Mini 1102 - Rivertown Mafia (Game Over!)

[Olinea]

/confirm

[Olinea]

Vote: ThAdmiral

Don't care if I'm a scrub.

Admiral and I played in Newbie 1018. Zorblag pushed his lynch so hard that it's hard to resist voting for him in this game, too.

[Olinea]

Vote: Olinea

because lol RVS

TK is mad 'cause I didn't kill ortiz.

BLAME PARAMA.

[Olinea]

Well, shoot, looks like we didn't need TL to get us out of RVS after all.

Unvote: ThAdmiral

Cyberbob picks out Umbrage and ortiz's self-votes. Both were obvious jokes but Umbrage started it. Cyberbob decides he's gonna vote ortiz anyways, because when you want to stifle that kind of behavior you vote for the person who followed it rather than started it, right?

Vote: Cyberbob

[Olinea]

I need to learn to pre-edit.

[Olinea]

Wtf does that have to do with anything?

You mean what is the relevance of Cyberbob condemning self-voting and then not voting for the person who did it first?

Perhaps we should do it this way.

@Cyberbob: Why ortiz over Umbrage?

[Olinea]

A good number of us (Myself, ortiz1193, TheLonging, ThirdKoopa, sorasgoof, and Nicodemus) all visit ScoreHero, a site devoted to Guitar Hero. diddin also frequents it and asked that a number of us sign up for this game. We recently finished a game together in which ortiz pulled massive scum gambits and won a game which seemed very unlikely for scum to win. I was a Serial Killer and switched a kill on Ortiz the night I died, which is what ortiz's "umad" was about.

I hate answering questions for others, I've been called out on it, but this should bring us all up to speed.

[Olinea]

Hey Ortiz, what's 2 + 2?

I will RAEG at anyone who answers that question for Ortiz. I want his answer.

[Olinea]

Your vote appears somewhat serious. I don't ask rhetorical questions as a means of defense.

[Olinea]

I'm on chamber's side. Not sure what he should be responding to?

For starters, I don't think there is a "side" to this, really.

Mostly I'm looking for confirmation that he understands my reasoning and why it was relevant.

[Olinea]

Anyway, my 'stifling discussion' post spawned more discussion than anything so far, so I'm calling it a success. The scummiest players so far are ThAdmiral and Cyberbob. They come in, vote un-randomly, and disappear. Don't like.

It's been less than a day. At least in this game we have every player posting at LEAST once per day.

I want to see ortiz's next content filled post. This will help me determine numerous questions I have about the game.

I want to see your first.

As for you, el simo, you said you were randomly voting. It's interesting how your "RANDOM" vote happened to follow the bandwagon. To me, it looks like you're trying to jump on the largest bandwagon and further it without too much (read: any) reasoning. How can you even say it was unrelated? It's interesting because it's too much of a coincidence.

You think that el simo tried to push an RVS wagon to completion? lolno.

Cyberbob picks out Umbrage and ortiz's self-votes. Both were obvious jokes but Umbrage started it. Cyberbob decides he's gonna vote ortiz anyways, because when you want to stifle that kind of behavior you vote for the person who followed it rather than started it, right?

I don't give a rat's arse whether they're the funniest jokes in the world. I consider self-voting to be against one's win condition and contrary to the spirit of the game no matter the context. I chose ortiz over Umbrage because I dislike numbers in usernames.

Fair enough. That's using somewhat RVS justification for a vote which wasn't RVS, but alright.

[Olinea]

I'm agreeing with Admiral on this, but I'll wait to see el simo's response. It seems he's trying to backtrack and cover up his "random vote" by questioning the mutual definition of a "random vote".

For the record, the "plox" implies joking/sarcasm.

No, I meant exactly what I said ortiz.

It's "pl0x" for extra emphasis.

Your question makes little sense to me as well.

The "is this question rhetorical, are you asking me, I thought that was the other guy" posts can go. For Pete's sake, we're already on page 3. It's Christmas, people. Relax.

Not liking this post. It's a way of saying "Hey, drop the activity levels, will you?". The "It's Christmas, people. Relax." part is also unnerving as you appear to be one of the more active posters in the game and still tell people to post

less

. There's no pro-town reason to unnecessarily stifle discussion.

[Olinea]

Umbrage, do you have any off-site experience to justify your level of arrogance? Or does it just come naturally?

wtf does that have to do with anything?

When I gave my scum reads, I based those primarily on who was fooling around in the RVS

Really? Because all I could find was this.

BANDWAGON!!!

Vote: Umbrage

Seriously though, Ortiz and chamber are obv scum. Quicklynch plz.

"Fooling around in the RVS" = placing RVS votes on you?

[Olinea]

Do you want to explain that discrepancy or do you want to keep on being subtle and vague?

I believe you tried to make a "random" or jokey vote and you copped heat for it and are now trying to explain your way out of it.

This looks like an admission that the vote was legitimately RVS without any reasoning and now people are attacking el simo for it.

[Olinea]

I believe you tried to make a "random" or jokey vote and you copped heat for it and are now trying to explain your way out of it.

This looks like an admission that the vote was legitimately RVS without any reasoning and now people are attacking el simo for it.

And what conclusions do you draw from that observation?

It makes me think that Admiral is pushing a wagon that he knows is inflated.

I can't think of any scenario where I would lynch someone over a single vote.

[Olinea]

Do you want to explain that discrepancy or do you want to keep on being subtle and vague?

I believe you tried to make a "random" or jokey vote and you copped heat for it and are now trying to explain your way out of it.

This looks like an admission that the vote was legitimately RVS without any reasoning and now people are attacking el simo for it.

If he had admitted straight up it was a joke vote or a vote specifically to push the bandwagon I wouldn't have stayed on his case. He didn't.

Hmmm. Purged the thread until I found an example of it. Page 4 we get this -- bolded part is the important part.:

I agreed with them yes but that is not why I voted him. Sora is right

I was specifically pushing the bandwagon.

And, in between these, another interesting quote, and the only one relevant to his first vote:

Yup my vote was unrelated to the previous two.

Why is this interesting? What are your thoughts on bandwagons that makes this such an interesting occurrence?

Also found this.

As for you, el simo, you said you were randomly voting. It's interesting how your "RANDOM" vote happened to follow the bandwagon. To me, it looks like you're trying to jump on the largest bandwagon and further it without too much (read: any) reasoning. How can you even say it was unrelated? It's interesting because it's too much of a coincidence.

So from this I can assume you think bandwagons are bad?

I know a strawman when I see it. I would ask someone to back me up on this but one game does not a meta make.

Unvote: Cyberbob

Vote: el simo

[Olinea]

Olinea, purge through the thread again. You've only just revived old points that have already been answered.

I revived old points detailing when you made these conflicing statements. ThAdmiral said he'd have backed off had you stated it earlier. I was looking for the first time that you stated it was specifically pushing a bandwagon.

As for the strawman, it's not a strawman. I needed to know what he thinks on bandwagons before I could reply, he still has not given me enough information which is why I am still continuously asking him for it so I can reply to his statement appropriately.

Fair enough. Forgot there wasn't a universal opinion on bandwagons.

Regardless, the conflicting statements earn you my vote for the time being.

[Olinea]

Posting to avoid prod.

Reading Pie's analysis, will respond in a bit.

[Olinea]

Cyberbob is hardcore active lurking. I agree that creating a “VI” account is really not something I, or others, would favor upon since it is an attempt to intentionally ruin others’ games. However, Furcolow’s play hasn’t set off warning signs for me, it’s not VI behavior.

Oh, sorry about my lurking guys. I should note for people who don't know this well that I have a habit of leaving tabs open.

For now, Chamber, mind replying to Olinea? You still have yet to do so after his post replying to you with your vote.

I'm assuming he mentions the tab thing for why someone would see his name in the Little Italy "who is online" forum. So he admits to lurking, then uses a terrible excuse as to why it may have seemed like he was online? AFAIK no one called him out for this. Overly defensive.

TK did this during SHM5. Not the explanation thing, but the “leaving tabs open” thing.

Going to sleep soon and will try to get a reply in the morning but could we have a Vote total count right now by any chance?

I'd like to see so we don't end up hammering someone. It already feels like we've gone through so much in one day as Olinea said.

The second sentence of this just seems fake. "So we don't end up hammering someone." It's like he's trying to appear town, but not in the way that town wants to appear town. The last sentence just gives me a bad vibe - it seems hollow; doesn't have any substance. Am I the only one getting a weird vibe from this post?

Agreed that worrying about someone trying a quickhammer gambit that early in the game is a bit nonsensical.

Not seeing a full case on TK. There’s just not enough substance to go off of yet.

Oh, never mind, I just found this.

So we don't end up hammering someone

without a claim

Then he reference’s Shadow’s hammer in SHM5. The difference there is that EPM was an outed Neighbor and he had already trollclaimed Mafia Roleblocker. This does seem like a very eager attempt to end the day. Almost indicates that TK doesn’t care what someone claims as long as it’s made.

This whole group thing and the huge posts seem like very over the top ways of trying to make yourself look town, Pie.

You haven't explained what you find wrong with it. This is a baseless accusation.

1. This is supposed to be a civil game. I don't give a shit about swearing, but ad hominem attacks and slurs have no place here. (I'm looking at you, Furcolow.) I don't want to see the word 'retard' or any deviation of it. It is both offensive and low-class.

Hmmm.

hi

Either play this game or replace out, you useless waste of space.

3. IP makes good points. I'm still leaning towards Thirdkoopa being VI town, but I definitely have to read his ISO and the points made against him more thoroughly.

I have seen TK’s town play and it is anything but VI behavior.

However, this behavior doesn’t quite match TK’s play in our last game. I’m not ready to start playing by meta yet (Maybe some other day) but I will keep a closer eye on him.

[Olinea]

Cyberbob's really not a big threat, agreed, but I'm a firm believer of "Don't let people coast" and Cyberbob's trying to pull it.

@InflatablePie:
Let's put it this way. Say you suddenly recieved a daykill and you can either shoot TK or soras. Who do you shoot, and why?

[Olinea]

The thing about soras' case is that I've found that

one

reaction is not often indicative of alignment, as is with the case of TK. OMGUS as a reaction to pressure is a natural thing, I think -- over-the-top OMGUS, no, but from a Town standpoint, it's difficult to look at someone pressuring you and building a case on you and go "Yep, that dude's town". I mean, his reaction was pretty mild, too.

Uh, Pie? You're changing your vote from someone you say you are 100% positive is scum to someone who is just a suspicion? What is wrong with this picture?

I guess you could also include this other part, but that’s not so much OMGUS as it is AtE.

I can't say I felt this game was going to go any differently than any other. One look at the games on my wiki will show you that EVERY DAMN DAY 1 people turn absolutely fucking stupidly idiotic and latch on to me for no good reasons, then the town follows along. It's cool. I guess you could say my Day 1 meta is to do what I'm going to do, and draw out the scum.

The reactions to the soras wagon include ThAdmiral (Against it, he voted you), Ortiz (Wishy-washy on the matter), el simo (Gave “scumpoints” to soras but didn’t vote or FoS), Furcolow (FoS’ed soras, no vote), and myself – I’m against it. I don’t think that the general reactions to the soras vote would garner the daykill in this scenario.

Let’s look at Umbrage’s case on sorasgoof.

Those two last posts by him are a) wagoning the current target and b) leaving a back door open in case the tide turns.

We’ll look at A first. Umbrage’s stance is anti-wagon. Noted. Not a bad thing, I’m just waiting on him to trip up on it.

Maybe I should be voting you for phrasing the above to make me look scummy.

Spreading suspicion without commitment to a wagon. This can be taken as a willingness to vote me or a simple joke, depending on how everyone reacts.

A wagon’s something you “commit” to now.

That was fast.

Now for B.

I wasn't worried about that, as evidenced by the way I treated it as a joke.

Observe how he uses a conveniently placed backdoor to excuse his actions.

Okay.

@all: No more joking/sarcasm/rhetoric stuff. It only gets confusing in the end.

Why did you pick me and chamber but not mention el simo?

Umbrage, this was never answered.

Are these the scum reads you referred to in post 109?

Is the vote in question chamber’s vote? Soras’ reaction:

el simo makes perfect sense. A 'random' vote is never random. He's giving more meaning to the made up way we use it than I normally do but its within reason. Easy wagon is too easy.

Unvote vote Sorasgoof

for a bad 4th vote.

I really hope this isn't serious. You're using the fact that I was the fourth on the wagon as a reason for voting me, with no other reasoning? Awwwwesome.

If it were serious, you'd have pointed out the others who also do not see the reasoning behind his "random" vote.

I’m looking at the very first sentence as evidence that he didn’t have too many concerns about it.

Not willing to put a vote on sorasgoof right now. Pie’s hunting appears to be town-driven rather than “Hey, let’s wagon someone without many votes, because people would expect scum to wagon people with a lot of votes”, so I can’t say I’d put it on him, either.

[Olinea]

Apologies for the lack of activity in this game, I'm trying to pick it up. It's winter break and all that, yada yada ya.

^^good vote.

You support the vote.

I've had a bad feeling about Soras for a while.

You think Soras is slightly scummy. Note that "a bad feeling" is pretty ambiguous.

^^good vote.

I'm content with my Umbrage vote at the moment, but TK is pretty scummy and I've had a bad feeling about Soras for a while. I'm really confident at least one of those 3 is scum. I'm gonna reread the 3 of them because I think I might prefer one of the other two lynches over Umbrage. Also, not sure what to think of CB. I get the scummiest vibe ever from him but I don't know if he's actually scum or if it's just his playstyle.

Note: Pie is not playing his scum meta at all. He could've changed, but I'm pretty convinced he's town at this point. I have a pretty good idea of what his scum meta is because I pretty much based mine off of it >_> (and I stalk his games).

No vote, FoS, anything.

That's what I mean by wishy-washy.

Someone asked me what my scumreads were. I think

Umbrage

is playing a bit aggressively in a bad sort of way, he appears "no-nonsense" at a glance but he appears much too lynch-happy to me. He pairs Furcolow and el simo together so much that they might as well be joined at the hip in his mind (For the record, I recall reading that simo-Furcolow game, though I don't remember much about it except Furcolow claimed Cop D1 and made a big fuss) My read on him shifts slightly but for a large part of the game he's rubbed me the wrong way.

Ortiz

is playing a bit mildly, this may be paranoia on the fact that I got burned pretty bad by him in our last game, but it doesn't fit what I saw coming from him in SHMWT. As a possible third I'd be inclined to choose

Furcolow

but this is mainly based on the fact that it appeared he tried to cover up his activity drought by posting a lot of snippets. Also, which is of note, Umbrage disapproved of me and chamber posting snippets earlier on but he appears to have no problem with Furcolow doing so.

[Olinea]

Oh, hey, is my vote still on el simo? Just in case,

Unvote
Vote: Umbrage

[Olinea]

Also, which is of note, Umbrage disapproved of me and chamber posting snippets earlier on but he appears to have no problem with Furcolow doing so.

With Furcolow, it's far more obvious

That he's posting snippets? What do you mean by this? I don't think that it's difficult to tell if it's a snippet or not just based on who's posting it.

and he's a new player

Judging by join date, unless I haven't kept too close of a track, you and I are the two newest members on this site, not to mention that Furcolow claims to be an alt. I wouldn't expect many new players to create an actual and a "VI alt" when they sign up.

He's already taking a lot of flak.

From you.

Why would you feel the need to remark that the sky is blue?

Confused by this. Is "Umbrage scorning chamber/Olinea but being okay with Furcolow" equivalent to "The sky is blue"? Because you appear to be asserting that the sky is

not

blue.

[Olinea]

Um.

Wow.

Given the proximity to the deadline and soras' refusal to give us reads, I would be willing to vote for him unless he has any more game-related words to say. I hadn't found much wrong with his play before this argument but we've been stalled long enough.

I've got simo as town, Admiral as town, Pie as town, Fugi as town, Umbrage is still spiking my scumdar, and Cyberbob's next post will probably just be plucking out the word "scumdar" and adding a "lmao". The rest are neutral as far as I can tell.

If soras (or Umbrage, not too late to lynch someone who's actually scummy) isn't lynched by later tonight I'll add my vote to the leading wagon. My vote remains on Umbrage for the time being.

[Olinea]

I still don't like Olinea's play. He rarely posts and avoids all major wagons when he does. I mentioned this earlier but I'm pretty sure I got no responses from anyone on the matter.

Is there anything you want me to comment on? I realize the activity could be better but I think anything major that's happened I've given my views on it.

Which major wagons have I avoided? I've had soras pegged as town for a while and nothing else major jumps to mind.

[Olinea]

I still don't like Olinea's play. He rarely posts and avoids all major wagons when he does. I mentioned this earlier but I'm pretty sure I got no responses from anyone on the matter.

Is there anything you want me to comment on? I realize the activity could be better but I think anything major that's happened I've given my views on it.

Which major wagons have I avoided? I've had soras pegged as town for a while and nothing else major jumps to mind.

Nothing specific. The problem is you play exactly like I used to as scum. You post in a really protown style and then avoid voting for the people who are under suspicion to avoid voting for a mislynch, which makes you look more town. For example, we had like 4 scum candidates at one point that everyone's attention was on, you posted and called Soras town and then voted Umbrage (who wasn't suspicious at the time.) It's just a style I'm familiar with and it makes you seem likely scum to me.

Also I can't help but think I'm influenced by you playing so similarly and flipping SK in our last game.

Just post more frequently, that should solve the problem. >_>

Do you have names of these wagons I avoided?

Also, about the SK thing, I'd think that my SK play is similar to my Town play since in both cases I don't actually have any extra information and the scumhunting is more... actual. I wish I could show you my Mafia meta but, alas, I have none.

Will post more frequently. I think since I'm on break, that's a large part of it, my activity in SHM5 was mostly due to the fact that I didn't have a ton of freedom being in school and all.

Should I get reads of everyone, or what? With a week left I think I might as well.

[Olinea]

I formally retract my claim,

and welcome all investigation attempts

.

What do you mean by this, Furcolow?

Surely any rational townie would rather have a Cop investigate someone who was scum.

[Olinea]

Mmmmkay, with the number of people replacing in I want to try an exercise I thought of today. I haven’t been too involved in the game due to not a lot of arguments taking place around me, and as such my incentive to read has been a bit… low. So I’m going to give my point of view via a recap of the entire thread, pointing out things which I thought were significant and giving my views. This may be helpful to any replacees as well as explain my thoughts on the game thus far.

If anyone wants to do this as well, good on ya.

Confirmation phase happens. RVS goes on until Umbrage jokes about how he doesn’t RVS and how it’s scummy and how it’s scummy to point out how it’s scummy. The notable vote on Umbrage is el simo’s.

I agree.

On a completely unrelated note I think I'll randomly Vote: Umbrage.

Umbrage self-votes and Ortiz does as well. Cyberbob votes for Ortiz, I ask him about it, and we get snippets between me and chamber as to the relevance of my question until Umbrage tells us that the snippets are distracting. ThAdmiral brings up el simo’s supposedly “random” vote and calls Umbrage out for “mudslinging”.

Anyway, my 'stifling discussion' post spawned more discussion than anything so far, so I'm calling it a success. The scummiest players so far are ThAdmiral and Cyberbob. They come in, vote un-randomly, and disappear. Don't like.

Olinea and chamber have to stop the posting diarrhea. A long and confusing game helps scum. Don't post unless you have something to say. Always have something to say.

This entire post is basically mudslinging.
I "disappeared" apparently, even though the game has been going for less than a day?
Olinea and chamber are posting diarrhea?
Seriously?

Vote: umbrage

el simo, however, is the main point of discussion for a while. Ortiz agrees with ThAdmiral. Admiral pushes the case on el simo, who appears to defend himself by saying the vote was on a bandwagon to create discussion. Umbrage votes for el simo. El simo says:

The vote was random, the target wasn't.

Cyberbob admits to active lurking. I also notice a fair amount of mudslinging coming from him. Sorasgoof puts a vote on el simo and chamber votes Sorasgoof for being 4th on the wagon, claiming el simo’s reasoning is valid. Oriz drops the el simo case, Umbrage and Admiral continue to push it.

Furcolow drops in to make his first post on page 7.

hi

Umbrage calls him a “useless waste of space” causing a warning.

Furcolow proceeds to vote for Ortiz before reading, claiming ties to el simo via an old Newbie game. He validates el simo’s points before educating himself. Furcolow discusses the old Newbie game in which el simo reportedly defended Furcolow who made a big fuss by claiming Cop D1 which led to el simo’s death N1. chamber calls Umbrage’s pressure “transparently scum driven”. Furcolow makes a long series of posts which noticeable target ThAdmiral as scum and defend el simo as town. The series of posts cause diddin to tell Furcolow to stop spamming, leading to this.

ive done that on my alt
i dont do that on this
this is my VI account
get over it

This post causes a bit of confusion for some and is ignored by others.

Umbrage, after noticing Furcolow has put ThAdmiral and himself on Furcolow’s scum list, pushes the lynch of Furcolow

and

el simo. He calls Furcolow a “piece of shit” in response to the “VI account” statement for another warning. TK returns and votes for Umbrage.

InflatablePie replaces Nicodemus.

Yeah well check his record, he hasn't got away with it.

Good. I intend not to let him start.

And I'll

vote: Cyberbob

for evoking stupid anti town policy lynches.

sorry but having someone deliberately posting like a retard is one of the worst things for the town lol if you don't see why

This post of Cyberbob’s slipped under the radar but HELLO HYPOCRISY.

Umbrage restarts the el simo case, but this is quickly squelched as InflatablePie makes his first post and brings up a new target: ThirdKoopa. He tells everyone to ISO ThirdKoopa but nobody sees the case on him.

Pie: Go ahead and give us the case on why TK is scum. I see his lack of pro-town vibes, but I didn't see anything that screams scum in the ISO.

Yeah I struggle with the idea of a Koopa lynch.

Furcolow makes a post which el simo cites as evidence that Furcolow is not actually a VI. Cyberbob is unconvinced and still wants to policy lynch Furcolow until Cyberbob and el simo get into an argument about who’s been on the site longer and all that jazz. Interrupted by InflatablePie and his case on ThirdKoopa. Calls TK defensive in the beginning of the game, then trying to appear town, then fencesitting, then bandwagoning. None of these arguments are fully developed and all appear to be isolated incidents. Sorasgoof says InflatablePie is also trying to appear town. Pie doesn’t care and says the Umbrage bandwagon is a horrible one.

This is through the bottom of Page 12, will continue later but I’m at a friend’s house so I can’t really finish this ISO without being extremely rude.

[Olinea]

Does anyone with meta on Olinea know if they are active as scum?

Never been Mafia.

On the subject of meta, Umbrage's Newbie game is over, so I guess it can be used as reference. He was a Cop who replaced in D1 and was killed N1 (Though I suspect perhaps due to his replace-ee's Cop softclaim) and his play mostly resembles his play in here except:
a) In his Newbie game, boberz played an extremely aggressive game which Umbrage clearly took offense to.
b) Umbrage's play in this game is much more aggressive.

Not good with meta but it looks like this Newbie game matches Umbrage's town play.
Newbie 1039

[Olinea]

although when zdenek flips if he is scum ill have my eye on him for defending him

Umbrage has been my biggest scumread for nearly the entire game.

I have no idea where you're getting this from.

Also I'm sigging that champion quote after the game.

[Olinea]

This post of Cyberbob’s slipped under the radar but HELLO HYPOCRISY.

this would be true if I was posting like a retard (which I'm not)

How do you explain your play thus far into the game, then? I would be genuinely surprised if even one player besides yourself wasn't displeased every time you posted something in this game.

[Olinea]

Can someone remind me of the case on Ortiz? He hasn't done anything noticeably scummy, at least not to me. I hadn't considered him as a lynch candidate today.

[Olinea]

For the record, I'd be willing to go through a lynch on Zdenek (due to Umbrage's play) or even Cyberbob. Furcolow has dropped a bit down the scum list since his play has been notably more town (and not due to the "champion" comment)

[Olinea]

Question to Furcolow.

I took a read through Newbie 1002 in which you and el simo played together. It appears to me that el simo took almost no initiative in defending your D1 Cop claim and you clung to the Cop claim as evidence of the fact that you were confirmed town despite the chance of a Goon-Goon-Doc-6 VTs setup which would mean no Cop Counterclaim. Yet you claim that simo helped you out in that game.

the fact you died in that newbie game was like *facepalm* for me, because you were the only person who really was actively defending the fact that I was a detective. I was really, really upset about it because in extended mafia games I have only been a detective 3-4 times, and every single time something happens that severely messes with me. In that newbie game it was an early wagon. Hell, I believe it was even you that was like OMG HE'S AT L-2 or something similar when I was really at L-3 or L-4 which I found scummily motivated. For some reason, though, I ended up not taking your buddying to be town and I trusted you wholeheartedly. I felt like we had a nice brolliance like ReaperCharlie tries to create in certain games.

Yet, from Newbie 1002,

A cop claim is very easy to produce and very easy to cover. "A didn't get an investigation last night I was role blocked," or "Maddie is a townsman." I've claimed cop as scum before and we won the game because of it.

Maddie you state his claim makes no sense, but he is trying to lynch players because of poor grammar. He has consistently made no sense this in entire thread, why does his bogus cop claim any different?

I'm incredibly against the idea of a policy lynch, but I do believe we have found our scum, either that or an unbelievably inept townsman. He is not the cop.

Furcolow
Playing much more aggressively than he has in his other games, using probably much worse logic too. Had a really bad claim and has been incredibly bigoted, how ever his play has been improving as of lately. I really want to lynch him (because I do think he is scummy) but I'd much rather give him time to prove his claim.

Of course, later on we get this:

I'm not saying that he is a townie, or the cop or even scum, because at this point it is too hard to say. He's claimed cop and he deserves a chance to prove his claim. I'm not asking to keep him in the game and not lynch at all, but rather just to postpone it until we have more information.

But that’s not so much “defending” as it is “dropping the case on Furcolow”.

Also, of note, your posting style is in very frequent snippets as it is now, although I would attribute that to the fact that you were under extreme pressure. I have no idea how you play scum, and perhaps that’s a posting style that isn’t variable based on alignment.

So:
Why do you say el simo defended you in that game and you had a good partnership when he criticized you and called you scummy for a much larger portion of the game than the period where he ignored you (note that I couldn’t find any point in which he decisively gives a town read on you)?

[Olinea]

That comment is mostly irrelevant.

I'm glad he inspired you to play better, but I'd like to know how you can justify that statement where you say he defended your Cop claim. It appears he didn't believe you for one second.

[Olinea]

Why was he killed?

Likely due to the fact that he was:

a) an IC
b) acting quite town
c) not claimed, and scum knew there was a Doc out there

I realize I wasn't there.

[Olinea]

I found Furcolow's immediate buddying to el simo when he first posted in this game to be highly unusual, so I did some investigating.

I'm waiting on el simo's response to this to confirm whether he considers Furcolow's statement that simo defended the Cop claim as valid or not. I recently got burned by a nasty scum member who hardcore buddied up to me like a barnacle and rode me to MyLo before disposing of me. It's made me more cautious of buddying in general and Furcolow's inherent disposition to defend el simo strikes me as a possible preparation for buddying.

[Olinea]

Simo, point out where I called you scummy and tried to push your wagon.

This case was against Furcolow, not you. I don't view getting buddied as a scumtell.

[Olinea]

Scum tried to push my wagon based on my relationship with Furcolow, he is doing the same thing just based on Furcolows relationship with me, it's two sides of the same coin.

And it wasn't an over reaction, I didn't vote him or call him scum or OMGUS or anything, I just saw something and made a note of it.

I didn't push anyone's wagon. I thought Furcolow's early play seemed like preemptive buddying and it was more of a "heads up, did you catch this?".

That being said, I recognize why you think that, since in that game Furcolow took a lot of heat and you claim to have helped him out, and now after you took heat for the "random vote" incident Furcolow's returning the favor.

@Furcolow:
Unrelated to this, why do you say you would be willing to lynch Baby Spice "on policy"? Didn't Baby Spice replace chamber, a strong town read of yours?

[Olinea]

"heads up, did you catch this?".

Right, that way others can take it and run with out you getting too involved, yeah?

Pretty sure this is the most involved I've gotten in a case thus far into the game.

Commentary is welcome but I don't see Furcolow taking a liking to you as grounds to push a lynch on

either

of you. Your reaction, similar to Soras and TK, would comprise a large part of any case I could see on you. I hadn't even considered you as today's lynch, nor do I now.

[Olinea]

Olinea, I think you misread Furcolow's post.

The one about policy, or the one about el simo?

I realize that Furcolow said he wouldn't want to push a lynch on Baby Spice, but the "policy" thing really stuck out. Now I know it's more of an inside joke or something.

[Olinea]

After a TK ISO, I can't see a case on TK without some sort of meta thing, and even then TK was a Vengeful Townie and apparently tried to get lynched, but was a strong town read for me in that game. I see a bit more AtE in his posting, and I can see why the activity level thing exists (I thought I was pretty active in SHM5, and here I'm not being as prolific as I try to be) due to holiday constraints but he hasn't said anything overly scummy to me. I'm willing to hammer on Friday afternoon/evening if nobody else is willing in order to avoid a No Lynch, though.

[Olinea]

Hmm.

Cyberbob's flip is the most astonishing to me. Not so much the town flip, but the fact that he died at all. Both kills on fairly scummy players? I can't see anyone consciously deciding to clear out a Cyberbob red herring so I would think he died protecting someone.

Zdenek's still at the top of my list due to "Scumbrage" (I like that almost as much as Umb

RAGE

) and his play. With the lack of Cyberbob as a read I really need to shift my thoughts since the rest of the players in this list didn't strike me as scummy. I still maintain my town read on ThAdmiral since I really like his scumhunting and chamber's play plus Baby Spice's play makes that spot town. I'd like to say there's one scum in Fugi/Pie and between ortiz/el simo/Furcolow I would place it as

el simo

,

ortiz

,

Furcolow

. Simo's attack on me for checking out Furcolow's play towards the end of D1 was nothing short of suspicious, Ortiz blends in well and isn't too transparent about his play, and Furcolow seemed to get more town as D1 progressed further and further.

I also would think it's 2 scum, 1 SK but I haven't ruled out the possibility of a vig fire. This is my first experience with a Mini Normal and so I don't know whether it would be more likely to have 3 scum + SK or 2 scum + SK. I've never played in a game with a vig before but if I understand my Mafia theory vigs should try and hold their fire until later if they're one-shot.

However, my number one scum read is still alive, and so,

Vote: Zdenek

[Olinea]

Hmm. Seeing as how I'd chalk that Soras kill up to Pie's shot, I'd rule out the possibility of an SK right now (Also due to the lack of "stab" flavor).

Thoughts on people later.

[Olinea]

ortiz1193

Gah, where do we start with this one? Ortiz is, well, unreadable -- and I don't like that. He blends in a lot, while he hasn't been out going RRRRAUGH I'M TOWN YOU'RE SCUM, I feel that a good amount of pressure on him has been consistent in that most who suspect him don't waver, but there hasn't been a big enough case to justify trying to lynch him. I think Cyberbob tried it after the deadline, and tried to rally a few, but for the most part nothing. There's just nothing here that makes me think "Town", I guess.

el simo

After ThAdmiral's scum flip, Admiral's early pressure on el simo for his RVS vote would make me lean towards Town el simo. Due to Admiral's Goon status I'd think there has to be some sort of Roleblocker (as is the norm in Mafia games) and MAYBE Godfather just due to its frequency. I have a hard time believing Admiral would push a case that soon on a fellow scumbuddy, especially if they were a scum PR. Early events can dictate reads for the entire game and I think it'd be a bit reckless to put that much pressure on a scumbuddy in the first couple of pages. Simo's play doesn't strike me as overtly scummy here.

Furcolow

Early on, seemed like a pretty good red herring. Lately he's been able to make thorough arguments and hasn't come under a large amount of scrutiny. Even when he's not under pressure he makes sure he's contributing which I think is highly useful and earns a good amount of town credit in my eyes. I think the idea that he was buddying to el simo was mostly my own paranoia working against me -- some players you just like. Furcolow's looking Town to me, which is a far cry from my earlier suspicion of him.

Zdenek

I cannot shake off Umbrage's play and how oddly aggressive it was compared to what I'd read in Newbie 1039. Full of holes, highly volatile, and alays under scrutiny. When Zdenek replaced in I thought this spot might look better but I haven't noticed much to make me think the spot is any more Town. I'd rather not throw my vote on Zdenek right now since I'd rather not have another 3-page day but this spot just... ugh.

Baby Spice

Ahh. Chamber's reasoning and arguments were noticeably pro-town in the early stages of the game, and then Baby Spice comes in and does nothing to change that impression. Town read here.

Fugitive

No idea what to think of this. Originally I thought one of Fugi/Pie but I think that was mostly me trying to

appear

experienced. Got a Town read on him early on (I know most everybody does) and I haven't seen anything that makes me want to change that. Usually I find out that my scumreads are always Town and the scum are who I least suspect but it appears ThAdmiral takes that spot so this leaves me the tiniest bit more confident in town Fugi. Not going to abandon any moderate reads in favor of him.



I'd like to call an Ortiz/Zdenek team at this point, but I'd like to hear thoughts.

[Olinea]

OLINEA

THAT'S ME

Anyway, Olinea, why did your read of Ortiz change?

Mostly due to Admiral's scum flip which made me question my thoughts on el simo and the fact that I've got Town reads on others.

[Olinea]

Zdenek's at L-1.

Claim. That spot's my number one scum read and I'm willing to hammer.

[Olinea]

Massclaim today. I'd be willing to bet a good sum of money there are 2 scum left.

Is there an order we could go through, or should we do it popcorn style?

[Olinea]

Actually, you know what? I’ll kick it off.

Claim: Town Gunsmith

To be honest, I have no idea how I’m still alive. My post on D3 detailing my reads was my biggest slip ever and I spent 3 days convinced I would die. I posted about a

Godfather

which, after looking at a few Mini Normal setups, seems like a guess that none other than a PR would make.

Night 1 I investigated

Cyberbob

due to his astoundingly unreadable (but mostly anti-town, not so much

scummy

) play. I was under the impression that no Mafia member would kill Cyberbob due to the fact that a lynch could be made on him so easily. Well, you all saw his flip – diddin was nice enough to tell me that Cyberbob had no gun, but fat lot of good that’s doing us now.

During the day I flip-flopped on the possibility of SK vs. Vigilante. I figured since Serial Killers generally work with knives then it’d be a way for an SK to remain investigation-immune (Unlike a certain SK I knew =_=). Of course, the lack of stabbing flavor should have tipped me off in the first place, plus the fact that a lack of a Vigilante would dampen the thing that differs a Gunsmith from a regular Cop.

Night 2 I investigated

Fugitive

as he, too, was unreadable. He’s an aggressive sort of player as Town, I don’t know much about scum Fugitive but knowing him as a notoriously good player as both scum and Town I figured it’d settle any sort of doubts I had about him. Fugitive returned with no gun, and I crumbed it in my list.

Fugitive

N

o idea what to think of this.

O

riginally I thought one of Fugi/Pie but I think that was mostly me trying to

appear

experienced.

G

ot a Town read on him early on (I know most everybody does) and I haven't seen anything that makes me want to change that.

U

sually I find out that my scumreads are always Town and the scum are who I least suspect but it appears ThAdmiral takes that spot so this leaves me the tiniest bit more confident in town Fugi.

N

ot going to abandon any moderate reads in favor of him.

For those of you playing at home, that spells N-O G-U-N.

I thought Fugitive MIGHT be a Godfather, hence my statement being ambiguous enough to suggest that I would actually consider lynching him, but today I learned that Godfathers return “no result” from Gunsmiths so at this point I’d consider Fugitive clear from my point of view unless he’s some sort of insane Serial Killer who didn’t kill anyone for three nights.

After my list that pretty much SCREAMED Power Role (at least I thought so), I figured I was likely dying, but I investigated

Baby Spice

as I was sold on Ortiz but I just couldn’t bring myself to think of a scum Furcolow in this game. I got no result, so I think I was blocked last night.

Right now Ortiz is my number one read. I think his metas completely contrast mine. I think I doubt myself a LOT as Town and when I’m scum (only in short little games, not actual forum games, so I don’t know how accurate I am on this) I push WAY hard on people and try to act like a Town leader. Ortiz seems to be very self-deprecating when he’s scum, stuff like “Geez I can’t believe I was wrong” or lots of those smiley faces that go :/ (I noticed quite a few of them in SHM5) but when I read SHMWT where he was a Doctor he appeared to take a very pro-town stance, almost as a leader, trying to get everyone involved and active. In that regard, while meta has always failed me in the past, I think I’ve got a successful meta argument here (inb4 meta is useless, I get it) and I can go re-read him except all of my ISOs on players I find scummy just turn into tunnel vision walls.

PREVIEW EDIT: Diddin’s PM to me was delayed. Baby Spice has no gun so at this point I’m almost sold on an Ortiz/Furcolow scumteam. I'd still like everyone else to claim but this is what I've got and I'd like to get this on the table since I don't think I'll be doing anything but Chemistry and Physics for the remainder of the night.

[Olinea]

well, i'm not scum, so there goes that idea.
also, i was under the impression gunsmith GIVES GUNS.

A Gunsmith checks one person per night and gets a result of "gun" or "no gun". Obviously, Mafia members will show up as "gun", but to my knowledge Cops and Vigilantes also come up "gun" so even if you get a guilty result it's not set in stone you just investigated scum.

You're thinking of the Epicmafia Gunsmith.

[Olinea]

For someone who claims to be Town you sure are loose with your vote in what appears to be LyLo, Furcolow.

[Olinea]

i just dont see how they could both be innocent to you
makes no sense to me

I do.

Because it's you and Ortiz.

Also I remember seeing that Godfathers return "no result" on Gunsmith investigations so I'd think that point is moot. I can try to double-check after lab today.

[Olinea]

I'm not loose with my vote

You voted Baby Spice, unvoted hastily, then voted for me. Within the span of a page. In LyLo.

your investigation results are shit

They very well could be, hence my hesitation to place a vote right now. That and I'd like to see Ortiz weigh in on the matter.

i know im town

I don't.

there should be two scum

Likely so.

you've pinpointed 2 innos making me and ortiz scum?

5 people - 1 Olinea - 2 people without guns = 2, yes.

im not fucking scum

Which is reiterating "I'm town".

therefore, either you're not town

My role PM says otherwise.

or you lost it for the town

I haven't voted.

so i can blame someone else

You can blame whoever decided not to kill me.

end of story, BRO.

I had nothing witty to say so I guess I'll point out that I like the "bro" there.



I'm hesitant to simply throw my vote on either you or Ortiz because of the fact that the only person I have as confirmed Town to myself is... myself. As such I don't know if there's PR stuff going on that could have tampered with my results. I don't know if you're flailing scum or Town trying who genuinely believes I'm scum. I'm going to go research a bit and find out how Gunsmiths interact with Godfathers and come back.

[Olinea]

It's funny. I always lose games as Town when I'm lynched. My Town wins are ones where I get nightkilled or survive to endgame.

Damn Godfathers.

I think my scumhunting abilities saw a good rise in this game, even if ThAdmiral did bamboozle me I pegged Ortiz (with the "inno" on Fugitive, mind you) as scum and used interactions to clear el simo to me. I'm also glad I was seen as mostly transparently town, it's what I try to do. I was genuinely surprised I had survived for that long and I was starting to suspect I had been kept alive due to reading the wrong people in the wrong way. Meh.

I think I wouldn't mind being a VT for the rest of my Mafia career.

Good game to everyone involved, I really enjoyed it.

[Olinea]

I'm a bit shocked that I and Olinea were lynched when Ortiz was an option, but oh well.

I think Furcolow's vote had a decent bit of merit, being that I "was in everyone's town books" for the entire game and had still survived to D4, claimed a rather obscure investigative role which would mean likely no counterclaims, and really didn't tell him at any point to take his vote off of me in LyLo. It was a snap decision, I agree, and if I could go back 24 hours I would've told him that lynching Ortiz would be a better option, but I guess I can use this endgame to show people what happens if you're too liberal with your vote in LyLo.

You were lynched because of Umbrage, and really nothing else, I think.