Stars Aligned II - Game Over!
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iLord Mafia Scum
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Please enlighten me as to what your intentions are with this vote.Amished wrote:Vote: Dramonic
Seems like the best reason to vote for somebody so far.
Is this vote based on the above logic?Faraday wrote:Maybe he assumes we'll think he'd not be that foolish and thus do it again!
Vote DramonicI think claiming each day may be of benefit. I think the part about players not being around if we claim it later is somewhat valid, definitely.-
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uh-huh.animorpherv1 wrote:Also, I decided to Launder myself, and I chose Avolition because I essentially, over the period of the game, seem really scummy in every game I play, as well as I always seem to find townies scummy. By day 4, I should have some info to make an informed decision.
Vote: animorpherv1-
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Wait, what could've scumAni done to gain an insanity? Stalk?
You never thought about searching? I simply don't believe you - Percy was even nice enough to list what actions you could do on N0.Ani wrote:I never actually thought about Searching. My main goal was to try to help out town in an unconvetional way Night 0, and I figured since I'm of no help to town, then I might as well get rid of my vote, but still post and contribute.-
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@Slysly: Okay, so then what action could Ani possibly be covering up?
Uh-huh. Just a few posts before, you stated that you purposely garnered an insanity, and now its a "shocking" surprise.Ani wrote:I did read it, several days before I sent in my action. When I thought about sending in my action, I only somewhat remebered Launder, and I had somewhat of a strategy in my head, so I used it. When I got a PM back telling me I needed to send in an Insanity, I was shocked, so I sent in Avolition.
I don't see what Ani could be covering for, but there's no way he's telling to truth :/-
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[quote=Ani]@iLord:
Apparently the way I wanted it to sound didn't sound how I wanted it to.
Help town in an unconventional way -> do nothing special
Get rid of my vote -> A bit of my strategy which came in after I got a PM forom Percy telling me to gain an insanity[/quote]
How does "do nothing special" link to "help town in an unconventional way" in your mind?
I don't know about Ani prepping for future insanities. If we is a Cultist, he wouldn't have acted without the influence of the other Cultists, and I doubt they'd have let him come out with such a poor excuse.-
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Don't you want to be stalked? How could you think that telling town you heard noise is: a) Unusual or b) Helpful, considering the many other explanations for noise?ani wrote:doing nothing special -> because I thought someone was going to stalk me -> I'd hear noise -> tell town I heard noise -> I thought that was going to be unconventional -> I was wrong.
Not to mention that your supposed thought process is unrealistically twisted.
That's another good point. Ani claims to have read this and then forgotten, but he'll be hard pressed to launder when the mod explicitly advises against doing so. Completely inconsistent with the fact that he seemed to have remembered that he cannot submit no action.semioldguy wrote:He could have gotten the insanity from Laundering as he says, which has to the worst possible night one play for either faction. Percy even advises against using this as an action for night zero in the Q&A section.
You list simply possibilities - which do you think is likely true?semioldguy wrote:He could have gotten it from stalking, which means that he currently HAS to be town, since psychopathy cannot be taken as a first insanity. If this is the case he is likely being honest about his current insanity choice. He may be considering or planning to go murderer.
Or he could be fabricating this as to allow for an explanation of a future planned insanity gain as cult.-
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This man is credit to team.Sajin wrote:I saw similar stuff from Ani in LotA mafia too. Sigh. Well there is one way to get use out of this:
Animorpherv, I have a proposition for you, because your insanity has already gone up and it will likely be hard to insanity count verify you:
You said you wanted to untraditionally help town? Town needs a dedicated Grave Robber.
This action is the only thing that reveals the lynched and slain's alignments. Its a free action (changed from SA 1), but it causes an insanity gain.
We will need to assign 1 person to robbing grave duties every day for the lynch (and perhaps more if we need to know more than just the lynched alignment). Sometimes insanity counts are good clues and point to a scum alignment, but more often then not a rob grave will be necessary.
Its not good to take volunteers for it, as its a very easy way to explain high insanity counts.
Its not good to let it go randomly...because either it will not get robbed, thus depriving us of information, or it will get claimed robbed by multiple people which is a great excuse for insanity gains. My aim is to take away the possibility for faking in this area.
Therefore I ask will you be up for grave robbing the lynch every day? Your probably will not be allowed to make it to end game while doing this (you would be quite indistinguishable from a murderer due to high insanity counts, and would probably have to be policy vigged or lynched before day 6), but its an action that would strongly help.
Your a good choice for it because unlike some lurkers who may fail to submit, I think you are on enough to make sure you rob every day.
Do you agree to this task, Ani?
And @all the policy voters- Do you agree this is a great way to handle this? I was planning on saving this for the first wagon to go higher but I think this is a perfect fit.-
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Had this been a normal game, no one would be able to shake my faith that you're a Jester at this point.Ani wrote:I thought it was unusual because I thought most everyone was going to search. I thought it was helpful for the same reason.
You thought most everyone was going to Search, huh? Yet you forgot that you yourself could search?
You still didn't answer why you don't want to be stalked.
On Night 0?SlySly wrote:If he is covering up a future insanity, that could be validated if someone has Occult Books and used them on Ani.
Iecerint wrote:Cue obligatory "That was awfully convenient..." @ Ani/Sajin. O_O-
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Would 1 not be just as unlikely as 4, considering the excuse that Ani used?semioldguy wrote:I find three unlikely, as potential murderers would not want to draw this sort of attention to themselves. Four is unlikely because I can't imagine that cult wouldn't discuss each of their night actions prior to doing them.
Did the scum have nighttalk before Day 1?Seacore wrote:I've seen Day 1 scum do stupid claims before.
Cults of Darkness and Shadow anybody? One scum came out and invented a role even though it was a semi-open set up with all roles detailed.-
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Ah okay, I thought Commune happened after Insanity gained from Ritual.SlySly wrote:No, N1. If the OB user has 0 insanity, as should be the case right now, and Ani is lying, the results would be negative as Ani would have 0 insanity as well
Such poor reasoning, although scumAni would've had to have similarly poor reasoning to attempt to pull this in the first place.Ani wrote:I give up. I stalked Adel.
Reasoning:
Adel is a good player -> What if he's cult -> If he is we're all screwed.
Needless to say, this is just as difficult to believe. What happened to helping the town through passivity? Why would you hide the fact that you stalked?-
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Damn, you guys type too fast.
Obviously I'm not well acquainted with that level of scum ineptitude. Regardless, what are your thoughts on having Ani be the Grave Robber and garner insanities versus another sane townie?Seacore wrote: Yes, the scum did have nighttalk
You can't underestimate poor action choice, and other scum overlooking their decision making capabilities.-
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What happened to your lack of faith in your scumhunting ability?Ani wrote:I thought it was helping,although it wasn't as passive as I wanted, by getting rid of what I thought would be a big threat if he's cult. I hid it because of that I was afraid what was going to happen (what happened to me when I hid it up).
How is it possible that you believe it's optimal play to vig all good analysts as soon as possible?-
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Hmm. That's actually quite valid. Do you believe that Ani is crafty enough to preemptively excuse insanities? Cause from what I see, I'd be quite surprised that CultAni held off on claiming cultist .semioldguy wrote:No. I would expect cult to discuss/coordinate their actions each night, but not necessarily to discuss all the plays/posts they make in game.
Case in point, Percy's last game. Daytalking scum made a boneheaded move and didn't consult their scumbuddy in their quicktopic prior to making it.
Adel wrote:I believe that it is essential to lynch ani at this point. Riculaulsly anti-town play requires dicipline and punishment by lynch.
Giving people a pass for being "too scummy to be scum" isn't going to help us win.-
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You do realize that you are taking just as big of a risk by attempting to kill him? That is, unless you can explain how an analyst is somehow more dangerous as scum than beneficial as town. Especially notable is just how influential scumAdel would have proven to be given his influence in the game thread so far.Ani wrote:I so totaly missed it. Becuas ei wasn't willing to take a risk.
Obviously Ani has to agree to not go murderer or murder Adel first - if he's town, he will listen because its in the best interests of the town, and if he's scum, he can't murder anyway.nico wrote:In other news, I think it's silly to lynch anyone other than Ani today. While I understand where Sajin is coming from with the grave robbing, I really would like to refrain from giving such an anti-town and outright scummy player a free ride into D5 or 6, as it would give him far too much time to murder/ritualize if he were so inclined.
If he's a cultist, he will give them another body to use the Ritual with, though, and it's still exceedingly obvious to me that Ani's lying his ass off. Seacore also brings up Ani's inherent unreliability, which sadly is a factor even if he's town. It doesn't appear that Sajin thinks Ani is likely scum, but I may have to disagree with him here.
@Sajin: Thoughts on Ani providing a body for Cultists and possibly not robbing a grave even as town? He's already proven to be exceptionally irrational.-
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That's what I thought, but then it occurred to me that someone would've have to know whether or not their Stalk was successful before they could proceed to attempting to Murder, else they could attempt to use Murder when it would be an illegal action (Illegal in that Percy did no list Murder among the available actions on N0, but listed the even more pointless Launder).VP wrote:I thought it said somewhere in the rules that all failed actions are not notified, but still take an insanity.-
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Ah, okay. For some reason, I had the opposite impression. If anyone warded Baltar, they should probably say so now. Otherwise, Ani's shown once more to be a filthy liar.vikingfan wrote:Baltar, there's one thing. The OP states that if you Stalk, you will be told if it works out or not right away. There's nothing from ani's post to make me believe it did not go through. Ani, want to speak up on this?
In any case, one of three possibilities come up: VP is lying, Ani is lying again (even MORE stupidly since his stalking wouldn't have worked), or VP got warded.
@SlySly: You're stretching. Adel's behavior's in no way indicative of scum. From what I see, he's simply terse and confident.-
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It does not appear that SlySly is good at scumhunting. I see no indication that it isn't sincere, however.Adel wrote:I'm currently taking it as evidence of pseudo-scumhunting, but I can fully compensate for my OMGUS reaction to what I consider overly wordy and poorly thought out posting that trys to implicate me as scummy.
I really don't think that it is sincere.
Personal question, here. Would you consider Ani rational?SlySly wrote:He has an insanity. I don't really see why scum would at this point.
This is good.Chaco wrote:Have him test it on himself, on Sly sly gives him a different perspective. If he does it on himself, I believe it gives him a lot more pressure to tell the truth. If he's not lying, he's got nothing to worry about, but not on SlySly.
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I daresay that he would not necessarily oppose it in good faith. He stated in the signup thread that part of the point of the setup was that it offered multiple strategies for players to utilize. What Adel is attempting to do right now qualifies as such a strategy.SlySly wrote:3. I want to play the game in the spirit that Percy had in mind when he created it. I seriously doubt that what is happening right now is not how he envisioned it.
In designing such a complex setup, Percy, as the mod, is opening a challenge to the town to find the optimal use of night actions to win (And since it is very unlikely that players can find an absolute solution, scumhunting is typically used in conjunction with night actions). He obviously would not be satisfied with this result because it means in a sense that the players have proven that his setup is broken, but that is no more reason to not do it than it is to beat another runner in a race just because he'll be "disappointed" in the result.
On the plan itself, yeah, we're going to be sure that it actually works, but Adel's idea here seems like a good basis. It's ridiculous that a player would willingly handicap himself for the "spirit of the game." The spirit of this game here is to find the optimal use of night actions to facilitate scumhunting. Since the latter is inherently unreliable, it would logically entail that we should attempt to garner a large of an advantage as possible with the former, if possible.
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No! Adel, don't go!
I don't blame you on replacing out though. Some other players have been most uncooperative.
Uh-huh.evilsnail wrote:Yeah, I noticed that too.Good point.
Vote: Nicodemus-
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Eh, let me revise my question. Do you believe that Ani is logical enough to listen to what the town says?SlySly wrote:Yes. He tried something but it failed miserably. That doesn't make him irrational.
Judging from his play so far, I daresay that Ani does not allow any specters of potential consequences to influence his play. Regardless, I agree that it is unlikely that he will go murderer at this point.SlySly wrote:Technically, but do you really think it is now in the best interests of ani to go murderer? Ani's best chance for a win is definitely to stay investigator, he knows it, I know it, you know it, and everyone else knows it. His every step in this game will be tracked and he will be dealt with swiftly upon murderous deviations.
Humor me - why?wicked wrote:Not done catching up, but it looks like people want to know who I warded. Yes, I used my ward ability on VP.
Sajin wrote:You know there is 6 cultists?
I expected better of you?
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Unvote Ani-
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Eh, I guess so. The only other game I've seen Ani in he didn't seem to act nearly as bizzarely, but his behavior so far makes me hesitant to agree with arguments that entail him making any logical/obvious decisions.SlySly wrote:Logic aside, I think ani knows that any renegade activity from him going forward will result in his lynch. The recent ani/saber bet debacle has given me a certain opinion of him. I don't see why he wasn't banned along with saber, but I am in no way pushing that issue and have no personal problem with ani.-
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Okay, finally, thread's stop going and I can reread it. Scumhunting time (This post will be big). I disagree strongly that making a list helps the scum, as I'm sure they can figure out who the town thinks is town easily enough without the benefit of such lists.
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Amished:
#46: Votes Dramonic, noting that it seems like "the best person to vote so far." Scummy - voting to wagon, as he indicates he has no plans to serious consider a lynch, and thusly would generate no pressure (Not to mention the uselessness of pressure on a wagon of predominantly meta base).
#416: Jumped on evilsnail attack. Opportunistic.
animorpherv1:
#74: Claims Laundered Night 0 on purpose to limit himself.
#85: Claims forgot about Searching.
#93: Claims to be surprised about gaining an Insanity from laundering.
#102: Claims convoluted thought process.
#128: Claims to have stalked Adel, but in hindsight, it's extremely obvious what's going on here. Ani planned to go Murderer as soon as possible (He evidently has no faith in his scumhunting abilities (Legit, I believe, based on his comment about his other posts), and by extension does not enjoy playing town). He attempted to cover for this by playing dumb, failed, and is trying to salvage the situation. With Sajin's plan, he's found something useful for him to do as town, and I doubt he'll sacrifice his life to go murderer and kill Adel, so I'm thinking he's probably going to stay town for now.
#256: Maintains that stalk was successful despite evidence seemingly pointing to the contrary.
#265: A believable claim at last, now proven true.
Chaco:
#131: LaL is not confident and forced.
#283,293: Best bet for wannabe murderer with Avolition.
#305: Constantly emphasizes how little he trusts Ani. Townie concern.
#476: Sort of convoluted thought process. Can't decide town or scum.
dramonic:
#432: Crazy theory. Townie conclusion. Probably not cultist.
DrippingGoofball:
#517: DGB is unreadable. DGB brings up a good point here.
#527: Don't get DGB's attack here anymore.
Ellibereth:
#491: Townie defense of Sly.
#499: Incredibly townie action, along with townie caution.
#515: Insistence on plan is good.
#553: Same as above.
#571: Claims to have stalked. Believably did not read the rules. My guess is that he planned on going Murderer before realizing its folly when reading the rules.
elvis_knits:
#17-19: Flood of ideas is typically townie response to structured setup. Again, she's played enough games to be able to fake this reaction, and its inherently difficult to discern the difference.
#76: Ani attack in hindsight still positive - natural response to ridiculous action.
#442: Don't agree that Ani's smart enough to lie and claim a different target (Not to mention the confidence and detail with which Ani was able to provide in regards to his stalk target). Attempt to analysis positive.
#512: Hostility towards Stalk reads genuine.
evilsnail:
#402,404: Initially appears to be barning Phate, later comment makes clear he actually believes this is a tell. Slightly townie as this could be scum trying to jump backed by legit reason.
#691: Don't like how he doesn't get into any specific reasons and how he uses "starting."
Faraday:
#49: Odd vote on Dramonic, giving no explanation but a joke.
#399: Explains #49, solid reads on players, townie.
#449: Votes Elli without explanation again (Specifically as opposed to the other players on Ani wagon).
Hayker (Adel):
#53,55: Disagreement with claiming seems legit and appropriate. Refusing to comply on Day 2 is a high risk, low rewards action for Cultists at this point.
#357: Overall, this whole business with trying to break the game is very townie, and the concern over getting the town to agree is similarly indicative of town.
Iecerint:
#118: Hints Ani/Sajin plan convenient. Town response.
#326: Just one example of a trend. A lot of his posts then to be "content," in that they discuss whatever mechanical issue is at hand and allows the validity of the contents to be independent of alignment. Really explains for my lack of read on his posts.
#361: Support's Adel's plan
#504: Does not even bat an eye at VP's vote?
#544: Initiates Nico wagon. Fresh topic is good.
#689: Panics after VP seriously calls for lynch. Not good.
Nicodemus:
#78: Horrible post - suggested that it might not be worth it to test Ani's insanity, hedged around the tell of Ani's claim, attacked "appeal to badness," and used soft language with whether his action was pro-town.
#153: Horrible post again, second side of equal does not balance with first, which indicates that he's telling the truth about stalking. Forced jump onto Ani wagon.
#185: Argues logically against Ani.
#368: Poor agreement here - no indication that he wants others to check the plan or intent whether or not he's actually going to give his plan. Not that scummy though, more lazy and trying to seem active and contributing.
#678: Feels like he has to explain why he's unvoting Ani - scummy.
Phate:
#10,14: Immediately calls of insanity explanation, and then 'realizes' that there's no action that could give insanity. If genuine, the latter means that he did not stalk and the former indicates that he believes Cultists could gain insanities Night 0 and that he's not a Cultist. Easily fakeable, but reads legit in this case.
#585: I don't like how he jumps on Elli here, when Ani is guilty of the same crime. Elli's insanity is not confirmed, Phate's not calling Elli cultist here.
Sajin:
#39: Started push on Dramonic. Legit, but neutral.
#162: Biased towards his plan, neutral.
#699: Don't agree with push here on Iecerint. Amusingly, though, still a neutral tell.
Sarag:
#651: Don't like how he says that he'd agree to either Ani lynch or Ani grave robber - it really isn't saying much, since at that point, those were probably the only two options.
Seacore:
#87-88: Confident this is genuine. It means that Seacore did not stalk and is not cult.
#96: Same as above - the persistence of argument means he did not consider the initial a fallacy. Most definitely town.
#226: Genuine concern over formulating effective strategies.
#248: Belligerent attitude towards Adel - townie.
#313: Townie concern over Ani as well.
semioldguy:
#48: Fence-sits on the Dramonic wagon, declines to vote, but mentions that we should still keep eye on him.
#64: No Investigating tonight. Pro-town action, but tell depends on how likely this would've been brought up anyway.
#126: Annoyance at people not reading rules is pretty townie - scum natural reaction would be eagerness to be seen as helpful.
#384: Genuinely does not approve of breaking the game, though at this point this tell is growing increasingly null.
SlySly:
#60: Calls Dramonic wagon. Personality indicates that this is town tell.
#84: Calls Ani wagon. Hindsight indicates that this is town tell.
#140: Accurately analyzes Ani's action.
#179: SlySly's confidence in Ani now makes sense.
#196: Attacks Adel - he just wants to find scum.
#564: Refuses to comply with Elli's plan.
startransmission:
#156: Don't like this post at all - refuses to acknowledge that townies can be persuaded not to go murderer and calls Icerint's obviously speculative argument reaching.
vikingfan:
#100: Blatantly scummy post - Barns a post factually incorrect on many fronts.
#125: Indicates that he's not reading, but the gesture is townie.
#228: Second time he's jumped in the clarify rules issue. Scum trying to appear contributing.
#389: Attempts to analyze setup - townie. Does indicate he has no ideal of Craft Fetish works and he does not appear crafty enough to falsify this. Probably townie.
#444: Eh, does the trying to appear helpful thing again. Considering #389, I'm concluding its a personality thing.
#684: Townie cautioning that activity =/= townie.
VP Baltar:
#31: Surprise at amount of warding, townie response.
#190: Warded Adel, now all but proven. Town.
#500: Why vote Iecerint?
Wickedestjr:
#71: Noted that other players (Really only SlySly) pointed out the flaw with EK's attack on SS. Didn't actually read attack, so trying to seem town. Initiated Adel attack, which is unusual.
#438: Reads forced attack against Adel.
#452: Warded VP Baltar. Interesting to know why, but not too relevant in hindsight. Does mean that he's town, probably.
#652: I would almost say that this is faked at this point, but the fact that he warded VP makes it too obvious that he's town.
Amished and Nicodemus my best bets for scum. Blue names I feel fairly strongly are town.
Vote: Nicodemus
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I disagree completely. Unless your assuming all the influential players are Cultists, the town on average has about four times the influence of the scum on this. People always run this argument on stuff like this (Like in Kingmaker), but it doesn't really make any sense.VP wrote:See, this is a MASSIVE problem with Elli's plan. Scum can day talk. Under no circumstance should be the town be hand selecting people to participate in this. It'd be massively easy for the scum to manipulate a town suicide with this.
Ah, this shows why you're convinced of the daytalking scum's scary mind-bending powers. The scum won't be able to sway the entire town. They can't magically make people change their minds any more than you or I can. It's like saying that we shouldn't lynch because the daytalking scum could convince us to lynch a townie.VP wrote:Scumbag, seriously. DGB, you should back me up on this. Remember CT III and how the scum were awesomely manipulating the town into bad decisions thanks to their daytalking. You getting shades of that at all here?
As above, scum've got no more say than any townies.VP wrote:It's the scummiest plan I've heard in this game. Allowing six cult members plus however many people want to go murderer dictate a large list of likely Investigators to die on night 1 is an idea that would only come from scum.
That is a good point. I can't think of how we could cope with this.Sajin wrote:The plan is flawed. Cult simply has to protect someone with a rez kit. Or claim that cult protected someone vig target. Additionally cult will likely remove someone who is to vig later on. If all the matchups were perfect, it would be slightly in town's benefit. If even 1 or 2 were not (cultist assigned as a shooter, cult assigned to shoot a cultist) it creates a siuation that benefits cult. Additionally all or most all of the town could not vig again unless they became murderers....which would likely happen if the game was rolling downhill.
You will end up with a situation that will likely lead to a individual murderer or a cultist win following this plan. Just because you avoid chaos does not mean it will create a favorable game state.
If you disagree with this please point out where you addressed cultists using multiple rez kits in the formation of your plan.
Lets play this game how it was meant to be played.
Vote: Startransmission
I doubt that scumIecerint would be trying to push a plan he finds a fault with so heavily, especially after a serious hole's been pointed out.E_K wrote:He wanted to stop discussion of the plan by saying anyone who disagrees or says they don't understand are scum.
This is a valid point.VP wrote:Reason number 48 why Iecerint is scum: He tried to shovel mud on SlySly over the modkills before they would have happened and before any reveal had been made. Not to mention he said earlier that he could see Adel as scum!
This is true, but your missing something important. Yes, people that stalked probably intended to go Murderer if they're telling the truth. However, due to a variety of possible reasons, that may no longer be true. In Ani's case, the town's made it clear he's dead if he goes Murderer. In Elli's case, he's claimed that he didn't read the rules. Especially with all the talk that's explained how unlikely it is for Murderer's to win, I seriously doubt many players will go down that path, regardless of their thoughts prior to the game.E_K wrote:Players who want to win with the town would NOT have chosen stalk last night. They are either planning to become murderers or they are cultists trying to convince us they aren't cult.
That being said, you can argue that Elli was lying, which is possible, but I daresay that Elli holds now no longer holds any intentions of going Murderer.-
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Basically, with Rez packs in the picture, this plan is no longer as clean as 6-8 extra lynches. I'll need to think about confirming insanities for a bit.Iecerint wrote:The rez pack issue can be dealt with. Picking up rez packs does not cause insanity. Neither does resuscitating someone. On the other hand, both stalking and murdering cause insanity. So we will be able to judge which cult players resuscitated by forcing all town players to choose confirmable insanities. This subverts the implicit intent of insanity, because LACK of insanity becomes a scumtell.
Sly calling for modkills is just Sly being Sly. Null tell.-
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Aversion, Distraction, Paranoid, Twitchy, and Sadism are all relatively easy to prove through Insanity Infractions. Stalking then Murdering will then give two Insanity Infractions. Scum can gain an insanity each night through the Ritual Resolving and still search for and use Res kits. I don't think we can try and account for kills through Insanities.-
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My point is that on the flip side, only one or two influential town players would be able to balance the effect of the influential cultists. And chances are, there's more influential town than cult players. Yes, there's probably a lot of sheep, but they're just as apt to listen to town leaders as they are to cultist leaders.VP wrote:All of the cultists don't need to be the influential players. It actually doesn't take that many influential players to muck up the plan. You only need one or two cultists who can logically get the list needed across and the you have the other mopes come in and go "I agree with so and so". I don't know why you think it would be difficult, especially early in a large game. People have a strong tendency to sheep in large games, particularly when they have a breakneck pace like this.
The comparison is valid - influential scum could lead town just as effectively towards 11 simultaneous lynches as towards a single lynch. I believe you that scum were probably very successful in influencing the town in the game you're referencing and I can see how that is affecting your judgement. Logically however, we cannot take just the result of one game to prove such a generality.VP wrote:Killing half the player list =/= lynching one player. I don't know why you would even draw that comparison. Seriously though, if you don't believe me look at that game for evidence. DGB, Thok and Mighty Orbots (Zorblag/Papa Zito hydra) were scum in that game who could day talk. In the On Stage portion of that game, the town would have to make a decision every day that would have a good, bad or neutral outcome. Despite only having a few scum members On Stage at any given time, they effectively influenced the town toward the negative or neutral choices in almost every single scene. It does not take much effort for scum to influence these kinds of decisions and plans.
Nevertheless, this argument's pretty null, since Rez Kits very effectively ruin the plan.
Nicodemus?Sajin wrote:I really do not think Iec would push the plan like this as a cultist. So I would prefer to lynch one of the people attacking Ani as an easy lynch.
unvote
Vote: Startransmission-
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It's ture that Iecerint attacking SC is bad. I don't see why you believe he's deliberately posting in an anti-town manner though, or why Cultists would want to act in such a manner.Phate wrote:Unvote; Vote: Iecerint
Iecerint is a better lynch than Nico, actually. I was the one that started the Nico wagon, but I don't trust how fast it's growing. Iecerint, on the other hand, is obvscum. Look at how he continues to deliberately post in an anti-town manner. This doesn't sync with my prior experience of Iecerint
At this point, the Nico case is far stronger.-
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You think Iecerint might be baiting SlySly or trying to force other people to not read the thread? Doesn't that sound a little far-fetched (And what would the scum motivation for the former be? SlySly's pretty obviously town in a lot of player's books)?Phate wrote:Don't get me wrong - Nico is scummy. But look at Iecerint's posts for the last ~5 pages. He's posting like he's intentionally trying to make the post-count explode - baiting SlySly (from whom I get the sense that he feels the need to respond to everything that could be directed at him; unlike Iecerint, who appears to just respond to everything and invent things if there's nothing), lots of ebwops, lots of pointless posts, lots of responding to things that don't need responses, etc. And all this while people are screaming to slow down, to let them catch up.
I can't even tell if you're on your own side - these types of posts are exactly what Phate is accusing you of, and I see his point.Iecerint wrote:Phate is a party-pooper.
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Case against Nicodemus, through notable posts:
The first portion kicks off with tentative language - Ani had just claimed to have laundered and Nico states that it "seems like a strange strategy," as if it were only slightly unconventional. See E_K's post #76 to see what a townie reaction would look like - a townie would be like "Oh, what you did there was kind of weird," but rather more along the lines of "What the hell were you thinking?"Nicodemus, Post 78 wrote:*raises eyebrows at ani*
That seems like a really strange strategy to me, and it doesn't strike me as all that pro-town either. Are there any actions that cult could take night one that would gain them an insanity besides launder that ani could be covering up for? I don't care for your appeal to "badness" either.
Would it be worth testing Ani's claim to ask him to try to hammer at the end of today?
_________________
Ythan, on my play: "Scummy and bad are not the same. Some players manage to keep them separate, though I applaud how masterfully you blend them."
The next portion with trying to figure out why possibly Ani could be lying is appropriate, but his reluctance to call Ani scummy is most suspect.
His final question is scummy as well - a townie would most definitely believe that it is completely necessary to test Ani's claim. I can't imagine a townie thinking "Wow, this guy's probably lying. Should we test his claim?"
At this point, Nico has decided that its safe to jump on the Ani wagon. His stated reasoning, however, betrays his insecurity. The two items on the left side of the equal sign very neatly indicates that Ani was probably a murder in the making, but nowhere does he indicate the reasons why Ani could be a cultist false claiming. In fact, Nico does not even make mention of the debate on whether a Cultist could be trying to explain future insanities, nor the debate on whether a daytalking Cultist group would let Ani give such a poor excuse (Admittedly, this could be excused by the speed the thread was growing and the fact he probably didn't check the thread during that debate, but this post was not too late to voice his thoughts on its likelihood). He is blatantly just throwing that part into there.Nicodemus, Post 153 wrote:Lying about your night actions + preparing to murder a player N1 = murderer in the making/cultist fake claiming night actions ~ Vote: animorpherv1
What this all means is that Nico is compiling reasons to jump on the Ani wagon, but he does not actually believe/follow the used reasons.
The problem with this post was pointed out by a lot of other players - not only does it indicate the obvious (Barring SlySly arguments), it also indicates no intention to actually understand the plan (Or a statement that he is not going to attempt it). Actually, this is really more laziness however, than scumminess, since I'd reckon that the Cultists would be pretty interested in figuring out this plan that supposedly screws them over.Nicodemus, Post 368 wrote:If Adel's strategy is going to increase our chances of winning significantly, then I support it, although to be honest I have no idea what the strategy actually is
The first part of this post is fairly strong evidence that Nico is scum. Not only does he feel the need to excuse his jumping off of Ani's wagon, he also states that his biggest worry is that Ani was faking his Insanity in order to preemptively excuse future insanities.Nicodemus, Post 678 wrote:Unvote: ani
My biggest concern with ani was that he was lying about his insanity to allow him to participate in the ritual tonight with no apparent change in insanity count. Now that this has been alleviated I see no reason to vote him as he is verified town.
To see who was warded/stalked/fetish'd last night. I just didn't remember that warding causes noise for yourself as well as your target.elvis_knits wrote:@Nicodemus-- what did you think was the point of claiming noises? (Since you didn't seem to understand what exactly makes noise and what does not).
I still support any strategy that will increase town's chance of winning. I also support the town/not town list that Elli has submitted (with one obvious exception ).
@Elli: why isn't sly on your list?
If you've been reading this case, you'll see that this is inconsistent on two fronts. First of all, as pointed out in the analysis of #153, Nico did not even participate in the discussions, nor mention it in his post accusing Ani of being either a wannabe Murderer or a Cultist. Suddenly here it has became his primary worry - he's just using this argument to formulate an excuse he believes is necessary to cover his dropping off the wagon.
Second of all, he noted here that his concern was alleviated by testing Ani's claim. Yet, as we noted in the first analyzed post, Nicodemus's attitude towards testing Ani was most peculiar -Nico earlier stated that he was not even sure whether or not the test that he now claims to have mitigated his concerns was necessary!
To finish this analysis, Nico continues to avoid discussing any specifics on the plan, although this time its proven not be just laziness as he follows this statement with one voicing agreement with the lists proposed by Elli. In order to agree to the lists, Nico must've understood the plan (Which was basically one list alive, another dead), and is purposely avoiding discussing specifics, preferring to voice general, safe agreement.
Nico's probably scum.-
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Again, I echo Phate here - most of the contents of this post could've been placed in your previous post. The only part reflecting new content is your agreement with my case, which you didn't elaborate on at all (And if you plan on doing so, strive to be concise and thorough rather than spread it over 5-7 posts).Iecerint wrote:Phate's grandfatherly calls for fewer posts remind me of DDD's play in my first game on the site. He was scum. At present, I'm experiencing terrible deja vu, and I have a secret scumtell on Phate to match.
I agree with you about Nicky. Phate is probably his scumfriend.
In the interests of preserving the brevity that I'm arguing for, I won't bring this up again, but for the sake of those that are 10-20 pages behind, think before you post.-
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What E_K is saying there is completely true. How else do you expect us to treat your "secret tells?" In fact, there's very little point in babbling about it until you can actually talk about it. Quite frankly, the rest of us just don't care.Iec wrote:Are you TRYING to antagonize me in a fashion that cannot in any fashion be interpreted as pro-town?-
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Yeah, I'm proven wrong again .Sajin wrote:Yes. Explain to me how you will not rob the grave as a free action to take the murderer insanity? If you can explain that one to me, then your welcome to it.
Regardless, why do you believe that Elli still will want to go Murderer? He's not dumb - he knows if he goes Murderer he's probably going to lose.
As it stands, I don't believe Elli's position is any different from any other player's. Him stalking last night merely indicated that he had intended originally to go Murderer, but I daresay that now he has definitely reconsidered going down that path.
I agree that no more people should take Stalk unless the town agrees to it, but I see no point in not taking advantage of Elli's stalk to kill lurkerCSL.-
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This doesn't really touch my point - your reaction was that Ani's action was "kind of weird." Night 0 laundering, even if you are not used to complex games, should elicit a far stronger reaction of either disbelief or outrage that a townie would waste his action like that. You didn't necessarily have to call him scum, but to just limit your accusation to "weird" is just scummily cautious.Nico wrote:You're right, I was tentative, because I wasn't sure if laundering was a smart action for town to make, or not. This is by far the most complex game of mafia I've ever played (or even heard of) and I was struggling, as evidenced by my later posts and current state of mind, to wrap my head around all the intricacies of the set-up. Just because someone admitted to laundering N0 does not put him anywhere close to being scum in my book, it only opens the possibility that he could be.
The first sentence concedes exactly what I'm attacking you for - your reactions in this thread so far have not been natural. Why are you afraid of being accused "too eager?" You can throw out ideas and reads as you have them - that has no bearing on overconfidence. Here you're not trying to avoid being arrogant - you're trying to avoid being definitive.Nico wrote:I guess I did phrase this wrong, but only because I didn't want to be accused of being "too eager" or anything like that. I know some people can lead town effortlessly (VP, DGB, Adel, etc.) but I am definitely not one of them, and it always makes me feel more confident when I get some backing for my ideas. Once again, I was throwing the idea out there as a possibility, but trying to stay away from being too overconfident in my reads and ideas.
Yeah, I missed that interpretation. I'll concede that, but something in this response doesn't sit well with me - you say that you believe all liars are scum because townies have nothing to hide. Not only do townies lie all the time (Especially prevalent on this site), you assert that you believe townies should not attempt to hide anything.Nico wrote:*Sigh* I guess I'm just going to have to chalk this up to my usual obscure posting style. I'm trying to get better at posting snappy, simple statements that are easily read and understood, but I'm nowhere close to that right now. The "lying about your night actions" was supposed to cover the cult aspect of my accusation as well - If he admitted to lying about laundering, who's to say he's not lying now about stalking - but obviously it didn't come out that way. I was now confident in voting for Ani because he had admitted to lying, and I am of the school that liars = scum, as townies have nothing to hide. I wasn't ready to lynch Ani when I thought he had laundered - it was stupid, and anti-town, but not scummy - but when he came out with the lie I saw the course of action clearly.
Yet, as shown from your last response, you consciously phrase your words so that you would not be seen as scummy. That's exactly the type of stuff scum do and that's what analysts hunt for. You saying that you believe townies don't have anything to hide must be completely false when you yourself indulge in such behavior.
Funny how you say that you're afraid of being "overconfident," yet you feel it is okay to voice your agreement to a plan you know no specifics about (Judging from the degree of comprehension you're implying, you really don't even have a vague idea of the plan at this point).Nico wrote:I am always in favor of strategies that increase the town's chance of winning. At that point Adel was only asking for a support/don't support post, and so I wanted to get my stance out there. I figured that there would be plenty of discussion about the details of the strategy after we decided to implement it, and I would be able to figure out what was going on then.
First portion emphasizes point attacked directly above. It seems I was perfectly correct that this behavior was not natural.Nico wrote:Once again, *sigh*. I knew that making an explanation post could be viewed as scummy, but I thought that if I unvoted with no explanation at all then I would get called out for that. In the end I just decided that more information = good, so I went ahead and put my justification for unvoting. And yes, Ani faking an insanity was my biggest concern. The fact that Ani had already proved himself capable of lying made me very suspicious of the possibility of him lying again to cover for future insanity gains. And, if he wasn't cult, then we were still getting rid of a lying, would-be murderer. When it was proved that he did have the insanity, and he was looking less and less likely to go murderer, however, I unvoted.
Uh-huh.Nico wrote:Mostly answered above. I just wanted to get my general support of breaking/advantage-bringing strategies out there, so that if we decided to move forward with them I could then start to understand the specifics. This time, though, I did understand the bare bones of the plan (have the town group stalk and kill the questionable group), so I felt confident in voicing my agreement with those lists as well.
What suddenly enlightened you about the "bare bones" of the plan?
Still scum.
Reread the posts where Adel's trying to break the game. The man is legit.Katy wrote:As between the two, I actually took more notice of Adel's trying to throw a wrench in town trying to organize information. It's one thing to be cautious about town giving out info before a consensus is reached on what info will be given and how, but Adel's reaction to people claiming noise seemed possibly designed to scare town out of getting organized and trying to share info to make a plan. Even his initial reluctance I could accept but this sequence of posts bothers me:
You just don't understandDramonic wrote:How is basically trailing behind a player known to have a pretty anti-town behaviour all around worth qualifying scumhunting in any way ?trueart, hmph.
I don't see Nicodemus.Magua wrote:People I Think Are Scum
- Icerint. It started with #504, where Ice agrees with Ellibereth's kill list while noting that it's more open for scum manipulation. Icerint also mildly defends Ellibereth in #541. The reaction when the reasons for the mass killing not working don't ring true to me. When dramonic brings this up in #791, Icerint doesn't even fight it, but makes it a joke. Just rubs me the wrong way.
- Ellibereth: Claiming the stalk is just weird. Saying, "Lynch me tomorrow, I just want to kill CSL tonight" is weird. I was very surprised that, compared to all the brouhaha when animorph claimed his stalk about how he could be a cultist trying to drive his claimed insanity up, there's been very little directed against Ellibereth. The Taboo: Launder thing also strikes as the sort of thing that only someone who doesn't think ahead would take. Yet this is contrasted with Ellibereth taking a very proactive role in trying to direct town strategy. These two thoughts don't mesh for me. The only faction I can think of as saying "It's ok to kill me tomorrow, but not today" is cult.
- evilsnail: My predecessor voted him, and upon the read, I have to agree. It's a lack of content, a going along with the flow, "I guess we can do that..." Post #691/694 really seals it for me, though.
- DrippingGoofBall: Not as strong as the others, but I've heard a lot of good things about DGB. Then I read DGB's #666. Between DGB, Seacore's #645, and Nicodemus' #368, I feel sad and alone.
Phate wrote:You're probably scum, but in the event that you're not, get the fuck out this game, please.
Reread early Seacore. She's probably town. You're probably scum. I can't remember anymore.evilsnail wrote:Unvote, Vote: Katy
Iecerint wrote:Given that scum can daytalk and they probably have at least 1 veteran of SA1, I would not be surprised if players' reaction to Elli's plan were indicative of something. Scum probably have guidance from at least 1 player who has insight into how the game might be structured and into what kinds of strategies may or may not be effective for town and/or scum.*cough*Sajinscum*cough*
Come here, young one, and I'll show you the light of salvation. In my Holy presence you will be cleansed of your purities!DGB wrote:Katy isn't scum. I cannot wait any longer for CSL, my newly found spiritual leader.
For now I'll
unvote, vote: startramission
I think he's townDGB wrote:Hey! More scum! I found another one!
I don't like you anymore.Sajin wrote:Hey Startransmission made a bunch of defensive posts and "I will catch up" posts!
@Star- Who do you think is scum?
This is reaching and the first part of your comment shows that you realize it.Nico wrote:I know that I was in the lynch Ani camp as well, so obviously this wouldn't be as powerful as if someone else had brought it up, but...How would Ani's claim not be verifiable by any stretch of the imagination? Verifying if a vote counts or not is a very simple thing to do, and I find it hard to believe that Adel of all people missed this. His eagerness to lynch Ani here could very well have been scum motivated.
"I opposed the plan if it helps us win" is so much more concrete.Nico wrote:I would be okay with this if Drench had provided some reasoning for his decision, but all he seems to say is "I'm opposed because I don't want the game to end quickly." Others had concrete reasoning for opposing the plan, but Drench just smears the plan ("shitty journey") and opposes it.
Looks like trying not to be "overconfident" just got flushed down the toilet.Nico wrote:Except that VP just brought this up in his post right above yours. Seriously, viking has done next to nothing in this game besides lurk and throw out useless information. Can we lynch him now please?
Vote: Vikingfan
The last line was so forced it made me cry a little bit on the inside.
Nag nag nag.Magua wrote:iLord promised to answer Nicodemus in #939; waiting for that.
If you're town, what you're trying to do here with your posts is what I'm trying to find and attack, so not helpful at all.Nico wrote:And yes, I am very aware of what I'm saying, and I'm doing my utmost not to look suspicious. It doesn't help the town at all if I get lynched today for giving false scumslips just because I was lazy or obscure in my posting, so I try to make them as clear and honest as possible. I still have not found the best way to post as town for me, and until I do I'm trying to watch what I say so that I'm not giving any false scumtells for opportunistic scum or overeager town to latch on to.
Fortunately, I don't believe this at all. Link to game where you were town?-
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I'm not authorized to answer that. She's probably giving me 50 lashes already - I'm not hurtin' for anymore.SlySly wrote:Oh, is she cultist too?
Humor me - Why did you feel inclined to say this?Sajin wrote:@Slysly- That is a horrible read. iLord is obviously referring to sanctioning eli's murder tonight.-
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SlySly's just being SlySly. I'm a lot more worried about Sajin's behavior here.Iecerint wrote:I use first-person plural all the time to communicate group plans, even if I'm not personally an agent involved in them. The fact that you were apparently serious about his "scumslip" is troubling. I thought you were joking.-
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E_K wrote: IN DANGER:
Adel - Heard noise. No ward.(VP failed ward/Ani stalked)
Amished - Heard noise. No ward.
Col. Cathart - Heard noise. No ward.
dramonic - Heard noise. No ward. (Chaco warded)
DrippingGoofball - Heard noise. No ward. (elvis warded)
Ellibereth - Heard noise. No ward.
Iecerint - Heard noise. No ward.
iLord - Heard noise. No ward.
Phate - Heard noise. No ward.
Sajin - Heard noise. No ward.
Sarag - Heard noise. No ward.
Seacore - Heard noise. No ward.
vikingfan - Heard noise. No ward.
Safe:
animorpherv1 - No noise. No ward.
Drench - No noise. No ward.
evilsnail - No noise. No ward.
Faraday - No noise. No ward.
Nicodemus - No noise. No ward.
semioldguy - No noise. No ward.
SlySly - No noise. No ward.
startransmission - No noise. No ward.
VP - Heard noise. Ward Adel (failed). Warded by Wicked.
Dram - heard noise, warded by chaco
DGB - heard noise, warded by elvis
Unknown:
Chaco - Heard noise. Warded Dram.
elvis_knits - Heard noise. Used ward. DGB
Wickedestjr - Heard noise. Used ward. VP-
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If someone did rez CSL, they should probably claim.
Okay, quick glance through what I had on SlySly showed nothing really tangible. What you're saying there with Nico makes a lot of sense. It's true he wasn't under a lot of suspicion at that point, but I'll have to look back to check if there's inconsistencies between Elli's reads and the proposed lists that Nico could be referencing.
Yeah, SlySly's going to flip out.
Wicked's town remember? He warded VP Night 0.
He acknowledged seeing the hammer in his voting post, I believe.Drench wrote:On CSL L+1'ing: The difference between L and his L+1 was 2 minutes. I would say that it's feasible that CSL simply didn't see Nico's self-hammer. Makes it more a null-tell more than anything.
I'm going to go iso Nico to see if I can pull anything Phate missed.-
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Nico #2: Reads like Sajin's town
Bad news for Phate - Thread #671: The list Nico was probably referring to. SlySly's not on the list entirely. Still weird that he's so particular about SlySly's name (I doubt he would've counted to see there were only 24 names and SlySly's name was missing - more likely he was looking for SlySly's name and didn't find it), but it's now far from damning.
Nico #14+16: viking, semi, Drench, evilsnail, E_K. At least one is probably distancing on the way out - it feels remarkably unnatural for scum to list all townies on such a list.
That's really it actually. While we clear up some stuff last night, I'm going to try and see if there's any remaining targets from yesterday.
Oh, and whoever did the Iec Murder probably does not intend on going Murderer, so you should claim. The others are free to follow suit if they so wish .-
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iLord Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1646
- Joined: July 31, 2008
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-
iLord Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1646
- Joined: July 31, 2008
-
-
iLord Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1646
- Joined: July 31, 2008
-