Newbie 807 - Game Over

[ChannelDelibird]

Hi everyone, I'm CDB and I'm the IC player for this game. I'm here to help as well as play, so if you have any questions I'll answer them to the best of my ability (but any questions about the particular rules, your role, etc. should go to the mod), and I'll do my best to give you guys advice during the game. But of course I'm here to win, and remember that I have as much chance of being scum as the rest of you (of course, I'm not )

So let's get things started with a

Random Vote: CancerBottle

.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm glad I woke up when I did! It would have sucked to get here late!

Anyway, onto the voting.

Random Vote: Kichirou

FoS: ChannelDelibird

The random vote is common practice here, but I am curious as to the FoS (Finger of Suspicion) you've given me. Is that random too, or was there something in my first post you found scummy?

[ChannelDelibird]

The explanation about random voting was as much for the benefit of all the newbies as it was for you in particular (the fact that you random voted kinda gave your knowledge of it away ), but I'm curious - if you found my comment genuinely suspicious, why bother with a random vote at all?

Regarding the quote itself, I just wanted to make sure that nobody gets the wrong impression that the IC is some kind of specifically-town adviser, that they have to look at me just like any other player, and the assurance that I'm not scum was just me joking around. If you'd like I can go and find a couple of newbie games where I've said that as town.

[ChannelDelibird]

I did not find it suspicious enough to warrant a vote, therefore I simply cast FoS, but, should you do anything else that might make me suspect you, I shall change my vote to you.

Weird as it may seem for me to encourage you to vote for me, it's important to say that the vote is the most important tool available to the town. It exerts pressure, pressure that a FoS just doesn't have the gravitas to exert, and it helps define the direction of the game. There's no need to be cautious at this stage, because we have a margin of error - one vote isn't going to lynch anyone. And surely a minor suspicion is worth pursuing more than a random target?

Nah, you don't have to link me, as you could be a scum, therefore, if someone pointed out what you said, you could simply link them to old games to throw them off your trail. Don't get me wrong, I'm not sure if you are or are not scum, I was simply acting on what I believe should be done.

I don't agree with your logic here. Evidence of a player's past behaviour as scum or town can help people to judge on their alignment in current games depending on whether they behave the same or differently than in the past. Are you suggesting that I would deliberately do something that might be suspicious as town in the past so that I could do it again as scum and be able to give evidence that it's something I do as town?

[ChannelDelibird]

Regarding the quote itself, I just wanted to make sure that nobody gets the wrong impression that the IC is some kind of specifically-town adviser, that they have to look at me just like any other player, and the assurance that I'm not scum was just me joking around. If you'd like I can go and find a couple of newbie games where I've said that as town.

Sure, I'd like to see those newbie games.

OK then. I used to, as an IC, start my first posts by posting three lessons for the newbies, and always added and

n

th rule at the bottom. See these games, in which I was town (link takes you straight to the post in question):

viewtopic.php?p=501949#501949

viewtopic.php?p=531437#531437

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 21#620321]

That should get my point across.

--------------------------------

This is a bit of a reach, don't you think? I mean, I don't see Kard suggesting that you have deliberately played scummy as town in a previous game, only to be able to cite that playstyle in other games.

You don't see him doing that? A couple of posts before the above quote, he responded to me asking him if he was suggesting that, and he said:

I do indeed believe you could have deliberately done that, but I could be(and most likely am) wrong. I will just have to wait to find out.

So Kard, I would like to make it clear that I consider it bad form to play deliberately badly in some games to try and get some benefit in a future game. I play each game to the best of my ability.

Indeed, besides it's possible that he is a scum, but he did not deliberately play that way in previous games, so he's using this to his advantage. Or maybe I'm looking to much into this; either way, I'm sure I'm wrong somehow.

I know I'm biased in this case, but I think you're reading too much into it. Which is tempting - it's day 1, there's not a lot to go on - but not really important.

I have to disagree with this. I think metas can be very useful, they should just be used with caution. People's playstyles can change drastically between games as they learn and develop their own style. I often look at people's past games and meta, although I don't think I can do that with many people this game, with all you newbies.

This is true, but though this is probably the wrong kind of game to bring it up, the greatest change in playstyle is usually in a player's first few games. Having been here a lot longer, my playstyle has become pretty standardised, I think.

However, I don't think it's really fair of me to make a big thing out of my meta in this game when the majority of players here don't have a meta yet. So, I will try to ignore it in this game and just respond to things based on this game alone.

Hmm, who hasn't posted so far? Just bgg1996? I wonder if s/he's lurking, or just not here?

Don't worry, the pace is a little slower than that yet. Lurking isn't usually considered until someone doesn't post for at least three days or so. (On the other hand, "active lurking" is something you can look out for - when someone posts just enough to look active but isn't actually saying anything)

---------------------

bgg - the mod will usually only accept votes in the format "Vote: Player" (no quotes). Welcome to the game. Is your vote a random one?

[ChannelDelibird]

Gah, stupid URL tags. X_X

Tag fixed - Mod.

[ChannelDelibird]

CDB, I did not outright say "I think you did that on purpose" I said there was a possibility that played like that, knowing you could use that to your advantage later.

I know. I tried to word my post to make it clear that I was responding to the possibility, rather than an outright accusation.

[ChannelDelibird]

This is a bit of a reach, don't you think? I mean, I don't see Kard suggesting that you have deliberately played scummy as town in a previous game, only to be able to cite that playstyle in other games.

You don't see him doing that? A couple of posts before the above quote, he responded to me asking him if he was suggesting that, and he said:

Really? You put the meta tactic out there first. Which, for reasons already stated in this thread, is dubious. Yet, you frame Kard's suspicions with this dubious tactic, thus weakening his suspicions.

I mentioned the meta "tactic" of playing suboptimally in the past to gain an advantage in the future because I thought that was what he was implying in his post. Let's take another look at that post:

Nah, you don't have to link me, as you could be a scum, therefore, if someone pointed out what you said, you could simply link them to old games to throw them off your trail.

Maybe I've misinterpreted here. I thought this was suggesting that I might have

planned

my behaviour as town in the past so that I could engineer some future advantage as scum (mainly the phrase "throw them off your trail" was what put that in my mind). But I guess it could just mean that in this game particularly I might be scum and I am deliberately throwing in things I do as town to make me look town. Is that what you meant by this post, Kard?

If that

is

the correct interpretation, firstly, my apologies, and secondly, I'm not really sure what the point is you're trying to make. Surely the whole point of being scum is trying to do things that make you look town, but those things make you look town because they're normally done by town. So it's unfair to suggest that I might be scum because I'm doing something I normally do as town, because it suggests I'm town as much (if not more) than it suggests I'm scum. Scumhunting is about looking for things that are more likely to come from scum than they are from town, and I don't think you can make that argument here.

Hope that's clear.

[ChannelDelibird]

The problem I have with your interpretations is they undermine Kard's suspicions by insinuating his reasoning is silly and unreasonable, which it isn't. If you are scum, then this would provide you a base on which to rally a lynch on him later in the game.

I'm not suggesting you're doing things you'd normally do as town, I'm suggesting you're trying to attribute a line of thought that is scummy to another player, thus making that player look scummy.

And attributing scummy reasoning to another player, especially when it isn't there, is scummy. If that makes any sense.

This point might be stronger if I was voting for Kard right now, but I'm not. My motivation for discussing this in the first place was a) to defend myself against a FoS and b) to defend my integrity as a player my making it clear I wouldn't intentionally play any less than my best game in past games in order to gain an advantage now.

You say you don't think Kard's reasoning is unreasonable,

why

? I just made a post about why I felt, whether or not I misinterpreted his post, the FoS was unfair. Is my logic flawed?

[ChannelDelibird]

EBWOP: This point might be stronger if I was voting for Kard right now, but I'm not. My motivation for discussing this in the first place was a) to defend myself against a FoS and b) to defend my integrity as a player my making it clear I wouldn't intentionally play any less than my best game in past games in order to gain an advantage now...

rather than trying to put suspicion on Kard.

[ChannelDelibird]

No need to worry about warning us of absences that short, Kard. Nobody expects 24-hour access. Generally, we only need to know if your absence is measured in days.

crazypianist, FatedLunar, dothefandango and FoShizzle:

what do you think of the fact that I currently have three votes?

[ChannelDelibird]

What is your gut telling you, if you don't mind sharing?

I don't have any reason behind it, but the one that is the most talkative at first usually is antsy, so I just decided to go with what I thought at the time.

As an IC, it's my job to talk as much as possible, particularly at the start of the game, in order to help you guys into the rhythm of the game. I think that supersedes the 'antsy' idea.

[ChannelDelibird]

Then what about you, bgg1996? Why did you vote for CBD?

His vote seemed suspicious.
Besides, it's the first round.

Suspicious in what way?

[ChannelDelibird]

It's CDB, CancerBottle, not CBD. Sorry for the pedantry.

I'm a little distressed that CB is talking enthusiastically about the possibility of someone 'forcing' me to claim, considering that there's very little, if any, evidence against me that I can see. The fact that he then moved his vote to Bgg does not sit well with me either - though I agree that it would be good to hear an elaboration from Bgg I don't like that CB is playing both sides of my wagon.

Vote stands.

[ChannelDelibird]

Haven't got time to go through your whole post, Snow White (welcome to the game!), but CP is right, you did contradict yourself.

First you said you were hoping to make up for joining late by helping town win. <- i.e., you said you were pro town. Then you said that you found my saying "of course, I'm [town] " suspicious. So do you find it scummy to mention that you are pro-town, and if so, why did you do just that?

I'll catch up on the rest tomorrow.

[ChannelDelibird]

CDB's tunnelling of Kard is suspicious. If i had been in the game earlier i would have also wondered about

of course im not

too. And i think Kard is entitled to ask questions as questions is what put pressure on pepole. As a player he has a right to ask questions.

CBD appears innocent because he has not a vote on Kard. But equally this could be WIFOM. And yet you continue to tunnel CancerBottle for his additional questions. You seem rather defensive CBD but i think this is just because your an IC and trying to get conversation started for the minute.

You can't accuse me of tunneling

both

Kard and CB, that doesn't make any sense. Do you think I should have been questioning somebody else in particular?

Im not going to get into the whole Metagaming concept because my basic concept is that it is lying and adjusting your play to make you unpredictable for future games. Anyone can do it. And for an innocent basing it on someone, you can be horribly wrong.

I don't like to harp on about this, but I really want to make this absolutely clear:

I take quite personally the suggestion that I might deliberately play less than my best in a game in order to gain an advantage in some other game in the future

. I think that's bad sportsmanship and would show a lack of respect to the players in those games and the moderators as well. I'm happy for us to ignore metas in a newbie game, where it's only the ICs and SEs who actually have them, but I will simply not accept that accusation against my character.

CDB has 3 votes on him. 2of the people have been fading from view and i think they had just bandwagoned to get things moving. Neither of them have had much explainations to their votes and i would like an explaination from Kirichou's "CDB's vote was random" and bgg1996 "he's suspicious" before i vote for either one of them. They could have been plain old townies who just got bored after trying to rush the game along.

Bandwagoning to get things moving, I would argue, is not a scum tell, because getting things moving is a good reason to bandwagon. The issue is whether someone makes a bandwagon vote for bad reasons, which I think you're starting to get at here.

lol. thanks for the welcome, and yes, i do see it now as a contradication. Laughing

My bad. XD

Yes, i will admit that i think it is generally a scummy thing to do, but it doesnt qualify a vote. I dont think i ever said that it did but it does warrant questions to be raised.

I can only say i meant my first post to be interpreted to be as friendly as possible and i made it before i started re-reading the topic and started joting down notes.

Ordinarily i would have found someone saying "but of course im not" suspicious. But i do understand now where i similarily went wrong. My first post a kinda brief self introduction was abstracted from the second one which was meant to be the serious one. And this is all i can say in my defense.

So I assume you are no longer suspicious of my "of course" quote, now that you realise that the thought process (wanting to be friendly in your first post) is reasonable?

I suppose one could look at it that way, but sorry, I only wanted to put it behind us because I didn't mean for it to escalate to that level. I didn't expect my FoS to turn into a 3 page discussion.

OMGUS Vote: crazypianist1116

Why did you make this vote, Kard? If you're only voting him because he voted for you, what does that achieve? This is very strange.

I'll wait until hearing CDB's analysis tomorrow until casting another vote.

Why?

Snow White's 114, voting Kard for his self-professed OMGUS vote, is a good post.

Ah I'm here I'm here.
He just seemed suspicious is all.
A lot of people random vote, at least I have a little reason.
I'm here I'm here.

Do you still think I am suspicious? If so, why is my defense not valid? What do you think about Kard?

You want a reason? Here.

He was the first to vote.
A mafia would be more active as he would be waiting to night kill someone.
A townie however, would be less active.
There is then the possibility that he is a cop/doctor.
I cannot disprove this theory, however, It would be less likely, because if he was mafia, then the other mafia would assist him in voting for the same person, most likely without a reason.
Both Channeldelibird, and dothefandango voted for cancerbottle, without clear reason. I can then deduce that If ChannelDelibird is mafia, then dothefango is also mafia, and if ChannelDelibird isn't, then dothefango is most likey a townie. Therefore, even if ChannelDelibird is good, then we can get valuable information from him.

This is not good logic. I was the first to vote because I was the first to see the thread after it opened. It's common practice here to make a random vote in your first post as a sort of icebreaker, and maybe as a way to start putting pressure on people. Mafia do it, townies do it, everyone does it. In fact, mafia do it

because

town do it, because mafia want to blend in.

There's also no reason why a vanilla townie would be less active than a cop or a doctor. In fact, a townie should be just as, if not more active than a role with a night action, because a townie can

only

act during the day. (In all honesty, all roles have motivation to be active during the day - town players because they want to try and lynch scum, mafia players because they want to look like town players)

It's also dangerous to say that I must have the same alignment as dothefandango, because it's entirely possible that we could have different alignments. My vote for CancerBottle early on was a random vote, which as I've explained is standard practice. At least 5 players in this game made a random vote on the first two pages - we can't all be scum, so it's unfair to single any of us out for just doing that. dothefandango's vote for CancerBottle was to try and stir up some more discussion - that's a different reason to my vote, so how can you call them the same thing?

[ChannelDelibird]

If you're going to suspect me for explaining myself, then I have half a mind to change my vote to you. But I have the other half to tell me that you're not a mafia, or at least I don't have a reason to believe that.

yet

. You know I was inactive. You know I can't imagine it being very fun as a townie. You have no idea who everyone is, and everyone shoots bullets, but only 7/9 of those are random. I would appreciate it if you didn't try to kill me. The mafia, cops , and doctors would post more. That's a fact. I didn't get a chance to read all of your posts explaining why you're not just some, killer on the loose. There is a reason the first man killed is almost always a townie, and it's not just because there are more towines. It's because the mafia will gang up on someone. I am not mafia. I know that. If three people are voting against me, well I think I've explained that that means 1 of them would probably be mafia. It wouldn't be you though. The mafia, I would imagine would start the landslide.

Unvote:ChannelDelibird
Revote:crazypianist1116

It is a common misconception among some newbies that it's somehow not fun to be a townie, and therefore townies wouldn't post so much because they're not as into the game. The fact is that's just not true. The role of a townie is the purest role in mafia - you have only your wits about you, trying to figure out who is mafia and convince everyone else of your case. That's what the whole game of mafia is about, and if somebody doesn't like being a townie then it's more likely that the game of mafia just isn't for them anyway. (It's OK to enjoy being mafia or a power role

more

, but actually disliking being a townie means you probably won't enjoy playing another role either)

And, as I say, townies will want to be active in the day precisely because they can't be active at night.

Also, in this post, you suggest CP is voting for you because you explained yourself, but that's not strictly true. He's voting for you because he wasn't satisfied with your explanation, which is not the same thing. As should be clear from my last post, your logic is faulty and as such it's a poor reason for a vote. I would disagree with CP, though, in that I'm not going to vote you for it - it's common newbie logic that is just as likely to come from newbtown than from newbscum.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also, I'm going to

unvote, vote: Kard

.

Why

did you OMGUS vote CP? Town's job is to be finding scum - how did that help towards that goal?

[ChannelDelibird]

Sigh. Giving up as town = never a good move.

Well, better press on. I think the first place to look today has to be dothefandango, for a really bad fourth vote on Kard (no reasons, just "your time is now").

Vote: dothefandango

[ChannelDelibird]

No no no, I'm sorry but I won't take the fall for this one. I was essentially bullied into voting for one of the two poeple with more votes, and now that I wanted the phase to end and voted for the one that I ORIGINALLY VOTED FOR, I get the immediate vote? No way sir.

Show me how you've been "bullied", because I don't see it. You don't get to hide behind what other players think you should do, because in the end only you are responsible for your actions.

Also,

Mod

, I'm CDB not CBD.

[ChannelDelibird]

So you thought it was justified to put a player one vote from lynch for no reason other than

random chance

? I don't see how you could possibly justify this to yourself if you were town. Meanwhile, it's a very convenient excuse for scum.

[ChannelDelibird]

dothefandango did not hammer Kard, Kard hammered himself. The less said about the latter, the better.

[ChannelDelibird]

Well essentially. I think Kard would have hung in if the force against him had not been so strong. In my eyes dothefandango might has well given the hammer. Submitting to a bandwagon without reason is not percieved well.

You're allowed to think that but it does not mean dothefandango

actually

hammered Kard, and you don't get to assume that he did for the purpose of an argument against him. Don't get me wrong, I think DTF's vote was a terrible one, but I intend to treat it like what it was, rather than misrepresenting it.

@CDB. Ill say what i feel. Its more dangerous to not say what you feel if you are town. Because if it all ends and your thoughts were right then you end up kicking yourself. Do you not agree CDB?

I'm kind of not sure why you ask this question. Have I suggested that you shouldn't say what you feel?

Anyway, yes, I think it's important to express your thoughts, and it's rarely pro-town to hold them back (though there are some exceptions to this), but you have to put them in context. See the case above, where it's not right for you to treat DTF's vote like the hammervote because you think it "might as well have been". The facts are always more valid than opinion.

[ChannelDelibird]

Well shouldn't the people that LEAD the bandwagon be looked at a little more closely then? Oh wait, that was YOU CDB.

Also, I'm going to unvote, vote: Kard. Why did you OMGUS vote CP? Town's job is to be finding scum - how did that help towards that goal?

VOTE CDB

Context is important here. I made my vote because I was suspicious of Kard's OMGUS vote, and I wanted him to explain why he did it. I didn't say that we should lynch him then and there for it, I was using my vote to try and determine whether or not I thought Kard was scum. Your vote, however, was devoid of that purpose. It was made apparently because you were told to vote, without a reason behind it, so it was clearly not part of an attempt on your behalf to determine whether or not you thought Kard was scum.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also - it's only scummy to make a vote on a town player if the reason for voting is poor. I don't think you can argue that my vote was a poor one considering that Kard's behaviour was strange and warranted explanation of motive, and you certainly can't argue that my vote was a worse one than yours.

[ChannelDelibird]

No, I don't hold you responsible for Kard's play. My vote stands, though - admitting your vote was bad doesn't make it less so. At this stage I think you're the most likely scum (but obviously, discussion is good! I don't want you lynched yet).

[ChannelDelibird]

I'll add my voice to those requesting elaboration from Kichirou.

I don't think it's very sensible to dig into the reasons behind nightkills. It's a big, murky pool of Wine In Front Of Me and outguessing and it's impossible to get actual evidence on. We can only go with what is said in the day.

[ChannelDelibird]

Ok, back for a bit, this is what I have to say:

Meji died, her vote was for Snow, the only one. Two reasons why this could have happened: Frame Snow / Protect Snow.

I disagree with this. It is entirely possible that scum killed Meji for reasons independent of Snow White. For example: scum thought meji had good logic and might be a threat later; scum wanted to kill meji because they thought that a hypothetical doctor might not protect her. That sort of thing. But the key point is that it all comes down to outguessing the scum, which is dangerous. Speculating about motives for nightkills doesn't rely on the facts of what people have said, and as such it isn't an effective way to find scum.

[ChannelDelibird]

@CDB. Are you saying that as scum or as a player?

I'm saying it as an IC.

It is also too, entirely possible that my reason is right.

FoS ChannelDeliBird

Yes, but why I am I suspicious for pointing out the alternatives? This is not a good FoS. My point is that while you could be right, there's no way to be at all sure on it because it all comes down to what the scum was thinking, and that's not something that we have a copy of in the thread to analyse. There are all sorts of possibilities, some but by no means all involve your reasoning, and we can't rule any of them in or out with any degree of certainty. Speculating about the nightkills is a very poor alternative to analysing posts.

Meji's scumdar was broken and her "logic" (as you call it CDB) was as flawed as her vote. It would have made sense to keep her around as we would have been at loggerheads again today if she had lived through the night.

I didn't say Meji's logic was good, nor did I say it was bad. I used the example to illustrate that there are possible reasons for a Meji kill that do not involve framing you or such like.

However, if i had my finger on CP who was mafia (hypothetically) it would make sense to kill Meji, frame Snow White (who Meji was most accusational of), Snow White would be caught up in questions and unable to accuse CP and have town lynch Snow White Day2. But then what if it is WIFOM? (Reverse, reverse, reverse psychology)

That's exactly what it is. You also deal in too many definites ("would") here rather than "might", because you seem to be implying that town should have autolynched you by now or something because of Meji's death.

But co-incidentally, it was CP who first pointed out that I was Meji's

only

suspect. Even though i had already addressed that in an earlier post. It appears as though he just came in and wrote what Mafia may had planned.

But maybe that's what the mafia were hoping someone would do after they killed Meji!
(I don't necessarily believe this, but my point is that the whole Mejideath angle is WIFOM)

Of course i could be just paranoid as hell. Im not saying you should all bandwagon CP, thats your choice, but for the time being, i like my vote.

If you genuinely think CP is scum then you

should

be saying we should bandwagon him.

Other than Meji Fan's death what else is there to go on atm?

dothefandango's Lynch-1 vote yesterday on Kard for one, but I'll find some more answers to this question when it's no longer 1AM.

[ChannelDelibird]

The point of starting a bandwagon, even for good purposes, is still starting a bandwagon, and I do think this sort of behavior needs to be looked at. I'm not incriminating you CDB, I just want more info on why you did it, maybe if you could sum it up in a few sentences?

Sure.

Kard made an admitted OMGUS vote. This struck me as strange (why would town want to do that? it's not scumhunting if it's OMGUS, and town should be trying to scumhunt), and so I voted Kard to put pressure on him to explain why he did it. Pretty sure I've said this before though.

[ChannelDelibird]

"AHA!" DTF at potential quicklynch. L-2. Innocents please remove votes until we can talk things through.

1) Nobody's at Lynch -2
2) We're not at LyLo, so in this situation, if scum quicklynched, they'd be incredibly obvious because we're clearly not ready to lynch anyone yet, so they'd be making themselves clear. Then we lynch them both the following days. So no need to really worry about a quicklynch unless we're in LyLo (we're not).

@CDB. I dont find OMGUS votes suspicious. Alot of people do it. Im even tempted to do it sometimes. Im pretty sure CP has done it to me at some point.

I didn't say I found the act of OMGUS itself suspicious. It was that Kard

announced

that it was OMGUS (normally one doesn't, and is promptly accused of OMGUS), because as he knew it was OMGUS, and as he immediately unvoted when the other guy unvoted him, he didn't appear to be using his vote to scumhunt.

That's

why I voted him.

The way you phrased it implied my reason was to be thrown out and should be ignored. I dont think anything should be ignored.

I absolutely implied it should be ignored, because we don't have enough in-thread evidence to support it. It's just conjecture and speculation about one of many equal possibilities. You do have to ignore things if they're not viable evidence.

[ChannelDelibird]

My apologies, there are people at Lynch-2. The quicklynch point stands, though.

[ChannelDelibird]

Not keen on dothefandango openly speculating about Kichirou as a cop. Suggests he may be scum passing his suspicion on to his buddy in case of his own lynch.

[ChannelDelibird]

No, I'm just talking out loud. I realize now that this may be considered "outing" Kichirou, but I need to figure out who is full of it and who is on my side. I figure this will force Kichirou to say something.

But that's the kind of thinking that you should be doing in your head, not TELLING THE SCUM WHO YOU THINK MIGHT BE A COP.

[ChannelDelibird]

We could all be a cop, my speculations are as useless as anyone else's. Stop turning an anthill to a mountain.

That's not the same thing, you thought you had reasons to believe he was more likely to be a cop than a vanilla town, which is info to the scum. Don't turn this on me.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm not turning this on you, I'm saying you're making more out of this than it requires. My speculation is just that, speculation.

Yeah, and speculation about who might be a cop is bad for the town and good for the scum.

[ChannelDelibird]

And now you're voting for the guy you think might be the cop.

[ChannelDelibird]

By the way, Kichirou, DO NOT SAY IF YOU ARE OR ARE NOT A COP. DO NOT DO THAT. Thanks.

[ChannelDelibird]

Speculation as to who can be a cop is a good thing if there is a doctor in the house.

But we have no guarantee that there is a doctor in the house (and please, nobody claim doc), and so the risk of outing an unprotected cop is NOT worth it. Openly discussing who might be a cop or a doc only helps the scum choose the best possible kill. Anyone who engages in it is scummy,

period

.

Why am I on your scumdar, Snow White? What did you think of my response to you recently?

[ChannelDelibird]

bgg, if you think DTF is more suspicious than Kichirou, you should be voting Kichirou. This also makes you something of a hypocrite - DTF is under suspicion for making a lazy lynch-1 vote yesterday, and now you're doing the same. Wanting the game to move quicker is not a valid reason to put someone one vote from lynch.

FoS: bgg

[ChannelDelibird]

EBWOP: I obviously meant to say "you should be voting DTF".

[ChannelDelibird]

This looks very much like bgg is DTF's scumbuddy. I am now

strongly

in favour of a DTF lynch, as not only is it a better vote than Kichirou, but it will also give some insight into bgg, who looks a lot like the buddy trying to save DTF's bacon by switching to the other wagon in the name of 'getting on with it'. I don't think the game is stalling, I think you want the town to think it is so you can get away with a soft lynch, rather than going with someone you claim to genuinely suspect. It is

not

pro-town to vote somebody other than your top suspicion in this situation.

Confirm vote: dothefandango

Strong FoS: bgg

[ChannelDelibird]

Looking forward to hearing more from CancerBottle.

[ChannelDelibird]

What do you think of bgg's Kichirou vote?

[ChannelDelibird]

Well, that blows my DTF/bgg theory. That said, though, I still think there's reason to be suspicious of both of them. DTF's lynch-1 on Kard is no less opportunistic and flimsy, and bgg's hammer on Kichirou could well be an attempt to throw his scumbuddy under the bus, with the fact that Kichirou flipped scum being a reason for him to persuade us to ignore the terrible "I'm bored, let's get on with it" reasoning. The fact remains that he ignored what he claimed to be his real suspicion in favour of someone he didn't claim to be suspicious of at all.

Vote: bgg

,

FoS: DTF

Obviously only one of them can be scum, so discussion is needed (and of course I'm not ruling out anyone else, just that I think these two are far more likely).

[ChannelDelibird]

What's with the Snow White vote? And how does Kichirou being scum make your lynch-1 vote on Kard any better?

I'm not liking the "let's end this", either. Day's just started, and you sound like you just want to lynch and go home.

[ChannelDelibird]

No, DTF, just because it happened two game days ago doesn't make it any less likely to be scum behaviour. In fact,

unvote, vote: DTF

who is clearly trying to get rid of an issue that incriminates him.

If you think Kichirou and Snow White were buddies, find me some evidence. Don't just say it's obvious and assume that's enough.

[ChannelDelibird]

And here's where we get into the WIFOM territory I was talking about yesterday. Maybe the mafia want us to think that Snow White was scum? Maybe it's a double bluff and she really did kill him knowing we might think that? ...and so on. Both have equal logic, with equal chance of screwing us over. It's dangerous.

Also, you should presumably be suspicious of me, too - I didn't think Kichirou was scum either, I thought it was you and bgg.

[ChannelDelibird]

So both my scum suspects made a quick vote on Snow White. I am now definitely not going to vote Snow White today. (Also, for god's sake, someone UNVOTE, at this stage we definitely don't want a quicklynch)

Also, DTF, you haven't answered my question - why aren't you suspicious of me as well, because I didn't think Kichirou was scum either?

bgg - you haven't responded to my earlier vote on you. I find that somewhat odd.

[ChannelDelibird]

There was no particular reason for choosing one over the other, and I couldn't vote both of you. I've since switched to DTF because it looks like he's trying to pretend his scummy behaviour happened too long ago to be important now. And all my votes are for pressure, that's what votes are for.

[ChannelDelibird]

Way to miss my point. I thought your vote on Kichirou was for terrible reasons (abandoning your supposed real suspicion for the sake of the game moving on) and looked like you might have been throwing your scumbuddy under the bus. This is independent of DTF.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also, I haven't once claimed today that you are scumbuddies with DTF. Only yesterday.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also, bgg (or DTF, I don't mind which), please unvote Snow White. While I personally feel sure that the scum is already on that wagon, I don't want to run the risk of a quicklynch, accidental or otherwise, so early in the day.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm not avoiding the question. I answered it in 276.

[ChannelDelibird]

Oh, please.
If there was a quicklynch, then mafia would kill someone, there would be 3 left, and we would win, voting the quicklyncher.

Sure, if the quicklynch is deliberate. I'm more wary of a newbtown player hammering prematurely or, god forbid, a self-vote like Kard did. Why do you have a problem with allowing more time for discussion?

[ChannelDelibird]

That being said, I will not change my vote. If anything I cannot see why you are even voting for me. My actions, whether you agree with them or not, are pretty much the reason we have one mafia left. All signs POINT TO SNOW WHITE.

No, they don't. You're trying to pretend you didn't irresponsibly and reasonlessly put Kard at lynch-1 on Day 1, and now you're trying to take credit for the Kichirou lynch (when your only reason for voting was that you didn't think he was a reliable source of info...I don't even know what you meant by that). I don't buy it. I think you're scum.

Also, I'm still waiting for a reason to vote for Snow White. I haven't seen a good one yet.

[ChannelDelibird]

What I meant, and didn't want to say was that Kichirou was saying things he could not support and acting way too high profile. My L-1 vote of Kard was a mistake, I've admitted that extensively. If you think I'm sucm, that's fine -- but I want you to know you are wasting your vote, and a dayphase doing so.

Why didn't you want to say that? What possible reason did you have for keeping it back? Were you trying to hold back reasons why your scumbuddy might be scummy in case the wagon switched to somebody else? That's what it soundss like.

Also, "yeah, but, I'm not scum", isn't a defence, nor a reason of any kind for me to move my vote. Your Appeal to Emotion by telling me that I'm wasting a dayphase (we've got one spare, anyway) is noted.

As far as CB and Snow White go: CB I think is most likely town, I have no reason to suspect him, I will not consider a vote for him today. Snow White I feel is less scummy than both you and bgg, and the fact that you're both voting for her only makes me reinforce the opinion that she's probably town.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also, you only bring CB up when asking me to comment on him. You haven't done so yourself. Why is that?

[ChannelDelibird]

Further, where is CB in this discussion? Or snow white?

I misinterpreted this post. Please disregard my post 288.

(That said, what

do

you think of CB, DTF?)

[ChannelDelibird]

I will be on holiday for 9 days starting tomorrow morning. I expect to have full internet access where I am going, but on the off chance that I don't, that'll be why I'm not posting (if this is the case I will be trying to find another method of access ASAP). Just so you know.

[ChannelDelibird]

To be honest, I have no idea what to think. I don't like him putting me at L-1, obviously, because the only vote now is you [Snow White], and I know you're not going to vote for yourself, so my pressure on you at this point makes no sense.

Well, the idea is to make people change their votes, not assume that once someone's voted that's it, there's nothing you can do.

I see how my actions at Kard can be conceived as scummy, but this is just a bad case of wrong place, wrong time. I don't know how I can explain this enough. I thought I made up for it for not only VOTING for a scum, but being the reason bgg changed his vote to scum (not in convincing him, but for him to drop the hammer like he did based on the stalemate).

1) It is possible for scum to vote for their buddies. Your vote on Kichirou wasn't a particularly bad one, I admit, but that doesn't make up for your scummy Kard vote.
2) You don't get to take credit for the Kichirou lynch because it enabled bgg to make a scummy vote (one that was looking to move the game on, not to lynch scum, even though it ended up in the latter). As you say, you didn't *convince* him that Kichirou was scum. I'm not impressed that you think this makes up for your earlier behaviour.

If anything, I suppose I should be looking at CDB for suspecting me even though I voted for a scum, but at this point it seems you're either for or against me.

Yeah, see above, that doesn't make you town, and suspecting you doesn't make me scum, especially since I've backed up my vote with reason.

A lot of heat was put on me because I put a townie at L-1. Now, I stand at L-1 and no one jumps at this.

Context.

You put Kard at lynch-1 for no good reason. You're at lynch-1 because you've earned it. That's why we're not jumping at your situation.

The reason I found Snow White suspicious is what seemed to be a concurrence of what her and Kichirou said. She now claims innocence, but it seems like there are just too many instances of her seemingly being "framed" for this to run true.

As I've said before, I don't put much stock in choices of nightkill because it's a murky WIFOM area, and regarding her interactions with Kichirou...I'm yet to be convinced. I haven't seen anything suspicious enough in their interactions to make me think it's worth looking into before we lynch you.

I'd like you to claim, DTF.

[ChannelDelibird]

Snow White, I think you should hammer.

[ChannelDelibird]

And by that I mean, don't you dare do it yourself, DTF.

[ChannelDelibird]

You're trying to force a play on Snow White. Don't do that. When it comes out that I am town, you have NO ONE but yourself to blame. If you were scum, you would be smart enough to realize that this sort of persecution can only lead to your demise if I am a townie. Everyone is following YOUR lead. This is on your head man. When you guys go at the mafia 2v1, I wish you the best of luck.

Of course I'm trying to influence Snow White, I think you're scum and I think we can win the game by lynching you. Yes, I could be wrong, and I'm not ruling it out, but there's always tomorrow on that off chance. Don't Appeal to Emotion me with this stuff about "this isn't smart if you're scum" and "it's all on your head". No, it's not. If you get lynched it'll be by majority, and if someone makes a vote that's just following my lead then I'll pick them up on it.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also, Snow White, I'm actually

both

truthful

and

an incredible genius! =D

[ChannelDelibird]

I want to make a big long post now, there's a lot of stuff to respond to, but the sound of my typing carries loudly in the building I'm currently staying in and I don't want to wake anyone up (it's 11:50 PM in my timezone), so it will have to wait 'til morning.

Don't lynch anyone, even DTF, until I've been able to post it, please.

[ChannelDelibird]

It wasn't majority when Kard was lynched? And that is on my head now. Your reasoning, as "tight" as you think it is, is based on me making a mistake the first day. It happens, people make bad plays. But further, it was the first day. Kard seemed suspicious, I gave in to poor reasoning in my own head, and voted for him without reasoning. He dropped the hammer ON HIMSELF.

I'm not saying the entire Kard lynch is on you. I'm just saying that the way you put him at lynch-1 for no reason was extremely suspicious. That's not the only reason I'm voting for you, either - I pointed out at the start of the day that you were trying to pretend that your behaviour wasn't relevant anymore because it happened two days ago, which strongly suggests you were scared of other people latching onto that behaviour. I am NOT blaming Kard's selfvote on you, that was Kard's mistake alone, but in the quote above you admit to putting him in a dangerous position without good reason, and even if Kard hadn't selfhammered, that would still have been suspicious.

It makes no sense for me to vote for Kichirou to "throw him under a bus" when in that situation if I voted for say, CP, bgg would have followed suit and a townie would have been gone. You can throw all your theory at me, but it doesn't always work. This is a case of you making a mountain out of molehill, still.

This doesn't make sense. You didn't know bgg was going to just hammer to get on with the game, and if you did, the pro-town move would have been to not allow him to do so. It's quite plausible that you could have been bussing Kichirou, in order to use exactly this argument ("look, I got a mafia lynched! I

can't

be scum!") to make people think you're town.

-----

In other news, Snow White is quite right to react in the way she did to bgg's vague hints. They looked a lot like a cop trying to intimate a guilty investigation (and if we DO have a cop with a guilty, come out now and we can win the game), but as bgg's since specified that he is not a cop, then

bgg - you must explain yourself

. If you're not a cop, then there is no information you can have which can't or shouldn't be shared with the town. Any "plan" you had can't work now because you've drawn attention to it. Explain this in your next post, because otherwise it's just going to look like you're lying scum trying (and failing) to convince people to vote Snow White for a secret (read: no) reason.

-----

DTF, I don't think

everything

you've done is scummy. Far from it. It's only to do with your lynch-1 vote and your attempts to ignore the issue earlier today. Things that I mentioned on Day 2 are no longer valid reasons to suspect you because they were more to do with either you and bgg being scumbuddies or Kichirou being town, both of which are no longer possible. So I don't find your unvote of Snow White suspicious, to reply to your post 309.

-----

Speaking of which, why didn't the mafia kill the little IC?
That's right, I want some answers from you this time CDB.
Don't take it personnally, I'll do it to everyone. It's just to clear false suspicions.
1. Why didn't the mafia kill the IC rather than mejifan, and crazypianist?
2. Why are you so obsessed with killing me and dothefandango?
3. Why can't I think of a third question?

1. There are plenty of reasons why this could be the case (though as I've said repeatedly this game, though, trying to figure out the scum's thinking on the nightkills is murky WIFOM territory): for example, it's quite possible that I've been left alive because the scum were hoping that someone would make exactly the post that you just did, implicating me. It's also possible that for whatever reason the scum thought Meji or CP might be threats later, or that they thought they could frame someone else by killing those particular people, or that Meji looked at them a bit funny, or that the scum have an irrational hatred of people whose usernames end in 'pianist'. There are a lot of possible reasons, and we have no way of deciding with any certainty at all which is the more likely.

2. I'm not "obsessed", but thanks for picking a word that suggests that I shouldn't be listened to. I've given reasons why I think that one of you and DTF is most likely to be the last remaining mafia, currently with DTF being the more likely candidate in my opinion, and hence I want to lynch DTF. I'm not ignoring other possibilities, but I think you two are the most likely.

-----

Just came across this: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... lage_Idiot

HMM?

Are you implying that you're a VI or that Snow White is?

-----

Also, DTF, if you think I might be scum, by all means vote for me, but you need to do it the right way. The fact that you're aware you might just be OMGUSing is a good sign, because if you know it's possible you can avoid it. If you're suspicious, look back through my posts and actions and decide

whether I'm more likely to have done what I've done as scum or as town

. I can't be scum just because I'm voting for you (I'm not the only one voting for you, after all), so you need to analyse

why

I'm voting for you and decide whether my actions are representative of a town player (that is to say: am I genuinely trying to find scum? Can you understand why a town player might be voting for you, and is that consistent with my reasoning? Am I making the vote I think is right, even if it would be easier to vote for someone else?). Obviously, I believe the answers to all of those questions are yes, but it's for you to decide.

-----

Also, I want to hear more from CancerBottle. He's lurking.

[ChannelDelibird]

Fine.
It was a stupid plan anyway.

Yes.

Speaking of which, since the plan cannot work after the mafia reads this post,

I unvote snow white

, but fos:CDB, you read the fact that if the mafia found out my plan, it would be ruined.

I've already said that it was you that ruined your "plan", not me, by drawing attention to it. There was no way any self-respecting town could have allowed you to get away with saying "I can't tell you why I'm doing this, but I'm not a cop" without explaining yourself, because there was no super-secret information you could have had. Ergo, as soon as you said it, you'd ruined it because you were always going to have to explain, so don't pin this on me because I was the one who asked you to.

After everyone else but cancerbottle posted, you were the only one to demand to know what it was.

Is my reasoning wrong? No.
Are the other players who posted newbies and therefore possibly not aware of why it was important you explained yourself? Yes.

I noticed every night snow white got framed. After that I started to wonder what would happen if snow white got lynched. Again, I will remind you, that I since realized it was a stupid plan, because I came to the conclusion that the mafia would frame someone else. The mafia, of course, does not have to frame someone else. But since I didn't realize that at the time, I believed I could determine the mafia by who they framed. And remember, next round, NO VOTING!!!!!

Whoops, I unspoilered it. No-one's *not* gonna read it, anyway.

So, uh, yes, it's a bit of a stupid plan, because it relies entirely on conjecture about why people were nightkilled (I've continually given reasons why that sort of thing isn't reliable for scumhunting). So since you're aware that it's a stupid plan, why did you give me a FoS for supposedly ruining it? (as I've said above, you were the one that ruined it anyway)

Now that I've told you my plan, I will go on to tell you why I suspect CDB.
He suspects me, and dothefandango, and since DTF is probably dying today, that leaves me as his top suspect (And if DTF turns out to be evil, it doesn't matter who I suspect, because the game would be over), and I know myself to be good.

Clearly one of you is town. That much is obvious. Do you think I think you're

both

scum or something? O.o And why am I likely to be scum just because I suspect you and "you know you're town"? The whole point is that the town don't know who each other are, so town players suspect each other all the time. This is a non-argument.

Don't you find it a little coincidental that his top suspects_me and DTF_ aren't lynched OR night killed till the 2nd-last day phase, assuming DTF is lynched.

This makes no sense either. You seem to be assuming the following:

1) that I've been suspicious of you and DTF from the very start of the game.
2) that I could have either of them lynched at any time just because I wanted to.
3) that I am somehow responsible for their not being nightkilled.

Here is why the above are not true:

1) I first expressed suspicion of DTF at the start of Day 2 (since I wasn't online at the time he made his lynch-1 vote on Kard, which was at the end of Day 1). I only seriously considered you as scum from your hammer vote at the end of Day 2, and consequently the start of today. I hadn't established clearly defined suspicions yet when Day 1 abruptly ended. So, your point that I've apparently been after you two the whole game is wrong.

2) Of course I couldn't just have one of you lynched at any time just because I wanted to - if that were the case, DTF would have died a lot earlier, probably yesterday. I'm just one of the players in this game, and it requires a majority to lynch. Sure, I'm trying to persuade people to agree with me, because I agree with me, but that doesn't mean that I am responsible for the fact that neither of you have died yet. In fact, it suggests the opposite - I've been arguing for DTF particularly to die for two game days now, so it's pretty much down to everyone else that he hasn't died yet.

3) This is unfair, because you are *assuming* that I am mafia and not including the possibility that I am town. For someone who's put so much stock into this whole "framing" business with regard to the nightkills, I find it ridiculous that you are so narrow-minded when it comes to how you think the nightkills make me look.

You're an IC, so if you were mafia, you could hide it pretty well, and I STILL find it strange you were never killed.

Being more experienced doesn't automatically make me a better player. I'm fine with you reading my play in this game and some of my other old games if you like, and judging my ability personally, but it's a lazy argument to say "all ICs must be better at mafia".

Also, it's not enough for you to just say I'd be good at hiding it if I were mafia. That's using the Too Townie argument, where you accuse someone of being so pro-town, that they must be scum. It's a logical fallacy - if I look pro-town, I'm more likely to be pro-town. Unless you can find actual posts that I've made that are more likely to be made by scum than town (and, please, feel free to look), then you have no real reason to suspect me. It's just IC-fear, and it's baseless.

I'm going to repeat this, because it's something everyone needs to understand:

The only way you can judge whether you think people are scum or not is by finding posts that they've made that are scummy.

Not fear of someone's reputation (whether it's earned or not, I'm not going to judge my own ability as a player, that's up to you), not WIFOM based on a million possible reasons why Player X got killed at night rather than Player Y, but actual things they've said and done that are more likely to have been said and done by someone looking to blend in, to mislead the town, rather than someone looking to hunt the scum.

I genuinely believe that I have spent this game asking questions of people, picking them up only on things they've said and done in the thread, making them answer and explain themselves, to try and determine who is more likely to be scum. If any of you think I've been trying to blend in, or mislead the town,

find a post of mine that backs up that theory

. I'll be happy to explain myself, because I have nothing to hide.

My top suspects are you and snow white, and may I add, never once did snow white vote a mafia.

You mean, never once did Snow White vote for a *confirmed* mafia. She may well have voted for the other mafia, but we don't know who that is yet. This is an unfair argument to use on her (and also, I never voted for Kichirou either. We can't both be scum).

Also, Snow white, for your own good, list all of the possibly scummy things you did, and say why they aren't true. Trust me, the more there are, the less scummy you'll seem.

No, it's not up to her to find what she thinks might be scummy about herself, because she will believe everything she's done is pro-town. You have to tell her what you found scummy, and then she can respond to them.

[ChannelDelibird]

Mod: can we get a prod on CancerBottle, please?

It's been nearly a week since his last post.

[ChannelDelibird]

I've already said that it was you that ruined your "plan", not me, by drawing attention to it. There was no way any self-respecting town could have allowed you to get away with saying "I can't tell you why I'm doing this, but I'm not a cop" without explaining yourself, because there was no super-secret information you could have had. Ergo, as soon as you said it, you'd ruined it because you were always going to have to explain, so don't pin this on me because I was the one who asked you to.

Just because the plan was mentioned didn't necessarily mean it was going to fail. It's stupidness made sure of that. In fact I used complicated terms to give the illusion that it wasn't as stupid as in reality it was.

Explain to me why my logic is wrong when I say that a town

must

ask a player who explicitly claims not-cop yet also claims some secret plan that precludes them from explaining themselves to explain themselves.

Also, there was a typo, I meant this.

After everyone else but cancerbottle posted, you were the only one to demand to know what it was.

Is my reasoning wrong?

Yes

.
Are the other players who posted newbies and therefore possibly not aware of why it was important you explained yourself?

not if they were townies

.

What? You're saying that townies, even newbie townies, would know why you had to explain yourself rather than just be allowed to go on saying "it's a plan, shhhh", and therefore you are suggesting that DTF, who was the only one who did not pick you up on it, is scum? If so, why are you voting Snow White and not DTF?

Also, saying it was only a Finger of Minor Suspicion doesn't change that it's a degree of suspicion, and I see absolutely no reason why I should be suspected for picking you up on that.

Clearly one of you is town. That much is obvious. Do you think I think you're

both

scum or something? O.o And why am I likely to be scum just because I suspect you and "you know you're town"? The whole point is that the town don't know who each other are, so town players suspect each other all the time. This is a non-argument.

What I was trying to say was, if dothefandango, ended up good, that would mean your ONLY two suspicions in the game are good, and if he ended up bad, there's no point in having suspicions in the first place, because the game would be over.

This makes absolutely no sense. Yes, it's possible you are both town, but I think it's unlikely, given the evidence, but that's not the point - you seem to be implying that I somehow *couldn't* only suspect town players, and that is ridiculous.

On the other hand, what do you mean, there would be no point in having suspicions in the first place because the game would be over - THAT WOULD BE THE POINT. Finding the scum, lynching them, ENDING THE GAME. I genuinely have no idea what you are trying to imply here.

Don't you find it a little coincidental that his top suspects_me and DTF_ aren't lynched OR night killed till the 2nd-last day phase, assuming DTF is lynched.

This makes no sense either. You seem to be assuming the following:

1) that I've been suspicious of you and DTF from the very start of the game.
2) that I could have either of them lynched at any time just because I wanted to.
3) that I am somehow responsible for their not being nightkilled.

Here is why the above are not true:

1) I first expressed suspicion of DTF at the start of Day 2 (since I wasn't online at the time he made his lynch-1 vote on Kard, which was at the end of Day 1). I only seriously considered you as scum from your hammer vote at the end of Day 2, and consequently the start of today. I hadn't established clearly defined suspicions yet when Day 1 abruptly ended. So, your point that I've apparently been after you two the whole game is wrong.

I never said you were suspecting us from the start of the game, if you did, you could have picked kard by mistake.
I was saying that in the game, you only ever had 2 suspicions, me and DTF,

And

why

was that important? At all?

2) Of course I couldn't just have one of you lynched at any time just because I wanted to - if that were the case, DTF would have died a lot earlier, probably yesterday. I'm just one of the players in this game, and it requires a majority to lynch. Sure, I'm trying to persuade people to agree with me, because I agree with me, but that doesn't mean that I am responsible for the fact that neither of you have died yet. In fact, it suggests the opposite - I've been arguing for DTF particularly to die for two game days now, so it's pretty much down to everyone else that he hasn't died yet.

I can't argue with you there, but of course if you were mafia

But of course if I were mafia, what?

3) This is unfair, because you are *assuming* that I am mafia and not including the possibility that I am town. For someone who's put so much stock into this whole "framing" business with regard to the nightkills, I find it ridiculous that you are so narrow-minded when it comes to how you think the nightkills make me look.

There is the possibility that you are town, but it's

your

job to explain why.

Have you not understood what I have been saying

all game

about nightkill speculation?

You're an IC, so if you were mafia, you could hide it pretty well, and I STILL find it strange you were never killed.

Being more experienced doesn't automatically make me a better player. I'm fine with you reading my play in this game and some of my other old games if you like, and judging my ability personally, but it's a lazy argument to say "all ICs must be better at mafia".

1.Practice makes perfect.
2.ARE you more experienced?
3.I

am

lazy.

1. Practice improves. I'm not perfect.
2. Yes, clearly, but it's perfectly possible for a new player to be better than someone who's played for a long time. (I could mention frequent players on this site who are inferior players to those I've seen in this game)
3. Admitting to being lazy doesn't make it right to use lazy arguments.

I did that and found out you're actually probably not mafia.
No, not because of your advice,

Vote Count

ChannelDelibird (3)Kichirou

A mafia doesn't usually vote for it's teammate on the first round.

:headdesk:

A few things:
1) That's a sweeping statement. Do you have any evidence to back it up?
2) In my experience, mafia do sometimes do that. About as often as not, in fact.
3) You seem determined to miss my point. Have you read

my

posts, not Kichirou's votes (though those may be interesting to look at *separately*), and what do you think of them? Do they look like pro-town posts?

My top suspects are you and snow white, and may I add, never once did snow white vote a mafia.

You mean, never once did Snow White vote for a *confirmed* mafia. She may well have voted for the other mafia, but we don't know who that is yet. This is an unfair argument to use on her (and also, I never voted for Kichirou either. We can't both be scum).

I know, It was just something I thought I'd point out.

So you're admitting that the argument is invalid because we don't know who the other mafia is, but you made it anyway? Why? If it's invalid, it's not useful, but posting it has the effect of stirring the pot on Snow White anyway, so that sounds like a good reason for scum trying to get Snow White lynched.

Also, Snow white, for your own good, list all of the possibly scummy things you did, and say why they aren't true. Trust me, the more there are, the less scummy you'll seem.

No, it's not up to her to find what she thinks might be scummy about herself, because she will believe everything she's done is pro-town. You have to tell her what you found scummy, and then she can respond to them.

I disagree with that statement

Tell me

why

I'm wrong. Not just that you disagree. Address my reasons.

but I have the time now, so Snow White:
1. Why do you think the mafia tried to frame you rather than say, CDB?

Jesus Christ! Have you not been reading my posts? Look, I'll quote it again for you:

The only way you can judge whether you think people are scum or not is by finding posts that they've made that are scummy. Not fear of someone's reputation (whether it's earned or not, I'm not going to judge my own ability as a player, that's up to you), not WIFOM based on a million possible reasons why Player X got killed at night rather than Player Y, but actual things they've said and done that are more likely to have been said and done by someone looking to blend in, to mislead the town, rather than someone looking to hunt the scum.

Go and quote some posts that Snow White made that are scummy. POSTS. That SHE made and that SHE can answer for.

2. What proof do you have that you're not mafia?

This is a leading question, because it is asked assuming that she is mafia. I repeat, it is YOUR job to find posts that suggest she is mafia, and HER job to answer your questions about them.

[ChannelDelibird]

Speaking of which, why didn't the mafia kill the little IC?
That's right, I want some answers from you this time CDB.
Don't take it personnally, I'll do it to everyone. It's just to clear false suspicions.
1. Why didn't the mafia kill the IC rather than mejifan, and crazypianist?
2. Why are you so obsessed with killing me and dothefandango?
3. Why can't I think of a third question?

This is actually a good question, but unfortunately, is very much unanswerable. In my experience, it goes two ways IF the IC is NOT mafia:

1. Players who are considered "the best" are usually NK'd by night 3.

2. Or those good players are currently barking up an Townie's tree, and since those "good" players hold so much persuasive power, that Townie is likely to get lynched. So, the mafia spares him.

Yes, it's possible the mafia wants me to lynch DTF. It's also possible, as I've mentioned before, that by leaving me alive they were simply hoping that eventually we would be having this very conversation ("why is the IC still alive? that's suspicious"). As well as a million other reasons.

Is

nobody

listening to me? The

only

thing we can make remotely certain judgement on is POSTS. Things people have said publicly. If there are no scummy posts, there is no case.

Bgg's 1337 sting operation/plan-thing, again glowed newb-town. Newb-town tend to threaten those who pose a threat to them. They haven't grasped the concept of tact just yet. Also, NT tend to theorize mafia connections without considering the WIFOM involved.

I agree with this to an extent (newbie scum also speculates on nightkills and framings because it's easier than scumhunting through analysing posts), but I am not sure who specifically you mean by saying "newb-town tend to threaten those who pose a threat to them". As far as I can tell, bgg's "plan" was about threatening, loosely, "the scum".

That being said, I feel I must defend an aspect of the "Too Townie" argument against CDB. We've all seen games where the last scum won. The one player we were certain was Town. He/she made all the right moves, went after players for their bad logic and even led wagons against their fellow scum. After the game is over, everyone says "Dang, I knew something was up with him. He seemed too town to be a good guy."

NO.

NO.

NO.

Yes, scum can play great games and win without garnering much suspicion, but that CANNOT be the only reason to lynch someone, EVER. There has to be *something* that they have said or done that looks scummy, otherwise nine times out of ten it is genuinely a helpful town player that is lynched.

It's Occam's Razor = the simplest answer is usually the correct one. If somebody has been making pro-town arguments, aggressively scumhunting, asking questions, and generally looking pro-town,

they are probably town

.

So what I'm saying is, while I have no reason to suspect CDB (in fact he is on my tentative pro-town list), I don't think we should dismiss the "Too Townie" fallacy altogether. Lynches should be based upon scummy posts, but sometimes, your gut feeling on a player is on the right track.

You've actually used the word "fallacy" yourself! That alone is a pretty damn good reason to dismiss it.

CDB, what will you do if DTF is lynched and is revealed innocent? I will be going after Snow White if that's the case.

I'm not going to set up tomorrow's lynch before we've seen what happens with today's. As it stands, today, I don't see Snow White as likely scum and it would take a lot for me to change my mind. (There is also the fact that someone will [probably] be nightkilled, and that will reduce the suspect pool)

[ChannelDelibird]

A sentiment of which I have agreed. Thing is, as scum, I've used the same argument you're using, when people go after me or my fellow scumbuddies for WIFOM reasons.

I hope they listened to you.

Bgg's 1337 sting operation/plan-thing, again glowed newb-town. Newb-town tend to threaten those who pose a threat to them. They haven't grasped the concept of tact just yet. Also, NT tend to theorize mafia connections without considering the WIFOM involved.

I agree with this to an extent (newbie scum also speculates on nightkills and framings because it's easier than scumhunting through analysing posts), but I am not sure who specifically you mean by saying "newb-town tend to threaten those who pose a threat to them". As far as I can tell, bgg's "plan" was about threatening, loosely, "the scum".

Sorry, I should have made that clearer. Pronouns FTL. When NT are questioned by another player NT tend to think that the only players who suspect them are scum. Hence the odd "I have secret info I'm going off of" messages. Good point about newbscum, but in my experience, IIoA, which is kinda what you're talking about isn't all that great a tell. I've found newbscum tend to be as quiet as possible, only showing up to vote or make sketchy analysis.

IIoA (Information Instead of Analysis for the uninformed) isn't really my point here. A faulty WIFOM argument isn't information, it's an argument.

You'll note that I said cases for lynches need to be build around scummy posts.... I also said, the "gut feeling" should not be ignored.

Yes, it absolutely should if you have no reason to back it up. Gut feeling comes from things that rub you up the wrong way. If your (hypothetical you) gut is saying "he looks really town...suspiciously so", then you ate something weird for breakfast.

While I'm a big fan of Occam and his shaving implements, you could turn it around and say the only reason why the IC is still alive is because he himself is scum, not a victim of a somewhat elaborate mafia scheme to distract or discredit him. Again, as scum, I've slammed players for such gut feelings, stating they must find more solid evidence. Their feelings about be were correct, but they couldn't find the evidence to lynch me from my posts.

That's not the simplest solution - my whole point here is that

we don't know what the simplest solution regarding nightkills is

, which is why they're highly unreliable as evidence.

And congratulations, you played a great game as scum and deserved to win. That's the exception, not the rule.

I'm not going to set up tomorrow's lynch before we've seen what happens with today's. As it stands, today, I don't see Snow White as likely scum and it would take a lot for me to change my mind. (There is also the fact that someone will [probably] be nightkilled, and that will reduce the suspect pool)

I ask because you seem pretty steadfast on taking down DTF and Bgg. So if DTF is town, it appears you'll still want to go after Bgg.[/quote]

It's possible. It will depend on how the end of the day comes around, who gets nightkilled, what people say at the start of the next day. I intend to keep an open mind and take things as they come. Right now all we should be focusing on is today.

[ChannelDelibird]

EBWOP:

I'm not going to set up tomorrow's lynch before we've seen what happens with today's. As it stands, today, I don't see Snow White as likely scum and it would take a lot for me to change my mind. (There is also the fact that someone will [probably] be nightkilled, and that will reduce the suspect pool)

I ask because you seem pretty steadfast on taking down DTF and Bgg. So if DTF is town, it appears you'll still want to go after Bgg.

It's possible. It will depend on how the end of the day comes around, who gets nightkilled, what people say at the start of the next day. I intend to keep an open mind and take things as they come. Right now all we should be focusing on is today.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'll ask you the same thing I asked bgg, DTF: go and quote me some of Snow White's posts that were more likely to be made by scum than town.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'll start with Occam's Razor:

Meji Fan died first night, only one to vote for Snow White.
CrazyPianist died second night, Snow White had heavy suspicions of him all along.

Okay, let's play along with this ridiculous speculation for a moment: what would Snow White-Scum gain from killing CrazyPianist?

Then we get into her saying things like this:

Its not an overt explanation to me because i know im innocent so logically someone was trying to frame me by killing Meji.

I don't see that as a "logical" explanation. It's just as easy for her to kill Meji say that than for a scum to kill Meji. The two are equally logical.

It's logical for

her

to say. She's naturally going to only see it from the POV of her being town. I don't really see why this is indicative of scum.

So your case on Snow White is one post that she made, in which she takes as read that she is town. I'm not impressed.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also, if they're

equally

logical (I would use the word 'similarly', but I agree), it's not Occam's Razor.

[ChannelDelibird]

No, Snow White, I don't *know* you're innocent. However, I think you are *probably* innocent because you've not made scummy posts, plus my two top suspects are flinging bad cases at you. I won't make your defence for you if they come up with an actual reason to suspect you, but I will always object if they keep pushing this crap one.

[ChannelDelibird]

If the question is "why is the IC, the most experienced player, still alive" then the simplest explanation is that player is still alive because he is mafia. Anything else requires something more elaborate on the mafia's part.

Only if you assume that I am the default nightkill target, which I don't think is necessarily fair.

Erm, not really. When half of the players suspect you're mafia, I don't know how great that is. What I did was I asserted a certain type of evidence was completely invalid and refused to accept it.

That type of evidence

was

invalid, and if they couldn't find any actual reason to back it up, then you

did

play a great game, because while their guts were acting up, they couldn't justify lynching you.

I'll have a look at your Snow White stuff after I respond to bgg's post.

[ChannelDelibird]

CDB, will you please post everything that you can find scummy about me, so I can disprove it and help find the scum? Thank you in advance.

This about sums it up.

Way to miss my point. I thought your vote on Kichirou was for terrible reasons

1.(abandoning your supposed real suspicion for the sake of the game moving on)

2. and looked like you might have been throwing your scumbuddy under the bus. This is independent of DTF.

If that's his only reason, then I'm not sure what to think.

But, I'll answer it using my own logic

and

CDB's.

CDB's Logic:
1. If I'm not not finding scum, I probably am scum, but if I were scum, then I would know that kichirou was scum, therefore, I wouldn't be abandoning my true suspicions, because I would know kichirou was scum. You're logic is flawed.

It's entirely possible that you could have hammered Kichirou as his scumbuddy - it buys you cheap points with the town and avoids having to follow through on your "true" suspicions. If you'd had a reason to vote Kichirou, any reason at all, I'd not be giving you a hard time for it, but you had

no valid reason at all to vote for him

. "I wanted to move the game on" is not a pro-town reason to hammer anyone, even scum.

2. 4 people voted her, and none of them had any more chance of bussing than the other. This is a non-argument.

If you remove the vital element of the content of their posts, sure. I'll admit I found the Kichirou case somewhat flimsy and I think we got lucky with the lynch, but you were the only one to vote him without ANY semblance of a reason. That plus it being the hammer vote means you were more likely than the others to be bussing Kichirou.

(Don't get me wrong, right now I still think it was DTF who was bussing and you were just making a really bad vote, but there's not much in it)

My Logic:
1. If I didn't, someone would, and it sure wouldn't have been the scum who switched to their buddy, you would be barking up the wrong tree AGAIN, and the scum would profit greatly,

or

the game would end.

This assumes you are town, and it's impossible for me to reason with such bias. "I know I'm town" does not show why you were more likely to make that post as town than scum.

2. Anyone who voted kichirou could have been bussing her.

See above.

You are hypocritical.

I'm interested to see where you're going with this.

The only way you can judge whether you think people are scum or not is by finding posts that they've made that are scummy. Not fear of someone's reputation (whether it's earned or not, I'm not going to judge my own ability as a player, that's up to you), not WIFOM based on a million possible reasons why Player X got killed at night rather than Player Y, but actual things they've said and done that are more likely to have been said and done by someone looking to blend in, to mislead the town, rather than someone looking to hunt the scum.

1. There are plenty of reasons why this could be the case (though as I've said repeatedly this game, though, trying to figure out the scum's thinking on the nightkills is murky WIFOM territory): for example, it's quite possible that I've been left alive because the scum were hoping that someone would make exactly the post that you just did, implicating me. It's also possible that for whatever reason the scum thought Meji or CP might be threats later, or that they thought they could frame someone else by killing those particular people, or that Meji looked at them a bit funny, or that the scum have an irrational hatred of people whose usernames end in 'pianist'. There are a lot of possible reasons, and we have no way of deciding with any certainty at all which is the more likely.

I don't see the hypocrisy here. First quote is me asserting yet again that we can only judge on posts, not WIFOM based on nightkills. Second quote is me showing how arbitrary nightkill speculation is. I'm not discounting any possibility in the second quote, just showing that there are loads of equally plausible possibilities that make it impossible to work under any assumption regarding nightkills.

And you're logic is flawed

This doesn't make sense. You didn't know bgg was going to just hammer to get on with the game, and if you did, the pro-town move would have been to not allow him to do so. It's quite plausible that you could have been bussing Kichirou, in order to use exactly this argument ("look, I got a mafia lynched! I

can't

be scum!") to make people think you're town.

Actually, he

did

know, because I told him I would.

I'll go and check that again, but if so, that's another strike against DTF for putting Kichirou at lynch-1 in that knowledge, and it makes your behaviour, regardless of alignment, even more reprehensible.

You read the post, you even posted about it.
You allowed me to do so as well. You could very well have been stacking the votes in such a manner, that it would be inevitable that someone would switch, so you could make this very argument.

Can you explain your context here with quotes? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

You

do

have scummy posts

CDB, what will you do if DTF is lynched and is revealed innocent? I will be going after Snow White if that's the case.

I'm not going to set up tomorrow's lynch before we've seen what happens with today's. As it stands, today, I don't see Snow White as likely scum and it would take a lot for me to change my mind. (There is also the fact that someone will [probably] be nightkilled, and that will reduce the suspect pool)

It sounds like you're trying to limit our investigative skills, as well as the following quote, and many others.

What? Consider this, bgg: there is exactly one scum left in the game. Therefore, if we lynch that scum today, there will be no tomorrow because we will have won. Therefore, we should be concentrating on finding the scum today and winning rather than assuming we're going to lynch town and just plan for failure. And tell me, exactly what investigation skills am I limiting by saying that?

Not to mention ALL of the times you told us not to judge based off of NKs.

YES! YES, THAT'S EXACTLY IT! I've explained a million times how it's impossible to judge based off nightkills, and now, rather than even trying to understand, you're just going to throw it back in my face, saying that it's scummy, without explaining why I'm wrong, which is what you need to do in order to make it scummy?

I urge you to read Being a good IC, which is the wiki document that governs my play in this game. It urges, quite rightly, that as an IC I give advice regarding tactics

impartially, as truthfully as possible

, even if I am scum, and that is exactly what I am trying to do. I am speaking about nightkill speculation as an IC, and I would be saying it even if I were scum.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also,

Hi, DTF!

I noticed you addressed the semantics of my post without addressing the content! Are you hoping this argument between me and bgg will take the heat off you?

[ChannelDelibird]

Well, that shows what I know. I was going to be looking at CancerBottle in particular today as well.

I will re-read both of you open-mindedly.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also,

NOBODY VOTE YET

. We are at Lynch-or-Lose, and if one townie votes for another, the scum can hammer for the win. We have to take our time about this.

[ChannelDelibird]

So I guess we need a bit of a bump. I haven't been able to do my re-read yet but I may not need it.

Mod:

can we get a prod on bgg please? He's not checked in yet today.

Snow White - if you had to vote right now, who would you vote for?
bgg - same question.

I recall seeing a bigger hint of a connection between Kichirou and Snow White late yesterday (will check to confirm), so I would probably vote for Snow White if I had to vote now. Obviously, discussion first, though.

[ChannelDelibird]

Before I respond to your post, this is what made me a little more interested in the Snow White-Kichirou connection at the end of yesterday:

And if i named Kirichou the goon then equally could i not name bgg1996 the goon?

This quote seems like Snow White is dismissing the fact that Kichirou was actually scum, and is trying to set it up like bgg is on the same level of likely-scum as Kichirou now is, which doesn't ring true and seems like a psychological trick.

------------------

Obviously.

I have been thinking... I would rather vote CDB.

Im still baffled why im alive as of yet.

It's not hard to work out. Either you're scum, or the scum are hoping your wagon from yesterday will go through today now that DTF is confirmed town. Both make sense. I would have been shocked if you'd died last night.

Bgg1996 did not hammer me yesterday although he had the chance. This in some retro spect has clarified him for me.

This is definitely a point in bgg's favour.

Frankly i wish we had a claim. But we dont. So im going to come out and basically im a simple townie. No power role. So that we had a chance of ruling out at least someone but ce sera.

I wouldn't believe a power role claim at this stage anyway.

Cancer Bottle was killed when in my opinion if Bgg1996 was mafia then he would have benefitted from killing me as i pursued him quite harshly for implications he was a cop.

No, it makes no sense for scum to kill you if you are town, considering the amount of suspicion you've had so far.

And the more i think of Cancer's death the more reason i see to vote CDB than Bgg1996.

If i had died Cancer's main suspect (until he had been NK'd) would have died. And that i think would have shifted the focus toward CDB. These are my thoughts i could be wrong and no one has to agree with them.

Why would your death have shifted the focus towards me rather than CancerBottle or bgg?

Bgg1996 also has stated his dislike for me and was prior to DoTheFandango's lynch was going to vote me.

Why does that make him more likely to be town than scum? (Hint: it doesn't, scum don't have to kill someone they claim to suspect)

Also. This appears to be the only game Bgg1996 is playing in and he's on a lot less frequently than CDB and has trouble being active in the game to an extent in my opinion and i dont think this would happen if he had a power role such as mafia.

This is not a fair argument. bgg hasn't had a marked lack of activity, especially yesterday, and at any rate mafia have as much as if not more reason to not be active than bored vanilla town do.

So CDB. I would vote for you. And obviously i expect you to vote for me.

Why do you say you expect me to vote for you? Is that only because I said if I had to vote now I'd vote for you? Why do you think that I would go after you today as scum rather than bgg?

Regardless of

Ill vote Snow White when i see a case against her

Now you miriculously have a case? Can i see it please? My advice is to re read before you go shooting off your mouth. I can find your exact quotation if it will make you happy? And from recollection i do believe you either told bgg1996 or DTF.

I'm well aware of what I've said about you previously, and I believe I've been right about the case about you so far. However, the quote I mentioned at the top of this post occurred during the period at the end of Day 3 when I was unavailable to post (traveling home from my V/LA), and so this is the first opportunity I have had to comment on it. I'm also interested in what you mean exactly by "shooting [my] mouth off".

Also, I am

not

saying I am sure you are scum at this stage. I'm a little torn, because there are still reasons to suspect bgg, that I've mentioned before, but I think there is more of a connection between Kichirou and yourself now than there was before which is worth consideration. (Plus, DTF's alignment is proof that I have not been right so far this game and should take time to reconsider your case)

Lastly. You are an IC and as you previously said, you will play your best regardless of if your town or scum. And i dont doubt that you are intelligent enough to have set me up the entire time whereas bgg1996 has made mistakes such as the cop implication, you on the other hand have had a flawless game. Perfect by all accounts depending on the outcome today. But i consider mistakes more consistent with people being town because as town, people are not in the know.

See, I find it weird that you say I've had a "flawless game". The fact that I was barking so vociferously up the wrong tree with regards to DTF is surely concrete proof that I've had anything but a flawless game.

I must say, though, that it is completely fallacious to say that mistakes are pro-town. They're clearly not. This assumes that scum are somehow infallible because they know who is town and who is scum, but they're not. Also, you are completely ignoring the possibility that bgg's coplike hints were a failed scum tactic, which is entirely possible. Your logic has changed overnight, as well - yesterday, when bgg dropped his coplike hints, you reacted angrily and with suspicion. Today you say he's pro-town because they were mistakes. This is a contradiction in your behaviour, and it looks like you've decided that you can get me lynched today and so you're trying to get bgg on side. This is probably the strongest indication that you're scum so far, more than anything in the case yesterday or even the quote I gave at the top of this post.

(and i say people because if i say "we" god only knows but ill probably be accused of subliminal messaging and YES! Im that paranoid! lol.)

Good to see you're worried about your image.

You've had a near perfect game CDB and i was hesitant to bring it up as you were the only person to stick up for me regardless of the stick i got from 2/3 confirmed innocents that i cant blame for thinking the way they did. i find that scummy and believe i voiced those concerns a few pages back. But equally i can find these quotations is necessary.

Your contradictions continue. Yesterday you were quite clear that the case on you was a clear frame and now you "can't blame [them] for thinking the way they did".

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm not going to vote any time soon.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'll respond tomorrow, Snow White, although I was really hoping to hear something substantial from bgg today.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm all for people reading up, but for what I understood to be bgg's only game at the moment, I am not convinced it takes nearly a week to reread 15 pages. I am also acutely aware that I don't want us to post so much more than bgg that we end up getting caught in a huge argument and potential lurking bggscum can just wait until one of us votes for the other. We need to be participating equally.

So I am sorely tempted to wait until we hear from bgg to respond to your post, but we will see how it goes.

[ChannelDelibird]

Oh, and "iso" is short for "isolation". When you're reading a thread, below the Quick Reply box there is a little bar saying "Display posts from previous:" where you can select individual people from the dropdown menus and look at their posts in isolation.

[ChannelDelibird]

bgg, if you really are compiling your thoughts, then please give us some of what you are thinking even if you have not finished. The longer you continue to post purely to avoid a prod and avoid giving us your opinion, the scummier I have no choice but to believe you are.

[ChannelDelibird]

This is getting ridiculous, and needs to be sorted out either way ASAP. bgg, please give us something.

[ChannelDelibird]

Mod:

I hate to mention the word 'replacement' in a newbie game, but this game is stagnating with only 2 of us here. We need bgg to post or be replaced.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hooray! I'm glad we don't have to replace anyone. In answer to your question, bgg, if you didn't post, I would have waited until you got replaced, heard that person's opinions, and it would depend to an extent on what they said, but yes, I probably would have voted you.

That's not to say, however, that your reappearance makes me think you are town. In fact, the fact that you returned with a content post almost immediately after you were prodded suggests to me that you may well have been strategically lurking and waiting for either me or Snow White to vote for the other.

Snow White, I will have to go back and re-read your post before I can respond, as it's been a while since I last read it, but I'll do so at the earliest opportunity. I haven't forgotten!

Snow white is the most suspicious to me.

Night kills by my standards are a source of information, while not the most reliable one.
Consider this, Someone is found with a knife repeatedly stabbing a corpse, there is no solid proof that (s)he is the murderer. While this may be misleading about how faulty they can be, it is still a valid source of information.

While I take your point, we're

not

seeing somebody repeatedly stabbing a corpse. We're seeing reasons why somebody might

possibly

have wanted to stab said corpse, and you must admit that the two are vastly different. Most of the theories that have been espoused for why people have been killed in this game have been plausible, but we don't really have any way of telling which of the many mostly-equal-in-plausibility theories has more weight. As such, we have to look at what we can see in writing, concrete records of people's opinions and positions.

CDB, you have close to no scummy posts. (the ones you do have aren't that scummy. That may very well be why Snow white's suspicions are mostly made up of reasons why she thinks I'm not scummy.

This is the final round, and she seems to have half of her argument reasons why I am not scum.

This is an interesting point which I'll refer to again when I respond in detail to Snow White's post. She may be trying to buddy up to you to persuade you to lynch me rather than her.

CDB has proved to me, that he was telling the truth about when he said he always tells the truth as an IC. He however, is not always correct.

I'm glad this message got through. My experience does not mean infallibility, and it's why it's wrong for anyone to suggest that I must be scum because the IC could never be allowed to survive this far as town.

I believe snow white to be most suspicious and am growing quite bored.

Well, that's a bit rich, considering your recent antics (or lack thereof).

Seeing as it's the final day, and the pace has gone out of the game of late, could you summarise your case against her again for us?

[ChannelDelibird]

Sorry, it's been a busy few days, I'll respond to you as soon as possible, Snow White. In the meantime, what do you think of bgg's disappearance and the circumstances of his return?

bgg, are you going to answer my last question or are you going to disappear again?

[ChannelDelibird]

The question I am really trying to ask, Snow White, is do you think it is suspicious that bgg posted almost immediately after the mod prodded him?

[ChannelDelibird]

Prods are scary shit. Im not surprised he posted asap. Ive been prodded twice in 2 seperate games and i know i shift my ass into gear when i get them.

This is all true, but he posted twice purely to avoid a prod, so he knew he wasn't contributing as much as he should but he promised to hurry up and post something for us - that only came within hours of being prodded. The timing of that to me suggested heavily that he had both the time and the opportunity to post

before

the prod, and that the only reason he actually did was that he thought we were going to vote for him.

Do you find it outwardly suspicious? You've been here wayyy longer than I. I think the notion of him thinking we're just going to turn on each other at this stage is absurd. Secondly, is that put up with here? O.o

Think about it, the longer two people have to talk and argue cases while the third doesn't speak, the more chance that one of the two will say something, either deliberately or accidentally, that the other picks up on and the two start to argue about. With the third person not speaking, the two can forget the third is even there and just get into a shouting match. It's definitely plausible that scum would want to lurk in endgame and wait for one town to vote for the other, but no, it's usually not put up with becuase it's obviously good for the scum, and hence I made sure bgg got called out on it. It took longer than I wanted, though.

Dammit, I still need to go back and answer your post. This is getting ridiculous. Sorry.

[ChannelDelibird]

Ugh...completely forgot newbie games are deadlined these days. I feel terrible, especially as I was leaning towards bgg.

Well, there's a lesson that even ICs need to learn sometimes: never forget the deadline.

Well, good job stalling, bgg, I guess, though your tactics were nothing short of infuriating. I was probably too afraid of voting someone with genuine limited access for the loss to go with my instinct and vote you for lurking. Sorry, Snow White, I know this is partly my fault for taking so long to get round to responding to your post.

I'll come back to this a bit later and give a bit more detail and suggestions for you guys.

[ChannelDelibird]

Any of you who are (rightly) quite disappointed with this result, I assure you that normally this kind of ending doesn't happen (certainly, in a newbie game, the IC is usually aware of the autodeadlines). I would say, though, Xtoxm, a subtle reminder of the deadline in a vote count or some such might have been helpful, not just for me but for the newbies as well.

Now, I hope you guys will remember in future:

1) Votes based on nightkill speculation are not good votes - Snow White was town!
2) If the most experienced/proficient player is alive late game, they're not necessarily scum!

[ChannelDelibird]

And Im still curious why I got NKed

Easy. You were nightkilled because the scum thought they could hang Snow White out to dry for it, and nearly succeeded.

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I hope I'll get to play with some of you again.