Scummies Invitational (OVER!!!)

[Incognito]

I don't wanna do Hoopla's survey. I do however wanna do Hoopla.

vote: Hoopla

[Incognito]

I couldn't resist a nice play on words like that.
And as tempting as your new survey is, I don't want to do that one either.

I don't know if you realize this yet, but my vote on you is completely serious.

[Incognito]

Who did you think it would be? Why did you think I'd conform?

[Incognito]

Because, if you're scum, your survey seems like a nice little tactic to clog the thread with noise. I've seen Adel use something similar in at least two of his past scum games, I know he's a player you respect, and so I didn't want to go along the route you wanted me to take just in case this was that kind of tactic.

Will you be answering your own survey? Will you be illuminating us with your insight on people's alignments once answers are received?

[Incognito]

You don't get to ask questions if you refuse to answer mine.

But you already responded to two questions I've asked...?

Hoopla's scum, people. Vote her.

[Incognito]

I think you were in one of them, tajo. That Tofu Mafia game. Adel created a list of questions that everyone went through great effort to answer, and it ended up just clogging the thread and wasting D1 time, which benefited the scum. There was some Newbie Game that he did it in too, but I forget the game number. And as for Hoopla mentioning she's an Adel fan, I can't recall where I read it. Maybe a GTKAS thread or something.

Either way, I'm not really building a meta-case against Hoopla. I'm just saying that I'm immediately distrustful of her intentions with respect to these questions since they're going to take awhile for everyone to answer, they most likely have to be answered in a WoW format which makes people not wanna read the thread anymore, and they could potentially slow the game down, which would benefit her if she's scum.

[Incognito]

Sorry, I was prodded. I'll update this by tomorrow. It's just been a crazy busy week.

[Incognito]

All right. So I'm catching up where I left off (page 2).

I don't really get Tenchi's vote on vollkan back in his post 43; he ends up voting him using "shiny wagon" as the reasoning, which seems joke-y especially with the exclamation point at the end, but I don't get why he specifically chose to wagon vollkan as opposed to one of the other viable wagons. Tenchi, was there some additional reasoning behind your vote? Did vollkan do something that struck you as scummier than any of the other wagon options?

I kinda liked Hoopla's post 44; her final conclusion about lynching one person during Day 1 and possibly lynching higher numbers on subsequent Days makes a lot of sense to me. And the speculation about the one-shot role thing seems mildly townish too. I personally don't know what to think of the role, though I could follow Hoopla's frame of thought and understand why she thinks it could be scum-sided. Post 47, on the other hand, is a pretty blatant strawman of my argument. Why would the tactic of clogging the thread with a questionairre necessarily need to be discussed in a QuickTopic before the game as some kind of strategy? I think it's equally as likely that a her-scum could have just done it completely on her own. Anywho, I'm gonna

unvote

because 44 seemed like a pretty good post to me.



On to page 3...

I don't see why mykonian seems so anti-Tenchi but yet he didn't vote him. That also calls Kmd's "myko is obvtown" comment into question. I don't have a problem with Tenchi questioning Hoopla's poptajo read; I'd say the only thing I didn't like about Tenchi on page 2 was the stuff I mentioned above (the half serious/half joking wagon vote on vollkan). Hmmm, but then there's this:

Right now, I am assuming all this declarations (you and Spyrex, maybe more?) are from meta reads which I am strongly distasteful about.

Why do you find this to be distasteful?

TBH, I was also surprised Incognito was the first nonconformist. For some reason, I think he is not an agressive guy, have we played together before?. Incog, would you define your town playstyle as agressive?

Yep. I'm much more passive as scum. You might remember us playing together way back in Mini 594 - Portal Mafia.



Onto page 4...

Disingenious and a bit overly paranoid in tone; as if acting. Time will tell if just RVS mood but minus.

No. Why do you think it's acting?

Aside from that, I liked the observation that Ojanen made in this post with respect to ckd though.

mykonian is probably town. His case on ckd doesn't really seem scum-motivated to me, but I disagree with the conclusion. I currently don't think ckd is scum here.



Anywho, I'm pretty much caught up to this point. As of now, I'm not feeling the vollkan or ckd wagons. The Tenchi wagon seems to be the best out of all of the current wagons right now, but I'm more interested in something else...

I haven't liked a thing Kinetic has written so far. His first "real" post seems like a whole lot of noise since it's merely a summary of all of his experiences with all of the players. He describes it as getting his meta experience out of the way just in case he needs to call on it later, but I'm not sure I buy that explanation - it's not like Kinetic went into elaborate detail about each and every person he's played with so far; he kept things pretty vague, imo. He's didn't bother to comment on a thing that's happened here so far in that post, and he certainly hasn't seemed to do so in his subsequent posts either. And I reeeeeeeeeeally don't like the policy lynch vote on Empking - I disagree completely that Empking will become a "distraction as town" - it's not like we're completely unable to prod and probe the guy and ask him questions about his stances - and slipping by as scum? How exactly would that happen?

vote: Kinetic

[Incognito]

q21, why vote for the person who "benefited" from the statement rather than the person who made the statement in the first place when your issue seems to be with the statement-maker?

[Incognito]

So... what

do

you think of pops?

[Incognito]

Hoopla, I think you're just mad because you have the hots for me, and I didn't kindly answer your little questionairre like you wanted me to. I had two options when I came into this game:

1)

comply like the other three or so people who complied with your questionairre before me (if I was scum, I would have totally done this making sure my answers are nice and neat and pristine and SO town-ish) or

2)

do something really cool that'll really kick the game off like not complying. I chose the latter option because I thought it would be more fun and would bring out more alignment-revealing information than just complying like everyone else.

And uh, in that post you quoted of mine, I never said anything about seeing you do that questionairre as town or scum; I said that a you-scum could have either said something about this questionairre thing in your QT or just done it completely on your own without even letting your buddies know you were gonna do it. I don't see how you misinterpreted that. Nor do I see how I'm being fake here.

Out of curiosity, what exactly

did

you gather from the responses of people who complied? It seems to me like the only response that's piqued your interest is mine.

-~-~-~-~-~

The impression that gives me is that your vote was a genuine reaction which you try to justify after the fact in 139, so you can say that you had a reason, just before jumping your vote back onto a wagon you feel safe on.

Do you think it's scummy to vote without reason?



Can kinda see the merit behind the q21 wagon, but I feel really lonely out here with my Kinetic vote all by its lonesome. I think Kinetic's looking scummier so far.

[Incognito]

It gets more on the flaccid side for scum reads but that works.

[Incognito]

Incognito (two unnatural reactions already: the antihoopla questionar and the unvote for lame reasons)

Apparently you don't remember playing in a game with me before, but you have the ability to call two of my reactions "unnatural"? Also, what's lame about my reason for unvoting Hoopla?

So, you were doing it to bring out alignment information rather than genuinely finding me scummy? Is that what you're trying to say?

Both, obviously. Are you trying to suggest that I should have had a dead-on set read of you right from the start of the game? I mean, you're acting like you've never seen a person trying to provoke reactions in the early stages of the game before.

Basically, I didn't like the questionairre thing and thought it was more likely to come from a Hoopla-scum than a Hoopla-town. After I read some of your follow-up responses particularly the in-thread speculation about the one-shot Day-ending role, I began to change my mind about you. Why is that difficult for you to understand?

@Kinetic:

I've only played a single game with Empking under an alt account of mine. I didn't think he was bad in that game, and I actually thought that he was fairly easy to read. That's a big part of the reason why I find your suggestion that we should just lynch Empking to get him out of the way highly suspect, though I suppose your experience with him might have just been different from mine. I just get the feeling that people become lazy when it comes to trying to read him since his playstyle is so different from most others and because of that, I'd think he's probably a fairly easy person for scum to push a mislynch on.

I should note however that I really don't have a read on Empking at this point, so I'd like to see more from him.

[Incognito]

Interestingly, my "like list" is pretty similar to tajo's as of right now. I'm half-tempted to put Kmd in there as well even though he hasn't done much - I kinda sorta think that a Kmd-scum wouldn't be as lazy as he has been acting here since I remember him mentioning that he enjoys being scum more than town.

[Incognito]

Heavy page. Trying to keep this brief.

so at what point if you keep getting the same, do you get suspicious? I am sure he is dying to know.

I don't really expect to get the same over and over again from Empking. I think he's one of those players who needs to be left more to his own devices rather than pressure voted or policy lynched.

@Kinetic:

I understand what you're saying with regard to your stance on Empking and how, because this mechanic allows for multiple lynches, we can probably afford a policy lynch if needed. But if that's really the case, why do I get the feeling that you seem content with just having a single lynch Today despite working the whole "this mechanic favors policy lynches" into your reason(s) for wanting to lynch him? Am I wrong about that?

-~-~-~-~

SpyreX, why aren't you scum hunting?

-~-~-~-~

Still not really seeing the case on vollkan. The second point raised by Kmd in his 187 doesn't ring true to me - I felt like vollkan's comment on Kmd

was

basically his way of asking Kmd to clarify further. The first point Kmd raised I can kind of see, but I feel like vollkan's posts afterwards seem ok so far - he seems to be genuinely looking for scum.



Will probably have more comments later. Going to bed for now.

Mod:

Prod imaginality?

[Incognito]

Well, that's what's bugging me. If you still like Tenchi as scum, I'd think you might start trying to look into this alternate wagon stuff that's been happening with Kinetic to see if anything could possibly be drawn from that. Instead, you haven't really commented on it nor have you shared thoughts on Kinetic either. You have no opinion on any of that?

[Incognito]

Kinetic: Fair enough.

Hoopla: I already responded to 163. What are you talking about?

unvote, vote: SpyreX

This doesn't leave Kinetic off the hook, but I'm not liking post 211 at all. SpyreX, what's so bad about two people agreeing with one another? What about those quotes makes you dislike Slicey?


Seriously, my "who I would lynch" Today list is beginning to look something like this:

Kinetic
SpyreX
populartajo

Tajo's more a gut thing right now; I'm having real trouble believing that he thinks my reaction to Hoopla's questionairre was unnatural. I mean, DGB who isn't even in this game commented on it and seemed to lean town on me because of it. I really think a tajo-town would've shared a similar thought process to DGB for some reason. Plus he's way too lurky here for my taste.

[Incognito]

Its mostly gut. Although the response of "If you think he's town and I mimicked him thus I'm town" fairly clearly illustrates the point I was making and why I've got that gut read.

Your paraphrasing here is pretty different from what he actually said though. I'm not speaking for Slicey here, but I'm not even entirely sure his usage of the same terminology as me was even purposely done - I can't see why you automatically assumed it was rather than just questioning him on it and asking if it was a line that came from his own mind when writing it or if he just copy-pasted what I wrote.

-~-~-~-~-~

If q21's town, he needs to do a damn good job in the next few days trying to convince us to lynch someone other than him. Deadline's gonna be here in 3 days. I personally don't have much of a read of him. My major qualm about this wagon though is that it has the 3 people who I'm most suspicious of on it.

[Incognito]

Incognito said he can kinda see the merit behind the wagon when it first started, but that he was feeling lonely with his Kinetic vote. Now he said he doesn't really have a read on q21. That could be a scumbag who sees he doesn't need to tarnish himself by being on a townlynch if q21 is town after all.

Yeah, I could initially but then I got a bad feeling about populartajo who's gone AWOL since he placed his vote on q21, and I began to second-guess whether or not this wagon was actually on scum. SpyreX is another one who gave me bad vibes. Your first paragraph basically outlines my opinion pretty strongly - I don't like the shape of the later wagon.

[Incognito]

So... you ignore completely what I just said?

[Incognito]

Hey Hoopla. What do you think of SpyreX and tajo?

[Incognito]

Why don't you agree with the SpyreX hate? What's he done that's town-ish?

[Incognito]

vollkan, what's your read of Kmd?

[Incognito]

Ooooooooh let's make a loop! I'm not sure you are town either. Should I vote you too?

What's scummy about me, mykonian?

[Incognito]

I've already made it decently well known that Tajo is town.

Right, because of a single question that he asked on page 2 of the thread that could have easily come from either tajo-town or tajo-scum. How does his later contribution factor into that read?

SpyreX reminds me of how I used to play scum - by overcompensating presence-wise to pull off a believable performance. I think he 'acts' a lot more as scum (I'm sure you all know how SpyreX acts). This game he has been lacklustre and almost disinterested which looks more like a town quality for him, even if he isn't powerhunting like I know he can.

Prove this. Go into specific games of his and show me where he's acted disinterested as town. From what I know of SpyreX, I always thought he was usually actually

interested

in finding scum and much more active when he's town too. I mean, look at the guy's sig for crying out loud.

Suddenly you are asking the right question. Why do people have to prove Spyrex is town?

Because Ojanen came forward and specifically said she disagrees with my SpyreX-hate. I personally haven't seen anything town come from him, so I'm asking her why she thinks otherwise. Plus, while voting me, she said she pretty much doesn't have a town read on me so I'm guessing that with SpyreX she actually

does

have one.

Either way, why don't you STFU and let her answer the question on her own? kthx.

[Incognito]

So... in all those words, q21's just basically claiming to be a vig? Ok, so obviously we're not lynching him Today. q21, why aren't you exactly

doing

anything though?

Unnatural with the image I remember of you, as I said in some of my previous posts. Lets just say that Id expect a player of your level to use the Hoopla questions to scumhunting benefits regardless of Hoopla's alignment.

But you said you didn't even remember playing with me before...

And that Hoopla question crap was boring as hell. I didn't like it.

Also also, here was my reasoning for changing my mind on Hoopla:

Basically, I didn't like the questionairre thing and thought it was more likely to come from a Hoopla-scum than a Hoopla-town. After I read some of your follow-up responses particularly the in-thread speculation about the one-shot Day-ending role, I began to change my mind about you. Why is that difficult for you to understand?

Now the real question is tajo, why have you been lurking?

-~-~-~-~

Uhhh, SpyreX, Slicey isn't even in one of those groups that voted for q21. So I don't really get why you a) brought all that up and then b) voted Slicey to begin with. Why not vote someone like Kinetic who's the leading wagon

and

actually fits in one of those q21-voting groups?

[Incognito]

"Not enough time to parse it" sounds like a cop out, btw.

[Incognito]

If we do go by this:

q21 (7) -- Ojanen, mykonian, Empking, populartajo, imaginality, Kinetic, SpyreX

I'm against lynching Ojanen and mykonian. Empking's a meh. The final four, though, are pretty much interchangeable to me.

[Incognito]

Happy birthday, Kinetic lol.

[Incognito]

tajo putting his vote on you now can hardly be considered a power bus. You do bring up a decent point though - I can't see why a tajo-scum would vote you while calling me town when my wagon is currently larger than yours. Especially when he's been saying that he hasn't liked things about my play anyway.

I don't have a read on Empking. A no-read lynch is ok with me at this point.

Kinetic I've covered - that said, if either Empking or Kinetic flip scum though, then Kinetic's obviously clear since Kinetic's been at his neck all game.

imaginality has been lurky. I am ok with a lurker lynch on Day 1 too.

Why is tajo town?

[Incognito]

EBWOP: then either Kinetic

or Empking

is obviously clear*

[Incognito]

Blah blah blah.

unvote, vote: Kinetic

[Incognito]

Btw, mykonian, your case sucks monkey balls. Because I don't agree with yours, Ojanen's, and Hoopla's reads, I'm scum? Who the fuck made you king?

[Incognito]

I don't at all see how my vote is "the easy way out". I've pretty much been attacking you all through Day 1. My reasons have been outlined before but if anyone needs a summary:

- Kinetic's been pushing for a policy lynch throughout Day 1 while maintaining the same reads (supporting a q21 lynch, ckd lynch, and Empking lynch) throughout the Day. He hasn't shown any signs of updating any of those reads or prodding and probing his suspects - he's just seemed content with supporting their lynches for some unknown reason(s) until he switched his vote to imaginality recently and now me.
- As I mentioned, he's done little to no scum-hunting. He mentioned that he's had low activity recently, but I don't remember him mentioning that was the case earlier.
- With both of our wagons jumping near the top, it's obviously looking like it's going to be a him or me situation, so I'm obviously going to vote him. Duh.

@SpyreX: I said I was meh on Empking. But I think it should be pretty clear from my posting throughout D1 that I found Kinetic to be more suspicious than him.

[Incognito]

What was there for him to defend exactly? You didn't bring up any points relative to this game that showed why you thought he was scum here - you just kept citing this background information that you had with him in past games.

And you're acting like I just spent my whole Day focusing on you - while I was questioning stuff related to you, I was also scum-hunting elsewhere and bringing attention to other players who weren't being put in the spotlight who I thought deserved to be there. I don't like the way you're now misrepping my play here.

And uh, yeah? Look at the other wagons. Nobody else has as many votes as either one of us, so it's pretty clear that we're the leading wagons. I already said that I would be fine with a Spy, poptajo, you, or even imaginality lynch, your wagon has the most votes, deadline's right there... I think you get the idea.

[Incognito]

I'm town. You disagree with me, this makes you more likely scum. I think Ojanen, Hoopla, Spyrex, Kinetic are all town. You disagree with them. This makes you even more likely scum.

Yeah, because your reads are proven to be 100% accurate in all of your games on Day 1s 100% of the time.

Go learn to play Mafia.

[Incognito]

Because you're annoying. I've dealt with this kind of stuff from you in at least two past games and it's always the same thing. You disagree with my reads, I disagree with yours, you attack me for disagreeing with yours, and you try to impose your reads on me with a vote or some such thing instead of trying to figure out if I'm even being genuine here.

[Incognito]

lol?

[Incognito]

P.S. if you don't remember that game, you thought krazyness was scum while I thought he was town. Because I thought he was town, you voted me saying that I was buddying up to him because apparently it's "bad" for me to disagree with your reads. It's the same exact thing.

[Incognito]

Kinetic's vanilla claim makes me feel less certain about this lynch since I'd kind of expect scum to claim a PR but at this point, I don't think moving the wagon elsewhere would be productive or feasible. The "scum on the early wagon" comment is bizarre though; prior to this, Kinetic's only scum reads seemed to be q21 and ckd. q21's an early voter on his wagon, yes, but he claimed vig and ckd isn't anywhere on his wagon, period. The other two early voters (vollkan and Slicey) weren't really mentioned much by Kinetic until recently. And even that was a faint mention of vollkan being "at fault for not allowing Kinetic to do anything else but defend himself" apparently.

And I don't at all see how I'm suddenly acting shady.

Kinetic, what's your current read of ckd?

[Incognito]

At work posting from my phone.

ckd, you have just as much power as q21 does to prevent a no lynch. why aren't you voting on a leading wagon?

mykonian's SpyreX town tell is horrific - it takes little to no insight to point out that two people's reasons for voting someone similar. Not only that but hilarilously, SpyreX only pointed that out when he was prompted to; not on his own. and who was he prompted by? me.

I'm beginning to change my mind on Hoopla, btw. I could easily see her as scum again at this point. She hasn't scum-hunted in like a year and has been using her supposed me-hate as an excuse for that.

I don't even know Ojanen's reasons for voting me but I think she's just misguided town at this point.

p.s. I'm not gonna be around at deadline to claim since I'm at work so unless you're scum hoping you'll swipe a PR with my lynch, it should be obvious that Kinetic is Today's lynch whether you agree with it or not.

[Incognito]

Ok, so if I'm going to be Today's lynch, you can bet I'm not going down easily, and I'm going to do the best job I can to ensure that every dripping morsel of information is gotten from my lynch. Because seriously, I

am

pro-town and this wagon on me

is

crap.

To start off: I'd like every person voting me currently to state their reasons. Likewise, I'd like every person who says they're NOT seeing me as scum to say WHY they say that also.

I'm not stupid to believe that all of the scum are voting me and all of the townies are supporting me - it's pretty obvious that there's probably some scum-support on my wagon and some scum-support off my wagon too.

I'm LESS concerned about Hoopla's and mykonian's reasons because they've stated them previously but I'm particularly concerned about imaginality's and SpyreX's reasons.

With respect to imaginality, you previously had the following to say about me:

* Incognito I read as strongly town

Why am I suddenly lynch-worthy?

Yesterday you said my lynch was good because it might be "informational" - that's a decent reason Yesterday but that reason

TOTALLY DOES NOT FLY TODAY

especially since any mod-confirmed information that could be obtained from my lynch will take FOREVER to come about if we're doing multiple lynches. So why am I scum?




With respect to SpyreX, you previously had nothing but good stuff to say about me too. Then suddenly you're "vexed" because of one line from Yesterday, you stated the following with respect to lynches Yesterday:

This stops now.

We are not lynching anyone else today. Period.

The time for that was long past and the simple fact I threw down a vote because I was worried about 0 lynches sure as hell doesn't mean two.

...but yet you went ahead and voted me anyway when you KNEW I wouldn't be around to claim? Why? What's scummy about me now?

I'm starting off with this:

vote: SpyreX

12,000 FINGERS OF SUSPICION: imaginality/Hoopla

You guys claim I'm scum. Back it up with valid, legitimate reasons. Now.

[Incognito]

Incidentally, I'll be at the Caff-Wagon over the weekend. I'll be back on 'Scum by Monday.

[Incognito]

Probably my last post before the weekend.

mykonian, of the people on my wagon Yesterday, I'm suspicious of the three people I mentioned in my above post (SpyreX, Hoopla, and imaginality). Do I think it's likely that all three of them are scum together? Probably not. But I really wouldn't be surprised if 1 or maybe even 2 of those people are scum. I still think you and Ojanen are very likely town.

Quick reasons before I run off: SpyreX for the reasons I mentioned Yesterday along with the new reasons I pointed out above, imaginality for being lurky all during Day 1 and the contradiction I also pointed out above, and Hoopla for not scum-hunting at all Yesterday. You can read through her posts and you'll note that once she began attacking me, she pretty much completely stopped trying to figure people out and instead used her supposed Incog-hate to generate content. Could she be tunnel-visioned town? Sure. But I could see her being lazy scum too who just wanted to get her Incog mislynch in. She hasn't asked me a single question since she began voting me nor has she accounted for anything I've done since that time. That's pro-scum behavior.

Also, does anyone else find it weird that Hoopla brought up the idea that we should ONLY LYNCH ONE PERSON during Day 1 but then she goes ahead and tries to get me lynched too during Day 1 WITHOUT A CLAIM?

I'll be back on Monday to look things through more closely. mykonian, can you put together a case against vollkan in the meantime?

[Incognito]

I'm back from the Caff-wagon.

I've read over the pages I've missed twice now and pretty much nothing is sinking in. Post should come shortly hopefully.

[Incognito]

I still didn't get much from reading the last few pages but as of right now, I'm thinking we probably need to decide on at least one lynch from the following group of people Today:

vollkan
Slicey
imaginality
populartajo
SpyreX

I currently have my vote on SpyreX, but I'll be looking at Slicey ASAP as well as the others to determine if I agree with one of their wagons more. These names are left-overs from the Kinetic wagon since I think we can expect at least 1 maybe 2 additional scum on it after q21, Empking, Kinetic, and me are removed from it. I removed q21 because I'm having a hard time seeing him as scum given his claim and his claimed kill. If he was a Mafia-aligned vig of some sort, he could have just shot at me during the Night and justified it p easily Today while still keeping a hypo buddy of his alive in Empking. This all assumes we were supposed to have 2 kills last Night though.

Also, with q21, I really can't see him as a Serial Killer either - I'm not saying it's impossible, but I've known Patrick on-site for awhile now, and I think Pat-mod is usually not a fan of having multiple scum groups within a game, and I do know that he was the major brainchild behind this setup.


Onto some responses for stuff...

Incognito's not scum. I wanted to see how he and others responded to this wagon on him. His response feels pretty genuine to me.

I don't get this at all. Considering how quickly votes seemed to be coming onto me at the start of Today, do you really think you would've had time to unvote or something of the sort if the vote totals started to get too high and my response hadn't arrived yet?

2.) Having good feelings about Incog evaporate real quick when its "I'm not claiming, you're all just the scum trying to find PR's (although I'm gonna spin this as not a PR claim promise)" If I felt really cool and decided to iso and you were silly enough to have ANY posts on site between that post and deadline you'd be lynched without conversation.

I don't see why that's scummy. That's common Mafia knowledge. If it wasn't me who was the second-leading wagon, I'd be saying the exact same thing I said there if I knew the person getting votes wasn't or probably wasn't gonna be around at deadline. It's absolutely horrendous play to sudden lynch someone without a claim.

More later...

[Incognito]

Oh one other thing that I wanted to mention that I forgot to include in the above post: I can see where Ojanen might get the "SpyreX vote on Empking right before deadline thing being a town-tell", but I'm leaning towards thinking that's more likely to be a null-tell. If SpyreX is scum, I don't think he would have realistically expected that wagon to suddenly rise off the ground even with the unexplained vote made by Emp on Kinetic - there just wasn't enough time for people to switch, the town was seeming fairly apathetic for most of Day 1, and it would have forced way too many people to eat their words for the wagon to actually become viable. Also, Empking flipped Goon, so he'd be more bus-bait than an Empking-scum PR. If Empking DID flip a scum PR, I would probably put more weight into Spy's switch being a potential town-tell.

[Incognito]

q21 brings up a decent point about SpyreX - I forgot that bit about him wanting to vig Empking on the chance that Kinetic flipped town. I think that probably cancels out the point I brought up about a hypo Spy-scum knowing an Emp-lynch wouldn't be successful; that said, I still wouldn't call it a complete town-tell since I think Spy is more than capable of saying something like that as scum too.

-~-~-~

Reading through Slicey, the biggest things I've noticed about him are as follows:

-~-

in his first post in response to Hoopla's questions, he mentions that he hopes Empking is the first lynch of the Day because he doesn't enjoy playing with him:

2. Don't know enough of the players to really say. I'm hoping for Empking, I don't really enjoy playing with him.

I hadn't noticed this before but the above statement in and of itself contradicts his later comment on Empking that he used to eventually vote Kinetic over:

Kinetic, what I don't understand is, is that you keep talking about how bad Empking is in other games and how much of a liability he is, yet you're not commenting on him in THIS game, which is what actually matters. Empking has made enough posts that you can comment on, whether you think it's townie posts or scummy posts, yet you have said nothing on him in this game.

You're voting him and attacking him for nothing he's done in this game, but his meta and reputation alone.

-~- he mentions that he's always scary inactive during D1 and that he would be getting more involved now that the game was moving along, but I still haven't seen that high level of activity that he promised.

-~- he's consistently mentioned that he opposes my lynch; he didn't specifically mention why at first until he finally did back in his post 394 where he cites some meta-reasoning. Interestingly, in that same post, he compares Kmd's play here to his play in that game, but he didn't mention anything about SpyreX's play here when compared to that game despite the fact that Spy was the person he ended up voting for.

Slicey, why not compare Spy's play here to his play in that Open Game too?

-~-~-~-~-~

Conclusion:

Right now, I'm not opposed to his lynch. He promised additional activity once Day 1 passed, and I haven't seen that higher level of activity. Will do a quick browsing of past games of his to see if this is typical of Slicey-scum asap.

[Incognito]

After quickly browsing through a bunch of Slicey's games, I'm noting that low activity isn't much of a tell for or against Slicey after all. He's been replaced a whole slew of times before as town and has also been able to lurk to victory as scum. Aside from all that, I can't see any glaring differences between his scum and town play either.

Slicey, you need to get in here ASAP to defend yourself against these points and/or claim. I'm ready and willing to hammer at this point.

[Incognito]

Hi. Anyone aside from me thinking mass claim?

[Incognito]

Well, without rereading, my thoughts so far are as follows ("prob-towns" are ones I feel more confident about):

# Hoopla - was thinking scum Yesterday, but her mind-change with respect to me and her vote on Slicey make me think she could be town
# Kmd4390 - prob-town
# imaginality - ?
# Ojanen - prob-town
# curiouskarmadog - town?
# q21 - prob-town
# mykonian - prob-town
# Tenchi - town?
# populartajo - town?

I'm thinking we were most likely dealing with 4 scums. If we have anyone who could be cleared via some kind of an investigation of the sort or something along those lines, we could more easily figure out who should be in our potential lynch pool Today. With the death of vollkan-PR scum, we now know we have as many lynches as we want to use from.

And yeah, to me, imaginality seems like the most likely right now too given issues I cited Yesterday, process of elimination, and vibes.

vote: imaginality

[Incognito]

I support massclaim (obviously).

My top town reads are probably Kmd and mykonian. I really don't see why Kmd is even being considered at this point - he and vollkan were at each other's necks for pretty much the whole game. And with vollkan flipping scum PR, I can't see why Kmd would continuously stick with a voll-vote Day after Day when there've been plenty of other people he could have easily jumped to. Distancing/bussing is possible, but I just don't see it right now.

My scummier reads: imaginality and... I can't really think of a second one right now.

tajo, why is imaginality town?

[Incognito]

Also, still not seeing q21 as an SK for reasons I've mentioned previously.

[Incognito]

Reading through what I've missed, can we at least wait until tajo confirms that what myko is saying is true?

Actually, I'm surprised by the imaginality lynch now assuming imaginality actually was town - myko, if you knew tajo was a town PR, why didn't you think that tajo might have been breadcrumbing some kind of a result when he flat-out called imaginality town?

[Incognito]

DOES IT HURT TO WAIT FOR TAJO TO CONFIRM THAT WHAT MYKO IS SAYING IS TRUE?

Jesus. Also, why aren't we completing the mass claim (or at least a partial mass claim)?

I'm not hammering and Tenchi shouldn't self-hammer. That's just dumb play even IF the game looks like it's in the bag.

[Incognito]

Townie. Go on.

[Incognito]

I'm not scum, Hoopla. Thanks for playing though.

I just take issue with the way this is being done. It seems lazy to me, idk. I wouldn't want to end up losing what looks to be a nearly perfect game by overlooking something.

[Incognito]

Doubted. The other two Lights Out games had something like 20 players and each one had 4-person scum teams. 15 players here probably means a 4-person scum team.

[Incognito]

I am a power role. Not a doctor though.

Claim it.

[Incognito]

Incognito is town.

Out of curiosity, Tenchi, if you're still reading, why did you say this right when you reached L-1?

[Incognito]

Tenchi needs to get in here and claim ASAP. His last two posts are making me think he's either scum or a PR. I can't see any other reason why he'd call me town when he's reached L-1 otherwise. I don't get why he didn't even claim.

Hoopla, why didn't you guard anyone on either Night?

[Incognito]

Well, after the Empking killing and Slicey lynching, I'd think you the claimed Vig would probably be a pretty decent person to protect.

[Incognito]

Tenchi needs to get in here and claim ASAP. His last two posts are making me think he's either scum or a PR. I can't see any other reason why he'd call me town when he's reached L-1 otherwise. I don't get why he didn't even claim.

Hoopla, why didn't you guard anyone on either Night?

can't we lynch incog first?

I've pretty much had you on ignore mode for awhile now but amuse me. What exactly is scummy about what I said there?

[Incognito]

Admittedly, this hasn't been one of my best games. But I don't think I've played awful here either. I think I'm just bad with Large Games in general which is why I usually avoid them like the plague. I just have a hard time focusing on so many people at once. Maybe that's why we haven't been working well together here, idk.

As for my question, I just was curious as to what her response would be. I could see why Hoopla might be hesitant to Guard someone like q21 on Night 1 but on Night 2 after everything else that happened in-thread and it really really really began to look like q21 stood an even stronger chance of being town as opposed to SK? Not so much. I don't think she's scum for it, but I just wanted to get a feel for her thought process anyway. Maybe it really WILL have no bearing on this game but hey, maybe her answer could potentially help me in future games that I'm in with Hoopla.

And it might not matter to you if Tenchi claims a PR but it matters to me. I like winning games with as few town casualties as possible. And I hate hate hate being mislynched. Put those two together and maybe you'll better see where I'm coming from. I like having all information on the table particularly in situations like this so that we could win the game with the greatest number that we possibly can instead of a bunch of useless deaths.

[Incognito]

Really bad theory.

[Incognito]

Hoopla, your theory only works under the assumption that scum had perfect information on N1, i.e. they knew with 100% certainty that q21 was a vig. Aside from that, even if scum DID have that information, it would be really bad play for scum to completely forgo a kill just in an effort to "frame" q21 as this shady SK character who could possibly be "mislynched" the next Day. Scum would be much more likely to just keep on killing (maybe even taking a stab at killing q21 himself!) and then worrying about a possible q21 threat at a later time.

Given the types of claims we've seen, I think we basically have the following potential things happening to the N1 kill:

1)

Scum forgot to submit a kill. (This I doubt but I think it's probably about as likely as the scenario 2 that I'll mention below). I know Patrick usually accepts NK choices via the QuickTopic, so even if the scum weren't able to PM him in time I'm pretty sure they would've had SOME kind of a choice in - vollkan-scum was fairly active here even though Empking and Slicey looked spotty.)

2)

Doctor or Jailkeeper protection. (This is pretty much why I want Tenchi to claim. With him consistently saying I'm town especially when he reached L-1 just now, I got the feeling that he might have been breadcrumbing that he protected me N1 or something along those lines. Not smart play for him to continue breadcrumbing since it would just make more sense to claim but still possible.)

3)

q21 is an SK with NK immunity. (This one I doubt the most given the reasons I've cited previously.)

[Incognito]

Why would you not just full claim when you reached L-1?

[Incognito]

Assuming Tenchi's telling the truth about his role, my guess is the scum targeted me on Night 1 because they incorrectly thought I was soft-claiming a power role back when I said that "sniping a PR before deadline" comment on D1. If so, I'm pretty pleased with myself at this point since that was partly the purpose of that comment.

I'll have more to say about recent stuff after I get back from a jog.

[Incognito]

I'm so confused right now. mykonian, can you explain your role a bit more? Now you're worried that tajo might actually be scum? Do you think he might have some kind of immunity to your role?

-~-~-~-~

The only valid reason I could see for people to want to lynch Tenchi at this point is if you think me and him are scum together who are doing some kind of an elaborate gambit (realistically, this doesn't make much sense). I'm really struggling to see any other way for how no additional kill happened on Night 1, which makes me think his claim might be truthful. I also still don't think Kmd is scum either. By the looks of things, it seems like the scum only had a single PR in that Daystopper - I don't think it would make sense for a Kmd-scum to continuously pursue his sole hypothetical power role buddy like that.

Hoopla's claimed role is sticking out like a sore thumb to me if all of the other ones are to be believed, but her play Today (namely the recent thing about leaving tajo and I alive to endgame) seems extraordinarily town.

CKD continues to drop vanilla tells (he seemed to even forget about the way this whole mechanic even worked).

tajo and q21 I

thought

were confirmed by mykonian, so if we were to lynch anyone from that group, I'd probably prefer mykonian on the off-chance that he's some kind of a scum rolecop trying to ride out to endgame.

Ojanen, for the most part, has also seemed town. I should probably do a quick reread of her though.

[Incognito]

No really. Explain your role a bit more if you can. I don't get why you're paranoid about tajo now. Do you think he's just being dense or do you think he actually might be scum?

[Incognito]

Ok that's better.

If Tenchi really is the final scum and really DID just claim Doc to save himself, then my guess for the N1 shenanigans is that the scum just didn't get to submit the NK. I know Patrick is usually pretty strict with Night submission deadlines, and I've definitely seen him mod at least one game where the scum forgot to submit an NK and the Day began with no kill. With a hypothetical scum team of Empking, Tenchi, Slicey, and vollkan, I could maybe see that happening. vollkan seems like the only normally active one within that group and now that I've looked back on it, even

he

was fairly inactive during Day 1 also.

Looking at it from that way, I guess lynching Tenchi really is the way to go. If the game doesn't end upon his lynch, then from all of your perspective I should at least be confirmed town.

[Incognito]

What ckd said. I won't be laying a vote down until that's done.

[Incognito]

Ok that's better.

If Tenchi really is the final scum and really DID just claim Doc to save himself, then my guess for the N1 shenanigans is that the scum just didn't get to submit the NK. I know Patrick is usually pretty strict with Night submission deadlines, and I've definitely seen him mod at least one game where the scum forgot to submit an NK and the Day began with no kill. With a hypothetical scum team of Empking, Tenchi, Slicey, and vollkan, I could maybe see that happening. vollkan seems like the only normally active one within that group and now that I've looked back on it, even

he

was fairly inactive during Day 1 also.

Looking at it from that way, I guess lynching Tenchi really is the way to go.

If the game doesn't end upon his lynch, then from all of your perspective I should at least be confirmed town.

like, wth?

Egads. I hope that's not

another

scum-tell.

Eh, whatever. Ojanen's right. Let's go with this:

vote: Tenchi

[Incognito]

Incognito you have the worst scumdar ever, lol.

I incorrectly assumed that one of the people on my wagon was likely scum. The only people I ever strongly pushed against in this entire game were SpyreX and you and yeah, I was wrong about both of you but it happens. I even said before you got lynched that I was having a bad feeling about it and with SpyreX, I never saw why people thought he was obvtown. He looked pretty passive to me especially early on.

Aside from that I correctly called a whole slew of people town - the scum ended up being the people I didn't or couldn't comment on because for the most part the scum didn't

do

anything. So I don't see where your comment even comes from. It's not like you correctly called out the scum during your time here either.

Also, self-hammering as town on Day 1 in an invitational? Just wow.

-~-~-~-~

Good game all. Glad it's over. Well done on the vigging, q21.