Mini 1057: Unsubsidized Mafia (Game Over!)

[DemonHybrid]

/confirm

[DemonHybrid]

Vote: Devon

Welcome to the wonderful game that is Mafia! Now die =)

[DemonHybrid]

Right, yes, it was pure RVS silliness =( Nothing like an introduction to a mafia game by being voted.

Wagons are nice though.

Unvote, Vote: singersigner

[DemonHybrid]

Lordy lawks, why would you misrepresent the truth then!

In any case, the wagon with the most votes is probably right, and I'm on it - so I win.

What exactly did I misrepresent?

Why so srs

Unvote, Vote: Nexus

[DemonHybrid]

Ein knows what's up.

[DemonHybrid]

A Nexus lynch for today! This game is pretty enjoyable.

[DemonHybrid]

I am a data dog. I require more datas. Question time.

Devon, how do you feel about the Nexus wagon? Justified or no?

[DemonHybrid]

Are you even interested in scumhunting?

[DemonHybrid]

She. (Devon is a girl's name too)

I'm not sure on Devon. Waiting for her to answer my question.

And..I'm sorry. I'm confused, how come we've stopped pressuring Nexus?

[DemonHybrid]

I'd be quite surprised if Andrigan's vote wasn't RVS. Let's be sensible, Thor...you JUST voted someone who took an RVS "suspicion" seriously.

[DemonHybrid]

VOTE: DemonHybrid most people who have played with me before know why

...and I have to ask the same question too

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: Didn't see the page turn.

You're still in RVS. Read the thread, enough has been going on.

[DemonHybrid]

I know, apologies on that.

6 games, homework and half-asleepness does not a good combination make.

I'll read over this Far Cry stuff. Nexus is probably still my #1 scumread, but let me do a quick readthrough.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't think Far Cry is a hypocrite at all. I don't get why everyone's even calling it that, it's such a stretch to say that he's being a "hypocrite" by trying to encourage discussion and not do it himself. Are you guys that impatient and suspect him because he didn't do it in the same post? It seems like he clearly knows what's going on and it's unfair to gang up on him like that after one or two posts. Reads come gradually.

I'm not going to harp on Thor about the issue.....

HOWEVER

Unvote, Vote: redtail

I can understand one person going a bit far with the "hypocrite" comments, but two people shows blatant parroting of an argument.

I would say....Nexus/Redtail team for right now. Nexus is lurking after getting caught being too srs.

Preview edit: Bloomsburg of PA, for ASL Interpreting.

[DemonHybrid]

You said something to Nexus in RVS. Nexus responded so srs. We vote him. He shuts up.

If that's not 100% scummy behavior, I don't know what is. Bark.

[DemonHybrid]

I believe Nexus is avoiding the argument, so yes, he's dodging the argument, I would say.

Pressure is wonderful. I'm here to scumhunt, you know, not tunnel one person. I'm still very well aware of Nexus' scumminess, but that doesn't mean I'm capable of examining others for information and using whatever tools at my disposal to do so.

[DemonHybrid]

Jack hasn't done anything scummy so far. Sure, it's weird, but that's Jack's playstyle and is completely null.

[DemonHybrid]

You said something to Nexus in RVS. Nexus responded so srs. We vote him. He shuts up.

If that's not 100% scummy behavior, I don't know what is. Bark.

I don't believe this is scummy behavior for Nexus. He's apt to learning. He doesn't go about this the right way, but he takes it to heart and genuinely wants to learn how to be a better player. It almost got him lynched in the newbie game we were in together, and he was town. Honestly, I think it's a null-tell. I'd have to find more pieces of the puzzle in order to really find him scummy, so everyone on his wagon for

this particular reason

should stfu.

So, he gets a free pass because he's new?

Uhhhhhhh....haha, I wish I got that sort of treatment when I started playing.

[DemonHybrid]

So yeahhhh, that's totally not what I meant, but whatever's cool with you I guess.

I'm guessing you're not one for information.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't how I can make it any clearer than "I'm trying to scumhunt", I.E: I'm questioning everyone and using the power of my vote to extract information from multiple people.

[DemonHybrid]

You're just repeating your questions at this point. I feel Nexus is scummy and I feel redtail is scummy. I only have one vote. Who do I want to pressure more with it? That's all there is to it.

[DemonHybrid]

You're just repeating your questions at this point. I feel Nexus is scummy and I feel redtail is scummy. I only have one vote. Who do I want to pressure more with it? That's all there is to it.

This was meant for thor.

[DemonHybrid]

I may wait till page 7.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data"--Sherlock Holmes

Although I'm still trying to reach Lestrade level

I don't know if I like this kind of Jack.

Ein doesn't like nice and theoretical Jack...

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry, yes, I did miss it.

To me, the fact that he took such a wild argument (Far Cry being a "hypocrite" when he never even had the chance to do what he said he wanted you guys to do...I consider a chance within 10 or so posts) and copied it shows how willing he is to parrot. So yes, the fact that he called Far Cry a hypocrite is 100% scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry, yes, I did miss it.

To me, the fact that he took such a wild argument (Far Cry being a "hypocrite" when he never even had the chance to do what he said he wanted you guys to do...I consider a chance within 10 or so posts) and copied it shows how willing he is to parrot. So yes, the fact that he called Far Cry a hypocrite is 100% scummy.

Wait, so because I made a legitimate argument (granted, one that somebody else made first) I'm scummy? Far Cry even admitted to being a hypocrite. It's not a "wild" argument.

@Nexus: Personally I don't think we can do much about Jack until he actually decides to participate. And his playstyle choice is not in and of itself scummy. I may even try it out sometime.

I would like to hear more from jimfinn and Devon.

I'm sorry, you missed the point plane again. Next flight is at 6:00 PM to Chicago if you're interested.

It wasn't your argument, it was the fact that it was a weird argument to make and it was a COMPLETE copy of Thor. And once again, Far Cry was never given a chance to do what he said wanted done. And you'd think maybe Far Cry is agreeing with you for the sake of the argument.

If Thor didn't call him a hypocrite, would you have?

[DemonHybrid]

First: Why was it a weird argument to make?

Second: I disagree that Far Cry never got a chance to participate in real discussion. Far Cry made plenty of posts before I addressed him. And if Far Cry agrees with the criticism, I don't see the problem.

Third: My answer to the last question is not so simple. I brought up hypocrisy because I objected to Far Cry's definition of the word. If the word "hypocrite" had not already been used, I probably wouldn't have used it. But I would certainly have mentioned and focused on the disconnect between promoting active discussion while discussing little.

First: I explained why called him a hypocrite is weird, and it's been brought up a lot before I even did either. I was just agreeing.

Second: "Far Cry made plenty of posts before I addressed him."

Correct, but he made ONE before Thor harped on him. He spent the rest of his time explaining why Thor was being anal about it.

Third: But you're calling him one nonetheless. And you wouldn't have said it if Thor didn't. It's an argument parroting.

[DemonHybrid]

So...Thor, you're voting me just for the sake of lynching me?

Funny, seeing how people think I'm the one clinging onto an RVS argument.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

Claim: Vanilla Townie

I think Nexus and redtail are the scum here. Keep an eye on Devon and Thor, especially after his devil may care attitude about a lynch. I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry, I've been mega busy.

I said to keep an eye on Devon because she's given some pretty weak reasons for staying on the bandwagon. RVS is LONG gone and I've never seen someone cling onto it for so long.

Like everyone else, I don't like Far Cry's OMGUS. Bad timing.

I'd say on the scumminess scale, Nexus, Far Cry and redtail are ahead. Devon is behind in 4th.

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote

because at this point I'm not sure of who to vote for out of those 3. I'm going to wait and see.

[DemonHybrid]

Well, Far Cry did boost ahead there with the OMGUS vote when called out, but I can't shake that weird feeling I got when Nexus backed off after being called out.

My case on him isn't necessarily stuck in RVS. It's barely after, but still important to me nonetheless.

[DemonHybrid]

Not the same reaction. Far_Cry really tried to fight the argument away, whereas Nexus just sort of disappeared for a while, and then came back when he was called out for backing away.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm not sure who's more suspicious. Hence the unvote. You aren't doing much to make yourself less suspicious though...pretty concerned.

Singer's alright. She's pretty reactive but she's put up good arguments and seems to have a thirst for info. redtail is still scummy due to the hypocrite bandwagon thing.

Aggressiveness in itself is a null tell for me. It needs context.

[DemonHybrid]

My bad, I will have to be replaced

Mafia has just dropped out of my thoughts completely.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[DemonHybrid]

You're right,

I'm trying to look pro town

by admitting I like the playstyle and skill of a player who is replacing out - which is what all town do and what all

scum have to fake doing in order to look town

. Crudsticks, foiled again!

Haha, did you just admit something?

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote if any, Vote: Thor665

I would agree with singer. You're being horribly anti-town now with the sarcasm and terrible responses.

[DemonHybrid]

Please replace me as well - I don't have time for this right now, and I'm not going to keep wasting everyone's time.

Please understand Devon's situation here, we've all been really swamped with work and personal problems, I've been lucky enough to find time to post but not everyone is that lucky.

Come back when you have the time, you're very welcome to join another game with me in the future, Dev =)

[DemonHybrid]

Because this is her first game. She's new. And she feels really bad about replacing out.

[DemonHybrid]

He's replacing out. Is there any reason for you to say this?

She's new and was rather embarrassed about replacing out. I know her IRL (she goes to the same college as I do).

[DemonHybrid]

Singer, it's her FIRST GAME. Let's look at this from a non-game perspective.

Someone wants to try to play mafia. She joins a game, and I tell her to try not to join too many and replace out because a bad rep is something you do not want on mafiascum.

However, RL work gets to be too much for her and she can't find time to reply, so she's forced to. She feels embarrassed about it, so I decide to back her up in this case, regardless of alignment or past play.

And you're going to fucking vote me because of it? Okay.

[DemonHybrid]

So in light of this, I need to re-make my scumlist. I've lost heavy interest in this game in the past few days.

Redtail is still scummy as hell for parroting what I believe to be a ridiculous argument on Far Cry.

Thor is scummy because of sarcastic demeanor and "Let's lynch Demon, because more votes, the better." without any more justification.

Nexus is scummy because of his RVS seriousness. Less so than the others. He's picked up his play.

Devon's spot is still scummy because of lack of reasoning and increased neutrality. I'm waiting to see what her replacement does.

FarCry, Andrigan, nhamman and jimfinn are all fine. Jack needs to post more, but nothing incriminating so far.

singer is still null, but her vote on me is dumb beyond words. I'm almost willing to vote her because of such a lame excuse to vote me, but her other play has been okay.

[DemonHybrid]

Thor is the best lynch because of the following 3 elements:

1. Starting his "hypocrite" argument
2. "More votes = better" and no other justification.
3. Sarcastic demeanor and anti-town attitude when called out.

[DemonHybrid]

You missed the point train again -_-

How does "Please be understanding of her need to replace out. Play with us some other game" equal to a defense AT ALL? Did you forget the post where I said she should have an eye kept on her?

Here's a fun fact: me asking everyone to not be pissed that she's replacing out HAS NOTHING TO DO with my view on what her alignment could be. And I think it's plenty appropriate to speak for someone when they regret being forced to replace out, could get a bad reputation and is in their very first mafia game.

[DemonHybrid]

what is (specifically) my anti-town behavior and how does it hurt town?
Also, sarcasm as a scumtell? How does that work? <---I may or may not be being sarcastic with this question.

If you were sarcastic and sarcastic alone, I would not vote you. No way in hell.

I had called you out for both using a pretty stretchy case on Far Cry (that hypocrite fiasco) and then voting me because "more votes are good". And your reaction to me calling that out is sarcasm. That's what makes it scummy.

A gun is not deadly on it's own. Put a murderer behind that gun and suddenly, the fact that the gun exists is bad.

[DemonHybrid]

And if it's all the same, Thor, if it's the general consensus that your play isn't helping town (and/or only distracting/frustrating town), I might just rethink what your alignment truly is...

Why are you basing your opinions on the general flow of the game instead of how you feel?

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote, Vote: singersigner

Thor put it quite nicely. I still find Thor scummy, but you just pulled ahead in the lead.

[DemonHybrid]

On the meta flipside, I notice she tends to post very dramatically as well, but in other games, she lays off of the dramatics.

Like........ugh, posting like this.........................I mean, really? Jeez...............

Whereas she's no nonsense and to the point otherwise.

[DemonHybrid]

I think that using ellipses and things like "Ugh" are signs of acting. When you are clear and to the point, I think of you as town. Dunno how I can explain that any more clearly.

[DemonHybrid]

You should check out my only game I've ever played as scum, and let me know how that holds up here.

Cool. It's still different than how you've ever posted (from what I've read) and it's just an aside. It's not completely incriminating but it borders on a mixture of fluff and AtE (a little bit of each).

[DemonHybrid]

Thor.

[DemonHybrid]

Far_Cry, you messed up your bold tag for your vote. Wanted to let you know.

[DemonHybrid]

Also know that Sotty is really tipping the scales on the town-o-meter to me with her analysis. Suspicion is off for now.

[DemonHybrid]

@DH Sotty is town so you'll stop suspecting her (you suspected her?)
Her analysis is assault on singersinger's logic and cases.
Your original case on me was sheep of singersinger's.
I'm still number two suspect after singersinger.

Something feels odd here to me, any clarifications on this befuddling mess of reads?

Sotty replaced Devon's spot. I had a suspicion on Devon's spot (read my last post of reads, a bit lazy to find it, but it was immediately after singer voted me).
You forget that I had thought you were scummy long before singer posted that and voted you, and I decided to go with it because you were answering sarcastically. That whole "Are you admitting something" post was me joking around, I believe I included an emoticon with it.

[DemonHybrid]

Demonhybrid claims that sarcasm is a scumtell (?) in regards to Thor.

Don't forget: In addition to what I already thought he was scummy for. Think of it along the lines of AtE.

[DemonHybrid]

1. Singer, feel better. If you are stressed out and sick, give mafia a rest for a while. No one's going to harp on you for replacing out.
2. I'm with Nexus on this one. I'm keeping an eye on you; miller is a VERY easy role to claim.

[DemonHybrid]

Honestly, your case against me is quite valid. And I have no way to defend against it. My actions were wrong and scummy, simple as that. I am town, simply put at that. but there's no way to prove that without lynching me.

I actually am really sick and in the hospital right now, and I'm sorry, but I don't appreciate it when people call bullshit on that. What I

can

think of right now is that I overlooked questions one time reading through the thread, and then acknowledged them after that mistake. I would quote where I did, but I don't have the time or energy to right now. Especially since no one seemed to have the time and energy to be so kind as to help me out when I asked for it.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
I pointed out Thor because I thought his sarcasm and overall rudeness was distracting and anti-town.
I felt that DemonHybrid crossed a fine line when he defended Devon in the thread. It might've been something to add in the end-game. Also not really sure why he claimed...
Nhammen looks to me to be the most towny since he's been level-headed, clear/concise, and has asked good scum-hunting questions.
Far_Cry...well, that blew up in the beginning, but I don't think that he's necessarily scum right now.
Sotty seemed keen to take things out of context, or not quote properly...one of the two.
Nexus...is a confused newb.
I can't get a read on anyone else...or don't really feel like rereading to get any reads on anyone else (being in the hospital takes a lot out of you).

Sorry, I wish I could actually invest in this game right now, but I'm a lot grumpier when I'm sick. It has nothing to do with the game. Please don't hate me.
I'd ask for a replacement, but I feel like you think that would just be useless at this point, and I wouldn't do that to town. I'll let that be up to the mod's discretion. Good luck guys.

So, what can we pick apart?

[DemonHybrid]

Vote: Far_Cry

Singer's had odd interaction with you. You should probably get with the dyin.

[DemonHybrid]

VOTE: far_cry my vote was on you at the end of the day, and the flips only strengthen that opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-MaaxgdUT4

Uh oh.

Haha, I like posting youtube links; might just be my thing.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, you know what would be cool?

If Far_Cry is town (or scum and there are 3 scum), we lynch Nexus. Cause singer defended him every time she talked about him and blamed his play on "oh, he's new".

[DemonHybrid]

I'ma thinkin that Far Cry is uh little bit turnin de argument onto jimfinn a little bit

He made a valid point. OMGUS argument against saporo.

Saporo feels like she's truthful about her miller claim. So, lets lynch far_cry some more plox.

[DemonHybrid]

When I meant "he" made a valid point, I meant jimfinn. He isn't trying to speedlynch, or else he'd be tunneling the fuck out of you, FarCry.

[DemonHybrid]

Because you aren't confirmed scum.

Weak attempt to push suspicion on me.

[DemonHybrid]

BTW, I don't like this post.

You're supposed to be sure of your vote. Why are you speculating that I'm might be town with a vote on me? Makes no sense.

Right.

[DemonHybrid]

Haha, a FoS because you "don't like my transition" from D1 to D2 (which is none at all, I just decided to suspect you).

It's ironic that you use a weak suspicion pin to dispute my claim that you're weakly pinning suspicion.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't care what jimfinn claims, he's pretty obvious town and Far_Cry is getting away with a slap on the wrist and no lynch.

Seriously, ISO F_C and check out his play, Day 1 interactions, etc. and switch this around.

[DemonHybrid]

How is jimfinn obvious town? I'm not seeing it.

Assuming Far_Cry is scum (see what I see for a moment), everything that he's posted has little to no scum motivation. He hardly parroted, made a good case against Far Cry, even picked out my flaws and is straight shooting instead of causing deliberate confusion. jimfinn is just a bad lynch, I shouldn't have to tell you guys this again.

[DemonHybrid]

Far_cry's in an unenviable position though. He started out this day on the defensive and most of what he says is liable to be taken as scummy. It's a confirmation bias thing.

Big deal if he started the game out on the defensive. I hate when people pass up legit scumminess because of the situation. This is how the day went.

Day started.
I voted FC. jimfinn voted FC.
FC said "he doesn't like my multiple suspicions" (attempt to pin weak suspicion)
I catch that he's trying to pin suspicion on me for suspecting him.
"Uh......no, I'm not. rly, bro. lul talk about paranoid"
THEN SERIOUSLY, the NEXT post is him FoSing me for my "D1 to D2 transition" when none exists. Undeniable OMGUS; he still hasn't done anything to dispute his weird connection with singer.

"Plus, before, you seemed quite sure that I was town. Reading between when you said I was scum and when you voted for me D2, you didn't really say anything that would make me think that you changed your thoughts. Thus, your vote on me because I had an "odd interaction with singer" does not look good to me. At all."

A read changes after a flip, and you "don't like it" because my town read on you changed to scum.

Okayyyyyyyy.

You didn't defend yourself at all. I hate using OMGUS when it's not justified; I am a vehement disliker of unjustified OMGUS. But this one....

[DemonHybrid]

jim, don't claim.

One sec, replying to your post.

[DemonHybrid]

I say that singer's flipping scum strengthens my read on FC because at times they appeared to be "directing" each other.

This is really vague. Elaborate, please.

How is jimfinn obvious town? I'm not seeing it.

Same.

I'll assume you're replying to the "I'm not seeing it" part and not re-asking me why I find jim obvtown.

Far_cry's in an unenviable position though. He started out this day on the defensive and most of what he says is liable to be taken as scummy. It's a confirmation bias thing.

Big deal if he started the game out on the defensive. I hate when people pass up legit scumminess because of the situation. This is how the day went.

Day started.
I voted FC. jimfinn voted FC.
FC said "he doesn't like my multiple suspicions" (attempt to pin weak suspicion)
I catch that he's trying to pin suspicion on me for suspecting him.
"Uh......no, I'm not. rly, bro. lul talk about paranoid"
THEN SERIOUSLY, the NEXT post is him FoSing me for my "D1 to D2 transition" when none exists. Undeniable OMGUS; he still hasn't done anything to dispute his weird connection with singer.

1.

DH, you have a flawed view of this game. Very flawed. You seem so intent in defending jimfinn and lynching me. I have yet to see good evidence from you.

2.

Looking at the above post, I have never, ever tried to pin suspicion on you, and I have already stated that before. I was doing something completely normal, and questioning your actions.

3.

I FoS you

because I don't have two votes. I had to choose either between you or jimfinn, and I chose jimfinn. I attacked you because D1, you were quite sure that I was town, and did much to defend me when I came under fire from people like Thor, and nhammen. D2, you're suddenly voting for me, and I don't understand why.

4.

Explain to me why jimfinn was actively lurking in the latter part of D1, then suddenly comes back D2 to wagon me. It looks to me like he's just trying to target me, because I'm an easy target. I know sapo earlier stated that jim was lazytown. But I think he's lazyscum. He doesn't feel the need to defend himself, even considering that he is under a lot of attack (and is L-1 now.) And why is that? Because he ride on the fact that people will attack me because of my bad D1 play and "odd interaction with singer" (which, I must add, can't be as strange as Nexus's interactions with singer D1.)

1. My last few points are evidence enough. You're taking the two people who suspect you and turning cases against them. It's ridiculous.

2. Um....yeahhhh, you realize you contradict yourself when you post

3. this. It's quite easy to say "Oh man..no, I wasn't pinning suspicion on you" when saying "I don't like this....why are you doing it" is EXACTLY what pinning suspicion is. It's subtle enough, and it's building a case which has absolutely no merit, especially when you say something like "I don't like your D1 to D2 transition", which is imaginary and something you made up. I've played the same, I have a new suspect.

I guess your reasoning for suspecting me is that "I changed my read", or something like that. It shouldn't matter what my read is on you. You should be voting me due to holes in my logic, scum motivation, connections, etc., not because "I had a town read on you" or "I have a scum read on you that changed overnight" (after a scum flip, no less). You're reduced to flailing arguments and "I shouldn't HAVE to defend myself, because your case is terrible" without justifying it.

4. It's hardly a "wagon". I placed a vote on you before jim did; you can call it a legit wagon if there are more than half of the votes needed for a lynch. He said it himself; he's just continuing his suspicion because singer's flip and your interactions with her make you more suspect. There's NO WAY in hell he's targeting you because you're an easy target; read his friggin ISO.

Him not pushing to defend himself, I've found, after my last game, is NULL, almost a town tell. There are a lot of reasons why people don't do that; frustration, laziness, spite of the town for making a bad decision, etc.

I like how you mention Nexus' interactions with singer. If I could compare your interactions with her with anyone else's interactions with her, it would be Nexus.

In the end: You had a distant but protective relationship with singer. You OMGUS'd me when I started to suspect you. You're creating an imaginary case by saying my "transition" from D1 to D2 is scummy when said transition doesn't exist. You're saying that jim is looking for an easy lynch when all he's BEEN doing is suspecting you. You have no willingness to read, no willingness to care who gets lynched, and you want to save your own skin in this case, because now you have two people against you and the pressure's starting to make you crack.

Make the right decision and lynch Far_Cry, people.

[DemonHybrid]

*My last few posts

Sorry

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, I'd just like to say as well that

in my experience

, voting and FoSing in the same post is a major scumtell.

[DemonHybrid]

1. I'm making my case pretty clear, in my opinion. I'm making a case based on the possible motivations behind your actions, it's all you can do in mafia.

2. Questioning isn't, but saying "I don't like this post" is.

3. My case has nothing to do with your playstyle.

4. Um, he's voting for you because of D1 + your interactions with singer. His read has never changed, and I can't see why you used to find that scummy, but now don't.

The EBWOP: I don't want to go neck deep into game theory, but usually scum want to have a backup suspicion in a giant case. It's debatable what the alignments of people getting voted and FoSed is, but in every game I've played, someone has FoS/Voted and turned out to be scum.

[DemonHybrid]

I've fos/voted plenty of times as town. I don't see it as a valid tell.

To each his own, but I have yet to see someone FoS and vote in the same post and not be scum.

This is somewhat true, but only because he has hardly posted.

Also I would argue his case is parroting. These two posts are one after the other right at the start of the day.

Uh, and?

He didn't parrot me, he didn't outwardly state he wanted to wagon. My guess is that if I had not voted FC, he would have anyway. Why do you guys keep calling it "easy targeting" or "blatant parroting"? That's a stupid assumption to make.

Only after being asked to a number of times did he state his reasoning:

Right, cause he waits on you hand and foot. Maybe he just wasn't around when you guys kept asking him.

Which is very similar to saying they had an "odd interaction" as it is the most obvious thing a scum pair would do if they were indeed a scum pair. Note he still hasn't provided any examples of this.

So, are you aggreeing with him, or....?

As far as examples go, I don't feel like bringing up every post. Neck deep in work at the moment, but singer and FC did that whole "I'm going to suspect you, argue with you a bit, but not go too deep into it and never vote you" tango. Only when the singer wagon took off did FC decide to jump on, which was a complete 180 from his earlier views: He went from agreeing with singer to "Well, the singer case seems valid, I guess. *vote*".

Can we please start voting FC? Because you all will feel really silly if jim flips town and then town is going to spiral out of control like Murder in the Desert just did. (Game is over, so I'm comfortable with talking about it)

[DemonHybrid]

I um what? If there are clues that Nexus is scum, why don't we consider lynching him? Why do we have to go through someone else first? I'm really left feeling uneasy about this post. Lining up lynches and such. However, I think this is more bad play than scummy. That may just be me being too sure of my earlier Town-read.

There's a ton of more evidence against FC then there is about Nexus, due to Nexus' lurking. Both are still really scummy, despite FC's flip (given that Nexus doesn't shape up between now and then)

[DemonHybrid]

I do agree with Thor that at this point, DH is kind of playing like he's full of himself, thinking that his case against me is soooo good. However, I'm beginning to change my views on him (DH). More and more he starts looking town to me. I doubt scum would be so die-hard in pursuing a case against me. Plus, possibilities of him buddying with jimfinn is low, as it's quite obvious (although I am sick and tired of him defending jimfinn, when jimfinn should be doing so himself.)

Concerning Nexus, I see the points you guys are giving about him. And I'm becoming more convinced that he is suspicious. However, my only problem is that I feel that we just let jimfinn off the hook. We built up a wagon against him, got him to L-1, and now we just let him go. It doesn't seem sense to me. I still feel that jimfinn is actively lurking.

I will iso Nexus, and see what comes up.

Are you backpedaling with your read on me? What happened to your FoS? I've been pursuing you this hard all day, so what was it that made you decide that I'm town now?

I think my case is pretty legit and my vote is staying on you.

[DemonHybrid]

Yep, let's degrade ourselves to the "insult the other's intelligence" realm.

Post #381 sounds like a bunch of attacking. If you really believe that that's how I played (by the way, I'm about to pick it apart in a little, so don't get used to the "my case is better" feeling), then why aren't you voting me with a burning passion?

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: Sorry, for a little, it sounded like an ISO of me.

Disregard my last post, I have a pretty nasty migraine atm.

[DemonHybrid]

That's me on L-1. Do you want me to claim?

Yeah, please do.

Considering hammering after class, we'll see how the new information will play out.

I will respond to ThAdmiral later.

[DemonHybrid]

Wait, no. It's not L-1.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm not voting jimfinn. Still a terrible lynch.

[DemonHybrid]

Far....man, that's like the 2nd time you asked why I think he's a bad lynch. My opinion hasn't changed.

I also explained why I think Nexus is scummy, along with you (still). You've got eyes, you can read.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm not voting jimfinn. Still a terrible lynch.

It's almost as if you

know

he is town.
Do you?

Of course not.

Assuming you know that I already claimed VT, is this an attempt to associate me with him?

[DemonHybrid]

Of course not.

Assuming you know that I already claimed VT, is this an attempt to associate me with him?

You could also be a cop trying not to get NKed.

I'm just pretty sure on my read.

Also,

Unvote, Vote: Nexus

, because either/or is fine, Nexus is closer, the day is nearly over, and Far_Cry is obviously not going to be today's lynch.

[DemonHybrid]

Someone's a L-1, meaning anyone can end the day at any time, and I'm sure they would be more than happy to.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, yeah. Go ahead and claim.

[DemonHybrid]

Who would you have investigated?

Unvote

[DemonHybrid]

I'm willing to believe the claim. I would suggest a doctor protext Nexus tonight. People make mistakes, this is what, your 2nd game?

Vote: Far_Cry

[DemonHybrid]

I know that you have claimed VT but my belief that you are indeed town is starting to waver. I've never seen a player without any other evidence be so sure that someone is town. Especially when that someone hasn't been playing a very pro-town game at all.

I'm confident in my reads.

As far as me associating you with him... I think its fair to say that you are pretty heavily associated with him due to your own actions.

What a bad way to put it.

Being associated with someone is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BALLGAME than having a solid town read on them. Associated meaning you're affiliated with them in some way (like masons or scum). Having a town read on them meaning you're confident they're town, but not confirmed that they are.

ThAdmiral, I should say the same thing about my read on you. You've been twisting my arguments around a little more than is comfortable, and I don't like when people do that. Means they're not thinking things through. And scum are usually the ones that don't think things through.

[DemonHybrid]

I want to lynch jimfinn because I tend to suspect FC was a counter wagon to singersinger and I believe jimfinn's lurking has been strategic in nature which I don't think can be believed of FC's lurking.

FC hasn't been lurking. He's just been offering wishy-washy statements. I also think the FC counterwagon is a valid theory only if you're very sure that jimfinn is scum, because he started it and some pro-town players jumped on it due to it's merits.

I am pretty undecided on jimmy-boy.

Which actually directly contradicts something I posted earlier today.

Why aren't you hammering him, Thor?

I like your honesty. +town points, and...well, the miller claim. I can see where you're coming with on that.

Consider yourself most town IMO, jim 2nd.

[DemonHybrid]

I have a midterm to take today, I'll make a post later today after I'm finished and answer whatever.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm going to make this short and to the point.

I feel singer tries to distance herself in this post: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2533193

...then completely changes a tune, since no suspicion is on Far_Cry: "Oh, he seems town." http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2558738

Far Cry continually finds scummy play from singer, but conveniently votes her to put her L-1.

On Nexus. Sounds like he's starting to become suspicious:

Oh really? That sounds likes you are pretty protective of him. Noob or not, good playstyle or not, there is no execuse for not defending yourself in the face of accusations. This makes me suspicious of you.

But this post has a hint of coaching: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2533032

A hint of coaching and buddying: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2533235

Seems like more coaching. On singer's anti-town list attitude:

Not getting you here. This doesn't seem like a great reason for not doing a town list. You wouldn't post "most-townie to least townie." You would just put down your thoughts on every player so far (at least thats my definition of town list.)

THEN here comes the vote post out of nowhere. If she has contradicted herself, why didn't you point it out earlier?

I don't like to piggyback or buddy at this point, but this case against singer seems reasonable. You indeed have been quite unclear of your intentions and have contradicted yourself. With the deadline closing in, I will put you at L-1 and VOTE: singersigner

I think this is textbook bussing, struck me as weird.

I'm not going to be posting fancy buzzwords or try to blow the case up more than it is. Cutting to the chase: Far_Cry dicked around with his singer suspicion, and then voted her last second. Mentioned FC once and went from having a shady view on him to "Oh yeah, he's totally town".

[DemonHybrid]

*Singer mentioned FC once and went from having a shady view on him to "Oh yeah..."

[DemonHybrid]

Anyway, it's a specific LACK of interaction, and still a L-2 vote from FC that makes me suspicious of the interactions.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry, I missed a post in my ISO. I'm half asleep right now.

I feel like she tried to distance herself in: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2532839 this post and http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2533193 this one.

[DemonHybrid]

Vote: Far_Cry

Glad to be of service.

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote, Vote: ThAdmiral

I like that that's your only reasoning, and not the fact that I may have actually gotten a read right, which is what I usually do. I actually had a big feeling that this is what you were going to do this day.

I'd like to know how "I was way too sure he was town" when I provided reasoning on why I thought he was town. My stance on jim has NEVER changed.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, if there is a non-sane cop, you need to out yourself right now and give us your actions and results.

And if there is a non-sane cop, this is not a normal set up. =| But lets not hinder town.

[DemonHybrid]

This comment screams to have itself explained more. Where you already suspicious of ThAdmiral yesterday and I missed it? Why is this action of his so worthy of a vote when you're so certain of Far_Cry?

Yes.

Also, I had predicted someone on jim's wagon was going to blame me for "being too sure he was town" and completely discount my read, and I knew that that was definitely the person to go for. While I'm not going to go out of my way to clear Far_Cry, his AtE seems frustrated.

I was more focused on asking Admiral questions than explaining myself, so apologies.

[DemonHybrid]

To delve deeper: That's a classic scum attack. Someone gets a read right, and they try to undermine the read at the source: "It definitely couldn't have been right because you already knew it." Which is a downright logical fallacy. I had legitimate evidence supporting my read on jimfinn. The only thing that changed is that I gave up trying to convince people to step off of his wagon due to frustration (I am human, of course).

[DemonHybrid]

drshotty, please give your opinions of the game so far.

[DemonHybrid]

How is jimfinn obvious town? I'm not seeing it.

Assuming Far_Cry is scum (see what I see for a moment), everything that he's posted has little to no scum motivation. He hardly parroted, made a good case against Far Cry, even picked out my flaws and is straight shooting instead of causing deliberate confusion. jimfinn is just a bad lynch, I shouldn't have to tell you guys this again.

[DemonHybrid]

I find it opportunistic that Admiral is attacking me because I was the only one originally against jimfinn's lynch. That's all there is to it.

[DemonHybrid]

No, shotty, it wasn't "gut".

[DemonHybrid]

Ugh.

So you are the only person to take my post literally. Interesting...

It had nothing to do with your post. It had to do with jim's flip and my suspicions from yesterday, I took your AtE as scummy at the time until Admiral posted.

So you OMGUS vote him. Interesting. Was your vote on me a trap, that you are hoping that Admiral or somebody else might fall into?

For the love of christ, why does everyone improperly use the term "OMGUS"?

You guys are supposed to be better than me at mafia. I'm the newbie here, seriously, what the hell?

Textbook definition of OMGUS:

Player A: "Vote: Player B. He's mad scummy because he seemed like he auto-knew someone was town."
Player B: "DUDE, go fuck yourself! Vote: Player A"
Player A: "Oh my, OMGUS!"

NOT OMGUS:

Player A: "Vote: Player B. He's mad scummy because he seemed like he auto-knew someone was town."
Player B: "Vote: Player A. I don't like the fact that you're attacking me because of it, it seems opportunistic. I just happened to get my read right."
Player A: "Oh my, OM

NO. WRONG.

OMGUS is only OMGUS when the counter-vote has no reasoning to back it up. Please stop trying to pin suspicion on me.

And no. Admiral legitimately skyrocketed above you on scumminess. You are second on my list.

But realize, we don't know how to take your defense of jimfinn. You could have just made a mistake, or you could be buddying.

Uh....made a mistake? I made a good read. I proved it with evidence. That's not a "mistake"; you guys were the ones that made the mistake.

Let's not get out of hand with this.

Does everyone agree that my reasoning for not suspecting jimfinn is valid?

Please refer to my recent reply to Admiral; I brought the post back up.

You've been doing quite a lot of defense. I'm not sure whether to take this as town or scummy. Need some time to think.

So, I'm forced to defend myself, and when I do, it "could be scummy". You realize how ridiculous that sounds, right?

[DemonHybrid]

Because he was extremely opportunistic and foreshadowed my vote late Day 2? (When I started suspecting Admiral)

[DemonHybrid]

Also, I NEVER said Far_Cry looked town. I said I wasn't clearing him just because he used frustrated AtE.

[DemonHybrid]

Please point out instances of parroting, why his case on Far Cry was bad, what was scummy about him picking out my flaws and how he was wishy-washy with his playing, trying to cause deliberate confusion.

[DemonHybrid]

You didn't say this when you voted for me. And when you said, "Glad to be of service," I assumed you voted because I said you should....

You're right. I didn't say anything when I voted for you, so why are you assuming?

Do you call this valid reasoning, if there's any reasoning at all? I still believe you OMGUS. Also funny is your overreaction.

Uh.....yes? That is valid reasoning. But hey, loaded question, so that's cool, bro.

Wasn't an overreaction. I fucking hate when people misrep the word OMGUS and don't actually know how to use it.

When I said mistake, I meant you made a mistake in your reasoning, in why you thought jimfinn is town. It proved correct, but your reasons for it didn't make sense. So no, your reasons for not suspecting jmfinn were not valid.

I'm still waiting for an answer on this, as per my last post. Starting to look like confirmation bias.

I'm not liking your defense; that's the problem. I find it so funny that your critisize me for EVERYTHING I do. And everything you do is SOOO good. You were so sure jimfinn was town D2 and that I was scum. You know what I think? You're an egotistical bastard, and you need to quit making yourself look so good.

So...I AM making myself look good? Thanks for the compliment.

Honestly, I feel like you guys are fucking up a completely good start to a game. You tunneled jimfinn to death, someone didn't protect a claimed cop, and you guys are attacking me for getting a read right without proving that my logic was bad, which makes your logic completely empty.

Thanks for the insult, though. I believe that's the 2nd insult in this game. If you're town, which I doubt, you're doing a terrible fucking job at being town. Now please answer my question instead of insulting me and try to prove your logic instead of tunneling without reasoning, just like you did to jimfinn.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: try to prove your logic instead of tunneling without

good

reasoning, just like you did to jimfinn.

[DemonHybrid]

@DH - as above, feel free to respond to the rest of FC's post, but zip it on the OMGUS thing unless some other player wades in thinking that's a valid tell on you. Trust me, nobody cares or is impressed either way.

Just as long as people start learning. It's a pet peeve that people use that boiler plate in a non-valid way and call it a good argument, but that's the last I'm commenting on the situation.

@DH - still not sure I quite follow your shift from Far_Cry to thAdmiral. You seemed really focused on Far_Cry as scum, used it to clear a player yesterday, and even came into today calling scum on FC yet again - however one "opportunistic" argument from Admiral and he supercedes FC in your mind? What's up with that?

I feel what Admiral did was a classic scum maneuver to undermine a good read and to try to weed down townliness. I've done it plenty as scum, and it's a pretty big logical fallacy to completely disregard any logic that I had without explain why they're disregarding it and turning to voting me for getting a read right. Far_Cry still looks mega scummy, but I can't ignore how opportunistic Admiral was.

[DemonHybrid]

I think he is trying to bus

I'm trying to bus Admiral?

Oh...right..."drmyshottyizsik".

I'm going to try to get through the game and completely ignore you

[DemonHybrid]

You went from agreeing with me to "He's trying to bus Admiral".

....what?

Yes. I will try my hardest to ignore you, hahaha

[DemonHybrid]

And why's that?

[DemonHybrid]

...you realize you haven't come close to justifying suspicion for me, right?

[DemonHybrid]

If we have a vig, please shoot shotty tonight.

[DemonHybrid]

post 460 - he just reposts what sapovirus said as his case against far cry.

Misrep. He thanked her for making a good case; he didn't try to steal it and use it himself. Nice try.

Because he didn't have one, and when asked multiple times didn't tell us what it was.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2591712
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2591737
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2536920
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2571672
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2587779, which isn't a parrot.

Not really relevant.

Then you don't really care about whether he was town or not. Picking out someone's flaws like he did to me screams pro-town.

Saying that his case on far cry was based on "they appeared to be "directing" each other" (from post 351, referencing singer and farcry), but never actually presenting any reasoning/evidence of this.

And they were. You don't need to be a fucking lawyer to direct someone's attention to something like that and bring EVERY piece of evidence to the table.

I'm not sure he was trying to cause deliberate confusion

Good. Then stop talking.

@ demonhybrid: there's just no way any sane person could have thought he was town - even by your own reasoning! - unless they had inside knowledge. Since you've already claimed vt that means you clearly don't have an investigative role, therefore you are scum.

Do I even need to talk about how awful this logic is?

1. Finding jimfinn town = insane, even with reasoning. False, because reads in mafia are subjective.
2. Having inside knowledge about jim being town = I MUST be an investigative role or scum. False, because I don't have inside knowledge; I made a good subjective read on jimfinn.
3. I don't have said investigative role because I claimed VT = I must be scum. False. He is assuming that #1 (which is false) and #2 (which is false) are both true.

You have no basis on which to vote me or create a case against me. It has been nothing but misrepping, lies, and painting peoples' hands red.

Can we lynch ThAdmiral, please?

[DemonHybrid]

I can't be fucked with this any more to be honest. It is a bit retarded that we are arguing over perceptions of a dead townie. And I know you're just going to come out with some overly hostile wall of text in response...
Can we just skip it? We're clearly not going to change each others minds.

So, you just have to answer to the evidence which I presented against you. That's cool.

You've mentioned this a few times. Can you explain it?

Furthermore it seems to be the only thing that lead you to believe he was town. All of the other stuff you point out at best only indicate that he may not necessarily 100% have been scum, as opposed to indicating that he was town. You had/have blinkers on when talking about jimfinn as if he played like he was some paragon of townliness when it is clear that he wasn't.

He had two supporters yesterday, and he dared to challenge one. How the hell is that NOT pro-town?

Saporo, you are fucking failing. Hardcore. Furthermore, funny you should mention the Absol in my avatar; maybe you should look up to see what an Absol does. Holds special meaning, ESPECIALLY in this game.

So in summary his d1 FoS are all over the place

No kidding? So has everyone else's. You're making no sense, and like everyone else, you've found a bullshit reason to suspect me.

Far_Cry is a very easy lynch to sell in this game (sorry bro). However, I'm just not feeling his scumliness anymore (sounds dirty) because DH basically has been tunneling the fuck out of him. I know that his tone hasn't been great in this game, but he dug himself into a hole early on and I honestly just think he's acting out because he's been hounded (lol). Also, DH claims to be "confident in his reads" but he was kind of all over the place on that d1, which suggests to me he's been distracting town on purpose.

I wasn't too confident in my reads Day 1. That's what a Day 1 in mafia is like; NO ONE is very sure on their reads until the first flip, so where the hell have you been?

so ThAdmiral's last post confirms for me EVEN MORE that he is town. Way to not mire town down, buddy! <3

Please explain why. I basically cockslapped him with evidence and he backed down, and you find that town?

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: "So, you just have

no

answer to the evidence which I presented against you. That's cool."

[DemonHybrid]

To further comment, he was the one that started said "perceptions of a dead townie" and is the reason why he's voting for me. I don't see how ANY of you people can't see the scumminess in that.

[DemonHybrid]

First, if multiple FoSes are not a scumtell, especially on Day 1, and seems to be random and you have to -try- to see the pattern, why do you think there's even a pattern in the first place? You basically just told me that your vote makes no sense, and it doesn't.

Second, Saporo, he STARTED the conversation! It's the reason why he's voting me! It does NOT look better when he votes me for viewing jimfinn as obvious town, tries to push reasoning against me for that which looks terrible and then backs away when I present valid and concrete evidence! And if you think that what I'm posting are "walls", you're very sorely mistaken.

I get angry when I'm frustrated. When people push such terrible cases against me and call them valid while completely ignoring and discrediting evidence which took time and patience to put together, it gets me frustrated.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, for those that are too lazy to look up Absol:

"Absol is able to predict when a natural disaster will occur, and tries to warn people when one is approaching. This often has the unfortunate effect of Absol itself being blamed for the disaster."

[DemonHybrid]

Like I said, Far_Cry.

[DemonHybrid]

Thor, was that meant for me?

I honestly have no read on nhamman. He posted nearly no information, and shotty is shotty.

[DemonHybrid]

This is a point, but I don't think it guarantees that he is scum. Your reason is by playing the obvious - that since DH KNEW that jimfinn was town (in fact, the only person who thought he was town) and since he's obviously not the cop, he MUST be scum. The idea of him having inside info (scum) is plausible, but I don't think him knowing that jimfinn was town proves anything yet. Though I do agree, that his reasoning for supporting jimfinn was faulty.

Closer, but still no. Could it be plausible for me to have inside info? Sure. Could it be plausible that any of you guys to have inside info but still choose to lynch jim? Even moreso.

I STILL have yet to find out why my reasoning was faulty. So...yeah, you guys are still failing.

This is something that can be easily said. I know reads are subjective, but if your reasoning was faulty, then its obviously something that needs to be paid attention to.

But it wasn't. And you guys have yet to still prove that. Admiral already tried to pin him with parroting, which was completely false. What's your excuse?

I addressed this above; no, you're not guaranteed scum. But you saying, "Oh, I don't have inside knowledge" isn't proving anything, and as a result, not helping your case. BTW, you did NOT have a "good subjective read" on jimfinn.

I know it isn't, but maybe if you guys would fucking listen to someone other than yourselves for once in your lives, that might help. And obviously I did have a good read on jim, because I wasn't the one that lynched obvious town. You guys were.

Whoa. This is what I was talking about when I called you an egotistical bastard. True, Admiral's case was not solid, but its not based on lies, like you said.

For this whole game, you've been in love with your cases, and thinks everybody else's cases sucked. Tell me, did you ever say anyone else's case besides your own was good? Quit playing like you're the fucking know-it-all, because you're screwing things up.

More insults. Keep it up.

And yes. I said I liked saporo's arguments, until just recently. I liked everyone's arguments vs Nexus, until he claimed, obviously. I liked all of the singer cases.

Ummmmm, yeaaaaah. This is not convincing me anything. DH's play D2, has nothing to do with his play D1, so it doesn't mean anything that he was all over the place D1 and then centered on me D2.

And Admiral has not at ALL confirmed that he is town. So stop acting like he's obvtown.

Actually, this is true. I'm going to need to take a closer look at Admiral, maybe do an ISO of him.

So you're saying that the scum trio is singer, ThAdmiral/Jack, and I. Tell me, how did you link Admiral and I? Or maybe Admiral/Jack to singer?

I think there's a scum duo. If it's not Admiral, it's you, and I don't think it's all 3 of you. (yes, still. You have agreed with me, but that doesn't make the past any different, and I still have an eye on you. Submitting to that would just be bias, and I think we all know that.)

Preview edit: .....did....shotty just...say something extremely smart?

[DemonHybrid]

No. Both you and redtail have improved play and I view you guys as town.

Shotty is tilting over the fence on the town side with that last statement, however. He's using his brain and actually improving, and I don't think that you improve that well going from a bunch of games where he was VI-town to playing scum, so I'm going to believe that he's town now.

Saporo is and always has looked town, but she's misguided now.

[DemonHybrid]

Because it's the first game where he actually made LOGICAL sense.

Get over yourself, Admiral.

[DemonHybrid]

Why get over myself?
Where have I implied that I think I'm awesome?

The fact that you're still pursuing your case without even taking a glance at the evidence I've provided (willingly, no less).

Because you backed down from answering my questions and evidence, you realize that the base of why you're voting me has been obliterated, right? Why doesn't shotty make sense to you, and why is your vote on me if you don't want to talk or think about perceptions on lynched townies because it's too distracting to town, when in fact, the reason WHY your vote on me is because you said I thought jimfinn was too town (which is a perception on a lynched townie)?

[DemonHybrid]

Just comes with the style, nothing personal. Read the sig

Answer please?

[DemonHybrid]

Admiral, you are caught in a hole here. There was a lot of mumbo jumbo in my post when I asked you the question, so I'll restate it simply this time.

If I can get ONE thing out of this game, it would be this:

ThAdmiral, why would you want to completely forget the discussion about me viewing jimfinn as obvious town and still vote for me when you clearly stated that you're voting for me because I viewed jimfinn as obvious town?

Please do not use an excuse like "I'm starting to look more town". Post #577 on this page explicitly stated that you believe shotty and I are a scumteam.

This is numero uno, #1 priority question that needs to be answered, asap.

[DemonHybrid]

I told myself after jim's flip to pursue the person who comes after me with that exact case, as it's an easy way for scum to manipulate town into playing their game. While Far_Cry is still scummy from the way that he treated jimfinn among other things, Admiral's play late D2 showed him silently and slowly switching onto the jimfinn wagon, and setting up suspicion on me.

Again, I believe with an 11 player set up and that there is only two scum. With that, I have an "either Admiral OR Far_Cry" mindset. While Admiral's question dodging cements it for me, along with his opportunism, I honestly had pretty bad reads my first day and I don't like to look back to day 1 for information on Admiral. It's way too easy to bus, to set up bullshit cases, to gain town points, etc. until the first flip is out.

Could Admiral and Far_Cry be scum together, making a 3 man scum team? Possibly, but you don't have to have a scummy day 1 in order to cement a read. Just look at the way he switched over to the jimfinn wagon. If I HAD to make a 3 man scum team, it'd be Admiral, Far-Cry and singer (obviously). Assuming there are 3 scum and they are it, the bussing on Day 1, as you brought up, would fit in perfectly, but that's the reason why I don't include it into my case: I don't trust Day 1 information and I don't believe that there are 3 scum.

Here is where he started setting up suspicion on me:

I know that you have claimed VT but my belief that you are indeed town is starting to waver. I've never seen a player without any other evidence be so sure that someone is town. Especially when that someone hasn't been playing a very pro-town game at all.

I'm confident in my reads.

As far as me associating you with him... I think its fair to say that you are pretty heavily associated with him due to your own actions.

What a bad way to put it.

Being associated with someone is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BALLGAME than having a solid town read on them. Associated meaning you're affiliated with them in some way (like masons or scum). Having a town read on them meaning you're confident they're town, but not confirmed that they are.

ThAdmiral, I should say the same thing about my read on you. You've been twisting my arguments around a little more than is comfortable, and I don't like when people do that. Means they're not thinking things through. And scum are usually the ones that don't think things through.

And it's also when I started to suspect him. I had a big feeling that someone after this post would auto-vote me after jim flipped town and that's why my read is so strong on him.

[DemonHybrid]

*and that's why my read is so strong on Admiral.

I have a fever, bear with me.

[DemonHybrid]

I still believe that argument, but I just didn't want to get in to a wall-of-text vs wall-of-text battle that it was becoming.
Essentially this is my standpoint: given how terrible and seemingly scummy jimfinn was playing, as I said almost mocking the town with his lack of contribution and wallowing in his apparent scumminess, I don't understand how anyone could have a) thought he was town at all, and b) really, really, really thought he was town to the point where that someone would defend him to the death.
I've never played with jimfinn before. If he truly does play like this as town then he is a fairly useless player.

That isn't answering my question. That's stating why you started talking about it, but why did you start talking about it, back away from the argument and keep your vote on me?

[DemonHybrid]

It wasn't a wall-of-text battle, it's a legitimate concern.

You said, quote:

It is a bit retarded that we are arguing over perceptions of a dead townie. And I know you're just going to come out with some overly hostile wall of text in response...
Can we just skip it? We're clearly not going to change each others minds.

I'm not doubting that you didn't want a text wall battle, and I understand that. But you realize that you were the one that started the argument and are still voting me for such a reason, right?

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry for the triple post, this fever is completely screwing with my head. Let me try to make myself more clear, since I'm not focusing that well.

Basically, my point comes down to the "This argument is retarded" part of your statement. If the argument is retarded, why do you still believe it and why are you still voting me because of it?

[DemonHybrid]

@Mod: Saporo isn't voting anyone

[DemonHybrid]

As to the second bit: it's more that I believe he's very stubborn

Why do you think scum would be "stubborn" about having a town read?
Why wouldn't you be saying scum is "lying" about having a town read?

"Stubborn" as in set in his ways. He would be stubborn as either town or scum as he would either be stubbornly sticking to his read or stubbornly sticking to what he said was his read about jimfinn.

You're trying way too hard at this point.

[DemonHybrid]

You completely missed Thor's point.

Why is it "stubborn" both ways, when I would be inevitably "lying" to everyone as scum? Sure, I'm stubborn in my demeanor, but you can't be "stubborn" if you've had a plan all along, surely.

[DemonHybrid]

Do not hammer, a claim would be nice.

[DemonHybrid]

How sure am I?

I don't know. Pretty sure, 75-80%ish. Why do you ask?

[DemonHybrid]

How sure am I?

I don't know. Pretty sure, 75-80%ish. Why do you ask?

You sound pretty sure.

Are you sure enough to vote for yourself tomorrow if you are wrong? Knowing that if I'm scum, which in your eyes is very likely, you don't have to worry about a thing?

What a silly question.

Uh...yeah, I'm with saporo. What kind of question is that?

Are you dodging a claim?

[DemonHybrid]

Uh....no?

Voting myself is a detriment to town. I can't believe you're seriously asking that.

[DemonHybrid]

By the way, you've known you simply needed to claim over the course of 3 posts and about a day and a half.

[DemonHybrid]

ThAdmiral: this is not a goddamn Wild West saloon. You'd have absolutely no way of enforcing that bet even if DH agreed to it. Now play like a normal person.

Haha, I was about to say, I didn't know we were playing russian roulette.

[DemonHybrid]

Are you guys serious? Can we have some freaking information, please?

@Admiral: What redtail said, like 50 times over. How can you even attempt to try to build a case on the rejection of voting myself? How can you see saporo as less town than anyone else (especially far_cry, who you can't explain your town read on, with the exception of "it just seems genuine") with her Miller claim with no knowledge of a Cop?

And yes. A lot of what you said was scummy, especially this "bet" thing that you recently tried to pull. How does me refusing to detriment the town by voting myself (someone who I know is town) make me scummy?

I'd like you to answer this, then we can hammer. I don't think Far_Cry will comply with Thor's request.

[DemonHybrid]

Uh....no?

Voting myself is a detriment to town. I can't believe you're seriously asking that.

Listen to him. He wouldn't need to vote himself if I turned up scum, something he apparently thinks I am. Therefore he either doesn't actually think I am scum or is in fact scum himself.

In any case I don't think I shall survive much longer. Please lynch dh tomorrow.

The way I figure it if Thor, redtail or sapovirus are scum they've more or less already won. I can't adequately explain my town read on farcry. He's been playing badly but for some reason a lot of his posts seem oddly genuine. As I said before it makes perfect sense to me if drshotty is scumpartners with dh.

Anyway before you start whinging here is my claim: vanilla town. Sorry for the anti climax.

I know I'm very likely to be lynched but look over what I've said, mainly today, and ask yourself if it was actually all that scummy. All I really did was state who I was suspicious of and gave my reasons. I didn't want to continue arguing with dh because it would have been pointless. I never backed down from what I believed.

[DemonHybrid]

He explicitly mentioned Far_Cry as a town read, and grouping saporo in with you and redtail as possible scum. I'd say that implies that he views Far_Cry as more town than saporo, as was my point.

[DemonHybrid]

Regardless, I think he may have worded it wrong. It's part of the reason why I was asking him.

[DemonHybrid]

Alright, thanks for the clarification. The way you worded it seemed like you were suspecting them past me.

.....pedantic peccadilloes

[DemonHybrid]

Far_Cry.

If you are town, you are failing. If you are too lazy to talk NOW but not too lazy to talk after Admiral's HAMMER, then what the hell?

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote

, and here's why.

I find EXTREME scum motivation behind Far_Cry's willing to comment AFTER Admiral's hammer, but not before. Shows he doesn't care about the turnout of the lynch at all, and until he justifies this, he actually puts himself on the same level of scumminess that Admiral is at.

Along with this, Admiral's play is absolutely frustrating, but I can somewhat understand how everything that he posted MIGHT have been a mistake, even if they are contradictions. Doesn't justify his little high noon showdown stunt that he pulled recently, which is really iffy, along with setting up suspicion on me Day 2, then immediately voting me Day 3. Doesn't look good at all.

I need to decide.

shotty and saporo are obvtown to me. Thor looks town, but not obv town, and redtail is mid neutral. I'd like your input on this decision, all of you, mainly the following argument:

What's worse: Silently switching over to a townie's wagon and silently setting up suspicion on someone, following with a vote the day after, a stunt that requires almost clairvoyant skill? Or someone who absolutely refuses to give any information or ask any questions until a flip is over, even though from the start, he said he was too "lazy" to, implying that he wouldn't have made a case the day after regardless? It's obvious he isn't "lazy", he has something to hide, or else he wouldn't want to make a case regardless; why does he have to wait for a flip?

[DemonHybrid]

I want to wait for redtail's thoughts until I vote for Admiral. Reasonable request, no? But yeah, I like your thinking, saporo, and am leaning on hammering Admiral.

[DemonHybrid]

Nothing nhamman or shotty has done has any scum motivation. They both were trying to stay out of the way and although they haven't been the most vocal players, I really haven't objected to anything they've said. That may change in the future, but I like where our reads are at.

[DemonHybrid]

Listen to him. He wouldn't need to vote himself if I turned up scum, something he apparently thinks I am. Therefore he either doesn't actually think I am scum or is in fact scum himself.

He's refusing your request because it's ridiculous. Voting for yourself is anti-town.

Ugh, I need to reread some stuff (and finish watching the elections). More tomorrow.

Still waiting on this, redtail =(

[DemonHybrid]

Far_Cry, you missed the point.

Why are you too lazy to say something now and not after Admiral's hammer?

[DemonHybrid]

Well, Far_Cry isn't going to say anything else, and he's rather useless at the moment. redtail can give his thoughts tomorrow.

Vote: ThAdmiral

. Expect the spotlight to be on Far Cry's replacement tomorrow if Admiral isn't mafia.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm not setting him up, I have questions to ask him.

[DemonHybrid]

I want to wait for Far_Cry's replacement.

[DemonHybrid]

If that ever happens...

I'm honestly at square 1 with this game, what with saporo dead. This may be MyLo, though I doubt it.

No one else vote Far_Cry until a replacement comes in.

[DemonHybrid]

Derp, I posted that when I was sick. I think we're in LyLo, not MyLo. Apologies.

[DemonHybrid]

UGH.

I think that we COULD be in LyLo, but I doubt it****

I seriously need to think before I post, I have a lot going on lately. Car broken into, lots of work, etc.

Let me compile my thoughts for a second.

[DemonHybrid]

Alright, I think there is two scum total, one scum left. With the very little amount of power roles (Cop AND a miller, maybe a doctor), I really doubt that scum would have more than two scum, giving us a mislynch.

Is it possible that there are 3 scum total, two scum left? Yes, that would make this LyLo. I think that we COULD be in LyLo, but I doubt it. Regardless, a No Lynch would be bad in this stage and we really need to get our game faces on.

Therefore, I'm not voting Far_Cry: I want to hear what his replacement has to say. I'm also a little iffy about redtail, and want to know his thoughts about yesterday.

[DemonHybrid]

*crickets*

[DemonHybrid]

Yep. That's what the flu does to you. I'm all better now, though!

[DemonHybrid]

Felt that needed a visual.

[DemonHybrid]

..hmm.

[DemonHybrid]

Couldn't be. nhammen tunneled way too hard to be singer's partner.

That looked weird, shotty, but I'm not willing to vote you. I had to think about it.

[DemonHybrid]

Honestly, I'm starting to believe it's between redtail and Thor. Something about the end of Day 3 and Far_Cry's weirdness makes me think that scum would be more calculated than to go back and forth like he did and then completely ditch the game.

I still want redtail's thoughts and Far_Cry's replacement's thoughts before I decide on a vote.

[DemonHybrid]

Vote: Redtail

.

I may be jumping the gun here a bit, but I feel much stronger about my scum read on redtail than my uneasiness with shotty. Thor pretty much hit it right on the nose.

Thor: Honestly, I lost my read on Far_Cry. I'm not sure what to make of his laziness and replacing after ThAdmiral flipped.

I'm probably leaning slightly more toward town. Wouldn't you, as mafia, stay in the game if you knew a townie was about to get lynched?

Here's to hoping I'm right.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm thinking, if no one auto-hammers redtail, someone come along and hammer him after some time and a claim. That means:

-Redtail is scum

and/or

-It's not quite LyLo yet

So, time will tell.

[DemonHybrid]

Sure, I'll get one out when I'm through with classes. In a nutshell, he has been really passive on his views, not really quite lurky. And it's been like this this whole game, especially when there's a lot going on with it.

Case to come later.

[DemonHybrid]

As far as nhammen's actions at the end of D1 goes, I think nhammen was being pretty careful and see nothing wrong with him asking for an extension if singer wasn't going to be lynched...maybe he just had a good read. I just find that he focused way too hard on singer in a probable 2-scum game to be the other scum. 1 scum vs 9 townies is intimidating as hell, so keep that in mind.

I think shotty's vote for FC today is shotty being shotty. I'm just going to look past it as a newbie mistake this time after knowing shotty's meta. Besides, he's been making a lot of sense this game; you can tell he's thinking about his actions before doing them for the most part.

redtail is smart enough to know how much information we need at this stage in the game, especially Day 3. You simply cannot active lurk after Day 2 and have it be acceptable, so I think he has something to hide.

[DemonHybrid]

I'd give it a few more hours (until 8ish or so tonight, EST) before I can effectively conclude, at least for myself, that either redtail is scum and/or this is not LyLo. I think we're in good shape.

[DemonHybrid]

...redtail, can you claim, please? You're at L-1.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't believe your case.

As "calculated" as it sounds, you really haven't said a word about Far_Cry's play except for a neutral toned word here and there. Suddenly, because the replacement hasn't been accepted yet (which, you understand, takes time), you're going to create a giant case against him that contains stuff that we all have noted, but dismissed as townie motivation. Where's the new information and thoughts?

Not to mention that I think absolutely no reaction to being voted to L-1 and a reminder to claim doesn't seem genuine.

I think I'm comfortable with your lynch, someone else would have asked a little more about the pressure on them, and I think you're silently sweating it.

[DemonHybrid]

Thor, FC isn't going to be around. You have to be the hammer if you decide on it. Redtail is as good a lynch as any, and the best option here I feel.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, and one more question, redtail: Do you think we're in LyLo atm?

[DemonHybrid]

Thor asked for the full case. Read his response. I'm not going to post it if he knows what I'm going to post, however, I will for you when I have the time later.

You really haven't done much this game but made passing remarks to the occasional townie. Hell, you've voted twice.

My biggest concern would be that, if you were scum, would you be ballsy enough to kill off your partner day 1 and run with just the fact that you're alive? And honestly, I think so; you've been so passive and such a backseat scumhunter this game that I think it fits in with such a situation.

[DemonHybrid]

Passive meaning that you don't call for action, you just comment and then leave.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm aware that everybody knows what I'm saying. I'm collecting it in one place. I'm saying this is why I think FC

is the last scum.

I admit that it's not the strongest case I've ever seen, but it's better than the cases I have/would construct on you, thor, or shotty. That's why my vote rests there.

Sooooo......

...do you think it's not LyLo yet? Or is this a slip?

[DemonHybrid]

I don't think FC's spot will be replaced any time soon, which is why I asked.

[DemonHybrid]

Agreed on that.

Like I said, though, I think that's shotty being shotty. Don't fall for that trap.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, the reason why my case might seem weak is that it's mainly because I view you, shotty and FC as very town.

-I don't see why scum FC would want to replace out when a townie is about to get lynched
-I don't see why scum nhammen would drill singer so hard, shotty's not being consistent with a scum play like that since he's taking a risk with his votes
-You've been very pro-town this whole game with the exception of Day 1.

That leaves red.

[DemonHybrid]

Understood.

[DemonHybrid]

Cool.

Equinox, thoughts plz. Take your time.

[DemonHybrid]

So...

weather's pretty nice...

[DemonHybrid]

@Mod: Prod everybody but Equinox

[DemonHybrid]

Well then, I didn't catch his V/LA. haha

[DemonHybrid]

I missed that too.

So...Canasta while we wait?

Wow, I haven't played Canasta in a few years.

[DemonHybrid]

Understood, try to have something up tonight. Deadline's creeping up.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, and hey shotty, you have no excuse. Post.

[DemonHybrid]

Shotty is town. Thor, join us on the Red wagon please after what Equinox has to say.

Shotty, did you take a smart pill or something? Your play has improved like thricefold.

[DemonHybrid]

ffff

When will something interesting happen

[DemonHybrid]

Fantastic....

Equinox, what's up?

[DemonHybrid]

Thor, shotty's been nothing but town this game. It's rather absurd that you'd suggest he'd fake an illness to get on our good side. I still feel you are very town, but you are misguided.

I see no change in redtail's play in regards to his response to shotty. He reinforces the fact that he felt sure of his cases on both singer AND jimfinn EXCEPT when he's called out, which I find that I do a LOT as scum (I feel like I need to justify every action of mine when playing on the scumside and play my current actions as humble and cool).

I must stress that it's a rather huge mistake to target shotty at this point in time. I'll give you this; it's obvious that we aren't in LyLo. I can promise you that I am what I say I am. You sound not so sure about redtail. Come help me with the redtail lynch and if he flips town I promise you I will give SERIOUS consideration to shotty being scum. To me, everyone's basically obvioustown BUT redtail and we're going to be at a standstill until a major action resolution happens. It will not be a gamebreaker. How likely do you think that 3 scum will be in an 11 person game? Because I'm willing to bet not at all.

[DemonHybrid]

Actually it's his second to last post - his last post pretty much proves how he's lurking in the thread and reading while apparently being too sick to type in a case but not sick enough to field a compliment.

He just off-the-cuff mentioned that he was sick and explaining why he's been iffy on attendance. You're looking way too much into finding reasons for his scumminess. He's not playing up an illness nor faking it, it was just a slight mention of it.

Fair enough on the Friday deadline, but I will not vote shotty today, nor will I think about it, in case you're trying to play towards me in order to get me on his wagon.

[DemonHybrid]

Equinox can make his own decision, methinks.

[DemonHybrid]

Just know, as a basic, that you have a vote decision between shotty and redtail. I'm for a redtail lynch, Thor is for a shotty lynch. Current argument (just so you're up to speed).

[DemonHybrid]

Still here, etc.

At a standstill

[DemonHybrid]

@Thor665 - see how scummy that other guy is? Change your vote!

[DemonHybrid]

Mod: Limited access until Sunday