DP12 JeepFest Mafia GAME OVER

[MeMe]

vote: Nox

[MeMe]

"Do anything with"

what

, exactly? Basically, DP said that roles aren't just comprised of people actually in attendance at Jeepfest so that everyone knows that a role claim like "MeMe" isn't necessarily bogus and that a role claim of "Jeep" isn't a sure thing. Without DP's statement, a mass claim might have been a possible strategy...

with

DP's statement, it isn't.

So, basically, you want to interpret DP's note as a point in favor of tentatively clearing the actual partygoers which, I believe, is exactly the type of thing DP was trying to show us is fruitless. I'm willing to wager that your role is actually in attendance -- I'm quite

un

willing, however, to go along with the notion that you're less likely to be scum because of it.

And this has nothing to do with the game -- but I just want to clarify that there were no "invitees" to Jeepfest. All GLers and 'scummers were welcome!

[MeMe]

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. When I read that part of DP's introduction, it sounded to me like the mafia would be people who were

not

attending the Jeepfest in real life (forget "invited"). Do you disagree with that?

Yes, I disagree with that. I'm not saying that your "attendees = probably town" theory is

definitely

wrong -- but I

am

saying that interpreting DP's comments as pointing to any particular group of roles as more likely to be innocent than another is, more than likely, a

mis

interpretation. Even if it winds up being true, I doubt that was DP's intent.

In order to

prevent

a mass role claim from breaking the game open, DP has also clearly stated (1) that not everyone who is actually in attendance IRL will be represented in this game and (2) that there will be townie roles in this game who are people not attending the party. Do you disagree with that?

While I believe both of these statements likely to be true, I'll point out that the second wasn't "clearly stated" by DP. He said "other well-known names" without specifying alignment.

If these statements are true, then the people who have roles that are actually attending the party are more likely to be townies. That's all I'm saying.

Well I don't see how, even if both of the statements above were accurate, that

attendees are more likely town

follows as a natural conclusion. That's all

I'm

saying.

[MeMe]

1) I can discuss whatever the hell I want to discuss.

but

2) Pointing out that someone

else

's speculation is not solid isn't even close to being synonymous with "speculating on who the mafia is role-wise."

unvote: Nox
vote: EnterYourNameHere

I'll also point out that Leonidas is the only player yet to post.

[MeMe]

yeah, there are now 9 votes, but if someone just comes along and votes, i really doubt they're mafia. at least this early in the game, isnt' killing a random townie who most likely wont' pose a threat(since he's not posting) kind of pointless? or at least, it looks that way to me.

What a weird thing to say. MS is right...a fast lynch is bad for the town, so the person who "just comes along and votes," ending the day,

should

be viewed with suspicion.

And I agree with an

FOS: on Peacebringer

for "miscounting" when SaberKitty clearly called her vote the ninth.

[MeMe]

Overreact much, PB?

[MeMe]

Yes, SaberKitty, I've seen your post.

Ditto. I've not missed a single post. Ah, the irony of SaberKitty playing "good little poster/prodder."

I'm happy with my current vote, but I am pretty interested in all of those who are still chastising Vesuvan for choosing not to claim when under pressure. Claiming should

always

be a last resort and Vesuvan did quite well talking himself out of the noose without spilling his role. Bravo, I say.

[MeMe]

OK - I can get down with that.

unvote: EnterName
vote: PBuG

[MeMe]

Just for the hell of it, I'll point out that SaberKitty has now been absent for a longer stretch of time than I was when she saw fit to point

me

out as an "inactive" and claim she hates it when "people don't play."

Under deadline, I'll keep my vote on PBuG (whom I like better as scum than the other leaders: Someone & olio)...but I wanted to get that out there.

[MeMe]

What a baby.

Regarding the night kill -- in my opinion last night's "had a go at his eyes" suggests that SaberKitty (the role, not necessarily the player) might be last night's killer.

[MeMe]

I thought that the only roles in this game had to be people who attended Jeepfest, Saberkitty wasn't one of them or otherwise she wouldn't be in this game.

Nope...

The player names are a mix of names of people who will attend the actual party and other well-known names from one (or both) of the two sites.

And neither Ataraxy nor Foolster were there, as far as I know.

[MeMe]

Vesuvan

: If I find out that someone's holding the role of SaberKitty, I'll want to take a good look at them. Why would you try to

quash

speculation stemming from the morning scene?

Nox

: SaberKitty posted about roland, not me

Someone

: No joke about SaberKitty of which I'm aware, but cats have claws and going for eyes automatically made me think of clawing out eyes. Just speculation, but I don't think it's

poor

speculation.

roland & Someone

- Why would MeMe make more sense as someone who goes for the eyes?

[MeMe]

Dur.

Gotcha.

[MeMe]

You don't.

[MeMe]

Quite.

I get it, though.

[MeMe]

An even better example is DP6, in which SaberKitty was both a player and a role.

[MeMe]

It was speculation, yes -- but the foundation for it was the fact that the eyes were the target.

Fine to disagree with me, but I was working off of mod-provided information.

[MeMe]

I'm leaving tomorrow on a week long trip. Should have net access, but if you don't spot anyone skulking in the shadows, it's probably because I'm not here.

Well, this explains your absence for next week...but not your absence for the

past

week.

Also, PeaceBringer has yet to post today.

[MeMe]

vote: Someone

Best current guess.

[MeMe]

How 'bout we just ignore that? I've changed my mind.

another reason for the unvote is nothing wrong with going by inactives. Inactives around here skate by far to often.

unvote: Someone
vote: PeaceBringer

[MeMe]

Does that mean you're only allowed one post? Or that you're uninterested in posting more today?

Don't answer if it's the former...

[MeMe]

I don't know whether to believe PeaceBringer...being caught lurking when he'd advocated lurkerwagons earlier might have been enough to inspire an excuse. He's also said that when he has information for us, it'll probably be more confusing than helpful.

Basically, what his post does is forces those who don't believe him into the position of saying,"I wanna lynch the guy who claims he can't fight back," which, if he's scum, is a very crafty play.

Whatever, though -- I can't see getting much support for that point of view.

unvote: PeaceBringer
vote: Someone

[MeMe]

He's not

that

good.

The role of mith could be easily written as evil or good, but seeing as... 1) he's the owner of mafiascum and has access to information that most of us don't and 2) is the designated moderator for most of the mafia games in face-to-face get togethers, even making custom cards for the purpose this year... I'd be more likely to guess him as being helpful than harmful in this particular theme.

My two cents.

[MeMe]

~retrieval~

[MeMe]

IGMEOY = I've got my eye on you.

unvote: Someone
vote: Nox

Can't argue with the observations that have been made. The biggest weirdness for me is that Nox says she "can't risk lynching a power role" when she had

no

problem with it -- indeed, was using "turning a blind eye" toward roland as an accusation point -- less than 12 hours prior...which, though before his technical claim,

still

came after roland's clear statement that he possessed information.

I've also noted the use of light blue in her posts twice during the game and wonder if it might be significant.

There ya go, Nox. You've heard more from me. You're welcome.

[MeMe]

MatthewV attended jeepfest.

Someone: If you're telling the truth, you know you're innocent...but you

can't

know that Nox is. And why wouldn't we learn just as much from a Nox lynch (who claims to be townie, just like you) as yours?

[MeMe]

MatthewV attended jeepfest.

Can you confirm the same in regards to Polarboy?

No, but PolarBoy's a 'scummer, MatthewV's a GLer.

[MeMe]

Um...you agree with the FOS on me but need Vesuvan to tell you why? Interesting.

Lee -- PolarBoy used to be around a lot and even served as Title Fairy right before mathcam did.

[MeMe]

It's an attempt to discredit Someone by saying that there is no way he could know that Nox is a townie. That's exactly what I'd do if I were scum in that situation - discredit the hint that is effectively turning vanilla townies into Masons.

Um...no. This was an attempt to dissuade Someone from voting for himself to protect someone that I saw no reason should be considered non-scummy.

And Fuldu said it well. My vote's still on Nox deliberately.

[MeMe]

Well, since you asked, I'll stop watching who twists what to clear it up.

I

didn't

assume or say that he knew it. I said that he

can't

know it. Big difference.

Someone: If you're telling the truth, you know you're innocent...but you

can't

know that Nox is.

And when you don't know for sure that someone's innocent, you shouldn't protect him/her by giving up your own life.

Who

did

leap to the conclusion that Someone knew Nox was innocent? Vesuvan.

Also, I think I know how Someone knows Nox is town. I'm pretty sure from that Someone is also town.

[MeMe]

MeMe:

I didn't assume or say that he knew it. I said that he

can't

know it. Big difference.

But he never said or implied that he

could

. So why say this at all?

I repeat: because when you don't know for sure that someone's innocent, you shouldn't protect him/her by giving up your own life.

[MeMe]

After a re-read of recent events, I've got a couple of things to say.

First, just in case tss

truly

isn't understanding me, I'm going to give an example to prevent us going 'round and 'round.

Johnny: I'm pretty sure this bridge is safe to cross, so I'm going to cross it.
Sally: But you can't know that bridge is safe to cross, so why risk it?

Sally's making a specific point that because Johnny can't be sure of its safety, the move to act on an assumption is a poor one. If Johnny had said he KNOWS the bridge is safe, there'd be less room for Sally's concern. The very lack of "know" in Johnny's statement shows it as an assumption that could be incorrect.

In Someone's case (if he's telling the truth), he was saying that it was better for him (a claimed townie) to die than Nox (a claimed townie)...something that I thought was a huge risk and should be pointed out as such.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Second, if tss doesn't understand the above example, I'll just have to assume that he's not interested in understanding.

tss -- I'm already wondering about your motive since you were the person to misrepresent the wording of my post...

All I saw her do was ask how, given that Someone is a plain townie, he *knows* that Nox is one too.

...when the actual wording was...

Someone: If you're telling the truth, you know you're innocent...but you

can't

know that Nox is. And why wouldn't we learn just as much from a Nox lynch (who claims to be townie, just like you) as yours?

Nowhere do I ask Someone "how he knows." What I did ask was why he'd sacrifice himself for something he

doesn't

know.

Just five posts after the one above (where you say "All I saw her do..."), you say...

We've established that her leap from "believe" to "know" was unwarranted

...which no one besides yourself even mentioned. You apparently believe that you saying something once makes it "established." You then challenged me with...

So, MeMe, why

did

you leap to the assumption that Someone knew Nox's innocence for sure? You never said.

...where, again, you use the word "leap" which is your wording, no one else's, and put it forth as evidence. I answered with "I didn't." So, you've applied actions to me that are demonstrably untrue while ignoring the fact that Vesuvan actually

did

do the thing you find so questionable, i.e. said that Someone knows Nox is innocent.

And now you're changing your tack...which is interesting. Before it was "why did you say Someone knew"? When I show you that's not what I said, you feel the need to counter with "But he never said or implied that he

could

. So why say this [know] at all?" Which I'd already explained in my answering post (and repeated right before this one, in case you'd honestly missed it). Take the bridge example. If Johnny'd said "I KNOW this bridge is safe," Sally'd be a worrywart to argue. But since Someone made it clear that it was a belief, not absolute knowledge, my use of the word is appropriate.

Basically, I've been looking at your posts as fairly "on my side" -- but now I'm wondering at your pushing of an issue that no one else is pushing while still giving the appearance of defending me.

[MeMe]

I "specified why exactly" when I placed my vote (post 306) and nothing's changed from my perspective.

I still find the blue text to be questionable. I thought that you might be gently hinting that you were SaberKitty...but you wound up claiming PolarBoy instead -- a player, I'll point out, who is no longer active enough to be considered "well-known" (a specification Dragon Phoenix placed in the opening post for non-attendees) by anyone but oldtimers. I think the name may have been selected specifically

because

he was unlikely to actually be in the game/counter-claimed but could still be argued as being well-known due to his former status. Back to the color -- you claimed that you were using the steelblue because you have an "obsession" with the color and "usually" post in online forums with it. If you can link me to evidence that you actually

do

post that way in most places, I'd consider moving my vote.

Basically: I think you've acted scummily. At worst, we lynch a townie. At best, we lynch scum.

[MeMe]

MeMe, I ask you this. If you were in my place, and you were

sure

that somebody was innocent (without actually knowing it, of course), would you at least consider voting yourself?

No way. I'd never vote myself unless I was absolutely sure the player was innocent (by virtue of me being a sane cop or a dead sane cop having investigated them...or something like that) and that their survival was more important to the game than mine.

Satisfied?

Huh. That blows that theory. For now I'll move off you.

unvote: Nox
vote: SaberKitty

[MeMe]

Because I don't understand/agree with the case against Stoofer (which I've listed as "Leo's guts" and "tss's bandwagon list" -- if there's something better, I'm all ears), but SaberKitty's earlier attempt to call attention to lurkers taken with her current status

as

a lurker I

do

understand.

[MeMe]

Guess

: food poisoning = IS (chef)

And I'd like to hear tss's explanation of what "two more scum to bag" means.

[MeMe]

tss -- that whole analysis confuses me. What I'm basically getting out of it is "everyone's kind of suspicious, but I believe MeMe -- who's also suspicious."

I'm still missing where the "two more scum to bag tomorrow" comment is explained. Specifically: who are these two scum if Kitty had been a baddie? Who are they now that we know she wasn't? And what did you mean by "more" when, at that point, we'd yet to bag

any

scum?

[MeMe]

CA -- why "follow" Leonidas? We now know that there was no investigation possible in his accusation of Stoofer, so it doesn't make sense to treat him like a cop. It's one thing to say that Axel's posts look scummy for whatever reason, but to vote him purely on Leo's say-so looks opportunistic to me.

I also see the points against Axel, but am uneasy about the "and if

he

is..." stuff (obviously). It also doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me for scum to jump out there with a wordy case against one player at this point. Basically, the game's going their way right now...why say "look at me" before even seeing if it's necessary? This could be just bad play; but it'd actually qualify as

horrible

play if Axel's scum. I've just come off a game where we were mafia together and he was careful and smart there. Doesn't mean he can't make a mistake here -- but, like I said, this would be a doozy for scum. That said, I find his points against Lee rather petty regardless of his alignment.

At this point I lean toward CA. His attempt to implicate people for "protecting" the SK was nonsensical. But there are still four players yet to check in today and, as it's getting rather necessary that we nail scum soon, I'd like to hear from everyone before we get too far in the voting.

[MeMe]

Interesting theory about Leo's role, CA. But we had two deaths last night. Are you suggesting that one of them was the work of a vigilante? And if Leo were a blocker who assumed he was successful Night 1, why would he switch targets Night 2?

Still doesn't make me want to start everything with "given CA isn't scum," but it's better than what looked like a blind follow.

[MeMe]

Ah -- forget that. I just realized he didn't vote Stoofer until Day 2. I thought he did that "and I mean it" post earlier. So your theory looks even better to me now.

[MeMe]

It looks like EYNH hasn't posted anywhere since August 6. Could he get a prod?

Also, I was thinking that PB had claimed that he's only allowed to post once a day and CA's pressuring him to post quickly was weird. But looking closely at his one post yesterday, it appears that he was planning not to drop acid tonight so that he could discuss strategy (though the wording is pretty confusing...so I'm not completely sure I'm right).

The info is very lose. I prefer not to take a trip on this night and sort out with folks what to present of images. The clue I got last night was a series of words/images some not connected to the previous. So I don't know what to make or how to help. I haven't seen anything of the day that makes me go, hmm follow that line of reasoning. So we shall see you next day if I live but I have a feeling the info is more confusing then anything.

My thought is if alive we can sort it out and if I die at least I won't confuse anyone.

Anyway, I join with CA in requesting that PB tells us what he's got.

[MeMe]

I don't think that's answerable until we hear what his EYNH/mikehart trip looks like.

[MeMe]

If PeaceBringer uses his ability, he can't contribute the following day. If he's town, that's bad -- especially if his visions are useless. I think he should tell us what he saw before deciding whether or not he should use it or even whether we think he's telling the truth.

Basically, it doesn't make any sense to me for DP to restrict a player for using an ability to the degree that PeaceBringer claims to be restricted unless the ability is exceptionally strong.

[MeMe]

So are you trying to say that we should metagame against the possibility of our mod putting a weak ability with a restriction in a game?

Um...

yeah

. But rather than the "metagame" label you put on it (which, for the record, I believe would be just fine if that's what it was, but it's not), I call it "deciding whether a claim rings true." Are you saying that I've no right to post my opinion on what I believe to be plausible? Regardless, your comments seem to indicate that you believe PeaceBringer's claimed ability to be "weak." Now that I've heard his trip, I'd have to disagree...though I

would

like to hear mikehart's reaction to it as that might change my mind.

Then we get to CA's claim and the (intentional?) misdirection you have been playing throughout the game in regard to assigning kills to specific people.

Are you saying that correct play would be to completely ignore the fact that deathscene information can be useful in figuring out the killers? Or are you just trying to capitalize on the fact that one of my guesses has been proven wrong and the other looks likely to be wrong as well? If I were a suspicious person, I'd wonder if you were trying to bully me away from making further guesses... If that is what you're attempting, it's just too bad for you that 1) failure never was a strong deterrent for me and 2) being dissuaded just makes me wonder if I'm heading in a sensitive direction.

The fact that we had a role name cop in the game indicates, to me anyway, that scum/kill methods might be guessable by name alone. DP certainly seems to agree, as he called Hy's kill method:

famous two-fingered Hy-original salute

-- and, though I don't know Hy, I'm assuming that regular GLers can confirm this as a well-known Hy thing. If they can, I think we should have MORE guessing about which roles might fit with which kills rather than pretending that trying to use mod-given information to make educated guesses could be anything but potentially helpful.

That said, the eyes-out kill was the work of an

SK

...so how could your accusation that I've been providing "(intentional?) misdirection" apply to

that

?

[MeMe]

Antrax = Doctor? Um...

vote: Axelrod

[MeMe]

HAH!

Pull up all of Axelrod's posts alone and something very interesting happens! You see the "DOC" post he quotes above...and directly preceding it (though it was more than 24 hours prior and separated by several posts by others) you'll see this one...

C

ouldn't they both be mafia?

O

bviously, bandwagoning is just one way to catch a scum, and on Day one it's far from reliable.

P

Bug has been just as bad as Someone, however, and I wouldn't be adverse to throwing a vote that way, although I will refrain at the moment.

Silly, sloppy boy.

[MeMe]

I'm eager to hear PeaceBringer's trip (if he took one).

And if Leo's got something -- well, I'll just say my ears are open wider to him now than they were yesterday.

[MeMe]

@ Leo (I think...if I'm right, he'll know what I mean)

[MeMe]

Along with Leo: Nanook & Someone have yet to check in today.

I could easily vote Shadow...but I agree that waiting for everyone's input is wise. Especially the deeper into a game we get.

[MeMe]

Well crap, Fuldu. I was sloppy and I was hoping that my stupid mistake wouldn't be caught out.

Explanation: look at my two posts -- one right after the other. What happened was I posted before reading my PMs and said that I was interested in what Leo had to share. Once I read my PMs, I saw that I'd been blocked and felt as though my first post would look really weird to Leo since why would I be asking him to share information from the prior night when I knew the information he had since I was the one he blocked (or so I thought)?

As you said, I'm smart enough not to say it for no reason -- but there was a reason and it was that my

first

post was the mistake, not my second. Anyway. Dumb. But that's all there is too it.

One thing I've been wondering and I've no reason not to ask now...

CA

: As Nox said, I didn't claim. What role did you

think

I was claiming?

Another question...

Leo

: Your Stoofer "catch" wasn't because you're a cop and, unless the game has two blockers (um....) you're not one of them either. So...what's with the confidence and "acceptance by silence" of CA's giving you the role of blocker?

I'm interested in what is up with Leonidas...and why CA is so eager to leap on me (who he's outing as mith and, according to prior comments he believes to be a pro-town power role) and turn his back on Leo (who he was worshipping yesterday). I'm wondering if there's some Shadow protection going on in his behavior today -- he joined the opposing bandwagon and now seems more than willing to out me and hop on the possibility of suspicion in my direction without waiting for my explanation.

[MeMe]

The obvious reason for Axelrod to tell roland to keep quiet is that Loudmouth, CA, and I had already said we thought mith would be town and Vesuvan had said that whatever mith is, he's sure to be powerful and that roland shouldn't share any information about him.

Basically, if Axel pressed for information on mith's identity when four others had shared opinions that mith's either town or shouldn't be exposed at the moment, he'd look like a digger. Best for scum to agree rather than to try to extract information that others are saying is best left alone.

[MeMe]

vote: The Shadow

[MeMe]

I earlier said that I was leaning toward you, Shadow. Since then, you've explained your actions as being about self-preservation rather than actually trying to lynch anyone you thought was scummy, which only added to my feelings that you're a good choice.

Don't be deceived that, just because two people are having a discussion that doesn't feature you as a topic, you've been forgotten.

[MeMe]

And, for the record, if Leo's scum I'd guess CA as being with him.

He followed him around like a puppy...when Fuldu accused him, he positioned himself to join that bandwagon...now that Shadow has OMGUSed me he's brave enough to vote me instead.

If he were on board with Fuldu's theory (which he seemed to be eager to adopt earlier), he'd be voting

with

Fuldu.

That said, I like the Shadow vote better than CA or Leo...and Fuldu's 1) gotta be a blocker and 2) his actions look more townish than not.

[MeMe]

He followed him around like a puppy...when Fuldu accused him, he positioned himself to join that bandwagon...now that Shadow has OMGUSed me he's brave enough to vote me instead.

Translation of that pronoun-riddled section:

CA followed Leo around like a puppy...when Fuldu accused Leo, CA positioned himself to join that bandwagon...now that Shadow has OMGUSed me CA's brave enough to vote me instead.

Sorry.

[MeMe]

Gah.

I'll claim now before you all go too far down this road. Yes, I'm mith. I avoided confirming because I'm on record (in my posts to roland) with what I "thought" mith's abilities could entail.

I could take over the ability of one pro-town night-killed role -- I chose roland (all before him were townies). I received his choices/results for nights 1-3 and was blocked night 4.

Fuldu -- I know your role, shall I expose it?
I can confirm the role name of one other player as being what (s)he's claimed.
The other result I have is on myself, so that doesn't do much good.

[MeMe]

And another thing: this sentence really gets on my nerves...

I think rolandofthewhite would have wanted us all to lynch MeMe.

Declaring that a dead cop would've wanted it this way is both cheap and demonstrably untrue. If roland wanted me lynched, he'd have kept voting me.

[MeMe]

I did not get a message saying I was blocked. I got a message saying that my investigation failed -- hence the "if I'm right" clause in my post.

[MeMe]

@ MeMe, Can you explain to us exactly how your role works? Now that you have used it, it shouldn't be a problem.

Not a problem...though I'm wondering at the "why" of the request.

I had 24 hours from the time stamp on the morning scene to PM DP if I wanted to take over the abilities and information of any pro-town player killed the night before -- extended time frame would be given if I warned him in advance of absence (though this was unnecessary). I PM'd him less than 10 minutes after seeing roland's role.

[MeMe]

I prefer Shadow or even Nanook to inHim.

[MeMe]

Well...you've only got one vote (I think). And you misspelled Pooky.

[MeMe]

I'd like to hear PeaceBringer's results (if he took a trip) before voting today. It'd be quite a help to be able to compare two visions as my interpretation of the first was favorable.

[MeMe]

Curious to hear from both MeMe and PeaceBringer...

I can fill in a role name for a player who's not yet claimed and, as yesterday, confirm another as being who (s)he says (s)he is.

The name I found could, in my opinion, go either way -- I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to just say it aloud to see what everyone thinks.

First, however, I'd really like to hear from PB. If you didn't take a trip,

don't make us wait to hear that

. If you did but don't want to post here yet and use up your only post of the day...well...I'm not sure what to do about that. But I'll repeat: a comparison of PB's trips would really help us. Basically, inHim's under suspicion for

being

jeep -- not because the reported vision showed anything scummy about him.

It's my opinion that if PeaceBringer did trip he should go ahead and place a vote when he posts. We might

need

it -- and if we end up lynching someone other than his votee, well that's no worse than him not voting at all.

[MeMe]

I can confirm you as Cadmium, CA.

I'll wait to expose last night's role name until a few more people state that they'd like me to -- although I'm not sure there's any harm in doing so since any of the three unclaimed probably wouldn't, at this point, claim untruthfully since there's risk of them being the one I checked. Still, there could be a reason I'm missing and I don't think there's a hurry. But I think that no one should claim role names until we've agreed on what to do.

As for flavor: after years of reminding everyone that I am the creator and one of the superior minds of online mafia, I can help the town by proving that I'm just as effective face to face. If I weren't here with my incredible body of knowledge and varied skills, there'd probably be no hope.

[MeMe]

One-shot or multi?

And is it like a daytime doc? Can you prove it by saving Nanook today? Or does the choice have to be sent in the night before/have some other requirement (don't feel like you have to say what the requirement is if there is one)?

[MeMe]

Meme: Does that mean that you can prove that CA is confirmed innocent? If so, I'd gladly hear that.

The only thing I can confirm is that CA's role name is Cadmium, as he claimed.

[MeMe]

If you object to me giving the role name I received last night, please say so within...oh...three hours along with a reason why it might be detrimental to do so.

[MeMe]

Leonidas = Werebear

[MeMe]

I'm pretty interested to hear what Leo has to say -- like I said, I could go either way on the name alone. I'd consider WB one of the best guys in real life...but it occurred to me that he's an old-timer who had been AWOL for an extended period, just like Antrax.

[MeMe]

We're one away from a lynch. I prefer that inHim NOT stop the lynch today. I agree with CA that the claim itself was pretty gutsy

and

he's had two chances to wriggle out of it:

1) when I asked him if he had to submit the choice the night before, he could have said "yeah and I chose Fuldu. damn."
2) just now...one away from a lynch...he could've just kept quiet in hopes that the lynch would go through and tomorrow he could've said "I wasn't sure what I was supposed to do 'cause CA said one thing and tss another!" The fact that he's bringing up the subject himself makes me pretty sure that he can, indeed, do what he says he can do.

If we wouldn't "no-lynch" today, then I don't think we should have a lynch

stopped

today, either. My two cents.

I'd also still like to hear from Leonidas before the day ends.

[MeMe]

InHim and Nanook are either both scum or both townies, and the same is true of MeMe and LoudmouthLee. Furthermore, exactly one of inHim and MeMe must be scum. If any one of these has his (or her, in MeMe's case) role demonstrated, all four are absolutely known.

Please please explain this. According to this (from my point of view): LoudmouthLee is innocent and inHim & Nanook are both scum -- but I'm rather unclear on how you saying so makes it "absolutely known."

Cmdr. Amazing should vig tonight, as appropriate (either inHim or LoudmouthLee, but not MeMe or Leo yet); MeMe should investigate me, and if we're both alive come morning, announce her result first thing. That way we get as much confirmation as is humanly possible while minimizing the number of mislynches.

And this doesn't make any sense to me, especially when your "inHim + Nanook = same side; LoudmouthLee + MeMe = same side; MeMe + inHim = opposite sides" statement is not forgotten.

If inHim saves Nanook, that proves inHim and, according to you, Nanook as well. By your earlier statement, that makes

me

the guilty half of your "exactly one of" assertion. But you advocate Lee's vigging rather than mine. You also indicate that if I can state your role tomorrow, you'll take that as confirmation about

me

. So...why on earth should CA vig LmL who you say has identical alignment as I do?

Now, if inHim

can't

save Nanook...that means that he's guilty and I'M innocent (according to your theory), LoudmouthLee is also innocent, and Nanook isn't.

As someone who is currently trusting inHim's claim, I have to say I'm extremely suspicious of anyone who wants to say absolutely -- but without any proof -- that we can't be playing for the same team. I can't help but wonder if the person who makes such a statement is hoping for an easy one/two innocent take-out. I mean, if you're scum, you're saying that if one of us is killed and is exposed as innocent, the other should be killed because, well, you say so. By the same token, if Lee dies and is scum, I'll be on deck because, again, you say so.

That whole post looks like extreme doubletalk to me, tss. Show me what I'm missing.

[MeMe]

Because given the choice and all else being equal, I'd rather let the person who can provide corroborative evidence for her claim on cue (if it's a true claim) be given the opportunity to do so just in case something is good and screwy. It's an extra failsafe.

Let me remind you that I DID provide evidence "on cue" -- you said that I should investigate Leonidas if I already hadn't (post 686) and I was able to give his role name (post 687). Apparently that would have been enough to prove myself to you if I'd have waited and given it

tomorrow

, but it's not enough today as you now have suggested that it may be just because I'm scum with Leo or a scum bodysnatcher. And what makes you think that everyone will buy you saying "yep -- that's my role" any more than they should buy Leonidas saying "yep -- that's my role" (if he ever gets here, that is)?

Now, if inHim can't save Nanook...that means that he's guilty and I'M innocent (according to your theory), LoudmouthLee is also innocent, and Nanook isn't.

Absolutely, but to vig or not to vig Nanook will be something of a moot question at that point, as inHim's failure to save him will mean he'll be dead. Thus, inHim is the chosen target.

Oh, dur on Nanook being dead -- but, devil's advocate here, what if the lynch goes through and he's town? Does your whole theory fall apart or will you excuse inHim's failure?

I can't help but wonder if the person who makes such a statement is hoping for an easy one/two innocent take-out.

If that were my goal, all I had to do was keep my trap shut. Nanook would have been quietly lynched, the town might be in lynch-or-lose tomorrow and I could have made exactly the same assertive post I made today in a much more advantageous position.

Well...what if Nanook and you are scum together? I don't think that's beyond the realm of possibility and then it would make perfect sense for you to propose a theory that has inHim using his ability to save scum and prove that he (and Nanook -- on your say-so) are both town. If you're town, certainly you can see that there's cause for speculation about your motivation.

Show me what I'm missing.

Consider: posit that you're town, inHim's town, LML's town (as he's the one gets vigged if Nanook survives) and Nanook is town (as allied with inHim); what then? I'm town, Someone is town, PB is probably town, Nox got a townieish PB investigation which fits with her claim, CA is town. There aren't enough people left to be scum.

This is all contingent on your pairs-theory being correct -- and I'm unconvinced that they are.

Quick question. When exactly did you acquire roland's role?

As I said before, I PM'd DP within 10 minutes of roland's death scene. DP responded within minutes.

...Nanook can hardly be town with inHim scummy.

And Nanook is surely our best bet for guinea pig, since town or scum, he and inHim must be the same. It's a two-for-none deal.

Again -- EXPLAIN THIS. Why "must" they be the same? Maybe it was explained clearly in your last post and I'm just too dense to get it -- but, if so, dumb it down a little and try again, please.

[MeMe]

Explain to me, MeMe, how we can have two pro-town role-name finders in this game? Mackay was on the town's side and is dead.

FOS: MeMe

Explain to me, Leonidas, how after taking "some time to see what happened" you think that

anyone's

said there were "two pro-town role-name finders in this game."

[MeMe]

Tell you what, Leo -- I think that you're either scum or that your lack of attention and lurking are detrimental to the game. And I don't think there can be

any

arguing with that.

I'll ask you a question, though, just for kicks and giggles.

Is it truly your opinion that my role-name finding ability -- with all but three claimed going into last night -- would have been more important for the scum to target than the role blocker? Or vigilante, for that matter?

[MeMe]

Correction: all but FOUR claimed going into last night. I knew Fuldu = nonny, but no one else should have.

[MeMe]

Exactly my feelings, Someone.

At this point, I find I'm preferring a Leo lynch to a Nanook lynch. But if there's no support for that, I'll throw in with the majority now that Leo has confirmed his role name.

[MeMe]

Gah.

I'll claim now before you all go too far down this road. Yes, I'm mith. I avoided confirming because I'm on record (in my posts to roland) with what I "thought" mith's abilities could entail.

I could take over the ability of one pro-town night-killed role -- I chose roland (all before him were townies). I received his choices/results for nights 1-3 and was blocked night 4.

Fuldu -- I know your role, shall I expose it?
I can confirm the role name of one other player as being what (s)he's claimed.
The other result I have is on myself, so that doesn't do much good.

You were saying?

[MeMe]

tss = IS

[MeMe]

I think we

probably

have three scum left -- two would be too few & four seems like too many. The presence of inHim's role means it's

possible

that we do have four scum left and it's his role that's keeping us from losing outright today. I really think three's more likely though.

I think the first order of business is to get a claim from Lee and an ability from Leo.

[MeMe]

And an ability from tss.

Yes. And an answer to this...

And why does Lee HAVE to be scum?

[MeMe]

Is tonight one of the "every other" nights you're able to block?

[MeMe]

I'm still suspicious of Leonidas and I'd really like to hear his ability claim before we go too far down any road.

We could lynch me and have inHim block it to prove his ability. I'm pretty much useless at this point as everyone's claimed and it's doubtful they're claiming incorrectly. If he fails, you all know he's scum. How does that sound?

[MeMe]

Uh -- forget that. I was thinking of CA as a kind of "safety net" -- that he could save us from a wrong lynch by vigging the other overnight, but that won't work anymore. If inHim can't/doesn't save me and I die, scum could win overnight because, even if Lee's town, he's only got a one in three shot of hitting the killer.

[MeMe]

One further note: Lee must be scum from his role claim alone. He says he blocked me night 2 and therefore thinks the no-kill was due to me being blocked. Setting aside that I'm the cop and got a result, why oh why would Lee not block me again at his next opportunity? But there were kills on night 3, when Fuldu blocked me, and every night since. Thus Lee is shown to be a liar and should die.

Lee claimed to block you Night 2 -- but hasn't told us whether or not he blocked any other night. If you're scum, he might very well have blocked you again while someone else performed the kill, though. We only have your word for it that you WEREN'T blocked -- just as we only have Lee's word for it that you WERE.

vote: the silent speaker

regardless. Lee might be scum, but I don't know that for sure. I

do

know for sure that your claimed result on me is wrong and that lynching Lee means, possibly, getting rid of the only role that can prevent a scum kill at this point (assuming Leo can't).

Here's what I think: if tss is town, he should be willing to put his money where his investigative mouth is and allow himself to be lynch-voted with inHim saving him since, according to his investigations, inHim's innocent and therefore can do what he says. If we vote tss and inHim agrees to save him, we'll (worst-case-scenario) get a town proof (inHim) and be 4 town to 3 scum tomorrow or (best-case-scenario) get two scum (tss lynched today & inHim lynched tomorrow).

Now if tss is scum (and Lee's not)...well, blocker's certainly a role scum need to get rid of to seal the win. He claims to know that Lee's lying about his ability...Lee says that he can prove his ability. Only problem is that, if Lee's town, he's pretty unlikely to survive the night unless he pegs the right person to block so, you know.

[MeMe]

Exactly -- but before the fourth vote inHim MUST say straight out that he will exercise his ability on tss. I don't want him to have any room for excuses tomorrow!

[MeMe]

Articulate the flaws you see, Nox. Right now it just looks, to me, that you're voicing opposition to a plan that

should work

-- regardless of whether you believe tss. There's an obvious answer to why you would do that if you're scum, but not if you're town.

Here's my logic: if tss is a sane cop, inHim will be able to save him. If he's not -- and he's

not

, I know because he says I'm mafia -- he (and you) are trying to get a blocker lynched: the one claimed power role left that can combat scum at night.

inHim -- please assure everyone that you plan to save tss if he gets lynched.

[MeMe]

I am the cop. No one else has claimed cop, and no one else has died and turned out to be a cop. If you think I lied and am not the cop, then you think there was NO COP IN THE GAME FROM DAY ONE.

1) We haven't yet heard Leo's claim 2) We

have

had two cop roles revealed -- just not strict

alignment

cops. Mackay found role names and Hey_Herb showed visions having to do with night actions.

The fact that it

is

lynch-or-lose -- now, because I was overridden yesterday -- is why I'm fighting this still. If inHim fails -- because of blocking issues, or worse, because he has some kind of strange godfather role -- lynching him tomorrow will be moot because there won't be a tomorrow.

This bothers me. I don't understand why, yesterday, you would say that inHim should be vigged for not saving Nanook "because he lied" but now that

you're

being asked to test your own theory on yourself, you come up with "blocking issues" and "strange godfather role" as excuses not to do so. Why weren't you worried about these yesterday?

And the fact that MeMe and LML are so insistent on my resting my life into inHim's hands makes me worry that they know something.

Um -- duh. Of course I "know something": that your claimed result on me isn't right...which makes it my logical conclusion that your result on Lee also has a rather large chance of being unreliable. So -- in my position -- would you truly believe it'd make sense for me to trust you? Or is it more sensible to be "insistent on [you] resting [your] life in inHim's hands" since you yourself have been insistent that we should follow your results (one of which is "inHim & Nanook are on the same side") like "the sheep" we are?

And once more, for emphasis:

I am the cop. No one else has claimed cop, and no one else has died and turned out to be a cop. If you think I lied and am not the cop, then you think there was NO COP IN THE GAME FROM DAY ONE. And if you think this, then Lee has a bridge to sell you, because that's a dumb thing to think.

Once more, for emphasis, two people have died and turned out to be cops. Just because they weren't alignment cops doesn't mean they weren't cops. As I've heard DP complain about games deteriorating into games of "follow the cop," I find it ridiculous that YOU think it's more logical for him to have a 1) night-action vision cop and a 2) role name cop AND a 3) alignment cop than the first two plus other strong pro-town roles.

But maybe I'm just dumb...or an idiot, eh?

[MeMe]

Leo's recent posts...

1) vote tss. If IS is the cop, I'm the pope.
2) 5 minutes later: unvote
3) 1 minute later: look how frustrated I am!
4) 23 minutes later: everyone should talk (ironic, no?); I'm uneasy about voting with MeMe -- and

very

uneasy about voting with Lee (apparently uneasiness set in within last 29 minutes)
5) 13 minutes later: IS hunts mafia so MeMe & Lee are together
6) 4 minutes later: MeMe only caught Axel because Axel told her
7) 12 minutes later: I totally believe tss and now think Lee is scum who shouldn't be lynched-saved because the ONE-SHOT VIG WHO ALREADY USED HIS ABILITY can fix it overnight anyway.

Um...can anyone say

weirdness

? Either you're scum trying to save your buddy or you're scum trying to look like you want to save someone who's going to show up as pro-town if he dies. And you've still not claimed an ability.

Your first couple of posts looked to me like you might be carrying out a daytime investigation and got tss as innocent...but the fact that you're using "tss is cop since no one else is" (again, inaccurate -- but I'll pretend you said 'alignment' cop) as part of your reason for "believing" tss -- in a half-hour turnaround -- I know that's not what you were doing. Which means you were putting on a show of assured voting...confused unvoting...talking yourself into a different perspective...and, finally, absolute assurance in the opposite direction of where you started.

unvote: tss
vote: Leonidas

If Leo's town,

I'M

the pope.

[MeMe]

Nope -- from my eyes he has to be

wrong

. I don't discount that other factors can go into IS's "results" -- IS, as a player, often operates on nothing more than pride and reputation.

I think tss is either getting bad information or is scum. I don't think that from Leo's last posts

he

can be anything OTHER than scum.

[MeMe]

To clarify -- I'm talking about tss, not Leo, in that first sentence. If I've ever said that tss must be scum (though I'm almost sure I haven't), it was irritation rather than strict logic speaking. I can't believe tss's

claimed results

and his reluctance to put himself up for a saved lynch makes me think that he doesn't quite believe them either.

As for Leo, though, can you come up with any plausible pro-town reason for his last string of posts, CA? He starts out voting for tss on the basis that IS as cop doesn't make sense and then winds up voting for Lee on the basis that IS is the paragon of mafia hunters. What changed his mind? Reading the thread? If so...how did he miss your one-shotness?

As I said, DAY COP could work as an explanation...but then his point about believing tss as a cop because no one else has claimed cop

doesn't

work.

[MeMe]

What's wrong Leo? Or are you claiming to be the pope?

[MeMe]

Mocking me (with no basis, I might add) doesn't make your posts any more sensible, they just make you look unwilling to actually have a dialogue that doesn't involve raising the emotions of the respondent -- a tool for someone in the weaker position.

--Your quick "he's scum," "wait -- he's totally believable" turnaround doesn't make any sense.
--You've still not claimed.
--tss can be both wrong AND scum. All I know for sure about him is that he's wrong about

me

.

Leo, I think your eagerness is extremely explicit. We are, in all likelihood, in lynch or lose. You want to lynch someone who claims to be able to prove his role...have directed the claimed lynch-saver not to attempt the save...and made the comment about the vigilante being able to "fix" it if Lee's town. Now that it's been called to your attention that CA can't bring the game back into balance since he's used his one-shot ability, do you stand by your directive? Or do you now think that inHim

should

perform a save?

[MeMe]

Now

there's

an interesting theory...and it would explain why neither tss nor Leo wants inHim to "prove" himself today -- as they would know that he can't if they're scum together.

But the fact that tss was the only one really expressing an interest in inHim performing a save (and advocating a vigging if he didn't) yesterday goes against it...unless he was fairly sure he'd be talked out of it...but how could he be sure of

that

?

It still remains that if inHim's town, he will be able to save a lynch -- which we will sorely need tomorrow if we make a mistake today. There's also the fact that if Lee's town, he will be able to block tonight -- which is something else we don't want to lynch away.

Therefore, it is my conclusion that...
--I'm the logical lynch for town who believes tss to be a sane cop.
--Leonidas is the logical lynch for those who don't believe that. There's a

case

for tss -- but if tss is scum, it's pretty clear that Leonidas has to be scum

with

him. But Leo can be scum

without

tss, making him the sounder choice.

Whichever of us is lynched, inHim should save. If inHim doesn't, we hope for a correct block tonight & he gets lynched tomorrow. I, of course, will be rooting for a Leo lynch rather than a MeMe lynch because, if Lee's right about inHim, we must rely on the block alone...which makes the game a gamble.

inHim -- yesterday you said

The PM doesn't limit me to one-time use, so I assume it's multiple. I send in my choice during the Day, but not through direct means. I can save Nanook, yes.

I hope that you're no longer relying on an assumption for information about your ability. Please doublecheck with DP if you haven't already and find out if you can do it two days in a row. That's vital information.

[MeMe]

Leonidas -- by weaker position I meant "without logic to stand on" -- but I think you know that. I have no trouble maintaining calm when I have nothing to hide.

Ninth townie. Um...yeah. Vote stands.

[MeMe]

inHim -- I think we must assume three. Better to be paranoid than sorry.

Leo -- had you forgotten that IS is known as the "Paragon of Mafia Hunters" when you voted him and said "if IS is the cop, I'm the next pope"?

[MeMe]

Nox -- what the heck? You agree with

Leonidas

on "most accounts"? The guy who completely reversed himself with head-spinning quickness and has made more mistakes than I can count? The

only

thing that bothers you is that he claimed townie? And you "don't care" whether inHim saves Lee? No opinion whatsoever on the subject?

In a word:

Wow

.

FOS: Nox

-- she just leapt up there for me.

[MeMe]

She's not cleared.

Please read the Hey_Herb role PM. It doesn't have to do with

role potential

, it has to do with

night actions

. So, if Nox is scum but isn't the one who performed the kill when PB checked her, she'd simply look like she's not doing anything bad that particular night.

Now, if that was the only thing that made you think she's clear, you must admit that anyone who looks at Leo's last posts and decides that he makes sense isn't paying attention to what he's spewing.

[MeMe]

Interesting that you should try so hard to avoid a LML lynch. Both he and you have a guilty result according to TSS. So for town who believes TSS to be sane, he's as good a choice as you are.

Interesting that

you

should try so hard

for

an LmL lynch if he's "as good a choice as" me. In case you missed it (and I don't think you could have as it's in the same post from which you drew the quote of mine), Lee claims to be a blocker. If he's town, that's helpful. If he's scum, tss (whom you

currently

believe) says he's lying about his ability anyway. So, what's the confusion? Oh...right. No confusion. Just the fact that, if Lee is a blocker, scum need him dead.

Would there be a cop in this game? Yes. Could IS be it? Yes, and we have no one else claiming the role. Anyway - one single role-name finder is not enough for the town.

Again. Wrong. And I'll repeat: we also had a pretty strong nightwatch role (Hey_Herb). Why do you keep pretending that, without tss, we barely had investigations?

[MeMe]

The role PM also doesn't say anything about giving clues about the role name of the person investigated, but there are clearly links between jeep and Polarboy and the trips that PeaceBringer saw. You're making PeaceBringer's role sound weaker than it is to discredit Nox...

Absolutely not, CA. I'm explaining the role exactly how DP explained it: the role PM said that Hey_Herb will get visions "related to his/her actions that night." You said that Nox was cleared by the investigation -- I pointed out that isn't so. If anything, you're making it sound like the investigation meant more than it did.

... but then you go and say that it was a strong role to discredit the silent speaker.

Actually, my exact words were, "a pretty strong nightwatch role" -- which is true. See, regularly nightwatch roles just get to see whether or not someone goes out. This one seems written to reveal what was

done

-- which makes it a

strong

nightwatch role. See?

CA -

please

don't make the mistake of reading all my posts through a veil of scumminess. I'm stating facts as I see them -- and Leo's mistakes and mind changes are inexcusably scummy.

I don't really find Leo all that scummy. I think he makes a good point that Axelrod may have clued you in on the whole COP/DOC thing. It was almost too perfect.

Sure -- this makes perfect sense. If I were scum, I probably would've been told about it. But it was really difficult to miss once the posts were pulled in order -- and I shouldn't be punished for being the one to spot it first.

[MeMe]

Give me a chance to prove my role.

Well, the only people claiming pro-town night actions are tss, you, and me. No one seems to believe that

I'd

tell the truth if I were blocked and tss says you lie. The only irrefutable proof would be if you block scum, so I hope that's what you're planning to try. Don't block me because that would put us definitely down tomorrow -- despite the fact that if you're telling the truth I will confirm being blocked.

I still think we should lynch Leo and have inHim save. I can't understand how everyone who believes tss (and, therefore, inHim) to be certainly innocent could have any KIND of a problem with that plan. It would work just like no-lynch, but we'd all know for

sure

that inHim's innocent come tomorrow.

[MeMe]

Alright. Anyone claiming that Hey_herb's visions was sufficient to help the town, coupled with Mackay's rolename finding ability, is out of their MINDS.

Well, it's really PeaceBringer's fault that we didn't get much useful from him, innit? He only used his ability twice -- and once he used it on someone who'd already claimed. Regardless, I am not out of my mind -- I know for a fact that tss is not a sane alignment cop. How? Because his result on me is WRONG!!

Besides, you say that there would be two roleblockers, yet no decent cop?

If by "you" you mean "MeMe" -- I don't completely trust Lee. But I do think that if there's not a sane alignment cop, 1 1/2 role blockers might well be one of the ways that DP balanced things.

All I know is that MeMe seems to me as if she's modeling the facts to make people believe what she wants them to believe- That she's innocent.

Please point to a place where a "modeled" a fact!

As for inhim saving a lynch, It doesnt matter to me. One way or the other. If we lynch LmL and inhim saves, inhim is proven innocent. If he doesnt, scum die.

Put "Leo" where you have "LmL" and I agree.

But of course, MeMe wouldnt want the latter, seeing as it would kill off her scum partner.

Nox -- please don't forget that I've offered up myself. Again -- if Lee's innocent, scum want him dead because he's a BLOCKER. If you think I'm scum with Lee, why not vote

me

?? I can barely believe what's going on here.

Give me a chance to prove my role.

The only irrefutable proof would be if you block scum, so I hope that's what you're planning to try.

It would be nice to have Lee block scum, but it's not irrefutable. If Lee's scum, the scum can opt not to kill. You shouldn't have missed this...

You're right, I shouldn't have missed this. I shouldn't have missed this regardless of alignment, though.

I'm leaning towards lynching Lee and having inHim save him.

But where will we be tomorrow if inHim's SCUM and Lee's INNOCENT?? Dead, that's where. And, further, where will we be tomorrow if inHim's INNOCENT and Lee's SCUM?? With no information. Why why can't you all see that holding tss accountable for his result makes sense...and that, if tss is scum, Leo's got to be WITH him??

It's hard for me to hold Leo at fault for changing his mind, since I'm doing the same thing. I'm pretty ready to vote.

But did you do it in the space of several minutes? Do you really not find it odd that he went from "No way is IS Cop" to "IS is definitely cop" as quickly as he did?? It's ludicrous.

Therefore, it is my conclusion that...
--I'm the logical lynch for town who believes tss to be a sane cop.
--Leonidas is the logical lynch for those who don't believe that. There's a

case

for tss -- but if tss is scum, it's pretty clear that Leonidas has to be scum

with

him.

But Leo can be scum

without

tss, making him the sounder choice.

Blatant lie. If TSS is not scum, he's a cop, and since Nanook's death, we know he's sane. Meaning I'm innocent (and you're scum - which you already know).

So I

cannot

be scum without TSS.

A pro-town MeMe would not have done that mistake. You're definitely scum, but it should be clear to everyone by now.

Leonidas -- for a second be reasonable, and read my posts, please. What I know for sure (for the zillionth time) is that tss's claimed result on me is wrong. He has said himself that I'm either scum with an ability (and if we're to believe NINE TOWNIES, it'd just be cruel to think DP buff up the scum with powers) a "really good guesser" (and I'd have to be extraordinary to come up with anything accurate for you seeing as you were so dang lurky up until today) or there's something "splendidly weird" going on.

It is my opinion that IF IS is pro-town, he could be affecting his own results because he's known as a guy who tenaciously sticks to an opinion regardless of logic.

Still, if you think he's "proven sane" then why is there any skittishness from those of you who believe that in putting your lives into inHim's hands?

What if it's tss, LML, MeMe?

It's definitely possible. I was thinking it was both tss and Lee for a while, and now I'm starting to think MeMe's in on it too.

And if you think it's tss/Lee/me -- please lynch tss. We'll find out the MOST that way. Secondarily, lynch me. Thirdly, lynch Lee.

Great catch, Leonidas. And this is the reason she's using to push suspicion off of tss and onto Leonidas? She's protecting him.

What the heck are you talking about here, inHim? I'm protecting tss? And where did Leo "catch" that??

I wish everyone would just take a deep breath and read the thread through -- beginning to end. Please.

And CA -- do you understand the thing about the visions now? You said PB's vision cleared Nox...I pointed out that's not true since DP specified it'd relate to actions taken on a specific night. That's not discounting the role, it's striving for accuracy so that Nox & inHim's innocence isn't taken for granted. As for me calling it "strong," that's in conjunction with "night watchman" -- though I do think that three sane cops (of varying degrees of strength) PLUS a universal backup would be way too much -- as I'm assuming that DP knew I'd go for a power role as soon as I could.

[MeMe]

Oh my word. I guess all of that was unnecessary.

And what the HELL do you mean don't save me????? I'M INNOCENT. NOT SAVING ME RESULTS IN SCUM WINNING TONIGHT IF LEE IS SCUM OR DOESN'T GET THE BLOCK RIGHT.

[MeMe]

Guys -- please.

I got three votes in the time it took me to write up that post. For a game that has had a very, very difficult time making up its mind -- don't you find that weird??

CA, Lee, tss, please don't finish me off until you read.

Please

read.

If you don't want to lynch Leo with a save by inHim, lynch tss and have inHim save him.

Oh my word -- I can't believe I'm this close to a lynch this fast.

Please

don't seal the deal. If there are ANY town players on my wagon, you've got to unvote! Just

wait

until after a thorough read!

[MeMe]

Daggum it, MeMe. I

so

want to lynch tss. BAH.

Then why the hell are you voting for ME??? And why'd you do it so FAST?

I'll

vote for tss with you!

[MeMe]

You know, that doesn't make any sense at all, inHim.

You say you've been stingy with your vote and really want to lynch tss, but then stick your vote on me less than 5 minutes after Leo does and say "of course" to not saving me??

Nox and/or inHim, please unvote me. Feel free to vote me again -- but this rush is ridiculous and will probably lose us the game.

[MeMe]

Thank you. You're

not

making a mistake.

[MeMe]

Once more lest anyone get confused that Leo's smugness equals correctness.

I know that tss is wrong because his result on me is wrong. If Lee's innocent, he'd know the same. I can't speak for inHim, but it bears noting that tss claims to have found inHim innocent -- just like he did Leonidas & Nanook.

And another thing -- let's just say that mith, jeep, Samadhi, and Antrax ARE the scum group. Leo seems to think that's an obvious mix...but not so obvious that a role name cop would be enough. I mean, which is it? Are the names a dead giveaway or do we

need

an alignment cop?

Would there be a cop in this game? Yes. Could IS be it? Yes, and we have no one else claiming the role. Anyway - one single role-name finder is not enough for the town.

According to your latest post, I'd think you'd find it quite logical that a role name cop and a night-action hint getter would be sufficient to uncover the group.

Please note that the above paragraph was intended to expose Leo's attempt to have it both ways, not an admittance of guilt. mith is

not

scum in this game. Werebear? Oh, yeah.

Nox, please. If you're town, I hope that

you're

reading through as well. Anyone advocating a rush and worrying that the evidence in the thread might make someone not vote the way he wants them to vote (yep -- talkin' about Leo) isn't reliable enough to follow.

[MeMe]

Can you

ask

?

[MeMe]

What's this what's this?

--I'm the logical lynch for town who believes tss to be a sane cop.

And yet when Nox, Leo and inHim call her bluff:

Oh my word -- I can't believe I'm this close to a lynch this fast. Please don't seal the deal. If there are ANY town players on my wagon, you've got to unvote! Just wait until after a thorough read!

tss -- please note that I said that I'm the logical lynch for those who believe you to be a sane cop. I wasn't saying that I

want

to be lynched! I will

continue

to fight against it.

I was pointing out is that those who are taking your claimed investigations at face value would have to believe that Lee and I are scum -- indeed, Leo has said something along the lines of one of us being as good a choice as the other. To be on the safe side, though, they should logically be voting the one whose claimed power is no longer helpful. See? My problem is that the votes on Lee look like scum wanting to get rid of the role that can get in their way. I

can't

get in scum's way anymore, so why would they bother wasting a lynch on me?

Think of it outside this game. If you were thinking that two players were scum together -- one claims doc and one claims townie -- you lynch the

townie

if you're town. To vote the one claiming a power role that we still need doesn't make sense. It's the "just in case we're wrong" thinking that pro-town players usually display that's missing in this scenario. What I'm getting at is that since Leo and Nox (and you, for that matter) seemed more interested in lynching Lee (blocker) than me (role name cop in a game with all role names claimed) -- well, that just doesn't look right.

Lee -- I don't get what you're suggesting or how the nine claimed townies fit into it (though I do think that's way too many and really want a prod/replacement for Someone). None of

my

investigations have been switched unless people are lying about their true role names. Or are you saying something other than that?

[MeMe]

My word, Leo -- twist words much?

The reason I've said

all along

that inHim should save today is so that he has to prove his role

now

rather than later. Read all of my posts -- they've always said that he should save today. It's Leo and Nox and, lately, inHim who've said "no" -- to saving

me

and

Lee

! Your reversals are getting more and more difficult to keep up with.

Anyway - MeMe seemed so confident about lynching tss or me, and having inHim save, that I have no doubt that she will accept the plan.

And now you're trying to use my own point about YOU against ME. See, the difference is that I know not to trust tss's investigations.

You

purport to believe them.

Still, if you think he's "proven sane" then why is there any skittishness from those of you who believe that in putting your lives into inHim's hands?

You ignore it like it's ridiculous when I point out that, if you believe him, you must believe his results...and try to say now that, if I

don't

believe him the same should be true of

me

? What?

I don't think I've ever been more misunderstood in

any

game. Every question that comes my way about a post where a player says "here MeMe says this but there she says this" I've explained how they don't mean what the poster is either thinking or trying to make it look like it seems! There have been

no

contradictions on my part. Mistakes? Yes. Contradictions? No.

Again, I think that Leo's mindchange in very little time with no one introducing any information should be

enough

to convince anyone that he's scum. Put that with everything else he's done, though? It's near irrefutable.

CA -- you say that you can't fault him for changing his mind because you're doing the same thing. You have

not

, ever in this game, done the same thing as Leonidas did with his mind change. Town people who aren't sure don't say with authority "If IS is the cop I'm the next pope" and completely change their mind to being IS's champion defender without someone convincing them in between. Town players who are on the fence say things like "tss is my best guess at the moment" or "I've changed my mind after reading/hearing what so and so has to say..." It's his attitude and the quickness with which he CHANGED it that is more than suspect. Sure, people change their minds all the time...but Leo went from being a strict vegetarian to eating a medium-rare porterhouse with equal conviction in absolutely no time flat and with no one talking him into it.

[MeMe]

Mistakes? Yes. Contradictions? No.

And, to be clear here, I'm not trying to play a little game where I retitle contradictions mistakes. When people say I've contradicted myself or try to show that posts I've made are at odds with one another, I've been able to show that's not so.

The mistakes are different episodes altogether -- like when I said that Lee could only irrefutably prove his block by blocking scum and was told it was a "blatant lie." No, it was a mistake made by a person who assumed scum will want to try to kill tonight, even if Lee's one of them.

[MeMe]

Argh.

I was told it was a "blatant lie" when I said that Leo can be scum without tss (which I still believe). It was Lee who was told it was a "blatant lie" that he can prove his role. I was just told I "shouldn't have missed this."

[MeMe]

Leonidas -- Nox became suspicious to me the minute she started saying that you make sense. If you'd bother to read my posts, you'd know that.

[MeMe]

I didn't offer myself up to get lynched in Lee's stead.

I said (again and again) that, from the perspective of people who believe that tss's results are trustworthy, I would be the logical lynch. It's that everyone who says "Lee and MeMe are equal lynches" somehow prefer to lynch Lee -- claimed blocker -- that is very very weird to me. Why? Because scum want to get rid of power roles that can get in their way. Since Lee's the one who can hamper scum if he's telling the truth, he should be left alive. Right?

I can't believe that all of you could honestly miss this point...especially when I've made it time and time again. Someone's going to have to explain to me how what I'm saying doesn't make sense, because to me it's crystal clear.

[MeMe]

My guess? She believes she's more experienced at mafia, and can dodge a bandwagon more easily that LML.

Yeah, that's exactly it. Are you

insane

? Do you honestly not understand what I've said time and again?

I'll go for it one more time...

--Two players are up for elimination and you don't think either of them's more or less likely to be scum than the other
--One claims blocker, one claims townie
--Town should want to lynch the townie -- just in case they're wrong.

How does that not make sense??

Since point three keeps getting ignored, I have to assume that those choosing to lynch the claimed blocker are not

town

but

scum

who want to make sure they're kill path is clear tonight.

[MeMe]

I'm not relying on tss's results here; I'm relying on the fact that Lee says he blocked tss, and tss says he didn't. That makes it a lot more obvious that one of them is scum than tss's claim.

Ah. OK.

But if you think Lee and tss are together, how would it make sense that they'd contradict each other? And why would tss claim a guilty investigation on Lee?

[MeMe]

And we really need to get Someone or a replacement in here. And soon.

[MeMe]

Oh. Well sure, it all looks so simply

now

.

[MeMe]

And that was in response to CA, not Leo (obviously) -- and it should have said "simple."

[MeMe]

Alright. Thinking this through.

I see how tss & Lee could both be scum.

I also see how tss & Lee could be on opposite sides and how, if we lynch the wrong one, we're in trouble.

Can we talk through who's likely to be partnered with each and see if there are any crossovers? That person (or persons) being prime suspects makes a

lot

of sense to me.

And, for the record, I still think Leo's behavior makes him the likeliest scum and will keep my vote there until I'm convinced someone else is

more

likely.

[MeMe]

I mean, separate the two players and consider partners like that -- in case they're not together.

I concede that I am the most logical partner for Lee if he's scum and tss isn't. inHim and Someone, also?

I think Leo is the most logical partner for tss and that inHim (and Nox?) could make sense there as well. inHim's recent "I'm not gonna vote anyone but tss" statements -- without actually ever placing the vote -- is really weird.

And, again, we must have Someone or a replacement. If he's town, we've got to have him. If he's scum, he's getting away with murder.

[MeMe]

Again -- if it's "not surprising" then why would you insist that we've got to have an alignment cop for it to be fair? You cannot have this both ways. Alignment cop = unnecessary if the scum group is obvious.

And post 870 has to do with inHim's actions. Why isn't Leo pushing for a lynch of inHim if he truly believes inHim to be guilty? Possibly for the same reason that he didn't trust inHim to save him...because he knows inHim can't.

And even if inHim was just posturing in the portions quoted in 870 -- of

course

I'm going to agree with him. If

Leonidas

had said "I really want to lynch tss!" I'd have said the same thing to him -- "why are you voting me then?" Duh. I can see how inHim's actions are scummy -- indeed, I'm the one who pointed out the inconsistency between his actions and words FIRST and have him as possible partners to both Leo and tss.

And Leo's swipe about me manipulating you CA is slightly hysterical. I hope that Nox, if town, recognizes that Leo's actively manipulating

her

.

And of course you're confirmed, CA. You've

been

confirmed since you took out Stoofer on the same night mafia killed someone else. Unless the mafia was allowed a two-fer one night, it's a no-brainer. And why not wait for

Someone

before you vote as well? I'd hate for him to be able to just come in and win the game by placing the fifth vote.

Here's who I'm willing to vote, in order: 1) Leonidas, 2) inHimshallibe, 3) tss, 4) LoudmouthLee 5) Nox, 6) Someone.

[MeMe]

CA -- I hope that was meant to be humorous, but it's pretty hard to see the humor in anything right now.

Just to make sure you know: I wasn't saying you were lying -- I didn't even check up on your claim about Someone posting in V/LA because I believe that everything you post is from the perspective of an innocent, not from the perspective of someone trying to misrepresent. Regardless, though, we do need him or a replacement here.

[MeMe]

Keep in mind that if inHim's scum (and it's looking like there's a damn fine chance of that given Leo's sudden desire to have him use his save as long as it's on me or Lee), the game is

definitely

lost with a wrong lynch if Lee's the one who dies. Vote inHim if you're honestly convinced it's Lee/me/inHim. Put your money where your mouths are.

Reasons scum might

not

choose to vote inHim?
--He's scum with them
--He's town, but Lee's the person who has to go

today

since inHim can't hurt them

tonight

Golly Moses. I feel like a broken record. Lee has the only claimed ability that can stop scum tonight. If he's town, scum WANT TO LYNCH HIM MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE. Why oh why isn't this obvious to anyone other than me? I thought that CA understood the logic here, at least that's what I thought from the "gotcha" -- but now he's also agreeing to a Lee lynch. What the

hell

?!

[MeMe]

Well, actually, Leo wanted to lynch Lee -- which has been a big piece of "Leo's scum" pie. He only switched to me after I kept punching the point that going after Lee when Leo claims that one choice (Lee/Me) is as good as the other didn't make sense for town. He then switched back to Lee

as soon as you suggested it

. I mean, come on. He

never

preferred to lynch me -- he just couldn't justify choosing keeping his vote on Lee until you gave him new hope.

[MeMe]

inHim -- if you can save, you should

definitely

do it today.

CA -- you didn't reply to my last post. Do you see that your comment "Leo wanted to do this before. I was the one who insisted on Lee" is

not

the full story?

[MeMe]

Firstly, MeMe, this:

It's Leo and Nox and, lately, inHim who've said "no" -- to saving me and Lee! Your reversals are getting more and more difficult to keep up with.

I was indifferent, don't you recall?

I do recall. For me, though, when I was pushing for inHim to prove his ability today and you were saying that you don't care whether he saves felt

against

my position. Regardless, I stand corrected.

And everyone please recall that earlier Leo told inHim not to save me because "you can block tomorrow -- there is still time" and inHim's response was "of course." Now Leo tells inHim

to

save me and he's wavering.

Really

, folks! This is looking more and more like two scum talking -- inHim slipped up in familiarity with Leo telling him not to save ("of course -- because we both know I can't!") and now is confused by Leo telling him

to

save me and is trying to hedge around. inHim -- don't worry too much. If you don't save me, odds are that you'll win the game tonight.

CA -- you said earlier that all of my hopes rest in Lee if I die. Yours too.

[MeMe]

I feel like I'm all talked out...I keep saying the same things over and over again and I simply can't be

lieve

that you're choosing to believe Leo over me.

Is it worth me continuing my attempts to convince you or is that your final vote of the day? This has been truly exhausting -- I've put my heart into this game and I admit to being extremely disappointed that I'm being lynched despite my innocence, not to mention my willingness to respond to every allegation against me. I'll keep it up if there's any chance it would help, CA. If there's not, please just tell me so that I can stop beating my head against the wall. I mean, if you're sure you're not going to change your mind I'll just wait for tss & Someone/replacement to get here to see if they have any questions for me.

I did have one question for you (well two -- but since you've twice declined to respond to my pointing out that Leo HAS WANTED TO LYNCH THE CLAIMED BLOCKER ALL ALONG, I'm guessing that you don't want to think about that): what did you mean by "that's the one thing I'm sure of" when you responded to inHim's question about scum numbers and "whether you're scum or not" in your last post? I mean with the obvious doubt you've got (and it's well-founded) why aren't you waiting for tss's comments on this new direction and for Someone/replacement to get here? Leo's been talking a mile a minute against me and, as you've said, they only need ONE CORRECT LYNCH. Please don't make this error. At least hear all perspectives. According to Leo -- who you're following -- neither of those players are scum, so this should be a request with which you have

no problem

complying.

[MeMe]

I appreciate you letting me know. It's kind of a relief.

[MeMe]

Ah -- kicking me when I'm down. Love that!

[MeMe]

Nox - I don't know how I can make my point of view any more clear, but I'll give it a try.

It's the fact that those of you who were voting for Lee did so even while claiming to find me

equally

scummy that's the problem. If you think I'm just as likely to be scum as Lee is, it boggles my mind that you chose to vote the one claiming blocker. I don't want to die, but I think it's crystal-clear that town should take the careful route when faced with people who are equally scummy. Since you all wouldn't back off Lee even after I'd explained that point time after time, that makes me extremely unwilling to trust that you're town. Get it straight, my point was

never

"lynch me instead of Lee!" It was "if you're town who believes tss to be sane, you should WANT to lynch me instead of Lee!"

Regarding my vote for the silent speaker -- remember the whole story, please. I

know

that tss's claimed results aren't always accurate, which might mean he's scum. I also recommended that inHim -- who tss got as innocent -- block the lynch on tss. It seemed logical to me that if anyone fully trusts tss to be sane, they should trust inHim to be innocent. If tss died, he'd be scum and inHim would be exposed as well. If he didn't, inHim would be confirmed innocent. Since I know that, if tss is town he's NOT sane, it's a foolproof plan from my point of view.

Also something to consider, Leonidas says that tss is known to be sane because of his result on Nanook -- but conveniently leaves out the fact that tss didn't GIVE that result until after Nanook was dead...so how in the WORLD does that prove sanity? At this point, tss is lower on my list of suspects that Leonidas inHim and you -- so I think it's possible he's telling the truth about his results and that they're wrong. But saying "we know he's sane" because of results on a dead guy given after the guy died wouldn't stand up in a elementary school debate.

And Nox -- I don't think you're allowed to call Someone. That's called communicating outside of the game thread (modkill territory) -- and you should definitely clear it with DP first, especially if you're town.

[MeMe]

Oh -- I didn't exactly answer your question, I see.

It's scummier to vote a blocker than a cop at this point in the game because cop, even if sane, can't do anything to stop scum overnight. A live blocker, doctor, or vigilante

can

.

Which is exactly why you should've wanted to vote me, claimed cop (who actually IS proven accurate), over Lee, claimed blocker. Clear now?

[MeMe]

Hey -- you know there's something else I just thought of regarding tss's sanity.

You all say that Lee & I are scum because tss got us guilty and that inHim's the godfather with investigation protection because tss got him innocent.

But

PeaceBringer

investigated inHim too...and his visions made it pretty clear that inHim's jeep (which inHim confirmed). If inHim were protected from investigations, how could PeaceBringer get such an accurate read on him? It would seem rather crippling if inHim were a godfather expecting to be able to claim whatever role he wanted to without fear of an investigation discrediting him.

[MeMe]

fine I will give out what I saw-sorry mike if this gives out to much cause I really have no clue on interpretation.

I start off by seeing colors
green, yellow, white, and blue


The next images is crosses, then distorted crosses.


The I start hearing sounds, song fragments then
peanuts- very fine

then i see a man who talks to people, greets people, and is smiling.

Last thin I get is a smell of diesel fumes and then the acid trip is over.

Like I said, doesn't come off as evil but the rest of it I have no clue.

Crosses, distorted crosses (avatar). Peanuts - very fine (unclear until CA uncovered their meaning). Greets people (host of jeepfest). Diesel fumes (gasoline for a jeep).

I did in fact take a trip last night. I was waiting a bit to get a feel on who to vote. I will again

vote Nanook

I tripped on Nox-

here is what I saw

first of all was sparkles of electricty

then vast ranges of snow then ice

next is an apparently large translucent animal who apparently was strutting

I here rock music at first distorted but I eventually recognize it as U2, the song is I will follow and I started humming along.
The last thing is a human shape which is just sitting still.

Apparently Nox claimed Townie- I have no idea how to intepret this stuff

And yours was good enough to make CA consider you confirmed.

How can you call them "incredibly vague"?

[MeMe]

Nox -- I didn't say the vision

did

discredit anyone. I said that an investigation-proof godfather shouldn't have

fear

of the possibility of an investigator discrediting him. See, the fact that PeaceBringer got an accurate read on inHim's role name makes me doubt that inHim could be an investigation-proof godfather as those types of godfathers should have a reasonable assumption that they can claim whoever and whatever they want to without fear that an investigation could catch him out.

I

agree

with you that it shows nothing about alignment -- but if inHim actually

is

jeep, he doesn't seem to be investigation-proof.

Here's an example to make it more clear:
--Say that inHim is jeep, investigation-proof godfather.
--He gets in a tight spot and claims to be Nox with the nightly ability to light a white candle at his altar to keep danger from a person of his choice
--PeaceBringer takes a trip that totally negates that claim

Again, just something I thought of -- but it makes perfect sense to me. But, of

course

it would, right!? I know that at least one of tss's investigations isn't accurate and I think I've uncovered some evidence that

another

one doesn't fit in with the reigning theory (that of me & Lee are scum and jeep is our godfather). As much relief as I felt yesterday at the burden of trying to be heard being lifted off me, I just can't seem to shrug it off! I think I'm genetically wired to never give up.

[MeMe]

And I fully apologize if the white candle thing has nothing to do with Wicca -- my only "knowledge" comes from movies like The Craft.

[MeMe]

It seemed logical to me that if anyone fully trusts tss to be sane, they should trust inHim to be innocent. If tss died, he'd be scum and inHim would be exposed as well.

Not if inHim is the godfather. Which I am not sold on 100%, as I have said, but I'm also unwilling to stake my life on

not

being so.

Right -- and I put it in the past tense because, at the time, I wasn't considering godfather possibility -- just your declaration that Nanook & inHim are on the same side and I'm on the opposite side.

LEE HAS STILL NOT GIVEN RESULTS. This should dispel doubt in any town's mind that he is lying about having results to give.

Certainly looking that way.

[MeMe]

<----- not "scum"

[MeMe]

Leonidas, reverse logic and misrepresentation (and lurking and ridiculous mindchanging and general jerkiness) are

your

domains. I'm doing the best I can with the hand I've been dealt and have been in the fight the

entire game

-- not just becoming rabid when a win is in sight. I wish that EVERYONE would mark that you only got interested in talking once you'd had the good fortune to have been declared "innocent" by tss, which is the

only

reason I can see for everyone deciding to ignore/forgive your behavior.

Everyone, please consider the game without tss's claimed results. Who would

you

believe to be guilty? Are my posts logical or "reverse" logical? Consider what

you'd

do if called guilty when innocent -- and see if my posts fit that. Now consider, out of all of the players you know, whether you believe Internet Stranger to be adept at hunting scum. That "Paragon of Mafia Hunters" title is self-given, I believe, and has more than a little bit of bravado and irony in it. Any who've played with him know that he pretends to be sure of himself even when he's

dead wrong

.

DP -- can we get a prod on d8P? I'd appreciate at least a checking in post.

[MeMe]

Fun fact:

Days 1-5: Leonidas posted 26 times
Day 6: Leonidas posted (so far) 47 times

[MeMe]

Player: posts days 1-5/posts day 6

Commodore Amazing: 58/27
inHimshallibe (and mikehart & EYNH): 33/22
Leonidas: 26/47
LoudmouthLee: 32/14
MeMe: 77/64 (including this one)
Nox: 49/18
the silent speaker: 56/12

And I didn't bother with Someone/d8P since his will be whatever number/1.

Those counts could be

slightly

off because I did them by scrolling through -- which kinda made me cross-eyed. But they're

close

. Leo's the

only

one with more today than for the rest of the game...and it's a LOT more. Now what do you have to say, Nox?

[MeMe]

Again (and again and again), I know that tss's results are not trustworthy because the one he claims to have on me is incorrect. That means he's either 1) lying or 2) telling the truth, but wrong.

It is only the fact that tss claims to have you as innocent that

you're

not under suspicion today. If I was leading the town today, why would that be? Because I look innocent. How could that be? Because I

am

innocent. You, on the other hand, have been on almost everyone's radar for several infractions against innocent play but that's being discounted today because you have tss on your side. Of

course

you're going to act like his investigations are non-negotiable and that anyone questioning them should be "lynched on [that] alone." If they're discounted or discredited, the only thing keeping you out of the noose is gone. Too bad it's on record that you yourself thought that trusting IS was ridiculous both in your first post of the day "suspect IS = scum" and your vote post before you realized the error of accusing him when he's trying to clear

you

.

The thread speaks for itself. Leonidas will try to pick apart my arguments and I will keep supplying them. They may get weaker as they go along...and if all I had were a vote count, you could ignore me. But I don't JUST have a vote count. Don't forget Leo's insistence that IS couldn't be cop. Don't forget Leo's insistence that the blocker be lynched. If you ignore me today and, somehow, there's a tomorrow -- don't forget who to lynch.

[MeMe]

Go ahead then, please. You two could finish me off

without

d8P's input.

[MeMe]

And, in case there's any question, that is a serious request.

If there are questions you need answered, ask them. If there's nothing I (or Leo, for that matter) can do that will get you to the right decision, then a delay is just cruel and forces me to have to hang around hoping.

I'm tired.

[MeMe]

Go ahead then, please. You two could finish me off

without

d8P's input.

Forgive my idiocy. This is the third or fourth time today I thought it was four to lynch rather than five.

And I don't understand your post, d8P. I don't know whether or not inHim can save -- so why "not not lynch" is confusing. I, of course, would prefer that the lynch (saved or not) is on someone other than me. It made sense, more than a week ago, that tss would be the logical person on whom to test his own results.

And as for the "checking" thing: I wasn't checking for blunders. I voted him and he responded that he staked a claim before anyone else did -- which is what I was checking. The easiest way to do that is to display all post by a user and then perform the find function to locate the post he referred to. Once I did that, there was no missing the COP thing right next to his DOC thing.

[MeMe]

Yeah, so I've heard.

No way to argue against the awesomeness of my actions except to WIFOM it -- if I were scum with Axel who knew it existed, why vote him

before

pointing it out? I voted him because Antrax = doctor didn't make much sense to me (just like IS = sane cop doesn't make much sense). I noticed the COP post when he made a point of placement of his DOC post.

[MeMe]

That "so I've heard" was in response to Nox's post...though it kinda works with d8P's too.

[MeMe]

Explaining that a cop is not necessary in this setting: MeMe.

Explaining that the cop is random: LML.

Identified as scum by the cop: MeMe + LML.

Explaining that the claimed cop is sane: Leonidas

Identified as not-mafia by the claimed cop: Leonidas



Really. You're going to want him called competent because that's what suits your purposes. And, as I've said (again and again and again), since tss's claimed result on me is wrong that means he's either 1) lying or 2) wrong. What is so

difficult

about this? What CHOICE do I have but to argue/believe this?

And Lee, I can't imagine that DP would have a random cop -- I don't know if I've ever seen him say it

outright

, but I'm pretty sure he's firmly in the "randomness has no place in mafia" camp. I think that, being the blowhard that IS is, he's more likely influencing his results somehow. tss -- when you put in your investigations, did you format them the same way every time? Did you sometimes add editorial? Did you shorten the names sometimes and not others? There could be clues to which other results can't be trusted if we find out how they were submitted. I also had a cop in my last mini game who got results based on what the cop himself had said regarding the investigatee in the prior day...here's the role --

Mod note: Sure, he’s a cop…but boozing has the odd effect of making familiar phrases seem loaded with importance. His investigation results are shorter regurgitations of the most recent in-thread comments he personally made about his investigatee. If he’s made no comments about the player he’s checking, the result will be “No record.”

...I think it could be something like

that

. DP's requisitioned and tweaked some of my role ideas in the past.

[MeMe]

hehe! Good ol' CS.

unvote: Leonidas
vote: Lee

Good eye, tss.

[MeMe]

unvote: Lee

[MeMe]

Shit, was that five? Sorry!

[MeMe]

Hopefully inHim already sent in the save and it's not player specific. It wasn't my intent to wreck the save if that's what I did. Really,

really

sorry.

[MeMe]

First -- I'm aware it was careless and I feel horrible -- but I can't understand why town would feel the need to

make

that post, Nox.

I'm certainly hoping Lee

is

scum. If he isn't and inHim either doesn't have a save or I screwed it up, the town has

already

lost -- a point NO ONE should be able to miss, so your statement of wanting to lynch me either way is ridiculous. There's only one way we'll still be lynching tomorrow: if Lee is scum.

So, I'm left thinking that you know very

well

that Lee is scum and your post was simple posturing.

[MeMe]

I just realized that Nox sounds as if she knows

for sure

that Lee's role is going to be revealed, i.e. that his lynch will go through.

How could she

know

that?

[MeMe]

You must be joking.

1) For the...what...

40th

time? I've haven't been "babbling about 'how we shouldnt lynch a claimed roleblocker.'" I'd been clearly explaining (that's right -- MeMe doesn't

babble

) about how those who are town shouldn't WANT to lynch the claimed blocker if those town truly believe that both the claimed blocker (Lee) and the claimed cop (me) are scum together. You can keep pretending I said something other than this and use derogatory terms to characterize my posts, but my words are easily checked. Even if you misunderstood me the first time, I've explained it plenty and there's no excuse for you to still claim to not get it.

Again -- I never wanted to be lynched in Lee's stead. He's got a bigger chance of being scum than

I

do. My point was about the scumminess of

those making the choice

to lynch a claimed blocker over proven cop while saying they believe them both to be equally scummy.

2) Did you miss the thing that made me "seem to -know- that he's scum," Nox? Check tss's last post. That makes a

huge

difference. And if you think that Lee's scum with me, why are you calling my lynching vote the "stupidest thing ever"? And you now are throwing out another ridiculous theory: that it was

planned

for me to put the lynching vote on Lee! I won't say it's the "stupidest thing in the world" but I think it's probably in the running. Or do you not recall that it could have been accomplished

long

ago?

Nox -- admit it. Your "whether or not Lee is scum" comment was weird. If Lee's lynched and town, the town is done. That you're continuing to pretend it's a possibility we'll still be playing tomorrow if I'm scum and Lee's not with your last post ("secondly, I think you're scum, regardless of whether...") just compounds the "error."

Answer this: do you think that tss's catch is crap or not?

[MeMe]

And anyway, I think I'll be done talking during twilight. If Lee's town, this is all for nothing anyway. If he's not, I'll save the headache for tomorrow.

[MeMe]

I'll just state that, if I were scum with Antrax and Luna, this would be one easy game to figure out even with

no

cops. Don't you agree? I mean, a role name cop, a night-action hint cop, an alignment cop PLUS a back-up who could (and did) turn into a cop would be overkill for such an obvious set-up. Solution? It's

not

an obvious set up.

As things stand, my hat's off to Lee and his foresight. No reason for him not to claim Luna except to make it look as though he's covering up an affiliation with me...which would only matter in the event of

his

death.

I investigated d8P last night. He is, unfortunately for me, MatthewV. I was rather hoping I'd have something other than what he claimed to report.

I'd like to hear from inHim about yesterday's protection (if he attempted it -- why it didn't work -- all that).

[MeMe]

I don't think I can go further either, Leonidas. But I don't think that your post shows this game to be balanced. Your Stoofer point isn't conclusive -- I've written roles as showing up innocent in a game without an alignment cop twice. It keeps the scum on their toes.

Even if you're sold on me being mafia (and therefore NOT a back-up), you have to admit that DP writing a game three roles that can find scum so obviously grouped together as Luna/mith/Antrax would be is rather unlikely.

--roland found me as mith N1 and voted me immediately.
--tss claims to have found me as mafia N1 and

could

have voted me immediately.
--PeaceBringer got clues about night actions and could have spotted a killing, if he'd used his ability more often.

That's pretty huge odds to combat if I were scum. As I said -- either you think that DP wrote an easy game for town to win, or this game isn't as easy as you think. Which do you, knowing DP, think is more likely?

I obviously can't see you as scum or there would've been no reason for you to hound Lee yesterday, but I'm rather surprised that you believe that DP would have

me

as scum with him. mith & Luna as part of the scum team is ridiculously oversimplified.

[MeMe]

How on earth was I "setting [you] up to look bad"?

And what was this question you got wrong? And why is this the first time we're

hearing

about the question portion of your role?

[MeMe]

Actually, we do.

and get a strange vision of the player you chose, which will be related to his/her actions that night

And Nox was doing nothing and inHim was greeting people and smiling.

Also, tss, did you take a look at what I asked you to check yesterday? Have you sent in your investigation choices the same way each time or do you sometimes shorten the name or make comments when sending in the choice?

[MeMe]

Of course, once Nox gets here I'll be dead -- so all you need to do is stall a bit and you won't

need

to answer.

But here's another thing:

Why

not

vote inHim who
1) claims to believe it's likely that
--

you

might be scum (despite challenging his blocking claim early yesterday and swinging the vote to him at the end of the day) AND
--that you might be with me (despite claiming to have a scum result on me)?
2) now adds "answers a question" to his original claim

And another:

I could've claimed that d8P were someone

other

than MatthewV (like...I don't know...Dragon Phoenix, maybe?) if I were scum. There has been enough talk about the overwhelming number of townies that trying to get him lynched probably would have been my best play today if I didn't have to tell the truth.

At least give the day 24 hours. As it is, the game's going to be gone as soon as Nox logs on if someone doesn't unvote me before that point.

vote: inHimshallibe

[MeMe]

Well that sucked.

[MeMe]

What "post"?

[MeMe]

~High-fives d8P~

Nicely played, partner.

[MeMe]

hehe.

I just liked the thought of your panic-post hanging out there all silly-like...

Sorry about that.

[MeMe]

I'm often astounded by what others label as being "beneath" me.

I'll state it for the record:

nothing

is beneath me.

[MeMe]

Let me just say I hated my role.

Ditto.

Nicely played, fellow scum. I don't really know what we could've done better (other than our first two godfathers having to be replaced). Thanks for coming in a doing an amazing job, inHim. Your original claim kept things going longer than they probably could have otherwise.

Dang townies. I can't believe you all excused Leonidas's ridiculous backtracking. I

still

think that looks incredibly scummy. Do I sound bitter? I guess that's because I

am

.

[MeMe]

As I said...hated my role. I knew I was up against it the minute I read it.

Still -- lots of fun to try! And we

almost

pulled it off...or it felt like we had a chance until Lee's death, anyway!

[MeMe]

inHim had no save -- DP posted full role information last page.