Open 231: My Name is Earl (Game Over)

[XScorpion]

Vote: d3x

for voting someone who replaced Magic's lamest villain.

[XScorpion]

Why Aururus?

[XScorpion]

You could have picked anyone else who had a vote, yet you chose Aururus. Was this a random choice or is there some reason you picked him over everyone else?

[XScorpion]

And by everyone else I mean Col. Cathart or Adrien.

[XScorpion]

OK that's fine

[XScorpion]

Careful? Why careful, of all adjectives?
Coaching are we?

[XScorpion]

XScorpion (2) - Xite91, Adrien C

No.

XS21- Plz define 'Coaching' for me. I understand the concept, but I want to hear how you define it before following up with more questions for you.

Coaching as in one person telling another person how to play. Usually associated with scum telling scum how to play but it happens with town too.

[XScorpion]

I never said coaching required someone to give good advice.
So to answer your question, very plausible.

[XScorpion]

@Scorpion, how much do you believe it was coaching.

As much as I believe anything else said in RVS, in other words, not enough to vote beefster for it.

[XScorpion]

Yeah, voting with no explanation is really pro-town. </sarcasm>

[XScorpion]

It can be.

How?

1. assuming I am town. #20 (minor)

Delicious WIFOM.

I'm gonna throw out a guess of a Budja/d3x scumteam right now.

[XScorpion]

Wagon go!

unvote
Vote: Budja

[XScorpion]

It's WIFOM because Beefster never said anywhere that he assumed you were town.

[XScorpion]

Post #20 kinda implied it. But as I said before, point 2 is the important one anyway. Point 1 was mostly tacked on. (...and I don't think you know what WIFOM means.)

I guess WIFOM isn't the best word to describe what you're doing, I think misrepresentation or strawman is a better term.
Your point 2 is dependent on point 1,

Also, contradicts above.

and you admit point 1 is weak, so your whole argument is weak.

Unexplained votes have more pressure at this early stage where cases are quite scanty.

This is total bs. Unexplained votes put no pressure on anyone at all, because those votes are scummy and anti-town. I would absolutely love scum to vote for me without explaining why, it'll help town figure out obv. scum.

[XScorpion]

I was already voting for d3x. I think both d3x and budja are scum. I'm simply trying to push a wagon on whichever one I can.

[XScorpion]

I'm going to ignore all "unexplained vote" discussion from now. Its not scummy.

It's not scummy, it's anti-town. As is ignoring discussion.

[XScorpion]

And why exactly do you suspect d3x? You've said that voting without a reason is scummy - and yet, your vote on d3x took place in the RVS stage. You've yet to provide a solid reason for why you want to lynch him.

If you suspect both, you could easily have switched your votes earlier, when you insinuated that you suspected budja for voting . But you didn't. You waited until someone else had voted before changing.

Yes, voting without a reason is scummy, which is exactly why I suspect d3x. Did you miss the part where he joined budja in voting beef without giving any reasons? Obvious scummy bandwagoning is obvious.
Yes, I could have changed my vote, but since I find them equally scummy, there was no reason. I swapped votes because I don't care which one dies today, as long as it's one of them, and Budja became the more likely candidate.

Are you refering to Voting w/o reasons listed? I don't want to put words in your mouth, I'd just like a little clarification before following up with possible questions.

Voting without reasoning is anti-town, as is ignoring discussion. I would not rank them as high as say, quickhammers or rolefishing in terms of scummy behaviour.

FoS Xite for suggesting claims on earl.
FoS nocase for not having a case (ironic) on adrien c when we are clearly out of RVS, and dodging Xite's request for an explanation.

yo, xscorpion, i got my eye on you.

Is that a FoS? Any particular reason or are you just throwing my name out there for the lulz?

On second thought...

I know something that would make them claiming help me to catch scum.

Yeah no.

unvote
Vote: Xite

Xite is hiding information, breadcrumbing power role and rolefishing for Earl. @all: Which do you think more likely: scum or PR? I think the former.

[XScorpion]

You must have a different definition of rolefishing than I do. Last time I checked, trying to find out what roles people are is rolefishing, no matter how many people you are asking.
So you admit to hiding information from town. Thanks for the clarification.
If you actually are town, or god forbid a real PR, you just completely screwed yourself by hinting to scum who you are.

[XScorpion]

If you are a PR, that is insanely anti-town.
If you are town, and scum kills you, then we won't know whatever information (assuming it is useful) you know since you won't have a chance to tell us, and then you'll have been useless.
Or you are just scum and trying to distract us from your partners. I like this option.

[XScorpion]

Are you suggesting Xite is more likely PR than scum?
I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[XScorpion]

It seems that town agrees that hiding information is pro-town or something? Clearly you might as well lynch me because I don't plan on hiding or voting without giving reasons right away.
I'd love for you to explain to me how it's pro-town to throw out votes with no justification, because I never learned to play that way. Only scum have any reason to vote and explain themselves later, in order to cover themselves. Town shouldn't have anything to hide.

I suggest you stop this discussion now.

I suggest you give your view on xite.

[XScorpion]

I struggle to see how the reaction to a vote would be anything other than requesting an explanation. If an explanation wasn't given, then I would immediately cry "anti-town."

and sometimes revealing your line of thought is just not the optimal move at a given point in time.

So you confirm that hiding information is pro-town. Huh.

There's a reason that voting without immediate justification is frowned on.

[XScorpion]

If he is town, then what do you think about him admitting to hiding information? Do you think that is pro-town?

[XScorpion]

Explain to me how hiding information helps town in any way.

[XScorpion]

eg. I am cop. I don't tell you -> pro-town

I'm going to repeat my question before: do you actually think xite is a PR?

If you see something scummy, you should point it out so that the town knows. That's how I've played this game since I started almost a year ago. If you want to hide your suspicions and vote without telling people why, what's the point of this discussion anyway? And how are we supposed to figure out who is scum? I'm still not seeing how hiding information makes any sense at all, unless you are a PR, and I highly doubt Xite is.

[XScorpion]

Think about Cop having innocent result on someone.

Blah blah blah more PR discussion. Yes, it makes sense for cops/docs to hide themselves. Now explain why it makes any sense for Xite to withhold information from town, without suggesting that he is a PR. What benefit could town possibly have from less information? I do not share the belief that a regular townie should know anything other than what the rest of town knows. Good townies should be as open as possible. Secrecy is scummy.

[XScorpion]

You are aware that these are 2 completely different things, right? Yeah, you are.

Semantics.

Explain to me how RoleFishing Xite is ProTown

are you using 'rolefishing' as an adjective or a verb here?
If it's an adjective, then no.
If it's a verb, then I'm not rolefishing, I'm trying to stop people from hiding information, which is anti-town/scummy.

considering you just finished saying that it's a main reason you're Voting him/her. You're even suggesting that Xite may in fact be a PR.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. How many times do I need to say I think Xite ISN'T a PR, and is actually scum?

Hey XS- What do you think of Beefster? Thus far you've only mentioned him to bring a case against Budja and myself.

Beefster got lynched on day 1 in an ongoing game as town for the same reasons you guys are attacking him now. I'd rather wait to get a better read on him than lynch him so soon again.

And if we're Scum together for it, how do you account for Col's "terrible" Vote in p83 and nocase's FoS in p98?

I'm leaning less towards you as scum. I would like to ask why you suddenly decided to start explaining your votes though. Is there a reason why I'm worthy of making a case but Beefster wasn't?

[XScorpion]

The line between scummy and anti-town is heavily influenced by perception. It's as blurry as my vision after 10 bottles of vodka. If you think you can clearly separate all scummy things from all anti-town things you are either the God of Mafiascum, or simply fooling yourself.

[XScorpion]

Everyone knows Jefferson was actually a mafia godfather.
I wouldn't buy anything he said.

[XScorpion]

I have British heritage, so perhaps you can understand my skepticism towards him and the other traitors.

[XScorpion]

I'm pointing out that you are blurring your own lines of distinction to suit your 'case'.

More semantics. Does it really mean that much to you whether or not what he is doing is scummy or anti-town? How about this: Xite's play is BAD. Is that an acceptable term for you? Now, would you care to actually comment on his play or are you just going to tunnel me?

blah blah youre rolefishing

Explain to me how telling Xite that he is horrible if he is a PR is rolefishing.

How many times must you say it? Well a first would be nice. Aside from that, if you're not suggesting that {s}he is a PR, then you sure are allowing for the possibility.

Guess what, it's possible that anyone is a PR. That's how this game is set up. A first? I already said that I thought when I asked everyone to answer my question of whether you thought Xite was more likely to be a PR or scum. You have yet to answer this, btw.

And you didn't think it worthwhile to bring this up until now because...?

Because it's not my responsibility to defend other people.

[XScorpion]

It's funny because you aren't voting for someone. Vote.

[XScorpion]

Who is your top suspect?

[XScorpion]

I am reading.
He hasn't given a clear answer.

[XScorpion]

Well, given that people seem to love hiding information here, I figured it makes sense to ask questions and get straight answers rather than make assumptions.

[XScorpion]

I'd ask for an explanation other than 'he's a slippery guy,' but that feels like a waste of my time.

[XScorpion]

Yes, I'm obviously lurking in this game </sarcasm>.

On the subject of lurking, Xite, get your ass back in here.

[XScorpion]

There is no way we can be sure of Xite's intentions short of him dying or a cop finding him guilty.

[XScorpion]

Win the game. Aren't you?

[XScorpion]

Lynch scum. Aren't you?

[XScorpion]

I could ask you the same question.

[XScorpion]

@AdrienC: You are convinced Xite is town because...?

[XScorpion]

You are RoleFishing Xite because you are allowing for the possibility that {s}he is a Town PR. You are pushing for information that is 'hidden' and you and Budja already had it out over PRs hiding information from the Town. You are trying to force a Claim and that's RoleFishing. Btw, you didn't start by calling the play horrible, you started by trying to out Xite...

Are you even reading my arguments anymore? I might as well just quote myself rather than actually argue anything with you.

Guess what, it's possible that anyone is a PR. That's how this game is set up. A first? I already said that I thought when I asked everyone to answer my question of whether you thought Xite was more likely to be a PR or scum. You have yet to answer this, btw.

There's a huge difference and yes, it matters. If it didn't, then why would you directly say a behavior is not one, it is the other. And then when you're called on it, you say it's the same thing and cry 'semantics debate'.

The line between scummy and anti-town is heavily influenced by perception. It's as blurry as my vision after 10 bottles of vodka. If you think you can clearly separate all scummy things from all anti-town things you are either the God of Mafiascum, or simply fooling yourself.

If you have a meta read on a player that is well on the path to a MisLynch {and you're fighting to get a counterWagon going}, why would you not say anything? I'm not asking you to defend someone else, but helping the Town to avoid a MisLynch is something you're supposed to do... if you're Town.

I'm trying to help town avoid a mislynch by telling you to vote Xite. Clearly no one agrees with the things I'm saying though, so why should I bother caring about whether Beefster lives or dies?

[XScorpion]

xscorpion, what do you think of what i just quoted?

I think AdrienC is getting other people to scumhunt for him.

XScorpion's most recent post was...well, let's just say, when he said "why should I bother caring about whether Beefster lives or dies", my scum sense was tingling. Town aligned players should care about other town aligned players dying.

I'm sorry to inform you that I haven't got a chance to investigate Beefster so I don't know if he's scum or not, because you seem to be under the impression that I'm a cop who got to investigate beefster before the day began.

[XScorpion]

I'm sticking to my Budja vote. I've realized that he's been pretty dodgy around answering questions. He's hiding something.

Are you paying attention? Hiding something isn't scummy anymore, town decided that it's totally ok for people to not tell everything they know because it's the new pro-town thing. Why else would people be voting for me and not Xite?

[XScorpion]

You said to save us from a mislynch, vote Xite.

Because Xite is scum.

Therefore you imply that the Beefster vote is a mislynch.

Putting words in my mouth in here too huh? I never said Beefster was definitely town, nor that he couldn't be scum with Xite.

Therefore I am not under the impression that you believe him to be a townie, since a mislynch is the lynching of a townie.

Correct, I don't believe him to be a townie. I don't have a read on him at all.

Therefore when you say "I don't care if he lives or dies" it suggests that you don't care if a townie lives or dies.

You proved Beefster was town? How?

Therefore you are scum.

I am not, so your logic sucks.

[XScorpion]

right, so . . . ? i feel like i'm talking to a tight-lipped robot.

So he's a lazy bastard. What's your point?

[XScorpion]

I'm sorry, are you asking me to scumhunt for you? Do you have some sort of handicap that prevents you from determining who is scum, or do you think I have some sort of magic scum-finding ability that tells me everyone's alignment?

[XScorpion]

Delicious hypocrisy.

[XScorpion]

Does it take you that much effort to go like this?

"Therefore I am under the impression that you believe him to be a townie, since a mislynch is the lynching of a townie."

no

There, I did it for you.

[XScorpion]

You seem to forget the part where I said I don't care about beefster, because I don't know what alignment he is, haven't paid attention to him at all in this game, and because I still want Xite to die.
Alright, I'll make you a deal. We can lynch Beefster today, and Xite tomorrow. Is that what you would prefer?

[XScorpion]

Under what conditions would you vote for Xite?

I haven't paid attention to him because it's not my job to do all of town's scumhunting by myself, which is what you people seem to be expecting of me.
Suspect how? Didn't you just say that you thought we were scumbuddies? If voting for him means that I can get Xite killed then that's fine, Beefster has the same probability as everyone else of being scum.

[XScorpion]

Yes.

[XScorpion]

Lolk.

[XScorpion]

You realized I recently stopped caring about what you think?

[XScorpion]

Haha
I think Confid is the only person here who actually knows my meta

[XScorpion]

Wow I'm so stupid.
I almost thought you might read my post and bother to go look up my meta...no, that'd be just silly.

[XScorpion]

Like I said, it'd be silly for me to think you actually had, or cared to find, any clue about how I play.

[XScorpion]

That's not possible unless you actually know what alignment I am.

[XScorpion]

It sounds almost as though you think you are being more useful to town than I am...

[XScorpion]

Well then I'd feel bad to break your illusory reality so you just go run along and be a good boy now.

[XScorpion]

Here, I'll be nice and link you to scum meta.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 13&start=0
Don't worry, you don't have to read much. In fact, it's the shortest (in terms of time) game on this site.

[XScorpion]

You are aware he replaced right?

[XScorpion]

Ok just making sure.

[XScorpion]

Why are you in such a hurry to end the day? Nervous?

unvote
Vote: Budja

[XScorpion]

Because a quick day is a good day.

This is horrible.

I have reads I am reasonably confidant with and your arguments with others are clotting up the thread with irrelevance.

Do you think the rest of town feels the same way?

[XScorpion]

Yay for convenient links.

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=14613&start=0
^^ Here's what happens when days are too quick.

[XScorpion]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 13&start=0

[XScorpion]

Ironically, you want to lynch the only person who hasn't given any suspects/lynch candidates.

[XScorpion]

So basically you don't think he was playing too many games, or you think that playing so many games wasn't actually affecting his performance.

[XScorpion]

Since when was I voting Adrien?

[XScorpion]

At the top of the page you voted for him. You are now on Budja, true, but you were one of the four AC votes on the page.

...what game are you playing?

[XScorpion]

Still think there is at least one scum amongst that group of THREE?

[XScorpion]

He Fos'd me a while back. Pay attention.

[XScorpion]

Oh noes...
Rhinox, are you a jester again?

[XScorpion]

Rhinox is more worth keeping around.

You know this how?

I'd like to be able to defend myself without having to read your mind.

You had no problem with it the first time.

[XScorpion]

How does that make him no longer scummy?

[XScorpion]

What if Rhinox lurks too?

[XScorpion]

Well at the moment, he still hasn't posted anything besides saying hello.

[XScorpion]

Well at least we have 12 days for the replacements to do something useful...

[XScorpion]

When was I ever a jester?

Paris mafia II. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 52&t=13100

[XScorpion]

Yeah it doesn't please me quite so much.
Getting annoying at people not posting in my games... http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 51&start=0 even got suspended, wtf is that.

The fact that this game is filled to the brim with people who don't actually explain votes on people is especially annoying. I'm not sure how many of the culprits are scum and how many are just failtown (inb4ImCalledAHypocrite), so all I can do is vote and hope I hit the right one.

[XScorpion]

Oh haha... yeah forgot about that. But we weren't really jesters, we were still an informed minority scum team.

You were closer to jesters than mafia, given that you had no nightkill and your goal was to purposely get lynched.

Shouldn't this tell you that "not explaining votes" is not a reliable scum tell in this game? maybe you should try scumhunting a different way.

I'm all up for simply killing everyone who doesn't explain their votes. If scum wins this way then I will blame town for sucking.

unvote
Vote: Nocase

Post or die.

[XScorpion]

D3x told us in advance that he might be busy. And he posted more recently than nocase.

[XScorpion]

holy shit.

[XScorpion]

Sure.
Congratulations to town on outing the cop on day 1.

I highly doubt he's lying. Are you seriously suggesting we still lynch him?

[XScorpion]

No need for a cc right now, we could have just waited till the day before Lylo to get a cc. I think this is a huge mistake.

I highly doubt it because if there is a cop and beefster is lying (50-50 shot), then the cop could claim the day before Lylo and guarantee we nail one scum.

[XScorpion]

@ConfidAnon and Rhinox: Why do you not think I'm scum with Beefster?

@People voting for me:

XS is also the only player, other than Beefster himself, to have never voted for Beefster.

Why does this make me scummy?

[XScorpion]

'Dunno?' What kind of stupid answer is that? It sounds to me like you are just hopping on AV's bandwagon without actually thinking.

[XScorpion]

Vote: NoCase

Why?

[XScorpion]

It's not just that. It's that in combination with everything else I said about Beefster's interactions with you.

So basically, I haven't actually been scummy, I've simply been blessed by a scum's defense, and I didn't rush to lynch him as hastily as everyone else. OK.

[XScorpion]

You know you could have at least TRIED to be helpful to town by giving just a one sentence (at least!) explanation for your vote other than just throwing it out there.

Just to be clear:
AV is voting me because Beefster defended me and I didn't lynch him.
Nocase is voting me because he's suspicious of me from day 1 (?)
D3x is voting me for the same reason (I suspect)

Now let's suppose that today ends, I get lynched, and I flip town. Who else do the three of you think could be scum? Rhinox at least gave his top 3 suspects, can you as well, with reasoning (I know the latter might be hard to do, but bear with me)?

[XScorpion]

Do you think you've done more scumhunting than me? If so, why?
Contribution? How about this: I honestly have no clue who is scum, since voting for AV/d3x would just be a biased OMGUS vote, not to mention that I can't exactly use the argument that they didn't vote Beefster as a case for scumminess. Add on the fact that my picks for scum yesterday (Xite and Budja) are almost certainly town (less Budja than Confid), and I haven't got any idea what to do.

[XScorpion]

BTW: Any particular reason you think AV is far less likely to be scum than d3x?

[XScorpion]

He fooled me because I wasn't paying attention to him as closely as I should have been (as I said yesterday, I didn't particularly care if Beefster lived or died), due to the fact that I wasn't particularly interested in participating in his lynch on day 1 AGAIN (I wanna play a full game with him, damnit!).

[XScorpion]

why don't you start by analyzing other people's cases or interactions, or rereading the thread, or reading some players in isolation, or . . . god, i don't know, the usual things you do when you play mafia.

Well see, normally this is what I do, but this is the first time I've played with people who think that:

voting without (immediately) stating a reason is neither anti-town nor scummy.

So perhaps you can understand why this game is a bitch to read in ISO. That's why I might as well just ask people questions now rather than re-read, since all I'm gonna find in ISOs are stupid things like:

unvote. vote: xscorpion. he's a slippery guy.

Umm... yup.

UnVote/Vote:Beefster

So yeah, whoever is town, thanks a lot for making the game more tedious than necessary.

What exactly about the AV case do you disagree with?

[XScorpion]

Catching up? You made a vote. Surely you already thought about it before you made it?

[XScorpion]

Vote: NoCase

This is exactly the kind of nonsense that hurts town. Seriously, I'm just going to vote the next person to vote without explanations out of spite.

[XScorpion]

unvote. vote: xscorpion.

You already explained your vote earlier. Nice try.

How do you know there's a doc and how do you know there's no roleblocker?

There is probably a doctor because no one died last night.
If there is a cop and doctor then there is a roleblocker, so I dunno wtf is going through nocase's head.

[XScorpion]

Vote: NoCase

Why?

[XScorpion]

@nocase- I think it was an over-reaction followed by an attempt to lend credibility to the FakeClaim. Generally, I call it a slip.

You insult me, sir!

[XScorpion]

Button is around on the site, yet not posting here. He is actively lurking, and has yet to explain his actions. I'm not feeling comfortable with this.

vote: TheButtonman

[XScorpion]

I don't think it's malicious intent, I just think it's a really stupid question. I won't mind if you ignore him.

[XScorpion]

OK how about this: would you like to explain your motives behind the last 3 questions you've asked? Here, I'll even quote them for you:

vox, how okay or not okay are you with getting lynched today?

why would scorp risk drawing a line like that between himself and his scum buddy?

As scum why would scorpy draw more attention to himself with his post-claim antics?

As someone voting me, I don't understand your need to ask any of these questions. Do you want me lynched? Or are you looking for someone to answer these questions because you want someone to confirm your suspicions?

[XScorpion]

Col. Cathart's play doesn't give very much info onto his alignment. Yes, he supported a Beefster wagon, but that could simply be distancing and he may have planned to unvote later, but never got a chance.

[XScorpion]

xscorpion, i appreciate your criticism. why don't you back it up with doing something remotely meaningful at some point in this game?

i don't mean to be snarky but excuse me while i don't answer this question. i can get around to it later if you want me to.

[XScorpion]

I steal yo soul and cast Lightning Lvl. 1,000,000
Your body explodes into a fine bloody mist, because you are only a Lvl. 2 Druid.

[XScorpion]

Pokemon.

[XScorpion]

I probably will soon, too

[XScorpion]

I highly doubt it because if there is a cop and beefster is lying (50-50 shot), then the cop could claim the day before Lylo and guarantee we nail one scum.

It was bad play on Beefster's part. I didn't expect scum would make such a reckless move.
And I guess I wanted to say "I told you so" about Beefster being town. So much for that idea :/

[XScorpion]

Eh, there were still enough people around to push another wagon. Confid, myself, Beefster, d3x, Buttonman (he didn't even get to post his opinions so I don't see him as being a guaranteed Beef vote), AV. That's a lot of people.

[XScorpion]

Well I liked the Budja wagon, and no one seemed to complain when I voted for him.

[XScorpion]

My vote isn't budging until Don posts his content.
Assuming he does, I'm leaning more towards d3x than Aurorus.

[XScorpion]

d3x has a lot less to go on than Aurorus. Basically he's had one attitude all game:

My skim tells me that I'm still ok with Beefy and/or XS getting the rope.

He's only made serious votes/cases on 2 different players. Aurorus seems to have done a lot more scumhunting than he has.

[XScorpion]

Because that slot has been filled with players who haven't posted any decent content whatsoever all game. I'm not prepared to end the day until I get some feedback from that spot, damnit.

[XScorpion]

what makes you think i'm going to give you "decent" content? you know who i am, right?

Then why do you deserve to live?
More don votes plz.

[XScorpion]

Geeze Don, what's with you and quickhammering before people can claim? Last game you did it in, you were scum too...

[XScorpion]

Is there a reason you hammered before vox could claim or are you really just that bloodthirsty?

[XScorpion]

Claim: Townie.

So...you guys think that scum had absolutely nothing with AV getting lynched yesterday?
Lol.

Vote: Don_Johnson

[XScorpion]

No, but you're the one who prefers to hammer rather than post content.

[XScorpion]

Well my options are kinda limited to d3x, since everyone else is pretty globally accepted as town...

unvote
Vote: d3x

although really it doesn't matter. One of the two of us dies today, then you no-lynch, then the other dies.

[XScorpion]

Well right now, probability says it won't be, since it looks like a 50% chance that I'm lynched (in which case it won't be the last day from my PoV), and a 50% chance that d3x gets lynched instead, but the odds of him being scum are not 100%.

[XScorpion]

Well the fact that all my reads in this game have been wrong kind of hurts my motivation.

[XScorpion]

Not really.

[XScorpion]

Well let's see...
Beefster is scum.
Don_Johnson is town.
All the people I called scummy for not explaining themselves on day 1 managed to lynch scum.
Yeah I think my reads were wrong.

[XScorpion]

Do you have scumreads besides me? Quick, before you die.

[XScorpion]

Well that's the thing...if d3x wasn't scum, we were screwed cuz you guys would probably kill me the next day...