Mini 1108 - Mutiny on the High Seas - Game Over

[AurorusVox]

Yarr, I

Vote: Liar

to walk the plank.

Lynch all liars, yarr.

[AurorusVox]

^Now that's a wagon I can get along with

Vote: The rum

[AurorusVox]

Unvote

Vote: The rum

(L-4)

[AurorusVox]

Ahoy, the first non-RV. Arr.

[AurorusVox]

See, I's tinks it'll be more 'elpful to da scum, dan da town. While we're WIFOMin' as ta whether da names mean anytin, da scum'll go fer who looks ta be a PR.

^Arr, weren't ye for the Massclaim earlier today? Now it be helpful to scum more than town? What changed yer mind so quickly?

Unvote

Vote: Umbrage

to walk the plank.

(Also, yarr, maybe you can make the pirate language a bit easier to read. At the moment its a little difficult to understand. Yarr.)

As for massclaim, arr...well I don't be thinkin' it'll help anyone much. I don't really see the harm in it, and Chess is right that if we nameclaim later scum will see flips so its fifty-fifty. We could hope there's a rolename CC but if PranaGames aren't having names related to role, then I don't see why scum would need to fakeclaim in the first place.

Also I be forwardin the motion that instead of "Finger of Suspicion", people should use "Hook of Suspicion"

[AurorusVox]

Umbrage: ye were basin' whether ye supported the massclaim or not on the players who were for or against it, rather than considering what ye yerself thought? Take some responsibility for yer answer, you scurvy sea dog. Do you think its a good idea, regardless of what anyone else be sayin?

Chess: Ahoy! I like me Umbrage vote fer now.

[AurorusVox]

Umbrage: I am voting you because you don't want to give an opinion about massclaim at a relatively early point in the game, which looks to be hyperdefensive. You say you wanted to discuss it, but the fact is you didn't discuss it (the benefits or otherwise) until I pushed you to do so. I don't like how you've tried to say Chess OMGUS'd either, when he actually said he thought you were town (and it was only later that he revoked it to a null read)

"Oh look at how scummy this what he did is!" no, I'll look at what you've done that's scummy thanks. I don't like your reaction to the vote so far, so it'll stay.

Yarr.

[AurorusVox]

*because you

didn't

want...

[AurorusVox]

No, me did give me opinion: I was fer it at first, den I saw dat dere wasn't mooch o' a case fer it 'appenin'. chesskid3 was actin' more scummy den Nexus an' Shadow. I tought aboot it, an' decided it would prob'ly 'elp scum more den town. I's always been givin' me reasons fer tings.

'Ave you bin readin' da same game I'm readin'? I done nuthin' but talk aboot da mass claim since page 2!

No. You gave your opinion on the other players and used that to decide whether or not massclaim was a good thing. My argument is that you hadn't, until I pointed it out, argued what merits you saw in massclaim (in a contextless, generic way). Your opinion was always by proxy of how other people were acting and what their opinion was. It was impossible to trace what YOU thought was.

Read da tread a'gain. 'E said dat I lost me town read after I attacked 'im. Dat's OMGUS. An' he only said null after I said t'was OMGUS.

I'm still having trouble seeing Umbrage scum though, even with all the misrep.
Would you, as scum, attack someone with an early townread on you?

^ OMGUS

?

What? Am I not sa'post ta defend meself? What 'reaction' is scummy 'ere zactly?

You seemed hyperdefensive. The OMGUS was a good example of this - Chess still saw you as town when you accused him of it! And you've now started trying to smear other people instead of defending yourself when it became clear I wasn't letting it drop.

You're sayin' I'm scummy fer findin' udder people's reactions scummy. Dis implies dat you tink Nexus 'n Shadow are town. Is dis true?

No, it doesn't automatically imply that. There's no reason a scummy person can't find legitimate scummy reactions, and on the other side of the coin, its too early to be giving out townreads.

But in this specific example: you yourself now agree with the idea that Chess asking for a massclaim was a bad idea. If massclaim is a bad idea, why are you criticising these people for saying so immediately? I don't think it's helpful, but I don't think it's awful. I think peoples' reactions to massclaim as an idea are null.

Yarr.

[AurorusVox]

Bullshit. I've been debating the merits of the massclaim for ages now. Post 59. Post 64. Post 74. And so on. I didn't make any big long essay of why I thought it was a good or bad idea, sorry. I debated points with the other players as they were brought up.

I accept #59 and #64 show you're debating it, which I had missed or forgotten about, but #74 highlights my point. You thought it was a bad idea, but your opinion was that you were FOR it because you didn't like Shadow and Nexus. It feels off to me.

That's the wrong quote, and I think you know it. +5 scum points go to you.

You can't just ignore the fact that he had a town read of you when you said he was OMGUS'ing. How can he be saying you're scum when he's saying, clearly, that he thinks you're town?

Heh. So, I'm overdefensive, and I'm not defending myself? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

Sorry, I should be more clear. Hyperdefensive means your reactions are out of proportion to the accusations against you, i.e. you think someone is OMGUSing when they have a town read of you. A "hyperdefence," if I can coin that phrase, is not a good defence. It's a bad defence. And then instead of offering a good defence, you turned to smear.

So then what was scummy about my 'reactions'? You've got to have some sort of reason for voting me.

Your reactions are, as stated above, hyperdefensive and smearing.

Sigh... No, I think he never should have proposed an MC if he didn't have good reasoning for it. At the time Shadow and Nexus responded, they had no way of knowing whether he had a good reason for it or not. When I voted him, it was clear he didn't. That's a big difference.

Don't you think its possible people would know already whether they think there's a good reason for massclaim D1? If someone says "Hey, let's vote no vote until LYLO," I will know straight away that that I think its a bad idea. I don't need to hear the persons' reasoning for it before I say no. I get that your "No" and their "No" were different. But I think you're assuming that people start the game without any presuppositions about mafiatheory, which I don't think is true.

*sips tea*

Anything else?

Tea, eh? Aren't the "East Indian Trading Company" the baddies in Pirates of the Carribean? Hold on; yep, here we go: they represented a counterpoint to the themes of personal freedom represented by pirates and one of their major trades was in...DUN DUN DUNNN...tea!

SCUMSCUMSCUM!

Yarr!

[AurorusVox]

wat

He obv. typo'd town and scum. Any reason you're not doing it, though?

I don't have time to discuss our wall-trades. I be packin for moving tomorrow. Consider this a statement of intent.

Yarr.

[AurorusVox]

WoT's are antitown, btw.

WoT's without content = antitown.
WoT's with content = not antitown.

[AurorusVox]

Yes, I've always made it clear that the sole reason I supported an MC was because of the scummy reactions when it was proposed. I really don't see why that is scummy.

You thought it was a bad idea, yet you supported it. If it's a bad idea you shouldn't support it. It looks all kinds of wrong. Can't you even see why this might be the case?*

Because he's trying to spread suspicion of me. His latest post is a great example of that. If I'm lynched, then he can say, "Oh my gut said he was town all along!".

I don't agree. He thought you were town but you took the slightest challenge to be him calling you scum. I think you misread the situation.**

Besides the 'OMGUS' point, can you site any examples of hyperdefensiveness?

No, the OMGUS

is

the hyperdefensiveness. We're still early in the game, I haven't got examples spilling out my ruffled shirt.

Please elaborate. Quotations would be nice.

I think I quoted you when I first made the point, or at least referenced the post. It was when you started saying "But look at Nexus and Shadow, aren't they scummier than me?" I don't like it when people deflect onto other players and try to direct scumhunting like that.**

Sure, it's possible. But if it's so obviously a bad idea, then why didn't they just say why? Let's take your example. If someone said that, then my reaction would be something like: "the scum will eat us alive, why do you think that's a good idea?" instead of "no u suk".

Maybe it was so obvious that they didn't feel the need to elaborate.

Yarr.

I'll have more to say about the *'d points after Umbrage has responded.

[AurorusVox]

No. I thought it was a good idea, but only because of the reason I said.

Yes, and that reason was because of the reactions. Which means, ISOLATED, without those reactions, you would have been against it. Which means, you thought it was a bad idea. But you were still for it because of the reactions. Which means you thought it was a bad idea, yet you supported it. Which is what I said.

Read over chesskid3, and you'll see a pattern of OMGUS, and reads determined by whether or not they agree with him. It is this pattern that makes me feel his change of opinion on me was OMGUS.

He's still calling you town, even now. Isn't the point of OMGUS that you think the person attacking you is scum? If he doesn't think you're scum, how can it be OMGUS? I DON'T GET IT.

Sorry? I think you're getting confused with my pointing out their reactions that made me support a mass claim. I never tried to redirect attention to them. In fact, they're not even my top scum candidates.

That's certainly what it looked like.

You don't think that's just a TAD scummy? Not even stopping to consider the benefits?

I see what's happened though. I took "the benefits" to mean "are you not even stopping to consider the benefits of looking at these people". What you meant what that THEY hadn't stopped to consider the benefits of massclaim.

Obviously not, since it took up so much discussion.

Not for them, it hasn't.


Anyway, this caught my eye:

2) He begins to set up tomorrow's lynch (you) when I flip town.

^It strikes me as very townish. My point to follow up was going to be that * looked like you were a blinkered townie, who thought everything you did had obviously townie motivations. I can kinda see that being the case.

But then I can't shake the feeling that the two **s are scummy. The second one not so much now that it looks like it was my misinterpretation. But thinking Chess is OMGUSing you when he thinks your town doesn't sit well, at all. We'll see. Umbrage vs Chess is somewhat reminding me of Vox vs Chess when I first played with him...

[AurorusVox]

I think so. Just trying to figure out if Umbrage is town like I was lol.

[AurorusVox]

viewtopic.php?p=2714826#p2714826 AurorusVox's chief position about Umbrage is the false assumption that Umbrage's attack on Chesskid was due to OMGUS. In addition AurorusVox accuses Umbrage of not taking positions. I'm intrested in this point

No, my point in that link and throughout has been that Umbrage accused Chess of OMGUS, i.e. Umbrage's false assumption that Chesskid's attack on him was due to OMGUS.

Now this is just silly. AurorusVox proposes a theory that Umbrage doesn't take any position. Then he concedes that Umbridge did take positions. But still insists on his theory?
AurorusVox looks like he is trying to force analysis. Umbrage clearly showed that both of his theorys are false and AurorusVox is still insisting on them

This is plain wrong. Are you saying that Chess' attack on Umbrage was OMGUS? Are you saying that agreeing that massclaim is bad but STILL saying its good is straightlaced goodstuff?

Also, where I've made mistakes, I've held my hands up and admitted it. See the missing of certain posts. See retraction of smear claim. See gradual consideration of Umbrage-town.

I only came into his focus when I attacked him, thus I called OMGUS.

That's just how Chess plays :\ If he's leaving doors open WHY wasn't that your point against him.

[AurorusVox]

What's your point?

Lordy. Look at that post you linked of mine. Yes in #86 Chess says the townread is gone because he thinks Umbrage is misrepping him (I don't see that as OMGUS either btw, but that's not what I'm debating here*). My "point" is that in post #88 Chess states that he in fact STILL sees Umbrage as town. Chess says "I'm having a hard time seeing him as scum" i.e. he's not as sure as before, but he's

not calling him scum

. Isn't a central part of OMGUS that you call everyone who questions/attacks you scum? My "point" is that as scum, he's more likely to see it as someone calling him scum

because he knows they're right

than see it as someone calling him town (since that

is

incorrect). Chess called him town. He saw it as scum.

*Oh it looks like we are debating that too now.

This is plain wrong. Are you saying that Chess' attack on Umbrage was OMGUS?

Yes

If you think someone is misrepping you, they, by necessity, have to be attacking you. Showing that you disagree with someone's arguments is not OMGUS. Example: You think I'm misrepping Umbrage. If he turned around and said "You've lost your townread, zommmmg" like Chess did to him...I wouldn't shout "OMGUS! OMGUS!" Claiming misrep is analysing the attackers intent to accuse them of intentionally twisting words (much like you're accusing me of)...surely claiming OMGUS is just shouting that someone is wrong and scum because they're attacking you without trying to show that they're wrong?

I've included the posts below. Please tell me about Umbrage not taking any positions

I be fer a name claim jus coz Nexus 'n Shadow are so against it. But me not picky.

No position.

^We agree here.

Flubber McBlubber is not a pirate anyone has ever heard of.
Therefore he is not going to be a role.

'Ow many pirates 'ave you 'eard of den? You mean dat if someone's name is obscure, den dey're lyin'? Dat's crazy, dere aren't dat many pirates dat we'd all know, 'sides o'course Long John Silver and Capt. Jack Sparrow.

Questions ChessKid's reasoning

^We even agree here. I admitted this earlier.

For god's sakes earlier you were for it because others were so against it
the fuck happened?

I knows why I wants it, I's jus' wond'rin why you want it so much.

And 'retard' ain't no swear. It's a slur, and I won't be havin' it!

So given that I don't believe scum have fakeclaims, does my strategy make more sense?

I's still don't tink da mod 'ould be picky aboot da age 'o piracy an stuff like dat.

I's wouldn't be fer it at all 'cept fer Shadow 'n Nexus not likin' it.

True Grit's playing in the background, so I'm talking in a cowboy/pirate hybird.

Declares ChessKid's plan as bad

Declares the plan is bad but, the "except" shows that he's still for it. He's keeping his options open, not taking a stance, because he's saying "I wouldn't be for it, I don't think it's a good idea" --- "except I am for it." I think its shifty.

Also, where I've made mistakes, I've held my hands up and admitted it. See the missing of certain posts. See retraction of smear claim. See gradual consideration of Umbrage-town.

Make a decision now. Umbrage, town or scum?

Scum.

That's at the moment based on residual scumminess from earlier, but I'm not as sure as I was before. It is fully liable to change.

[AurorusVox]

Doom: why do you think that pressuring a player who is declared V/LA is a productive venture?

[AurorusVox]

RE: ISO #11
/embarrassment of AV

Hooeyy. I have been completely off the ball. I blame my essay.

---

No you shouldn't have gone along with what anyone had said, you should have had your own reasons and thoughts as regards the MC (which, ironically, you did). But the fact remains that these thoughts of your own - that it was a bad idea - do not mesh with your stance on the massclaim, which was shifty. Explicitly, what I'm suggesting is that I'd have found it less scummy for you to say "I think its a bad idea. I don't support it."

I think you've contradicted yourself and I find contradictions are a useful scumtell, which is why I've pushed you so hard on it, even though it is only a minor thing. But this latest post (specifically the second half, i.e. your utter lack of acknowledgement of any shred of scumminess to your actions) is making it seem like you can't even conceive of why anyone would find you scummy, i.e. making you seem like, as I said earlier, a blinkered townie. Couple that with my mistake (I need to start ISOing again...my recent games have put me out of the habit =_=") and I'm willing to downgrade you from "Scum" to "Null leaning town."

Unvote

[AurorusVox]

In addition, Chesskid is still saying that he still suspects Umbrage. He did not give Umbrage a green read like you said.

He said he had trouble seeing him as scum. So he did not give Umbrage a scum read either.

I am reading a FOS Nexus and Shadow on the post. How is this keeping his options open?
In addition why would anyone need to keep his options open on a plan that was grounded the moment it poped out of Chesskids mouth?

He's keeping his options open with regards to the plan. I don't know why he'd want to do it, but it was contradictory, which is why I didn't like it.

In addition, how would you address Umbrage's positions on Chesskid and Nexus. Are these also shifty?

I actually ISO'd this time /facepalm

As I said earlier, his Chess case reminds me of how I played against Chess in our first game together. We butted heads a lot, because of some suspect things Chess did that was probably just the way he plays. I can't see him wanting to let go of Chess for the future, which might become distracting, but for now I'm treating Chess as town and Umbrage as misguided.

The Nexus suspicion is okay. I think the analysis of Nexus' voting is better than the lack of contribution element, since a lot of players could be accused of the same or similar. Pretty null.

His Jedo analysis is good, tho (Y)

And now a question for you AurorusVox.* How experienced are you in mafia?

*Wait, weren't those others questions? xD

I can link you my Wiki if you like so you can judge for yourself, but in my opinion I'm an okay player on average with a fair amount of experience on chat mafia and about as much as you'd experience from ~10months on here. I've seen how to play well from other players which has helped, and I have the right sort of head for logic/linguistic analytical play. But I play a much better game as scum, because as town I always second guess myself and end up looking scummy. But I prefer being town. Less pressure ><"

/Umbrage post incoming

[AurorusVox]

This is a bad post. You've tunneled on me the entire game. Now you're trying to make some sort of compromise, like "what you did was scummy but I think you're town" in the hopes that I'll forget all the bad cases you made on me that I shot down. If I contradicted myself, show me where.

THIS IS MY BLINKEREDTOWNIE POINT. I have shown you where I think you've contradicted yourself. Saying you are for and against something at the same time is a contradiction. You thought MC was bad (against) "except" because of Nexus/Shadow, you supported it (for).

Also, lol, "entire game" rhetoric ahoy. Thread's been open, what, two days? I thought you were scummy and have been strapped for time. So I focussed my efforts on you.

What exactly am I supposed to acknowledge? [...] But I've never contradicted myself, or done anything that you claim I've done.

See above for why you HAVE contradicted yourself imo. I'm not expecting you to break down and claim that you're scum. I'm saying that you seem to be essentially ignoring what I'm actually saying because it does not compute.

But now, suddenly, I look town to you? What the hell? If you had any solid evidence that I'm scum, you wouldn't let it drop. But if you didn't have any solid evidence, you wouldn't say I refuse to acknowledge points made against me.

I have let it drop because you've refused to acknowledge the points made against you. And what rhetoric again, "suddenly" - no, I made it quite clear that my read of you had started to change earlier. I don't know why you're expecting iron-clad cases in a game that's on IRL day two. I pushed a weakish case hard to try to get your reactions. I wasn't satisfied at first and so I pushed harder. But your recent play has been more satisfying.

Up until now, I've been working under the assumption that you're town who hasn't had the time to read my statements properly, or misunderstood a few things. But this post is making me question that. This is a poor cop-out of an invalid scumread.

Excuse me, but didn't I actually acknowledge that this has partly been my problem? I've got a fat-off essay to hand in tomorrow so yes, I haven't had the sort of time I'd have liked, and I've been having fly-by visits here as distractions so yes, I haven't paid as much attention or done as much background checking as I probably should have. You thought it because...that's what the reason was. As I said. In the exact post you quoted.

I want to know who you now think is scum, and why. You've tunneled on me the whole game.

Again with the "entire game" rhetoric, wow. I think your points against Jedo were good. That was what started me thinking of you as town. I don't really have any other scumreads because yes, I've been focussing on you. But no one else has really done that much up til now that looks that bad because the game's still in the early stages.

Yarr.

[AurorusVox]

I've said already that I think Chess is town but you didn't ask for townreads :\
I also gave my opinion on your case on Nexus. His voting at the start was odd, but I don't find his non-appearance to be a big deal considering everyone's doing it.

Also, re: OMGUS - if you use a well-known term in your own unique way, you're going to have to expect to be pushed to explain what you mean. What do you make of him calling it "misrep"? Doesn't accusing someone of misrep require that the person is attacking you?

[AurorusVox]

I was looking forwards to JoanBud's "next post," but it has yet to come. I'll wait on that before further action.

---

Umbrage: What "policy" do you want to use to lynch IS exactly?

---

As per Bunny's request for Nexus discussion:
HOLDUP. Bunny, why did you pick out Nexus as the one who deserved more attention? Especially considering he's still V/LA which I've ALREADY picked you up on once before.

Vote: DoomBunny

Fool me once, etc.

---

Liar: if by "here" you mean on-site (?), I personally treat lurking on the whole as a null, because both scum and town do it all the time. It's usually IRL related, so entirely independent of alliance.

[AurorusVox]

><"

Wow I look silly. I only saw your post, not your reg-date, because I got ninja'd. I thought you'd played on here a lot before, so thought "here" may have meant "among us", i.e. you were asking if there were people here who chronically lurk as a habit.

[AurorusVox]

Umbrage: Jeez. Don't say Jedo has posted nothing then reprimand him for his posts.

[AurorusVox]

I can't help but feel Chess is an easy target. Smargaret's vote is worse than Shadow's because Smargarat implies his previous vote was a good one. The only reason he's shifting it onto Chess is because his other suspect disappeared. When he comes back, I bet he'd have left it on Chess (who's just going to keep accruing more voters as the day goes on) if I hadn't mentioned this. Smargaret, clarify: is the vote for Chess' question, or is it a placeholder until your other suspect comes back? Do you think unvoting players when they disappear is setting a good precedent for scum in the future?

Chess, why ask a hyposcum flip on your part? If you're town, we're not going to be able to check what he says here against a townflip because his read would change based on your flip. I don't think it's a very good question so I don't think shadow is wrong for not answering it in those terms.

[AurorusVox]

Indeed, but Shadow is pushing Chesskid3 as a policy lynch, rather than trying to paint him as Scum.

Which of those (PL/paint scum) do you think scum are most likely to do to a VI?

Smargret; what's your read of Nexus in light of his replacement?
(on the topic of Nexus, he probably won't be back to see me say "Get well soon!" but there it is anyway, yarr.)

[AurorusVox]

Indeed, but Shadow is pushing Chesskid3 as a policy lynch, rather than trying to paint him as Scum.

Which of those (PL/paint scum) do you think scum are most likely to do to a VI?

Both town and mafia would do the same thing, go for a policy lynch. Town because of shear frustration. Scum because a PL would be easier to pull off.

Are you frustrated with Chess?

---

Jedo, Brit - what do you make of Umbrage's

reactions

to my points about the MC issue/OMGUS claim against Chess? The confidence I had in my read was shaken a bit when I realised how I'd misread him in a few places. Do you think that's tainted my read on him overall?

---

People who are voting Chess: can you just clarify whether this is a

policy

vote or something additional from this game that supports him being scum?

[AurorusVox]

Liar

Indeed I am.
However I do not support policy lynches, or lynches based on "This person is acting VI so he must be scum".

^I agree with the second sentiment. I don't think you can distinguish between people

being

VI and

acting

VI, so votes that use that excuse are bad.*

As for Policy Lynches, I support Lynch All Liars and another secret one. I can see why people push policy lynches on VIs, because VIs can't be trusted towards endgame. (Ex: I played a game with renowned VI drmyshottyizsik in which he voted early at LYLO, because he "forgot it was LYLO", and me and my buddy quickhammered for the easy win.) But personally I think its best to treat it on an individual basis.

Regarding tells, I think some tells are more easy to manipulate than others. For example, "third person on the wagon" has good origins, but scum can just refuse to be third on the wagon now. Equally people may think hammering on scum is a towntell, but scum can do it for towncred. On the other hand, something like "contradictions" is something that I like pursuing when I see it, because scum have more reason to lie and thus be caught out by contradicting themselves. Unfortunately, though an optimum townie wouldn't contradict themselves, sometimes they do. So its all swings and roundabouts.

---

Shadow

I'm pretty sure you're stretching in order to legitimise your PL vote. You've decided to find Chess scummy and so are purposefully going out of your way to paint everything in that way. Shouting his arguments down by saying WIFOM when everything anyone says can be WIFOM doesn't sit well.

Mine started as a policy vote, but I think he's deliberately playing dumb. That whole mass claim idea debacle was also pretty scummy. It could probably still be classified as a policy vote, I'm just looking for something else scummy to happen, I don't expect a speed policy lynch.

This just proves it. I know you mean that "something else" can be from anyone, but I think you've basically restricted yourself to finding Chess scummy. Which I'm not sure how you can do with any certainty.

Using meta as defense is scummy.

You realize scum can hide behind town tells, and that it's actually scummy to say "Hey, only town does this, I'm doing it, I must be town!"

I'm of the belief that 'tells' follow along the lines of metagaming, and I'd much rather analyse the actions of someone in context to the game their currently playing, and the questions asked/answered therein.

You can't say scum have meta-knowledge of tells (i.e. they purposefully use towntells) without accepting that they'd also be able to avoid dropping scumtells. Do you make a distinction between scummy/scumtells, and townie/towntells? I think your spinning things in a scummy light to legitimise your vote, so that you can say "Oh, yeah, not the easy target, actually I think he's scum."

CK is not new, he's playing the VI card, and I don't think you can play that many games and still be that dense.

IS has already shown how this isn't the case. How on earth can you claim to be able to distinguish between legitimate VI behaviour and fabricated VI behaviour? This is the sort of stretching behaviour I'm talking about. Overall I don't like it.

Unvote

Vote: Shadow1psc

---

Brit/Jedo

: thanks, that's helped me sort my read out a bit. I might in fact be doing the opposite of what I accused Shadow of (in my case: seeing I've made a mistake, and then thinking since I made a mistake about that, I must be wrong about Umbrage as a whole, and thus looking for towntells in his play). I'll keep my eye on him. In the meantime, I'm happy with my new Shadowvote. Still not sold on Doombunny, but Shadow's play on the last few pages has looked eww.

[AurorusVox]

Didn't AV just drop Umbrage to jump on me...?

[...]

AV tends to backpedal a lot and is trying to leave himself open for retractions and target switching, and concedes point. Not pointing this out as scummy, but I DO think at that stage of the topic Umbrage hadn't fully redeemed himself, and CK wasn't AS bad as I thought. Umbrage continues to look bad, looking his gift horse of one less accuser in the mouth, after AV has explained his reasoning. It sounds like he's trying to capitalize on defeat and run someone else down. Again, I don't find AVs concession scummy.

Hmm. Just to clarify a few things:

I dropped Umbrage but I do still think my points against him are valid. Just that, as scum, I think since he'd KNOW he was scum he'd react differently. He's acted as though he knows he's town, and expects everyone else to. It's the opposite pole of his OMGUS claim against Chess (since he knows he's scum, he thought someone gave him a scumread when it was more like a townread). My read of Umbrage at the moment pretty much rests on where on this scale he resides. The second point he made against Jedo's votepost really got this thought process going, and I definitely think it's been lubricated by me making some mistakes in my cases against him. Its why I asked Jedo and Brit what they thought, since one of my problems as town is that I can argue myself in circles and convince myself both ways.

I definitely like the pressure on him though. I'd probably still be going over the same thing if I was still pursuing my case...he just seems so adamant that he's town. So, with the new Umbrage vote. I assume your reasons for finding him scummy are the same as most other people. It feels a bit off to me; the timing is definitely stinky. Did you not find it scummy back then? Or have you purposefully been tunnelling Chess.

NINJA EDIT

: oh, you voted IS now? That pressure didn't last long. Hmm. Banking this for later.

DOUBLENINJAWHAMMY

: Also it looks like you've clarified that you were

purposefully

tunnelling Chess. Do you think that's helpful?

---

w/r/t your "Look other people find CHK scummy!" point;

The thing is, Nero was clear his vote was a PL. Others have raised points about Chess that might not be great but are still calling him scum. You've said PL (which constitutes something of a null vote/read)...then looked for reasons to legitimise it. So you can switch from PL to scum with ease after it's been highlighted as an issue.

[AurorusVox]

Unvote

Vote: Smargaret

claiming at l-3 is a towntell yo

Orly? Imo claiming early is a scumtell. Or a stupidtell. Shadow's not stupid so.

[AurorusVox]

You have to wonder why he was so against mass name claim and then claimed his name for no reason.

WALK THE PLANK, YARR

[AurorusVox]

The hard and fast rule is don't claim until you're at L-1, and even then, its usually best to wait until someone declares an intent to hammer. In my opinion, deviations from that rule tend to have scummy (or stupid) reasons.

[AurorusVox]

Smargaret's latest post looks bad, potentially shadow's buddy misrepping the wagon against him. Actually I think IS said they were both scum earlier too.

Chess, why are you so sure he's town? Didn't you vote him earlier?
Also Britstep's been calling IS Insane Strangler for a while now, does that make them buddies too? So what, Britstep-Smargaret-IS scumteam based SOLELY on mistaken names? Some kind of cutesy scum name games going on? =_="

[AurorusVox]

Disagree. Simple onepost scumtells shouldn't be used. Rather I support analysis.

Actually, thanks for reminding me that Shadow never responded to my question about tells/ies. I'm not saying use tells; I'm saying Shadow hasn't been consistent in his application of them. He's trying to say that scum can purposefully drop towntells, without acknowledging that such meta-knowledge would allow them to avoid dropping scumtells. There IS a difference between scummy and scumtells, but his post "metadefence is scummy" suggests he doesn't think that way. By this I mean that saying point-blank "X-action is scummy" is equivalent to saying it is a scumtell. He therefore accused Chess of purposefully dropping towntells; and accused him of dropping a scumtell. That's inconsistent logic.

CK is not new, he's playing the VI card, and I don't think you can play that many games and still be that dense.

IS has already shown how this isn't the case. How on earth can you claim to be able to distinguish between legitimate VI behaviour and fabricated VI behaviour? This is the sort of stretching behaviour I'm talking about. Overall I don't like it.

Agreed that CK probably could be legitimate VI. But disagree about this meaning Shadow is scum. Shadow is clearly frustrated about CK and he is not alone here. His method of approach is simply to push for a lynch

His lynchpush is misrepresenting Chess as faking his VI-ness. If he was just frustrated he'd say he wanted to lynch Chess for being a VI. As it stands, he's saying "Oh no Chess is faking it because he's scum!" - it fits with my stretching to make his PL seem as though its going after scum.

[AurorusVox]

Lol@ not reading accusation. I made my mistake earlier. Further lol in that only the very first post came after my case against you, so don't try to say that those three were in response to my accusations, or that they answer me in any way. Let me hit them up one by one:

1) I know you've been saying it started as a PL and you've been looking for reasons he can be scum, but my point is you've been trying to make Chess look like he's scum, probably because the PL obviously doesn't have much support. Looking for scumtells with Chess isn't going to get you very far, regardless of his alignment. Thinking Chess is faking his VI-ness is ludicrous; that's who he is, and I think you really showed your hand when you tried to say that. You're spinning things so that it looks scummy when really it's just Chess. I mean, you're even trying to turn Chess' well established VI gameplay into a calculated move on his part. If that isn't stretching for scumtells, I don't know what is.

2) (This didn't answer my question about distinguishing between tells and scummy/townie because I hadn't asked it yet herp) Why are you content to use "metadefence is scummy" as an argument then? Saying anything outside of context is scummy (as you did there) is calling it a scumtell. You're happy to use scumtells to discredit Chess. But not for any other reason?

3) see 1

4) I don't really see what this has to do with my accusations against you

[AurorusVox]

Do you accept that saying "Metadefence is scummy" is contextless and therefore constitutes you saying "Metadefence is a scumtell"?

You're using scumtells, despite saying you don't like doing it, and despite having no faith in towntells. That's what's so odd about that particular exchange.

[AurorusVox]

@Liar, I think we disagree on definitions...

A scumtell is a contextless action
A scummy action is something in context

Example:
"You voted third on the wagon. That is a scumtells"
vs
"You've voted third on the wagon. This is consistent with you trying to be middle of the road, and posting only minimal content, whilst actively lurking for most of your time in the game so far. I find your actions scummy."

Saying "metadefence is scummy" is contextless and therefore Shadow was using it as a scumtell
If he'd expanded on it and applied it directly to Chess from the start, it wouldn't be so bad.

---

His alternative method for getting Chess lynched is misrepping his VI behaviour. You don't find that scummy?

[AurorusVox]

Why isn't his analysis in context? I see his analysis of Chess as a way to make sense of what Chess is doing.

He didn't apply it to Chess. He just said engaging in meta defence is scummy. He only later went on to qualify it after he'd had pressure from Jedo, and later myself. He didn't show how Chess was using it in a scummy way, just suggested that all instances of meta defence are scumtells. Beyond this, it fits with his flinging buzzwords at Chess to see what sticks, following on from shouting WIFOM at him earlier in the game. It doesn't seem like there's content there, just the appearance of. Yes, we can infer what he means and why its scummy, but he doesn't say this and that's what makes it using a contextless scumtell.

---

Asking who you'd look at upon a Shadow-town flip, if he's legit town, is, as Smargaret says, pretty anti-town. If we all collectively say there's a player we wouldn't suspect, they'd draw the NK, whilst players who are universally suspected will be left alive. If he's scum, his scumteam get a bit more info out of his flip - who we think is town through association, who they need to be wary of tomorrow. So there's no motivation for him to ask as town; and a little motivation to ask as scum.

Refusing to claim is ridiculously anti-town to scummy. Again, noticing that there's no reason not to claim, unless he's scum as Bunny says.

---

Nero Cain: I'm either way towards you replacing or remaining. If you'll have time to offer your opinion on D1 before we get to night, then stay; if you won't but a replacement would, it'd be better to replace out. If your activity is going to be consistently low throughout, I'd prefer replacement, but if it's picking up and we can get a brief look at D1 from you then I don't mind waiting.

[AurorusVox]

Fine I admit I cut out 2 lines of text.

Why do you cut 2 lines out to save space when you often put your responses inside quotewalls?

Umbrage is once again becoming one to watch.

[AurorusVox]

Now who's misrepresenting? I cut out those lines to avoid confusion, so my argument would be clear. I was concerned with clarity, not showing the quotes in their entirety.

You cut out lines for clarity, yes.

But what about those mahoosive bolded text inside quotes?
That's certainly not cutting for clarity.

Your turn.

[AurorusVox]

If you think it's too hard to read, I can stop, but nobody's complained yet.

Umbrage, the way you're formatting your posts makes it hard to tell which bits are yours, and impossible to reply to just your responses. Would you consider ending the quote where you feel the need to reply and then re-quoting for the next bit of text please?

But putting that to one side

I've seen other people do the bold inside quotes thing before, and I think it's an easy and convenient way to respond while keeping the entire conversation intact.

I cut out those lines to avoid confusion, so my argument would be clear. I was concerned with clarity, not showing the quotes in their entirety.

Why are you sometimes concerned with clarity and brevity (cutting lines) and sometimes keeping the entire quote? Inconsistent posting style could be indicative of nefarious motives behind your responses which impacts on how you shape them. I'll be looking at these deviations and see if I can detect any secret scum reasons behind the decisions in each case. Dun dun dunn.

[AurorusVox]

Do you deny that you've done things differently in different cases?

[AurorusVox]

No.

So not misrepresenting then, eh?

[AurorusVox]

No.

So not misrepresenting then, eh?

?

You accused

me

of misrepresenting

you

when I said that in some places you included the entire quotewall whereas in others you cut lines out.

It seemed odd since you were claiming to cut lines for a purpose (

other than

misrepresentation of the person you were quoting), but you had been happy to include a massive quotewall in previous responses. Actually, this feeds into the accusation (I think it was Britstep said it originally) about you missing parts out of Shadow/Nero Cain's response to MC near the start of the game.

I haven't had the time to comb through your posts yet, but I expect where you've cut it's been to spin something in your favour - so actually working against clarity. We'll see.

[AurorusVox]

Wraith needs to get his catchup post in first.

[AurorusVox]

You accused me of misrepresenting you when I said that in some places you included the entire quotewall whereas in others you cut lines out.

That's a misrepresentation. Seriously, I have no clue what you're talking about. And if the only thing for you to do in this game right now is to question my posting habits, I advise you seriously re-examine a) your life and b) the thread.

First of all fuck you very much, what has (a) got to do with anything?

Second of all, now that my calm explanation mode has been switched off, let me put it in a way you might understand.

(1) You post huge quote walls with your comments included. This keeps the whole quote intact
(2) You post snippeted quotes for brevity and what you claim is clarity. This does not keep the whole quote intact.

(a) You

agree

that you have done both 1 & 2 so far.
(b) I said that you have done both 1 & 2.

Therefore a = b

(c) However, you accused me of misrepresentation.

???
Profit

No, no fucking profit.

Here's where the language might get a little tricky. Try to keep up.

(i) There have been accusations levelled at you that you've cut quotes down IN ORDER TO MISREPRESENT what people mean.
(ii) You say "NO THIS IS NOT THE CASE"

(iii) BUT If it wasn't the case, why do you do both 1 & 2?
(iv) The EXISTENCE of 1 means that you're doing 2 on purpose
(v) When you've done 2, you've misrepresented.
(vi) THEREFORE you are misrepresenting on purpose

QED You are scum

But you're tomorrow's lynch.

What's with people wagonning Chess?
We have a claimed VT.
Wagonning on Chess if he is not scum will potentially out a PR.
Allowing a VT to survive into the night phase allows scum greater chance of hitting a PR.

(This was the other secret Policy Lynch I follow. I didn't want to say it before cos scum wouldn't fakeclaim VT and get caught.)

IGMEOY: Aurorus Vox

I've been in a couple games with him and he tends to be more active than this. However, while I'm not taking the time out to meticulously check posting dates, this might coincide with a period in another game where he disappeared due to IRL issues. We'll see son enough.

The drop-off in activity is consistent in most of my games. It coincides with me starting a Masters Degree :\

[AurorusVox]

Umbrage:

Refer to Britstep's post. Misrepresenting yourself now. Tut tut.

There's also this:

Now who's misrepresenting?

---

Also, I already explained why my vote isn't on you. Lynch all claimed VTs. In that post. Are you not reading any more?

[AurorusVox]

Also I used Roman numerals because I'd already used numerics and alpha characters. I figured FOR CLARITY I'd keep things separate. You'd not know much about clarity, though, would you?

[AurorusVox]

Bunny; my point is that the fact that a VT is claimed helps the scum hit PRs more easily. Regardless of who the VT is. The numbers don't lie.

Also, waggonning elsewhere risks outing PRs. But people seem to have ignored that possibility - Chess is now at L-1. It looks like scum have got their way. If anyone is prepared to hammer, Chess will need to fullclaim.

I don't mind leaving VTs alive if I'm convinced the alternative wagon is on scum. I'm not 100% convinced on Chess and I don't really see how anyone who has played with him before can be. Actually, Chess, can you tell us who you've played with before? I'll have my eye on each and every one of you. His entire style renders him null by posts; the only way to read Chess is by actions.

[AurorusVox]

Ooh.

Prana:; does Nero's vote on Nexus not count because it didn't specify Britstep?

[AurorusVox]

Uh, that was a joke. Hence the 'seriously' afterward.

Vote: Umbrage

Seriously, can we lynch this liar? This was not a joke. The "seriously" afterward went on to say: "seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about."

i.e. seriously I have no idea what you're talking about, what misrepresentation?

Oh, because the scum will go for the PRs, right? So, an increased chance of a PR hit is worth letting almost certain scum live another day? It doesn't sound like you're too sure I'm scum, which is surprising seeing as you've been tunneling on me for half the game. Hoping to set up tomorrow's lynch by any chance?

If we can get you lynched today I am all for it but the latest votecount doesn't make this likely. If we can't lynch you the lynch is Shadow.

Would anyone on the Chess wagon support an Umbrage lynch? Oh, and its not tunnelling when you've done scummier and scummier things as the game's gone on.

---

In fact, AV, let's talk about your stance on shadow/chess.

You say we have a claimed VT, why are we looking further since shadow is a better lynch than chess. You seem to be discounting the possibility that shadow is telling the truth about his role and chess is scum - in which case, chess is the right lynch today. You also seem to have role information that we don't. I'm not entirely sure what to call it, but if chess is scum I suspect you are as well for trying to defend him by getting the shadow wagon going again.

/facepalm

I said that I didn't think Chess was obvscum. He's never obvscum. You said it yourself; he's been anti-town. THAT is not the same as scummy. How can you support a lynch on him as being scum when the best reason you have is that he's anti-town?

---

it would be 1000000000000x better to lynch you than no lynch.

This I agree with.

Chess is better than a no lynch.
Shadow is better than a Chess lynch.
Umbrage is better than a shadow lynch.

How far up my chain can we get?

---

Let's go back to my previous example. Let's say that out of the "pro-town" people, wraith and nero are PR's and you're a VT. Assuming they can't read any of them, they have a 2/3 chance in hitting a PR whether or not chess and shadow claim or not. If chess is town and doesn't claim today, the scum aren't going to kill him and are going to go after the most townie people.

The actual equivalent would be if I then went and claimed VT. Then they'd have a 2/2 chance of hitting PR.

[AurorusVox]

Wait, what happened to your lynch all VT's stance and avoid getting potential PR's (like Umbrage) to claim?

Lynch all VTs comes with a clause; lynching scum is better than PLing claimed VTs. I am pretty confident at the moment that Umbrage is scum. I think the subtle things - like language choice - are harder to hide as scum than the big obvious things. And I think that his language choice has shown him to be misrepresenting on purpose.

But then? Then he flat out lied and said he hadn't accused me of misrep. Then he tried to pass his lie off as a joke? I wasn't sure until his latest post, but that was tantamount to a scumclaim imo. It's blown all my blinkered townie ideas out the window. If he really was blinkered townie, then he'd have continued calling MY ideas stupid, not tried to pass his own off as a joke.

[AurorusVox]

- Your motives for misrepresentation is to misrepresent. That's the point of MISREPRESENTATION. I'm also not saying cutting posts down is scummy in itself. I'm saying that on the one hand you cut posts down. On the other you include the WHOLE FRICKIN POST. Our actions are not arbitrary, and don't you try to tell me I should treat yours as such, my friend. I see you cutting down WHEN YOU WANT TO MISREPRESENT. That is the reason in itself.

Tick.

- I have in fact shown this. Your "proof" that it was a joke is that you went on to say "seriously". But the seriously ALSO said the same as what came before it, i.e. that you had not misrepresented me. Tick.

- Lynch all claimed VTs has a GODDAMN CLAUSE that lynching scum > PL'ing a claimed VT. I am pretty sure you're scum. Therefore the vote moves.

---

Umbrage, for your benefit, I will now explain how Lynch all Claimed VT's works. Seeing as you're really not getting it. Assuming things now let's work it out:

12 players / 3 scum / 3 PRs / 6 VTs

Scenario 1: Claimed VT left alive and town, with another VT eliminated
==> Scum have a 3/7 chance to hit PR, one town death

Scenario 2: Claimed VT lynched and town
==> Scum have a 3/8 chance to hit PR, one town death

Scenario 3: Claimed VT left alive and town, with scum lynched instead
==> Scum have a 3/8 chance to hit PR, one scum death

Scenario 4: Claimed VT left alive, with a PR claimed, and VT then lynched
==> Scum have a 100% chance to hit PR

Scenario 5: Claimed VT left alive, with a PR lynched
==> Scum have a 2/7 chance to hit PR, one PR death

Yes, I know the numbers are only small at the moment but here, we still see that Scenario 3 is the best. I won't go into the scenarios if the claimed VT is scum (VT is an eeeeasy claim for scum. Also, pushing this policy forces scum to think up fake roleclaims. Which helps in the long term) because you're arguing it as if he's town (even though you voted him earlier?)

(Oh, and just in case this is all posturing and you actually think/know he's scum then why aren't you voting for him? Do you really think Chess is a better lynch that scum?)

Oh, tick.

---

Need I say more?

Yes. Yes say more. Are you calling him scum?

3) I don't care if you find CK3 scummy or anti-town or whatever.

FDUFHDJHGFD

This is more of that sidestepping.

IT IS A VALID POINT
That you want to lynch someone who is "anti-town"
YOU SHOULD WANT TO LYNCH SCUM I.E. SHADOW
But wait! No! You didn't have to bus afterall!

So. You have Shadow, who was once scum according to you and your vote - who has now claimed VT - and you want to ignore that to lynch someone who is ANTI TOWN? Scum would love to see Anti-Town unclaimed PR Chesskid easy vote lynched over scummy Shadow claimed VT (whether he is town OR scum) ><"

At least you're not alone in this. Doombunny's hop (get it?) also looks suspect especially considering he's played with Chess before. We'll see.

---

I think I've been playing with SpyreX and Fate too much. TOO MANY CAPS. Actually I think it's just that Umbrage boils my blood.

[AurorusVox]

Your motives for misrepresentation is to misrepresent

Stopped reading here. If you can't come up with anything better than I'm scum because I'm scum, we're through talking.

FFFFFFFUUUUUUU

MISREPRESENTATION IS A END NOT A MEANS
YOU'RE SCUM BECAUSE YOU MISREPRESENT
OR IF YOU PREFER IT YOU MISREPRESENT BECAUSE YOU'RE SCUM
HOW HARD IS IT
MY GOD

/cool down

The rest of my post provides more reasons for you being scum. If you want to just ignore it, fine, but expect my vote all day every day until you get lynched.

Yarr.

[AurorusVox]

Scum do not just misrepresent things for the hell of it.

Scum misrepresent to forward their scummy agenda. Misrepresenting people undermines their points and spins things to make yourself look better. Townies do not misrepresent on purpose. You've done it on purpose.

[AurorusVox]

I just thought it funny that AV would post this about someone else right after IS' hilarious post.

What's your point? I'd already typed it and got ninja'd. Of you and IS I'd rather see you hang. Your other problems with IS you can take up with him.

[AurorusVox]

><

I voted Umbrage but I must have not unvoted first due to rage.

Unvote
Vote: Umbrage

[AurorusVox]

with the way IS and AV are trying to find any alternate lynch, it could one or both of them as well.

Yipee more misrep.

The lynches I want are YOU or SHADOW. Count it: my lynch options lie on two people. Okay, hold up let's look at what comes next:

3) From my point of view, today's lynch has to be either Shadow or CK3.

(so two people)

Hypocrisywhatnow? Don't put me as trying to find "any alternative lynch" when I have two people who I think are scum, and you have two people you think are scum. We also BOTH have acceptable no-lynch avoidance votes (mine is Chess, yours is IS). If you're calling me scummy for my preference-chain of votes, you'd damn well better be calling yourself scummy too.

As for IS, how you can say HE'S looking for any alternative lynch is laughable. He's been pushing Shadow all day.

[AurorusVox]

AV, you want hypocritical, that's some nice hypocritical bullshit right there.

Deflecting? Cool.

And how about rather than just saying Jedo's post is hypocritical, you tell us what's hypocritical about it. Are you saying his position on IS and Shadow is hypocritical? I don't see it.

[AurorusVox]

@IS: I may be on planet Umbrage but we fly shuttles to the moon of Shadow every deadline.

[AurorusVox]

Nero/Doom; do you disagree with what Jedo said in his latest post, or do you just not like that he's defending IS?

Follow up question for Jedo waiting in the wings...

[AurorusVox]

Okay, thanks gentlemen.
Now, Jedo: How far back do you think IS was planning this gambit?

[AurorusVox]

Basically, Chess and IS are OMGUSing scum and we need a lynch on one of them today to avoid a no-lynch.

False. We need to lynch SOMEONE to avoid a no lynch. It doesn't have to be one of these two.

Unvote
Vote: Shadow

With no support for an Umbrage lynch, I'm going back to my previous case on Shadow and lynch the claimed VT scenario.

[AurorusVox]

4 - Umbrage: Dear God this man is genius. CONCLUSION: Incredibly handsome.

This made me lol.

8 - AurorusVox: Utterly unreasonable.

Lol. Unreasonable because I won't drop a case that you can't defend against, and in some cases don't even acknowledge?

Pushes cases even when they've lost all merit.

See Britstep

Forms a good case on Shadow, but then pushes the weird 'claimed VT' thing.

See an earlier post where I explain logically and mathematically the benefits of lynching claimed VTs. Also, the policy of lynching claimed VTs does not nullify my earlier case on Shadow. It simply compliments it and makes Shadow a better candidate for the rope.

Contradicts himself, says he's alright with Shadow or myself, but not IS.

How is that a contradiction? You and Shadow are my top 2 scumspects, IS isn't.

Butchers my quotes, seemingly on purpose.

ROFLMAO

Oh jeez, you must be smoking something.

Wasn't this EXACTLY my case on you that you said had no merit? Except, whereas you've done two wildly different things and have been PROVEN to misrep, I have...not? Oh right. You're trying that new fangled scum technique of "stealing peoples' cases on you and using it against them for no reason". I don't think it'll catch on.

Given to fits of rage when he doesn't get his way.

I am normally quite level headed. I am given to fits of rage when you defend against my case by not reading it. How you can claim to have any read on me when you're not even

read

ing my posts is laughable.

CONCLUSION: A likely buddy of IS. He's pushed too hard to be partners with Shadow, IMO. Still, he could be a strong asset to the town, so I'm hesitant about a lynch.

What is this bullshit? "He's probably scum but he might help town oh noez" if you want to pretend I'm scum don't pussyfoot around it.

---

Yarr ahoy there Snake!

[AurorusVox]

How far back do you think IS was planning this gambit?

The setup of Nero? Probably not far. After all, he had never really said chess was scum, so it didn't make sense for IS to vote chess.

Eh. I have a problem with your post then. See, the thing is, IS

had

said before mentioning the potential for a Chess-hammer that he found Chess "suspicious" and thought he could be scum.

I believe that whatever Chesskid is doing is deliberate. So unless he is scum, he will come through for the town in the end anyways.

Considering that, his refusal to maintain a vote on Shadow despite all the arguments and the beliefs of others is a lot more suspicious than foolish.

If he was just playing dumb and just waiting to get to lylo, he shouldnt be concerned as much regarding who gets lynched.

Its quite possible that them two are a scumteam as someone had theorized.

(Lets lynch Shadow first anyways)

I really like that speculation that the scumteam contains Shadow and Chess.

One small thing Wraith forgets to mention is that I paired up Shadow and Chess as a scumteam like three times now. (Based on someone elses idea, which sounded good)
Maybe he hasnt read that far yet.

He also said after the hammer-gambit:

Chesskid is likely to be scum, but as #2 scum. My #1 scum is Shadow. Im waiting for Shadow to hammer Chess and see what happens.

I was hoping you'd say that you thought the gambit had been planned from way back here and through past the Nero incident, since that would be consistent with your view that IS doesn't think Chess is scummy. IS only really started seeing Chess as town after Shadow refused to hammer him. Do you still think there's a distinction between IS not hammering and Shadow not hammering?

---

In other news, Umbrage's vote on Jedo is awful. It's very unlikely that Jedo will get lynched today with deadline so close. At the moment its a worthless vote from scum, probably him trying to stay off his partner's wagon (i.e. Shadow) and a town mislynch (Chess? IS?).

[AurorusVox]

@ AV: u mad bro?

Your argument is compelling.

[AurorusVox]

Is IS at L-1?

[AurorusVox]

If he's not at L-1 why is NC demanding a claim?

Hook of Suspicion: NC

[AurorusVox]

Um. Didn't you accuse Umbrage and NC of bussing IS? So how can they be trying to get one of Jedo/Smar/Shadow lynched? Not sure I can agree with your crooked logic, there.

[AurorusVox]

That's clarified it a little, thanks. I'll stew on this because I still think Shadow is scummy. Is it possible to replace IS with Shadow and instead of seeing them as bussing, seeing them as clamouring for a mislynch? Though that doesn't fit too well with the timeline you've constructed. Hmm.

Also, would it be fair to say that in your opinion, NC is only scummy by association? His shift in participation could easily be IRL related.

---

NC: why is Jedo understandable over the others you mentioned? Also are you seriously trying to get another claim prematurely? If neither Chess nor Shadow are scum (I assume you at least think Shadow is town), we already have (a) a claimed VT, and (b) an outed PR. All this near-lynch hopping sure looks like scum manipulation to out as many claims as possible.

[AurorusVox]

This is a dumb end to the day, for the record. We've had two claims and we're going to kill a third? Bad policy, town. We should have just killed one of the people who already claimed. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

Tell me about it. I'm gonna have a quick look to see if any one person has been on each of the Shadow-Chess-IS wagons. Voting chart pending...

[AurorusVox]

Okay well, I've just constructed a vote chart and my vote analysis has yielded a result. We've definitely caught one scum here.

I'll share the chart so you can see exactly what I'm talking about: click

Scroll across so that you can see the extra information and Doombunny's column at the same time. Notice that as soon as Shadow claims, Doom votes Chess. Soon after Chess claims, Doom unvotes. He later revotes Chess but then soon after hops on the Internet Stranger wagon, putting him at L-2. This is by far the most opportunistic claim hunting behaviour out of all the votes that have gone through.

Others have jumped Shadow --> Chess (Umbrage and Britstep) after Shadow's claim, and a couple have gone Chess --> Internet Stranger after Chess said he wasn't a VT (Nero Cain, Smargaret and Wraith (with a short spell of Umbrage vote between))

---

With this in mind, in my opinion, Doom is 99% likely scum and Umbrage is one of his buddies. This should give those who think IS is scum pause; I have no doubt his wagon is largely scum driven by Doom plus one of { Nero/Smargaret/Wraith } or Shadow.* Umbrage has stayed off it since he doesn't need to hitch a ride - in fact, notice Umbrage flip flopping on whether he supports an IS lynch or not, he was clearly deciding whether his vote was necessary or not.

*There's still a chance that scum took a risky near-bus distancing gambit with the earlier votes on Shadow. In fact, considering that his wagon disintegrated so quickly after the claim - and considering Doom and Umbrage were the first two to unvote - I'm definitely not discounting the possibility of a Doom-Umbrage-Shadow team. It actually looks quite feasible.

[AurorusVox]

EBWOP: Oh yeah, also, where you see a vote is greyed out, it's because the person forgot to unvote so it didn't count. Just in case you were wondering..

[AurorusVox]

I claimed
not a vt
adjfioadsjfiojadfja
jesus H CHRIST

^most explicit here

Not exactly "soft" though

[AurorusVox]

Has everyone fingered Umbrage at this point? IS, CK? Everyone has been like "Well, I think X person is scum... and this is more prevalent than Umbrage over here, he can be dealt with tomorrow!"

More people have fingered you, in fact.

But I like how you're trying to distance from him at a point when its far too late to actually get Umbrage lynched. Where were you when I was asking those who supported his lynch to hop on his wagon a few days ago?

[AurorusVox]

Shiver me timbers, this be where I stand, yarr:

vote: doombunny9

I don't think you can get more damning evidence than Doom's voting shenanigans. In my eyes he's definitely scum.

---

Umbrage's play is just as stinky as it was yesterday, and I don't like the tone of his opening post - he seems to know that Jedo was the scumkill and Snake was killed by something else, with his claim that Jedo's death was a frame (maybe it was just you killing someone who was after your lynching, eh?)

In fact, I was worried I didn't get this post our before day ended yesterday (the topic literally got locked as I was about to post it), but hurrah, I can make it now...

And do show where I've changed my opinion of IS. This is what I'm talking about, lots of bark, but no bite.

Just so you know, I will vote IS or whoever to get a lynch before the day is out.

Honestly, I can't fully support an IS wagon.

As said, I will switch to IS if it comes to it

I've got a bad feeling about this lynch.

Coming after he said ShadowTown should not have hammered Chess if he didn't think Chess was scum, his vote on IS and his dancing around looks highly suspect.

Umbrage, if Shadow is "still" a good lynch today that implies he was a good lynch in your opinion yesterday. Where was your vote as we got closer to deadline? Why did you wuss out with a vote on townJedo then? And how do you answer your vote on IS when its pretty clear you "had a bad feeling" about it being a mislynch? I will happily lynch Umbrage today but he's been demoted to #2 obvscum behind Doom for now.

---

Weak doctor in the wiki
Assuming Jedo was the NK, and then further discounting the potential for multiple killing roles and presuming that Snake died from his protect (all of which is a very dangerous assumption to make, but let's run with it anyway), I think there was definitely one obvious doc protect last night, and it isn't Umbrage, Doom, or Shadow. I think the obvious doc protect was none other than the soft-claimed PR Chesskid. I'd compromise on his lynch for caution sake if for some reason people are against a Doom or an Umbrage lynch.

[AurorusVox]

NC

: you mean "Umbrage", not "Wraith" in that post, right?

Wraith

: regarding your doc protect speculation, I think Chess makes the obvious protect given SP's late replacing in. In this post, he shows that he doesn't think there's enough to say that Chess is mafia yet, and with Chess' PR claim, it seems a worthwhile place to put his protection. NC is right tho - we can probably find out by tonight's kill total whether its a second killer or a doctor's weakness (unless, of course, Chess is an SK who killed one of Snake or Jedo, which would totally fuck things up lol)

Prana

: just guessing but could it be the Superbowl?

Oh joy, Umbrage has given me lots of points to disprove one by one. Incoming!

[AurorusVox]

1. I NEVER changed my read on IS. I said I would hammer him to avoid a no-lynch, and I stand by that. A lynch of town is better than a no-lynch.

If Shadow was likelier scum over IS, you could have voted him and had him lynched yesterday. At one point the wagons could have been equal if everyone stopped

saying

they'd vote for Shadow and actually did it. But you danced around saying you did, no you didn't, oh but you did, support IS's lynching. Because having a claimed VT or your buddy left alive was good for you. (note: the weak doc death has made me rethink Chess as potential scum, relegating Shadow to possibly town after all. I

could

see Chess being third party with a Doom-Umbrage-Shadow scumteam but I think that'll become clearer after tonight...)

2. I was trying to lynch Jedo, why would I NK him? I know, I know, WIFOM, but all NK speculation is WIFOM, including your argument that I killed Jedo because he wanted me dead.

I only speculated on that because you'd pre-empted the argument by saying it was a frame. You rushed to get that out there, and it looked suspect. You would probably NK him because you saw from yesterday how small a chance you had of getting him lynched. Maybe you thought he was a PR, who knows. If someone had really wanted to frame you they'd have killed ME, but YOU as scum probably knew that would lead right back to you, and so you went for the next best thing. Shame you played your hand too early though. NK speculation is all WIFOM and I argue myself in circles about it, but you coming out all guns blazing about how it was a frame has helped clear most of the fog away.

3. I DON'T know that Jedo was the NK. If a weak doctor is what I thought it was, then it was likely SP wasn't killed intentionally. Therefore, Jedo was MOST LIKELY the NK.

So your read on Chess moving from Scum to Town was because...?

4. If ShadowTown hammered IS, he would probably be lynched today. Thus, if he thought IS was town, the result would likely be two dead townies. I can understand his hesitation. I'm not saying I agree, but I can understand.

"I don't agree" - what is this? You said that you think ScumShadow wouldn't have hammered. You also said TownShadow not hammering is "perfectly understandable." So it must be null. But you also said this:

IT IS NOT SCUMMY IF SHADOW DOESN'T HAMMER. IT IS IN HIS BEST INTERESTS AS TOWN FOR HIM TO NOT HAMMER, UNLESS HE TRULY BELIEVES CK3 IS SCUM.

Sounds like you agree that the best town thing to do is

not

hammer someone he thinks is town (which is what you did), AND you're also ignoring it was the best thing for scum-Shadow to do as well. You're wriggling but I won't let go.

5. I voted for Jedo because he looked the scummiest. Simple. I already said I would hammer whoever to get a lynch, so it wasn't a problem. I also wanted to see how you all reacted to a vote on Jedo.

You...what? You're drawing AV-Jedo scum connections? How did that go for you? ALSO, I still don't understand why you didn't pledge allegiance to the Shadow wagon when you've thought he was scum pretty much all game. You instead made sure to STAY OFF it and get on Jedo (?!) and IS's instead.

@ everyone: AV's been on me the whole game. Now, he's using a WIFOMy excuse to continue a wagon that has no merit.

My case on you is plenty more than the NK. Keep ignoring it and it might go away. Well, or you will. One way or the other.

Doombunny9 is likely his buddy, he's trying to throw in a little distancing with bogus vote analysis.

Lololol. The votes aren't fabricated. Tell me how its bogus? Doom has leapt off of claimants and onto new wagons every time. He was the first off of Shadow when he claimed VT, and you were off shortly after. That was a close one, eh, your buddy/the claimed VT almost getting lynched? Then with Chess he was the first to unvote there too. You later followed him, and surprise surprise, eventually ended up on IS together.

------

Doom:
-I guess "as soon as" is hyperbole. It was within about 15 posts though, and it WAS the first to jump ship.
-Chess claimed "not VT" - are you claiming ignorance of that?
-Why did you stop thinking Shadow was scum? What was wrong with his lynch instead of IS's at the end of the day?

[AurorusVox]

I did explain them, Smargaret. Doom unvotes Shadow when he claims to keep him alive (there is motivation for keeping both ScumShadow and VTShadow alive); and then once the claim on Chesskid is achieved, the vote shifts elsewhere. If anyone was feeling out the town, it's Doom, hunting for claims. Not to mention his lapdog Umbrage has followed him every step of the way. Also, hold up, did you just say I'm scummy for implying SP'd death implies Chess is scum - and then vote him for that very reason?

Wraith is confirmed town. He waved at me last night, it was his one-shot power.

[AurorusVox]

You still haven't shown where it said I supported IS' lynch. In fact, I was pretty much the ONLY person against it. I'm practically confirmed town. You are grasping at straws, and I think you know it.

HILARIOUS. "Practically confirmed town" my ass. Don't try and tell me that not supporting an IS lynch proves you're town when I tried my hardest to convince you NOT TO VOTE FOR HIM due to the ramifications of my vote analysis (more on that later) and you still voted for him. Is this bullshit because we're onto your buddy and you're trying to get lynched in his place? What, is he a big scary mafia PR and you're a lowly goon? You can go tomorrow pal.

Jedo's flip. But then, the doc would be most likely to protect CK3, so... I need some time to think this through.

That was my point. Funny how you didn't find the thing that pointed to one of your top scum picks being implicated. Because you don't really care for scumhunting, you only care for securing mislynches.

Uh... no. Doesn't say that. I said it was in HIS best interests to not hammer. He was being accused of being buddies with CK3. Basically, no matter CK3's flip, he would have accused of being scum. He made a good decision, and this case is COMPLETELY different.

So if I'd accused you of being IS' buddy, you'd have been in the same situation? Funny, because I believe Wraith accused you and IS of being buddies. Huh, what a coincidence.

Again, I never said I was drawing connections between the two of you. I was testing EVERYONE'S reactions. And I WAS on Shadow's wagon until a CK3 wagon started forming. And I was NEVER on IS' case. Do your research.

You said you found him scummy a couple of times, then you felt it in your gut he was town. But still you didn't vote for Shadow, your scumpick, as the deadline drew near, when it mattered.

Please. You haven't formed one point against me that I haven't disproved.

I've formed plenty, you just haven't read them.

FACT: Even if those events were related in some way, that does not necessarily imply a scummy motive. You have to SHOW a motive. Sound familiar?

FACT: You're parrotting Smargaret here, even though I've SHOWN the motive. Here it is in nicely laid out format (god forbid you'd have to do some thinking for yourself):

(a) Shifting off of Shadow's wagon was keeping the claimed VT or scumbuddy alive, both of which are good for scum.
(b) Shifting off of Chess identifies a PR for NK'ing or RB'ing; besides, why waste a lynch on a VI when you can...
(c) ...try to out another claim by waggoning on someone else and having them mislynched instead, especially considering they're a vocal opponent of someone who could be a scumbuddy.

[AurorusVox]

Umbrage

Oh yes, the vote analysis that told you to vote for a player that nobody else suspected just as the day was about to end. Honestly, and you said I was bad for voting Jedo.

More proof you're not reading. I never voted for Doom until today. Get your facts straight scum.

This is absolute trash. WAH I DIDN'T GET THE ANSWER I WANTED SO I'M JUST GOING TO THROW WIFOM AROUND AND HOPE SOME IDIOT BUYS IT!11 Please.

Look, there's a lot of things for CK3 being scum, and a lot of things for him being town. I want to look at other players now. Namely you.

Disprove me. Don't just call it trash.

Did Wraith ever say HAMMER INTERNET STRANGER NOW BECAUSE HE'S YOUR BUDDY? Don't think so.

My point stands. You were accused of being his buddy.

Yes, WITH HINDSIGHT, I should've gone for the lynch when I had the chance. But we still had plenty of time left in the day. How was I supposed to know the town would switch onto IS?

What the actual fuck? At the end of the day we had time to organise a lynch on shadow and you fucked around with voting Jedo and eventually IS. You could easily have voted Shadow at any point during this time to try to get him lynched.

I've responded to every thing you've said that isn't total shit.

Wrong.

So, he doesn't want to lynch an outed VT, OR an outed PR? How the hell does that make sense?

By the way, all of these things are tells that should've been obvious without vote analysis. In other words, since you didn't point these out before, there was nothing scummy about doombunny9's ACTIONS, just the TIMING of his actions in hindsight. Which takes you right back to my earlier argument: vote analysis means WHATEVER YOU WANT IT TO MEAN.

They become more obvious when it's all arranged in a chart that points it out. Not lynching the VT is good; having an RB and not lynching the PR-VI is also good (notice Chess said he got nothing last night); scum are sitting very pretty atm, thanks to you and Doom.

Doombunny9

-As I've stated numerous times before, I disagree with the "lynch all VT's" stance. And you say shadow is my scumbuddy...Yet I'm fishing for his role? Huh?

It's not and AND case, it's an OR case. Either you were keeping the VT alive OR you were keeping the scumbuddy alive.

-I'm fishing for chess's role now? Nero was gone for most of the time prior to my vote and smar wasn't pushing particularly hard (If at all). If you think I was trying to further a chess wagon because thesae two were on it then you're crazy.

My guess is Chess was an easy place to plump your vote (you can always pass it off as a PL). Maybe at the start you didn't aim to get role info out of him, but later on, once that information did come, and it was obvious he wasn't getting lynched, you moved on.

-I had and still have a scumread on shadow. The reason I voted IS over shadow was that shadow didn't have as many votes on him at the time and because I had a larger scumread on IS

Would you lynch Shadow today?

You're hinging you're vote on something that can easily mislead you and are reaching too far...

Hmm, maybe you're right, maybe I've been blinkered by the charts. But your vote-play fits perfectly to a scum agenda.

Let's try this a different way, then. What do you think of Umbrage?

---

There is the option that Wraith is telling the truth but AV is scum. The reason I say this is b/c for some reason Wraith thinks Snake might have protected AV.

He changed his mind about that when I mentioned Chess' softclaim.

------

Vox: When you say Wraith waved at you last night, what does that mean? This isn't a role I'm familiar with.

I think it's called a friendly neighbour. All I was told is that Wraith waved at me, and that he's town.

[AurorusVox]

I don't care if you actually voted him, you said you were 99% sure he was scum. Sorry, but you can't just say OH WELL I NEVER VOTES HIM and have your attack magically disappear.

It does matter because the point is that you were accusing me of not voting for Shadow at teh end of the day, which is incorrect.

Just to be clear, you argument is that since I didn't immediately start wagoning chess, I've flipped my read on him? I've given you an answer to that.

No, I won't restate my argument. Go back and read it. I've had enough of you now.

You can't just say the point stands in the face of evidence to the contrary and have people take you seriously.

This is exactly what you're doing, simply saying something is wrong because you don't like it.

Because I had already SAID I would hammer at deadline, which you would've seen if you had been reading properly.

I know you said that but if Shadow did the right thing by not hammering someone who was accused of being his buddy, you must have done the wrong thing by hammering someone who was accused of being your buddy.

What game are you playing? Because in this one, THERE WAS NO FUCKING TIME. Do you REALLY think I could've gotten Shadow lynched in the few days remaining? I explained why the IS lynch was a bad idea, something I don't remember you doing.

Fuck me and you accuse me of not reading? I explained point by point why Shadow was a better lynch AND proved that IS lynch was scum motivated. So wait you had enough time to start a brand new wagon on Jedo but not enough time to organise a wagon on Shadow? Bullshit.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN THE GREAT AURORUSVOX HAS SPOKEN AND DECLARED MY ARGUMENT WRONG THEREFORE IT MUST BE WRONG BECAUSE THE GREAT AURORUSVOX KNOWS ALL

This is all you've been doing all game.

Honestly. And you accused me of not reading. See, the difference between you and me is that I put CONTENT in my posts. I don't just dismiss things like this. I PROVE MY POINTS. THIS IS SOMETHING YOU DO IN MAFIA.

LMFAO you and content don't mix pal. Remember when I made lots of posts that you simply ignored and didn't read? Yeah I remember that.

And what, we just planned this out? That implies we have the power to pretty much just choose who gets wagoned and lynched, which is beyond stupid.

No it happened and you didn't try to stop it happening in fact you encouraged it. Luckily for you it went your way. Unluckily I caught you.

Umbrage has done everything that Doom has done with the voting pattern, and plus he is scummier overall and outside of this point.

Unvote
Vote: Umbrage

[AurorusVox]

I'll still lynch Doom but Umbrage is like a scummier version of Doom, so until you need be

[AurorusVox]

*need me, I'll be keeping my vote

I tried to delete "be" and it posted the message before I wanted it to my laptop is falling apart

[AurorusVox]

No, I just said that it was hypocritical of you to attack me for going after Jedo.

They're not the same because you voted for Jedo and avoided voting for Shadow; whilst I kept my vote on a realistic lynch.

Blah blah

IF I DID EVERYTHING DOOMBUNNY9 HAS DONE THEN YOU WOULD HAVE SAID SO THE LAST DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At the time I did the voting analysis you hadn't yet voted for IS, so no, I didn't say it yesterday because the thread was closed.
I didn't say it today because I wanted to pressure Doom on it. Not to mention his voting pattern is worse than yours.
But you've shadowed him AND you're scummier in general. It's this last bit that I'm referring to when I say you're "worse."
His votes are worse, but you're worse overall.

[AurorusVox]

EBWOP: Because I know Umbrage won't read between the lines so I'll need to make this very clear.

His votes are worse because he did it first and foremost every time, and because you waited longer especially with IS.
But who you voted for and in what general timeframe is still the same.

[AurorusVox]

Oh, so his voting pattern is worse, but I'm still scummier? And my voting pattern was the same as his? Yeah, I see how that makes sense.

So your 99% read is worthless now? If the vote analysis is worthless, why do you still suspect Doom?

Notice, town, how he leaps on any excuse to revote me. More evidence that AV and Doom are the scum.

@ AV: Keep trying, scum. Or don't. Doesn't matter to me, I caught you.

You're so scummy that you transcend voting pattern analysis.
He's still 99% likely scum. Why does you doing it make it less scummy? It makes it more scummy.
I don't need "any" excuse. I have reasons. About six million of them.

If you think Doom is scum, put your vote where your mouth is. I've voted him, I'm happy to see him hang. You're all hot air - "Oh Doom is scum, waa waa, but I won't vote him, no, cos then he might get lynched and I don't want my buddy to die"

@Chess: we can lynch Doom after we've lynched Umbrage. A Doom flip doesn't tell you who's bussing. Umbrage's scumflip will, though (hint: it's Umbrage). That said, I still support a Doom lynch. Umbrage reacting badly to this pressure is too hilarious to miss, though, so I'll keep my vote here for now.

Shadow, what's your take on Doom?

[AurorusVox]

He waved at me. He's a "Friendly Neighbour."

Though Umbrage believing the Wraith claim is funny since he's sure I'm scum. More proof that Umbrage only cares about mislynches, not scumhunting.

[AurorusVox]

@ Shadow: It's scummy because it was the first thing you said. Your main concern was "who are the scum" or "what are people saying to me", it was "I didn't do the NKs". Nobody was drawing connections between you and the NKs. Unprompted denial is distancing.

Wait. Wasn't this exactly what you did with the "I've been framed" bullshit?

@ AV: What the hell is this? I'm scum unless I vote Doom? Seems to ring a bell.... OH YES, that's what IS said to Shadow! My answer is the same as his: NO.

That wasn't what I said. I said if you're sure he's scum why are you afraid to vote for him? Are you categorically refusing to vote for someone you think is scum? Jeee, what a stinky scumbag you are.

[AurorusVox]

Umbrage and Doom are bussing their buddy? Possibly.
Umbrage is bussing his buddy, Doom is innocent? Potentially.
Umbrage is trying to get NC mislynched? Probably.

Nero's lynch is looking the same as IS's - he's aggressive and people aren't reacting favourably to it. He's definitely lashing out (flailing, perhaps?) but with obvScum Umbrage hopping on his wagon I'm not too sure he's scum. Of course, if he is Umbrage's buddy this is exactly what he'd want me to think. I'll have to read his ISO to see.

Doom's response to my voting pattern accusations have actually been pretty satisfying. Maybe he's just been anti-town (fmpov) rather than scummy. The problem is that they mesh so well...suffice it to say that he's definitely lower on my preferred lynch chain than Umbrage now, but we'll see as the day progresses.

What I don't really like is the lynch preference order - two of the people I suspect of being his buddies are scummy enough to be included (and thus distanced) but not scummy enough to get voted and lynched by him at the moment. The saving grace is his case against Nero and placing him at #1 which doesn't feel like fake distancing, but actual scumhunting. I don't think Doom and NC are scumbuddies together. If NC flipped scum, I'd still find Umbrage scummy; but atm, not Doom.

Actually Doom, another question: Is Chess high on that list because of the weak-doc death or separate from that?

Wraith, you recently unvoted Nero. What was it that you saw that made you unvote?

[AurorusVox]

The case on Doombunny is the voting pattern analysis that I've posted a number of times now. Since I know you're town I'll say it one more time:

His voting pattern mirrors what I believe the optimum scum manoeuvres would be. He voted Shadow til he claimed VT, then shifted to Chess until he claimed. Probably after he saw he couldn't get the PR lynched, he moved to another wagon. The movement on votes coinciding with claims taken objectively like that looks scummy because it looked like he was voting people to out their roles and then shifting tracks when that had been achieved.

If there's a Shadow-Doom link, he unvoted his buddy (along with Umbrage) at a crucial moment. Also he finally settled on IS, a vocal opponent of Shadow.

[AurorusVox]

Umbrage can you explain the reasoning behind the mutually exclusive pairings?

Also I like the quote in your sig

[AurorusVox]

Aaah. I understand, sorry, I thought you were saying if I was scum NC was town and if Chess was scum Shadow was town and vice versa.

Umbrage, you've unequivocally stated that you won't vote Doom today. Why is this, if you think he's scum?
I'm not demanding you vote him or saying you'd be scum for not doing it in black and white terms, but I do think it's

scummy

that you're calling him scum but you're not

willing

to vote him.

[AurorusVox]

My big contribution is so far is that I pointed out, and would like to point out again that no one has really taken a good look at the IS lynch. I wanted to see if anyone would take that and run with it, or go back and say "Hey yeah, this fits in with such and such", etc. So;

Funny that I'm scummy for steering clear of IS' lynch, when the reason I steered clear of it was because I

had

taken a good look at the IS lynch (/wagon) and determined that it fits in with a Doom-Umbrage-(Shadow?) scumteam - the very thing you were hoping people would have done. There's a serious hole in your logic somewhere.

@Nero I don't see why Prana would, but @everyone else it's not like the question has a downside, is it?

[AurorusVox]

First off, I know steering clear meant staying off the wagon. I stayed off the wagon because I'd analysed it. You said you were disappointed no one had analysed it and then criticised me for an action that was the result of me analysing the wagon.


As to your point that all three scum wouldn't be on the wagon:

-Umbrage was wriggling, trying to stay off it, and when he did vote, he made it clear that he didn't support the lynch, so that paints him as the "good guy" for making sure a lynch occurred even though it was on a townie. If he could have avoided it I'm sure he would have. But there was pressure for him to follow through his promises.

-I've been teetering on whether one of you or Doom are town, so it might not have been gung-ho scumteam gogo.

-That said, it's just as stupid to just assume scum didn't need all their votes on, as it is to assume they didn't - of the five people not voting IS, three had rejected the wagon (me, Chess, Snake), and IS obviously wasn't going to self-hammer. I'll have to go back but I think Britstep said he'd hammer whoever, despite thinking IS was town (is that right?).

-With this in mind, from my point of the scumteam being Um-Doom-Shadow; you had to stay on IS from earlier; with only Britstep as the additional person willing to vote for the lynch, at least

one

of Doom and Umbrage had to get on the wagon; perhaps Doom got on when he did and then had to stay there because at the time it wasn't certain you had the full support from townies to achieve it without the full scumteam; and sure, Umbrage

could

have stayed off and risked Britstep getting on board, but was under pressure to put a vote on as deadline drew nearer due to his earlier promises.

-In the end, it's not stupid when the way the game panned out, it could have been necessary or seemed necessary for all three scum to be on the wagon. Precluding that possibility makes it look like you're trying to get some town cred for a buddy if two of you flip scum that were on that wagon, hoping we'll all think "oh, no, they won't ALL have been on there."


Now, just so there's no misunderstanding. I'm not saying I 100% believe that there is an Um-Doom-Shadow scumteam. I was pretty convinced yesterday, and I'm still suspicious of you in that particular order. The weak-doc death and Doom's play today has shaken me up a bit, I admit, BUT, I refuse to rule the possibility out just because you all voted the same person, who happened to have been on your case all game.

[AurorusVox]

Hold on a second... There's a contradiction here. You first started pointing me out as scummy when you made the voting analysis... Which was well after the wagon formed. You're now saying you avoided the IS wagon because Umbrage and I were on it but I wasn't even one of your scumpicks when it was forming. Explain.

I wanted Umbrage or Shadow lynched yesterday, which was the reason for me not looking at IS for most of the day. But when it drew closer to deadline, I did my voting analysis to see if the IS wagon had merit and deserved my vote. When I had done so, I made sure to "steer clear" of the wagon AND tried to convince people to not follow it through. I had limited success.

[AurorusVox]

I'm more sure of my vote than ever. I could go through and point a couple of holes in Umbrage's argument but I think we all know how that would end up.

[AurorusVox]

Not can't. I wasn't going to because engaging with you only clogs the thread. But if you insist...

I never said AV was scummy because he said the same thing as IS.

Loliar. You said "If you find IS scummy you have to find AV scummy" i.e. if IS is scummy then I am scummy

because I said the same thing

according to you.

They were a last ditch attempt to stop the IS bandwagon by pointing out that AV did everything IS did and more.

Please. I should NOT have voted on my own, because I never wanted that stupid fucking lynch to happen in the first place!

Then why not get on the Shadow wagon earlier? That was the route to preventing IS' lynch, not a useless vote on Jedo. You only said you disliked the wagon WHILST at the same time supporting it "if need be." You didn't try to stop the wagon, you just tried to stay off it.

Nightkill speculation is always WIFOM. The difference between you and bristep is that I find you scummy IN THE ACTUAL THREAD. Right now you're clinging to the excuse of "why would I kill Jedo?" and it makes me think that maybe you did kill Jedo, just to use that excuse today. You see? WIFOM.

Didn't you do exactly the same thing?

[AurorusVox]

Except

I

didn't find IS scummy! The rest of the town did!

"IS did X"
"IS is scummy"
"AV = IS"

Basic algebra says you're bullshitting. It doesn't matter what you thought. You're still saying I should be considered scummy for doing what IS did if IS was considered scummy.

The Shadow wagon had come and gone. It didn't matter who I voted, everyone was all "WAH WAH INTERNET IS SCUM". Curiously enough, I notice you weren't on the IS wagon, but you never really spoke out against it either. Now THAT is trying to stay off a wagon while making sure it goes through.

It hadn't, it still had a chance if people pulled their finger out and actually voted him.
AND WHAT IS THIS MISREP?* I made my voting analysis and said I thought the wagon was on a TOWNIE and that it was SCUM DRIVEN and convinced SNAKE to LEAVE THE WAGON. THAT IS ME SPEAKING OUT ABOUT IT. THAT IS ME TRYING TO STOP IT GOING THROUGH.

Stop the bullshit now.

I've always said NK speculation is WIFOM. I can only assume you're talking about how I said you framed me. That wasn't speculation. That was me expecting you to do something you would do if you were scum, and you doing it.

You were speculating what the NK was about. It's the same.

inb4misrep
inb4hypocrite

*Saying inb4 doesn't mean you didn't do it.

[AurorusVox]

Mod: I'm gonna be slightly V/LA til the 29th January

[AurorusVox]

Shit. I had a whole post. Had to edit it to deal with the explosion of posts in my preview box. I do not cc watcher, btw.

---

In light of that information, IFF (if and only if) it's legit, Chess' Umbragevote antics look like they could have been bussing. Umbrage clearly is scum, his play has been scummy all over the place, yet Chess tried to pass it off as a vote on a townie.

IFF

its legit, Chess is potentially trying to make up for not pushing scUmbrage earlier in the game. Gut reaction also says Britstep is a likely buddy with his "2 person" fluff, though it runs counter to my reads of him for most of the game to this point.

Vote: Umbrage

(L-1)

I am confident this lynch is hitting scum, and I would have done this even without the watcher report.

---

Britstep, your recent unvote displays a total lack of logic. If you think Umbrage is a target for quicklynching (i.e. town) why were you worried about having Shadow at L-2? I think you've realised your buddy is going down and are now considering the best time to hop on his wagon for the bus. I repeat, your unvote goes against your concerns that Umbrage is a mislynch target for scum; scum can't mislynch both.

[AurorusVox]

Could there have been an SK/vig that got RB'd last night?

FHDUIHFUHBGFDSZ

I CANT POST STOP PREVIEWING ME RRAAAAGGGEEE

[AurorusVox]

LolChess I'd love to see you hammer Shadow seeing as he's at L-3 /whistles

[AurorusVox]

I WILL HAMMER YOU IF YOU DON'T SHUT UP

^was referring to this actually

You post so much I couldn't get it out

[AurorusVox]

It came immediately after Shadow asked you to hammer Umbrage, you said "I WILL HAMMER YOU IF YOU DON'T SHUT UP" - why was the you directed at Umbrage in response to Shadow? HMMMM? SCUMSLIP?!*

*but not really more like typing fail

[AurorusVox]

I understand.

In other news, we need Doom in here to hammer Umbrage.

---

OH WAIT GO ON CHESS BUS YOUR BUDDY DO IT WE WON'T NOTICE ITS A BUS AT ALL

[AurorusVox]

Britstep I see you down there, dyu have anything to say? Or are you being ninja'd too?

[AurorusVox]

I'd also be down for a Chess lynch because he's too cowardly to bus. Actually, Chess softclaimed PR so I'm thinking he might be a scumPR :\ decisions, decisions...also it's worth noting Chess

wasn't

traced to the kill so he would fit as a scumPR, whilst Umbrage would be the goon.

I think I'm like one of the last unclaimeds, and

I

don't claim vig, so unless Umbrage claims it to save his buddy, we've got Chess-scum pinned. The ONLY concern is a blocked SK (who obviously won't be claiming) but that would be

very unlucky

on our part.

[AurorusVox]

"WHO IS ONLINE
Users browsing this forum: AurorusVox, bristep123, chesskid3, Shadow1psc, smargaret, Umbrage"

We're just missing Doom </3

[AurorusVox]

cc Jesus
[/jk]

[AurorusVox]

FINALLY

We get to lynch scum. This must have been the quickest wagon on someone its taken the longest time to convince y'all to lynch.

[AurorusVox]

There's no character here. I've gotten the scumlynch I've been after since D1.

[AurorusVox]

Can we just lynch Chess now as well instead of waiting til tomorrow?

[AurorusVox]

Rudin's Law: In a crisis that forces a choice to be made among alternative courses of action, people tend to choose the worst possible course.

That's all I could find...

Wait...is that a scumclaim Smargaret?

[AurorusVox]

Vote: Chesskid3

[AurorusVox]

unless AV is claiming power, (or you are Bristep), we are severely underpowered town. Maybe Umbrage sent the kill because he was the most suspected anyway.

Pirate Paul Birchall, Bulletproof townie here. I assume 3-PR scumteam based on the overwhelming number of town PRs and Umbrage being traced to the kill.

Buhbye scumkid3

[AurorusVox]

NEVER!

[AurorusVox]

YOU AND SHADOW WERE SCUM TOGETHER? WHAT?!

[AurorusVox]

Fffffuuuu-

My posts are being posted back in time. I am confuse

[AurorusVox]

hehehe

you tricked me watcher scum!

[AurorusVox]

Oh Chess give me some credit, Christ.

[AurorusVox]

Oh Chess give me some credit, Christ.

CREDIT FOR WHAT?

I mean, do you really think I'm an idiot who needs telling reads >>> suspicious night actions?

[AurorusVox]

Oh Chess give me some credit, Christ.

CREDIT FOR WHAT?

YOU EVEN MISSLYNCHED OBVTOWN NC
YOU DERPING DERP

Hey I wasn't on any mislynch wagons all game >:)

[AurorusVox]

Oh Chess give me some credit, Christ.

CREDIT FOR WHAT?

YOU EVEN MISSLYNCHED OBVTOWN NC
YOU DERPING DERP

Hey I wasn't on any mislynch wagons all game >:)

YOU WERE ON MINE
DERP

Oh yeah

Oh Chess give me some credit, Christ.

CREDIT FOR WHAT?

I mean, do you really think I'm an idiot who needs telling reads >>> suspicious night actions?

so what happened to your townread on me?

Oh I decided to ignore it to get the gamewinning hammer

[AurorusVox]

Oh hey look at that, Pirate Paul Burchill, Mutineer Goon!

UMBRAGE <333333333333333333333333333333
SMARGARET <333333333333333333333333333333

------

^that's why I said give me some credit. TownAV wouldn't have hammered you like that. Come on. :p

[AurorusVox]

THIS GAME WAS SO MUCH FUN!!

Incoming brief pbpa

Prana, do you do vidjas for all your games? I thought they were a very nice touch! :p

Britstep, you started off very well, removing much suspicion from Nexus. You let it slip badly towards the end, though, at least imo.
Chess, oh Chess, you drew our RB every night so good play on the fake claim. If you HAD been a PR that would have been badthings, though. Ah, the thing about Chess is his gut-reads are usually pretty hot, but no one listens to him :\
Doom, see, I wasn't lying about your awful voting pattern. The D1 shenanigans had us set up incredibly well for narrowing future PR targets. With Britstep confirmed VT, we only had to choose between Doom and NC (who got lynched in my absence before he had a chance to claim...lol) to pick off the last one.
IS, I really don't understand why you were lynched D1. As town I'd have let you stay :\
Jedo played very well, hence the first NK. Sorry buddy.
Nero, your wagon was all sorts of hilarity for me to watch. I'm not sure there was much you could have done to stop it but it was primarily town driven. Probably for the same reasons as IS' wagon.
Shadow, after you claimed I was only ever interested in keeping you alive. I know I moaned that you weren't getting lynched but you were probably a liability to the town purely on the basis of being a claimed VT. You weren't that scummy as the day went on either.
Snake, you didn't get much time in the game, I presume you targeted me? [Liar's play was awesome whilst he was still here, shame he left]
Wraith was pretty obvTown, and then confirmed Town. It didn't really matter that you used it on me as I was going to out it regardless, but you had to die the next day. Thanks for thinking I was town though >:)

---

Umbrage, my bussing buddy <3 Guys, was Umbrage as scummy as I made out or was it only because I knew he was scum that I nitpicked his posts? :s
Smargaret, my watcher buddy <3 I think your background playstyle was perfectly suited to (a) an unclaimed PR, and (b) in the light of mine and Umbrage's clashes

<3333

[AurorusVox]

RE: D3 bus of Umbrage
~I don't think it would have been our downfall, based purely on if Shadow had been doubted, I'd have hammered Smar and NK'd Chess the next night :p It was risky but I think the benefit was getting Smar some townpoints, and after the quickhammer on NC, Umbrage was looking dead regardless. We also figured if Smar got lynched, Umbrage would get +++townpoints and could have proceeded to lynch me the next day for +++++++town points. We had considered a no-kill with me claiming Bullet Proof, but decided against it because there were potential holes in it, and pushing Chess over confirmed-Umbrage kill trace would have probably gotten Smar lynched. I don't really foresee a D3 that ended in a way other than Umbrage hanging, tbh.

Oh, also, feel free to share the QT from me.

[AurorusVox]

Woah that post got all sorts of messed up. This makes a bit more sense:

RE: D3 bus of Umbrage
~I don't think it would have been our downfall, based purely on if Shadow had been doubted, I'd have hammered Smar and NK'd Chess the next night :p It was risky but I think the benefit was getting Smar some townpoints, and after the quickhammer on NC, Umbrage was looking dead regardless. Pushing Chess over confirmed-Umbrage kill trace would have probably gotten Smar lynched, and I didn't really foresee a D3 that ended in a way other than Umbrage hanging, tbh. Though we also figured if Smar got lynched, Umbrage would get +++townpoints and could have proceeded to lynch me the next day for +++++++town points. Regarding the trouble we got into N3, we had considered a no-kill with me claiming Bullet Proof, but decided against it because there were potential holes in it >:D

[AurorusVox]

Actually I think Chess' spout of posts really screwed us D3. I kept getting ninja'd so I couldn't let Smar know I was on to quickhammer - and by the time I could post he'd voted Umbrage so I had to go with that. There was no way Smar could swap to Chess D3 after his post, and Shadow wasn't going to either (note that I did try to get the wagon onto Chess at the end, but it was too late by then). After the watcher claim we were locked into lynch Umbrage, and I guess in hindsight we could have tried to not open with the claim, but if we hadn't, we would have been on uncertain grounds. I think the fact that we were in control D3, even though it was riskier, made it safer in a perverse way. Also, gambitting hard is always more fun :p

Also I noticed Umbrage had called Chess a VT with his "p" but I was so unsure as to why Chess would have faked being a PR that I assumed he'd forgotten to tell us x_x

[AurorusVox]

I don't think Shadow's

play

was bad, but his vote was pretty much exactly what we were looking for.

[AurorusVox]

Chess didn't claim VT, he softclaimed PR? O_O"

- In hindsight, I guess the bus of Umbrage wasn't strictly

necessary

, but I don't really think we could have gotten Chess lynched that day, and the watcher report allowed us to maximise the positive outcome of him going down. Maybe I'm just confirmation-biased lol :\

I think IF we'd faked watcher on Chess N1, I don't know why the watcher wouldn't have been on Wraith N2, since he was confirmed town. The escape hatch you suggested was a watch on me, but if Umbrage had claimed Wathcer, there's no way he'd watch me, and if Smar had claimed it and not been believed, we'd likely lose both. I dunno - Shadow, Brit, Doom, would you have voted Chess over Umbrage D3?

Also, if we'd NK'd and I'd claimed BP...how do you guys think that would have gone down? :p

[AurorusVox]

I claimed
not a vt

I thought this was a claim...bolstered by:

I got nothing from last night, by the way. :/

>____>"

[AurorusVox]

because doom was as good as scum?
seriously do a VCA, he's in all the scumslots.

Lol this is what I was talking about with my chart...His votes were exactly where I'd have put mine for optimum scum play if I didn't care about looking scummy ._." No one else seemed too fussed for it though >_>"

[AurorusVox]

As scum, the best tactic is agreeing with Chess.
As town, the best tactic is agreeing with Chess.

Discuss.

[AurorusVox]

<3 Umbrage, you wanted constructive criticisms, right? I don't know if I found you scummy because I knew you were scum, but I think some of the points I raised against you were valid (others were stretches on purpose <3) Maybe some townies can enlighten me as to how much I was biased...

I think you should never refuse to defend yourself against someone. Even if its just linking back to previous posts. As both town and scum, I find that a good solid defence works wonders. That's just my playstyle though, so whatever works for you :p

[AurorusVox]

Yeah, but there had to be at least four other people on that to work. I figured you guys would lay off when I, the CONFIRMED TOWN, said "I'm going to lay off NC and concentrate on other suspects instead." In fact, you should have lynched Umbrage in four seconds D3 solely for that hammer. It was scumtastic.

^I thought this too. It's why I was in favour of bussing Umbrage from the start, to at least get some credit from it lol.

Umbrage, imo you're going to have to go down tomorrow after that vote. We can try to win it tomorrow by having Chess lynched for the weakdoc (who was presumably on me?) or having Doom lynched and claiming NC may have had an incriminating track but not wanting to out himself (i.e. he tracked Doom to Jedo or Snake to Doom). But I'm personally gonna have to go full blown Umbrage vote.

I was open to alternatives but they didn't seem likely :p

[AurorusVox]

Keep it! It's awesome <3