Mini 1056 - NFL Mafia (Game Over)

[Mariyta]

/confirm

[Mariyta]

VOTE: Razgris for being second twice. Very scummy.

[Mariyta]

Panthers lose.

Oh well; at least I caught scum.

VOTE: Mariyta

This vote wasn't random, by the way.

Care to explain your reasoning, then?

[Mariyta]

I like my vote. I have been avidly anti-Steelers since, well, forever.

[Mariyta]

VOTE: Razgris for being second twice. Very scummy.

Look at everyone else's (minus GW's) vote, then look at this one. First off, this one is only one line (doesn't draw attention). Also, everyone else gives a completely non-game related reason for their "random" vote while you actually call Razgriz "scummy," making it seem like there's some kind of element of scumhunting in the vote when in reality there's not.

That's seriously your reasoning? An RVS vote with a joke attached because it looks like it's not a random vote?

@Razgriz: Stop putting yourself second and people will stop thinking you faked the list.

[Mariyta]

I really hate the "I was just testing you" argument. Yes, the whole point of RVS is to test people and evaluate their reactions, but Antihero's response seems more like a "Crap, no one jumped on the bandwagon. Time to move on." And kdub's post was valid, not scummy. There is no reason for us to believe at this point that Raj is definite town (aside from the fact that he's Raj and Raj is always town, even when he's anti-town. *Antihero, this is a joke, fyi.*)

I agree with the vote on Mongoose, as well. Despite Raj calling it policy, that is really the whole point of the game (for townies, anyway). Mongoose adds nothing to the discuss while trying to seem helpful. Same for Razgriz, so my vote stands and becomes a serious vote.

[Mariyta]

I really hate the "I was just testing you" argument.

So, I guess you just prefer an RVS which spirals into a crappy theory debate about policy lynches...
Also, I was hoping others besides you would comment on it (I wasn't expecting bandwagoning votes; that actually would have sent up some red flags for me).

Yes, the whole point of RVS is to test people and evaluate their reactions, but Antihero's response seems more like a "Crap, no one jumped on the bandwagon. Time to move on."

If you look at my meta, you'll see this isn't the case (inhim has seen it before). And also, I think you could figure that this isn't the case from the ridiculously contrived reasoning.

I didn't say it wasn't a valid scumhunting method. I just don't like it. Especially when you give in so easily. My apologies for not keeping quiet til scum jumped on. Next time I'll give the fish time to bite.

I don't like meta play. People are constantly learning/evolving and I don't feel that looking at past games is as helpful for me as it may be for others.

[Mariyta]

I'm so sorry, Jason. My thoughts are with you.


I'd like to hear what Razgriz has to say about the Mongoose wagon. I'm torn between the two at the moment. They both are posting w/o saying a whole lot.

[Mariyta]

Oh by the way I forgot to add this

GO COWBOYS!!!!

Cowboys?

Major FOS

[Mariyta]

I really like my vote.

[Mariyta]

Looking for a replacement for Razgriz....

NO MORE REPLACEMENTS. NEXT PERSON WHO QUITS GETS MODKILLED. I EXPLICITLY SAID NO REPLACEMENTS.

I mean seriously, not interested don't sign up next time.

QFT; jason is justified, Raz's isn't.

Now,
@Mariyta (can I shorten that to "mari"?): Why do you really like your vote?

You can absolutely shorten it to Mari. Most people do. But when you're reading it, please do not pronounce it "Mary." It's "Mah-Ree."

I like my vote because it doesn't seem like an "I'm really busy and signed up without thinking" replacement. It seems like a "Well, crap. I signed up, got scum, and I don't like playing scum. This game sucks." Others may not see it that way, but Raz had a couple votes on him and he obviously was interested when he signed up (or why would he sign up?). It seems like a pathetic excuse to me. And I don't agree with the excuse that it's a slow start. Most games start a bit slow. If you want immediate action, don't start games; replace into them halfway through, instead. I hope his replacement proves me wrong, but my vote stays for now.

[Mariyta]

I like Locke more than Razgriz already. UNVOTE:

Locke, yes, I do. Well, sort of. Obviously, there are more town, so more townies get replaced in general. But I think quite a few people lose a bit of interest when they get a scum role, especially if they're not super interested in the game to begin with. I'm speaking from experience (though I've never asked to be replaced). Scum is harder to play, and some people don't want to play that role at all.

I need to re-read before I place another vote.

[Mariyta]

locke: just to let you know inhim usually buddies up with me. prolly because he knows im a lose cannon and think he can read me well. i then know that if he doesnt support me then hes prolly scum. weve just played so long together its habit and if it doesnt happen then one of us is scum. if it does happen then we both are town, or both scum, or one is scum and we are following our normal game play not to look suspicious.

Are you suggesting we lynch you both to make sure one of you isn't scum?

[Mariyta]

Coach Travis is town

horrordude, what was this about?

[Mariyta]

I like my vote because it doesn't seem like an "I'm really busy and signed up without thinking" replacement. It seems like a "Well, crap. I signed up, got scum, and I don't like playing scum. This game sucks." Others may not see it that way, but Raz had a couple votes on him and he obviously was interested when he signed up (or why would he sign up?). It seems like a pathetic excuse to me. And I don't agree with the excuse that it's a slow start. Most games start a bit slow. If you want immediate action, don't start games; replace into them halfway through, instead. I hope his replacement proves me wrong, but my vote stays for now.

thats a really interesting take, though you could say the same thing about being a VT, in a game with so many interesting roles. Or he may not want the pressure or being QB. So I don't think it really is a scum tell.

It's not necessarily a scumtell, but I felt it was enough this early in the game. Locke has been very active since replacing in, so as GhostWriter suggested, I'm letting it go.

also, mari, Horrordude voted for Coach travis.

Yes, hence the question. Please let him speak for himself, unless, of course, you're afraid your scum buddy will give himself away if he does.

That actually isn't unusual for me. See, I feel if I can find players I believe to be town, that will help narrow down the list of potential scum players, so I still think it's beneficial to the town. Obviously scum don't need to do such a thing, because they know who's scum and who's town, so they wouldn't need to worry about figuring out any alignment at all, where I like to figure out the alignment of everyone and point out whenever I have any type of read whatsoever. This has just been a game where so far I haven't seen a lot of things I'd call scummy.

The problem is, if you say that 3 people are town, and you cant find any scum, that doesnt help. Any scum can do the same, and why shouldn't they. Its not like the townies you are pointing out were going to be lynched any time soon anyways.

Coach Travis has been slightly more useful than some others in this game. I understand and respect the fact that you won't always have immediate scum reads on people. Sometimes it's easier to figure out who you think is definitely town and go from there. Right now, I don't see anyone as inherently scummy. I see some people who I think are possibly town, some who are slightly fishy, and some who appear to be utterly useless (also fishy), which is why I have not revoted. I'm deciding between slightly fishy and utterly useless.

[Mariyta]

I've decided to VOTE: jimfinn. Like mongoose, he's posting, but not really posting anything useful.

[Mariyta]

So he's like Mongoose, but he's not Mongoose, making you fine with voting him?

I understand seeing him as scummy. As my previous post mentioned, I don't like the discussion he so willingly just threw himself into. However, that vote essentially says what my first line in this post says.

They're both doing the same thing. Everyone is focusing on mongoose and ignoring jim. Jim needs a little pressure, too. Does it upset you that he is no longer flying under the radar?

[Mariyta]

So he's like Mongoose, but he's not Mongoose, making you fine with voting him?

I understand seeing him as scummy. As my previous post mentioned, I don't like the discussion he so willingly just threw himself into. However, that vote essentially says what my first line in this post says.

They're both doing the same thing. Everyone is focusing on mongoose and ignoring jim. Jim needs a little pressure, too. Does it upset you that he is no longer flying under the radar?

Oh, that's fun, let's point fingers at people and imply them as scum. I could do that, and say something along the lines of "does it upset you that Mongoose is getting such a huge bandwagon". But that's rather pointless, isn't it? I think so. Why would I dislike the fact that someone has been called out? Like I thought I implied before, I understand seeing him as scummy, and don't mind that you've pointed him out. But that doesn't change the way that post came across. And I stated how that post came across. Aggressive much?

First, that's exactly how your post came off. It sounded like you were accusing me of not voting mongoose when I voted jim. I explained why I voted jim instead. Second, I wasn't being aggressive, though apparently you read it that way. Maybe I should've stuck a smiley face at the end or something. Your reaction is quite aggressive, though.

I like Antihero's question to kdub and would like Coach Travis to answer the same, please.

[Mariyta]

mari, I've had a fairly solid townread on you for the past few pages (I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt on your persuit of a few red herrings), but the OMGUS and subsequent backtracking doesn't look good.

I didn't backtrack anywhere.

[Mariyta]

But I wasn't being aggressive. Seems we aren't very good readers of posts that the other makes.

That's why I try to use smilies to indicate mood. Text is very easy to misread.

My problem with your original post wasn't that you pointed out Jim. It was that you point out Jim for reasons similar to Mongoose, who has a wagon and could surely use another vote, and then didn't supply that vote to the Mongoose wagon. I don't feel like Mongoose is taking the votes serious and might need to feel more pressure.

Then again, I don't actually know the vote count.

Fair enough. I'm not sure of the vote count either, and I felt my vote would be more useful in pressuring someone else (in addition to mongoose, not instead of him).

What would a smiley have done? You obviously accused him of being jim's scumbuddy in that post.

Now going back and trying to say that you didn't = backtracking

It was a joke accusation, because I felt he was accusing me of the same with mongoose. The smiley would've made it lighthearted, as it was meant to be.

Anyway, back to scum hunting. Waiting on responses from kdub and Coach, as well as useful input from mongoose and jim.

[Mariyta]

To those who have not played with me before: I don't post all that much in the early stages of games in general, unless I see something that gives me a strong read. I tend to wait until my reads are stronger, so that I don't backtrack or lead others the wrong direction. Especially when I have a PR with some form of investigation, I am relatively inactive on D1 in order to allow my power to help me develop at least one of my reads.

This is not an acceptable excuse, IMO. I don't even know what to say to rest of it. I mean, why on earth would you say that? As GW has already stated, it's unlikely that you actually possess that role, or you would've kept it a secret as long as possible. If you do, well, bah.

[Mariyta]

The thing is, I have posted one scum read, so you can't say I've made zero effort in catching scum, or putting pressure on anyone. So far I just haven't noticed that much suspicious behavior, as a lot of the activity so far has been around null things or jokes, so it's been easier to spot the players trying to help contribute content than those doing anything particularly scummy. And I post reads whenever I get them, so in a game like this, it's obvious I'll be posting more town reads because I'm having a hard time finding scum

You realize you could say the exact same thing for me. If you are doing this, why are you voting me for doing the same?

I disagree with this. Coach Travis has been more active and helpful than you, even with the lack of scum reads.

I need a nap, and then I'm going to figure out the vote count, as I have no idea where anyone stands.

[Mariyta]

Mari, helpfulness has nothing to do with if you are scum or not. No one ever seems to call me helpful, and I always seem to get lynched (see SSBB, hide and seek, bondoox). I am not that good at making reads, and I make short posts. that has gotten me lynched in 2/3 games Ive played here, the third where I was almost lynched but saved because of a mass role claim. Maybe because I get lynched off these pointless "scum tells" is the reason I am so hesitant to point my finger at someone and say that they are scum, because 90% of the time they can say the same thing back. When I do accuse someone, I get a response saying I do the same thing. Just like here. And now if I accuse anyone else, guess what happens.

Your first sentence is totally not true. Scum intentionally try to be unhelpful while seeming the exactly opposite. Scum tells exist for the purpose of finding scum. If they didn't work, they wouldn't be employed so often. True, they're not 100% accurate and townies are often lynched due to a misread tell, but without them, I don't think mafia would be very playable in general. If you find that your play is getting you lynched more often than not early on in the game, take a look at your past games and figure out where things went wrong. Look at some of the more respected players and their games. It's a learning experience. We all go through it.

Thanks for the VC, mod!!

[Mariyta]

Yes, he did

say

it was due to lack of interest. As I said before, Locke's play has been satisfactory, so I removed my vote and we've moved on.

I said that in RVS because Coach Travis said that he liked the raiders. After all, no raiders fan could be scum, right?

That's what I thought, but wanted to be clear. Also, did you finish reading the thread before voting GhostWriter? We cleared that entire mess up already.

[Mariyta]

I do not actually think you have an investigative role. However, that post was very well written, up until that point. In the future, just leave that part out.

This is not an acceptable excuse, IMO. I don't even know what to say to rest of it. I mean, why on earth would you say that? As GW has already stated, it's unlikely that you actually possess that role, or you would've kept it a secret as long as possible. If you do, well, bah.

These two posts caught my attention a bit. Based on the possible roles in the setup, there is only one possible investigative role, and that role can't use it on N1 because it requires 14 points, which isn't possible on the first day. It should have been immediately clear that jim was not breadcrumbing a N1 investigation, and I am a bit suspicious that attention was being drawn to it possibly in an attempt to get him to say more about his role.

I don't think I ever said I thought he made a N1 investigation. It's still bad play on his part, whether he has that role or not. Taking that in addition to his lack of posting, he's one of the less likely town players I've seen so far.

[Mariyta]

People, now is a good time to drop the jim thing.

town: GW, inhim, freak, mari
scum: mongoose, kdub, horrordude

Proceed accordingly.

I agree, for now, though I want jim to be more active.

UNVOTE:

With that said, there are a couple others I don't like.

• Mongoose: for obvious and already stated reasons
  
• horrordude: His votes have been weak (Coach Travis first, then GhostWriter). The vote on GW is extremely weak and horror seems to only be paying half attention to the game.
  
• kdub: Locke stated the reason for this well enough. When I read kdub's post initially, I'd forgotten there wasn't an N1. Kdub is trying to keep a dead (or maybe sleeping) discussion going.

I'll VOTE: kdub for bandwagonning's sake, but

IGMEOY horror

.

On previewing, I realized that my list is the same as Antihero's. I assure you that this was unintentional. I hadn't really read Anti's list (I take all list's with a grain of salt) and I've been looking at horror suspiciously all game.

[Mariyta]

mari, mari, mari... i get you to join the game and you ignore me all game? on your play-style its going in the right direction, i just find it uneasy when someone ignores me. actually i think thats why i like the GG/BG lists by antihero, everyone on that list is going the same direction as me. and with some pretty strong town reads on everyone in the list i dont think its some conspiracy.

Aww, I'm sorry. I didn't intentionally ignore you. You just haven't done anything of honorable mention, in my opinion. Well, aside from the whole discussion about you and inhim, which I found to be stupid, as I know you better than that. I don't think you're scum, if that makes you feel better.

[Mariyta]

I really don't get the case on Kdub at all. In fact, I don't see anything wrong from either side of that situation, as GW has given me a town vibe from the start of the game, and still is seeming town, and while I'm not quite as convinced about mari he doesn't seem as scummy as some players, and right now I think he's town. But what Kdub said was also fine, as he was just pointing something out, and to me the whole thing seemed like a misunderstanding, so I don't get the two votes on him. I'm completely convinced he's innocent, but he isn't seeming overly scummy right now, he's made some good posts.

I do agree about horrordude looking scummy, his vote on GW definitely needs to be further explained, because right now I don't get it at all, and he really hasn't done anything major aside from that. Also don't like how Shotty made one decent post, and then a whole bunch of joke posts, before completely disappearing. So right now those two and mongoose look the scummiest, IMO.

My main reason for voting kdub is that is seems like he's trying to keep the misunderstanding going. This distracts from finding true scum. Did you mean that you're NOT completely convinced he's innocent?

Good point about shotty. Shotty, where are you?

[Mariyta]

I've been debating whether to switch my vote to mongoose all day, and I've decided to just do it. That's puts him at 5. Takes 7 to lynch. I still don't like kdub or horror, and shotty is borderline, especially after the last post. In fact, I'm slightly less suspicious of kdub after shotty's quick vote and eager attack (while ignoring all the other potential scum candidates).

UNVOTE: kdub,VOTE: mongoose

[Mariyta]

unvote. vote: shotty

those posts were scummy beyond belief.

Raj, how will a claim help?

Could it be that we've found two scum this early in the game? Shotty is being the nice scum and votes for someone else, while mongoose is clearly fine with bussing his partner. Now who do we want to lynch first? Tough decision. I'll be gone all day, but when I get home, I'll decide.

[Mariyta]

Eff it. UNVOTE: mongoose, VOTE: Shotty

[Mariyta]

oh shit i forgot the role pm's were their. Well god mass claim kills this game. Ya I'm scum... shit

Gotta love honesty.

horrordude0215 - has been bugging me for some reason. i cant lay my finger on it right now.

It's probably because he's scum.

[Mariyta]

VOTE: mongoose
For all the reasons listed yesterday and because GW was on his wagon.

[Mariyta]

VOTE: Coach Travis

FoS: Mari

For what?

[Mariyta]

Guess

Voting mongoose?

[Mariyta]

Nope

Let's start with the crappy NK meta:

1) There were a bunch of people on the mongoose wagon yesterday.
2) If you want to analyse this kill, go back and read GW's exchange with you around post 140.

My top two suspects are still mongoose and Travis, but if mongoose somehow flips town, I'm willing to bet Mari is scum.

1. Yes, I know there were a bunch of people. I was one of them. But GW was still on mongoose at the end of the day. As was Coach Travis. Do you think CT was busing?
2. The exchange between me and GW was a misunderstanding, nothing more.

What else did I do that you don't like?

I still don't like jim or horror. And I'd like Raj to expound on the GW-Antihero connection he noticed.

[Mariyta]

My gut doesn't like your play for some reason; I have confidence that my brain will figure it out soon.

I still haven't fully grasped it yet, but you seem to chase after a lot of red herrings. But your shotty vote yesterday, doesn't fit with what would seem like optimal scumplay... ... and neither does mongoose's (considering shotty was a pretty powerful scum PR). inhim's might, though...

I'm sorry I don't live up to your mafia-playing standards. I really don't think I'm as awful as you seem to think I am.

I still don't like jim or horror.

Meh, both of them are probtown (jim because of the thing with shotty and horror because of the crappy piggybacking from scumshotty).

After my re-read earlier, I semi-agree on horror, but I still don't like jim. And doing an ISO on Coach Travis, I don't really like him either. Especially after his last post. As Antihero pointed out, it was probably an attempt at distancing himself from the sinking ship that was shotty.

[Mariyta]

I know this looks bad for me, but the thing is, I remained rather consistent about Shotty the whole time, there was never this switch Antihero mentioned. My only bad post about was the one where I sorta defended him, but even there I admitted I didn't like him, and he was always one of my suspects. The post afterward wasn't the switch Antihero makes it out to be, because if you look through my posts you'll see the first time I mentioned Shotty he was my third suspect, so I always had a bad vibe from him, I just couldn't tell if he was scummy or just playing awful like usual. So basically, there never was this weird switch, I simply made a mistake because I hate policy lynches(which I felt Shotty was because I didn't nothing anything particularly scummy, and was more annoyed with his playstyle), which also stays true to something I said before the whole Shotty thing even started. I admit I was wrong about him, but I'm not his scum partner.

I still don't like Mongoose, for reasons I mentioned day one, and he probably was just sacrificing his partner once he knew it was unavoidable.

Vote:mongoose

I'm a TE, so for now I'd rather us lynch mongoose, figure out his role, and then let me investigate someone, since we have enough points now.

I'm at a loss for words... Why? Just why??

[Mariyta]

UNVOTE: Coach Travis

Actually, the claim doesn't make much sense for scum-CT.

I'm really doubting there's more that one TE or LB (too many people using points for that to work; CT, if you really are the TE, use your investigation tonight).

From a scum point of view, Mari's vote for shotty is suboptimal. I'm ruling her out for now. Interactions with shotty decrease the chances of finding scum among jim, kdub, horrordude, and freak. That leaves inhim and mongoose.

VOTE: inHimshallibe

Speaking of inHim, where'd he go? He's disappeared in both the games I'm in with him.

CT, Raj gives you some good advice. If you have a PR, it's in your best interest to hold out claiming until you have to. First, you reveal yourself to scum and make yourself a likely NK. Second, you send your fellow townies into fits. Not nice.

[Mariyta]

Mongoose is so scummy, it hurts.

[Mariyta]

^
Explain please? How does that implicate mongoose?

Shotty wanted the hammer on mongoose (AKA: his scum buddy).

[Mariyta]

Read through Kdub ISO and I don't find him as scummy as some of you do. I can see possible distancing from shotty and mongoose, but I think part of that might be reading into things based on what we now know.

Also read through horror, and I still don't like horror, especially due to the below post.

Drshotty replaces in... I'm going to keep my judgment to myself on this one lol

Strike that... Shotty's intro post is actually pretty good! Yay for not being PL bait!

...
Shotty asks for a modkill... eek.

FoS

at least.

Seems a lot like horror is trying to acknowledge shotty's entrance w/o linking himself definitively. He also said he'd post Tuesday, and it's now Wednesday evening. Tsk tsk.

[Mariyta]

If CT is telling the truth, I am fine with being investigated tonight if I am wrong about mongoose.

Since we are not lynching CT today, I'll switch to my second suspect.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: inHim

Why are you voting inHim? The only reason I see is because he declared Raj town. That seems pretty weak at this point in the game.

[Mariyta]

kdub is voting inhim because he doesnt want to vote out his scum buddy mongoose.

also, inhim is the only person people have any doubts about right now.

1+1=2

come on make it harder for us.

Shhh..... don't give him all the answers!!

[Mariyta]

also, inhim is the only person people have any doubts about right now.

This isn't entirely true. I don't like how Locke hasn't come under much scrutiny.

I was actually just thinking about that maybe 5 minutes ago when I was reading a thread on lurkers... Locke came in, made an impression, then poofed.

@kdub: I know you mentioned that he was a suspect. I was pointing out that the case you made on him at the time was extremely weak and you haven't added anything to it. Despite the fact that he hasn't contributed as much as some others, he's still been more useful than several others in this game.

[Mariyta]

Mod: I'm moving house this week so I won't have much time. V/LA until Friday.

I guess this would be why. But it's Friday, so I definitely want some action by the end of the weekend.

[Mariyta]

Yeah, mongoose's case on Kdub is very weak and seems forced. Either he's scum or very bad townie, I still think the first possibility is more likely.

Mongoose is almost definitely scum. This has already been established. The question is who is his remaining buddy? My guess is that the third scumster lies within horror, Locke, and kdub.

Preview edit: I just read this and I'm leaning toward the latter now.

This talk of me+mongoose as scum is understandable, but I've been up front with my doubts about mongoose as scum.

I hope I'm wrong and that if we lynch him, he actually is scum.

If CT is telling the truth, hopefully he can clear me tonight in that case. I still would prefer an inHim lynch today though.

Fence-sitting at its finest right there.

[Mariyta]

Fence-sitting at its finest right there.

Do you even know what fence-sitting is? Because the part you quoted definitely isn't it.

Fence-sitting isn't the best word, but it's pretty close.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Yes, thank you. I knew what I was trying to say, I just didn't express it properly.

[Mariyta]

Why does mongoose decide to disappear when he's being asked to claim?

[Mariyta]

well you both checked in and we are kinda waiting on a claim....

I get the feeling that we're not getting a claim. Maybe he'd prefer to be modkilled instead of lynched.

[Mariyta]

From his sig:

I will be v/la starting thursday, and ending on the following sunday for Dasara holidays (from the 7th til the 16th). i may be able to post when I am at my cousin's houses, but during some periods I may not have internet access.

Guess we can't be too mad yet.

[Mariyta]

sorry guys, I was up in the mountains, where even the mobile internet thing doesn't get connection.

I probably got the scummiest role (easiest to fake I mean

, which doesn't help my cause), in offensive tackle.

Meh. I don't think I believe this. The bolded part really bothers me.

[Mariyta]

I think it's hammer time. I like horror for a lynch tomorrow.

[Mariyta]

I'm down for an inHim lynch today. Mari and raj seem like possible buddies.

VOTE: inHim

Now this is funny.

Based on memory, I'm leaning toward horror, kdub, or Locke (especially based on Razgriz's play). Will re-read when I get home tonight before placing a vote.

[Mariyta]

Mari: how come you're falling back to suspecting me based on Razgriz's play now?

Did you miss the "based on memory" part? Raz was my main suspect before he left and I don't remember much of what you did.

I will go now and see if I agree with Antihero's assessment. Need to get this done before HIMYM!

[Mariyta]

Ok, re-read was by ISO. Sorry for the wall.

horror

-Raiders fan (um, ew?)

Drshotty replaces in... I'm going to keep my judgment to myself on this one lol

Strike that... Shotty's intro post is actually pretty good! Yay for not being PL bait!

-I don't like this at all. It comes off as creating just enough of a connection to not be seen as avoiding while still keeping as distant as possible. Then FOSes shotty in the same post for suggesting a modkill. Then he comes in to vote GW on a dead-and-gone misunderstanding, and promptly disappears, making minor posts here and there to say he's still alive. Has not posted anything but v/la crap since Sept 26th.
-Shotty says horror is his third choice, but doesn't give reasons (wreaks of scum setting up a potential bus w/o committing to anything)

inHim

Seems like typical inHim to me. I don't get scum from him at all.

jimfinn

-Meta claim about lack of play D1 is lame (as Raj pointed out)
-"I tend to wait until my reads are stronger, so that I don't backtrack or lead others the wrong direction." Town doesn't have definitive information on alignment, so it's natural to change opinions throughout the game. I don't see the need to hold back information/opinions for fear of backtracking. Worried about drawing unwanted attention, maybe?
-I still don't get why he would say "Especially when I have a PR with some form of investigation, I am relatively inactive on D1 in order to allow my power to help me develop at least one of my reads." if he didn't have a PR or wasn't trying to set up a future fake-claim, especially now that we know he didn't have the investigative role (or can assume that, anyway, for as someone pointed out, that would be a LOT of points to use in one night).
-Voted shotty based on modkill comment (which I don't really read as a big deal), but he did leave his vote there all day, which is a huge point in his favor.
-"Yeah I think we should lynch mongoose today and have CT investigate Kdub tonight. I'm not moving my vote until I feel stronger support for this, but that's my lean right now." I know this is a major stretch, but bear with me. It would be in scum's interest to say "Good idea. Investigate this other guy who I know is town but is drawing a lot of suspicion," then kill off investigator before town read can be revealed. Like I said, major reach, but figured I'd throw it out there.
-Placed hammer on mongoose, but that's not a big deal.

kdub

ISO didn't reveal anything blatantly scummy. Not sure why I keep thinking he's scum. I'm not going to trust my gut at this point.

Razgriz/Locke

-Raz made no attempt to participate at all, then replaced when suspicion was placed upon him (yes, I know, he was bored. Whatever. I still find it extremely suspicious that he didn't want to play

after

he came under scrutiny.)
-Locke voted kdub, then voted shotty for voting kdub...
-Summary: Raz seemed like scum, Locke just seems meh. Has posted, but nothing really stands out. I'll table this for now.

Raj

Raj, have your feelings about kdub changed?

With all that said, VOTE: horror. jim comes in second on my list, w/ Locke a distant third.

Edit note: I realized the only one I didn't add anything about is Antihero. That's because he seems pretty town to me and unlike inHim, he hasn't come under any notable suspicion.

[Mariyta]

Can someone explain to me why being early on the lynch of a scum is scummy?

I said it was a huge point in your favor, not that it was scummy.

[Mariyta]

Why is jim the second person on Mari's list? He's the most townish person alive to me right now.

I disagree. The more I think about it, though, I might move him to third and bump Locke to second. I also have this nagging feeling that there is scum sitting in the group of folks I feel to be definitely town, but that could just be unwarranted paranoia.

[Mariyta]

What's your opinion of my Shotty vote, Mari?

It didn't strike me as odd, but that doesn't really mean anything. Shotty was so blatantly scummy, that anyone could pull a good case against him. Why?

[Mariyta]

Oh, horror, come out, come out wherever you are.

[Mariyta]

What's your opinion of my Shotty vote, Mari?

It didn't strike me as odd, but that doesn't really mean anything.

Shotty was so blatantly scummy, that anyone could pull a good case against him.

Why?

That answers your question.

@Antihero: And again, I disagree. However, jimfinn is not the play for today, so arguing about it at this point would only be a distraction and harmful to the town. We can hash it out tomorrow if necessary.

The only one I'm willing to call for sure town at this point is Antihero. I really don't think inHim is scum, but he's been kinda absent, so I'm not going to commit to that. Raj is giving me not-so-fuzzy feelings at the moment. I've realized that if inHim or Raj are scum, I probably wouldn't be able to tell, as I'm slightly biased in their favor. Horror is definitely the lynch for today, though. I've no doubt about that. Beyond that, I'd go for Locke or kdub.

[Mariyta]

Back back back. Comcast was stupid. Catching up.

Cox is worse. What are your opinions on the three current wagons? How about Locke and kdub?

[Mariyta]

What's your opinion of my Shotty vote, Mari?

It didn't strike me as odd, but that doesn't really mean anything.

Shotty was so blatantly scummy, that anyone could pull a good case against him.

Why?

That answers your question.

I don't think it does. I mean in the context of the wagons at the time, not the context of Shotty being scummy all the time. Essentially, I'm asking you why Locke-scum would bus Shotty-scum at that point. What's the scum motivation?

I'm not ignoring you. I'll answer this tomorrow. I want to go back and read through it so I give you a solid answer and not some off-the-cuff bullshit. Because honestly, I never considered that. I have a horrible tendency to ignore votes when doing a read-through (I know, I suck). In the meantime, where the hell is everyone else? It's not the weekend yet, ya lazy bums.

[Mariyta]

Waiting eagerly for your ISOs. As of right now, I'm 98% sure you're scum.

[Mariyta]

Back back back. Comcast was stupid. Catching up.

Eagerly waiting for this...

/seconded

[Mariyta]

What's your opinion of my Shotty vote, Mari?

It didn't strike me as odd, but that doesn't really mean anything.

Shotty was so blatantly scummy, that anyone could pull a good case against him.

Why?

That answers your question.

I don't think it does. I mean in the context of the wagons at the time, not the context of Shotty being scummy all the time. Essentially, I'm asking you why Locke-scum would bus Shotty-scum at that point. What's the scum motivation?

Ya know, you had me thinking you'd voted shotty before his 3 insanely scummy posts that pretty much convinced

everyone

that he was scum. But you did it right after.

Not

jumping on his wagon at that point would seem more suspicious than jumping on it. You actually jumped on at the ideal point, just after he stepped in it but before he was pushed for a claim. *makes another note on her "Reasons Locke is potentially scum" list*

I'm gonna go figure out the VC while I have a free moment.

[Mariyta]

horror is L-1, if he didn't notice. CLAIM TIME!

[Mariyta]

Alright first thing's first. I'm a wide receiver. Not gonna put any blame on the wagon for anyone but myself and the fact that my play has been really scummy. I get that.

Yes, yes it has. And that's a very safe claim to make. No night actions to account for, but still important due to the 100-yd gain. I'll need to think on this one. I doubt there are two WR, as a 200-yd gain at night would be useless.

P-edit: I miscounted. Are you pissed that you claimed and were only L-2? You could have counted them yourself, you know.

[Mariyta]

Where's Raj? He hasn't posted since Tuesday.

And since this is NFL mafia, how the hell did the Bills lose that??

[Mariyta]

inhim, why are you just debating the FoS point? What, besides that, makes horrordude scum?

Everyone, please feel free to answer this.

Panthers win. =D

I think I've given all my points on why I think horror is scum. I think the FOS comes across as distancing. Distancing, in my definition, is trying to put yourself at odds with your scum partner (as opposed to buddying). It does not mean ignoring them altogether. I think that's where horror's confusion on his first point came in.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a Bills fan. After more than a decade of torture, I switched to the Giants about 5 years ago. Only Browns fans are masochistic enough to stay with their team through centuries of pain.

[Mariyta]

In fact, my ISO#55 has my horror points (before his most recent scumalicious posting), right at the very beginning.

[Mariyta]

I don't think it's a good idea for the QB to claim. If he claims, he's a guaranteed target tonight and we have to hope the fullback is paying attention. If (and only if) raj's theory is correct, I think I know who it is. They should only come forward if they feel it crucial for the town.

In the meantime, we have 6 days to deadline , so plenty of time to figure this out. I don't like Raj's recent posts. Combine those with his statement at the beginning of the game that he and inHim are either both town or both scum, it gives me a sinking feeling. Clearly, neither of them are the QB, so we don't have to worry about that. So let's roll with it. UNVOTE: horror, VOTE: Raj

[Mariyta]

I don't think it's a good idea for the QB to claim. If he claims, he's a guaranteed target tonight and we have to hope the fullback is paying attention.

I hate to be the one to point this out, but if we had a FB who was paying attention, Coach Travis would still be here.

I know. Hence the reason I hope the QB chooses

not

to claim.

[Mariyta]

Not to mention, he completely ignored my vote.

[Mariyta]

Well, the two I thought could possibly have done it said they didn't, so UNVOTE: raj, VOTE: horror I think horror is L-1 now.

Raj, you complained that I was ignoring you, then when I gave you attention, you completely ignored me. I'm hurt.

Horror's vote is crap. It screams "Yay! A wagon I can jump on!" Even though my reasons for voting Raj were clearly lame (as Raj pointed out).

Locke and I have both checked in and inHim was voting horror (I think), so that means it didn't happen.

[Mariyta]

Gut reaction is to vote inHim based on Antihero's suspicions, but I need to re-read first. Three games to re-read today, so this one might get pushed to tomorrow.

[Mariyta]

@Raj: Why are you so sure now?

P-edit: inHim is now L-1. Raj, please make sure he claims.

[Mariyta]

Roles

Mafia/Defense

You are a Linebacker. You can intercept the ball at night if it is thrown to you. In addition, each night you may perform one of these actions if your team has enough points. Using an action will subtract the corresponding number of points from your team's score.

• 7 points - Target a player and prevent them from performing a night action. This will not stop this player from running or catching for yards if they can catch or run the ball.
  
• 14 points - Intercepts a pass (if one is thrown) this night.
  
• 21 points - Target an additional player this night to injure them. This injury cannot be prevented.

You win with the Defense when all players on the Offense have left the field. XXXXX and YYYYY are also on the Defense, you may talk HEREZZZZ during the night. Each night, one of you may injure a player instead of using another action. This won't prevent you from intercepting a pass.

You are a Defensive End. You have no special abilities and are unable to handle the ball.
You win with the Defense when all players on the Offense have left the field. XXXXX and YYYYY are also on the Defense, you may talk HEREZZZZ during the night. Each night, one of you may injure a player instead of using another action. This won't prevent you from intercepting a pass.

You are a Cornerback. You may intercept passes. Each night you may target a player. If the ball is thrown to that player, you will intercept it.
You win with the Defense when all players on the Offense have left the field. XXXXX and YYYYY are also on the Defense, you may talk HEREZZZZ during the night. Each night, one of you may injure a player instead of using another action. This won't prevent you from intercepting a pass.

You are a Defensive Tackle. Each night you may target a player. If you target the Quarterback and they hold on to the ball, you will force a fumble. You can not intercept the ball.
You win with the Defense when all players on the Offense have left the field. XXXXX and YYYYY are also on the Defense, you may talk HEREZZZZ during the night. Each night, one of you may injure a player instead of using another action. This won't prevent you from intercepting a pass.

We've already taken out the linebacker. My guess is the cornerback targeted Antihero and someone threw him the ball.

I'm trying to decide if that's a serious question posted by confused town, or scum trying to seem inquisitive and helpful... You don't strike me as so unobservant that you wouldn't check the posted roles at the beginning of the game.

[Mariyta]

Locke, what's your opinion on inHim pre-claim?

FYI, I'm leaning town on Locke, now.

[Mariyta]

like i said yesterday we are flirting with losing if we lynch wrong right now. i dont know how everyone would feel about a mass claim, i am always up for it but thats just how i play the end game of mafia. i know it would be ideal to do it tomorrow with a dead inhimscum but i would hate to regret it.

See, it's things like this that make me question your alignment. Though, if inHim really is scum, I doubt you'd be busing him.

Where is he, anyway? We need a claim from him before someone hammers.

[Mariyta]

If you didn't say scummy things, I wouldn't have to point them out. And do you really want me to follow you blindly without questioning anything you say?

That

would be scummy. I still say no to the mass claim. Why reveal our QB at this point when it's unnecessary? The longer we can protect them, the better.

[Mariyta]

I don't think there's much discussion to be had. A mass claim would out our only really important role at this point. As you already said, gaining points is useless, so it's a cop role right now. We should protect the QB at all costs.

[Mariyta]

Not the reaction I was expecting... Not sure what to think at this point. I was convinced LL was scum based on Razgriz's play, but his recent posts have seemed pretty town to me, despite raj's claim that they're scummy. My gut is telling me to not trust Raj, and I've never liked kdub (though I can't remember why).

inHim, when you say you will give no help as to the identity of the QB, do you mean you are consciously refusing to help, or that your claim would not help find them?

P-edit: Wait, I think I know what you're saying. I need to think about the no-lynch situation. I can't believe I'm waiting to hear Locke's opinion on the matter. Oh how the tide has turned.

[Mariyta]

Just thinking out loud here...

rajrhcpfreak
Mariyta
inHimshallibe
Kdub

Razgriz

Locke Lamora
jimfinn

This is our player list. Two of them are scum, one is our QB. If we mislynch today, that puts us 3-2 going into night, and 2-2 tomorrow (game over). If we no lynch, we're 4-2 going into night, 3-2 tomorrow with a sliver of hope remaining. Holy hell, we're the Bills!

If inHim is town, both scum must already be on the wagon. I suggest any townies on that wagon unvote post-haste.

[Mariyta]

Your proposal puts us in a very good position to lose our QB, which would in turn probably lose the game altogether. A no lynch gives us a chance and gives the QB one more night to confirm another player. I'll think on it and let you know tomorrow. Hopefully others will do the same. This isn't the time for people to lurk.

[Mariyta]

Yeah, I still don't like mass claim.

Where the hell is everyone else?

[Mariyta]

Actually, I'm feeling a jimfinn/kdub scum team at this point.

[Mariyta]

It's not that I don't

want

to suspect him. It's that I just

don't

suspect him. He seems town to me. And it's not all of a sudden. I've suspected both of you all game (you can read my cases throughout), and I have a sneaking suspicion that the scum are already on the inHim wagon. It's clearly not LL, or he would've hammered already. That narrows the scum down to you, jim, raj, and inHim. You know my opinion on inHim, and raj's vote seems legit. jim jumped on the person that Antihero suspected the most, w/o giving anything more than "Sounds good to me. Let's run w/ it." And you hopped on after it looked like the wagon had solid momentum, while avoiding the crucial hammer.

[Mariyta]

That is a possibility, but one I find to be less likely.

[Mariyta]

LL- What is your opinion on inHim's refusal to claim?

Raj- is the flipflop on horror the only reason you think inHim is scum?

I'd also like the other two on the inHim wagon to tell me exactly why they're voting him, when we're clearly at a stage where a mislynch means the end for town. Basically, convince me you're right. (At the same time, inHim should be trying to convince them they're wrong, rather than just "I'm not claiming, so ha!")

[Mariyta]

The main reason I've suspected inHim is his lack of contributions the first couple days (just check his iso), plus the fact that he pushed the mongoose and horror lynches fairly strongly and is now pushing for my lynch. His shotty vote looks like a late bus because he had been focused on mongoose the whole time, but suddenly switched when shotty had gotten to L-2 even though he hadn't said anything about him previously.

What is your opinion of jim? If lack of contribution is a criteria for scum, he should be pretty high on your list. All his posts fit on one page. Not to mention he has been on every major wagon w/o really putting himself out there.

However, I've been thinking about the interception. I'm going to do a re-read (may not be til tomorrow) and I'll let you know if I find something I think is worthy of mention.

[Mariyta]

Meaning one of two things happened last night. The QB threw to scum, or the QB threw to offense (Antihero) and the offense was targeted by the cornerback. If the QB threw to scum, I'd expect them to be on the target like white on rice, or at least drop heavy hints. Which means there's a good chance inHim is indeed scum. This sucks. If we mislynch, it's essentially game over. A no lynch will give us one more day, but likely put us in the same position tomorrow. I suggest if the QB cleared inHim, then the QB should come forward. Otherwise... I guess we lynch inHim.

[Mariyta]

Saving Middle Earth, brb.

He's lying.

I'm

saving Middle Earth.

[Mariyta]

LL is the only one who would do so, then. If LL doesn't step forward in the next 48 hours, I'll vote inHim.

[Mariyta]

Raj, are you absolutely certain that inHim is scum? So certain that you're willing to risk the game?

[Mariyta]

Why the sudden change in attitude?

[Mariyta]

Where are Raj and LL?

[Mariyta]

Why two instead of one?

[Mariyta]

That's one of the main reasons I think there are two scum on your wagon rather than three town.

[Mariyta]

Conclusions:

Mari is very likely town. If we take the view that at least one scum would have taken the opportunity to wagon Mongoose, inHim has to be scum. If inHim is town, Kdub is very likely scum with either Raj or Jim, as I don't believe both scum would have left their votes on their Linebacker like that. Right now I'm leaning towards inHim-scum, which I think fits in better with the voting patterns.

Here's the problem with this: If inHim is scum, and you are town, his buddy has to be bussing, which I don't think is likely at this stage in the game. It would be stupid to try to take out your buddy when you'd be the only one left. So, either there are two scum on the inHim wagon (most likely kdub and jim, IMO), or you are his partner. I think a kdub lynch may be the way to go today. He wasn't on the shotty wagon, and he seemed awfully sure that mongoose was town the entire time, when no one else did.

An inHim/Locke scum pair makes sense when taking Razgriz's play into account. And a jim/kdub pair makes sense as well. Raj, I guess you're off the hook.

I need to think about this and do a re-read. I'll try to have it done by Monday, but no promises. We still have a week, so we're in no rush.

[Mariyta]

so Kdub could be a possibility. but if he is scum then his partner has to be either me or jimfinn. so its jimfin.
so right now i see that the scum would be inhim/mari or inhim/locke. very rare chance that its jimfinn/kdub.

As I asked, are you so convinced that inHim is scum that you are willing to risk the game? You know him better than any of us. If you say yes, I say we take out either inHim or kdub.

[Mariyta]

Very well. inHim, claim or you get my vote.

I've also been thinking about the mass claim. The whole reason for not doing it is to protect the QB, but if they die, we have nothing from them so it would have been pointless. If they left breadcrumbs, we'd have something to go on, but if they haven't, I suggest they follow raj's advice and claim after inHim claims. It's probably worth sacrificing one night's investigation for the information gained on the other three.

[Mariyta]

It wasn't shotty's kdub vote that did it for me. It was posts #203-205 (I think). They made me re-read him, and as you saw, I waffled a bit between him and mongoose (who was pretty damn scummy himself). Then I settled on shotty.

[Mariyta]

What about the kdub vote made you switch?

[Mariyta]

Ah, ok. So it wasn't the vote itself (which is in its own post) but the crappy reasoning given afterwards (which I forgot to include in my previous list of shoddy shotty posts). I was confused as to why a vote change w/ no reasoning would make you switch like that.

[Mariyta]

If inHim doesn't claim by tomorrow (Tuesday, at 8pm EST), I will vote him.

[Mariyta]

Town

GW- Backup QB
Mongoose- OT
Coach Travis- TE
horror-WE
Antihero-WE

We haven't seen an OG, FB, or QB yet. The people left are raj, jim, kdub, and LL. One of them is scum and one is the QB. OG and FB are not guaranteed to be in the game. I'm an RB, inHim claims RB. I don't see more than two in the game, so if someone else is an RB, please claim now.

Scum

drmyshottyizsik-Linebacker

Remaining scum options are DE, CB, DT.

I don't know what most of this means or if it will help, but I wanted it all in one place.

[Mariyta]

There are only two options for inHim to have been thrown to N2. A) LL did it, or B) the QB isn't paying attention. And I'm pretty sure LL has already said he didn't do it.

[Mariyta]

I'm starting to think a mass claim might be needed. Yes, I want to protect the QB, but if they die tonight, we lose any results they may have. We have 5 days til deadline, and I don't feel like we're any closer to a lynch.

[Mariyta]

I think it's up to the QB to decide. He's really the only important role. The others don't matter and we can't trust the claims much, IMO.

[Mariyta]

If I am the QB, I did not pass to inHim or hand the ball off on Night 2

What is your opinion on mass claim?

[Mariyta]

If I am the QB, I did not pass to inHim or hand the ball off on Night 2

Oh for Pete's sake... can you say the same for Mari?

Good question. There is no reason I should be cleared at this point, either. Only the real QB can clear anyone.

[Mariyta]

No objections here. Go for it.

[Mariyta]

I think all this "If I am the QB" crap is BS and an easy way for scum to skate through. I think shit needs to come out, before deadline. Too be honest, I only see scum refusing at this point.

[Mariyta]

I really think you're scum. That's the problem.

[Mariyta]

Surprise, surprise. The two I think are likely scum refuse to claim. Sadly, I'm probably wrong about at least one of them.

Unless raj is the QB, there are really only three other options (one I think is very unlikely based on their posts). Unless the scum are stupid, there's basically a 50/50 chance they'll hit the QB tonight. And it also means that inHim and LL are probably scum.

We have 4 days til deadline, fyi.

[Mariyta]

So, yeah, are we claiming? 4 say yes, 2 say no.

[Mariyta]

Despite the fact that defense has a 50/50 chance of hitting the QB, you want a NL w/ the town having absolutely NO information from the QB at all?

[Mariyta]

The more I think about it, I think the scum are inHim and LL, actually. It's either those two, or jimfinn and kdub, but a jimfinn/kdub team is becoming more and more unlikely.

[Mariyta]

Well, this might be the game, but VOTE: inHim.

[Mariyta]

Grrr.... UNVOTE: I just don't know.

[Mariyta]

Yeah, considering we have three days til deadline.

[Mariyta]

I'm not putting the QB's head on a coin flip, I'm putting the chance at new information on a coin flip that we cannot get if the QB claims. If the QB had anything useful to share, it's certainly either breadcrumbed by now if he dies or he doesn't have any.

How do you feel about kdub?

[Mariyta]

I really think a mass claim is the way to go. It's our only chance at having a fair shot. They know who the QB likely is, anyway.

[Mariyta]

But actually, I know who I think the QB likely is, which would mean LL and inHim are scum. So VOTE: inHim.

[Mariyta]

Probably raj.

[Mariyta]

Yes. The QB should go first, even if they don't agree. We have two days to decide which claims to believe and which are bull.

[Mariyta]

The only people who haven't claimed are me, raj, and Locke. jim, pick the order we claim in.

There's pretty much no scenario I can see where inHim is not today's lynch, so I'll just put my vote down now.

VOTE: inHim

Pretty sure you already lynched him. I was waiting for a quick hammer after I voted, and it didn't happen, which means the only scum left after this is LL. Otherwise kdub would've jumped on it right after I voted.

[Mariyta]

The only people who haven't claimed are me, raj, and Locke. jim, pick the order we claim in.

There's pretty much no scenario I can see where inHim is not today's lynch, so I'll just put my vote down now.

VOTE: inHim

Pretty sure you already lynched him. I was waiting for a quick hammer after I voted, and it didn't happen, which means the only scum left after this is LL. Otherwise kdub would've jumped on it right after I voted.

I was wrong. 4 to lynch. For some reason I thought it was 3.

[Mariyta]

I think we have this in the bag.

[Mariyta]

LL is the lynch for the day, correct?

[Mariyta]

LL claimed OT and kdub claimed OG. You're the only one left, I think.

[Mariyta]

Oh, and could Raj and Mari please, to preserve my sanity, reread the Shotty lynch and tell me why on earth scum-Locke would have bussed his Linebacker instead of going for the easy Mongoose lynch? Please? I know Mari is town and it's looking pretty likely Raj is, so could you just stop and think about that for a second?

Please go read #381. I already answered this question. The fact that you keep bringing this question up makes me think you did it so you could say "But would scum-Locke do this???" I'm convinced Locke is the last scum. I really don't think kdub would bus his buddy yesterday when they were in that position, especially taking into account the VCs raj posted, indicating that kdub seemed to think inHim was scum from the get-go.

[Mariyta]

So raj is confirmed.

[Mariyta]

Then that means I'm confirmed. I still think Locke is scum.

[Mariyta]

I guess it's Hail Mary time (anyone remember that Colts game when Jim Harbaugh was still the QB? Or is my age showing?). VOTE: Locke

[Mariyta]

Well, crap. I suck.

[Mariyta]

I have now learnt that Mari always thinks I'm scum, so next time I'll have to work harder to convince her otherwise

Don't take it personally. This game, I was convinced Razgriz was scum based on his play and you just got the raw end of the stick. Your lurking added to it and so on. The other game, the lurking didn't help and Katy's insistence that you were not her mason buddy was a huge strike.

On a completely unrelated note... I decided Locke is a great name for the evil military commander in my novel.

[Mariyta]

Sort of like Peter Wiggin from the Ender's Shadow storyline...

Crap. You're right. I'd forgotten about that. I guess I'll have to change it eventually.

[Mariyta]

Oh, and just so that this stupid trend stops:

shotty has evolved out of VI status. When he acts scummy, it might just be BECAUSE HE'S SCUM.

Have you forgotten the other game we're in and what he just flipped?