 posts down from what you responded to. So you just stopped reading or something? I am supposed to believe that you read 142, you had enough of a scum read on me at that point to set up a tricky question for me, but then you suddenly lost interest in anything else I had to say beyond that, despite me being interesting enough to you that you'd want to ask me a tricky question like this.

I'm also rereading what you said earlier:

I really vibe with this, seems like genuine frustration.

You are surprised (!) that I read this to mean you must think I am town. I am starting to think that perhaps I caught an action that didn't align with your words and you are suddenly forced into a really weird explanation of the words you wrote. I don't otherwise know how to explain what you're doing here, other than to think that maybe you just kinda blurted these words out without really thinking about the message that was coming through. I can't find a way to read this and make sense of the vote you cast.

Right now I feel good about GuyInFreezer, Solon, Kay, and now Gob, and I am null on Random Nurse and not_mafia until they say more. But it is still entirely possible that you and FancyPants are the scum team. At the very least, you're in my scum pool now so

VOTE: Doctor Drew

[RolandOfGilead]

Why did your read on me change, Roland?

The more we talked, and the more that you talked in general, the less likely it seemed to me that you were scum. When I moved my vote off you, it was more to see how you'd react to that, if you'd just lie down after I did so, and the fact that you didn't just reinforces my belief that your concerns are genuine.

[RolandOfGilead]

So you don't think that's townie of Gob to have reacted like that? Like what is the issue you take with what I just pointed out?

Again....more votes please

Why are you not answering the question? I feel like I have a legitimate point here, that what Gob did just now is townie. Why is it so scummy of me to point this out that you request others to hop on the wagon and vote for me also for making what I honestly believe is a totally legitimate point? What is this?

I find this confusing, as you are talking about Gob but Drew doesn't seem to be talking about Gob from what I can see.

If you find something confusing, then why take issue with the question? The question is meant to alleviate this confusion, no matter what it is about.

This whole thing around Gob feels a bit like blowing your own trumpet - trying to display how you are doing townie things. I don't really agree with your point on Gob, or at best it's a weak point and not worthy of the hype you're trying to generate over it.

You completely misunderstand my point if you think

I

am the one generating the hype here. Did you not see Drew say, multiple times, that

he

wants all of you to vote for me because of what I said about Gob? If you think my point on him is flimsy, that's totally fine, I'm in full agreement that it's shaky to town read a person on just that one thing, but what I don't understand at all is how my stance here is just so reprehensible that Drew wants all of town to vote for me because of it. This hype is a Drew thing, not a Roland thing.

[RolandOfGilead]

Alright well I tell you what dude, if you think people are going to join a bandwagon to vote for me for making a good point about Gob's behavior then good luck with that lol. You are free to conf-bias your way into a read on me if you like

but, as one of my town reads, I hope you instead do something that is actually productive

, like giving more thought to my case on FancyPants, for example.

At the very least, you really shouldn't act like you have the game figured out when you haven't seen enough content from everyone yet. Who are you to say that the scum team is not fully contained in the people who have hardly posted a thing in this game, which includes Random Nurse (3 posts), FancyPants (1 post), and Not_Scum (1 post)? I know it is fun to go all inspector gadget on what you have and solve the puzzle, but it's probably a lot more likely that the people hardly saying anything are the ones more worthy of your suspicion.

So why did you townread Drew at the time of this post?

I didn't. I was null on him and wanted to see how he would react to me suggesting that I town-read him.

And look at how he responded. He laid right down, acquiesced, asked me, yes Roland, alright, let's set aside my concern about you and talk about your case on FancyPants instead, guy who townreads me and who I should perhaps try to be pocketing. Let's discuss!

It was both that reaction to it, and the question itself (which was a bizarre thing to ask about, as I explained), that definitively moved him out of null territory for me and into scum territory.

His follow-up to my case on him was very unsatisfying also and continues to show a lack of engagement on his part. Why am I not scum-reading the two inactive players, he asks? I already explained that I was null on them and would continue to be null on them until they posted more, so it seemed like a desperate attempt to try and dig up something to divert attention rather than a genuine thought.

[RolandOfGilead]

On a side note, I no longer scum-read FancyPants. It obviously makes no sense for him to be partnered with Drew, since he initially voted for Drew (which, sure, you could argue was distancing) but then finished his analysis of the game, gave a good summary of where he thinks things are at, and then allowed his vote to stay on Drew, not taking the out (much harder to convince me that

that

is distancing). Drew is my heaviest scum read at the moment so I'm more inclined to align my reads with that in mind.

[RolandOfGilead]

I have 0 interest in doing that.

[RolandOfGilead]

I have 0 interest in doing that.

Sometimes we must let go of our pride and do what is requested of us.

[RolandOfGilead]

@Drew

It's crazy how much of your case depends on your interpretation of my experience and what I am supposedly capable of. It's an angle that allows you to construct a case basically however you please, where you assign me however much experience I would need to have in order for your case to make sense.

I never told you how many games I played on my old guild forums. Was it two? Ten? Fifty? Three hundred? You don't know, because I didn't tell you. So how are you able to build a case based on my experience when you know so little about it?

It just seems to me like you're talking about stuff that is very easy for you to mold and modify as you see fit. Talking about things outside of this game, relying on those things for your reads, is a terrific strategy for scum, because who can really validate it? Nobody else will be able to question your assumption on my experience because they don't know what it is either. You are working with material that's very convenient for you to use, very versatile and easy to manipulate in whichever way you need in order for your argument to make sense.

[RolandOfGilead]

Oh btw I’ve reduced the pull to Nurse/Drew/N_M at this point. I’m technically done with solves, but this feels way too easy and I never get easy games, so I’m now at a lookout mode to see if there are any new developments throughout the day.

This is also where I am, with the exception that I'm null on Gob. I just cannot understand what he's doing, not in a scummy way but in a genuinely perplexed way. (as in, I am the one who is perplexed)

[RolandOfGilead]

@Gob

Can you promise that you are actually playing to your win condition?

[RolandOfGilead]

Stuff it, Kirby.

[RolandOfGilead]

My response was just like-for-like for you calling me Roiland, but you're starting to get needlessly hostile here and I'm not going to engage. I do know what's going on in this game and I have fully described all of my reasoning for everything I've said. If there's a take of mine you don't agree with, you're free to review and pick apart my case, but these broad statements without citing any evidence aren't accomplishing anything. Threatening to break game rules to get your way sure isn't helping either.

[RolandOfGilead]

D

o

w

n

B

a

d

S

+

(

I

/

2

)

C

o

l

d

C

a

b

b

a

g

e

T

h

u

n

d

e

r

C

l

a

p

M

a

r

y

S

e

e

d

c

o

l

e

Q

u

a

c

k

F

e

a

t

h

e

r

s

M

c

G

r

a

w

F

a

r

t

a

r

u

s

N

o

t

_

M

a

f

i

a

Literally what the hell is this.

Are YOU playing to your win condition?

[RolandOfGilead]

My interest level in this game is dropping dramatically right now. Literally what is this shit.

[RolandOfGilead]

Wdym I’m a victim too!

At this point I’m waiting on nurse to show up before I go guns blazing

But what's the point? If two people are just trolling and not even trying, that could be the entire scum team right there and all of our solving efforts are pointless. If people aren't even participating, we are powerless to actually get to the bottom of anything.

[RolandOfGilead]

It's Roiland, bruh, get it right!

[RolandOfGilead]

Well there is a development.
I think I’m warming up to an idea of Drew maybe being town.

Huh. Why?

[RolandOfGilead]

So why don't you ask me some tough questions then, Jackson, if you want clarity on my slot?

Unlike Drew, I will actually answer your questions and explain where I'm coming from.

[RolandOfGilead]

But if you're gonna carry on with "I kinda just have this FEELING, man!" then it certainly won't be MY fault that the game isn't progressing.

[RolandOfGilead]

For me I don't see anything wrong with believing that Random Nurse / Not_scum / Doctor Drew contains our two scum.

[RolandOfGilead]

Also, what's your basis for saying Drew and NM can't be wolves together? How do you have any clarity at all on anything associated with NM?

[RolandOfGilead]

Feel free to argue that solve

Sure, okay. The only thing NM has done is provide a reads list with literally no background. He's an empty canvas.

This is like if you go to an art museum and look at a piece of art and say "I think the point is to describe the emptiness of life, the void within us all" and I say "dude, it's just a blank sheet of scratch paper". I just don't really understand how you can make ANY conclusions about it at all.

[RolandOfGilead]

For me I don't see anything wrong with believing that Random Nurse / Not_scum / Doctor Drew contains our two scum.

If you have to pick two, which would they be?

Kind of an unfair question because Random Nurse appears to be completely absent, so it isn't fair to make a decision on that slot. But I do feel good about Drew being scum.

[RolandOfGilead]

I mean nothing is stopping us from assuming that RN is lurking scum.

He could be anything. Schrodinger's Nurse.

[RolandOfGilead]

On a side note, I no longer scum-read FancyPants. It obviously makes no sense for him to be partnered with Drew, since he initially voted for Drew (which, sure, you could argue was distancing) but then finished his analysis of the game, gave a good summary of where he thinks things are at, and then allowed his vote to stay on Drew, not taking the out (much harder to convince me that that is distancing). Drew is my heaviest scum read at the moment so I'm more inclined to align my reads with that in mind.

Are you changing your read on them because of your read on Drew?

Yes. If my read on Drew somehow got flipped, then my townread on FancyPants would probably change.

I want to lay down my case on Drew and see if he'll actually respond to it. One of my biggest issues right now is how evasive he's been with me.

[RolandOfGilead]

Okay, let me lay down my case on why I think Doctor Drew is scum, why I think he's evil, why I think he's the most supreme scum-king of scumville!!!111!!



Okay, sorry real life Dr. Drew, I will stay focused.

The biggest issue I have is with this:

I'm not taking any liberties or twisting arguments.

I am telling you that you are twisting my arguments and misrepresenting them. I know what my arguments are, what I am saying, and you do not. It is not

your

place to decide whether

you

are fairly representing what

I

am saying. It is

mine

and mine alone.

I really vibe with this, seems like genuine frustration.

Which was immediately followed by

VOTE: Roland

I just can't piece together why he is saying "I really vibe with this" in particular. That is something you say when you have an intuitive agreement with something. I've had many such moments myself in this game, where maybe I can't put into exact words why I agree, I just know that, deep down inside, I do. So when a person says "I really vibe with this", and if it is said with honesty, it should mean that a person feels townie about someone BEYOND what they can describe in words.

His subsequent vote makes it clear that he didn't feel that way at all, that he didn't actually vibe with this, so why is he saying that he did? It's an odd inconsistency I can't explain from a Doctor-Drew-being-town perspective. I just can't. But I can see it from a "type some words that townies like to type sometimes" scummy perspective.

I brought this up to him and his response was super weird:

In the interest of full disclosure....

Your frustration felt genuine....but is very easy to fake as scum. I wanted to know your experience since N00b scum would have a harder time faking it imo(and tbh, it did have a tinge of fakeness to it). Your response to my question made me feel good to throw a vote out to see what happens.

And kinda seems like you acted in a way that someone who knows how the game works, but doesn't have all the experience would react as scum

Also makes me feel as of your buddy(if I am correct about you) is not as present as you are to guide you a bit

First of all, to highlight what I was frustrated about: I was frustrated about Solon misrepresenting my arguments. And here's the kicker with that:

both scum and town would be frustrated by that.

I don't know why he is working this angle about whether my frustration about my words being misrepresented is "genuine" when literally anyone of any alignment would be frustrated to see someone misrepresent what they are saying. Why would it not be genuine? Introduce me to the person who is not frustrated when others twist their words and misrepresent their arguments in literally any serious context imaginable and I'll give you ten thousand dollars, no joke. He is digging for something that is scum-adjacent and hoping it will stick.

In particular, I REALLY don't like what he's doing with

And kinda seems like you acted in a way that someone who knows how the game works, but doesn't have all the experience would react as scum

as he is suddenly basing his read of me on some well-calibrated sense of how much experience I have with this game, and I did NOT give him nearly enough detail to really allow him to thoroughly establish what my experience level is with this game. I said

I used to play it with an old World of Warcraft guild of mine on our guild forum, though we called it Werewolf rather than mafia. I've played Town of Salem also, more recently.

No sense there of how many games I played, how much experience I have, and yet he feels confident enough to come up with some level of experience I must have in order to suit his needs. He is building his argument on his own assumptions here, NOT on any information I gave him.

Moving on, I explained why I was townreading Gob, and without explaining why, he is trying to manipulate all of you into voting for me:

What I mean is: your frustration here seems genuine. If you were scum, I don't think you'd have minded that I said that you were pretty null at this point in the game. But you seem at least a little pissed off that I said you weren't really moving the game forward. That's some good evidence of your towniness and helps all of us to focus our efforts better.

More votes please

I persist with asking him to explain why he takes such issue with my Gob read and he just. won't. do it.

So you don't think that's townie of Gob to have reacted like that? Like what is the issue you take with what I just pointed out?

Again....more votes please

Why the obstinance? Why the fear to make his case? He's afraid to put into words why he wants people to suspect me and is depending on, I dunno, his clout, his rapport with others perhaps, to do the heavy lifting here, rather than being honest and forthright and actually explaining why these actions of mine are scummy.

But the real coup-de-gras is this post:

Blah blah blah, give consideration to my case on FancyPants

Ok, whats your case on FancyPants?

I need to stress how incredibly weird it is that he didn't know my case on FancyPants. The post he first pushed me about is post 142, which he quoted above and seemed to find very important, perhaps very telling. Post 142 is where he sees something about this RolandOfGilead fellow and he's suddenly very interested in his alignment. My take on FancyPants? Post 147. Literally just 5 posts down. So what do you want me to believe here, that he read this super suss post from me, post 142, and then suddenly lost interest in anything else I had to say, especially not what was probably one of the most interesting things I've said in this entire game, which I said just 5 posts later? He really just stopped reading posts from me, didn't move any further down the page, didn't pay attention to anything else I was saying? Why would he do that

if he was genuinely interested in my alignment???

Why would he stop reading stuff from me?

And furthermore, all this stuff with my read on Gob, how can he find it so scummy when he doesn't even know what it originated from in the first place?

Instead of having to explain all this, he tries a redirect with this:

Why are you scum reading them and not Random Nurse and Not Mafia.....two others who have barely posted?

I literally JUST told him I had them null, I had answered his question already: they haven't posted enough for me to have them as anything other than null. If he had actually read my response and was genuinely interested in sorting me out, he would read what I said, but this is multiple instances now where I've caught him clearly not reading what I am saying, which I think is because he doesn't need to, he knows I'm a townie and he is scum and he just needs to throw out enough stuff to get me framed and get everyone else on board with it.

Otherwise, Drew has largely avoided talking about the game in a collective sense, jumps on any and all opportunities to talk about stuff that has nothing to do with the game to up his post count. I know his read on me, I know his take on Gob's slot, I know he's big-time buttering up Solon for the most minimal of efforts to bolster his case

I think townies are just as eager to defend themselves as scum, in some ways it's more emotional to defend oneself as town because you know your accusers are wrong. Whereas if you're scum you know your accusers have a point.

Do you buy that Drew's 166 is not an implicit town read of Roland?

I would interpret it as a conditional townread, depending on Roland's experience of the game.

I certainly don't think it's scummy of Drew to have townie feelings about Roland and to then change to scumreading him upon further developments. I've done the same myself, as Roland appeared very townie early in the game, but he seems scummy in his recent exchange with Drew.

^^^

Check out the big brain on Solon!

They understood why I asked the question about Roland's experience with mafia.

and he's sheeping a scum take on Kay rather than offering it up himself

I agree with your Roland, Freezer and Solon reads. I am not sure where the Drew one is coming from, and I ask not just because I wanna read Drew.

I know you are still catching up, but anything you want to ask me?

Pre Edit: I do agree about Kay, something seems kinda forced about their posting.

Otherwise I find it really hard to figure out how he feels about people in general, and I still get the sense that he is reluctant to really lay down a definitive set of reads.

This is why I believe Doctor Drew is mafia, and I don't see myself moving off of this stance until he actually makes an effort to explain and reconcile the things I've highlighted here.

How did I do, real-life Dr. Drew?

[RolandOfGilead]

Roland, it is coup de grace.

Coup de lick my balls.

If you expect me to respond to every point you are making, you will be disappointed. You have made up your mind on me--

Gonna stop you right there. It was clear, was it not, that I ended it by giving you an opportunity to explain these things, yes? That it would not be fair to describe what I am doing as "tunneling" you but that I simply have a lot of question marks on my end that I need explained? You will note that I did not end by requesting everyone to pile on you or any such thing; I gave you the chance to explain yourself. I said:

I don't see myself moving off of this stance until he actually makes an effort to explain and reconcile the things I've highlighted here.

I did NOT say

Therefore, Drew is definitively mafia, my mind is totally made up, everyone jump on him!

(which, by the way, is essentially what YOU did when you made your case on me)

But if you are denying the opportunity to explain any of this, then suit yourself.

Why did it take so long to actually case me after your omgus vote on me?

A flimsy deflection, but it's not that I hadn't cased you; I simply had not yet made this effort to document all of it.

[RolandOfGilead]

It was a fun read

It was actually, I do enjoy playing with Roland

See even THIS is a lie, because you keep on not reading things I said!

Exhibit A:

Yo
VOTE: Doctor Drew
Gob and GuyinFreezer are town

This seems very arbitrary and unnatural to me.

For one, I don't think Gob has done anything to earn a town read and has, at the very least, done a lot less in general than other people here. Any read on Gob right now is pretty high-error. A pretty high dose of trolling which could be bored townie amusing himself or a scum playstyle that excuses a lack of contribution. I can't identify anything he has done here as moving the game forward so he has got to be a null at best.

The vote on Doctor Drew cannot possibly be based on anything, since all he has said is that he hasn't had time to play yet. If Gob is null, then Doctor Drew is null times a thousand. So perhaps the vote is just RVS for FancyPants' first post, but then it suddenly isn't RVS at all if he's giving actual townreads.

It adds up to a fairly arbitrary mishmash that I don't understand.

Ok, whats your case on FancyPants?

Exhibit B:

Right now I feel good about GuyInFreezer, Solon, Kay, and now Gob, and

I am null on Random Nurse and not_mafia until they say more

. But it is still entirely possible that you and FancyPants are the scum team. At the very least, you're in my scum pool now so

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Yes I read your displeasure with Fancy's vote on me, and read on Gob.

Why are you scum reading them and not Random Nurse and Not Mafia

.....two others who have barely posted?

You purportedly love my contributions to this game despite not even reading them. A likely story.

[RolandOfGilead]

I read the wallpost, and I'm glad I did cuz it gave me more resolve to keep my vote where it is*

If you really have to flip me in order to start taking my case seriously, you go right ahead. Whatever I need to do to get town pointed in the right direction.

[RolandOfGilead]

I mean it's like this: I just made the best possible effort I am likely capable of making to make a case on someone. If this case isn't enough for you guys then I am truly at a loss as to what could be, and I doubt I could even be effective for town if I really can't get through to anyone at this point. So yeah, if that's what it takes, so be it.

[RolandOfGilead]

The sad thing is, it's still entirely possible that the seven of us who are active are town, and the possible scum team of random nurse and not mafia are just coasting to victory while town keeps chasing our tails. Drew wants you to believe I'm tunneling him when really all I want is for someone to tell me if they think I've got a case on him or not, if I'm on the right track. Because I do townread every other active person here. Should I not be doing that? Am I missing something on someone else, and if so, can you demonstrate to all of us what is wrong? Like, please, work with me here, people.

[RolandOfGilead]

Also you still haven't answered my question about if I wasn't here, what would be your read on Fancy

Does post 460 exist, Drew? Does it?

[RolandOfGilead]

Frankly Drew, if this really is a TvT between the two of us, you should be 100x more embarrassed than me, seeing as how you have 100 times as many posts as I do on this site.

[RolandOfGilead]

Ya....but this

What's the fucking difference, Drew?

[RolandOfGilead]

Why should I answer any of your questions when you won't answer any of mine? Why do you get to ask this of me?

[RolandOfGilead]

I don't think it's really fair to ask how I would read FancyPants if the scummiest player in the game wasn't there. My read on him depends on whether he reads scum the same way I read scum, whether he too has the highest suspicion of the player that I too have the most suspicion on. If you weren't in the game then there'd only be one scum in the game and it is likely hidden amongst the two inactives, so his reads list, on which I base my read of FancyPants, wouldn't really mean much.

You just can't take the most important read out of the analysis and expect a good answer on how I'd read him at that point. It doesn't work that way.

Now. I answered one of your questions, so you answer one of mine. Why do you REFUSE to tell me why you hated my read on Gob so much?

[RolandOfGilead]

Everything I have done involving you was to test your reaction, and every step of the way you spewed scum.

I purposely was hand off, as I said, and it wasn't until Solon posted that someone figured out what I was doing.

Since then you have been off to the races doing everything you can do to paint me as scum, and frankly making assumptions about what my intent was......even after I said what my intent was.

So, what do you want me to say? I think you are scum and have done all the heavy lifting for me here......and now you don't want to engage with me with any good faith, even after I admitted there is a small possibility I could be a bit tunneled on you.

Responding to petty insults will not helps things one way or another

Then you need to readjust your strategy, because you are in for a huge shock if you really think that every indicator you're using in this game is true and accurate and that you've correctly identified me as scum. I'll leave that to you to sort out.

But frankly, testing me and all this, come on dude. I know the temptation here is to say, well of course scum just wants to turn it right back around on me to deflect attention! But let's not forget about the fact that

I can document all of it, and I did.

I put every single suspicion I have of you into writing, citing quotes and evidence that is available to everyone to see, not at all reliant on some internal mysticism about my own checks that nobody else is able to verify which you seem to be doing. You can see plain as day everything I have against you, as can everyone else. I am not hiding anything, I'm not trying to be duplicitous at all, I am being as open and forthright as I possibly fucking can be.

[RolandOfGilead]

I see, you took it that way

I think they might be scum either way, but seem locked in on Roland being town.....which obviously I don't get

Kinda like Gif, I feel like they aren't doing much to make things happen....and just letting things happen

I think I'm sitting comfortably with calling them town and then reconsider in limlo. I don't think they behave this way as a wolf at all, I think the only issues I have with them are semantics from them being new to the sites meta.

What am I doing that doesn't align with this site's meta?

[RolandOfGilead]

Me asking for more votes on you have nothing to do with your read on Gob

Then what DOES it have to do with?

[RolandOfGilead]

Me asking for more votes on you have nothing to do with your read on Gob

Then what DOES it have to do with?

Are you going to reply to this?

Two instances you cited a quote of mine on Gob immediately before saying "more votes on Roland", which strongly implies that the reason has to do with what I said about Gob. You can NOT, in good faith, argue anything other than that. So you do have some explaining you need to do.

[RolandOfGilead]

Me asking for more votes on you have nothing to do with your read on Gob

Then what DOES it have to do with?

If a Drew says reaction into the thread, but a Roland keeps ignoring it....


.....Did a Drew actually say it?

You didn't say it. Prove me wrong.

[RolandOfGilead]

Roland, you said your solve is within { Drew, RN, N_M }. How confident are you that all the wolves are in this pool? An X/100 if it requires that

80%.

[RolandOfGilead]

Evasive how?

Gee I dunno man, maybe with shit like

If a Drew says reaction into the thread, but a Roland keeps ignoring it....


.....Did a Drew actually say it?

[RolandOfGilead]

Me asking for more votes on you have nothing to do with your read on Gob

Then what DOES it have to do with?

If a Drew says reaction into the thread, but a Roland keeps ignoring it....


.....Did a Drew actually say it?

You didn't say it. Prove me wrong.

I have said that everything I did, and repeatedly said it, revolving around my initial question to you......my naked vote on you......and my asking for more votes on you......was to see how you would react.

You have not said it ONE. SINGLE. TIME. I am asking you why you choose my quote on Gob as your time to say "more votes on him", I am asking you why you think other people should understand what your own testing is doing, I am asking you where you think this case comes from that is so strong that you think you have the strength of argument to convince everyone else to do it too.

[RolandOfGilead]

Just because you willfully ignore something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist

It doesn't exist. Your explanation for why you cite Gob's quote doesn't exist. The explanation for how other people are supposed to understand your own internal mechanisms doesn't exist.

[RolandOfGilead]

Trivia question. If I say

What I mean is: your frustration here seems genuine. If you were scum, I don't think you'd have minded that I said that you were pretty null at this point in the game. But you seem at least a little pissed off that I said you weren't really moving the game forward. That's some good evidence of your towniness and helps all of us to focus our efforts better.

And then you say

More votes please

Do you think it is safe to assume that there is something in

What I mean is: your frustration here seems genuine. If you were scum, I don't think you'd have minded that I said that you were pretty null at this point in the game. But you seem at least a little pissed off that I said you weren't really moving the game forward. That's some good evidence of your towniness and helps all of us to focus our efforts better.

that inspired you to say

More votes please

?

[RolandOfGilead]

I feel like this is a simple, fair, and straightforward question, and yet you don't want to answer it at all, and I don't understand why. "Why oh why Roland can't you accept that I just kinda scumread you in a general sense and not get bogged down in these details?" Because the details are important to me, that's why. So let's please hash them out.

[RolandOfGilead]

Do you need to hear me say that I acknowledge that you tested me and that I failed your tests and you scum read me because of them?

I acknowledge that you tested me, that I failed your tests, and you scum read me because of it.

I acknowledge that you tested me, that I failed your tests, and you scum read me because of it.

I acknowledge that you tested me, that I failed your tests, and you scum read me because of it.

There. Now you no longer have to pretend like I don't know this and don't have to use this as an excuse to dodge answering the questions I want to ask you. Now can you please answer the question I posed in post 551?

[RolandOfGilead]

What's your reasoning for N_M and RN? A quick blurb if you don't wanna go too deep into it, I don't need much. This is just a stepping stone of a question

@Rolex, I need this please

Stop misnaming me, please.

[RolandOfGilead]

Only if you answer the question

Okay I did write out my answer and I'll answer it right after this, but I REALLY do not appreciate you blackmailing me over a request to call me by the name I want to be called.

[RolandOfGilead]

What's your reasoning for N_M and RN? A quick blurb if you don't wanna go too deep into it, I don't need much. This is just a stepping stone of a question

If you are referring to "my reasoning", you would have to be referring to me saying that they are null reads and that one, if not both, of them are scum. It's process of elimination. I town read KayJayQueue, Salon, you, FancyPants, and GuyInFreezer. I scum read Drew. I don't have enough to come to a firm conclusion on the remaining two, but I have one scum identified and I will find it quite unlikely for another scum to exist in my town pool, so that leads me to say that there's probably 1 scum amongst not mafia / random nurse.

[RolandOfGilead]

I feel like this is a simple, fair, and straightforward question, and yet you don't want to answer it at all, and I don't understand why. "Why oh why Roland can't you accept that I just kinda scumread you in a general sense and not get bogged down in these details?" Because the details are important to me, that's why. So let's please hash them out.

Why do you think I keep asking about how our read would be on Fancy if I wasn't in the equation?

I haven't the slightest idea, dude. I can't read your mind so there's no way I can answer this question.

I don't know how more clearly I can say this.......I was trying to see how you would react

Here it is again in all caps I WAS TRYING TO SEE HOW YOU WOULD REACT.

You are focused on the trees when the forest is right here smacking you in the face

That's great, but can you at least understand why I might think that there was something in my Gob read that you thought was scummy? I get it and accept that you were trying to see how I would react, but can you please just toss me a freakin' bone here and acknowledge that when you say "more votes please" after what I said about Gob, you scumread something with my read on Gob?

I'm doing this because I want to see if it's even worth trying to get through to you, if I can get you to give me even the smallest bit of charity in this conversation.

[RolandOfGilead]

It was a joke, I was always going to stop. I'm not an asshole

Never should have started in the first place.

[RolandOfGilead]

On a very surface level read, I could understand that you thought it had something to do with Gob

But you seem to hyperfocused on that one aspect.....I just don't get it....especially since I came out of that with the wagon on me, not you

Your words and actions have often suggested that perhaps you understood they weren't in alignment and were trying to avoid having to talk about it.

When you said you really vibe with one of my takes, and then suddenly vote for me, you can NOT blame me for thinking "huh, here's a guy that doesn't mean what he says."

It was the same with this business on the Gob take. I genuinely thought that you really did try to force some interpretation of it as scummy and were kinda aware of how flimsy your case was and that that was why you avoided answering the question. I did ask you multiple times and you declined to answer, so again, you really can't blame me for suspecting that you're being evasive if you aren't answering my questions.

I still don't understand why you think "more votes please" would even work, and I'd like an explanation for that too. You are telling me that you delivered a test to me that you crafted yourself, yes? Well, how does anyone else understand how it works, what you were looking for, what specific details of my response scream "scum"? Why would anyone hop on to your case here if your rationale is something that seems to be coming entirely from your own head, from an exam you designed yourself? I don't follow why you thought this would have influenced anyone.

[RolandOfGilead]

I'm gonna have to ask you post-game why you thought everything I did was so scummy since this REALLY doesn't bode well for my future here if I act naturally as town and still somehow get scumread so hard.

[RolandOfGilead]

The last thing I thought I'd have to do is play more carefully as a town-aligned role. lol

[RolandOfGilead]

Random Nurse is only 8 hours away from a prod, 32 away from replacement. I'd rather wait for that at the very least.

[RolandOfGilead]

Regardless, drew is not going out today. So make your vote useful

He's being scumread by me, GuyInFreezer, and FancyPants, he's on the bottom half of Not Scum's list, and we don't know where Random Nurse wants to vote (I imagine Drew casting a vote for him might sway Random Nurse towards voting right back). And the last thing Solon said was that he thinks FancyPants might have a valid point in suspecting Drew. So I don't know why you assume Drew wouldn't be today's elimination.

[RolandOfGilead]

manifesting

And I say that because I refuse to let him die today, he's Town. Consolidate your vote, I'm honestly kinda getting sick of the back and forth between you. It's not going anywhere and locking the conversation doesn't benefit the Town.

[RolandOfGilead]

You had a golden opportunity to point out that Harrison Ford was actually innocent in that movie! Wasted opportunity.

[RolandOfGilead]

Lol.

Anyway I'm sorry I rubbed you the wrong way, kind of an intense day for me here and it probably got the better of me. I can see how my approach comes off as too combative which isn't good for anyone so I'll try to keep that in check.

[RolandOfGilead]

Apologise for the wall but I'm most active between now and the next 7 hours - which seems to conflict with most other people so I'm usually catching up on a few pages.

I for one appreciate the "wall posts". People shouldn't join a forum game if they're not willing to read

But also I went to bed telling myself I'd sleep on my Drew read, and if I was wrong on Drew, I wondered who else it could be, as it seems too easy / convenient for it to just be random nurse / not mafia. You posting reads lists like this gives me townie vibes for sure; I doubt scum would be so willing to so thoroughly document their read progressions like this.

So if it wasn't Drew, then who? At this point I'm getting nervous about Solon who was active early but now is not. I understand the nervousness on KayJayQueue also and I wonder if she's trying to pocket people... I don't know that I've seen her really push a case on her own rather than simply go along with the rest. So my gut tells me if I'm wrong about Drew, I need to look closer at Solon / Kay.

Random Nurse's intro was very uninspiring, to say the least. Just in time to reset the ping timer too. Sigh.

[RolandOfGilead]

Okay I take back what I said about Kay pushing a case. Lol

[RolandOfGilead]

I'm gonna go into more depth about how I feel about you soon Roland, don't worry I'm not gonna blue balls you

Is this still going to happen?

[RolandOfGilead]

btw I've read the case.
I will avoid commenting on it until the man on the spotlight dukes it out first.

He has now duked it out. What are your thoughts?

[RolandOfGilead]

UNVOTE:

I would very much like to hear more from GuyInFreezer today (the answer to my question in particular) and more from Solon too. It would also be great to hear literally anything at all from Random Nurse, but that's not looking likely. I'm definitely willing to hammer if we reach that point.

[RolandOfGilead]

I'm gonna go into more depth about how I feel about you soon Roland, don't worry I'm not gonna blue balls you

Is this still going to happen?

Yes? No? Maybe so?

[RolandOfGilead]

I'm gonna go into more depth about how I feel about you soon Roland, don't worry I'm not gonna blue balls you

Is this still going to happen?

Yes? No? Maybe so?

This isn't in depth by any means, but I'm not sure when I'm gonna wanna sit down and talk details about something I no longer feel is personally relevant but I am a man of my word so if you still want me to go through it just let me know but a brief TL;DR of what I did is that I honestly never really scum-read you (and I think that's clear given my sudden pivot on you, which again I'm shocked nobody suspected me for, cuz that would have helped too), I focused more into the parts of you that were giving me pause to play devil's advocate with own brain + I wanted more pressure on you to see how you handled it as I do think there's a wolf in my top tier of Town. I chose you because you were by far the most active. If you want me to go into depth about things I can, that would likely involve me ISO diving you.

Nah you don't need to go in depth, I just wanted to see what was going on under the hood.

You think there's scum in your "top tier" of town, rather than in your lesser tier of town? (if that exists)

[RolandOfGilead]

It is more that I understand that pretty much everyone else is hard town reading him and won't push a useless vanity wagon, I made my point that I think is valid.....and hope that going forward more people can see things from my perspective.

I am still genuinely confused about this, though. Your case on me was built on a test that you crafted yourself, and all you have shared with everyone else is that I failed this test of yours. None of us have any idea how this test was designed, what exactly you were looking for, what criteria you applied, really anything that would allow us to follow your logic and see how you arrived at your conclusion. I genuinely do not understand why you think this could ever persuade anyone. You did keep saying "more votes please" as if you thought that your case spoke for itself to the rest of town, and frankly, it just doesn't, not in the slightest. Thus my confusion.

I mean do you see the problem here? "I gave Roland a test and he failed it." That's what you have presented to this town as your case. Why would this be convincing to anyone? They don't know the details of your test, what to look for, what counts as "scummy" in your book. So how does that convince anyone?

Your results also seem contingent on my level of experience with this game, which, again, you don't know. And I do find it very interesting that after I've mentioned to you multiple times that I actually have NOT given you a good idea of how much experience I have with this game, you still have shown zero interest in collecting that information. I have not seen any "alright then, Roland, how many games of werewolf DID you play with your guild, how many town of salem games would you say you have played, roughly?" It strikes me as odd that your read is contingent on my experience, but you aren't actually interested in collecting the information to calibrate it properly...you seem content to just make up whatever suits you and roll with that. And THAT is very scummy behavior.

I just hope everyone in this town takes a good, hard look at the difference between the case I made on Drew and the case he made on me. Mine was entirely built on evidence that is clearly available to everyone to see, thoroughly documented, with nothing mysterious or left intentionally obscure. Drew's case on me is built on stuff he decided in his head that he refuses to discuss in detail or to present to everyone else, and it is built on assumptions he refuses to adjust or ask more questions in order to define better. Drew's case is built on things he can control; my case on Drew is built on things I CANNOT control as it is built entirely on what exists and what is in front of us.

[RolandOfGilead]

BTW I feel good about Solon after this most recent contribution of his. My current reads:

Town: KayJayQueue, Solon, JacksonVirgo, FancyPants, GuyInFreezer

Literally just what the fuck: Not_mafia

Scum: Doctor Drew, Random Nurse

[RolandOfGilead]

Here's the difference

I am leaving room for being incorrect about you

You are not leaving room for being incorrect about me.......and every post you make just brings up the same 'gotcha' points you keep trying to make until you think you can get some votes on me

That's not even true, though. Recall that JacksonVirgo asked me how confident in my reads, and I said 80%. I did not say 100%.

I bring these things up because I want you to explain them. You continually decide not to explain them or rationalize them and redirect back towards me.

I am more than happy to explain everything that went on on my end, to dive into the details on your case on me. Was I frustrated that you scumread me? Of course I was; I don't think it is unnatural for anyone to be frustrated when they are read as something that they are not. Was I emotional? Yes. Was I TOO emotional, or emotional in a way that doesn't fit who I am and my natural reaction to things like this? No. You want to shoehorn in some read on my experience and some sort of psychological profile of me to be able to determine whether I was, in fact, "TOO" emotional for it to make sense, but frankly you just do not know me, you know nothing about me, how I act in general, what sorts of things grind my gears, what I would commonly find incredibly frustrating and what wouldn't, so it is indeed a very flawed case, if you ask me.

So there, I have talked through your case on me and gone to some lengths to explain it. It would be terrific if you'd do the same for me.

Until you do that, I see no reason not to move you off my scum read. I am leaving you the opportunity here to explain your actions and convince me not to scumread you, as I have done all along (and I feel like I have been very clear on that point, that you are free to answer these questions and explain your actions, and if you do, that will likely give me good cause to adjust my read on you).

Anyway that's all I have to say about this at this stage of the game. I know people don't want another back-and-forth between us, but I at least want to be forthright about where I am with Drew.

[RolandOfGilead]

Roland, you said your solve is within { Drew, RN, N_M }. How confident are you that all the wolves are in this pool? An X/100 if it requires that

80%.

For reference. Please note that I am quite clearly saying that I admit there could be some error in my reads.

[RolandOfGilead]

You’re never going to believe this: I think you’re both town.

Check back in at 11 for more great reads and a weather report.

Seriously though, I think scum is enjoying watching you guys fight and not saying shit.

How locked in are you in this belief that Random Nurse / Not_Mafia are the scum team?

[RolandOfGilead]

Oh I’m 0% locked that they’re BOTH scum. I think I’m 99% locked one is. I think the other is in my town reads. I’m null on Fancy, no clear read there yet. It’s possible they’re both bad but I highly doubt it.

Which of your town reads do you think is the most likely to actually be scum?

[RolandOfGilead]

Will post later tonight, since I'll be busy for most of today.

Will you be posting soon?

[RolandOfGilead]

A psychic vision of a Not_Mafia/Drew scumteam just flashed before my eyes.

My tinfoil hat theory this morning is that Drew asked me my experience in mafia not because he was setting up an "is this guy scum" test but because he was setting up a "can I get away with framing this guy" test.

[RolandOfGilead]

I mean the two most attractive targets for framing by scum are:

1) absent players
2) inexperienced players

[RolandOfGilead]

@GuyInFreezer

My guess is the Solon vote was to either get him to come out of the woodwork and post more, or you just wanted to see how he would react to it.

So you don't think Drew is scum, you don't think Not_Mafia is scum, we now know that Random Nurse most likely WAS just RL busy since he swapped out. Then who are the two scum in this game, in your mind?

[RolandOfGilead]

(I don’t think I’m wrong on RN, but hey replacement is happening and we have like 6 days so)

Why don't you think you are wrong on Random Nurse?

[RolandOfGilead]

Spoiler: Analysis of Doctor Drew

I hypothesise that Doctor Drew is Town, simply because there are more town than mafia so there's a non-zero chance that I am wrong. With a total of nine players alive, and since I am treating the game as mountainous, the highest possible amount of mafia is three. Meaning that in the worst case scenario this player has a 6/7 chance of being Town making them statistically much more likely to be a member of the town. Because of the dynamics of the game of forum mafia, and because I know for a fact that I am town as well there are a total of 6 slots with 3 maximum mafia in it which would make today limlo, which is seemingly not what people expect so the maximum amount of mafia is probably closer to two. Making the chance a 5/7 making it much more likely that this particular player is a Town. Furthermore, considering the strategic implications of this updated probability, it becomes increasingly apparent that Doctor Drew's alignment as Town is even more probable. In addition to the adjusted ratio, the insight gained from my own alignment as Town further strengthens the argument for Doctor Drew's town alignment. Moreover, when factoring in the implications of the shifting game dynamics and the revised mafia count, it becomes clear that the statistical odds overwhelmingly favor Doctor Drew being Town. Additionally, if we examine the potential impact of this analysis on our decision-making process, it becomes evident that prioritizing the statistically more probable outcome is essential for maximizing the town's chances of success. Furthermore, when considering the potential consequences of misjudging Doctor Drew's alignment in light of the updated probability, it becomes increasingly imperative to align our actions with the statistically more likely scenario, which points to Doctor Drew being Town.

In the off chance that Doctor Drew is not town, it would make it much more likely that my other reads are exponentially more likely to be accurate simply due to the process of elimination and the shrinking amount of mafia in the game. I don't think Doctor Drew is very likely to be mafia with everybody else. The chance of them being mafia is already low, and the chance of any other player is low as well which makes the pairing exponentially more unlikely which gives me hope that Doctor Drew is town. I don't think the mafia would be in the position that Doctor Drew is simply because a 5/7 chance for town to just guess town randomly and out of the blue with no way of truly having a way to deduce is very fair for the wolves at all. In fact it's incredibly unbalanced and benefits the town substantially just by pure chance. This is a post-game discussion but I think we should balance the games out and make the town at most 50% of the game, with the mafia being the other 50% so that nobody can use this argument to unfairly town-read a town for unjustified reasonings. It's too much of a powerful strategy that can be abused. I am going to prove that this argument is correct because the outcome of the game will be exactly as I pictured it using this flawless strategy.

The chances of being wrong on this argument is incredibly low, and considering I just replaced in and have no context about the game. That's an insane advantage to have, enough so that when I catch up this will make the chances EVEN more in my favour. That type of advantage is unheard of yet is in the grasp of every single town player no matter their skills in a game of mafia, or their skills in deduction. Doctor Drew is clearly a player and regardless of their skill (they are very skilled to make it this far) they can also use this line of thinking to add to my perspective so we can find the optimal kill just based of statistical analysis.

Furthermore, if we discuss a more psychological angle, mafia would be much more likely to make arguments based on how players slip up because they wish to mis-eliminate people, meaning I should be confirmed town for using this as an argument as should Doctor Drew be more likely to be town for using this strategy as well. It's almost a trust-tell level of confirmation so much so that this strategy will be incredibly likely to be banned site-wide. Additionally, when examining the potential consequences of allowing such unbalanced strategies to persist unchecked, it becomes evident that taking proactive measures to address these issues is essential for preserving the competitive and strategic nature of the game. Furthermore, considering the potential impact of this argument on future gameplay dynamics, it becomes increasingly apparent that promoting a more balanced and equitable playing field is necessary to ensure that all players have an equal opportunity to utilize strategic thinking and deduction skills effectively. Moreover, when evaluating the long-term sustainability of the game and its appeal to players of all skill levels, it becomes evident that implementing measures to mitigate the potential for unfair advantages is essential for fostering a healthy and competitive gaming environment. Additionally, when considering the potential benefits of promoting fairness and balance in gameplay, it becomes evident that taking proactive steps to address these issues will ultimately enhance the overall experience for all participants.

As an abstract recount of what I have said before, and so that I can move forward with a new line of thinking I will rehash all that has been said so far so that the true power of this argument does not get missed. With a total of nine players alive, and since the game is now mountainous, the highest possible amount of mafia is three. Meaning that in the worst case scenario this player has a 4/7 chance of being Town making them statistically much more likely to be a member of the town. Because of the dynamics of the game of forum mafia, and because I know for a fact that I am town as well there are a total of 6 slots with 3 maximum mafia in it which would make today limlo, which is seemingly not what people expect so the maximum amount of mafia is probably closer to two. Making the chance a 5/7 making it much more likely that this particular player is a Town. Furthermore, considering the strategic implications of this updated probability, it becomes increasingly apparent that Doctor Drew's alignment as Town is even more probable. In addition to the adjusted ratio, the insight gained from my own alignment as Town further strengthens the argument for Doctor Drew's town alignment. Moreover, when factoring in the implications of the shifting game dynamics and the revised mafia count, it becomes clear that the statistical odds overwhelmingly favor Doctor Drew being Town. Additionally, if we examine the potential impact of this analysis on our decision-making process, it becomes evident that prioritizing the statistically more probable outcome is essential for maximizing the town's chances of success. Furthermore, when considering the potential consequences of misjudging Doctor Drew's alignment in light of the updated probability, it becomes increasingly imperative to align our actions with the statistically more likely scenario, which points to Doctor Drew being Town.

In the off chance that Doctor Drew is not town, it would make it much more likely that my other reads are exponentially more likely to be accurate simply due to the process of elimination and the shrinking amount of mafia in the game. I don't think Doctor Drew is very likely to be mafia with everybody else. The chance of them being mafia is already low, and the chance of any other player is low as well which makes the pairing exponentially more unlikely which gives me hope that Doctor Drew is town. I don't think the mafia would be in the position that Doctor Drew is simply because a 5/7 chance for town to just guess town randomly and out of the blue with no way of truly having a way to deduce is very fair for the wolves at all. In fact it's incredibly unbalanced and benefits the town substantially just by pure chance. This is a post-game discussion but I think we should balance the games out and make the town at most 50% of the game, with the mafia being the other 50% so that nobody can use this argument to unfairly town-read a town for unjustified reasonings. It's too much of a powerful strategy that can be abused. I am going to prove that this argument is correct because the outcome of the game will be exactly as I pictured it using this flawless strategy.

The chances of being wrong on this argument is incredibly low, and considering I just replaced in and have no context about the game. That's an insane advantage to have, enough so that when I catch up this will make the chances EVEN more in my favour. That type of advantage is unheard of yet is in the grasp of every single town player no matter their skills in a game of mafia, or their skills in deduction. Doctor Drew is clearly a player and regardless of their skill (they are very skilled to make it this far) they can also use this line of thinking to add to my perspective so we can find the optimal kill just based of statistical analysis.

That was 1578 words. 78 words of overkill!

[RolandOfGilead]

That’s not really a helpful answer to your case in my eyes. My experience with newbies is that they tend to over read everything and mistrust easily.
In your favor is that you’re mostly reading the same as me, but arrogance (hubris?) tells me no newbie would townread as assuredly and in lockstep with me.
I don’t know. Let me sleep and reassess I suppose.

You make me want to unvote and vote NM though.

Frankly I think people in this game are putting far, far too much stock into reads based on an assumption of how good at this game you think the other person is. You don't know their experience, how skilled they might be at being able to figure out who is telling the truth and who is full of shit. I mean a lot of us spend our entire lives sorting out these things. These are just weirdly personal, borderline insulting sorts of takes, in my opinion.

[RolandOfGilead]

To be clear, I'm not saying I'm insulted. I'm just trying to highlight why a person might be, considering what a read like this is really saying.

[RolandOfGilead]

@Snow, when can we expect your take on the game and your scum reads and such?

[RolandOfGilead]

I’d vote but that would mean the day ends

I thought Snow and Not Mafia were both at 3 votes?

[RolandOfGilead]

Jackson meme slid off his vote on Snow and then just put it back. His snow vote was 3, not 4.

[RolandOfGilead]

However I for one don't feel like waiting forever and ever for Snow to contribute meaningfully to this game so I'll go ahead and apply that pressure. This feels like a good vote anyway.

VOTE: Snow

This is 1 vote shy of a hammer.

[RolandOfGilead]

@Snow, when can we expect your take on the game and your scum reads and such?

4-5 hrs. returning from work. you can go ahead and hammer me if you feel so based on my predecessor's actions. just do it quickly.

Have you read any of the game at all? Any first impressions?

[RolandOfGilead]

UNVOTE:

[RolandOfGilead]

Why would a guy sub into a game just to say "eh you can go ahead and hammer me"?

[RolandOfGilead]

Snow is saying we have it right and they'd rather not read the whole thread. Just put them out of their misery.

Yeah that's my theory too.

You all can speculate on whether I'm faking you out by asking this question, but I am genuinely asking: can mafia talk to each other privately during the day?

[RolandOfGilead]

I'm still going to hold my vote for now, for reasons I will disclose later.

[RolandOfGilead]

But hammering me without giving a chance to read and react would give town info.

Is this a slip?

[RolandOfGilead]

The much longer post just 6 minutes after the much shorter one suggests a post that was very carefully curated.

[RolandOfGilead]

I found the Roland read bit little strange.

Roland – liked his stile the most. Agree with many of his points. But:

So let's go over few of these real quick.

- he criticized Solon for being a troll, but did not seem to do the same with GiF for her vig claim;

Did the context of both situations look same to you?

- he criticized Solon for pushing a train on GiF (which I treat as moving the game forward to too quickly, see 54), and at the same time attacked Gob ("that's also an incredibly effective scum strategy to just troll all game long and give yourself an excuse to not move the game forward", see 42). He also said at 59: "I mean, it's page 1, who cares? This is a common occurrence in the game for people to say things that don't push the game forward." I don’t think that 42, 54 and 59 and Roland’s treatment of this Gob/Solon/GiF affair are consistent.

Again, did the context of those situations look same to you for them to have to warrant consistent treatments?

- he said in 228 that he saw more and more town!Solon over their interaction. Which was not my reading of their exchange.

Did the bit about the reaction test factor into this when you typed this?

- he said Gob could not be credited for pushing the game and did not deserve a town read, but over time he called Gob as town (478).

The post Roland said Gob didn't deserve a townread was 196, and the bits he mentioned that gob didn't move the game forward was before that.
That's quite a post gap between these and 478, ain't it?

So, let me ask you the real question here.
You just clicked ISO for Roland and just skimmed through that without context, didn't you?

You're good at this, GIF

[RolandOfGilead]

The much longer post just 6 minutes after the much shorter one suggests a post that was very carefully curated.

Means nothing, I often curate my own posts regardless of alignment.

When you joined this game, you gave your thoughts as you read through the game. You didn't take a full day to get your bearings. You didn't need time to prepare. I don't think these two situations align.

[RolandOfGilead]

I'm still going to hold my vote for now, for reasons I will disclose later.

My reason is that I thought we'd get a good sense of who he was teamed with by allowing him to post, rather than leaving him one vote away from death and letting someone else jump in and end him before we got that information.

It's debatable whether we can glean anything from scum posts, but, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

I've seen enough.

VOTE: Snow

[RolandOfGilead]

I just don't buy Snow's reads. The consensus amongst most of us here is that it seems hard to find someone who is scummy. A lot of us seem to have arrived at this place of thinking that the people who seem to be contributing regularly here are probably just town. We each seem to have our own theory on which one here is the "deep wolf", but it still seems like, to most of us, we find most people here to be quite towny, and we feel like we're probably getting fooled by something (or someone).

Contrast that with Snow's reads list where he only calls 2 people "townish", he calls not mafia "unclear" which is fine, but then the remaining 5 of us are some combination of controversial / suspicious / scummy. He has somehow arrived at reasons to be skeptical of 5 of us, whereas I think pretty much everyone here kinda struggles to even find 2.

Of course scum is going to cast doubt on a whole bunch of people. One of the things I was going to comment on is...do you notice how little chaos there is in this game? Everyone kinda has their own pet theory, but otherwise, it sure doesn't seem like anyone is really trying to toss a grenade into things and really mess with everyone's minds. This post is the first post I've seen that actually kinda tries to do that in this game.

I will be really surprised if Snow does not flip scum.

[RolandOfGilead]

When you joined this game, you gave your thoughts as you read through the game. You didn't take a full day to get your bearings. You didn't need time to prepare. I don't think these two situations align.

And that’s incredibly rare for me, I’ve always done shitposting while I make a spoilered analysis post

Then consider also how quickly you made your contributions, compared to Snow. Snow joined at 4 PM yesterday, checked in with us at 9 PM, didn't give us anything of meaning until 4 PM today, nearly 24 hours after he joined and 19 hours after he checked in on the game and made it known that he was fully aware that he was in this game now. That just seems like the amount of time you'd take if you wanted to check in with your scum buddy and craft up a strategy on what one should say when making one's entrance to the game. It's suspicious.

[RolandOfGilead]

Another thought: I don't really see how Snow townreads FancyPants and scumreads me, when FancyPants has largely sheeped my own case on Drew. A not-insignificant amount of FancyPants' efforts here have echoed my own thoughts on Drew, so it's weird to me that the one who aligns with the original view gets to be townread, but the one who originated that read in the first place is somehow scum.

[RolandOfGilead]

@Not_Mafia

Why do you want Snow eliminated?

[RolandOfGilead]

I think Snow has earned a stay of execution at the very least.

I'd much prefer a Not_Mafia elimination as that slot is never going to be readable for anyone, and will be a liability with the ever-present possiblity of a lolhammer whenever someone is one vote from the chop.

That's fine with me. Frankly I feel like I am playing like shit right now.

[RolandOfGilead]

UNVOTE:

[RolandOfGilead]

Yeah but right now I am typing out a case and then thinking "come on man, that's a shitty case and you know it". I'm getting nowhere.

[RolandOfGilead]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

This is 1 vote away from elimination. (And Not_Mafia has already voted himself so there's no danger of a meme hammer here)

[RolandOfGilead]

I'm wary of the fact that Snow has come in and done a reasonable job of catching-up, and not one person apart from me has an issue with his elimination, and many are actually jumping on him quite unfairly.

I think maybe I was too quick to judge him.

Honestly I'm really hung up on why he said we could just go ahead and vote him out, before he said any of this. The more I think about it, the less I think it's something scum says.

[RolandOfGilead]

But is there support for a lime? Or do you prefer a lemon in this case

[RolandOfGilead]

I generally go with my first instinct, which is that RN is scum......

Well, based on your first instinct track record in this game, this is the strongest sign yet that RN is actually town.

[RolandOfGilead]

I know I've waffled a bit tonight. I laid down some thoughts I had about Snow's arguments and realized that even I was not all that convinced by them, so I can understand why nobody else would be.

Although Snow's arguments were definitely inconsistent, I too have made arguments that are inconsistent. This game quickly becomes really complicated and I think maybe people conflate "you screwed up the facts!" with "you are scum!", maybe because you might believe scum want to distort the truth and such, but I also tend to think you'd have to kinda be a complete idiot as scum to just outright lie about stuff and call red blue and think you can get away with it and such. GIF obviously has a good point about how the context of my scumread on Gob was different from my non-scumread of GIF, but not fully grasping a context doesn't make a person evil.

I worry a little that we are all just plowing snow when he might not have had a real fair chance at catching up with the game. Haha, get it, plowing snow, snow, plow, hahaha get it haha okay I'll shut up.

Snow has at least given me SOME reason to think he's town. There's still plenty there to think he's scum too, but I contrast this with Not_Mafia who has given me ZERO reason to think he's town. I don't know how anyone can argue with a straight face that his reads list kinda makes sense when he listed himself as the scummiest person on there, and then proceeded to vote for himself. He is either open-wolfing or frankly we just rolled a really terrible teammate and them's the brakes and we just have to live with that, but I really just don't see a good path forward keeping him in this game if this is honestly how he's going to contribute to it.

That's why at this stage I prefer a Not_Mafia lim. Feel free to convince me otherwise.

[RolandOfGilead]

I generally go with my first instinct, which is that RN is scum......

Well, based on your first instinct track record in this game, this is the strongest sign yet that RN is actually town.

I don't remember your flip, have you been confirmed as town?

The snark is strong with this one.

[RolandOfGilead]

...or frankly we just rolled a really terrible teammate and them's the brakes and we just have to live with that

To better clarify what I mean here, I mean that we have to live with burning a flip on him. I for one have zero interest in dealing with this shit moving forward. If we mislimmed a town, that's still not as bad to me as keeping a troll in the game.

[RolandOfGilead]

You are welcome to go with the snow lim if you like. I'll even join you if that's what it takes to break you out of this.

[RolandOfGilead]

BTW we really ought to thank each other for the free doctoring we've given each other tonight. No way scum kills either of us at this point.

[RolandOfGilead]

BTW, when I voted for Snow, and I left not mafia the opportunity to show up and finish him off, what the hell was I thinking?

[RolandOfGilead]

I know longer will go with a NM lim

Drew, it's "no"! Duh!!11

[RolandOfGilead]

You are welcome to go with the snow lim if you like. I'll even join you if that's what it takes to break you out of this.

I am already on Snow, come join

Okay.

VOTE: Snow

BTW we really ought to thank each other for the free doctoring we've given each other tonight. No way scum kills either of us at this point.

Explain this?
[/quote]

You can figure that one out yourself.

[RolandOfGilead]

Drew might have manipulated me into killing a townie, but if I don't vote here, he crucifies me. Well played if you really are scum, Drew, but a snow lim is not NOT what I want, so I'm frankly fine with this.

[RolandOfGilead]

Drew, you should really ask yourself this: if I really were scum, why the hell would I go after YOU?

You have a bajillion posts on this site. You've for sure played this game a lot longer than I have. I have, as of this post, 165. And you honestly think I'm fucking crazy and stupid enough to just pick a fight with a guy who has a ton more experience than I have at this game, instead of just sitting back and trying not to draw any attention to myself? Like how dumb do I have to be to do that? To embark on this brilliant play to escape detection by picking a huge fight with one of the most experienced people in the game, who oh by the way already has a suspicion of me.

Why would I need to argue that YOU were scum to deflect your attention from me? Why wouldn't I just defend myself and NOT stir up a fucking hornet's nest by suspecting you back? How do my actions as scum make any sense whatsoever here?

The only thing that logically explains it is that I do, in fact, think you are scum. There's no good explanation for my actions otherwise.

[RolandOfGilead]

Drew might have manipulated me into killing a townie, but if I don't vote here, he crucifies me. Well played if you really are scum, Drew, but a snow lim is not NOT what I want, so I'm frankly fine with this.

Wut????

I am the only one scum reading you.

If anything this makes me want to unvote snow

UNVOTE:

Why does that matter, that you're the only one suspecting me? I trust that people have powers of persuasion in this game.

[RolandOfGilead]

So Roland/Snow scum team confirmed.

Oops all first instinct

Pre Edit: Nice setup there for when you are wrong

I know longer will go with a NM lim

So who is my partner now?

[RolandOfGilead]

If that's how you want to frame it, sure.

It's 1 am here, I sure hope that leaving my scum partner at 1 vote while I go unconscious for 7 hours and while another guy who has strongly implied he will finish snow off is around here and likely to pull the trigger does not somehow go terribly wrong!

[RolandOfGilead]

Drew might have manipulated me into killing a townie, but if I don't vote here, he crucifies me. Well played if you really are scum, Drew, but a snow lim is not NOT what I want, so I'm frankly fine with this.

Wut????

I am the only one scum reading you.

If anything this makes me want to unvote snow

UNVOTE:

Why does that matter, that you're the only one suspecting me? I trust that people have powers of persuasion in this game.

What sort of influence do I have that leads to your 'crucifiction'?

Your ten thousand post count. It's gotta count for something. Don't be all coy with me and act like it doesn't.

Good night.

[RolandOfGilead]

If that's how you want to frame it, sure.

It's 1 am here, I sure hope that leaving my scum partner at 1 vote while I go unconscious for 7 hours and while another guy who has strongly implied he will finish snow off is around here and likely to pull the trigger does not somehow go terribly wrong!

You do need some help with math

Can you not be rude and just tell me what I supposedly got wrong?

[RolandOfGilead]

If you're going to ride my ass no matter what I do, then I'm going for the thing I want anyway.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[RolandOfGilead]

If Not Mafia flips town, I will be voting for myself tomorrow.

I've been outdueled by Drew at this point and I have no chance of clearing my name while I'm alive. You need to see my alignment to truly see this is a waste of time and effort. HE needs to see it, if he's actually town. There should only be 2 scum in this game and you can take 2 mis-eliminations. My flip certainly seems to be the most informative you could make tomorrow so I'm all in favor of it.

I just don't have that game under my belt here where I can show you that me being frustrated and getting emotional is something I do when I'm wrongly accused of guilt. I get it, you don't trust me and you rely on things like that, I understand.

I am just truly at a loss on how to get through to you. More than one of you is actually arguing that Snow is my teammate, despite me having pushed Snow to E-1 yesterday and leaving him there until someone ELSE had to unvote, while we were all aware that Not Mafia clearly intended to swoop in at any given moment and hammer. I have said all day long how I support eliminating both Snow and Not Mafia and you seriously think I chose my teammate, casting a vote that legitimately could have gotten him killed, when I could have otherwise just voted Not Mafia and avoided the risk. I tried to explain how silly this theory is to you guys and you still don't see it, so I fucking give up, I am out of arguments if something THAT clear still doesn't matter to you.

At this point you just want cold, hard facts, so I'll deliver that to you with my dead body.

[RolandOfGilead]

Hell, do you want it today? Why not! I'd appreciate a chance at clearing my name by flipping Not Mafia (there's a good chance he is scum) but if you guys really can't get past me, I'll vote Roland too.

[RolandOfGilead]

I saw that you leaving your vote on Snow when you did meant you perhaps weren't partnered, but then the fact you switched so soon after I defended Snow pricked my ears up a bit.

Your AtE game is strong though, I'll give you that. i do truly believe you are town in this moment.

What's ate? I assume you're not referring to what I did with my breakfast.

[RolandOfGilead]

I saw that you leaving your vote on Snow when you did meant you perhaps weren't partnered, but then the fact you switched so soon after I defended Snow pricked my ears up a bit.

I switched when he was at E-2, not E-1.

See the fact that it means nothing to you that I EVER put him at E-1 is why I just fucking give up. That, of all things, should make it obvious I'm not partnered, and yet it still doesn't convince anyone.

I challenge you to show me a more convincing case of non-partnership

in this entire fucking game

than a guy putting another guy at E-1 when someone else intended to swoop in and finish the job at any given moment. This isn't a rhetorical challenge; I actually want you to answer.

[RolandOfGilead]

idk why you’re flipping out like that when I have no intention to let that through.

You're one vote. How do you plan on not "letting that through"?

[RolandOfGilead]

idk why you’re flipping out like that when I have no intention to let that through.

You're one vote. How do you plan on not "letting that through"?

If it means anything, I also wouldn’t be voting you. I’m sure you knew that though.

I do. Thank you for seeing what I thought was a lot more obvious than it is, apparently.

[RolandOfGilead]

Bonk them

Can you be more specific? I know you're on the phone, so, whenever you aren't is fine...

[RolandOfGilead]

Right now I don't believe you are partnered with Snow

Your actions here clearly indicate otherwise. You keep on making arguments that I am, so I'm going to keep addressing those arguments and keep on convincing you of the truth until you finally get it.

so you can calm down.

Wow, is that ever the wrong thing to ever say to someone who is frustrated. Especially without giving them the space to explain their frustrations.

If you thought someone else would put them at E-1 then you would miss out on the valuable towncred.

I didn't, and the fact that both GuyInFreezer and KayJayQueue immediately said "whoa, let's maybe not do that, yeah?" proves that I was right to assume that I was the only one who was probably going to be putting him at E-1 in that case. I was well aware that Not Mafia could cast the hammer vote in that moment, and I didn't care, because at that moment he seemed like the best choice to me.

As I said, I thought it indicated that you most likely weren't partners, but when you then switch and vote Not_Mafia after my defence of Snow, then understand that from my perspective you could have taken a calculated gamble in doing what you did, which would explain your frustration at being suspected of being partners with Snow despite the gamble having paid off.

How on earth can I gamble on the prospect of someone else suddenly coming in and making a case on why I should not vote for Solon as my out? How on earth could I count on that happening? When you posted when you did, you hadn't said anything for the past 13 hours, and you have habitually just vanished for indeterminate stretches of time, and you are seriously arguing that part of my gamble was made in the hopes that you would show up and say "hey let's maybe not vote Snow" as my recourse to back off this vote? I mean this theory is just straight-up terrible.

I have seen examples of scum bussing in much more unlikely situations than this.

I'm sorry but I just do not believe you. Show me one. Show me a more unlikely situation, especially one in which the decision actually made some tactical sense.

[RolandOfGilead]

Holy shit I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get this site to put a single space between quote and text.

[RolandOfGilead]

If that's how you want to frame it, sure.

It's 1 am here, I sure hope that leaving my scum partner at 1 vote while I go unconscious for 7 hours and while another guy who has strongly implied he will finish snow off is around here and likely to pull the trigger does not somehow go terribly wrong!

You do need some help with math

Can you not be rude and just tell me what I supposedly got wrong?

You got the math wrong just as you pointed out how I had a spelling mistake

When a person says "you need help with math", they are making it personal when they insert the "you". My comment was on the comment; yours is about me, the person sitting in the Roland slot.

I apologize for what I said earlier when I said you, in particular, should be embarrassed about me flipping scum as I clearly crossed the line there. It's just you have done so too at this point.

[RolandOfGilead]

The more I think about it, the more I kinda want to be the one who gets limmed today.

I keep thinking about why Drew would want to focus so hard on one person, since if he actually got his way and I was eliminated, when I flip town, he's obviously going to look real bad. How does he deal with that? But, in this micro game, you only get two mis-eliminations, and then the next is a scum victory. He clearly seems to be queueing me up for a day TWO elimination, especially when he says stuff like

As I stated, I always hate limming a lurker on D1, but the way RN popped into the thread was bad(and thinking about it more, mention Hu Tao could definitely have been a dumb tell), so I was definitely ok with him being the lim. Snow actually has out effort in at least, but I am always weary when someone really towns it up when they repp in, so I am still fine with an RN lim.

I don't like limming NM, but I definitely get it, if it were a bigger game I would be totally fine with it, but would hate basically a policy lim taking out a townie in a game this size.

Problem is, I am still ok with a Roland lim, but am definitely in the minority there lol.

And GiF still is pinging me weird, but not sure I could(or even would want to) push them at this point.

Basically I am reluctantly fine with the lime being snow or NM

So there's a big part of me that wants to upset the order of things in which he wants them to happen and immediately force you all to redirect your energies to more useful places.

VOTE: Roland

[RolandOfGilead]

Oh, to follow that thought to completion, his game plan is then, day 1, just get some easy lurky target, day 2, get this person he's been pressing all game long, and then on the final day, he probably figures that's intense no matter what and so even if he's put himself in a tight spot, he knows how to fight. Or at the very worst, he goes down, but he knows he's got a teammate left anyway and they should be fine.

If he's scum, I've messed up his plan something grand, and if he's town, this immediately restores his energies to more fruitful places, so I'm all in favor of this.

[RolandOfGilead]

You're having a temper tantrum. Take a break from the game and come back tomorrow renewed and refreshed.

That is both incredibly condescending and false.

This is a tactical decision on my part. As I explained, my elimination helps town either way, either by putting the pressure on who I think is scum or by redirecting efforts to be more useful.

[RolandOfGilead]

Right now I don't believe you are partnered with Snow

Your actions here clearly indicate otherwise. You keep on making arguments that I am, so I'm going to keep addressing those arguments and keep on convincing you of the truth until you finally get it.

so you can calm down.

Wow, is that ever the wrong thing to ever say to someone who is frustrated. Especially without giving them the space to explain their frustrations.

If you thought someone else would put them at E-1 then you would miss out on the valuable towncred.

I didn't, and the fact that both GuyInFreezer and KayJayQueue immediately said "whoa, let's maybe not do that, yeah?" proves that I was right to assume that I was the only one who was probably going to be putting him at E-1 in that case. I was well aware that Not Mafia could cast the hammer vote in that moment, and I didn't care, because at that moment he seemed like the best choice to me.

As I said, I thought it indicated that you most likely weren't partners, but when you then switch and vote Not_Mafia after my defence of Snow, then understand that from my perspective you could have taken a calculated gamble in doing what you did, which would explain your frustration at being suspected of being partners with Snow despite the gamble having paid off.

How on earth can I gamble on the prospect of someone else suddenly coming in and making a case on why I should not vote for Solon as my out? How on earth could I count on that happening? When you posted when you did, you hadn't said anything for the past 13 hours, and you have habitually just vanished for indeterminate stretches of time, and you are seriously arguing that part of my gamble was made in the hopes that you would show up and say "hey let's maybe not vote Snow" as my recourse to back off this vote? I mean this theory is just straight-up terrible.

I have seen examples of scum bussing in much more unlikely situations than this.

I'm sorry but I just do not believe you. Show me one. Show me a more unlikely situation, especially one in which the decision actually made some tactical sense.

@Solon

Are you going to address any of this?

[RolandOfGilead]

You're having a temper tantrum. Take a break from the game and come back tomorrow renewed and refreshed.

That is both incredibly condescending and false.

This is a tactical decision on my part. As I explained, my elimination helps town either way, either by putting the pressure on who I think is scum or by redirecting efforts to be more useful.

It would be more useful if you didn't resist my efforts to redirect onto a player who might actually flip scum.

I disagree. I think my own flip is more useful.

[RolandOfGilead]

Fair enough.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Not_Mafia