Newbie 1046: Game Over

[Haylen]

Hi, guys. Welcome to MafiaScum! And possibly your first game here. My name's Haylen, I will answer to any variation of that. I'm your IC (Inexperienced Challenged player...political correctness and all that) and it's my job to show you the ropes and to make sure you understand what is going on. You can ask me any questions you have during the game, unless it is about your role, in which case you must send a PM with your question to Glados (the mod), neither of us bite so don't feel you can't approach us about things. I completely understand that your first game may be a daunting experience...hell, I remember my first game, ended up getting night killed on Night One, and most of you will be in the same boat regarding experience level but you're all here to learn. If you feel as though you haven't done well, don't be put out, just learn from it and improve. It is not cool to insult players for poor logic, anyone caught doing so will receive a post specially made for them in which I barate you...in a kind way. Don't take attacks on your logic personally, or lynches. They happen, that's what Mafia is all about.

Aswell as being a helper here, I am also a player in the game, even though this is a newbie game, I will not be toning down my play, I'll be treating it like a game from any of the other forums otherwise you wont be able to learn and grow as players. Just because I'm the an IC, it doesn't mean you can't attack my logic. I will NEVER lie in my answers when questions asked about game mechanics ect. That would completely defeat the purpose of my being an IC here. If I don't answer your questions quick enough, which is extremely unlikely, I believe the SE's are Deer and Chkflip which means they are Semi Experienced players and may also be able to help - there roles arent teaching roles, though.

Anyway, read the rules Glados has decided to use (warning: other mods may decide to use different variations of these rules, but the fundamentals are all the same,so don't get confused). When this game is over, and you're all excited about joining games in other forums, ask yourselves if you truly feel ready for it...there's nothing worse than going into a mini normal game (or any other non road to rome game, for that matter) and realising halfway through it that you aren't ready.

And have fun!!!

(by the way, I will be taking notes all through the game, because I have OCD, so I will be able to tell you what was good, what went wrong and how to improve, when the game has ended.)

Back to player mode

Big warning: I like to multipost, meaning I will post more than once in a row. Usually because I have just remembered something I wanted to say in the post before but forgot. I will spare you my megaposts, no player should ever have to deal with them. Also, my grammar is generally terrible because I have a running conversation in my head and I write literally what my head is saying.

First thing's first.

How we vote and unvote: Glados says in his rules that we have to bold votes and unvotes. This is how we do that:

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[b] Vote: playername [/b] or [b] Unvote: playername [/b]

Another important part of the game is quoting, you will find that you want to quote another player and some point or another. We do that like this:

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[quote="playername"] what they said [/quote]

A little bit more complicated is putting in a link to another post as it requires multiple steps, you might want to use this sometimes when refering to the whole of a post, rather than quoting the whole thing. Here you go:

1) In the post you want to link, click on the little white symbol to the left of the word 'Posted' at the top of the post.
2) Once you have done this, copy and paste the url from your internet's address bar.
3) you will need to do this:

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[url=pasted url from address bar]post number (you can use any word here, but I dont want to be confusing)[/url]

An example of that this. Here is a link to post 1 .

That was a link to Reck post 0, it has all the rules in it, and as a code, looked like this:

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[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2704135#p2704135]post 1[/url]

(Yes, the fact I just linked you to the rules post again was not a coincidence. Seriously, read them. Ignorance is never an excuse.

Hope that last one wasn't too confusing, if it was just ask

Anyway, enjoy yourselves!

~Hayl~

PS. I want your opinions on me as a teacher after this is over. I need to know I'm teaching stuff in the right fashion.

[Haylen]

Haylens Mafia Glossary

L-1, L-2, L-3: This refers to how many votes on a person until they are lynched. For example, if I had 3 votes and Michel had 4 votes, because it is 5 votes to lynch, I would be at L-2 and Michel would be at L-1.

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Lylo: Means lynch or lose. During lylo if the town doesn't lynch a mafia member, then they have automatically lost. Typical lylo situations are 2 townies and 1 scum or 3 townies and 2 scum. If the number of mafia is equal to the number of town at any time, then the mafia have won.

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Mylo: Mislynch and lose: This is actually a more difficult one to explain. Mylo is where the only thing the town can do safely is to no lynch. You should only ever lynch in a mylo situation when a cop has gotten a guilty on another player. Examples of mylo situations are when there are 3 town and 1 mafia or 6 town and 2 mafia. If the town mislynches during mylo then it is an automatic mafia victory, UNLESS the town get lucky and the have a doc in the game that targets the same person the mafia want to kill.

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OMGUS: Stands for 'Oh my gosh, you suck'. It's a type of vote where the voter only votes for who they voted for because they had voted for them first. I tend to stretch the term to people who attack other people because they attacked them first. Everybody suffers from a bit of OMGUS Syndrome, we can't really help but feel the person who is voting for us is scum. A lot of people find this type of votes scummy, but I don't believe they are.

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WIFOM: Wine in front of me, it's basically circular logic. An example of WIFOM would be me telling you lot to go and look at my previous games because I never play like this as town. WIFOM or Circular logic arguments don't hold very much credibility in games.

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FoS: Finger of Suspicion, you can give people one of these in place of a vote if you don't find them scummy enough to vote them but you still find them suspicious. A more suspicious person would warrant a HoS or Hand of Suspicion.

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IGMEOY: I've got my eye on you, generally means they don't find the person scummy but they are going to watch them carefully in the future to make sure they don't do anything scummy then.

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Hammer: The word for the last vote on a player that causes a lynch. Today that would be the 5th vote.

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QFT: Quote for truth. If you want to be lazy and not type something out yourself and someone else has already written it, just quote their post and type 'QFT' under it.

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EBWOP: Edit By Way of Post. Quoting your previous post and changing it because you made a coding error or something.

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RVS: The Random Voting Stage. That's what we're doing now! It's an icebreaker, votes during this stage arent serious.

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Appeal to Emotion: When a player says or does something in order to play with the other players emotions in order to not be lynched. An example: 'If you lynch me, the town will lose.' Scumminess on this varies from player to player.

[Haylen]

To Iso

- This is useful for reading a player on their own, it allows you to see their thought processes and how much of their posts are REALLY content.
At the bottom of the page it says display posts from previous, in the middle dropdown box choose the player and press go and you'll have all of their posts and only their posts.

To watch the topic

- To stop yourself losing it regularly like me.
I think the closest to this now is the bookmark feature. Underneath the login/logout option at the top of the page on the right hand side is a tick with 'bookmarks' next to it. To view pages you've bookmarked and to find out if any other posts have been made in those threads, simply click on 'bookmarks'. You can bookmark a thread by going to the little toolbar at the bottom of this screen and click 'bookmark this thread'. This thread will then appear when you click the bookmark thing I mentioned above.

The wiki

- That thing I edit sometimes.
The wiki is like that deceptive friend who tries to manipulate you into doing what it wants and ends up getting you into trouble. A lot of the information on their is outdated, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't still be read. Link to the wiki is underneath 'watched topics'. A group of people are trying to update the wiki with proper info - some of it is right, the rest isnt.

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Hi Wheninrome, you know me as 'Rena' on IRC

[Haylen]

There are very strong ethical guidelines IC's follow with regards to deception. An IC-scum would not lie about the definition of buddying, for example, but they could lie about whether or not somebody was buddying. As I said, don't be afraid to attack me (secretly, I enjoy it.)

You forgot the main thing, WIR :< HAVE FUN! You must enjoy yourself aswell, it's compulsory in my games. ^_^

Also. NEVER call me 'he' or use male pronouns >=(

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Vote WhenInRome

for being undecided over my gender.

Can you all answer these please!

1. Is there any time coming up where we can expect you to not be very active?

I'm v/la at the Weekends but I will pop my head in.

2. Have you familiarized yourself with Mafia Discussion and the Wiki?
3. Have you read at least one completed game on site?
4. What is your experience level? How many games have you played? Are there any complete newbies in the house? Does everyone know how the game in general works.

NOTE: I do not encourage random questioning about game theory because I've seen it be devastating for town before. (I should know, I was the scum asking the questions! >.<)

[Haylen]

PS. Anyone without an Avatar get one please. Or at least something that resembles an avatar. It helps differentiate between people.

[Haylen]

You do know me But I can't remember where from. We've either played a newbie game together, or I've modded for you.

Note: It's StefanB's birthday today so I don't really expect him to post much. Happy birthday!

[Haylen]

My own questions/comments:

5. Timezone: I live in GMT +1 (Europe), where do you live.
6. Okay Haylen is female (know that), our mod too. Please if you don't have that in at last your profile say it here.
7. What we have to be careful of in the rules. If we have no majority in the the deadline we will have a no lynch, something town in most cases doesn't want.
8. Okay, that's personal me. English isn't my first language, so mistakes and some interesting grammarconstructions are posible, sorry. If I am not understandeble, (should not happen often, at last not with English being the reason) I will try it again. It shouldn't be a problem, and we play mafia, so talking about something is normal.

Scummy reads at the moment not so much, but the game just started and normaly I need at last a little bit to start, also posted enough for today.

I live in GMT time at the moment, in a few months it should be moved to GMT+1. I'm from England, specifically Bournemouth and Southampton (I travel at the weekends and am exhausted after work which is why I'm V/la on Saturday and Sunday.)

The only time I advocate no lynching is during mylo in this game it will be when there is 4 players left (if we have lynched one scum) or when there are 6 players (if we haven't lynched any scum) left. Because if we mislynch, the mafia will kill and we will lose. I'm trying to tell you all everything before I die >.<

CST is apparently GMT-6

[Haylen]

More often than not, I do make it to endgame - sometimes because I'm scum, more recently because I've started replacing into games that are almost over. However, it is uncertain as to what is going to happen in a game thus we have to prepare for every circumstance. If the town loses because I'm dead and couldn't tell you something such as the whole mylo thing I was talking about then I will believe it's my fault we've lost.

Analysing scumkills does lead to massive amounts of WIFOM, it's not something that should be condoned. By that I mean thinking about who had motives to kill who and why the scum killed who they did because more often than not, you're going to be wrong and it just distracts from useful discussion.

[Haylen]

Stefan: How did you know I'm difficult to catch as scum?

Awesomepoe: Why did you place a vote on someone who already had one in the RVS?

Wheninrome: Do you believe Deer's motives for confirming last were scummy? \

Note:

If we have any town power roles, DO NOT out yourselves early and try not to get yourself lynched. -_-

[Haylen]

Incorrect, it says in the mafia's role PM's in the mods post that scum are allowed to talk during confirmations aswell.

[Haylen]

I thought I was on to something for a bit with WIR, but someone then gave away what I was going to ask next by revealing Deer hadn't taken any less time than anybody else to confirm. I think my line of thinking here is pretty easy to prove.

If Haylen IS town, that is just drawing attention to him and possibly getting him killed. If he's scum, it's just drawing attention to himself. Either way, it makes no sense.

It makes no sense as either alignment, thus what I said is a total nulltell. It is indicative of nothing but my personality.

Everything else seems a bit confusing for me at the moment, but that's probably because it's 1.40am. Everything's confusing at 1.40am. It would probably be wise for me to not post my reads until I'm more awake tomorrow and can read again - when you're sleepy, you miss things.

[Haylen]

Just to let you know I'm in the middle of replying and giving my reads.

[Haylen]

Sorry, I was in hospital yesterday and didn't realise I'd be in there for as long as I was. My apologies. As a warning, I have another appointment on the 31st Jan.

AwesomePoe

Not much wrong with his first post. He answers all the questions I asked. But then he votes for Deer for being the last to confirm despite Deer taking roughly the same time as everybody else to confirm. Despite this being an RVS vote, it still makes me a bit wary and will be something that I take note of for reference later in the game. There is also the small matter of this quote:

He has already given me such a scummy void, his post are like black darkness bottoming out under the universe.

Which I would like explaining before giving an opinion on.

I am not sure why he decided to try and apply pressure to Deer of all people. As an SE, Deer would know that just having two votes on him means nothing, two votes are nothing to worry about at this stage in the game its when there is more that there becomes a problem. The link between AP and Deer has been noted though.

Nothing else to really comment on here. Basically, I need a bit more to work with in order to gain a town or scum read.

chkflip

First post is fine.
Oh hey, it was c.flip who gave away the ending of what I was getting at with regards to Deer being the last to confirm :< Oh well. I'll be sure to let people know next time if there's something I only want the person I ask to answer or comment on

I feel that his comment on AP is strawmanning:

- Nothing strikes me as particularly odd until your second post in the game. It's not really the fact that you more or less contradict yourself in the post (because I fully grasp the concept) but moreso the persnickety attitude you have in it.

I'm not seeing any of this in the post that AP made, however, if I am wrong, I would like you to point it out to me.

I don't necessarily see tunnelling as a scumtell, although this with regards to AP is something that I would be willing to look into in the future as it is too early to tell right now.

I agree with the rest of that post though and don't see anything wrong with it. However, I would like to point out that it is pretty useless trying to find scumpairs at this stage in the game - I mention this because C.Flip asks who Hurri's second scum pick is. Although it is useful knowing who people are willing to lynch, it's a bad idea to try and pair them with other people.

I wouldn't be willing to lynch C.Flip at the present time. He is neutral, leaning town to me.

Ghostlin

His questions with regards to my 'dying' comment rub me up the wrong way a bit. It seems like he is trying to gouge whether scum should kill me during the night, especially since he admits that he asks for his own purposes.

Also, a quick tip I've learned in the four or so games I've played here: unless you're being asked directly what you think someone's motivations are, do not offer free information on their behalf. It makes you seem buddying, which makes you seem scummy.

This looks like he is coaching his scumbuddy. The last sentence is ok, advising somebody not to do something because it looks scummy is not. This is something that I'm going to take a note of for later in case one of you gets lynched or nightkilled because it could be evidence that there is a link between the two of them. Can I ask if you both know each other outside of the game?

However, you in essence believe that since I said it's really Haylen's job to press for an answer for a question she asked (for the reasons I elaborated on) that I believe only the IC should be the one scumhunting.

I think that might be a language or internet barrier. I too believed until I read this for the fourth time that you thought I should only be the one scumhunting.

I agree with his don't sheep the IC point.

IC Hat: "You can't unvote the hammer in newbie games. " You can't unvote after the hammer in ANY game. However, it is wise to discuss during twilight. If a townie is lynched, they need to get their reads out ASAP, if a PR dies, they need to tell us their targets and results. If mafia die, it would be really useful if they would tell us their buddies

Oh, and Ghostlin's number one mafia rule of things that annoy Ghostlin: do not ever argue, 'well, that's stupid, town/scum would never play that way.'

To add to this. Everybody plays differently, we all have a 'meta', how we play each alignment. Players can become aware of their metas and change it to suit their town meta under every alignment - however, an important thing to remember is that nobody can fully change their meta, there are always very subtle tells - usually, there's a specific tell that a player can't change no matter how hard they try.

I currently have a neutral leaning scum read on Ghostlin. Wouldn't mind lynching him if I was forced to choose somebody to lynch at this time in the game.

Hurristat

I definately need more to work with if I am to get a read of Hurri.

I do not understand why he felt the need to ask if WIR is at L-2 in his second post and then not follow it up with a comment or anything. Why would you vote for WIR just so you can talk more and get an idea of who is suspicious and who to lynch? Are you saying that you would normally join a bandwagon? I don't know, maybe I'm just misunderstanding the purpose of this third post. It is good that you decided not to vote WIR when he had that many votes, but I don't feel there is a need to say that you would have voted for him.

WhenInRome

First post is something to put away in the notes file for reference later. The comment about Deer being the last to confirm, specifically. But I think we have exhausted that line of discussion at the present time so I am not going to continue it. This can be redacted due to his sixth iso post.

His second post is fluff.

Post number 9: I'm a girl, seriously, stop calling me a dude.

hurri: Not enough posts to read.

BTW, I'm a he.

Hypocrit >_> Now YOU know how it feels.

I don't really have much to comment on with regards to WIR, this is probably because I've already said what I wanted to say to him with regards to his posts. :/

Conclusion: Neutral read, I'm not seeing anything that stands out as being town-like or scum-like.

StefanB

Reading through his posts, I can't see anything that particularly bothers me until this:

I also don't like his we should keep informations to ourself.

So am I correct in believing that you want us to keep certain information to ourselves? If so what type of information?

This is one of those things that I would prefer people who are not Stefan to not comment on.

I notice that he posted a link to mastin's insane tells page but doesn't provide any information as to why that is relevant. Can you please explain?

I agree with his sixth iso post.

I get the feeling that Stefan is focusing way two much on people who aren't posting. Stefan, do you know the difference between lurking and active lurking?

Other people don't answer this please.

'm also frustrated because I think as one of the most experienced players she could help a lot if she was more active.

The fact that he says this just after voting me does not make sense.

Read on Stefan is on hold.[/area]

I have to move to a different room now cause I'm at Uni, will post my other two analysis when I get home.

[Haylen]

Unless you're a PR, a townie doesn't have much to fear about dying this early in the game because wagons provide information. I've heard this statement said a lot of times in a lot of different ways through reads of different games.

It's not something that I feared as a player, it's what I fear as an IC. I know that in a lot of games, the mafia like to off the IC early in the game regardless of how that particular person is playing and purely due to their level of experience. If I get NK'd, the newbies don't have an experienced player to teach them and anybody who has read much about me on the site would know that I genuinely care about the teaching experience newbies have on site and just care about them in general - that post Chkflip mentioned earlier in the 'haylen style intro thread' is proof of that.

I had two motives. Meta and to find out whether everybody knew about the basics of mafia like stuff about day and night and twilight. Meta was my secondary motive.

[Haylen]

Good posting from Stefan. I personally consider active lurking to be scummy because the person could post content but doesnt, for example, posting elsewhere on site or posting fluff in the game. Lurking would be more anti-game than anti-town because they're just completely inactive.

You're right, I forgot to unvote.

Unvote

[Haylen]

I read that more of a warning than coaching. It's difficult to explain, almost as though he was accusing WIR.

[Haylen]

I will do 'The Missing Analysis' on Monday, I could get it done tomorrow at a big push but I know I'm gonna be working then studying all round the clock tomorrow - I'm not even sure if I'll have time to sleep...

To give you a bit of an update on what I have been reading.
Stefan is my strongest town read at the moment - we WILL NOT be lynching him today unless he claims scum.
Unfortunately, the majority of people here at the present time are neutral reads, I would be comfortable in lynching none of you. It's annoying but that's the way some games go, especially on Day One.

[Haylen]

Umm...leading the town is not a scumtell. You need to try and find a persons intent aswell, my intent was that we didn't lynch my strongest town read and other peoples strongest town read cause I'm pretty sure he's flip town of some description. What's scummy about not wanting a probable townie lynched?

[Haylen]

Regarding inactivity, as I said I was recovering from flu, spent a load of time in hospital, then I had to do my assignment. I've also been completely deaf in one ear for 3 weeks - should see the doc about that.

I should have also mentioned beforehand, I occassionally make emotional and strong statements due to being a writer, I actually talk like that irl.

I too think WhenInRome was being quite opportunisic with his sudden voting for me and strawmanning a trivial subject. This is going to earn him a re-read from me and I have decided I currently wish to place my vote there as I don't have any other leads.

Vote WhenInRome

Nikitakit

Haylen's statement stands out a little because it takes a certain personality to say that kind of thing casually.

What kind of personality? You're saying stuff and not following it up -_-

Ghostlin:

#1 is misinterpreting my vote, which is still from RVS.

OMGUS attack. Not scummy but something worth keeping an eye on - more for credibility of reads than anything else.

Hee says that WIR is his top suspect, but then does not follow this up with a vote. That's called fencesitting and is scummy because it could allow him to later say that he posted suspicions on WIR being scum and getting away with it without arousing suspicion.

FoS Nikita

Not much else to comment on. Neutral leaning scum read on Nikita.

And the third installment with a Deer analysis coming tomorrow!

Ghostlin: Was that a Freudian slip? :O Do you and WhenInRome plan on getting me lynched?

[Haylen]

I meant Hurristat, not ghostlin.

[Haylen]

It doesn't make sense that mafia would no kill at this stage in the game, unless they missed the deadline which I highly doubt would happen. Thus I'm pretty sure we have a doc - doc, don't claim your action, it means yourself and they person you protected are clear! And we can't afford to lose you both.

Btw, NEVER SELF-HAMMER AS TOWN! EVER! If you don't want to play the game, just replace out.

Off to work now.

[Haylen]

Haylen: Did you realise that your vote for WIR was the L-1? If you did, why did you do this at the time? You FOSed Nikitakit, any other strong suspects at the moment?

I did know he was L-1. I voted him to add a bit more pressure. I wasn't exactly expecting him to self-hammer. As I saw it, people seemed to be finding Nikita/Hurristat scummier at the time and I suspected that the wagon on WheninRome would deminish and return sometime during the week leading up to deadline if necessary.

With 8 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch, btw.

Vote Nikitakit

for now.

[Haylen]

Sorry for my absense, had an awful day involving a serious asthma attack (which we didn't know I have), several doctors visits and getting used to using inhalers. Trust me, I would have much rather had been posting here. Will do so properly tomorrow.

[Haylen]

I did find WhenInRome suspicious, however, I would have liked to have gained more talk and information prior to him having hammered himself.

In iso16 she says she would not be comfortable to lynch anyone. Yet she puts WIR at L-1 in next after next post.

I have to ask you, when you looked at this, did you check the amount of time between what I said between saying I'm not comfortable lynching someone and then putting WIR at L-1? That was 4 days. In those 4 days, WIR had opportunistically jumped on me and started attacking me, and strawmanning, things that would result in a vote from me.

[Haylen]

Yes. you seem to be forgetting that I didn't believe he would self-hammer. It wasn't OMGUS. Just because you were attacked by somebody they vote you, then you have valid reasons for voting that person, it doesn't mean it's OMGUS. Not if the reasons can be validated, which they can be. If I'm not going on about the Nikit thing now, then I've accepted his answer

[Haylen]

What about asking why Stefan doesn't want to vote for Hurristat?

Awesome Poe is really dipping down on my town list right into where my scummy people usually sit :< I think the case against me with regards to the self-hammering of WIR was made using poor logic that lacks town motive and was very opportunistic. I will certainly look into your case against him, further, Stefan.

Hurristat, do you have any reasoning for your placings? Btw, I don't advocate listing town reads, which is why I wont be doing mine any further than necessary in the game.

[Haylen]

Heeey, catching alts and statistics exams take up more time than one would think. I think Zach is scum.

Unvote, Vote Zach.

Your AtE (apeal to emmotion) is noticed.

I disagree, there was no AtE in the quote you made from Hurri.

Any questions for me, ask them. My last stats exam is tomorrow. Bewarned, you're going to get a very long analysis post sometime tomorrow afternoon. Now I'm gonna go and revised for this stupid exam when the intranet has died.

[Haylen]

Chkflip

He didn't really post that much, however, I do not see that as a scumtell because I recently replaced him in a game I'm modding.

I like both Deer and Haylen's defense/etc thus far, but it could change with the course of the game.

Fencesitting = scummy because it allows the person to change their views on a person over and over without arousing suspicion. Especially since he specifically chose those defences and did not mention any future actions myself or Deer may do. ie. I don't find their defences scummy...ten days later...actually, I find the defences quite scummy now.

His third post bothers me, the views he gave. Reading back at it, you should see that the majority of it is Information Instead of Analysis, which is anti-town because it allows to scum to look as though they are posting content when in fact they are not.

Zachrulez

I think Zach is scum primarily due to meta. We know each other pretty well and he claims to know scum-hayl inside out (I think he's actually only seen me play 1 other town game) and thus he would know when I'm scum and when I am not. In this game, however, he comes in and pretty much straight of the bat tells everybody I'm scum: now he may know how I play as scum, but it also works the other way round; I know when he's scum. Which makes me dangerous to him. He is finding me scummy in a reaching manner - saying that I'm scum because I put someone at L-1 as I didn't believe he would be hammered, this is why I didn't think he would be hammered:

* Stefan voted for Kit a page before I voted for WIR for lurking.
* Ghostlin was pushing Kit was answers and I could see a vote coming from it.
* Deer voices the opinion that he wanted Kit to by lynched
* Quote from Hurristat: "6) Nikitakit -- Keeps promising things he doesn't deliver. Actively lurks etc. This is where the mafia-ish-ness start"
* I too, voiced suspicions on Kit.
* Stefan gives Deer a chance to persuade him to vote for Nik in post

That's 3 out of 4 of the players voting for WIR at that time. Ghostlin, Deer and StefanB were the most influencial people in the game on day one and thus I could have seen them leading a lynch on Kit. Kit is also one of the leading wagons today which shows that my predictions as to people switching to Kit during Day One definately had strong potential of occuring

With regards to Nocmen, I am confused because I obviously had a scum read on Kit and yet I have a fairly town read on him. I guess I should keep a look out. At this point, what concerns me most about Hurristat was the doc-fishing at the beginning of the day, I don't see a problem with the rest of his current play.

At this moment in time, I am inclined to believe that AP is more likely to be town than scum, I can't really see a newbie-scum analysing vote counts throughout Day One in order to try and trap people. Hmm just noticed him mention a difference in Hurri's play, I'm going to look into that a bit more tomorrow - if it's there, I'm probably not likely to notice it at this time in the morning.

I like Ghostlin's play today, no problems.

My stance on StefanB has wavered slightly, but not enough for me to consider him to be any less town that I believe him to be. I mention the misrepping of Hurristat in saying he was appealing to emotion when he clearly wasn't, as the primary reason for this.

[Haylen]

Quotes please. I can't find what you're talking about.

[Haylen]

Haylen: What the ....?

(a)

Thats all? Zach did question you, were did he say that you are scum?

(b)

That's pretty much in OMGOS theretory, (even stronger because Zach wasn't votting for you) and puh thats all.

(c)

And sorry meta is somethink that I know much as newbie but someones meta of you is so strong that he comes in a game and knows imidiatly your role? Thats somethink I have difficulties to believe.

(a)

Zach at least implied that I was scummy, if not say it directly.

Haylen was trying to claim that she expected the bandwagon to die after her (L-1) vote because people seemed to be finding Nik/hurristat scummier. Clearly, this wasn't the case. Her reasoning for expecting the bandwagon to die is/was flawed.

(b)

It's not OMGUS, I put out my reasons for voting him. If those reasons are justified then it isn't OMGUS. OMGUS is where you believe somebody is scum because they voted for you or attacked, without having any other reasons.

(c)

Zach obviously read the thread and then posted his thoughts, obviously he didn't just come into the thread and immediately lie comment on finding me suspicious because of my logic. In fact, he's fencesitting because he never actually says whether I'm scummy or not, he just implies it.

Also you have been lurking, and while lurking you have been paying attention to other games while ignoring this one

You mean the ones I'm modding? And I've been as active in this game as I have in your game. So this is wrong.

I can see how part of the first quotation about awesome poe could be doc-fishing, however, don't understand how the second part is - it seems to me like he is just talking about the doc.

Haylen: I know your life's been busy, which is completely understandable, but you were fairly inactive even before your life got hectic. What level of activity should we expect?

I become more active as a game goes on. I find the first few days of a game difficult because of the amount of people you need to keep tabs on.

[Haylen]

Btw, just for info guys. It's really poor form to lynch somebody whilst they're V/LA, it's one of those few things that make me yell in a game.

As previously stated, I could get behind a Hurristat lynch or a Zach lynch, which reminds me that I need to go back and answer some questions about Zach, I think. Don't I.

[Haylen]

Hi, I'm in a lot of pain right now. Best not to ask.

Anyone else find Zach's vote opportunistic? He's the leading wagon and votes for the second highest one.

Haylen you think that AP is not scum, why? (Yes I'm repeating Ghostlin's question, I asked the same think but a lot more complicated, so I take the easy version)

As i've said, I've never seen newbie scum take the time and effort to do a full vote count analysis followed by graphs and if I'm reading him correctly, most of what's been said about him seems to be genuine mistakes he's made.

1) Are you convinced that the meta argument really holds water? Maybe you changed your meta just a touch between the last games you played with him, or he's forgotten what the meta was. How relevant do you consider meta to be in this game?

2) Why do you think AP is town?

3) If it was 24 hours before deadline, who would you lynch: AP or hurristat AND -why-?

1) Yep, I find meta to be extremely important in games, probably because my favourite topic in psychology is Individual Differences. Impossible, there have been games where I have failed to change my meta and totally failed. The failproof way to find out my alignment is to see if I genuinely believe what I'm arguing. If I do, then I'm town. That's an observation by a player who knows me extremely well and has seen samples of my play over the past 2 years. I consider meta to be important if the person has played enough games (enough to qualify as an IC), otherwise I don't advocate it's usage.
2) See above.
3) I would lynch Hurristat if it was close to deadline because I still believe AP is town and I'm not going to vote to lynch somebody I'm as sure as I am right now is town. I agree with the points brought up about Hurristat combine with the above and thats why I'd be more inclined to deadline lynch her.

[Haylen]

I'm seeing both of the last PBPA's as very IIOA'y (information instead of analysis-y). Neither of them give an opinion on each post which is what a PBPA is supposed to be. What Ghostlin and Stefan just did was look like they were generating lots of content when they actually weren't (i say this more about Ghostlin than about Stefan)

[Haylen]

Hmm. I'm not willing to hammer Poe based on what he's being accused of. Although I do find it not cool that he disappeared 3 days before deadline, he's due a prod cause THE NICE NEW ACTIVITY OVERVIEW SAYS HE DOES!!! SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE <3

[Haylen]

I should have said I would be willing to deadline-hammer though since the town needs all the info they can get.

[Haylen]

I would also like to hear more from NS, even if it's only an "I am at page ..." post.

Haylen: I didn't try to make new content. I just wanted to give an overview on AwesomePoes play, what has he done what are the most important thinks on his play, what is the case against him...
I thought since he is one of the lynchkandidates my post could help people who are not sure or are NS to see what was important of his play.
AwesomePoe vanishing is nothing new.
Also:

THE NICE NEW ACTIVITY OVERVIEW SAYS HE DOES!!!

Were is that from?

That's fine, you're a newbie, I'm not going to attack you for not being able to make a perfect PBPA. I could see what you were attempting to do, it was more Ghostlin I was commenting on.

Goo to the bottom of the page, you see the links to different page numbers, under that there should be link saying 'Activity Overview', Me and Zach can definately see it (they're on every page) but I'm not sure if anyone without modding permissions can. :/

[Haylen]

Reasons?

[Haylen]

Since this needs to be done. And trust me, I don't like it.

Unvote, Vote AwesomePoe

We needed a lynch, deadline is in 3 hrs for me and I don't know if anyone's coming back.

[Haylen]

I hammered because I thought it was deadline, it didn't look like anybody was going to be coming online who would be able hammer.

Haylen: usually ICs in these games are able to separate themselves from the pack and be viewed as town, even if they're mafia...

Not always. IC's aren't mythical creatures whom are great at every role and know everything in the book. I have a perfect SK record, a near perfect scum record but my town record is lower than 40%. I came to the site expecting to be good at everything and I'm not.

I still think Zach's scum. But no lynch is the correct play right now.

[Haylen]

Love you three, Zach

[Haylen]

We're no lynching, Stefan.

[Haylen]

If I was scum and wanted to end day early to stop Nobody Special from giving his views, I would have killed him during the night. Thus the only explanation is that I was telling the truth when I said I forgot we had an extension.

[Haylen]

Nocman is giving me funny vibes. :/

[Haylen]

Just to let you know I'm doing a reread. It's not good to have such weak opinions on so many players in the game at this stage

[Haylen]

Haylen: Somethink doesn't add up. You said that learning if you have scum-Haylen or town-Haylen is easy, so why do you win so often as scum?

To be honest, I haven't got a clue

[Haylen]

Is Zach a player in this game or the mod? If he's a player ask him about my meta, he knows it well enough. I presume it's something to do with being able to talk yourself out of 99% of situations as scum and barely any as town.

[Haylen]

I'm currently ICing two games. Zachs modding one and playing in another. And my memory is shit.

[Haylen]

And I get confused very easily; I called my partner by my name yesterday. Twice.

[Haylen]

Well, I vote Zach goes first. >_> Yes, I'm being delibrately difficult. Again.

[Haylen]

*sigh*

I'm Vanilly.

[Haylen]

Zach next.

[Haylen]

So. The scum must be players whom claimed early in case they were counterclaimed.

*looks pointedly at Zach*

[Haylen]

that was a fail of a mass claim:
Okay, cop, you really should claim, so that way we can clear people. at this point we need to get a mafia, and if we don't lynch one the game's over. so losing the cop next night or losing the game.... i think I'd rather lose the cop, no offense to the cop.

Hurristat, only scum would know if we have a cop right now. Since they have prior information about the setup. I personally believe that we don't since anybody would have claimed cop by name.

The order is important as it stops the scummy people coming up with a fakeclaim when everyone else has claimed. The person who has been counterclaimed is always lynched, hence why a scum who claimed early couldn't come up with a fakeclaim. Thus why it Nobody Special is pretty much confirmed town to be atm.

[Haylen]

Interesting. No quickhammer.

[Haylen]

Well, me, Hurristat and Nocman can't be scum together.

[Haylen]

That's called WIFOM. And we all know what the setup is now, since nobody has claimed PR.

[Haylen]

OMG, IT'S FREAKY PLAYING A NEWBIE GAME WITH THIS AVATAR. /offtopic.

[Haylen]

I was trying to take into account all of the possible setups when I wrote that.

[Haylen]

I'm pretty sure me and Zach aren't scum together. Zach probably is, I'm not.

I'm coming round to seeing a NS scum at the moment. Purely because he's telling me I should post content, when he hasn't really posted much himself.

Going to re-read Nikitakit and Hurristat.

[Haylen]

Nocmen's hallucinating. I can't see any case made my NS.

[Haylen]

V/LA for about a day. People stressing me out.

[Haylen]

I'd really like to see NS's cases on Zach and Haylen.

I skipped 'to see' when reading this.

[Haylen]

FYI, I'm doing a PBPA that should be done soon. You all post so much -_-

[Haylen]

No really. I've been getting confused between games because Zach was modding the other game I was ICing and was then participating in this one.

Haylen's a better scumhunter than that.

Are you sure you've been playing with me?

I'd like to contest the rest of that sentence by saying, In all of my town games on site, I've only been successful in leading a lynch on two people: camn in Ladies Mafia and Zach ages ago in that game he really wants to forget xD I almost caused scum lynches on VRK and Flay in two other games but they didn't work out very well.

Haylen votes zach with absolutely no explanation AT ALL. According to the previous votecount there were no votes on zach. No one between the votecount and Haylen's vote voted for zach. Why begin a wagon with absolutely no explanation?

A little thing called reaction hunting. And because I would have thought by now that Zach would know me well enough as a player to recognise that I'm town.

There doesn't seem to be an option for Haylen living until endgame because she's town. To be honest, I've played with her in a few Newbies but I can't recall her alignment.

I'm a Lurkie McLurker and an easy get out clause in lylo. Tbf, all of my absenses can be proven by going at looking at my other games, the v/la and lurking times correspond with each other.

Hmmm. Freudian slip?

No. General question. I find players who research their possible future opponants to be quite resourceful and interesting. It told me a lot about him, even better if he explained where he got the information.

Why? Because she's scum, and she wouldn't push for lynching herself or her scumpal, zach.

You've just made your whole two cases redundant.
You say that me and Zach are scum, but in the quote above you say I wouldn't push for a lynch on my scumbuddy and yet I've been pushing for his lynch for 2 days. Showing that you don't really believe we're scum together.

That's what scum do -- they kill the Towniest players so they have someone else to cast suspicion on in the remaining days. And no, scumHaylen wouldn't kill me, because, even on Day Three, I looked, if not scummy, at least anti-Town.

No NS. If I was scum, random people would have died as part of my perfectly laid plans. Recently finished newbie game Read that, Zach modded the game so he'll probably remember exactly what happened there. A summary of what happened:
1) I spotted the Cop's breadcrumb on Day One.
2) My scumbuddy got lynched Day One.
3) Killed the scummiest looking player to waste a cop investigation Night One.
4) Killed the cop night two to make it look like a newbie had been using their gut.
5) My plan worked out, that newbie got lynched.
6) Hayl-scum wins.

What did she say about this? Hmmm. First, she's not willing to hammer AwesomePoe. A full minute later, she says she would deadline-hammer.

Your point being? Deadline hammers are forced hammers, the player doesn't necessarily need to want the lynchee to be lynched.

Except, wait -- even though she said the deadline was three hours away, she conveniently 'forgot' that GLaDOS had granted an extension.

Again, your point? Any player could make that mistake. I don't notice deadline extensions unless the exact new date and time is posted.

She wins so often as scum BECAUSE SHE'S VERY GOOD AT IT.

*shrugs* think what you will. Personally, I think it's down to the skill of my partner rather than my own.

How do you rate your town skills, NS?

Why did you say "pretty sure"?

That is the point when I began doubting myself. I've had a logic scum read on Zach for a while, but then I started getting a gut scum read on you. And I tend to listen to my gut more in lylo than at any other time in the game.

I'm going to go and look at who was inactive night one.

[Haylen]

Vote Zach

Chkflip disappeared on page 6 Day One and wasnt replaced until after Day Two began. Pretty much confirmed scum there. I know Chkflip wasn't around because he needed replacing in my game aswell.

[Haylen]

Nikitakit was the most likely scum after that as she requested replacement right after night. However, it was enough after night that she could have missed it. Deer posted night two and was prodded later thus showing he was around and could have sent in the kill if he was scum. Scum wouldn't have risked not killing that night to try and frame it on somebody else, thus they must be people who WERENT ACTUALLY HERE.

[Haylen]

Yeah, I change my mind. Logic over rules gut. NS isn't scum.

[Haylen]

ooooops. I thought we had a Cop, not a Doc.

Unvote

[Haylen]

Um. Wait. I've been going on about a doc not claiming since we massclaimed and nobodies corrected me? ~.~ You're all scum just for that!

[Haylen]

Ah. K. I was expecting something Doc related rather than Cop related if something power role like did come up. Cause I thought Ghostlin was cop, fair play. Doc and Cop are easy words to confuse.

[Haylen]

No, seriously, you need to lynch Zach today. He's made it look like he's distancing me, the difference is, i genuinely believe he's scum and he knows im town.

[Haylen]

Vote Zach.

I'm going to yell at Zach if I'm wrong.

[Haylen]

*crosses fingers*

[Haylen]

If we've lost can the scum come and tell me quick cause I really want to know before bed.

If not, they can tell me we've lynched one too! Then we know who we're looking at tomorrow.

[Haylen]

Hahahahahaha Oh Zach, you should have realised by now you'd be obv scum to me. You've been scum in all of our games together except one.

[Haylen]

I was right with my theory that the replacements were both mafia Good game though.

[Haylen]

@ NS - Playing as town really isn't my strong point. It's my weak point. I barely look like a townie, but I am very good as pretending to look like a townie :/ Interestingly, this was one of my first town games where I didn't lurk out of choice.

@ Stefan - Just tell me how great I am and stuff ^_^ Nah, Lol, I need to learn what I'm doing wrong too. I got confused between this game and Zach's last modded newbie game where I was scum, and kept thinking I was scum in this game, it all got very confusing. I'm not playing more than one game at once anymore.