Teleportation Mafia Universe TWO (TOWN WINS)

[Jack]

Confirm.

[Jack]

I vote that this thread be called "UNIVERSE TWO" or something so that they are easier to tell apart.

[Jack]

That all sounds like a lame plan that wouldn't be fun. Besides, the mafia groups are enemies yes? So it sounds like we'd want to mix them. And if we teleport the last mafioso from this universe then we win.

[Jack]

No, it's not the best plan:

At night, your team may choose to shoot one person. You may shoot someone

in any universe that your team has a player alive in.

Win condition: You win when your team wins in EITHER universe you are in. You win a universe when you have

eliminated all other mafia team members

We want to transfer one of our mafiosos to the other universe, and have them transfer one of theirs to ours. That potentially results in mafia killing other mafia, especially since the ultimate goal is to win in both universes

[Jack]

Well, that would require having a good idea of someone who's mafia, in which case we should be lynching that person instead of teleporting.

Then again, I can see the logic to that. Our goal is to win this game, not the other and as long as we can scumhunt more effectively than the town from the other universe, a trade like that would benefit us. It would also produce some healthy competition between the two towns and it would probably be more in the spirit of the game.

I'm really fine with either plan. We do have to get the other universe to agree to it though.

In effect, it's like having two lynches. We could potentially win by the end of day 2.

From what I've read of the other universe, they aren't too quick to the uptake over there. Kind of stupid in general. Zoraster's system must have put all the crappy eggs in one basket by mistake. I doubt we need to worry about them sending over mafia, they'll probably pull one of ours in fact.

[Jack]

From what I've read of the other universe, they aren't too quick to the uptake over there. Kind of stupid in general. Zoraster's system must have put all the crappy eggs in one basket by mistake. I doubt we need to worry about them sending over mafia, they'll probably pull one of ours in fact.

lol at this. There are some pretty well-known scummers over there, such as DGB, E_K, Ojanen, farside, Plum, Raskol, Rhinox (I have read games from all of these players prior to this game, and they seem quite skilled). My guess is they're just getting their pre-game shenanigans out, so they can settle in and be rational scum-hunters later.

I think Plum might be underestimating our universe a little though, but we'll see.

Ah, I was just messing with them. I figured a few insults would help make sure they didn't go with the 'trade teleporters' gimmick.

[Jack]

Basically, I think it's better we just let the teleporters do what they want.

I agree. Letting the teleporter decide for themselves actually gives the mafia some motivation to eliminate the people who suspect them, unless they want to be transported...

For pulling we should just go for whoever their most pro-town looking player is, right?

As long as they don't have an ugly avatar.

[Jack]

Vote:Kise

[Jack]

Some of the people in the other universe still don't get that the

two mafia factions are at war with each other.

Wait Jack, how do you

know

there are two mafia factions

[Jack]

Unvote,Vote:Kairyuu

Who's to say you weren't scum proposing a sub optimal plan? It'd be nice not to be transported over to the other universe and killed by chance wouldn't it?

[Jack]

Kai, is your case on me really based on the strategy disagreement? Yours is obviously unworkable, I wouldn't need to convince the town not to do it. The teleporters aren't going to want to sacrifice themselves. I certainly wouldn't.

[Jack]

My case on you is based on the method with which you discounted the very idea of my strategy (which you're still doing now), as well as the OMGUS vote. I see no better cases, do you?

Yes. The method in which I "discounted the very idea of your strategy", aka I say that teleporter's won't want to claim and it's boring if they did. You think this is suspicious, I gather, because mafia might be motivated to step in and derail your plan. But since your plan is unworkable, why would I need to step in and derail it? This is what I just said in the last post btw.

Do you consider retaliation votes to be a scumtell?

Is your case on me just a "there isn't anything better at the moment" case?

[Jack]

See the problem is that it isn't unworkable. It would just require teamwork between the towns. Also, "because it's boring" and "unworkable" are two very different things. I see you've realized that the flippant attitude you originally adopted to blow off my idea was a bad move. Good for you. Keep working on that.

How is the plan that you just said was better than yours different from what I suggested? Minus pulling the most townie player from the other team, which I didn't address but is an obvious extension.

Your plan that I argued against didn't take into account the fact that the mafia were on different teams and wanted to eliminate each other.

And yes, OMGUS is scummy.

Why is that? I don't see how you could legitimately argue for it statistically, psychologically, or theoretically. Perhaps traditionally and dogmatically.

Finally, if there isn't anything better at the moment, that means it's the best lynch available. If there was someone I considered a better lynch than you, I'd change my vote, but either way, my vote means I'm helping to lynch you.

Yes, you lynch who you think is most likely to be mafia, however this is not the point. I implied that your case was weak, and part of your defense was "do you have anything better". That is a weak defense as I pointed out. It concedes a lack of merit in the case itself.

[Jack]

@Jack: It is better because it allows for the pulling of CONFIRMED townies WHENEVER POSSIBLE, which you absolutely refuse to acknowledge.

It is obvious that the pull should be used on their most townie player. It's far from certain that they'll claim, but possible.

In addition, my personal revision is that we DON'T try to use the teleporter as a vig unless doing so has a chance of ending the game.

So you changed your mind again?

As for the scum being on different teams, STOP REPEATING THIS WHEN I'VE ADDRESSED IT TWICE. Crosskilling is statistically improbable even in a game where both killing factions MUST kill in the same game. Giving the possibility of killing between 2 games, the likelihood of both scumteams targeting the same universe AND/OR of one scumteam hitting a member of the other is astronomically low. The fact that your plan literally relies on that happening instead of the scumteams simply assuring that they won't hit each other and decimating a town together, or just ignoring the fact that they've lost a member until they can win by pulling said member back, both of which are more likely, shows that you've either not thought about your plan AT ALL or you're deliberately trying to hurt the town.

Are lowell and the half dozen or so other people who suggested that sending across mafia would be helpful trying to hurt the town too?

The point of bringing up the fact that your original plan didn't involve the realization that the mafia could kill each other is that your accusation was based in part on a criticism of my initial suggestion, which was in response to your original plan.

Having mixed mafia groups would likely be more useful in late game. I don't know why you are making a big deal of the statistical improbability when having a confirmed innocent for an extra day doesn't do much for our odds statistically.

I don't see the strong objection to trying to take matters into our own hands and teleport out people we think are mafia, or lurkers.

And once again, may I point out that your original accusation of me was that I was mafia for shooting down your "optimal plan"? As I said earlier, you are claiming that the strategic benefits of your obviously unworkable plan are so great that I, as mafia, would have to step in and shoot them down.

For the OMGUS point, the gut reaction when scum is suspected is "Oh shit I've gotta turn this around on him/her before he/she gathers support." If the scum is not thinking properly, this will often lead to "revenge" voting, aka OMGUS.

I suppose you really believe this. But like most scum tells it is useless on its own, the situation is what is actually revealing. If someone who has been lazy for several days suddenly gets all scumhunty on the person who voted for them, that looks suspicious (although townies will do that too). But townies often omgus vote on the basis that arguments against them are obviously false, they feel that anyone making them is mafia faking a case. An inability to see inside the head of the person making the argument. And of course, sometimes they are right.

Of course it's a lot easier to say "omgus vote, mafia tell" then to try and convince the town that my post 96 reveals some mafia motivation. Especially since post 93 used the reasoning "You forgot ghost mason with Slicey. LYING SCUM! "

You're also suggesting that I was panicked by a day 1 vote

Here's the thing on your last point that you blatantly ignored. When I'm voting someone, I want them lynched. I don't care if my case is one point or a step-by-step analysis of everything they've said, I still want them dead. If my read changes, or someone else steps up as being more scummy, then I'll move the vote, but as it stands the best case around is you, and that's why you have my vote. I haven't conceded shit. Trying to argue semantics isn't going to get you anywhere with me.

Die scum die.

So, your claimed strategy is tunnel vision?

Do you think I'm trying to convince you of my innocence?

You used a rhetorical defense, which I pointed out was actually a concession. I dismissed the rhetoric, whether or not your mind is changed is not the issue.

[Jack]

OK, well, sounds like we have our strategy then. Which universe wants to Pull first?

Also, anyone voting kairyuu = silly

I suppose I should clarify that I don't find kairyuu particularly suspicious, and that the argument I'm making isn't to claim he's scum.

unvote:kairyuu

[Jack]

I like the idea of sending/receiving the scummiest or most useless players and just not lynching them. Let the scum worry about the other scum group infiltrating the universe. But honestly I doubt it will change much if both universes do the same thing with reguards to whom they teleport.

Well, this is why we should do a better job than them.

Vote:Doc Potter

Gut.

[Jack]

unvote:DocPotter, vote:Nicodemus

[Jack]

@The other universe: You guys should lynch DGB

[Jack]

That wasn't paranoia. When people vote using reasoning that could just as easily apply to themselves I often oblige them.

[Jack]

I don't know about you, but I vote for the people I find scummiest.

QFT. Regardless of faction, we need to eliminate scum.

All this talk about strategies all sound to me like plans to discourage town to actually scumhunt.

unvote:nicodemus, vote:fhqwhgads

Half your posts are talking strategy, how have you been encouraging the town to scumhunt? When you say this, it sounds like you don't remember what you've posted, perhaps because you weren't putting sincere thought into it.[/b]

[Jack]

Half your posts are talking strategy

And the other half?

Didn't know that 50% of what I said doesn't matter.

I'm confused. Do you disagree with what I said?

Yes, obviously.

All this talk about strategies all sound to me like plans to discourage town to actually scumhunt.

So, by your own claim here, half of your posts were deliberately discouraging the town from actual scumhunting.

Also, you cut out the part where I said "where have you been encouraging scumhunting" and instead you ask

me

what you did with the other half...you have no idea evidently?

[Jack]

But Elmo, my "knee jerk" reaction was to a plan that didn't take into account the basic rules of the game. The point I was making with my vote and the text you quoted (which I explained a few posts back) was that, unless the plan being argued against

is actually better

, you have a tough time arguing that someone is scum for promoting an alternate plan. You're essentially claiming foresight is scummy.

What U-turn do you refer too?

[Jack]

Doc and nico were just gut votes.

[Jack]

Jack, can you provide examples of what you are saying about fhq? That very much seemed like an opportunistic jump (especially since you don't give a case, and yes, a case INCLUDES examples of your accusations) to vote him. You are accusing him of not putting in sincere thought, can you also provide examples of where you find this to be so?

You quoted the post yourself. He said all the talk about strategy sounded like plans to discourage town from scumhunting. Many of his posts discussed strategy. He had not done significant scumhunting. Thus the insincerity. I postulated that was making a careless comment. So the "case" which you claim necessary, is in the posts I quoted, not the previous posts.

Now, as for opportunism, I'm one of the more popular votees and you used poor reasoning here.

All this talk about strategies all sound to me like plans to discourage town to actually scumhunt.

So, by your own claim here, half of your posts were deliberately discouraging the town from actual scumhunting.

This is just reaching now.

Vote: Jack

OK, this is the 2nd or third time this has come up this game. I argue a fair amount of philosophy on other forums and read some too. In those kind of arguments you say things that I guess aren't said much in mafia games.

In my vote on kairyuu, in the sentence quoted here, and in the sentence about opportunism above, I am using the logic of my opponent to make a point.

Kairyuu says mafia want to promote a poor plan, so I am mafia. I say by that logic, since his plan isn't good, he must be mafia. Fhgwads says all the strategy posts are scummy, then by that argument half of his own posts are scummy. If my accusation of fhqwads was opportunistic because...well, it's not clear why you think it's opportunistic other than disagreeing with it. But you could more easily be accused of opportunism with your faulty case.

C'est pa?

[Jack]

Mykonian in the other universe says I'm smart, for what it's worth.

[Jack]

The other universe is putting us to shame activity wise.

[Jack]

No, let me clarify: I think ENOUGH have been said about tactics. Continuing tactic talk is, in my opinion, starting to distract town atm.

This makes sense,

unvote:fhqwngads

Although I do find "we need to do this" statements are things scum like to say.

[Jack]

Vote:Nicodemus

[Jack]

@ABR: I agree with lynching DGB

[Jack]

@ABR: I agree with lynching DGB

What is it about her that makes you feel she should be lynched?

I thought her reaction to the question evilsnail (I think?) asked was unnatural. It was a long way back in that game, which is to say, on page 11 or so like we are in this game.

[Jack]

Uh, how? He accounted for everything I can see; the rules were ambiguous, and when the mod clarified, he updated the plan in response. I think that, at bare minimum, it would look dangerous enough to JackScum to get a reaction.

No, they weren't ambiguous. They clearly stated that the mafia teams were opposed to each other. I quoted that bit in my post. So the knee jerk reaction is to a plan that doesn't take into account basic features of the game. Why would a townie not have a knee jerk reaction to that?

If I catch you pouring a bottle labelled "poison" into my coffee, it doesn't matter if I actually happen to keep milk in there, right? It's your intent that's important.

But it does if

I

keep milk in there. Because then my intent is to pour milk. You would still have to show that my plan was bad, the plan that everyone else currently agrees we should do.

You pulled a U-turn between post 96 and 156 - you very clearly switch from attacking him to going "oh, I'm not really attacking him". I think you freaked out slightly, then realised your stance wasn't credible.

This shows you are skimming. Why do you ask people to comment on me when you haven't read my posts myself? Check my ISO 18 and 23. Check ISO 10-13 and see if it looks like I'm arguing that Kai is mafia.

*it would be so much nicer if it was only mafia who made bogus, poorly researched accusations, muses Jack to himself*

[Jack]

I'm getting cabin fever here.

Unvote:nicodemus, vote:DocPotter

Let's put our cards on the table. If you are in favor of putting DocPotter at lynch-1 then vote him till he is, if not then say so explicitly.

[Jack]

I'll go along with that.

unvote:dp, vote:drk

[Jack]

I could still go for Nico. But honestly, it's good that we're deadlined...

[Jack]

I could still go for Nico. But honestly, it's good that we're deadlined...

What's your case on me again? Because I can't remember.

I don't have one. I do find the passive aggressive "what's your case on me again?" in response to gut votes annoying though.

Your vote on Doc was essentially a gut vote iirc.

[Jack]

I'm getting a bit of a scum feel from Jahudo.

[Jack]

@the other universe: I think ABR is continuing to push the DGB lynch as a "mafia wouldn't keep pushing this, I must be a townie with tunnel vision" strategy.

[Jack]

It's almost like Kai never left.

[Jack]

I went and reread the first couple pages after VP's logic wins nonsense.

unvote, vote:Elmo

Skip doc potter and drk, let's lynch elmo.

If you ISO him his has 4 posts. 2 strat posts in which he generally agrees with what I was saying about using the push as a vig, and then 2 crappy cases on me based on my vote for kai and what I said about using the push as a vig.

This is the last thing he said:

Votes or even some kind of comment on Jack would be really nice from, like, most people at this point. I'd like to go over the game again, but the site's been just horrible lately, so, uh... yea, we'll see.

Hasn't shown up since.

[Jack]

VP, everything you've said about me has been said before, and argued against before.

I call my gut cases gut cases, do the same.

[Jack]

Context:

Ah.

Unvote: Jack
Vote: Maelyn

Go wagon go!

Some of the people in the other universe still don't get that the

two mafia factions are at war with each other.

Wait Jack, how do you

know

there are two mafia factions

Some of the people in the other universe still don't get that the

two mafia factions are at war with each other.

Wait Jack, how do you

know

there are two mafia factions

QFT. For some reason they're called Mafia A and Mafia B, isn't it?

Because I am clearly the day role cop and saw that one of you is a Lynch Immune Monkey Rice, while the other is Dr. Air Freshener.

You forgot ghost mason with Slicey. LYING SCUM!

Unvote, Vote: Jahudo

vote: Jack

/sigh

I dislike it when town follows scum when they shoot down an optimal plan. At least he was blatantly obvious about it.

Unvote,Vote:Kairyuu

Who's to say you weren't scum proposing a sub optimal plan? It'd be nice not to be transported over to the other universe and killed by chance wouldn't it?

The purpose of putting the posts in context is to show the tone of casual accusations. Kai says I'm scum for shooting down an optimal plan, I suggest that he could be scum for for proposing a sub optimal plan. This is an argument against his logic by using it on him, it makes a point. I said this is ISO 18, ISO 21, ISO 23, and ISO 30 (where I also pointed back to 18 and 23).

Next post after my vote on Kai:

Kai, is your case on me really based on the strategy disagreement?

=strategy disagreement is not a good basis for saying someone is scum. So I was not saying that kai was scum for proposing a sub optimal plan. I was saying that he shouldn't say someone was scum for arguing strategy.

In iso 11,12, and 13 I argue with kai without making a comment as to his alignment. I'm defending myself, arguing strategy, and feeling him out.

Nico says anyone voting for Kai is silly, I realize that since kai is arguing with me and saying I'm scum, the fact that I'm voting kai could imply that I think he's scum, and I don't so I unvote.

***********************

In summary: jesus H christ

Anyone pushing this case, at least as "obv scum look at that vote on kai", is either bad at being townie or lazy mafia.

I pick Elmo out for lazy mafia on that account, especially given the fact that he made the poor case and only has 4 posts and disappeared.

I have a bit of a gut read on Jahudo, who could be more interested in getting jack as scum talk started than actually suspicious. Of course, exploring all the options and letting people talk it out before deadline is a good pro townie action...

VP could just not be good at this.

[Jack]

Day 1 Vote Count

animorpherv1 ( 0 )
Anon ( 0 )
DeathRowKitty ( 1 ) Lowell
DocPotter ( 6 ) Ellibereth Nicodemus fhqwhads Maelyn Jahudo animorpherv1
Starbuck ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 1 ) Anon
Elmo ( 1 ) Jack
fhqwhads ( 0 )
Jack ( 4 ) Elmo Starbuck DocPotter VP Baltar
Jahudo ( 0 )
VP Baltar ( 0 )
Kise ( 0 )
Lowell ( 0 )
Maelyn ( 0 )
Nicodemus ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 2 ) Kise DeathRowKitty
Total ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am EST

So you're saying your initial vote was to provide social commentary on the state of the game at that point?

Making arguments does not necessarily mean you are being convincing. Rolling your eyes even less so.

[Jack]

So you're saying your initial vote was to provide social commentary on the state of the game at that point?

VP, I'd like to apologize for being a bit insulting towards you in that post. I was just annoyed at having the same accusation brought up for the 4th time.

To answer your question: no, I was not providing social commentary on the state of the game at that point.

Let's take an example. Person A says:

Person B, you are mafia because you have switched your vote around a lot.

Person B can respond like this:

You're implying that I was hopping from wagon to wagon because I didn't really believe in any of them, and that that indicaties that I am scum just trying to get anyone lynched. Although you don't actually say why you think it is scummy, you just make the statement.

As a matter of fact I switched my vote in ISO 5 because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

I switched my vote in ISO 8 because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

I switched my vote in ISO 15 because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Additionally if you check my meta, I often change my vote around day 1 as town, here are the links to example games for your convenience:

link 1
link 2
link 3

And no, I don't mind spending half an hour defending myself on page four vs a meaningless accusation, and don't think people will find this lengthy post overdefensive, I actually enjoy doing all your work for you.

Or person B could say:

Who's to say you aren't mafia since you've been switching your vote around?

This makes the point that the reasoning A is using applies just as well to A, and that he would need to flesh out his reasoning to make the vote legitimate.


********

You might argue that I wasn't doing that in my vote on Kai. But I plainly argued that I did in the previous post, and in many other previous posts.

You could say I shouldn't have voted him, but given the context (shown by the other quotes I posted) it makes sense. It was not a serious voting phase. People were not trying to lynch other people.

I think that deals with the "voted kai" part of the accusation (it should have been dealt with by ISO 18, but that's water under the bridge now).

The other part was the claim about the panicked reaction to Kai's breaking strategy. The "voted kai" seems to be the major supporter of that theory, but one could possibly cite my other posts, namely ISO 2,3, and 4, where I comment that:

1) teleporters claiming to be pulled and then killed doesn't sound like fun. Several other people made this comment.
2) Using the push as a vig could kick mafia out of our universe. Several other people made this comment.
3) If the mafia mix, we have the potential of cross kills (and we do, in the scenario that we swap mafia and the other townie universe wins). Several other people made this comment as well.

So, what part of those posts indicate panic, and what part of the other peoples posts don't? Note that you still deal with the difficulty I pointed out to Kai, namely that without showing a significant advantage from one plan to the other (if you did you would have to argue that we actually adopt that plan, which we haven't currently) your argument is going to be inherently weak. Because instead of saying "Jack is arguing against a much better plan because he's mafia" you have to say "Jack thinks kai's plan is much better (as evidenced by such and such posts) but is arguing for his plan which he thinks is worse, because he is mafia".

[Jack]

Because it did. He knew that, and he probably took into account the very small chance they would crosskill each other, like I explained to you.

I apparently don't know how to read. It's 2 teleports for 1 pull. I was also under the impression that the scumteam was a joint team with a kill per universe,

He took into account the possibility that the scum would crosskill when he thought the were a joint team?

Those are just horrible reasons not to go with Kai's plan. The mafia are highly unlikely to crosskill at all, and even if they did, it doesn't particularly help us if they crosskill in the other universe, as long as they're gone from this one. You can't just say "if you don't agree with me, you don't understand the setup" and expect people not to call bullshit, because it is; your stated reasons for going against Kai's plan at that point were terrible. When someone gives terrible, unnatural reasons for arguing against a plan, the logical conclusion is that they're looking for ways to argue against it rather than genuinely disagreeing. I cannot believe you, as town, would not take two minutes to think about e.g. how likely a crosskill actually is and therefore subsequently use that as a supporting reason for your very vocal stance against Kai's plan. You also tried to manipulate the other universe into not going along with Kai's plan, forcing us to do the same - a townie has absolutely no business doing that, ever.

This is what you said at the time:

Actually, the

best way to use the teleport is probably as a directed vig.

That is, use it as a second lynch. The teleporter should probably just push out whoever gets the second highest number of votes when we lynch, or something. I'm not sure what we do about pulling.

I think Jack's point is quite interesting.

While there's 3 of a mafia group alive, they'd probably kill in the universe where they had 2 members if they were split (unless they thought they'd be teleported out soon). If there were only two mafia alive, though, they might switch if they had better chances over there. So if we either teleported one and lynched one, or teleported two, we might not get a nightkill here, which would be a big win. That's if the other town don't send us any wee beasties, of course.

Also it's Teleportation Mafia. I kind of signed up for some teleportation antics :V

You say the best way to use the teleporter is as a directed vig. I wanted to use the teleporter as a directed vig, kai didn't.

If we swap mafia, and one of the universes wins before the other, one, then the mafia from the closed universe will have to kill here. That equals potential crosskills. If we have 5 alive, and 1 of each mafia, isn't that better than 5 alive, 2 of our mafia? Tell me it isn't.


**************

Elmo, why did you respond to my initial questions with claims that have been answered exhaustively in two giant posts? You just skipped them. Because you are faking it. Just like you didn't check up on what you said about the strategy originally.

[Jack]

Obviously I still disagree with you over your vote Kai thing, and Elmo is mostly right about your overall voting record, which is quite strange.

My voting record is nothing exemplary, but neither is anyone's. His voting record is "Vote:Jack" for example. And him singling out my record is just shows that he isn't interested in hunting for mafia.

I really don't understand your vote on Elmo beyond OMGUS, which seems to be a recurring trend for you this game. Do you really think he's scum or you just disagree with his case on you?

It isn't OMGUS, since I didn't vote him when he initially made the case. I only voted him when I reread the first couple days, and noticed how scummy he would have to be to call me out on disagreeing with kai's plan when he was on my side of the argument. I noticed that he'd been lurking like mad too.

Basically he's following a playstyle that some people adopt. You lurk, but when you do post you make them big posts, so it seems like you are contributing. I checked a game where he was scum (the bottom one on his wiki page) and he posted like this and afterwards said it wasn't his pro town meta to post that way.

I don't feel he is building his case in an honest way. He contradicts his earlier opinion, and shows more care for rhetoric and making the case sound good than in exploring the possibilities, even to the point of skipping the two big posts I made explaining exactly the part that he is saying "Just

why

?" about in his accusation.

1) I don't care if it sounds fun or not. If it helps the town win, then it's the best course of action.
2) the vig push plan is nowhere near as guaranteed as Kai's plan since we would have no clue if we were successful or not until the pushed player was killed.
3) no matter how much you repeat this, it's still highly unlikely that the mafia would crosskill and it is certainly not something that I would want to bank on.

1) We can agree to disagree here. I play to have fun, winning is usually whats fun, but not the primary. Elmo wanted some "teleportation antics" too as he said.
2) Lynching isn't anywhere near guaranteed. His plan has limited usefulness.
3) It's unlikely that the cleared innocent is someone we want to lynch. One universe will probably close before the other, don't you think? And if it did, and we had mixed scum, they could kill each other (and would have to to win).

[Jack]

Dear Denizens of Universe 2,

Your stalling worthy lynches is not viewed favorably. DocPotter is keeping a low profile. Get the job gone. You need to lynch, teleport me, AND we have to lynch ABR here. The deadline is really really tight.

Get the job done ASAP,

Dripping "I'm on my way" Goofball

Vote for Elmo instead of me when you get here.

unvote, vote:Doc

[Jack]

Vote:Elmo

[Jack]

Re Jacks vote: Seriously? No reason? You do know we've exited the RVS? I was obviously wrong about you.

You didn't read the end of yesterday? Scummy. Particularly since most of the other votes reference yesterday as the reason.

[Jack]

Starbuck is probably scum too. Starbuck and Elmo.

[Jack]

Got a case Jack? I'm still working on my notepad document on you.

In your notepad you can start with where you accused me yesterday, and then only quoted a single sentence from my reply. You then posted nothing but one liners the rest of the day, and now you are "going off your case from yesterday" which you couldn't defend, and "working on a document on me" which is scum talk for "searching for something I can call suspicious". Seriously, I know some townies do it to conform to their ideas about what a "case" is, but it lacks sincerity. Townies should know why they suspect someone, or call it gut.

[Jack]

There is, however, a nice case on Jack. I'll even take a page out of his book and make a case Jack-style

I lolled.

What are you lolling about? This is your only vote from yesterday:

vote: DocPotter bandwagon ftw!

unvote

I'll revise my vote.

vote:Elmo

bandwagon ftw!

[Jack]

Let's stop dilly dallying around with these scum lists and start voting. We're quicklynching in everything but name already, there's no real discussion here. Elmo isn't going to show up for a while and when he does he's going to make a big long post that ignores crucial previous posts, I'm going to argue against it and everyone else is going to skip it. VP has already said he isn't interested in arguing. Starbuck skipped my count argument last time and is now "taking notes". Etc, etc.

[Jack]

Jack, have you ever played with Elmo before?

Possibly, I don't remember.

[Jack]

I suggest you check to see if his posting style in this game is within his norm then (hint: it is).

Have you ever played with me before?

I knew what your question was (no need to hint). I talked about yesterday.

[Jack]

I'm not attacking you over playstyle so much as you being scum in this game, so I don't need to meta you at all.

That's nice. I wasn't attacking Elmo over playstyle, I was just showing why we should be lynching now. Let's have all the lurking types throw down and give their reasons. Scum lists are fine and all, but we aren't lynching maelyn today now are we/

[Jack]

Good god, kill me now.

[Jack]

No no, do a PBPA, and be sure to include lots of commentary about how horrid and wearisome and ooooh now that I think about it I could really go for a so-and-so lynch my skin is positively crawling!

[Jack]

@the other universe:

I don't know about evilsnails alignment, but I can say that playing styles do change after a long absence. If I'd been asked that question at the beginning of this game I'd probably have said I lurked as mafia, but I've hardly lurked at all this game.

[Jack]

My gut grumbled at Jack for a reason. Shooting down a strategy (Kai's?) came across as territorial. Town already run the game so it's mafia's mission to take over the land. See what I did there? In more serious words, I wouldn't be bother as much if you just offered your own suggestion, but trying to put aside another [good] strategy would be something scum do to make sure they control the flow of things, obviously. I speed-readed through the thread, but I'm pretty sure I didn't see you commenting much more past the initial few pages on how to pimp this teleportation thing. Might be an old & dreaded subject, but as of now, have your thoughts changed on what the teleporters should do?

They should use the teleport as a vig and use the pull to grab the most townie player from the other universe.

The fact is that what I said we should do with the teleporters is what we

are

doing with them, that kai's strategy was plainly silly from the outset, and that numerous people agreed with me at the time.

ok, that's a brief summary, but we have been over it 8 times. Apparently I was terrified, wet my pants, and flung out an insanely illogical plan to counter what I thought was breaking strategy. There's the other side of it (being an unbiased reporter now). Oh, and everyone I've argued about it with has quit the argument but kept voting, while, ironically, suspecting me for making gut votes (which I actually call gut votes, because...they are...)



Jahudo is kind of moot now, and I said something about it at some point.

Also, Nico asked something here:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 67#2090867

Answered 4 times at with exponentially increasing lengthiness.

[Jack]

4 times before or after Nico asked? I iso'd you and searched for my name and got nothing. Either you didn't comment on your RVS(?) vote on me or you misspelled my name...

My bad, I thought it was the other vote that people keep asking me about.

No, I never answered the question about my blatant omgus early vote. Because omgus isn't scummy and it really isn't if it's blatant, an empty vote ditched a short time later with no mention of it, and on page 4 of a no-scumhunting yet game.

[Jack]

OH, NOW I get it, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA.

Vote: Jack

The teacher tells the class to pick a number between one and a hundred. The number closest to half of the average gets five bonus points on the next test. What number do you pick? It has to be an integer.

[Jack]

Plum and VP, you can answer the question I asked Kise too. It's important.

[Jack]

And Nicodemus I see browsing, what are you thinking about Nicodemus?

[Jack]

Day 2 Vote Count

animorpherv1 ( 1 ) Anon
Anon ( 0 )
DeathRowKitty ( 0 )
Starbuck ( 0 )
Plum ( 0 )
Elmo ( 1 ) Lowell
fhqwhads ( 0 )
Jack ( 6 ) DeathRowKitty Starbuck Nicodemus Plum Kise VP Baltar
VP Baltar ( 0 )
Kise ( 0 )
Lowell ( 0 )
Maelyn ( 0 )
Nicodemus ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 5 ) fhqwhads Maelyn animorpherv1 Elmo Jack
Total ( 13 )

With 13 alive, 7 needed to lynch.
Deadline: Feb 22nd 19:00 EST

---------[]

???

[Jack]

Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim can take a lifetime.

VP, you seem like a nice guy, but I don't like having my intelligence insulted.

As mafia, I always write my fakeclaim on day 1, and edit as the game goes on. If you don't do that you're retarded, I'm not retarded.

What number would you pick? It is actually relevant.

[Jack]

Scum confirmed. Someone hammer.

I'd like to read over the thread and name my top three suspects and why, just for the "I told you so's" if I'm right.

[Jack]

VP, you seem like a nice guy, but I don't like having my intelligence insulted.

Thanks, you too. It's a shame we couldn't have been on the same team.

I'd like to read over the thread and name my top three suspects and why, just for the "I told you so's" if I'm right.

So, you don't know who you suspect and why? interesting.

---------[]

Nico and Elmo are scum, but I have to figure out the third and write up a case.

[Jack]

PBPA (sort of) on nico

First nine or so posts are discussing strategy. He is very supportive of my suggestions, quote: "Exactly" in response to my post.

In ISO 9 he quotes me and Elmo talking about there being three mafia. How did you guys know there were 3 mafia, oh scummy!

Votes me, fos's elmo.

Next few posts discussing strategy. He is very willing to discuss strategy.

Votes drk for scumhunting in the wrong universe. nico hasn't scumhunted. He doesn't post for a while and is prodded.

ISO 19 is first analysis, but it is poor. He seriously questions my rvs vote as blatant omgus. A bit of hypocrisy, not real scumhunting imo.

Nothing more really till today, when he opportunistically votes me and again fos's elmo. He uses "scum can day talk" as part of the evidence. Very non obvious, I had to hunt for it in the OP. He didn't have to check up on the "how do you know there are three mafia?" think because the mod corrected him. Ergo, he knows scum could day talk because he's scum, and he was making up that thing about "how do you know there are three mafia" because he's scum.

Fos'ing his mafia partner for weak distancing.

I'll get to elmo next.

[Jack]

The numbers test is an nth order thinking question. 25 is a 1st order pick, you assume everyone is going to pick randomly. 12 would be a 2nd order pick, you assume everyone is going to think to the first order, so you pick close to the new average, and so on.

I was asking to help me judge how serious people were when they said my post was a scum claim.

Nico picked 25 despite making this post earlier though:

Mykonian in the other universe says I'm smart, for what it's worth.

Maybe you didn't read that right, Jack.

@ the other universe

. Jack is trying to be smart and manipulative.

Town doesn't manipulate. Jack is scum.

Nice misrepresentation of mykonian.

This however I find hilarious beyond all description.

So I'm not sure how useful it is really.

[Jack]

Nothing more really till today, when he opportunistically votes me and again fos's elmo. He uses "scum can day talk" as part of the evidence. Very non obvious, I had to hunt for it in the OP. He didn't have to check up on the "how do you know there are three mafia?" think because the mod corrected him. Ergo, he knows scum could day talk because he's scum, and he was making up that thing about "how do you know there are three mafia" because he's scum.

Just to touch on this: I knew mafia could day talk because I read the set-up post, and day-talking stuck out to me as a major boost to scum. I did not know that there were three mafia per team because this information was not in the set-up post when I voted you.

Now please, die.

Which setup post, this one?

Universe 2:
1-shot Mafia B Teleporter
Mafia B Goons x 2

viewing preview:

Ani, I would really like to write up my case on Elmo in more depth and to read through to figure the final mafia.

[Jack]

Day 2 Vote Count

animorpherv1 ( 1 ) Anon
Anon ( 0 )
DeathRowKitty ( 0 )
Starbuck ( 0 )
Plum ( 0 )
Elmo ( 1 ) Lowell
fhqwhads ( 0 )
Jack ( 6 ) DeathRowKitty Starbuck Nicodemus Plum Kise VP Baltar
VP Baltar ( 0 )
Kise ( 0 )
Lowell ( 0 )
Maelyn ( 0 )
Nicodemus ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 5 ) fhqwhads Maelyn animorpherv1 Elmo Jack
Total ( 13 )

With 13 alive, 7 needed to lynch.
Deadline: Feb 22nd 19:00 EST

The sign-up had the full setup.

The second posts of each game have now had the setups added.

I'll give you credit for that Nico, and reconsider as I reread. Unfortunately, removing one point against you rarely changes the overall opinion. Your claim to find it suspicious that we knew there were three mafia is very forced, especially since there were two of us that said it.

Had some thoughts while I was away, I'll say something about:

Lowell: I think he is townie, even though I have a gut bias against people who are playing sensible while the other people are being silly. I tend to see it as scum cruising through the game while townies get themselves lynched.

VP baltar: Kind of annoying, but Kai seemed pretty town and VP is very very confidant in my guilt for him to be mafia. Wifom, but that's my gut read.

Will get to elmo in a minute.

[Jack]

OK, elmo.

First a quote of me answering a question about my case on him yesterday:

It isn't OMGUS, since I didn't vote him when he initially made the case. I only voted him when I reread the first couple days, and noticed how scummy he would have to be to call me out on disagreeing with kai's plan when he was on my side of the argument. I noticed that he'd been lurking like mad too.

Basically he's following a playstyle that some people adopt. You lurk, but when you do post you make them big posts, so it seems like you are contributing. I checked a game where he was scum (the bottom one on his wiki page) and he posted like this and afterwards said it wasn't his pro town meta to post that way.

I don't feel he is building his case in an honest way. He contradicts his earlier opinion, and shows more care for rhetoric and making the case sound good than in exploring the possibilities, even to the point of skipping the two big posts I made explaining exactly the part that he is saying "Just why?" about in his accusation.

Note that this was in response to a post claiming my vote was OMGUS, which is clearly false given the delay. I also note that I took a look at Elmo's meta, which VP didn't read as you can see by his day 2 suggestion that I check elmo's meta. This is the standard quality of the attacks on my case on elmo.

Now, lets lay out the sequence of events.

331 is me abandoning the doc potter and drk wagons and voting elmo, after rereading in response to VP's accusation.

VP finds me very scummy so I lay out in very great detail exactly why I posted what I did. 347 and 353 are the posts. They address at length:

The state of the game at the point of my vote on Kai, the reason I voted Kai, the reason I unvoted Kai etc. I also point out the posts where I explained it previously, as I had done previously in response to starbuck.

Now, I saw elmo in the theme park at 2:10. At 3:09 he makes his post. It's safe to assume he had time to read. He ignores 347 and 353 and ask questions that were answered in those posts, despite quoting posts from other people in that area. He uses poor reasoning. It is very obvious reading it that he is faking the case. If you can't tell that then you haven't seen mafia faking a lengthy case before, or are just blinded.

In particular, this bit:

If you don't think someone's scum, why vote them and suggest they're scum? Just

why

?

Seriously, read this and tell me that townie Elmo read 347 and 353.


To sum up Elmo's posting:

2 strategy posts, agreeing with what I said about the strategy. 2 attacks on me with poor reasoning. Disappears. Comes back, ignores relevant posts, makes a fake case. Has not looked anywhere else for scum.

Of course you have to think his case is fake to really suspect him, but isn't that what mafia is about, telling when someone is faking it?

******

I'll go through and pick out my third suspect for mafia next.

[Jack]

Anon:

probably town. Not much there, but it seems genuine enough. I'll put him on the town pile. Only did an ISO skim.

animorpherv:

Nada content, but is reading both universes as shown by quoting fishies post. ISO 9, quotes pops from other town asking about simultaneous hammers, animorph is thinking about the night kills. Is fine with either lynch but votes doc potter, no votes till next day. Out of the blue says he'll hammer me if I claim or after 24 hours. Puts in big font that he'll hammer me if I don't claim in next post. Smells like mafia but I'll have to check up on the others.

death row kittie:

not much to swing me either way. Nothing jumps out. I'll put her in the townie pile.

Ellibereth:

not going to reread since he's in the other universe, doesn't seem worth it

fhq:

quite scummy. Very much in favor of my strategy at the beginning, thinks I'm obv town:

I don't like the Jack wagon. He's obv town.

...

Partly gut, partly I don't see mafia-jack being so ballsy and making controversial statements as he does. My mind might change later in the game, but I think he's aggressive-town.

He says this after I voted him over a post where he was saying strategizing was scummy. Maybe his reason he gave for that was true, maybe not. The "he's obv town" could be a bit of an appeasement strategy. He leaves the door open to change his mind, and does out of the blue day 2 when I'm a very popular lynch:

Re Jacks vote: Seriously? No reason? You do know we've exited the RVS? I was obviously wrong about you.

My vote is for elmo, I have mass reasons the day before. Rapid opinion shift + not reading. He only had one vote day 1, for doc. Very scummy, I put him at the top of my list.

****

ok, posting this, it'll be a two part series I guess. Have to go through the rest of the players, haven't officially picked my top three yet.

[Jack]

Kise:

No read. Absent for most of the game, poor argument on me but that is hardly unique. All arguments against me are poor anyway

Maelyn/Maemuki

: this hydra thing confuses me and I don't do cutesy. Lurking/joke posting and then coming in to do a pbpa day 2 isn't cool, not good for town. No real read though.

Plum:

Not interested in other universe players.

Starbuck:

hard to read, especially because of posts like ISO 4. Asks lots of questions in here few posts, doesn't care about the answers. As in, says absolutely nothing about it. Votes me today "going off her case from yesterday". Almost to anti town to really be mafia. She was one of my top picks, but is really slipping now.

I said something about lowell and VP already.

***********

Ok, my picks for mafia.

Elmo

and

Nico

, although the connection isn't that strong.

FHQ

for the third.

Starbuck and animopherv are the other ones I found scummy. I will go out on a limb and put starbuck in as bad town. Can't have 5 mafia suspects. Animopherv, the biggest mark against him is the willingness to hammer me/giving himself an excuse for it. I would put him down as unknown, needs questioning.

[Jack]

Case on Jack

Vote: Jack

Still going from my case yesterday, I will go back and iso him again to bring it up to date, but for now

Vote: Jack

Obliged.

Vote: Jack

OH, NOW I get it, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA.

Vote: Jack

Unvote, Vote: Jack

That works too! Reverse my plan.

Very nice. Although I'll give VP credit for having tons outside of this vote, although he did wimp out of discussion. Don't care about plums "horrid horrid horrid UGH" vote either, other universe mafia don't concern us at this point.

I'm not going to claim with 6 votes on me day 2, when half of them are random bs votes. It is simply not pro townie play. Some of these quieter people need to come back and give their thoughts. Kise, I'm interested to see what he was actually thinking with the bwahaha post, and what he thinks of the other players in the game besides me.

[Jack]

K.....

Unvote

Someone else vote him, and I'll hammer. I'll take the blame for putting the nail in the coffin, if that's what you gals/guys are afraid of.

You came into today with some questions about me. I answered them, you picked out the bit about my early vote on you to reply to and ignored the rest. Then you voted me based on my "scumclaim". Could you lay out the reasons you think I'm mafia, and what you think of the other players?

[Jack]

death row kittie: not much to swing me either way. Nothing jumps out. I'll put

her

him in the townie pile.

Apparently that's only the 8th time someone's messed up my gender. I could have sworn it was more.

Sorry, "kitty" sounds feminine.

I'm not going to claim with 6 votes on me day 2, when half of them are random bs votes.

Well, if you're going to be fair about this, another one of my posts contained a bit of reasoning.

this:

Our first contestant votes haphazardly and without reason and he's STILL waiting for one to really stick. He disapproves of optimal town strategy and likes getting stuck in the rain. From Scummy McScummerville, Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!

I didn't take it seriously

Maybe I have too much faith that people who threw out votes early will reconsider.

Plus, you claimed scum. What other reasoning could anyone possibly need???

This is like starbuck 2.0. Why don't you tell me how I misrepresented mykonian? How many confessions have you seen on day 2 with everything up in the air? At worst you could say I was wifoming.

[Jack]

Maelyn claimed bullet proof day vig earlier. I checked the OP, there is no such role. You guys might want to look into that.

[Jack]

And I bet you got a bridge in London you want to sell to us as well.

Page 4, posts 79 and 80. I thought you said you read over that part of the day?

[Jack]

Well I'm going to bed. Hopefully someone has the courage or the conscious to finish the job.

Vote: Jack

Who else do you think is scum? Any recommendations for who should be teleported?

[Jack]

Ok, I'll lay out my list in order:

1) elmo
2) nico
3) fhq
4) animorph
5) kise
6) drk
7) maelyn/maemuki
8) starbuck
9) lowell
10) VP baltar
11) Anon

...) plum

For posterity/teleporter in case I get hammered. If elmo or nico flips town by some chance it doesn't make the other one innocent too imo. I bumped drk up for being annoying.

[Jack]

That was RVS..

Yes, yes it was. So you can tell it was not a serious claim?

It seems you didn't read carefully.